Aur Naurnia

culture to Rose and I's childhoods. Maybe more so important to Roads today than it is to me today. However, it is something that we have effectively schooled each other on time and time, and it is something that you, the Virgins, have asked time and time again for us to talk about. So for those reasons, today we are talking about Lord of the Rings, the books, the movies, the cultural phenomenon, the whole extended universe. Because this is like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop

culture today's takes. I am Rose, Damn you your resident full of a tuk, and I am Fran Toronto, your local Galandriel and Uh in the words of a wise man, fly, how the hell are you so so good? So real, so real? As the Black Eyed Peas would say, both real and so real. We have been truly having a black Eyed Peas spring, and I think it's going to roll over into a black Eyed Peas summer and for

sure fall in winter as well. Wait, can we discuss this be has Like all of a sudden, I had a few friends that started listening to it again around the same time that I was revisiting Monkey Business, which, as I've said on the pod before, was one of the first albums I ever purchased with my own money, along with Love Angel Music Baby. And then there was that Black Eyed Peas SNL sketch, and I was like,

there zons happening. Yeah, I think they truly have an unshakable grip on all our necks, and yeah, I love that for them. Pump it is an untouchable bob like as an opener to an album, like it's still like holds all the way up, Like it doesn't even feel dated.

It feels amazing, it feels current. It could be it's yesterday, today, tomorrow, just for context, like we were like in Joshua Tree, like listening to this whole album and then the interlude from My Humps played where did they go Real Surreal? And we were like Stone were like, are they saying so real or are they saying surreal? And it is.

It's a enigma. Also, there was a really great moment at the end of our trip where you asked Justin and I were hugging and just started spontaneously singing, no, lie, no, no, no, it's it's really it's really beautiful. Another standout from that album was the bridge that I completely forgot about of Pump It, where they go diamn, dim damn. I'm not gonna start singing because then you'll start talking about singing. Wait, speaking of singing, I did listen to the New Florence

and the Machine album in preparation for for today. Okay, I'm not I'm not excited to hear your take on it because I feel like it's going to be negative. Are you saying maybe you're projecting because you also did not like the album as much as you would have. No, I do love it, but I know that you hate me and want me to Is that the dynamic? I So here's the thing I've already said before Florence was like I'm an O G Florence stand Um, there was really not a lot to latch onto with this album.

I fell I. I really liked Daffodil, I love um Free is it Free? The one that's kind of like Thumby and quick Free? Free was the last single she released before the album came out. Yeah, Free is my favorite song. But like when Florence arrived on the music scene, she was a novelty and there was nothing that sounded

like her and it was just immediately ingenious. And now I feel like she's made this album three times and I wish that there was something more like the song Free that would have changed her pace or made it seem like more than sensual chamber music for people that used to have tumbler you know what I mean. I see merit in that critique. I'm going to love that. Um. I do think that Florence makes a very specific kind of music. I am very dialed into it and always

love it. And I think there's some really beautiful songs on this album, Like I really loved the singles she put out. UM since the album came out, Dreamgirl Evil is what I've been listening to a lot. I really like Cassandra, I really like Girls Against God. But yeah, I think her last few records, and especially the last one, Highest Hope I, have been a lot quieter and more introspective, and like, I do think there are some bangers on this album. But yes, it's it's a it's very different.

I love it. I love Florence. I love how committed she is to her aesthetic, her sound, to making the kind of music she makes. I will say, and like, I don't think this is a good excuse when you're talking about music, but seeing her live is such a transcendent experience. And I did see her what she was touring Highest Hope UM, and even with a record, and

that is probably my least favorite of her albums. But even still, seeing the songs live, they just become completely transcendent, and she is such a captivating performer and I just love her. I love the album. I will defend her until the end of the yea UM. But I I do agree that you know, there was a couple of years ago, I think after ceremonials, she said that she wanted to make like an electronic dance album, and that

never happened. I think the closest we ever got to it was when she did that song sweet Nothing I love, which I which I love. I do think it might be good for her at some point to do oh like kind of one off experient, a mental album that might sort of like just change things up for her and probably will infuse her music going forward with kind of different vibes. But all that to be said, I

really like Dance Fever. I would love to see her tour this album because I think it would just hearing the songs in that context would bring them even more to life for me than they are now. And it's an album that I certainly will spend a lot more time with and have even since it came out. I've been listening to it a lot um when I was in New York this week. I was listening to a lot when I was walking around Brooklyn, and it's just like really beautiful. I love it, and I will kill

you for not liking. So here's the thing. It's not that I'm even like criticizing her. I mean, okay, I will say for an album called Dance Fever, there were not a lot of dance songs. Okay, there are. It's just it's they're like three first of all, second of all, but like you can you but you slow dance girls, She's no, but fran this is the thing. All you listen to our fucking remixes and not not everything is going to be like I fear out. I love remixes,

but I do not listen to majority remixes. I think that, Honestly, the way I really do feel about Florence is that she was like my like in my the top tier of music artists that I adored for a really long time in my tumbler era. And I think that because she has not changed, but my taste has changed that her music, which is sonically gorgeous and still of its own, kind of just as you said, like unlike anything out there, still is something that I, on a taste level, have

maybe outgrown. But I also feel like music artists, especially women in music like shouldn't have to reinvent themselves over and over again, like they are women like Lana or

even Adele. Honestly, although I do think A Dell's last album was very different, like that can do the same thing over and over again and they'll always have their base, and I think that that is just something that you know, I really honor and you are someone who like your taste level is essentially you know, a pantheon of Caucasian yodelers with lexapro prescriptions that that you idolize. You know, the Fiona Apple, Alanis k Bush, Florence the Machine. There's

one more in there. Taylor doesn't yodel as much. I mean, this is all not untrue, but I do I will take I do take umbrage with the idea that Florence hasn't changed, because I think her songwriting has gotten so much, so much, both sharper and softer, like I think she if you really take the time and really listen, the lyrics are so beautiful and her voice is still just haunting. She is a siren, She is a banshee. She is

the moment for me? Do you did you not that this is a stupid tangent, But did you notice that like in the little like Spotify album art, Florence in the Machine is is is abbreviated to ft Yeah, girl, do you think so? Do you think she knows? Do you think anyone's told her that? Do you think it's so many trans friends? She's like good Judy's with Sean Fay,

Tommy Dorfman. Someone definitely love that your trans mask. Now, Okay, I literally like, how do we become you know, among the echelon of Florence's trans friends, Like, how do we how do we accomplish this? Do you think I don't know? I I have. I have been wondering about this for a while, but I actually don't think I could ever meet her because I'm she is and this is so

gay to say she's too important to me. I Similarly, I would never want to meet a share because like, I don't want Share to like ruin share for me, you know what I mean? Yeah, there are you some idols you just shouldn't meet. Although I have met Gaga and it was a fun interaction. Okay, wait, I didn't even ask you about your New York trip? How did it go? It was um really good to be in New York. It was also weird. It was disgusting the

whole time it was there. It's probably like the most humid weekend of the year, so it was horrible for like looking cute, but it was good. I it weirdly ended up well, Okay, so ap peeling back the Curtain

for All the Virgins. For Christmas, friend got me the very sweet gift of two tickets to see New York City Centers On Corps production of Into the Which is your favorite, it's my It's my time favorite, like tied with Sweeney todd Um, but Into the Woods does kind of like eke out a little bit forward and was incredible. First of all, the tickets were amazing. Thank you so much. I truly it was such a thoughtful gift and such an amazing experience with my with my best friend Ryan.

It was great. The production was great. It was like very simple orchestra was on stage, like very minimal staging. Everyone was incredible. Heather, who originated the role of Aida, and Aida was so fucking good as the Witch. Her last Midnight gave me chills. Um Sarah Borellis, I like, am not a huge Sarah Barella stand. She was so fucking good. Her voice is like butter, her tone is so pure. Everything she does is effortless, and the Baker's wife really is like the sleeper hit role of that show.

I think she has some of the sup rising lee memorable moments of the show. Um Neil Patrick Harris was was really good to the one thing that is bad about this production, and I think it's transferring to Broadway. That's what the best the like Broadway dot com message boards are saying. According to Ryan So, at the end of the show, the most moving song on the show for me is the finale. Children will listen, So the

finale is happening. I'm sobbing, And then like the emotional crux of the finale, the house lights come on and a like community theater group walks out into the aisles to sing the end of the finale song with I haven't never been taken out of a moment so abruptly as the house slights. Not the house lights, that's because yes, it was incredibly jarring. I I went from sobbing to like confused so quickly. It was such a weird choice.

And actually, my my brother had seen the show already and the night before had said to me, there's something that happens in the show that I really didn't like. I'm very interested to hear what your take on it is. I won't spoil it for you, And it was this obviously, it's it just really took you out of the moment um.

It really cut the like effect of the the effectiveness of the emotional core of that song off in in a really unfortunate way and undercut what the cast was doing on stage, and like, you know, like the people from this community theater, they're really going for it, like standing in the aisles, they're like singing along and like pointing and stuff, and it's it was just not good, not right. I hope if it goes to Broadway they

won't do it. I mean, I'm sure it won't because they would have to pay those people and like that just won't happen at every mormants. But yeah, other other than that, it was wonderful. I had a great time. So thank you again. So okay, let's talk about Let's talk about the real show of the week, which was the premiere of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills season twelve. Obviously a premiere episode that was very centered on one

thing that we all knew, what I actually forgot. I was Derek and Pek's house getting broken into and Derek getting held a gunpoint. And honestly, it feels like the rest of the season is going to be around like their PTSD. Yeah, the ramifications, you know, will be felt throughout the rest of the season. The moment that was the most chilling for me was at the end when she was sitting outside alone, going I'm fine fine. People

are still saying that the Burglaries fake. I after seeing this episode, do not believe it, like crying about not being there. Wait, the most horrible and also entertaining moment of the episode was Sutton talking Kyle and being a completeth no other word for it. And that's like at a very exact usage, like a sociopathic level of self involvement, absolutely no empathy. Like it doesn't even matter how it was edited, there's no way for it to have been

edited for it. It was bad. Horrible person, horrible person, great, great reality character. I hate Sutton, and you can and you can be both. You can be both, and actually sometimes they are. They're required to yes, and every every season, I unfortunately have to very toxically rank them. And I really don't know where Sutton's gonna land for me because I hate, hate, hate, hate Sutton, and yet she really

is endlessly entertaining because she's so horrible. Um, I have to say like this, I think to read's thing, I'm like on a horrified to find out that people are like doubted that it was ever real, Like, well, that was the thing everyone was saying when the news broke, because I think because the timing of it, it happened the day before they were supposed to start. But I don't. I just think I could see sudden staging, yes, robbery, but I know I don't. I just don't. That would

never be my immediate reaction. But I don't actually know anybody that that felt that way, So it must be like a lot of online sentiment. But like, I feel like it's reminding me, honestly of Season two, where they're dealing with an extremely real, painful traumatic event that has been reality TV ified, and I'm it's gonna be hard to watch. Yes, I actually on the plane to New York.

I hadn't watched the premier yet, but I was flying Jet Blue there and they had live TV and there was a Beverly Hills marathon happening on, so I tuned. I tuned in for a little bit until my xanex picked in UM and it was season two UM. The episode where they're at Mauriceo's um birthday dinner. They go to Hawaii birthday and Kim misses the plane and then she and her boyfriend show up late, and I just horrible, horrible. Boy was one of Mauricio's golden moments where he was

he literally called her on her bullshit. He was just like, no, like, you were late and this is disrespectful, and I just wanted we need to we need to get him back, We need him back. Show there is there is nothing like like a season of Real Housewives when people are related and there is real family drama. That's why New Jersey is still elite. And I will be watching New Jersey the next time I get the stomach flu um.

I have to say that as far as like um, just to go back to the Sutton thing, I really really really hate Kyle when she is so spineless in an interaction like that, to be kind of unable to really say what's wrong with going with with what's going on? Because if if you, my extremely good friend, acted like that to me, I would I would like slap you. I would say you're you. I'd be like you are lucky. It's wrong with you. I'd be like, you are lucky. There are another people now right now, get out of

my transgender home anyways. I was just like, it's moments like that where I really I just like, have never really loved Kyle as a protagonist for the entire franchise. Um, but I really need her to like grow a spine, because like right now, it's just like not cutting it. She won't, she never will she. Unfortunately, I am back on team Erica. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not proud of this fact. I don't understand you have you have gone on record saying that she's your favorite.

She's no longer my favorite housewife, unfortunately. But I do think that there was a moment of the confessional where she was really trying to evade questions that the producer was asking her, and she was just like they ended up like sharing what the producer was asking her because she was being so indignant. She was like, well fucking duh, like and I just thought that was so iconical. But she was also like dodging questions about the Tom Girardi

of it all and like things being settled. She's so she's I don't she's gonna be my favorite from this season. I think the new villain, whatever her face is the new girl coming in who apparently I heard, is rumored to have once like been somewhat involved with Jeffrey Epstein, like she was the sort of a Galaine. Yeah, I mean, god, truly, I mean, honestly, they probably all have affiliation to Jeffrey Epstein, like, let's to be real, like it's but I don't know.

We'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Um. But I think you all will need to get used to the fact that we will be probably discussing Beverly Hills weekly on the weekly, and maybe we'll do a Housewives episode, because I think that is one of the things that I did pressure you into us. Are you were the kind of thing to push me over the edge to start watching You're you're calling me, I'm calling you no virgins.

It's been so fun engaging with you on Instagram. If you aren't already, please follow our burner Finsta, alt whatever like a virgin for We've been getting suggestions and I mean, not criticism yet, but like I would accept criticism the d M S. I wouldn't necessarily, you know, incorporated into anything I do or say, but I would love to hear what you have to say. How would an ORCS dick even fit in a hobbit. I think Orc dicks

must be really spiky. As someone who has had a lot of Lard of the Rings fan fiction, I have spent a lot of time thinking about the anatomy of the different races of Middle Earth, and and most of my preoccupation is with how would a hobbit hole take the dick of saying elf probable? Yeah, hobbitble multiple meanings, Honey, we honestly need to Every time we like use terms, we need to like explain them. For Phoebe, a hobbit hobbit hole is a double entendre. You do Phoebe knows

about definition? Got it? Okay? Do you really see yourself as a gladiol? Yeah? I mean what else would I what else would I be? What do you see me as? It's a very important but let's start here. Let's start here. Okay. I think you are more of I don't know that you're an elf. Yeah, they're way too graceful. Um, I think hobbit. I'm probably hobbit. I'm anxious. I can't get a lot done. I feel like, uh I I make

a mess of things, but I'm ultimately chaotic good. Yeah, Hobbits get are giving me because of how much they love their things and they love food and revelry. They're giving me very torus energy. So I do think you are a hobbit. The indulgences of Hobbits and their twelve meals that they have a day is very torrey in behavior. Sucking breakfast honestly, I mean, let's take it back to their little hobbit holes full of plants. My hobbit hole is not filled with plants. Okay, so what what what

of the Middle Earthian races do you think? I am well, I was actually going to ask you, Okay, just to answer your question very quickly, I think it's gonna be Wizard. It's gonna be Wizard and Unford the Unfortunately, there are no women in the Lord of the Rings franchise, so I can't assign you like because I was going to say, I was almost going to say I could see myself as a dwarf. But there are witches in the Tolkien universe.

It just they didn't appear. But but um, I was going to ask you growing up, when you were watching these movies or reading the books, did you supplant yourself on any specific character, because I really feel that this is one of those unique entities where I really did not relate to any character same I was. I was an observer. I was very immersed in the world, but

there was no like I'm hermiony there. That's not what the Lord of the Rings was for me, honestly, maybe a testament to like the artifice of relatability and the universal story and how like a lot of Hollywood execs always talk about like you need to be able to see yourself in this character and blah blah blah, and it's like that's actually bullshit, Like a Lord of the Rings had absolutely nothing to do with me. Even the humanity of these characters behind all the fantasy really didn't

resonate with me at all. And yet it's a fucking good story. Yes, well, okay, so I want to know what was your first experience with J. R. Tolkien's creations. You know, my dad Ad was a big C. S. Lewis fan, and then by default our whole family was, and so you know, we grew up with a lot of Narnia things, reading books Narnia are Narnia or the places you'l Gore Um, and so by association C. S.

Lewis was best friends with Tolkien. I think that was something that my dad always talked about, the Witch and the wardrobe boots the house, yes exactly, and so I think by association my dad tried to get me to read the Lord of the Rings books. I have a d H D probably and so definitely couldn't finish any of them, but I definitely checked out the Do you remember the monster sized compilation of the three books with the Ringwraith on the cover that they released in time

for the movies? I remember checking it was gorgeous, and I remember checking that out and trying to read it. But ultimately the movies is what solidified my love for this franchise, and then through that the visual companions, the merchandise, the extended edition, and like the theatrical releases, like everything around the culture of Lord the Rings was an obsession for my family, and I, um, did you ever have

the ring? Unfortunately I did. I absolutely had the nice one girl, like the one from the catalog, like the official Lord of the Rings jewelry catalog that's sold, like the Elvin Star, and like this sword. The merch that I had that was the most important to me was I had an Rwin action figure. It was a set.

It was Urwin who had a horse, Bilbo, and then the Ring Wraith also on a horse from the scene where they chase Rwin and she goes through the river and does her little Caroline Polcheck moment where she's like and then the water comes up and yeah, and it was one of my favorite scenes definitely in that movie, if not the entire frame, and the only scene with one of the three scenes woman exactly. Okay. But to answer the question I asked you, because you didn't ask me.

It back. My entry point in all things Tolkien was I received the book The Hobbit as a Hanukkah gift one year when I was I want to say, nine or ten, before the movies, before the movies, and even though before we started recording, you told me that you thought that I had never actually finished The Hobbit and hated it, which um was very hurtful to me. I'm sorry, because actually it is definitely one of the defining books of my childhood and I remember receiving it so vividly,

and it's like such a route memory for me. And that's when I fell in love with it and started reading the books, and then the movies came out, and I was so obsessed with the movies I had them all on DVD. Well, I had them on VHS first and then DVD. Every day for like a year, I would start Fellowship of the Ring when I got into bed,

and that's what would like lull me to sleep. Wow, Okay, I mean the answer to this question might be obvious, but like, what about the world of the Hobbit or just like tolkien Esque world building in general was so captivating to you? Well, I think with the Hobbit itself, it is the way that the story is told, and I think some of that comes from part of the back story of how the Hobbit was created. So you know, obviously Lord of the Rings looms larger in the cultural

consciousness than the Hobbit does. But the Hobbit is what was written first, and it wasn't actually written as a book. It was a story that J. R. O. Tolkien used to tell his kids, and then he turned it into a book. And that's why the book itself is so episodic, Like every chapter is a new adventure that Bilboo goes on in which he learned something or find something or like saves someone and in a very meta way. Um,

it's passed down through generations through children via an oral history. Yes, and so that is what I immediately latched onto was that kind of storytelling nature. I think the my favorite part of the Hobbit books is the chapter with the trolls where where Nowhere? Um, Yeah, where the trolls kidnapped the dwarves and Bilbo and ganned off like outsmart them

and they turned to stone at the end. The premise of the Hobbit for those that don't know, is Bilbo Baggins, who is the kind of father figure in the Lord of the Rings franchise. That's kind of puts a lot of the um plot in motion. Um basically leaves Hobbit in for the first time at kind of Gandalf's pressing

for the first time. He meets Gandalf as well to basically go and defeat Smock the Dragons to help to help thorn oaken Shield, who is the king under the Mountain, reclaim his kingdom which has been usurped by Smock the Dragon, and he and a company of twelve question mark Dwarves um go travel to Smog's Layer to kind of reclaim it. Yes, And then I was very much led into Lord of the Rings in a really organic way because that is how Tolkien intended it to be. Because Lord of the

Rings is in many ways. You know, Tolkien was creating these stories for his children, and his children were growing up. So then after he wrote The Hobbit, he then went on to create Lord of the Rings, which is obviously much more adult and you know, how to kind of go and like rheticon a lot of what's in Lord of the Rings to make it fit into the universe, because the thing is in the books, like the ring

that Bilbo finds, it's just another like narrative thing. Like it's it's not like when when the ring comes into play in the Hobbit, it's not the ring of Lord of the Rings. You know, it's just like a magical ring that turns him invisible. And then in Lord of the Rings, you know, he decides, Okay, this is actually going to be like you know, the MacGuffin object that has all this power and that everyone wants and needs

to be destroyed. Yeah, and and the Hobbits, I would also say, as a race are an encapsulation of like a kind of fundamental theme in Tolkien's work, which is that heroism comes from the most unexpected places, and that you can doubt all you want the like power and ability of someone who doesn't look or feel or sound like a hero, someone who doesn't even want to be

a hero um and yet here they are. And like I think that in both The Hobbit and a little bit of lorther Rings as well, they demonstrate basically Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, but like the refusal of the call is like a quintessential stage in Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, and in The Hobbit Bill it was like, fuck not am I leaving Hobbit in you know what I mean?

And like Freddie gets tricked into it and the movies, that's changed and they and they make it his choice on the trip, which I do think like is kind of narratively better. I like that, but you know whatever whatever. Whereas whereas in Lord of the Rings, Frodo does make

the choice to go on this journey. And you know, when we were talking before about this episode, you brought up the idea of the chosen one and I think Lord of the Rings specifically, it's such a subversion of that narrative of the Chosen One, which I think the Chosen One is kind of like an almost more modern fantasy take than fantasy that was being created in the time that Tolkien was rightening this um it's actually very old.

It's like it like predates a lot of well, I I just mean like in terms of like contemporary literature, because you know, these this kind of book that Tolkien was writing wasn't being really written for adults at the time, and Chosen the Chosen One idea does feel very like juvenile to me, because it's it's very something that like a young person in a story is like is grafted onto them that they're the only person and who can like save the kingdom or like defeat the dark Lord

or whatever. And in Lord of the Rings, you know, Frotto isn't chosen. He just like wines he inherits the Ring and he makes the decision to go on this very arduous journey, and there's nothing like inherently good in him that helps him like defeat the bad guy, and actually in the end he gives in to the evil. He does not throw the ring into Mount Doom. He actually is going to keep it for himself, and it's only because Gallum attacks him that the ring ends up

being destroyed. On this whole choke, You're so right as well. It's like such a spin on like the Chosen One narrative, because like dating back to literally the Bible, which is like maybe one of the o g like chosen narrative stories, a story that maybe didn't. I don't think the Bible necessarily influenced a lot of Tolkien's work, even though a lot of Christians love to create allegories and like alignments

between Lord of the Rings and the Bible. But like C. S. Lewis was very in her Bible, and they were best friends, and so I think that or more than I mean, do you think do you think they were? They were? They were think I think they at least jerked off together once. They have definitely, yeah, pulled their padges in

a dark room, pulling your padge. Yeah, they were. They were definitely circle jerking in a dark room together, well, you know, creating a song song of Solomon and probably um but uh I when you come no, not as like Aslan and Gandalf are kind of like The Lion, the Witch and the aster Glide, the Lion, the Witch and the Boy, but not Aster Glade hopefully gun Oil. Oh No, Anyways, I don't think that UM Tolkien and

UM C. S. Lewis's relationship. I think is actually very reflected in Lord of the Rings, particularly homoerotic, if not homo social, if not homo erotic, relations between all of the male characters. Because let's get into that. I mean, you talk a lot about I mean, you post a lot of fans, a lot of fans are okay, Lord of the Rings is gay down because there are no women.

There's no women. Um and Phoebe wants to know producer Phoebe wants to know why there are no women and there's no women, probably because Tolkien was like gay or in the thirties when women basically didn't exist. Because I mean, and that's honestly, there's a Sophoebe. There's a kind of like lore within the Lord of the Rings that there are no female dwarfs and that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground. And I think that that, honestly is kind of indicative of how Tolkien was thinking

about and in that they really just did. The only service they provided was to reproduce and even the women that we think of when we think of Lord of the Rings, like in the books, canonically there are two women who actually appear in the plot, and that is glad Reel and a Owen, because our Win is only mentioned in the appendices, and they only beefed up her roles for the movie because the scene where she rescues Frodo, that's a whole different character in in the books, which

I love, and you know, Arewin was originally supposed to have a much bigger part in the second movie. She was supposed to be in the battle at Helm's Deep.

You broke that news to me when we watched together, and I was, I'm so mad, and I think, like, in some ways, it's kind I understand the narrative choice, because especially in the second movie, we're supposed to understand the singularity of a Owen as a female warrior, and like people of the time, we're like, what, we can have two of them, because like, you know, people want to understand that, and I guess it like it does maybe make it less impactful when in the third movie,

a when kills the Witch King of Angmar and says, I am no man, but also like they're gonna be more than one woman. They're also just unfortunately just not very complex characters like a Win and Arwin are kind of one. Like Darwin's whole arc is that, like she is kind of bad us in the first movie, and then the second movie she's like, oh my heart broken, I'm dying. She literally spends both of those movies like laying in repose, like in a gorgeous gown, being like father, like,

am I going to be immortal? Or will I find love? Like? And then she gives up her immortality for a man. For Vigo Mortenson, we've seen his dick. He has shown his dick on screen. I don't think she's getting anything special. And he's also famously short. He's very short. Did you know that he's extremely short? Wait? Did they photoshop him so that he was taller than Arwin? I actually don't remember him feeling shorter in the movies. They really played

around with height in every way they could. They did. There's lots of perspective um, you know, trickery in the Lord of the Rings films, thanks to Peter Jackson and the magic he created through these movies to go back to this kind of like chosen one thing. You know, Ericorn is kind of a chosen one narrative. Frodo's kind of this. You know. There there are a lot of different like ways we're in. Tolkien I think was really a student of like the narrative, and he like was

extremely literary. They were both Cambridge girls and so they were and like, you know, Tolkien was like a linguist, Like he literally took the languages very seriously and created literal, full languages. It wasn't just kind of like a oh, I just need four lines and I'm gonna make up some things, and then there is there's el He created a whole language. He also, you know, there's so much text. He not only wrote all of the appendices for Lord

of the Rings. There's the sill Marillion, which tells the backstory of you know, sal RAN's rise to power and kind of all the mythology of Middle Earth. There's tons of short stories written in the world of Lord of the Rings. There's actually one which explains the backstory between Galadril and Gandalf. Did you know that they used to fuck what, you know, Gandalf when he used to be a mayor, which are like the like kind of angelic beings that that the wizards are when they're not in

like human form. He and Galadriel used to be a thing, like thousands and thousands of years ago. Yeah. But then when he finally like comes to Middle Earth in the form of Gandalf, she is married. Um, and so they you know, can't be together. And that's why I guess on the Hobbit movies they have kind of a weird well Giandolf unfortunately still feels pretty gay to me, or maybe everyone's gay and everyone's gay. Yeah, we go back to the homo homo roticism of it all we have.

You know, you you you wrote some ships. I wrote some ships down, so the big ones are Salmon Frodo. Obviously. There's even you should go search um Lord of the Rings Secret Lovers on YouTube because there's a TBS promo in which they like have edited it to look as the Lord of the Rings is a love story about Salmon Frodo. Um in the Hobbit trilogy, which you know is not good, but I definitely watched um. Bilbo and Thorin very much have a vibe that it's a fan

fiction about them. Legolas and Ericorn are kind of a thing. I personally am more interested in Legolas and Gimley. I was gonna say, like Lass and Gimley, I Legolas was there's lots of crouching down in that relationship. Let's just say that. I'm sure. I'm sure they have, you know, maybe a step stool involved at some point. Lego Loss was really like the sexual wakening for so many fags, and and for myself, I had the hugest crush on

Orlando Bloom as Lego Loss. To talk about that for a little bit at the fense that Lego Loss this is so corny, but Legolas was like a kind of gender nonconforming, kind of like, you know, girl, Lego like a lot giving is giving heathen skirt, tides wig, you know, or maybe Legolass is given like in in their in their Instagram bio. It's like any pronouns are fine, yeah, yeah,

any right, yeah, Lego Loss is giving that. All elves in general, I think, are kind of like they their their race and world seems to exist so much outside of Middle Earth and like the forest, yes, and then and then they like leave to go to war to go to val Howl or something. They go to like

basically heaven, but it's like not really heaven. It's just this like perfect world where they the undying land, which is so sorry, uninteresting as like a as a like in terms of a writer's perspective, like there's nothing interesting to me about going to like a heaven place. And in my opinion, controversially, I think that the last thirty

minutes of the third movie are extremely boring. Well there's well, you know, there's so many fake endings and the movie drags on, but you know the fact that the that the elves go somewhere did give us the I think the best line of all the movies, which is when Galadriel says I passed the test, I will diminish and go into the West and remain, which is my favorite meme of all time. Yeah, it is the one that I post like twenty times a year. Look all shall

love me and despair. That's my Twitter bio. No, it's actually a perfect Twitter bio for you not gonna lie. Yes, um okay. So, in terms of other queer coded characters, the urukai um, which are the kind of bastardized or that's that Saramon creates. He's bred to be killing machines. Yes, um, they I guess it might be because they have a high poet, definitely a marinator. The Hearts were coming in with big stars and they were going, yeah, we're going

to get those hobbits. Yeah, I'm just like imagining an orc, like like putting a third arrow into bor a mirror. Like just keep dying and Dyane and Diane and Dane. We got there, We got there. Funny enough, the Orcs were the only roles up in the show outside of the main characters that were played by women. I think I think almost a third, they say, of the Orcs in the movie franchise were played by women. Love. Um,

diversity and inclusion representation matters. Sure. Oh my god, Phoebe is dying in the booth hearing things about Tolkeen very basically the first time, because Phoebe's never seen the little of the Rings trilogy and were like the book context or read the books, so we're like contextualizing all of this and it's just bizarre out of context. Um. But yeah,

I I feel like I growing up. I don't know if I really picked up on the homo eroticism of like these male friendships, but male homo social friendships were the string that pulled a lot of you are you know that that kind of vibe? Yeah, and they like caress each other's cheek for like like like a fully holding yeah, I love you well, even um when Boromir dies in Fellowship of the Ring, like I mean obviously he and Ericorn were fucking and sucking you know when

the Hobbits were sleeping at night. That was a loss for sure. Also, maybe there's maybe some like incest a foot between like bar Mere and far Mere or Larmer so hot fer Farmer is maybe hottest next to like you know what I hate is that a Win is like I'm this girl boss warrior. I killed the witch king of Angmer, and then at the end she's like, oh, I'm going to lay down my sword and Mary farm here. That was so boring, so lazy, because a Owen and

Rwin obviously should have hooked up. Yeah, absolutely, but like a Owen falling in love with Farming here, Like I don't think they even expanded on that in the extended edition, Like it was just this is what I'm saying born, which is why the second movie is the best movie and a win. Oh the second movie, absolutely, True Towers is the best movie. True Beard. Are you kidding me? Yes? Absolutely?

Tree Beard is giving radical Ferry, also played by Jonathan Rees Davies, who played Gimli, who also played the elephant in my favorite childhood film, Cats Don't Dance. Get ready for that episode. By my god, you are going to have to watch it, I know looking forward to it. Um. I would love to ask you if you thought Gandalf was gay because it was played by Ian McKellen, who is famously gay, but Sean Connery, who is famously not gay, did turn down the role. Um. I think Gandolf transcends sexuality,

so he's a gender. I think Gandolf is a um trans elder. Oh oh, I love that trans elder, trans elder, no transferm trans elder who is kind of like, I don't care about shaving anymore. You know. She said, I do not have to present to you in a certain way. Non binary trans elder, non binary people don't owe you. Androgen is exactly exactly. Oh my gosh, especially when she comes back as Gandalf the White with that lace laid.

What were the hair and makeup? People on Lord of the Rings doing that people in current day movies cannot replicate. Like we saw Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness last night, and Doctor Stranger's hairline was so clocky. And then in fucking nine the nineties, we had people blending

Gandalf edges like butter but it was melted. I honestly, okay, I would love to talk about like watching the franchise in adulthood versus watching his childhood, because I recently rewatched and that was actually one of the things that I noticed was the way that Gandalf really was kind of queenie, Like he loved a reveal, Okay, like when he came up all pretended to be Saramon just for the gang, just for and then he did it again when he went to Um not Helm's Deep, when he went to

rohan to to find the poisoned king. I think they would play Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings happening the funk up. Absolutely not, but like literally when he came to rohan On and he was, you know, trying to um basically eradicate the poison from Theoden and like is giving gand off the gray and then like you thought, you thought if the White she brings it to you

every bush. She took out her cloak and she said yeah, and then like you know, um aer Gornett and like a last backup dance kind of like you were telling me that. Ian McKellen turned down another role to do this. Yeah. Oh yeah, so Ian McKellen did not play Dumbledore because he was like, well, I already played Gandoff, so like I'm not going to do another wizard moment. Yeah, I

would be way too repetitive. Like those are the two most famous Elder Wizards ever aside from Merlin, you know what I mean, So like for one person to play all of them just would be not right. Um. I do love the battle between Saramon and Gandalf and Fellowship of the Rings where they're just basically like grunting at each other. They're like with their staffs are like just like hours of footage that are just welcome to like a virgin. And then when she's like Seremon is like

spinning the staff and then goes up into the ceiling. Yeah, that is actually and then like does a tip. I am by no means a gamer, but at the time I will I was a loser and had no friends. So the Lord of the Rings games. Video games are extention course, they're all I'm not. I'm not a video game. And anyway, The Two Towers was kind of the first real video game to hit the market and it was amazing, and then they really leveled up with the Return of

the King, which is definitely the best video game. But like, I'm just bringing it up because like the majority of you playing this game is like Gandalf and others just doing ha ha, you know, like the entire time, um, and it never it never got old. Like I remember, I like completed the Return of the King video game like seventeen times in my in my childhood. I love that.

I just searched Lord of the Rings thunderpost remix in YouTube and John John Williams really upset M. But you know what, I was obsessed with the song that Billie Boyd who plays Pippin um sings. What is that and that has a great remix? Yes, yes, yes, literally google and we should listen to it right now. It's an amazing club remix of Pippins song Edge of Night. This is not the one that I was thinking of, but I'm still feeling it. Yeah, it's good. It's good as skips. Okay,

that was kind of post. Will be adding this to my UM Hot Girl Walk playlist. Love that. Um anyways, I did love that song as well. I I will complain briefly that, um, there are too many songs in general in the Lord of the Rings books, too many songs, too many poems. They love to sing a song, they love to say riddles in rhyme riddles. Oh my god,

Oh my god. The Hobbit is prime predominantly riddles like it. Well, that's how in the original you know, telling of the Hobbit, Gallum is much more of a sort of like tricksie character than an outright villain. Yeah. But the riddles were like very like snriddles in the very snapple bottle cap kind of riddles like and then and then a popsicle.

The songs were giving very like dove secrets chocolate like like I don't know, like I just feel like a lot of the songs were very sacharin and did not move the plot at all, and very just as a writer from a writer's perspective, like indulgent and like Tolkien needed an I'm sorry like they both of them needed editors. I think C. S. Lewis is better at editing himself because his books were like a little bit more for children.

But like when they were sitting there, like at the Eagleman Child, the pub that they famously wrote, like their books at together, they should have edited. They're just like us writing books in a fucking coffee shop and a

fucking guy. Yeah. Yeah, Tolkien and C. S Lewis sitting at their laptops across from each other, each with ice oat latte is being like, oh yeah, I'm thinking that like maybe Gimbly is going to have like an arc here and then and then C. S Lewis is like, yeah, that sounds great, bro, and then like do you want to go in the bathroom and each other all, hey, do you think that you can send this stuff to

your agent? Like, oh, I don't have an agent, bro, I'm sorry, but like that is a kind of like, you know, Hollywood, I wonder if they're CS Lewis, j R. R. Tolkien real person fan pic ship. Definitely, there's one thousand percent us. Yep, there is, Okay, one grade I have with Lord of the Rings, which is first side from the women the side from the back of the No women. Okay, first of all, it's very gay. Lord of the Rings, that obviously is very gay. Everyone's fighting over a piece

of jewelry. Um, I love that, love that they really just go check out the s and sale. There's like always fifteen. But what the fuck does Saron even want with the ring? Like there's no there's nothing, there's no like specification about what it's going to do. When he gets it, it's just like he becomes more powerful. That's kind of whine. Cambellian narratives are often very flat and like like especially when it's like in action, but like it's like the same thing as we like we always

talk about with Marvel movies. It's like they spend the whole movie looking for this thing that like you don't even really get why they need. The motivation is not necessarily there, and the villain is not that interesting because all he wants is power and immortality. And I guess it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. It's

about the journey. It really is, um and and the the films are like the plots are really complex and yet extremely simple because they follow archetypes and I think it's a cock ring. I think Salaron is a huge cock and the ring will um adjust. I was going to say the ring famously adjusted size, and so if you put it around your keen um, that would actually be a really useful invention, like a metal adjustable cock ring. Okay, well, like how I feel like Hobbits probably have a lot

of orgies in Hobbitant. Also, we have said this on the podcast before we need to go to New Zealand and go to Hobbiton. Someone needs to sponsor us to do this. We will do ads for whatever fucking New Zealand Board of Tourism, anyone, they are the borders even open in New Zealand. I don't care. They just like have they are they holding? Lord? You can you can put me in a barrel like the dwarves in the hobbit and send me down the river. I just want

to go to Hobbiton. Yeah, and Lord will be there at at the edges, at the edges of the and she she's you know, she's in full eleven GARB and she's like, oh, do you think Lord likes Lord of the Rings? Lord of the Rings? I mean she obviously I think that Lord of the Rings has to be integral to New Zealand like Kiwi culture, right, Like they're probably inextricably linked. So I would imagine that she is a Lord of the Rings fan, but she famously only watches a few movies a year. Has Lord ever uttered

the words fool of a too? No, she hasn't, unfortunately, but she has shushed a lot of people, which Gandalf does do. This is what the whole podcast has been. I think and Sarmon are giving such x energy, Like, yeah, they so obviously used to date, and there's a lot and there was a bad breakup. Yeah, and Gandolf like you know, like really wants his like Joni Mitchell vinyl collection. Okay, I'm retracting my earlier sting. Oh no, here's what it is, bitch,

here's what it is. So I was gonna say I was going to retract my statement that Gandalf was like trans Elder because I was gonna say, like, no, Gandolf's gay because he and No they were excess and then Gandalf and Transition and and Sourmont has been a bitter bitch about it ever since. Yeah, it's giving homeop a bit it's giving, trans transporobic, transphobic gay. Oh my god, we just unlocked this bitch. How could you be transphobic and have a lace front like that? Like, come on,

have you met any drag queens ever? Have you met RuPaul? Well, RuPaul's lace front is so, I mean, the best lace front of money money can buy. Who's your favorite Lord of the Rings villain? Probably the witch King of Angmar. He was pretty sick from the first movie to the end. You're actually a percent right forgive me, um, I would say in the words, in the words of Charlene, if you don't have any pronouns, I'm going to use the one that you look like, Oh my god, that's please

don't follow. Don't don't follow anyways. Um. I think they were um a kind of transcendent villain that had so many different had, you know, an elevation onto the dragon that was really satiating and Gallum to me got repetitive and annoying. Saramon was queeny, but actually removed himself from a lot of the movie. He wasn't he was supposed to be. I'm sure you know this, Like a big

part of the third film, Slash Book. We're in even after Um destroys the Ring, they have to go back to Eisngard to fight Saruman and take over Rising Guard. But to me, like, yeah, the witching of Angmar is like maybe the most boss as bitch of the villains. What about you, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually throw out a little surprise here and let you know that maybe not my favorite, but I think in terms of performances, Benedict Cumberbatch of smileg actually eats in the Hobbit trilogy.

I forgot that he did that. We have not really touched on the Hobbit trilogy much because it's bad. The first movie is actually really good. Well, when you know the story behind the Hobbit trilogy, it's actually really sad the way it all went down, And I would I would suggest I'm going to give like a very like truncated explainer on this, and if you want something that's a little more in depth, I would really recommend watching Lindsay Ellis's trio of video essays about the Hobbit on YouTube.

But basically, The Hobbit was initially supposed to be two movies directed by Gamma del Toro, which would have been incredible, and they were going to be much more like truer to the books, like they were going to be really like for children, like have a like a distinctive visual style that was much more Del Toro than it was

Peter Jackson and Lord of the Rings. And then they had already done two years of pre production on The Hobbit when Gammo del Toro was fired and they brought Peter Jackson into take over the movies and make them much more stylistically in line with Lord of the Ring and to reference Lord of the Rings much more, because you know, there's Um in the Hobbit, there's a necromancer who, like you find out, is actually into sky Is, but like it's kind of just like an afterthought in the books,

and like they make it such a big plot in the movies and Um. There's also a lot of stories about how like when they were shooting the films, like it was originally supposed to be two and then they made the decision to make them three, but it happened while the movies were already shooting, and then none of the cast ever knew like which movie the scene they

were shooting was supposed to go in. Um that a lot of the actors who played the dwarves were like really mistreated by the production company, and um it, actually the Hobbit had this whole political controversy in which like labor laws were written in New Zealand because of it.

It's just like it was a huge mess and you can definitely feel it in those movies, which are like the first one is pretty good, the second one is good because of Benedict Cumberbatch's smile and if you go and look at any of the behind the scenes info of him doing the most and capture like it's obviously like kind of funny because he's crawling around on the floor,

but like it's a good performance. And his scenes with Bilbo in the cavern are so good, and they have great chemistry obviously, like anyone who's ever watched the BBC Sherlock knows the ben Nick Coombrad and Martin Freeman have really good chemistry. But um, yeah, he's just a really fun villain. And I wish that we had gotten to see Gammo del Toro's version of the Hobbit. I also do love there's an animated movie of the Hobbit that I watched a lot when I was a kid that

I'm obsessed with. I didn't watch that either. There also, similarly is an animated version of the line The Witch and the Wardrobe. But I was obsessed and I was a good Oh my god, the Witch in that movie. It's with her little skull cat. So yeah, um, okay, we should do a Narnia episode honestly more nor it's

too wholesome, that's honestly, like um. Something that I resent for no logistical reason, only for a personal one is that like Narnia and Middle Earth and the stories that come with them are extremely like family friendly stories, like because they were both very Christian and very oxford Ian and very like kind of conservative, like there were no women and there, you know, And I think that, like I I do think that the film franchise of The Lord Rings is like untouchable, Like I would not change

a thing about it, aside for the fact that has no women and no people. But that's also why we have Game of Thrones, because the whole point of Game of Thrones is it's a deconstruction of these classical fantasy books where the women have no agency and everyone's like like really just and true and like good triumphs of evil, and you know, Game of Thrones is like such a subversion of that, and I think it's why it was

so popular. But also like we we wouldn't have that if Lord of the Rings hadn't saved the way for you know, the mainstream success of fantasy, because we also can't forget that these movies were huge box office successes and one like a trillion oscars. They literally the third movie tied from most oscars ever awarded to a film with Titanic, and then after that Avatar, I believe. But um, you can't wait for Avatar the Way of Water, I know, um speaking of like future future stuff and like what

what happens now to this franchise in mainstream media? Amazon is going to make a TV show about the stories of the Cima Realian I believe. I think it'll be extremely tough for them to build a mythology without referencing Peter Jackson's work, even though it looks it looks pretty stylistically different, and also like there's people of color and women and I love, Yeah, that'll that'll matter enough to me.

I I although it already has created a lot, it has unearthed a lot of really ugly racism on line. I'm not looking forward to what that like, At least, thankfully, I'm not on the part of the Internet where there's any discourse about that happening, so thank god too. Yeah, but it fucking sucks that it's happening, and like you

all are fucking racist. Yeah, And I think, honestly, Peter Jackson's like kind of greatest weakness was the level of detail in his textual awareness of the books, like he was a student of the appendices and like all the

stories that came with the films. And even though the adaptation is as true as an adaptation can get in terms of trying to service the original fandom of the books, that that ultimately gave us, you know, some of the problems that we're talking about now in terms of what irscasting, but also like story wise, making it a little boring sometimes because what we find entertaining in terms of plot and character in the nineteen thirties is very different than

what we find entertaining today. Well, that's why I'm very interested to see what this new era of Lord of the Rings media looks like telling different stories in that universe. And there is kind of a parallel to that happening with Game of Thrones, because you know, right around the same time that the new Lord of the Rings show comes out, we're getting a new Game of Throne series on HBO Max that similarly takes place in that universe,

but a different time period. So I'm, I guess excited for this new era of you know, looking at these legacy fantasy properties and finding ways to tell expanded, more inclusive, and maybe more interesting stories in familiar worlds, maybe grounded in kind of contemporary sensibility more, you know, I think that, So maybe we'll finally get to see someone eat a

hobbit hole. Yeah, Like the most contemporary thing about the film franchise is maybe its sense of er and how you know those jokes are still funny when we watch them now, yeah, exactly, or like touch me, you know what I mean. Like those are like moments that are still funny because the characters are built really nicely. But I shall not past talk about transphobia. I mean, well, I mean but talking to herself, That's what I was going to ask you, what does that mean in context

of her as a trans elder. It's that it's why she you know, she's just she's like, I'm going to give my life. I'm gonna sacrifice my life for these hobbits and fight the ball rog and it's okay because I'll never pass. Yeah, because she's the moans not worth it. We'll be back next week with the discussion on all

things theme parks with Matt Rogers. Very excited to talk about Disney Universal six Flags and I'll be the virgin is I've only really been to two theme parks, so yeah, so it's going to be quite a roller coaster if you will. If you will, you can follow our Instagram at like a Virgin for updates on future episodes, and you know, tag us in what you think we should talk about next, or you can side into our d m s because we do check them. You can also tweet.

You can leave a suggestion as a review on Apple podcasts. You know a book, a show, a movie, a phenomenon we want to hear from you. And of course the hotline is still open. You can call to confess at three to three pennants. That's three two three seven three six two six two three. I'm your co host, Fran Toronto. You can find me at Friends Squish go wherever you

want on social and I'm Rose Damn You. You can find me at Rose Damn You wherever you can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen, leave us a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple Podcasts. Like a Virgin is an I Heart Radio production. Our producer is the Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, jess Cranchitch, and Nikkia to or until next week, Sionada Virgins. I passed the test. I will diminish and go into the west and remain. Let it be goad, and then

they'd have to be slow quiet ta Marines. And she would kind of chant, and she chance a little more