Tracie and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot Yeah , the plot which they overthink .
I'm here with my sister , Emily Guy Birken no hyphen . And I'm here with my sister , Tracie Guy-Decker yes , hyphen . And together we do a show called Lightbringers .
Where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show And yes , we are overthinking it .
So I think today we're going to talk about the pilot , the pilot episode of Lucifer .
Starring Tom .
Ellis , the incomparable .
The incomparable Tom Ellis .
Yes .
Yes , and what I noticed was they let him have chest hair in the pilot Just a little , just a little , just a little , just a little chest hair .
Yeah , there's none at all . Later in the series None . Later on , there's a lot of man-saping going on later in the series . Yes .
I wish they had let him keep the chest hair .
It was quite nice , but You know , the other thing that I think actually is something throughout is there are some . I mean , he makes a big point in the pilot about the fact that women can't control themselves . Like that .
He just brings out carnal desire in all women And yet he has this really sweet , almost avuncular relationship with Delilah , right , like there's .
There seems to be nothing particularly sexual about their relationship , and I think there are other female characters throughout the series that he has that kind of like avuncular relationship , with candy coming to mind for instance , and so I'm not sure like what the distinction is Like .
If it's up to him , maybe , but I think that's an interesting like it stood out for me , especially because in that first pilot episode they make such a big deal about how no one can control themselves , right , and Dr Linda tries and fails , and that's why it's such a big deal that that Chloe is immune to his charms because no one is .
Re-watching it . This time . I also was thinking , because a menadil makes a big deal of the fact that he's changing and that he cares about humans . Maze is having a problem with it , but he very clearly cares about Delilah .
Very much so Yeah .
Throughout . When he calls in his favor it's for her to pull herself together and improve her own life . So I had the assumption that they had slept together because and who knows , who knows what that meant , although , like at some point I can't remember if it's in this episode or he tells Linda I'm walking heroin , you need to be careful .
Yes , it's in the pilot . Yeah , he says it to Linda . Yeah , but just I mean he kisses Delilah on the forehead . Yes , i mean that's just so paternal , or . I mean I'm trying to not make it paternal , like in my mind , i keep saying the word of oncular in my head . but yeah , there's something like decidedly unsexual , about a kiss on the forehead .
Yes , yeah , that's true . And to the point about the heroin , like if they had slept together , like she wasn't there for that reason It is .
Also he's all about drawing out the desires , and Linda is very sexual , like they make that clear throughout , and one of the things I really like about her is they make it clear that she's a professional woman who is very good at her job and also really likes sex and like handsome men , and that's just part of who she is .
And so I wonder if it's drawing out that so Delilah's desire was to sing And so he drew that out of her , and so it's not necessarily that it's always a sexual desire .
That's interesting , and maybe Delilah had a desire to be taken care of as well .
Yes , Makes sense of why she ended up sleeping with her producer ?
Yes , yeah , and so that's interesting , like I wonder how much he is shaped by the other person's desire to . I mean , like we get the impression that there is that they are shaped by him somehow , or that he kind of focuses on the specific , like the forbidden desires .
But I wonder if those like less forbidden , like the more kind of accepted , like being taken care of desires actually do end up kind of having a reciprocal effect on him in the way that he interacts with Delilah , i mean .
Well , and even his interactions with Trixie in that , because as soon as he finds out what's going on , he goes to confront the mean girl Right .
Which , sorry as an aside , like the special effects they did for his eyes in the pilot . They never do that again . And it was pretty . I know I don't do that anymore . That was like freaky creepy , like , not just like red , it was like I don't know . Yeah .
It's like the aliens and men in black , like it was creepy .
Yes , Of course she screamed Yeah , yeah , it wasn't just that , i mean , like later they like glow red , like from the people , but this was like a transformation , that was just . Yeah . I'm glad they didn't do that anymore .
Yeah , yeah , i mean , but yes , you're right , you're right , he was , he was shaped by Trixie's desire to , in his next action , to go and front the mean girl . Huh .
So , and then that would kind of make sense , why he doesn't generally ? I mean like yes , he does . He is surrounded by women throwing their underwear at him and men , but it's not to the point where like he can't walk Right .
Well , and also there are relationships that he has Yeah , that we see from the very beginning that are defined by things other than sex , which is which is maybe also sort of the opening for the changes that may is in a menogular scene , right Like well and moving forward like this is skipping ahead but also thinking about with Linda .
Her desire changes . It goes from like the carnal desire for him to actually desiring being a good therapist to him and actually helping him and recognizing , like you know , my real desire is to help this man get better , yeah , yeah .
And so , because there's never a relapse after that , there's never a point where you consistently see her for a little while going like , hmm , don't , i know it .
I'm like , yes , So , and whenever he makes a sexual joke , and and then after she makes the decision , like , no , we're not doing that anymore , she's good , she like she's not ruined for other men , right ?
Right . You know , the other thing that I think changes , speaking of the desires and things like in this , in the pilot , he doesn't need to like say the magic words to draw people's desires , like his presence is enough . There does seem to be something about eye contact , because Jimmy knows that and is like , don't look at me .
Like that , yes , like with the cop , like he doesn't have to say to the cop what do you want , he just goes I know you want the money , go ahead , yeah , right . And there's something about like just his , or even the bride , jimmy's bride , like he doesn't have to say to her what do you want ? He just like well , and question .
And then truth telling comes out . Now he does say the simpler the human , the easier it is , the more complex , and so maybe that's part of the equation . But I also think , like for the show runners , like I imagine that , as you like , get several episodes and seasons in , it's just easier to write if you have a cue for when that happens .
Yeah , yeah , and it doesn't just like , except for when his mojo was going crazy . Goes crazy .
Yeah , you know , one thing I'm interested in and I meant to look it up before we started recording and I totally forgot is so desire is something that Lucifer is kind of known for , and people want to tell him their secret desires . Now there's a book called horns by Joe Hill , who is actually Stephen King's kid .
That is phenomenal , and it's about a man who wakes up one day with horns , with devil's horns . He's like turning into the devil and the like Oscar .
But kind of Yeah .
Yeah , and it's . People already hold him responsible for the brutal death of his girlfriend the year before And so he's kind of just turned into what people think he is And the story is about him discovering who actually killed her . And it actually the Morning Star is part of the terminology .
It was a joke between he and his girlfriend And the thing is with his horns . People don't notice them , but they just tell him secrets . Like he sees he is in someone's presence and they say to him , like you know , i hit her medicine and no one knew and things like that .
And so I made that connection while watching Lucifer And I've been wanting to check to see if that is something that's just part of Lucifer lore , if that's something that Neil Gaiman influenced Joe Hill , joe Hill influenced the showrunners , you know like , or what , because I don't know if that's part of the like long history of Lucifer in Paradise Lost and you
know the Apocrypha , like we were talking about things like that Dante's Inferno , dante's Inferno and things like that . Or if this is a more modern invention . Similarly , the idea that Lucifer doesn't lie That's something I know .
This isn't the first time I've seen that , that idea that , like he's called the Prince of Lies , but that's actually a misnomer And I don't know if , where , where , that originated .
Yeah , i don't . I don't know either . I mean , i I did do some research into the like the the scriptural sources of the story , which is primarily Apocrypha , but I didn't I didn't , why don't you , why don't you define Apocrypha for us ? Right , right .
So Apocrypha is writings that have that are contemporaneous with some of the scripture but are not considered canonical . So which is how like the modern English word to say that something is apocryphal , meaning it's like made up comes from So .
So there's there's the the first , second and third Enoch which were not accepted as canon by the rabbis but are sort of from the basically the Second Temple period . So 200 CE till seven , 200 BCE till 70 CE is basically second temple period , but it was rejected by the rabbis .
Some of the evangelists , the writers of the Christian scriptures , actually seem to have known the Enoch series and make reference to sort of the fallen angel idea . But I was actually having a really hard time kind of pinning down the idea of a rebellion against God resulting in the fall , and not just the fall but actually being tasked with overseeing hell .
It doesn't seem to be from like that specific constellation , doesn't seem to be fully from the ancient sources . There is like this sense of a rebellion based on some poetic verses in Isaiah 14 , which is actually where the Lucifer moniker comes from , which is in Greek .
The Hebrew word was like morning star or like bright star , son of the dawn , hei leil , i think in the Hebrew , which then gets translated into Greek as Lucifer , like lowercase l , which eventually becomes a name uppercase l from the Isaiah . But there's none of that whole story .
It's just sort of a couple of verses about being brought down because you , you , you , since second person tried to .
So it's the scriptural extended universe ? Yeah , I guess so .
I guess . So . I mean , it's the seed . It's the seed out of which this sort of like much , much , much more complicated plant grew . I really wanted it to be Jewish .
Yeah , I get that . It's not I know .
It's really not . I mean , in fact , the rabbi is like explicitly rejected it . Yeah .
We can claim that . We can claim the origin of the word Lucifer .
Yeah , well , sort of because it was Sort of . They translated Isaiah into Greek . So I don't know if we can , yeah , but anyway , yeah , but so I actually want to do a little more research .
I think I'm , i'm , i'm glad you pointed out this other example of the sort of desires and the , the not lying because I'm I'm curious to see sort of where the other scriptural sources are not scriptural but just cultural , cultural sources are .
Yeah , game in Neil Gaiman , on whose piece this was the show is very loosely based , is really amazing at sort of pulling different cultural sources and like pulling them together into an alternative , alternative version of the story . I mean , i think that's one of the things he does like brilliantly well , i think I'm just thinking this .
And then like Good Omens , exactly Terri Pratchett , although Pratchett I feel like , not that Gaiman is not funny , he is funny , but Pratchett is the one who made Good Omens like rolling on the floor laughing .
I , in my mind , neil Gaiman is much more heartfelt and like he's like more interested in like profundity and heartfelt .
You know , like I think about the the graveyard book , which is his like riff on the jungle book , where you know someone who's been raised by ghosts And at the end it's all about like being a parent , like sending your little one off into the world after you've done your job . Like that's what it's about , right , like that's to me . That's Gaiman's .
I'm always much more about like really kind of understanding human nature and the way we interact with each other and how we grow , or don't much more than the funny , like Pratchett is known for for the humor , humorous aspect of his science fiction and fantasy .
Pratchett is . I consider him to be in the vein of like like the satirists , like like John Stuart and Seth Meyers and Stephen Colbert and Douglas Adams , in that he is pointing out the absurdities and making bigger points while being funny , and that's a very specific skill , yeah , yeah . So , and that's something to tie back to the show .
That is not exactly like , because the show is extremely funny . It's one of the things I love about it , it's so funny , but the humor is not in service of the bigger points necessarily .
The humor is just part of , like , the absurdity of life and then life with celestials and and you know , just being a millennia year old charming bastard and stuff like that , and so and that's not a , that's not a knock on it in any way , it's just that that's a .
It's a different thing from the kind of humor that you got from Good Omens , which this reminds me of quite a bit , for for good reason .
Yeah , yeah , i mean , and one of the things that well , one of the one of the through lines is the archangel Michael , michael being a total dick , that's like a total , that is a through line for gay men is that the archangel Michael is just an ass , a dick , like .
I don't know about like being true to other sources , but that piece at least is true to gay men , gay men's understanding , which which I appreciate .
Mm , hmm , mm , hmm . That is so something that we're we'll get into more throughout as as we talk about episodes , but something that they lay the seeds for in this episode is , and the reason why . What made me think of it is when I read a couple of issues of gay men's Lucifer .
I just had trouble getting into it And I didn't feel like there were and this is one of the things that I struggle with a little bit with gay men is that he doesn't necessarily always have well fleshed out female characters Like he does . Some I'm gonna like I know death in Sandman series is great , but it'll be like he's got a couple .
And something that I love about the show is that there are so many well fleshed out and strong female characters were strong in different ways . So like you've got Mazakeen , who is emotionally not intelligent but like can kick anyone's ass and is fiercely loyal , even if that leads her astray sometimes .
And then you've got Chloe , who is like street smart and savvy and a really good detective and a good mother And but she wears her heart on her sleeve and clearly can take care of herself because she's a cop , but is also kind of not necessarily emotionally intelligent in some ways Like certainly better than Mazakeen , but in other ways they're just like .
I think she shows greater emotional intelligence in later seasons .
Yes , yeah , but even with the season five , like she says right in front of her mother , like dad supported you , you didn't support him . And like girl , girl , you know .
And then , but like she has great emotional well , no , not even emotional intelligence in front of her kid , like , yeah , like even in this episode she's arguing with Dan right in front of her kid . And it's just like you've got a seven year old child here who's already dealing with it with the separation . This is not the plan .
And even Lucifer says like should you be arguing in front of your child ? Yeah , and he who later on goes to say like was your child planned or complete mistake ? He can't . It's a complete dick about it . And then even like you've got Linda talked about a little bit , and then Trixie as a strong female character as well , like she is .
I don't know if adultified is a term , like parentified is a term for a child who's raised in a neglectful household . And that's not what's going on .
Her parents clearly love her , her parents clearly take care of her , but because of the situation , she's faces quite a bit of trauma , though I think that , like from the beginning I mean like more than once she sees her mom endangered and then she herself is endangered by Malcolm in later seasons , but she sees her mom endangered again and again and again
throughout this . I mean in this pilot episode she at the end we see her visiting her mother in the hospital after having been shot on the job . So yeah , there's definitely . Trixie is forced to grow up , i think more quickly than some kids .
And she works to protect her parents , which no child should feel like she has to do , should have to right Yeah , so and so . That's something I also appreciate , because now it's really hard to write kids and she's not a real kid .
I mean like for one thing , for one thing , her parents are both involved in things in the middle of the night , or it's like who's with Trixie , right ?
right , That's a regular like . at a certain point , it feels like the showrunners just stopped even bothering . Like a while they were like , oh , she's with my mom , but like , Or the babysitter's got her or something , Yeah , but like , by the end they're just like like , forget it for just Just don't worry about it , She's all right .
It's fine And like I'm willing to go with that because there's only so much you can do . It's like reading . there was a book that I read before I had kids and I'm reading it and the there was a character about a two year old daughter and I was just like , wow , this is really realistic . And then , after I had kids , i'm like that is not realistic .
Like the child goes to , takes a nap every day at 1.30 . I'm like what child ?
does that The clockwork right Yeah ?
You know it at 1.30 , eyes closed . So there's some of that . Just because you have to write yourself out of a hole .
Well , because , like , as parents , we know , like if we actually were realistic , like they'd never do anything , like ever Just be at home with a kid , maybe on the phone , anyway , but even on the phone they'd be like talking in code so that they don't Yeah .
So so that that's , but I for how they have characterized Trixie . I really appreciate what they have done to create a strong little girl character . And so , like you know , kids I don't know kids watching the show , but there , you know , people watching the show have so many different ways of looking at being a strong woman , which is so important .
I don't know , I can't remember if you were there , but not long after I finished college , we were . I feel like we were all home and we decided to watch the original Star Wars .
And there's the point where Leia takes the blaster from Luke so that he can fiddle with the things , so they can cross the bridge , and mom turned to us and said I needed you to see this movie because that was so unusual , like that was so revolutionary that the damsel in distress is not And she takes the gun and says I've got this , you deal with the bridge
. And I remember thinking like that's awesome .
And yet Leia is the only woman in the movie Right Right And at the same time , like you pointed out to me again on rewatching in recent years , like when she comforts Luke because Obi-Wan has been killed .
Right , her whole frigging planet was destroyed , but she has to do the emotional labor for this guy who she just who lost his mentor , who he just needed for three days , three days ago , but she has to do the comforting , like her planet was destroyed . So , like , like , yeah , both , and here .
Yeah , and like you know , and it's horrifying , and that's 1977 . That's not that long ago , it's pretty long ago .
I know Pretty long ago .
You weren't born yet . I know I was one , i know , so now they know who the younger is and the older is Oh shoot , we were going to make them guess .
Yeah So , yeah , so , but but you're bringing up an interesting thing . Like I the Lucifer . The series at least does pass the Bec Del test , which is there's more than one woman . They talk to each other about something other than men , but I don't know that the pilot actually passes that test .
That's a good question .
I don't think it does .
Chloe and Linda are talking to each other in that one scene , that's true , and they're not talking about men .
They're talking about , yeah , they're talking about Delilah , delilah , yeah .
And .
Trixie and Chloe .
Trixie and Chloe have a conversation .
Yeah , yeah , so it does pass the test . It's a pretty low bar , though It's a low bar .
And it's also like there are movies that pass the test that are like anti-feminist And there are movies that do not , that are like super feminist .
Right , right , right , which Alison Bechdel would say . I mean , she didn't mean for it to be like a panacea for her , it was just an interesting .
So , but that's something that it strikes me over and over again , in part because my boys they have superheroes that they love And they asked me who my favorite superhero was when I was a kid , because I always want to know what I was into when I was their age And it's always like I had Wonder Woman and Leia . And she wrote No you like the other one .
It was you didn't like she Are you like I like team in , you like team in and you like the . the , the bird lady from the show .
Oh gosh , like the bird headdress . I didn't even remember that I liked her , You like ?
I guess I like she right , that's yeah , but you like the bird lady . So here's the oracle , or ?
something . Here's the thing . I have this . I look back on what I was interested in as a child And I always like he meant better than she , or now , some of that is because I've always been a linguistic nerd . She became second and she should have been she woman If he .
There's a pattern , interrupt . that bothered you , that bothered the crap out of me . Yes , we overthink it , friends .
Yes , we do overthink it , and I did as an eight year old . So , but I I liked the muscular man . And then fast forward to 1993 and ex files came out and I loved it . And the thing is , what I loved was Fox Mulder's handsome face and his quippy quips and I wanted to be scully .
I did not care particularly for or about Scully other than as the object of Mulder's affection , and I feel really weird about that . Looking back particularly , i did a rewatch of ex files about five years ago , rewatch pretty much the whole series , and it was just like a he's sexually harassing her at work . B what a dick he is .
Like you know , being funny does not make what he does OK .
And C no , it's not that unusual to find someone who is single minded , because that was something that as a 14 year old , like someone who is just like the truth is out there , i'm , i'm , i'm committing my life to this and never growing or learning , like there's no real arc for Mulder , and that's that really bothers me .
And I look back on it and thinking of , like the , the books that you loved , like you love Paxon area and the dragon slayer , or dragon riders , the dragon riders of Perne , the writers of Perne .
And they were all so much .
Yeah , oh , and they were all strong female characters And even from a very tiny child I was into the handsome men And so and it makes me sometimes feel like a bad feminist that that was what I was like . I was so focused on Mulder and ex files to the .
When I learned that there was something called the Scully effect , which a lot of women my age and younger went into science because of Scully , it surprised me . I mean not surprised me , but it was just like , oh wow , that didn't have that effect on me at all .
So it's like science is going to get me closer to a hot guy named Mulder , and so that's something that I , as as an adult now , i'm trying very hard to like examine where that comes from . I mean , some of it is . I think I'm a Linda . I'm like I am always going to appreciate the very handsome men And that that gets my attention .
I was really into Wonder Woman the Linda Carter version And like you like , really into it ?
I remember , yeah , you , you would .
You would only wear your eye patch if dad drew Wonder , or mom drew Wonder Woman on it Right , right And like the , my Wonder Woman under-rouse , like mom , like , trick me to wash them because I wouldn't take them off . Yeah , i was really into Wonder Woman .
Yeah , like I wanted to be Wonder Woman , like I wanted to spin around and like and that that is is where , like some of my , like my feminist guilt comes from , like I always was , like , like , as I really thought to me , yeah , yeah , because I was just like , oh , she wants to be the hero I want to be in the path of the really handsome hero .
So , even like like Labyrinth with with David Bowie , like , yeah , i mean , yeah , that caused an awakening in Little Girl Me In Little Girl Me . But as as much as I like , i love that movie And I did identify somewhat with Sarah , but it was more like I'm here for when David Bowie is on screen .
Me too . no , I was the same with that movie . I did not agree with Sarah , I definitely , but I love the Goblin King . Oh gosh that , I love the Goblin King .
Yeah , and that's something where it's taken me a while to kind of , and I still haven't quite figured out what this now some of it , i think , is that there were so few women that I didn't necessarily like if there was . so like I love Beauty and the Beast because I identify with Belle .
Like I get that feeling of being bookish and a little awkward around other people and then also being uncomfortable with people looking at me , looks wise and not who I am , so like identify , and so I wonder if there had been more things where , like , if ex-files were an ensemble and there were multiple women in it , if I would have found one that I identified
with , although I think I would always have been distracted by David .
DeGone . It's really interesting , though , because like I was really into Wonder Woman , but like I didn't have a whole lot of choices right .
Like you got .
Batman and you got Superman , and you got The Flash and you got Green Lantern And you got , like , like you could go on and on and on with male superheroes that one could identify with And you get Wonder Woman . Yeah , i did , because I mean , even the like Supergirl or Batgirl were just like clearly like She-Ra .
They were like not real , because first of all they should have been Batwoman , superwoman . We're going to follow the pattern . Yeah , it's not Batboy , but yeah , that's something different , but yeah it's . I don't know , it's an interesting phenomenon . So it's kind of like unpacked .
And that's something that , like , i just remember . So then , watching like the modern superhero movies So I'm particularly thinking of Black Panther , which is still like a male lead superhero movie , but there are so many strong women And I like And they're strong in so many different ways . Like .
I love that about that movie . Yes . I love that about them And they actually end up taking completely divergent pads , but with such clear and unimpeachable reasoning Yes , and they still love one another , right ?
Yes , like even though they make such divergent choices , and like holding that both and in that movie , yeah , And that's something that I bring you back to Lucifer .
I really appreciate about how Lucifer is portraying women , so like I think I do in some ways identify with Linda in that like they make it very clear that she is just like I'm all about the hot guy And that's there's me in that , and I really appreciate that .
The way that Mays is like lost emotionally sometimes I am not knowing how to deal with her really big emotions Is something that I can identify with And so and I think just part of my makeup is that I'm always going to be distracted by a pretty face And that's something like I don't think that makes me a bad feminist , although there was a time in my
twenties where I was just like I think about bad feminist And then that also like one of the things that I think , like one of the things that , like Lucifer has that , and so I can just be like I'm a good feminist because there's so many women in here .
But anyway , it's really interesting how it all works And I think some of it has to do with I'm not gonna remember how to pronounce her last name , but Ildy Moldovich , who is one of the show runners .
Yeah , yeah , She's one of the primary runners yeah , yeah , and so , like I think it's pretty clear that they have that , this is they have a woman at the helm . Yeah , I think that's a good point . That's a good point , because that's a big .
I mean like Chris Carter , who I like , really , really made fantastic television with the X-Files and had an incredible story and told it well , still had a real problem Like there were . the first woman to direct an episode was Jillian Anderson in the seventh season , after David DeCovney had directed like three .
Yeah .
And she was just like hey , can I can .
I get in on this please .
Yeah , and her episode is really fascinating and a big departure And like that could have been , like there's so many missed opportunities because of that .
Yeah , I have to wrap us up . Okay , another obligation , but it's been fun overthinking Lucifer with you .
Yes , i love overthinking things .
See you in two weeks . sis , See you in two weeks .
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetentcom , Licensed under Creative Commons by attribution 4.0 license . Visit the show notes for the URL . I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narakeet dot com . Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix .
Tracie and Emily are not affiliated with Fox , Netflix nor WB . If you liked this episode , subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect .