Tracy and Emily are smart , lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah , the plot which they overthink .
I am here with my sister Tracy Guy Decker yes , hyphen . And I'm here with my sister Emily Guy Birkin no , hyphen . And together we are doing Lightbringers , where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show , and we are overthinking it so much . That's what we do , we overthink so much . We overthink .
So today we are overthinking 309 and 310 , the Cinnerman and the Sinbin and , like whoo , these two episodes reminded me why I don't often rewatch season three Grim , grim , grim , yeah , super grim . So where to start ? Well , I guess we'll start with the Cinnerman , just as a little footnote . The name remains really difficult to hear over and over again .
It just doesn't work and okay . So watching this as a rewatch and hearing Pierce say the Cinnerman killed my brother , when they were in the stake out in the car that was a little bit talking about himself , which I which actually come to think of .
It is a thing that these writers do Like when in I don't remember what season it was , but in the episode when Dan and Lucifer are in the Turkish bath . Oh yes , that was season two .
And .
Lucifer says he hates from Morningstar is dangerous .
Yeah , and how he deserves to die , yeah .
Yeah , like , I feel like that's a thing that we've seen these writers do before , where the person is talking about themselves , but the person they're talking to doesn't realize they're talking about themselves . So and actually we don't know that in the first watch through that Pierce is talking about himself when he talks about Cinnerman yeah that's .
That's something you can only pick up in a rewatch . In a rewatch or I did have a like , wait a minute , if he's the Cinnerman , then he oh like . I did have that the first time through , but it was like several episodes later was just like but he lot , oh , he did lie , so so you know , kudos for that .
The character who was playing the Cinnerman , who I don't know if we ever got a name , name for him , never did , but it was interesting why he took on that persona . I that feels like a great big question mark for me .
Yes .
Honestly . So he in the Sin Bin is saying to Lucifer you have to be the one to do it . And that seemed to be clear , like he didn't want Pierce to have to kill him . And when I watched this the first time through you and I talked about it and I still is bothering me like I don't , I don't get it .
Like he was the , the black eye who Lucifer called Cinnerman , was a sacrifice that Pierce made , I mean . But Pierce at some point , like not in these two episodes , but at some point he's like an underling went rogue or something like that . Because there's that the point when he's captured , right , chloe like flushes them out and he's captured .
Pierce tackles him . He's on the ground , looking up at Pierce and says do what you got to do , which you know , knowing who , what their relationship is like , what is that ? So you think he went rogue and tried to like take over his mentors position . But then why ? Why go after Lucifer ? Well , because he knows that Pierce was looking to learn from Lucifer .
Like Pierce came to LA specifically because Lucifer was there Like we find that out later again , right , and so if he was doing that , you know to mess with his old mentor , yeah , it's- . But if he's messing with him , why does he care who does the killing ? Yeah , I mean , if it's a suicidal mission , like why does it ?
It just like the whole thing just doesn't it doesn't hang together , it doesn't . And even before the sort of you believe in free will give me mine , which is to die by your hand , even before that , like I have , I can barely like get an eyelash out of my eye . I cannot imagine any circumstance that would make a person gouge their own eyes out with a pen .
I mean , like that really boggles my mind . Like I just- . Do you remember the story that mom tells about how dad got a carpet fuzz in his eye when they were first married and it took like six doctors to get it out because I had to sit on him ? Yeah , I do remember that . I do remember that .
Like she talked about like being in the emergency room and him on a gurney and like people just like holding him down and because of my eye problems since I was a kid , it's actually easier for me than a lot of people .
Like I had to get a Botox shot in my eye muscle one time and he just came in while I was awake , like right in the corner of my eye and , like you know , with a needle , and it really bothered the doctor , like I was kind of okay . But he was like , okay , I think you've had enough .
I was like , no , it's okay , he was doing what you gotta do and he was an eye doctor . Yeah , yeah , I just that actual . I mean I know it's very like classic literature , right , like that's what Oedipus does when he realizes what he's done . But this isn't even that , this isn't even a self .
I mean , I guess there is a self loathing , definitely , there's definitely a self loathing , but he's not punishing himself . No , he's the eye gouge , as you know a lot , oedipus Well . And so , like , his desire , it seems to be , is to die . Why does he just die ? I mean just kill yourself .
He had a gun .
Like , and that was also . I was unclear to me . It's unclear to me from these two episodes exactly how much the black man in the sweater vest did versus what Pierce was doing , because I don't . It might be like I just had a thought , because this guy had been Pierce's mentee like and kind of adopted son .
It looked like , I mean , cause he did , yeah , from the picture . From the picture it was tiny and so maybe this is in some ways a jealousy thing . He's jealous of Lucifer . Oh , because Pierce is now trying to figure out Lucifer and not paying attention to this kid and he's not a kid anymore . 40s 40s .
Yeah , maybe , but then , like , the whole chronology doesn't quite make sense because he was successful in trapping Lucifer Like . And then the girl , maggie with the reservoir becomes a parent . His , yeah , no , that becomes a parent before he's let out or after no , he . So she was kidnapped while he was in jail , while he was in that meat pack .
Yeah , yeah , so then that plan doesn't hang together .
Yeah .
Well , unless he had ways of getting information like I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that he had contacts to like send a message even while he was in jail , because all it needed was a message . True , oh , you're saying while the centerman was in jail ? Centerman was in jail . Was Lucifer ? Was Lucifer ?
No , but Lucifer wasn't in the meatpacking plant when the girl was . So when did , in the chronology , when did Lucifer get out ? Versus trying to track down Maggie's location ? I think well , because I think what happened was so he got lured into the meatpacking thing . He gets out in time to see video , video . The video , no , no , no , he gets .
It's to see Pierce and Chloe apprehend right . Right cause he calls and that's how she knows what he looks like . Cause he calls and says what he looks like , right , yeah , and so , and then and I think it's that evening that Maggie Cole is kidnapped . Yeah , right , okay , okay , I'm with you .
So here's the thing , though he must have known that Lucifer wasn't actually gonna get remain in the meat packing plant If the plan was to have Lucifer abduct him . Well , but the thing is , that was I'm thinking that was his backup plan . That was what I mean .
That's the plan he came up with while he was in holding and he got a message to Maggie Cole like all right , you have to do this . Oh , I see . So like he came up with that on the fly . But , frankly , the fact that you and I have to sit and go like wait a minute , what Like ?
I was even like , as I was thinking of it , prepping for our conversation today , I was even thinking about like did he ? Was he even actually the trigger man ? Or was it like cause Pierce like shows up after and we do hear gunshots , but we don't actually see him shoot the mob guys .
So did Pierce like shoot the guys and then come back out and meet her with food . Is that possible ? Like cause ? Like the black guy in the sweater vest , like didn't look like big enough to do the horrible things that were done post-mortem to the two ? Yeah , yeah , although I guess I don't know , I don't want to think about that . So , okay , you know what ?
That's interesting . It didn't occur to me . I thought that everything attributed to the center man in these two stories were , it's what , a black guy in sweater vest . But if they were Pierce and actually if it was Pierce who did the Maggie Cole thing , so in order to make sure that his adopted son got out .
So if Pierce , because he is the actual center man and apologize for the spoilers , I don't want to rewatch these . No , I'm like rewatching them with that in mind that maybe Pierce is behind all of this and not . So maybe the only way that this mentee went rogue was in taunting Lucifer , and he wasn't , although he still gouged his own eyes out .
Also , can I say , I'm sorry , I do not believe that the mojo works through a television screen . No , me neither . Like what the fuck ? No , like I have trouble believing that it would work via zoom call Like no , no , I don't .
What do ?
you desire . I don't even know where to look . I need to look at the camera . I'm looking at the camera , but like , I'm not looking into your eyes . Right , right , right , right . No , that doesn't make sense to me . I mean , if he has to see his eyes , then how could it possibly work through ? Like a photograph , absolutely .
And presumably there is a camera somewhere that is beaming Lucifer to the false thinner man , but still , but he'd have to look directly and it doesn't make any sense . No , I agree , I agree , it doesn't make sense . So , yeah , that's on that . That is my considered literary opinion . So okay , so here's a few .
These two episodes bring up a lot of things for me , questions , obviously .
Another one was like Chloe's hunch that Lucifer would have taken him to the property with the best view , all like all of that , like the fact that it is very convenient that now we learn that Lucifer has lots of properties around the LA area which we have never heard about before or since , especially like when we had the like I'm gonna be homeless because the
developer thing with Lux , like that is very awfully convenient . And like Chloe saying , like I know where they went , because that's the kind of like irony or whatever , that's not the word that she uses .
Like it makes sense that she would know Lucifer that well , but the actual conclusion , like I don't see it with the Lucifer that we know for two seasons and a little Like I actually don't see that Like it sounds really good . And he did say imagine being in LA and not being able to see the sunset .
But I don't know , I could see that being like he doesn't even realize that . That's why he did this , but she does , if you know what I mean . Yeah , maybe I don't know . They didn't sell it to me , they didn't connect the dots in a way that it sounds yeah , that didn't bother me as much . I mean , it was just like whatever .
I dislike the way that Lucifer and Chloe are presented in these two stories because , well , for one thing , like Lucifer being responsible for active torturing of a living soul , I mean , he's kind of done it before , has he ? Yeah , remember when he was trying to figure out who took the wings ?
And we see Agus lure that young man up to the penthouse and then , like waterboard him , drown him in her crotch In the hot tub . We didn't see any blood that time and it was like it was . It was pretty protacted , it was , you know , just enough on camera for like a minute and a half . That's fair , but he wasn't the only . He was like .
You know , she was like this is like the 10th guy this week . Yeah , whatever it was . So we have seen him do it . We have seen him do that before , yeah , or at least through maze , through maze , it's the , the bamboo under fingernails , one , oh God , yeah .
Yeah .
So that , and then what Chloe does to break him out is so distasteful . The way she manipulates all of her colleagues , yes , and to break out a Hardened criminal , no . It's just yeah , to save a , and I get it Girl it's to save , save that woman's life . There's got to be a better way , you know . And there's no , there's no consequences for it .
Well , because ultimately her lieutenant wanted her to do it , yeah , but there's no consequences for him either . I mean , that's just got to be , yeah , the chief or something above him . Oh yeah , yeah , and I mean poor Dan . Yes , I know it's not a severed head . Oh God , it's ticking . So yeah , yeah , poor Dan .
He's very put upon in between that and Mrs Pachinsky , oh man , which , I have to say , I am very Sympathetic to , the like I was going to call Mrs Pachinsky , but I can't keep track of these random days off of school , like oh my . God right , yeah , that was like , yeah , it was frigging plausible . I totally understand how that happens .
The eye gouging , no , but the random day off of school no , baby , I get that . Like , random days off of school are up there with spirit week , oh my God . Like things like why are you talking about that ? Why are you torturing us this way ? And the like 95 things you have to do in the last two weeks .
Like , yes , the children are expected to come to school dressed as a renocerous week and make sure they have a slice of Hawaiian pizza with them . It looks like yeah , yeah , I can't keep track . Yeah , yeah , they didn't make our parents do this in the 80s either matter , we were just the always the odd kids out . I don't know , I don't know , I don't know .
So , anyway .
Yeah , that was that . That that was so completely plausible and reasonable . And I love OK , I love Trixie and Charlotte . That was adorable . I have to say Trixie would not be such a cheerleader for her parents Love lives .
No , it's cute in the TV show , but it's adorable , but I think that in how it works then anyhow goes yeah , no , yeah , you are the best wingman ever . Yeah , great , it's great . Great line , great line , yeah , yeah . So I mean I overthink .
Since you brought Charlotte up and and since our last episode we talked about the copaganda , like this notion that defense attorneys are the bad guys is up , so like like that , and she's on the prosecution , so now she's a good guy yeah . Oh my God , Talk about copaganda . I'm sorry I'm cursing so much .
It's OK , it's , it's , it's worthy of cursing Like I missed it the first time around , maybe because I watched them so fast . But yeah , and there's . There's the halo effect too of you know , like this is the protagonist and they are good .
So therefore what they do is good , and I know that I have accepted real bullshit from from various characters because of that kind of halo effect . When I like it's not until like later or even years later , that go like oh no , it's not OK that I liked that . Yeah , yeah , that really stood out to me .
Yeah , that's stuck , I think , because the first time around I I just heard like she's not getting mob bosses off anymore . Instead , you know , like she's actually going after the real bad guys , but this time they actually use the phrases I heard . I heard they use the .
It's obviously the same piece of video , but I actually heard defense and prosecution in ways that I was just glossing over the first time I watched . And now I'm like whoa , yeah , whoa , yeah , it's not . Well , and even the what is Frankie the knife ? Was that his name ?
The mobsters reaction to seeing her and like he's like how are the kids and like I have no doubt that that guy did shady stuff , but he's also a human being really loved that kid who died .
You know like and the kid was a kid who I don't know maybe he'd seen Scarface too often , I don't know like decided that he wanted to be the do this , which I can't imagine having that ambition , but like he was , just you know he's a kid and and so , like Having someone like Charlotte defend him .
It's just as necessary , you know like , I mean , that is how our judicial system works , like , like some of our presidents actually , you know , created that for us . John Adams defended the British guy , what I don't remember the details of the case , but like defending the accused Is actually essential stone . Yeah , it is , yeah , yeah .
And remembering Well and we were given like Immediate reminders of the fact that the person that you would be defending is a human being , yeah , who cares about people and , like there's actually , we don't see him do anything nefarious , yeah . In the whole two episodes that he's present , but the only one because he's dead . He dies in the first one .
Yeah , and like that's . The other thing is like there's . No , I don't think I realized first time I watched this that all of the guys in there were dead . Yeah , like I think I must have , but it just glosses over so quickly . I'm like those are all people , mm , hmm , the body counts pretty high in that one . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
So , yeah , okay , not our favorite episodes . Not , definitely , not , definitely not Okay . So Linda and Amanda deal , yes , and also , let's talk about Mays a little bit . Not great episodes . I love the conversation between Mays and Lucifer .
Through the closed door , all the girls trapped in there , like of course I was , oh man , and Ellis's delivery , when he's like exasperated but knows he needs to . Like do this and the other , tell me what's on your face .
And the way that they actually the cinematography of it too , because to show us that they are on either side of a closed door , like the camera only holds the one at a time , which is really I don't know , it was really effective .
That was a great scene , yeah , and I also appreciated that he gave her good advice and like granted , it's the advice he always gives . Like what is it you desire ? But , yes , and I mean his point like so you don't want him , so he can't have anybody else .
Like pointing that out is like that's actually pretty big of Lucifer in terms of cause , like his whole . Like what do you want ? Like has the capacity to turn people into objects , but that statement actually grounded a many deals per agency , yeah .
And not objectness .
Yeah , and it helped May's get to the point where it's like you know what , it's not that he's seeing someone , it's that he's seeing my best friend and that I just it feels weird to me and that's understandable , that's a reasonable I like , I , I mean , it's been so long since I dated anybody but I'm just trying to think , oh man , old married ladies we are
such old married ladies . All right , my husband and I got divorced and my best friend and her husband got divorced . It would feel weird If my now ex-husband started dating my best friend . I can't see that happening . Also , totally out of character for both of us .
I mean , I'm not sure , I mean , I'm not sure , I mean , I'm not sure , I mean , I'm not sure , I mean , I'm not sure . I mean , I'm not sure , I mean , I'm not sure , I mean I'm not sure . Totally out of character for both of them , like not each other's type at all .
No , she's also about to be ordained as an , as an Episcopal priest , which is awesome , okay , okay , okay , okay , okay . Completely unrelated , okay . So there there's that . And then a men , a deal and Linda . That feels like it makes sense and it makes sense . I think that the two of them are the two of them are ?
The two of them are both really beautiful , like the scene with the two of them on the beach , which was very intimate , but not sexual , romantic or sexual in any way . Yeah , that just make it . Yeah , I think they built it In a way that I believe it Like a lot of times in these ensembles .
When the new pairing , you're like , would you run out of ideas ? Yeah , yeah , but these two actually it , it , it made , it makes sense . I will say I think it's just like . It's like . It's like , it's like it's like a joke from Lucifer For everyone to be laughing about .
Then angel school yeah , cause that was just like it wasn't like it wasn't that funny the first time , and then it's repeated Twice more . Yeah , and it's just like you couldn't . Seriously , you guys are really good . Come up with a better joke .
Yeah , yeah , so yeah , that that's I , that ensemble thing where , like you have a sudden pairing and just like , spend the wheel , who's up next ? Yeah , but this wasn't , this , isn't like that . No , they , they grounded it , it built it , which makes me think that they , they had the things that come later , they plan that they planned ahead of .
Yeah , I think so too . I think so too . Yeah , I do want to say and this is completely unrelated to Lucifer , but I went to a roller derby boot camp . I remember you were about three years ago . Were you like Shayna Punisher , or something like that ?
I was like , I'm not gonna do that , I'm not gonna do that , I'm not gonna do that , I'm not gonna do that , I'm not gonna do that . So I was . My friend , jen , said that I could have her name , which she came up with because she was never going to do it , and it was Shayna Punish , which is a pun on the Yiddish Shayna pun , which means pretty face .
The problem is , nobody got it , nobody had any idea , but I was proud of Jen . Yeah , not not so many Jewish roller derby girls . I was like , yeah , I know so , but I went , I fell on my tailbone three times and just bruised it , but it was a pain Unlike any I have experienced and I have delivered to children with non-medicated childbirth , yeah , yeah .
And then , and I was like , but I'm still going to , you know , I'm going to when I heal up . Let me come back . Well , at the very end of the , the , the roller derby , like boot camp , like I was being treated like a real woman so I was . I was so happy about that .
I was just like , yeah , I was just like , okay , I'm going to get this thing back and do it . And then I really really stood up while still on our skates to take a picture .
And there was a woman there who was way more talented than me on roller skates and like picked everything up , no problem , and was also probably like at least seven or eight years younger than me , maybe even as much as a decade , and she stood up wrong . I can't do this . I cannot do it . Those . I am fragile .
I know the ways in which I can destroy myself . Yeah , those women are bad asses .
It really are I wanted .
I want the . The whimsical badassery is my thing , yeah . Yeah , yeah , I have to go in some direction of a , then on wheels , yeah , and actually that's why it fits so nicely with Trixie . Actually , I do . I do believe that the tricks that you got was into roller derby . That makes total sense , things that they have around Trixie , yeah , yeah .
So , and there were some fun , fun puns with the sin bin and the one , whatever the other things were , which actually is the name of the second , the second episode . I also . I love the like it gets the beer and yeah , yeah , that was , that was good plan and it was a good plan .
And when Chloe's like really now and he's like always yeah , actually , speaking of him responding always in I don't know if it's earlier in that episode or in center man , but it was like , you know , I'm not sure if it was in the first episode , but it was in the first episode , but it was in the first episode and it was really , really interesting and I
think that's something that you know . I think it's really interesting to see what he's doing when he's having the party In his penthouse and there's the Piñata of the angel and the woman with the blindfold on like stumbled backward into him , oh , and he said and she says this is hard and he says always .
And then he says let me help you with your stick and he like breaks the pinata and like that's right Because like always ready yes , that seems to be in the character hard . Yeah , I'm guessing he doesn't have much of a . Do you remember that ? It's a refractory period where you know how long it takes between to get there again ?
I'm thinking like that's got to be pretty short . I mean , he's got an angelic metabolism . So , yeah , yeah , I just that . That little joke was like that . I think it was like a fluff in Uendo , it was just a lot . But I was like , really , I don't think it was , I don't think it was meant to be .
I think it would be like a human lethario would respond the same way .
Yes , I guess that's how I was .
I was taking it not as in , like this is factual , I guess . So I don't know it was . It was just a moment that like gave me pause , that I thought I might provide for fluff , but anyway , so that because he says it twice , he says to about the this is hard and then about really is , is this really the time ? Or whatever about the beer .
Yeah , I do .
When they are in the roller derby rank . I'm sorry the refs would stop things . Random people were getting on the rank and then the ref gets pulled out of the ring . Yeah , yeah .
Back like yeah .
And then like Helen , a hand basket , just like going all over the place , like it , just no , yeah , yeah . And people are like , like the girls are still . Yeah , I agree , I really like that , but you know , it made for made for a fun , fun moment . Yeah , yeah , for sure .
So , okay , well , I am watching the time because I actually have some place that I have to be . So I think we've made it clear that these are not our favorite episodes of all time . And were you watching for fluff ? I think there were a couple of fluffy moments . Oh gosh , the .
I noticed another eyebrow from Tom and I cannot remember where it was , but it was another . Like just a quick , and it just , I'm so , I'm so proud of his eyebrows . The , oh . The other fluff is the Menadil and Linda , where , like , they kiss and she says I can't , it's amazing . He's like , yeah , it's probably a bad idea .
And then they kiss again and then he apologizes and then they kiss again , yeah , and so I was just thinking about how , like , I don't know , there's something super hot about that , just being like , but we can't , yeah , yeah , well , we've been socialized . We've been socialized for that to be hot , the sort of forbidden romance , yeah , yeah , yeah , for sure .
And the thing the fluff for me is an overthinking it . Fluff is about Ella and her like when she wants , when she's trying to get Pierce to open up to her about the dead brother and clearly , well , so you say that Boo Normal , which is one of the bonus episodes of this season , was actually from two and got pushed forward and that's why it's bonus .
But they I don't think they had that in mind when they wrote that scene , because she's like my dog when I was eight . But we learn sorry spoilers . We learn in that episode that she was in a terrible car accident as a young person and almost died . And like I just assumed that somebody did die .
Maybe it , maybe that's actually there , we'll get to it and maybe I'm misremembering , but I don't know . It just doesn't seem like the corgi would have been the story that she told .
It was just to like and her like tough as nails , street cred , detroit , you know , like I just I don't think the corgi would have been the story that she told to try to get him to open up about his brother . So that was just a little , a little bit of fluff .
And Amy Garcia's delivery of rejection , of feeling rejected when he says Lopez , just stop talking , which is what makes Lucifer say what's going on here ? Something's weird . Amy Garcia is like I don't know the way she shuts down and kind of like looks around to see if anybody notices . I felt it . I was there with her in that rejection .
I actually I wanted to bring up that moment too , just because you know we've talked about how Tom willing is little wooden , that I felt him too .
Now , knowing why he reacted that way , cause like he'd just been responsible for the death of someone who we considered a friend , and so like it is completely comprehensible why he would snap , and you can feel that in his delivery and that like I don't have , I just don't have anything for this right now , please stop .
And so like , not that I feel for Pierce , but just that I appreciate the acting in that scene on both sides . Did we see his tattoo prior to this ? Yeah , prior to these episodes ? I don't know .
I mean they make a point of pointing it out when they're , when they're walking to try and find Maggie , and well , and we see it also when he's carrying that table and Chloe's standing there drooling . Is that what she's doing ? I didn't think she was drooling .
I thought she was like wait , he said his shot , his side still hurt from the gunshot and now he's carrying the table . What the hell's going on with it ? That's what I thought . I thought it was cause like his arms look great , oh I , I . I saw confusion on her face rather than lust . Hmm , cause at this point she's like annoyed with him .
He denied the personal day without having even considered it or didn't deny it , but like put her off and then like made her feel guilty about the , or , in the opposite order first he made her feel guilty about the gunshot it still hurts like hell , or whatever he said and then , like brushed her off when she asked for a personal day , which in her mind , she
never asked for . I mean , she told us as much . So when , when , when I saw him walking with the thing , I was like he has a gunshot wound to the torso and he's carrying table . Hmm , like something isn't right here . That's what I saw on her face . I am cursing a lot today . I'm really sorry folks . I don't know what we're talking about . Yeah , I feel .
I think part of it , cause I watched the previous previously on I usually don't know , but the previously , and so they were really focusing in the previously on on the like Ella being like he's into you .
Yeah , yeah .
And so , and so it felt like they had set it up for it to be . So I I also watched that . I saw that more as like seeing him pursuing her , not the other way around , like when he shows up at the stakeout with food , with the food .
Yeah .
Or when he ends up being the one driving the van , the bomb squad van , like that , and not giving her a heart , like that felt more like they were asking us to see him pursuing her , not necessarily the other way around . But yeah , oh , one last thing .
Okay , first time you see this Lucifer out of nowhere , when he wouldn't kill the person he thought was cinnamon , stabs Pierce right like right in the sternum , right in the sternum , and sits and makes himself a drink and then just keeps like looking over his shoulder at the body .
Yeah , and excuse me , and we're sitting there and it keeps going and going and going . We're like what the hell ? Right , what's wrong ? What's the what ? Yeah , yeah , yeah . So I'll , I'll give the , the show props for that . That was yeah , that was well played yeah , well played , yeah . So we have overthunk it . Enough for these two very difficult episodes .
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