Lucifer 307 + 308 "Off the Record" & "Chloe Does Lucifer"

Yeah , I got a lot to say , oh , so do I . So today we're talking about 307 and 308 off the record , and Chloe does Lucifer , yes , so let's take them in order . Let's take them in order . Well , we'll start with .

You were just telling me that we had thought that maybe off the record was push forward out of season two , but now in rewatch we're thinking maybe not . Yeah , well , because I used to know which four were from season two that got pushed to season three , and then I think it was last time I was naming them and I came in with five .

Yeah , yeah , yeah , if I included this one , and I realized I think no , this was always intended to be in season three and you can tell because it bookends nicely . Yeah , they talk to one another with Rhys' death . Yeah , and that makes it clear to me that , even though this is a pattern interrupter of an episode , which is true of the other four .

It still was intended to be in the season . Yeah , I think that makes sense . It is definitely a pattern interrupt .

It's really interesting in terms of the story construction , in terms of some of the things that I love about the show , ie the dramatic irony when we know something that the characters don't , especially in rewatch , when there's even greater dramatic irony because I know the reveal at the end .

But even without that , even without that , just watching it , it was solid storytelling . It's an amazing story . Yeah , just really solid storytelling . From you know , there are several reveals and also there's dramatic irony .

So , because from the beginning we know that Lucifer is the man who's sleeping with Rhys' wife , but it takes a minute for it to be revealed that Linda is the ex-wife , and then there just was several moments of like well , and the fact that it took Lucifer until the very end , the last , yeah , the very end to realize that Rhys was talking about him .

Even to the way that , once you have seen the whole thing and get the final reveal that this is in fact a hell loop , realizing that Lucifer is explaining in the hell loop to Rhys how hell works , like I don't know . There's something so meta about that loop that is really satisfying .

It really is , particularly with the ends where you pull out of that door and so like he could get up and walk out .

It's only when the one person he truly cares about gets hurt because of his actions that he can see it .

And that actually , it struck me that when he went to see the serial killer , alvin Kopitsky , the serial killer had more self-knowledge than Rhys did , like he was more able to be , like I knew this day would come , and yeah , and conscience , because he said I'm on my meds now , I'm trying to be better , but do what you got , it's really hard . Yeah .

The fact that in that interaction it was the supposedly stable , like I don't want to use the word sane and insane or anything like that but the supposedly stable person , the one who did not have tinfoil over his windows , who was baiting the unstable one to return to his like evil practices , and four at that point , no , he does know that he's the devil at

that point , right , yes , yes , yeah . And Alvin Kopitsky even is somewhat sympathetic , even though what he did was horrific , totally warped , but , yeah , well , they made him a serial killer . Who had . The motive was I don't want to use the word sympathetic , because that's too , it's a step too far .

Comprehensible , but comprehensible , yeah , or you know it was it was . It was a reaction to an injustice of sorts , and obviously murder is unjust .

Yes , yeah , like nothing that any of those people do did deserve to death , right , but the motive was actually like a warped sense of some sort of justice or truth , as opposed to just like in the future we meet a serial killer who's just psychopathic , yeah , and there's , and there's , there's nothing there's , there's nothing nice and righteous that's been warped .

He's just warped Right . And when he says , you know , like I'm trying to be good , it's really hard , and like he has , he has the self knowledge , he has the understanding to recognize that what he was doing was not acceptable .

Yeah , I mean to say , to say the least , right , the there's something very similar between Reese and the serial killer and that is in some ways , a refusal to accept something . It just is that you don't want .

And I've been thinking about that a lot with with Reese , just in part because I've been thinking about how human beings respond to awful or unpalatable truths , and you can either accept them and continue and move on with that information , or you can say I reject this .

There must be a way around it , and so past two years have shown that there's a lot of people , yeah , and I mean , if we're going to overthink it , since that's what we do , like as you're talking , I'm realizing , not accepting truth is what causes our suffering .

That is the cause of suffering , which is really interesting now that I'm like layering that over Lucifer . I think the cause of Lucifer suffering is often that he refuses to accept , yes , what is absolutely true . We see that in the next episode , although I don't want to get there quite yet . Yeah , so and that , so I want to .

I want to take this a little bit deeper and it's going to be a little dark , so apologies . So I've been thinking about this episode in terms of the events of last week . We're recording this a week after the Evaldi tragedy , and so there's there's a couple of things that it brings up now .

The refusal to accept truth , that is something that we have seen certain members of our culture fall to in the wake of these tragedies , like , oh no , like good guy with a gun , would have said would have fixed us you know , or even the horrific like the Alex Jones . They were actors .

If you could believe that it was crisis actors , it was a false flag , that it was a conspiracy , and then children died , children who died in fear , like OK .

And it was only after I realized how far these people were willing to go to protect that truth in their heads that I realized no , no , I can't have sympathy for someone who refuses to accept the truth . So I'm thinking about that in terms of with Reese and how difficult and how frustrated Linda was .

You know , you see her , she's trying to be as gentle as she can be until she finally loses her temper and says I've been patient because I care about you , but this is over , stop , sign the papers . And even then he does it just to be able to get to the next tactic , get to the next strategy .

And there is no negotiating or working with someone like that . And it's completely understandable why their marriage would fall apart .

You know , and I have no doubt that they truly did care for each other and that he truly loved her and she truly loved him , but his inability to let go of anything would be impossible to live with , and I feel like we're seeing that on a larger scale in our society , where we have people who , for whatever reason , are encouraged to not accept the truth , and

how difficult that is to live with . Yeah , so that's one thing that brought up . And then the other thing that this brought up is again specifically , it's not shootings in general , but the Evaldi shooting .

The story from the police department has changed and changed and changed and changed , and I have seen some journalists talking about journalistic practice , which is that you treat police statements as not needing to be fact checked . I'm not a journalist exactly . I'm a journalist adjacent because I write about money .

I didn't get a journalism degree so I don't have like those best practices and things like that . But I do , you know , I do live in the world of . You know , if you have a quote , you have to , you know , fact check it and blah , blah , blah , blah , blah .

And so I've been thinking about that fact and how I just accepted that , like I knew that that was part of what's what journalists do .

And I was thinking about it in the interaction between Chloe and Reese , when she , she says to him like I do something that actually benefits the world , and considering the fact that there are so many abuses of power that are only brought to light because of people like Reese , it just it hits very different this week than it would have if I , if we'd done

this three weeks ago . You know , it's interesting too , within this episode , thinking about that interaction of the cops and the journalists which in this episode , is definitely sort of antagonistic as opposed to what you're talking about . But there is also very clear sort of performative nature to Chloe's behavior while Reese is paying attention .

Like you see her cringe at Lucifer's antics in ways that are we are definitely meant to understand . She's cringing because the reporter is there .

She hands him the gloves , like you always do and he no , I don't , and he's in his pocket when she goes to find him , and like I need my sober consultants , although that may have just been because they were still early in there with their working . Yeah , come to think of it .

And for the showrunners , that was all about Chloe's character , right , like and you know , I mean they even say it out loud like , oh sure , former B movie actress now with this cookie consultant , like she's very aware of her image and how she comes off and and and needing to like overcompensate for the fact that she took her top off when she was 19 or

whatever . So , like , for the showrunners , that was all about like the character . But I do think it's interesting to look at it as a you know , maybe a bit of a microcosm to the bigger issues that you're that you're pointing to .

Well , and it gets to like one of the things that I mean I've been feeling just emotionally nauseated since last week and one of the things that I have been spending time thinking about is the amount of propaganda I consume and how , if there's going to be a point in time where I can't watch Lucifer anymore , you know , and like I stopped watching Brooklyn

Nine-Nine after . George Floyd was murdered because I just couldn't watch it anymore . I can't , you know , it's not funny anymore . It's not funny silly hijinks , as much as I love all of the actors and the cast and everything , and the writing's pretty damn good too , and it's Michael Shore who you and I both love , but I can't do it , I can't revisit it .

Just thinking about the amount of reverence that is just baked into our cultural DNA towards a state program that carries out extra judicial killings with no consequences and traces its roots back to slave catchers . Slave catchers , yeah , why , why , what , how ? I think you know the why , I know all of it , but it's also it's , you know .

You know it's interesting that actually we don't have time to get into this , but I'm going to be thinking about this a little bit because yes , yes , yes to all of those things . I'm thinking about the specific propaganda that I appreciate personally , and it is this mold like Castle , which this is . Castle . Lucifer and Castle are like the same show .

It's just , you know , here he's the literal devil and there he's a , you know crazy murder mystery writer , but but that sort of like free spirited , you know , larger than life personality , not a cop consultant .

This is the version of Capricana that I really like , which I'm like . What is it ? What is it ? What do you call it when you put yourself ?

female characters who had like equal romantic partners . So my boys and I've been watching Star Wars . We watched the original trilogy . My eldest now wants to watch the other six and I'm like , yeah , no , no , we don't have to watch Such a job .

Oh , my goodness , at the point when Luke , you know , learns like he has a sister , and it's like , search your feelings . We see only other woman in the entire galaxy . We see one other woman in the entire three films , one . So like , yeah , of course that's a sister . Who else would it be Right , because it's never met another woman ? Well , xanth .

This is totally far afield , but watching it now like the caregiving that she is required to do , even as the like the toughest , like she , like the toughest nails stuff , like she has it , you know , like get out of my way , you walking carpet or whatever , but then like her whole frigging nerf herner , her planet just got destroyed , her planet and she's comforting

Luke oh , we met yesterday . These go so like that's actually this is tough as nails . But then there's also this caregiving that she's got to do Everybody's mother . Yeah , and so I got to that scene in a new hope . I turned to my kids and I said what she is doing is called emotional labor .

Remember , she just lost her planet and his friend , who he's only known a couple of days , has just died . It's really inappropriate that she should feel the need to comfort him . Yes , which is ? You know , actually , now that I'm thinking about like Chloe actually tries to be a caregiver for Lucifer . Repeatedly , she does Talk to me . Tell me what's going on .

I can help you if you don't talk to me . Yeah , and you know what that appeals to me too . Like my , my , my favorite Lucifer moments are when he's devastated , which is just freaked up as that .

I mean like , and and say Reese quite honestly , like his devastation is attractive , you know , in a weird way in that like , not that I like , I condone or think anything is okay with what he's doing . And then the fricking leave Linda alone .

She clearly has made herself clear , but yet you know seeing , like , when , when his assistants like , hey , your wife's in there and he gets oh , oh , and he fixes his hair and he's excited , and and then that devastation after she's like , makes herself clear , like there's something very I don't know .

I don't know how to describe it , but just it's it , it's a pathos . It's a pathos , I think . Yes , it's a specific kind of pathos that we have been trained to react to . Yes , yeah , that's definitely social conditioning , that we would react to that specific pathos . Yes , and I like I don't know how to root that out it's been there pretty deep .

So to get back to this episode and the way that it is , it's set up and that that , like what we're talking about , about propaganda and things like that , I wonder if we and the generations that come after us are going to be more questioning of things . So I don't know if you can recall this , but I was like four , I mean , I was tiny .

I wanted to be a police officer for a short period of time . Do you have any memory of that ? I don't think so . Do you remember ? Why ? Do you remember why ? Because you , you often had like a very specific reason why you would want something . I wanted to help people .

And so I remember being at mom's store and telling one of her customers that I want to be a police officer . And they're like that means you'd have to carry a gun , are you okay with that ? And mom was furious . She was like she's a four year old and I have been thinking about that . Like that stuck with me .

Like you know , here it is 39 years later and I remember that and I am wondering like where did that come from ? Because that's just the general like kind of crap bullshit that people put on kids , like , oh , you want to do that , you know there's no money in it .

Or oh , you want to do that , like you know you're going to have to do this , or like I'm like maybe they're , you know I very much doubt , because I says , as I remember it , they were white customers of our mother's art gallery .

I doubt they were very concerned about police brutality , but they could have been aging hippies and so and I'm wondering , like you know , if my kids were that little now and we're saying they wanted to grow up to a police officer , I know I would not be like , oh honey , that would be great .

I might say , oh , if you want to help people , you know there's lots of helping professions , you know there's social work and teaching and like kind of steer them and have the deeper conversations as they get older . But I have been wondering about that , if that the mystique is going to be changing in some way .

No question , I mean , it already is like that there are recruitment problems in every single police department in a major city in this country . I think I know there are in Baltimore . Yeah , okay , okay .

I'm going to bring us back quickly to the very end of that , this episode off the record , because you mentioned it the pan out when we see the room and you have noted to me before , because in this episode Lucifer says the doors aren't locked , you can leave anytime and no one ever does .

And this is the like , this is the redditor question , this is the question , the overthinking question that everybody's like well , what happens to the psychopaths who feel no guilt ? And you have an answer because of this episode , so lay it on me . So when you pan out , you see that there is no lock on this door .

It's open , but there are doors that are locked .

One of them is oh , is that what it is ? Yeah , one of them is not the DSM and one of them is , and I can't remember which is which .

I think I don't know , I don't , but for the people for whom that switch is broken , that empathy switch , and they genuinely cannot or do not feel the empathy and guilt for hurting others , I mean , yeah , those people you just listed , I think are those people , and I think there are actually a lot more of them in there's .

There's one that we know personally , unfortunately , that is true , but she's not there yet . I was thinking of somebody else . So there's at least two that we know personally . Actually , I think that is .

I just think that's a really interesting point , because that is the thing that like spins people up on Reddit about this vision of the afterlife , and at least suddenly , the show runners actually gave us an answer with those chains . So , yeah , ok , let's move on to the other episode , chloe does Lucifer ?

OK , now this is the episode I have a very low embarrassment , secondhand embarrassment tolerance . I think I've said that before . In the episode where Lucifer is in the mental institution that awful date I can't watch . But I sat through it for the rewatch and he's coaching her at the top meat party I said I'm not like I physically like no , I reject this .

She's like can't do it . I know there are a bunch of people like oh my God , it's so funny . I'm like I feel like I'm dying . So funny , it hurts , so bad . That secondhand embarrassment is just like I feel twisted up inside and so , like I even this one . I was like I'll watch it because you know we're going to be talking about it .

I was like nope , don't need to see it , I cannot do that . I don't , I don't have that . I don't have the reaction to that one . I do get that , I definitely get that . That's why I was never a Seinfeld fan , because that's the entire humor premise for this . I felt like I just can't . I can't but this , for whatever reason .

It didn't bother me so much , I guess , because ultimately what that train wreck proves is that Chloe actually knows who she is and what she , you know , like it . So it actually like validates Chloe despite the embarrassment , and so I guess maybe that's why it feels a little less inside twisty to me .

Yeah , yeah , I will say , as I'm overthinking it , this episode . It's got me thinking about .

So like , the ultimate truth that Lucifer doesn't want to accept in this one is that fancy , sophisticated people are not better in any way than boring shoes and in some ways are worse , and that makes sense , sort of in the arc of the show and like how debauchery is and whatever fun loving Lucifer is , and also he is thousands of years old and spent most of

that time in hell , where all of those sophisticated fancy people are I would think a large majority , especially of the , the ones who do end up there are the frauds , right , yeah , yeah , so the sophisticated fancy people that he would have known as souls in hell , he would have known were dumbasses right , who were just pretending .

I well , I could see him saying like well , those aren't actually just like . It's the . No , true , scott's been fallacy , you know , it's like oh , they're not really sophisticated fancy people because they ended up here . If they were , they wouldn't end up here .

Yeah , maybe , I mean maybe for sure , and that's that's what I've been playing in my head a little bit since I rewatched the second episode , that and also just like holding on to the , the memory , the , the monopoly and the face painting and the lollipops , which becomes actually a touchstone in the future that he comes back to , and thinking about this moment in

sort of the arc of their friendship and romance . You know where he , he ran away and and then you know and like just remembering too , as we talked about on the show it's been several episodes now , but when that moment with the Poisoner , serial killer who poisoned Chloe , when he was like this is real , isn't it , you know ?

And then later when he was like I will do any , everything in my power to fix this , and she says I know from her hospital bed , like the strength of that bond that has been tested and and stretched and whatever , and then the sort of domestic pleasantness of the monopoly game , and it's still platonic and it's still like it's .

It's just , I'm not complaining , I'm just kind of holding all of it , like this moment , as a touchstone which he starts to see , but not enough to actually like fully embrace it , because the final scene , he stole the little shoe piece but we watch him take his robe off in the reflection , on the , on the piano with another woman who he knows won't be

interested in monopoly or Well , he , you know , I do feel like at this point in their relationship , his understanding is that they can't be together in any way other than platonically . Because , well , that's his understanding , because of his limiting beliefs .

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , because the way he's thinking about the fact that she was a miracle baby , that he believes it actually , this , while we're thinking it , his thinking that's the only way is actually , if we're going to be as generous as possible , him respecting consent , yeah , and , and recognizing that , because she was created and put in his path , she's

incapable of actually withholding consent and therefore she cannot give authentic consent because of the nature of her existence . Yeah yeah , I'm , I like that , I like that view of it .

You know , one thing I forgot to mention in the off the record there's a very tiny moment when they find the plastic surgeon who has the scar on his face and Dan is saying to Lucifer like that was good detective work , you realize that you know his scar made him resent the people around him , and Lucifer goes from smiling to like a , very briefly like , his

face falls and it's you know , he's connecting it to himself , like how you know his own face and all of that . And it's right after that that he starts like brutalizing , talking about police brutality , the plastic surgeon and lets his face be seen by Reese , although he has no idea that Reese is there . So that connects to me with what's going on here .

Is it showing like now that was early on in the chronology of Lucifer's story ?

So I gotta say one thing like nothing against the actor who plays him , because I think he does a very nice job . But I do not find the guy playing Mack the , the speedle-time objective , as attractive at all .

And they put a picture of him next to Kim and I was just like I'm really not seeing where he's a pretty boy and she's like like she's not seeing this , she's a plain James . Yeah , like she looks pretty nice to me . Oh , that's funny , that's funny . So , so I'm like I don't really I'm not clear on this .

Okay , okay , but again , like I don't want to , I don't want to give that poor actor complex . Well , thankfully it's unlikely , he will see it , let's see this . But I do love hey there , hi , mack , did they let you keep any of the pictures of yourself or the head that looked like it had gum on it .

It looked like a Keith Herring painting , like comes to life . It was weird , it was weird . So , and then there was the Roy Lichtenstein version of his head . Yeah , yeah , I like that one .

So I noticed , anytime you've got a character who's got lots of pictures of themselves , like him and Jensen Glory from the trip to Stavytown Like , is that a common thing in LA ? Is that ? I don't know , but that is definitely shorthand for someone . Yes , yeah , a fraud , yeah , okay . So there's something in Chloe does Lucifer ? That I want to talk about .

I mean , there are other things , there's several things , but there's one thing that bugs me , okay , and that was the I've turned so many men gay . They call me the skillet . Like that whole like joke line that came up several times . Like Oscar Wilde was straight when Lucifer met him . Like nope , doesn't work .

Like I , that's another one of those they want their cake and eat it too , like we saw in the baby carrot episode . Like it's not , that's not representation . I actually found that a little offensive . Like just the whole . Not that he has sex with Ben , but that he would talk about it in that way . Yeah , it just , it just was gross .

Yeah , that really , that actually really kind of bothered me . Yeah , which I don't think I saw on the first go through . I , the skillet line did not bother me the first time , but the thing about Oscar Wilde really did so . It was just like don't take away from this icon who who's a ?

Yeah , he's an icon to so many today , to so many , yeah , as a role model , and also it is who he was and he suffered for it . Yes , that's it too Like , if it's been I don't know like Liberace suffered for it too .

It just felt glib and also it felt to like as much as the show talks about like don't say the devil made me . Do it like they're just going to say that the devil made me gay . Yeah , what the whole like that is ugly . I mean the whole the fact that queer folks are born queer and they're made queer by God .

Like , and that's beautiful Like , and he could very easily have , they could very easily have made it a joke about like sexuality being a spectrum and like I helped them find this side of spectrum that they didn't realize was there .

Yeah , Like your friends , like scientists , I mean , think it through . Well , also an employee of the of the LAPD , like , could she just go to the lieutenant and be like sir , is this a thing ? Yeah , yeah , yeah , I mean I guess Matthew , I mean Tom , what's his name ?

Holland or Hollander , welling or Wellinger , whatever his name is , Welling , it's like L-List , but take off the S and add a W and an NG , whatever . That dude must have had the day off or something when they were filming . Well , they did say he's still recovering , oh , recovering from the gunshot . Right , right , he did .

It's true , he did take a shotgun blast to the torso . I forgot about that .

Well , first of all there's the huge number of people , so she's doing that , and then there's a whole band with a walker that she's pushing , and then when Charlotte catches up with her and the , the , the cops like hold the elevator and is like , can it close the door ? Like I'm not Mother Teresa , and Ella is like annoyed at her .

I'm like you're doing the exact same thing . It's just a very funny it is . It is . Although in Ella's defense , ella was trying to avoid a specific person and Charlotte's like I'm not going to wait for a stranger . There's a little bit of a difference there . Fair , totally fair .

I do appreciate that Ella , when Charlotte is like I'm trying to be better and Ella's like , ok , well , you know , it was good , you helped us catch a killer , she's like , yeah , I stole the paperwork . Like , if you're ever so like , I appreciate that because you do kind of have to like it's baby steps . It's baby steps .

If you're used to cutting corners , it's going to be hard to say you got to do everything straight and narrow . Yeah , that I also really love the like the . I cannot count the number of times I allegedly helped them make a mistake what I said . Allegedly , trisha Helfer delivered that line so beautifully . Oh man , that's pretty awesome .

She's a hell of an actress . Yeah she really is . She's pretty awesome . So , but , yeah , I , I , I appreciate that pairing , just because they are very much an odd couple . Yeah , yeah , yeah , they are , and even just like it's a much greater difference .

But Trisha Helfer in her heels standing next to Ella , uh-huh Funnier when it's Linda because she's only like five one and I , yeah , girl , is like five four , but it's still just like are you the same species ?

The first is that when Lucifer , in off the record , goes to talk to Reese , when he's like you know , I'm just going to punch him in the face and like he thinks that Reese wants to be with him , and he's like I'm not interested , not because you're a man , because I don't find you attractive , and like there's part of you that's like , first of all , how dare

you ? Reese Getty is a good looking man . Look at those eyes , so funny . Here you go Like it's I mean Tom Ellis and whoever . That actor is not exactly in the same league , but still look at those eyes and he cleans up really nice , right , all right , that's my , that's , that's my first thought .

It's just like you know , you don't have to insult him A and B , like what is wrong with you . He's a good looking man . Well , I mean , it's all gets even more because he's like you know , there's a chubby guy over there Looks slow , you reach around , right , that's what he wants . Oh , thank God the kid was not in the room for that .

My home , what's the reach around ? Ask your dad . Yeah , yeah , okay , all right , all right , I'll take that as some fluff . What else you got ? You got anything else ? So the only other fluff is I don't . When I rewatch , I generally skip Chloe does Lucifer because , because , of the embarrassment , the embarrassment factor , and it's just there's .

There's only a couple of scenes in it that I really like . I love the beginning scene in the in the unicorn , and so I'll I'll watch that and I'll maybe fast forward to Linda and Amanda deal on the beach and , and you know , that's about it .

But my favorite Lucifer GIF or GIF I'm agnostic on pronunciation is the one where he's pretending to be Lucinda and he goes , flips his hair , flips his hair , and I think I've sent that to you in our text messages .

By the way , watchers , I want you to know that I randomly look at my phone and my sister will have sent me like thirst traps of Tom Ellis just out of nowhere . No , no commentary , no , no message other than that it's just like hey , because so you remember that Avenue Q song . The internet is for porn to that song .

So there's a version of that song in my head that goes Twitter is for Tom Ellis . Like , I follow all these like Lucifer fans and they just find these amazing photos or drawings that they've done that are like holy shit , not safe for work .

Yeah , that too , and I just like , I'll like , I'll just be like random , like I open Twitter and like there it is and I can't . I can't keep that to myself , people . Well , and I am not in any way complaining , I mean I want to make that clear . This is not anything I want Tracy to stop doing . Keep them coming .

It's just so funny because , like I don't know , 25 years ago when I was starting college , I just can't imagine someone saying you know , 25 years from now and your 46 year old sister will be sending you pictures of an actor from show you both like on your pocket computer that can access anything in the world , anything at all .

Oh man , yeah , maybe something she does regularly . I just that that's just not something I would have expected to come about . The Lord works in mysterious ways , as does Lucifer . So do you have any fluff to add ? No , I could not possibly follow that , no way in hell or heaven or lux . Yeah , all right . So I think we we over sunk it enough .

We have over thunk it . And then some we done over sunk those bad boys . All right , y'all , we will see you next week . See you next week .

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