Hi Catherine, Oh Hi Chelsea. Oh my god, I would a whirlwind. I love New York City so much. I just don't know if I can leave here. I mean, I'm homeless right now anyway, So my house in la is still not ready, even though I'm going back there on Monday. I did my first two shows back at the Beacon in New York City, and they weren't fucking epic.
In the middle of a river of water, right.
Oh my god. Yeah, there was a huge storm on the first show I had Friday night. They were like, do you want to cancel? And I was like, I don't know. Once you cancel a show, it triggers so much else. So I was like, there's going to end up being more people that show up than people who can't come, you know. So we decided to just pull the trigger and do the show and it was awesome, and then Saturday Night's show was even more awesome. And I'm just so happy to be back on tour. I
feel so rested. I feel like I had the vacation of a lifetime, a summer of a lifetime. I Mean, I just can't believe how fucking great my life is. And I'm just so grateful that I have so many people and fans that have given me this life because I just am in enjoying myself to the n degree. And I also feel like it's just time for me to move to New York City.
You know what I mean, Liz, I have a second home there.
I know, I never lived in New York City. I'm from New Jersey. I think it's time. And my business managers I told them, I go, I think I might want to move to New York soon, and they were like, your house in LA is not even done yet. And I was like, well, we're going to have to rent that out to someone or do something. But I'm just much more stimulated here and I just love it. Last night, I was just out at this simple restaurant with like five girlfriends, and I'm like, this is awesome. This is
what I want my life to be like. I don't want to be in LA going to sleep at eight o'clock every night like an elderly woman. I want to live it up. It's time.
Yeah, and you have a lot of friends in New York too, so it's like pop by see people.
I like making new friends too. I make friends wherever I go. I mean, I am just on fire with my new friendships, my old friendships and new friendships. But that's the one and great thing about traveling too and bopping around. There's so many people to meet and interesting people who add and contribute to your life and joyfulness and experience and point of view, and it's just all so interesting.
Yeah, especially with as many places as you went this summer, I'm sure you got lots of different experiences.
Yeah.
Yeah, I dosed a lot of people capting this summer. I gave a lot of people microdosing of whatever I had excellent. I love, especially strangers. There was this old couple walking outside my house in MAYORCA, like a German couple, not old but older, and they were holding hands and we started talking. I don't know why, and they're like, it's our anniversary, our thirtieth anniversary. And I was like, oh my god, you guys should take some microdose of LSD, Like I have a whole sheet of it, and you
guys should do that. And they both looked at each other and they're like, we will. I go take one of my kayaks, take it out and put it, go right out there and go have a good night. I go just have fun with each other. And they came back four hours later. I was kind of like, are they still out there? And they came out and they left the kayak and they left this little note on the kayak and it was just the cutest thing. And
so I just want to give drugs to everybody. And I know not everybody can do drugs, so I wanted to say that it's not for everybody, but there is something for almost everybody.
And sometimes it's kayaking on LSD.
Yes, that's my favorite activity in my ARCHI I like to get up. One night, I got up from dinner. It was like nine thirty. I was like, I took my Mango dakery and I ran outside. I was like, it's time to get on a paddle board. And I went because if the water is because we live in this port and it's like I don't know who we are. I'm alone, a single woman. I live there with all the men that I have to hire to take care of me, which is also a great irony in my life.
And I can go out there and paddle you know, it's so still and placid at night, and just going out there with my cocktail and my paddle board or my kayak. I'm like, I just look up at the stars and I'm like, oh God, I believe in you. I believe in you now. Thank you, thank you.
Do to you.
Yeah, you've been there, you know. I'm just trying to figure out if it's too late to go to Antarctica.
You've been everywhere else.
I know, I know, but it just feels like every time I have an opportunity to go there, it just doesn't seem like it's going to be I hate to say this, but luxurious. Like I want to be on a comfortable boat, and all these boats are like it's like an exploration and I'm not an explorer.
No, those are some of the choppiest seas on the planet.
I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with being comfortable, Like I want to be on a yacht, not an exploration boat, because they're bare bones and then you're living basically like sleeping on cement like a Maxi pad on top of it.
Yeah, you have to have like an ice break.
I'm like, do I care that much? Like I'd like to go, Oh god, I have these bruises on the back of my neck because Dennis Colonello, who has two meatballs for hands. My chiropractor, but he doesn't he doesn't crack me. He got into my neck so deeply yesterday because I have so much tension in my neck for my I have some slip disc in my neck and and I was washing my hair this morning in the shower and I was like ah ah, And then I texted him, I said, you know, you assaulted me.
Yesterday in your bruise.
But he's like that he's happy that he hurt me, because that's his kind of personality.
Chiropractors, Okay, I feel like they it's not a popular profession.
They're all a little.
Weird, but like I feel like at some point they go two different directions. There's okay, i'll crack your back, make you feel better whatever, and the other direction they just go so wooo.
It's like naughty.
Yeah, he's pretty woo woo. But he doesn't ever crack me. He just realigns me. And it's very painful because I have a situation where I hold all my tension in my chest and neck like, so he gets in there. I mean he literally is like digging into my boobs. He puts a pad there yea to like try and pretend that it's not you know what it is in you, which is him basically feeling me up. So shout out to Dennis Colonello.
Thanks Ennis.
But I have a great chiropractor and whistler who cracks me because when I ski, my ribs pop out all the time, like this right ram bobbys pops out, and he cracks me all the time. His name is Keith, and he's a fucking awesome.
I bet he gets a lot of business.
Oh not only does I probably carry him through the whole year, because when my family comes up, we have Keith come every night at six before dinner, and everyone lines up and sits around and watches each other get cracked. He's like, God, I feel like I'm in like a theater. He goes, I can't, I'm performing for all of these people. I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's so good when you're out of whack to get cracked. Oh I love
it when it rings through your whole body. I never cracked my neck because women there's danger in women cracking their neck really anyone, but more so for women. But I like sometimes for my hips to get adjusted because they get out of whack, you know. But yeah, one night we were all this is years ago, my whole family was like over Christmas, we're all up in Whistler and we're all so stoned. Everyone is as high as a kite, and so we were all just like watching him.
We set him up in the living room and everyone's just like around watching him, drinking and just like staring at him. And I was like, God, he must think we are a one hot mess of a family. Did you explain why?
Well, now, who cares?
You know what I mean? Who cares?
He's like these guys we're not.
Yeah, it's better to be quiet and high than to be loud and obnoxious. Yeah, that's what I tell myself. Anyway, I saw Barry Manilow on my flight yesterday.
You did, Yeah, how's he looking?
Exactly the same, exactly the same. I was like, oh, you look like it's almost like he's frozen in time.
And I'm glad Barry Mallows did great.
Yeah, he seems to be thriving. Maybe he was lying around, Yeah, lying around he was. He walked to the bathroom all by himself. That's when I noticed him.
Did you know al Pacino as.
Having a baby, a baby. I'm so sick of all of this grossness.
And there's another one. It's al Pacino and de Niro.
Yes, yeah, how fun for that baby.
One of them is eighty three.
I'm like, you would be one hundred and one when your kid graduated high school. If I'm doing my math correctly.
Well, you don't need to make the math because he won't be there, so don't worry about it. It's really gross. Rupert Murdoch has seven children or six or they all. Elon Musk has like fourteen.
Elon Musk's dad just had a baby with his stepdaughter.
What.
Yeah, Elon Musk's dad had a baby with his step daughter and.
It's a secret child. But it came out like.
Well, that explains a little bit about Elon.
Musk, I know, like it's got a little weird, weird shit going on.
Well that family.
Yeah, yeah, actually I think they just had their second child together. I think that's what just came out recently. It's pretty on that note.
What do you think is worse a stepdaughter or your adopted daughter Like Woody Allen and his daughter Sunny, they just keep having babies, in my opinion, to prove that they were really meant to be all along. Meanwhile you're like, no, no, you were meant not.
To be No.
Our next guest, I've been following on social media for a while because she is an advocate for not having children as well. I don't know if you know that about me, but I don't want children, So I've been following her and then I saw I got her book, which was called Women Without Kids, and I thought, hm, we may have something to talk about. Please welcome Ruby Warrington. Good morning, good afternoon. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Point us, no chairs.
I am in Miami.
Oh you are?
Yes?
Are you hanging out with Ron DeSantis?
Absolutely?
He invited me for dinner this weekend.
Oh that's fun. I hope there's a bunch of drag queens and transgender people there totally so that they can enjoy his presence as well.
Thanks so much for having me on, guys. I'm so excited.
Yes are we?
As are we? I received your book Women Without Kids, and obviously we have that in common.
We do.
So talk to us. Talk to us about how you came to that decision. Talk to us about the book, about everything, your stance on being child free.
Well, I think that I was born this way. Honestly, That's kind of where I've landed now. I've actually recently started using the term a reproductive to describe how I feel about having children, kind of like asexual, as in like no desire to engage with the reproductive element of my sexuality. Right, That's a term that I only came up with more recently. But honestly, I feel like I was born this way, you know, I just never had
a desire to have a child. This was something that was questioned intensely throughout my twenties and thirties, to the extent that I questioned it in myself, like why don't I want to do this thing? Am I sure? I don't want to do this thing? Will I regret not doing this thing? And then I got to my early forties and I honestly was looking ahead to menopause, and I realized I was quite excited actually about what might lie on the other side of this kind of monthly
hormonal roller coaster. And within that realized, no, I have no regrets about not having had a child. There is not one minute of panic kind of sounding in my book body at this moment, like this was always the right path for me. And how fortunate I am to have been born in a country and in an era where I actually got to make the choice not to have a child, and I actually got to really live
true to myself, you know. And so I wanted to write this book because it felt like the path of non motherhood, no matter how a person finds themselves, there is still so stigmatized. It's still seen as so other, so unusual. People get so many questions about it. And actually the statistics will show that women without kids are rising in numbers dramatically all around the world and happier and often happier and richer, richer.
There was a study that came out that said men who are married are the happiest men, women who are single are the happiest women.
Right, there are all of these kind of contradictions between our actual lived experiences as women without kids and what the society tells us our life are supposed to be. Like, so I wanted to write the book to first and foremost just validate the path of non motherhood, like again, no matter whether it's by choice, by circumstance, not by choice.
Because a lot of people who've tried and failed to have kids even there failed right like they see themselves or they're often told that, like you just you failed at this important thing, this most important thing. But beyond that, you know, the statistics will show that the birth rate is actually decreasing massively in every single country around the world. The number one reason this is happening is because women are getting more access to education, more access to financial freedom,
and more empowerment basically. And yet there are plenty of forces who do not see this as a good thing, who would really prefer for women to continue having lots of children, to keep boosting the birth rate and essentially keep our economy kind of ticking on as it is. And a lot of the time, the quote unquote blame for the falling birth rates is put very squarely at the feet of silly, selfish women who are choosing to
do other things with their lives then have kids. And so it just felt like this really juicy area to dive into in book format.
And what has the response been for you with other women?
I've been getting just countless DM, so many women who reflect back to me what I so often felt I thought I was the only one. Thank you, so much for showing me that I'm not a weirder, I'm not a freak. I haven't failed. Thank you for giving me so many different ways to think about why I don't want to be a mother, or even why I'm questioning if that is right for me. So just a real sense of solidarity and support and people feeling seen and
understood when they're reading the book. Of course, there has also been you know, the occasional this book is poison, you ridiculous, selfish person. You're going to regret this when you're old, Like I kind of expected. I actually expected more of those sorts of comments actually, but yeah, there have been a few of those as well.
I get a lot of backlash, a lot of backlash from men, conservative men. While I live in a Marria, so we have you know, this is a hot mess situation and a hot button topic here because men would like to force us to have children here in this country. So the backlash from women mostly it's supportive from women and especially mothers are like, yeah, to each his own, you know, why would you ever force this on somebody else?
But when I do get these messages from mothers going you're such a sad person or they comment on my posts. You're such a sad person, Chelsea. You're so sad and you're just covering it up with humor, and you're gonna be miserable. You're gonna die alone. I'm like, I hope I do die alone. I don't want to die with a bunch of other people. What are you talking about? You're gonna die alone? You think the reason to have a child is so that you don't die alone. I
don't want anyone dealing with my death. I want to be shut and just put down or whatever. Like if I'm sick, shoot me and bury me, or actually light me on fire and cremate me, whatever's best for the environment, because I think cremating is bad. Now they can liquefy your body I heard recently, right, But anyway, those aren't the reasons. And to speak to the main issue that everyone brings up, which is in a more loving way, is you're going to miss out on the most beautiful
love of your life. It is the most transcendent. You can't describe how somebody feels when they give birth to a baby and the love that they feel. Of course I believe that to be true, but I'm okay with that, and if I'm okay with missing out on that kind of love. Just like some people will never have pets, some people will never experience that kind of love. And that's not the same as a kid, but for some people,
that's even better than a kid. The most common thing that I hear among mothers is no one said it was going to be this hard. No one said it was going to be this hard.
I hear that all the time, and I'm like, are you kidding me? Literally, everyone always talks about how it is.
All I ever hear is this is really hard, This is so hard.
And then everyone I know who becomes a mom is like, no one tells you how hard this is going to be. I'm like, what if you've been what channel have you been listening?
I think there is an overwhelming chorus of people talking about how beautiful it is, how one wonderful it is. They don't say, hey, you're going to be up for the first six months of their lives fifteen times a night or whatever it is three times a night. I guess I'm exaggerating breastfeeding, or that you're beholden that you have no life for six months. People talk about it, but the overwhelming chorus is one of positivity rather than of negativity.
I think, and I do actually think that the physical experience. You can read all that stuff and you can hear about it, but then the physical experience and I think, actually what a lot of women find really hard, especially women who have grown up with a degree of agency and freedom to kind of live our lives on our own terms thanks to the different waves of the feminist movement, becoming a mother means say goodbye to all of that. So it kind of means a loss. It actually means
a loss of privilege in a way. If freedom, autonomy, self authorship, bodily sovereignty, these are privileges which have been fought for by the feminist movement. Women of Gen X Millennials gen zs were the first generations of women to really kind of experience that in our lives, and so of course, becoming a mother means a loss of so many of those privileges, privilege which used to be only
applied to men. And so I think that it's actually maybe even harder to weigh up the kind of sacrifices and responsibilities of becoming a mother against the kind of freedoms that we now have the opportunity to go after in our lives. So I think that's something that when I get that kind of feedback, it often does feel like a projection. I think that can be quite a
envy in those kind of comments as well. Maybe if someone is feeling a bit like I don't enjoy this nearly as much as I should do, or the love actually doesn't make up for all the sacrifices, but they're not allowed to say.
That, Or you don't feel the love that everyone's telling you you're going to feel, you don't feel that you experience a terrible case of postpartum, or you don't feel that connection to your baby that everyone tells you you're supposed to feel, and then you feel like something's wrong with you, and then you feel like it's a whole game of shame. Also, parenting, you feel like you never
know that you're doing the right thing. I mean, this is the feedback I've heard and books I've read, like you never know what you're doing, you know if if you're doing the right thing, and the idea that every woman is supposed to have a baby isn't taking into account the baby you're supposed to have a baby, and then and then the baby suffers because you're not prepared or interested in the way that like, it is such a thoughtful process to come to the conclusion that it's
not for you. It should be such a thoughtful process to come to the conclusion that it is. There are so many women that talk about I don't know if I want one, but I'm gonna freeze my eggs and I don't know, I don't know. It's like, if you don't know, then maybe you don't. You don't, then you shouldn't have a kid. You have to be one hundred and fifty percent on board with having a child, not be like I have these eggs, I guess you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna be forty. I'm gonna just try.
I think that is just so such a mistake for so many people.
And that's why I wanted to write this book to say it's it's different, and it's equally valid not to be a parent, because that doorway has been so closed off, because it's been so stigmatized, Like if you don't become a parent, especially actually if you don't become a mother, because I don't think supplies to men in the same way. If you don't become a mother, you have missed out.
You will be unfulfilled, you are cold heartless. You are going to miss out on this most transcendent, most important, deepest love that you can ever feel. You're going to regret it, and you will die lonely, destitute and alone. And so when all of that stigma exists, that door
to non motherhood is closed off. So for anyone who's questioning it, even if they have really serious doubts about their parental readiness, like their capacity to be a parent, it's going to be so much easier just to go, Ah, I guess I'll just do it anyway, or I guess I'll just go along with it, because I guess I don't want to be labeled with all of that stuff, or I don't want to take the risk on, you know,
being this lonely old spinster. Although, like you say, Chelsea, ultimately we all die alone, right, no one's going with us, No one's like holding our hand crossing us over to the other side. And there's also no guarantee that our kids are going to be that our kids could well die.
Before we do.
And also statistically, this was so sad when I read this. Sixty percent of people living in old people's homes don't receive any visitors. There's no guarantee you're going to have the kind of relationship with your kids where you want them all to be, or they all want to be at your bedside, kind of like seeing you off, you know,
onto the next dimension. So part of the point of the book, and I've had so many moms read it and actually feel really grateful or expressible gratitude for making them feel less like defectible, less like they've failed, if they're actually not enjoying being a mum, or if they actually sometimes want to still be the woman they are without their kids, you know. But a big part of the book was just about saying, Hey, this is the most important decision you can ever make. It's one of
the only decisions you can't unmake. So know yourself, know your capacity, know your choices, and act accordingly.
No your partner, and know whether or not I just was talking to a girlfriend last night. She has three kids, she's in an unhappy marriage, she's been married for almost twenty years, and she's stuck. She's getting ready to make a move, but she has stayed in this unhappiness because of her children, And that in it of itself, is like, Hello, you don't know what the commitment is until you have
those children. And then so many women find themselves in a situation where it's not a fifty to fifty parenting situation, where the women are fucking doing everything, and not only are the men not contributing in an equal manner, they don't even appreciate all the work that their wife has done to raise these children until they separate and then realize,
oh shit, oh fuck. I mean, I can't tell you how many of my girlfriends have left their husbands who didn't appreciate them, didn't value what they did in their child's lives. Now they're divorced and they have no fucking idea what to do with these kids because they've never had to do it. And so there's that element on top of it. So not only can children, you know, trap you into being a parent, which is the idea, you can get trapped in other ways by being a parent,
which you're not even thinking about. You're not thinking your husband's not going to be a good father or a good husband or whatever. So there's just there's so much landscape to actually consider before making that decision. I know, when you have a husband, I mean, then there's women who have children to save their marriages, which is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. I had a girlfriend once to say, like, if you have problems in your marriage,
children will only intensify those problems. They're not going to solve your problem.
Because children just add stress. They add financial stress, they add stress in terms of your time, stress in terms of the equality balance in the marriage. Like, yeah, there's going to be ideally like some fun times and a lot of love, but what you're guaranteed is actually quite a lot of stress. And one thing I realized about myself is that I have quite a low capacity for stress.
I also have a low capacity for stress.
I would like to say I am low capacity for stress.
I'm like I can get really easily overwhelmed, Like if I have too many things in my calendar, I spin out. I don't know if it's ADHD or what. I haven't ever had a diagnosis like that, but I spin out really quickly, and I get very overwhelmed with deadlines and having to kind of switch hats too many times during a day, and that's basically parenthood. From what I can see, parenthood is going from one thing to the other, with
multiple different people going through different situations in each day. So, like knowing about myself, how overwhelmed I get with that kind of lifestyle. I know that parenthood would likely not bring out the best side of me, let's say, and that that stress would then be transferred to my kids and it just would be kind of a shit show.
So I agree with that statement. It would not bring out the best side of me.
Such a good way to put it.
I also want to just say, this is a conversation about child free women, and you know, and obviously anyone who follows me on Instagram knows how I make these PSAs about, you know, the wonders and joys of a child free existence. Nothing I do is to shame women for having children, And what I'm trying to do is celebrate women who choose not to have children because they don't have enough representation. Nobody is telling women, yes, you
can be whatever you want. I mean, there are some, but that's not the overarching theme in the society we live in. It's when are you getting married and when
are you having children. So with the joy and experiences that I've had in my life without having to done either of those things, I feel it is my purpose to represent to the women who have either chosen not to have children or haven't been able to have children, that there is joyfulness and happiness to be found in a panoply of other ways in our society and in life. So I want to make sure women know that, you know, if you want to have a child, of course, go
have a baby. I'm not mad at you. I want everyone to feel empowered, every woman to know that the decision is yours to make, and if you don't choose to have children, there is nothing unvaluable about you. And on that note, we are going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. And we are back with Ruby Warrington, author of Women Without Kids. Oh Ruby, also sober Curious? What the fuck? What is that curious about? Sobriety?
Yes, so sober Curious.
This is my last book.
So.
I had always been an enthusiastic social drinker, shall we say, And I got to my mid thirties and I started getting the feeling that alcohol might actually be a cause of some of the anxiety and depression and difficulties that I was experiencing at the time, But my drinking didn't really look like problem drinking. It didn't look like alcoholic drinking. I went to a couple of AA meetings, didn't really
see my story reflected there. But I knew that I wanted to make a change, and so I came up with this term sober curious that was kind of less judgmental, a bit more open minded, and would give me permission to just ask some of my questions about alcohol, like am I drinking too much? How much is too much? Why is there so much pressure to drink? Why are there so few decent alcohol free options on every menu everywhere? Like all of these questions, right, And so that became
a bit of a movement in a way. I started hosting events in New York which were immediately hugely popular, and then I had a book on the subject come out at the very end of twenty eighteen. And that term has really taken and I think it's been embraced by a lot of normal social drinkers who've had maybe one too many horrific hangovers and actually really want to make a change to their drinking. But without having to give themselves the label of I'm an alcoholic or subscribe
to a kind of a program for recovery. You know, but so you drink, I don't anymore. And I now have got to a place where alcohol actually just doesn't
I just don't enjoy it at all. And this has been over like ten years of experimentation and questioning and experiencing longer and longer periods of abstinence, trying it in certain situations, and just getting to a point where I'm like, actually, no, it just makes me feel shit, Like even if I get a few minutes of pleasure, which now actually feels more like just numbness, the after effects are typically just so horrible, even just from a glass of wine, like
my sleep is really badly impacted, my anxieties up, Like it's just I don't enjoy it. But I've got there from a place of choice, Like I've got there because I decided that's not right for me, and I don't want that in my life anymore, not because I in a program that was telling me I was an alcoholic and that if I ever picked up another drink, I
was gonna die. Basically, so it's just a more forgiving more open ended approach to addressing or drinking by no means is everyone who gets sober curious completely abstinent from alcohol, but it's really for you might have heard the term great area drinkers some people, people who kind of fall in between just like can take it or leave it and never really think about it to more kind of
like extreme alcoholism. There's a lot of people in that great area drinking category who like abuse alcohol sometimes, who sometimes can't control themselves, who sometimes drink more than they know is good for them, and so the sober curious approach really appeals to them.
I think as you get older too, I guess maybe if you're not an addict. I don't know. As I get older, like I like to drink, but at a certain point it's not fun. Like I don't like to be drunk like I used to, right, I like to be a bused. I don't like to be drunk. So at a certain age you just kind of like, you know, like I'll have a drink before I go on stage, and then when I get off, it's like I don't want to have another drink, you know what I mean. Then I want to like have an edible or something
my whole physiological response to alcohol has changed. But I guess that's probably not fair to say, because I probably am not an addict. And so if you're listening and you're like, well, wait that, I know it's different for everybody, So that doesn't naturally happen as you get older. Some people who are addicted to alcohol, it could get worse as you get older, and then you know, it just continues to get worse, which is more typical. I would say, right, okay, Catherine.
Well with that, let's jump to our first caller, who is sort of on this journey of sobriety. She may be a little bit more on the spectrum of needing to be a sober person, So just going into it with that in mind. But Ashley says, I'm a forty one year old nutrition counselor, lesbian and self proclaimed eternal student that has been in recovery from alcohol for the last six years. About seventy percent of that time I've
been able to say sober. A relapse is almost always triggered by overwhelm or burnout, and never for a good time. When I'm in captain recovery mode, I dive into meetings documentaries, books, workshops, retreats, podcasts, and any and all things regarding neuroscience and addiction. I've taught recovery groups, I've led meetings. I've recently put myself on antibuse. I feel it's important to add I do
not adhere to any higher power. There has been much lost and much put at risk due to this constant tug of war. I've lost a special partner and bailed on some major life events, weddings, funerals, even Chelsea's Netflix special taping here in Nashville. Because I put myself into a treatment center. I gave the tickets away to some very happy sober friends. I'm just got sick over it all.
Visiting California a while back, a friend of three decades said to me, out of the blue, Ashley, you've lost your fight.
Who are you?
That really hit me more than any therapy session I suppose. I'm writing to you now for more of the same. I'd love to get your take, respectfully, Ashley.
Hi, Ashley, Hi, Ashley O.
Hi.
This is our special guest, Ruby Warrington. Today. She wrote the book Sober Curious and also Women with our Kids. But we're talking about sobriety for this.
Car excellent familiar?
Yes, oh good, well thanks for your No, it sounds familiar. And what I mean is I've heard this from many individuals like this is it's a good It's a roller coaster, right, it can take us in so many different directions, and just when we feel like we're really getting ahead of it, there it comes here it is again, and I'm back here again? And how did I get back here again? And I know how frustrating and tiring and disheartening that
can be. I mean, I think there was one thing in your letter that really really stood out to me, and this is something that the sober Curious approach is really very much about, and so many recovery programs too. But when you said that you're drinking or your relapses are triggered always by getting to a place of despair, overwhelmed, just you know, doing too much stress, anxiety, etc. That's such such useful information, it seems to me.
And it seems like you do yoga.
You're you know, you're obviously looking after your mental health and well being as well, but really like being very focused on that piece, like what are the life situations and the circumstances that typically bring me into that place of overwhelm where I know I'm going to be vulnerable then and reach for that familiar medicator in those circumstances that to me would be the really key thing to be working on and looking at, literally, what are the
situations that bring me to that place, and how can I work on ensuring that I encounter as few of those situations and put myself in as few risky situations with alcohol therefore as possible, which obviously is sometimes easier said than done, because a lot of those stresses can be external things that we don't have much control over.
When I wrote that letter, I was I was in a state of despair. I was two weeks sober, and now I realized that I was in the beginning of a mid life crisis. This month life crisis. I was in a very antidonic state. I was joyless. And what I've had to do is really be isolative and sort of create this crystalis around me currently.
First of all, nice vocabulary, four solid words right there.
I love it.
I've just had to sit with it, and it's fucking uncomfortable. It's been painful. Like I said, I've lost a lot, but I feel like something Hash shifted and you hear that a lot in the recovery community. With me, something hash shifted in the last couple of months, and I'm having trouble articulating it. However, it's monumental. This chrysalis is monumental, and I still struggle with. My initial question was how do you harness that inner bad astery when you feel
inept and I don't feel capable. I have like a debilitating inadequacy, like an undeserving feeling. I don't deserve a seat at the table. That's why I'm struggling with the most.
And do you feel this shift that you're talking about, this wrestle list happening that's in your life? Is this in the positive way?
Yes, there's no frills to it. Like I said, it's been really isolating, and in the recovery world they sort of that's not what they encourage you to do. But I've had to do it. I've had to do this alone, this leg of it, and I feel a little bit lighter than when I initially wrote in I have some clarity, and I guess the big thing is I trust myself and I've never been able to say that, but I still struggle with the inadequacy.
And again that can be such a trigger to why do I feel this way? Okay, this is a little bit left field. I feel like on this show I can mention this. I'm also really into astrology, and I don't know if you follow for your into astrology at all now a little okay, So there is I actually call it the astro life crisis. Between the ages of about thirty nine, thirty eight, thirty nine and around forty five, there are a series of very very tense astrological transits
that every person experiences. They're the kinds of life experiences or that bring up the kind of life experiences and psychological transitions where we can literally feel like all of the illusions we've been operating under are shattered. Everything we thought we knew about our life is not correct. You're nodding, Okay,
you're relating to some of this. And for me having astrology is at aol, and particularly being able to maybe take my birth chart to a talented astrologer and have them kind of map out what transits I'm being impacted by can be really helpful because it gives some meaning or like there's something I'm going through. I'm not being asked to look at some of this stuff for a reason. And best of all, astrological transits always passed, so that this too will pass is very kind of clear when
you apply the astrological lens. It's like, Yeah, you might be having a really intense like Urinus transit which is making you feel like your whole life has been turned upside down, and there's some stuff for you to look at. It's happening for you for a reason, and it's going to pass, but you're going to come out the other side of it. So I don't know, I just want
to offer that to you as an additional tool. I guess potentially you know, understanding that you're interested in these more kind of esogetetic subjects, it might be something that could be helpful. And I also agree, like I'm an introvert and i'm very insula and the typical recovery stuff about like don't be in isolation that's never really served
me either. I charge up and I find so much more self awareness and comfort in giving myself enough time alone, right, enough time to actually sit with my feelings, let my body process stuff through, like just kind of slob out, honestly, and so I think, don't beat yourself up about feeling like you're drawn to more alone time and that recovery kind of message in your head going no, that's unhealthy,
that's dangerous. Give yourself what you need. It sounds like you've been giving yourself some really good emotional self care with that thank you.
Yeah, there's an element of PTSD from being so saturated in the recovery world for so long. You know, the health Step foundation is built on powerlessness, and you know, accepting or admitting that your life is unmannered. Well, I'm capable, I know I am, but that that voice is so huge.
I also think it's important that program works for millions of people, But that program isn't the only way to, you know, to quit something for an attic to quit, because it's kind of putting it on the line each day, like I'm sober today, Tomorrow is the next day.
You know.
The whole kind of mantra of AA is like I'm here today, I'm sober today, I'm making this decision today, which makes it like you have to make the decision almost every single day, whereas if you make a decision to quit something that this isn't serving you in your life. You know, midlife crises. B Rene Brown puts it down perfectly.
She's like, we call it a midlife crisis because whatever trauma that we've endured comes and sneaks back up on us by the time we hit forty and all of your armor, everything kind of falls away because then you're forced to face your demons. And that's what you're doing. You're facing your demons because it's time for a new child in your life. And this isolatory behavior that you're talking about is totally fine. Whatever the fuck you need
is fine. You could be I mean, do you know how much value there is in spending time by yourself. I've had some of the best times of my life alone, Like that cannot be understated. You know, seeing friends is also beneficial for your health and your emotional health.
And all of that.
But you can totally take breaks from people and totally say I'm working on myself right now. You know, do meditation, get into yourself, spiritually, connect with your inner voice. Understand why you have a problem with alcohol in the first place. That's the issue, you know, not necessarily the alcohol itself
that you're using as a band aid. You have to reveal and release your trauma with a therapist, with yourself, you know, with journaling, with writing, with reading books on people who've experienced this and come out of it, like it doesn't matter what steps you take to get there, and don't think you have to follow the format of alcoholics anonymous. There's you can make your own format and we're all capable of that. And you just said this yourself.
You are capable of it. You're strong enough. We all are. When I went to get hypnotized for smoking, like he's like, okay, this is the mantra. If you have a desire, it's not an option. It's not an option. I don't smoke anymore. I'm done. That's like a little thing that he gave me. And I'm like, I am done. I know it's bad for me. I know why I was doing it. I over abused it, so now I have to give it up. Sorry, you know, like whoopsie doodle. You abuse something and now
you have to give it up. The rewards are going to be so much greater in your life for going through this period of time that you're going through and for taking like the bull by the horns. And just because your journey happened to have some like slip ups or you know, you fell off the wagon. I don't like the way that's defined by alcoholics anonymous either. So that's part of your journey you did that. There's no self immolation necessary. That's okay. Hey, you fucked up. Hopefully
it won't happen again. But if it does, you're not gonna beerate yourself. But you're definitely never going to become the kind of drinker that you were before.
Yeah, I all relapses reminds you learn something with every time that it comes back, that you're there again, and like you become stronger every time you listen and pay attention and act on what you've learned from each of those. So yeah, and also Chelsea picked up on that you said it, I am capable, I can do this. How dare they tell me I'm not? That is the inner badass that you've been thinking you don't have, Like there she is right there, you know, I.
Think Also, you know we always are just like we have all these constructs that everyone's telling us about. You can forge your own path. You're strong enough, you're smart enough, like you're you can define what your life is going to look like moving forward. And what I would just deter you from is this judgment that you are putting on yourself, because no one wants that for you, especially you. You don't need it. You don't need to be judging yourself.
You're living an authentic life. So you've struggled with alcoholism or addiction or however you want to frame it. So has have hundreds of millions of people and much worse. So it's not something that has to define your life. It's just part of your life.
You know, you mentioned a chrysalis, but when I think about a chrystalist, I also think of emerging.
And I think you're gonna know.
When is the right time to sort of like come out of your chrystalist and be around your friends again, whether that's your AA friends or other friends, and enter the world again.
But I think the point here is you will emerge.
As a butterfly. Yes, thank you all, You're welcome.
Thanks for digging deep with Menis I appreciate you all?
Yeah, I appreciate you. Ashley, thank you here.
I Oh, that smile is worth everything.
Yeah, that's an example of a caller who's almost almost gotten to where she's going and just needed in one more push in the right direction because she's already there.
I have a couple of questions in a different vein here. Our next question comes from Jay Dear Chelsea, I'd like to start off by thanking you for always being an advocate for women who have chosen not to have children.
You make me feel.
Validated and seen and heard in a world dominated by a society that continues to value women becoming mothers over women prioritizing themselves. I'm almost thirty, successful and live in a mid sized coastal town in the South. I do the majority of my dating through HINGE, and I'm genuinely looking for a long term relationship. I've always known that I never wanted to be a mother and have ended a relationship in the past because of this. Here comes
the part I need advice about. For the past year or so, I've been bringing this topic up on the first date. I hate having my time wasted and give the same respect to others, so I typically start by asking do you want children? So far, the answer is always yes. I wonder if they think that's what I want to hear, if it's a cultural thing since I'm in the South and having children is as normal as breathing, or if it has to do with their age. The average age for men I'm dating is around thirty five.
But since I know I'm not changing my mind about this, I would never expect someone else to. Is it possible I'm putting too much weight on this topic. I hate the idea of being the woman that a man dates before they eventually decide to go and find the mother of their children. And I refuse to believe that because I don't want children, then it means I have to be single forever. Do you have any advice on dating in my position or a different way to go about it? Thanks so much, Chelsea Jay.
I think it's better to be upfront before you go on the date then, I mean to speak to your experience when you're talking to the guys and going just so you know, Like, I've been on a lot of dates and it's been an issue. It's come up a lot of times that I'm meeting men who want children and I'm not interested in that, So I just want to get that out of the way. I mean, that's
pretty like an aggressive way to go about it. But if you don't even want to waste your time with a first date where you can kind of collect that information and you want to get to the bottom of it. I mean, then that's what you should do. You should just preemptively be like just so you know, Like, I know, we're only going on a first date, so I don't want to sound crazy, but I don't want children, and I've been out with a lot of guys and that's a deal breaker. So I just want to see if
you want kids, Like, maybe we should skip it. You could just be upfront like that. I mean, I think the more natural thing to do is to go on a date and have the conversation then, but if you are sick of that, then this is a good way to avoid having that happen again.
Yeah, maybe it's ticket right on your profile, like not interested in having kids?
Would you do that?
Right?
Yeah?
I think they should have they should have that as a category, right. I think it would be really really helpful because ultimately a lot of people are going on dating apps to meet somebody to potentially do that with, and so if you're not into that, I think it would be really helpful if the apps themselves had a category like what is your what's your stance on this?
You know, or put a picture of a baby up on your profile app and with a cross, like a big X over it.
That's a good way to let people know perfect. But can I say one other thing on this? There was a question as well about like why is it why do all these guys say that they definitely want to have kids, And I honestly think because it is the faults to want to be a parent, Like we're kind of living in this culture, which is very what they call pro natalist, like parents are seen as more valid than non parents. It's just like the normal thing to do.
I think that a lot of the time when guys are saying that, it's just reflective of the fact that having kids and becoming a parent is seen more as like a woman's issue. It's something that we are taught to think about since we first having sex, since we first get our period, as in like, don't get pregnant, be careful, you don't get pregnant until you're such and such age and until you've met the right person.
Right.
So we're kind of like indoctrinated with this, not indoctrinated, but we're encouraged to really think about it from a very early age, and I just don't think And I think that shines the light actually on how much more education there needs to be for men in terms of like the responsibilities of parenthood and do you know what
it actually means to be a father? And you know, so, I just think it's kind of interesting that you've got all these guys who are immediately saying, yeah, I want to be a dad, and it just makes me question if they've really thought about what that actually would mean for their lives.
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean surprised to even hear men say yeah, we want kids, we want kids like usually I would. I think they'd be open to not having them since they don't do anything.
Our next caller is Krinn Krinne says, through doing the work in counseling, I'm realizing that marriage isn't really what I want for myself anymore.
Same can be said about kids.
I'm realizing that I'm absolutely happy being a cool and loving aunt to my nieces and nephews. I know that you can relate to all of this, which is why I need your help. Where are all the thirty somethings single and child free people at I ask because two more of my closest friends are expecting their first baby, one shortly after the other. While I'm thrilled that this is where their journey has led them, it's not the
same for me. And as excited as I am that I get to have two more munchkins to spoil my group of friends that I can text last minute to see if they want to get away for the weekend is quickly dwindling. So some have suggested the app meetup, which I have but still feels a liffy. What would you suggest to help me connect more with this community?
Karin Hikerin hiker In Hello, Hello, Oh.
Here, I'm here, yay.
And I should mention that Krin is a teacher, which is great birth control. I am sure she just jetted out from class.
I did.
Yes, Yes, it's a Yes, it is birth control, but it's also I do love it.
Yes, that's nice, that's great.
And our guest is Ruby Warrington, who wrote the book Women Without Kids, so she is perfect for her questions.
Oh hello Ruby, perfect.
Yes, the subtitle lift my book is the Revolutionary Rise of an Unsung Sisterhood, and that piece unsung sisterhood speaks to this exact thing you're talking about so often when you decide you don't want to have children, and it feels like I'm the only one. More I realized the more I started talking about it, asking people about it, looking on social media for other people who felt the same way, I was like, Oh, there's so many of us.
We just don't have anything to kind of like show that we're women without kids, because what we have in common is the lack of a child, right, And there aren't like after school groups for us or meet up groups for us. Like there's so much stuff that brings mums together to find other mums, but for women without kids,
there isn't that same thing. And what I wanted one of the things I wanted to do with the book was to kind of start to unite us, even just by having more people go hey, me over here, and what about me over here, and like what do we need? What kind of stuff would we like to do together? Like I can totally imagine a future where there are child free holiday vacation companies, and I don't know all sorts of things that actually cater to specifically to child
free people. I did actually go on one of the Virgin cruises over Christmas this year, and they are child free cruises. Oh okay, Well, everybody on board didn't have their kids with them, and I'm assuming that a fair number of them probably don't have children. So the other thing you might be interested to know, as much as it can feel like with our only ones in our groups, I think it's like almost fifty percent of women age seventeen to forty five in the US do not have children.
So actually there are far more of us out there than you think. It might just take a little bit of looking around to find people, you know. I'm hosting a women without Kids retreat, like an in person retreat at Cropola and Massachusetts in the middle of June, for the express purpose of kind of giving people an opportunity to meet each other. But social media is a great place to find this plenty of kind of like child ree influences.
Yeah, only where to start, you know.
And like I said, I'm very happy that they're having kids, but my group of friends to hang out with is just really dwindling. I've noticed that the communication between us is definitely at a blow because I'm just connecting differently than they are.
And which makes sense.
You know, their kids are having friends, they're getting older, they're getting more involved, so less need for me in their life. But at the same time, it's like, but I'm still part of their life. So unless it's for a sporting game or a holiday or a birthday, there's not too much for me to you know, hang around with them.
So where do I start?
Like, you know, go on my Instagram page and look at all the comments from women who are single, like on any of my child free videos, and go look at their profile. Where do you live.
I'm in New York.
Oh yeah, go, I mean that's half of my followers are.
Fround zero ground zero without kids.
They're everywhere.
Yeah, you can go out to anyone in the street and be like, hey, won want to hang out.
It's going to be it's it's once you start, it's going to just be easier. It'll all come together. But I understand you're kind of like feeling at a crossroads. But literally, go on my Instagram page, find the people who are commenting about how great their lives are as single women, child free women, and look where they live and if they live near your area, reach out to them. I'm sure what area of New York are you in.
I'm about an hour north of the city.
Okay, great, so and Ruby. It goes the same for Ruby Warrington. Go to her site. She all she talks about is child free and find women and go, hey, express your situation. You're gonna find so many people that are in the same exact position as you that are like, oh, yeah, you're right. And also start going out alone a little bit.
You know, you don't have to do it all the time, but go to a bar if you get invited by, like, you know, one of your friends from school, another teacher, like say yes to things that you normally wouldn't say yes to, so you can come broaden your horizons and find out what else is happening out there.
Yeah, I'll also connect you with there's a group of child free gals in New York specifically that are dear Chelsea fans.
I will put you onto Oh Catherine, what the fuck? Why don't you just up with that?
Hey, look, the unsung Sistered is out there. I'm actually moving back to New York at the end of the summer as well. I hear this from so many people, and I know there's such a hunger to meet other people to just socialize and hang out with, you know, who aren't like coming in baby vomit.
Or comes with like a whole nother baggage and just.
Kind of like sleep deprived. Yeah, exactly.
It's not just the baby.
It's the baby bag, it's the diapers, it's the toys, it's the pack and play.
I'm like, oh, right, and I'm thinking about starting some kind of a regular meet up group. So if you go onto my Instagram and follow that, they'll be news about whatever that looks like in the future just as well.
The last thing I'll say too is Bumble also has a friend mode, so you can actually turn it to I'm just looking for friends, see all kinds of friends. You're looking for female, child free whatever that.
I think that's really on your social media. It's fine to be like advertising that, you know what I mean, being like, Hey, I'm just here single, have no children, not looking for any, but it would love some other child free people to hang out with or whatever. Just get a little bit more creative, change up the kind of dynamic of your social structure, and I think it'll be easy. Your normal fun pretty like smart, You've got everything that people would want to be friends with.
I heard someone say this to me just yesterday. I can't remember the exact quote, but it's kind of like when your friends have kids, they'll disappear for five years and then they'll be back. So remember that first five years they're going to be very all consumed with the newness and the sleep deprivation and all of the things. And then the more independent their kids.
Are, they'll be like, hey, where is she?
Hi?
Can we hang out? So, like, don't give up on don't give up on them just because they're not available to you now. You are living very different lives right now. But that's not going to be the case forever. Like, if there's a strong friendship, it's gonna last. If anything, I would say, give them moments to like, send them a funny meme, send them a nice voice note I'm thinking of you. Just let them know that you're there
and that you could not that you appreciate that. Like they've got other stuff going on right now, but like you're here, and yes, see to hang and here for a cocktail if you want to forget that you've got kids for a night.
You know where I am.
You know, right, be that person in their life as well.
Sure, you know, it's like the like the pendulum right now, it's swinging in the direction where we're not as close, but yeah it could.
It's going to swing swing back the other. But yeah, that's a good, great, excellent point as well.
And they're going to also need your help because you're a teacher, so you're going to have for that they're going to need access to when their kids are growing up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's already happening. Yeah, what do I do or where can I find? What do you suggest?
Yeah, you're right, Yeah, all great points to consider and just take in too.
Yeah, and be loud about your child free stance so that you are attracting people that are also feeling that same way, you know, like that could be your thing, like, oh, I'm child free and single, I'm looking for other child free people. Who else is?
You know?
And get activated that way. There's no shame in that game. It's good to pronounce what you're about.
Taking your lead.
You're normalizing it and it's like, yeah, maybe kids in a marriage isn't for me, and yeah, make it more known, normalize it.
It's okay, Yes, cool.
Well, Karen, you got your marching orders. I'll hook you up with the New York gals as well. Who are the dear tel.
Yes, yes, yes, please, I would much appreciate that. Yes, right, thank you so much.
We'll talk to you soon.
Let us know how it goes.
Thank you guys so much much.
Bye, Honey, bye, thank you, Bye bye Ruby Bye. What a cute she is. I didn't know we had a fucking group of child free people. Can we do?
No?
Remember, they keep writing in be like, can you add me to the list? I told you, I told you.
Where do they congregate?
I actually don't know.
I should check in with them, but I got like several of them together on an email thread and they're like, well, let you know how it goes, Bloper please, yeah, yes, yeah, I'll connect her. I knew she was East cousin, I didn't know if she was New York.
So that's that's perfect.
But let's take a.
Quick break, and I actually have one more quick question for you when we come back, which is.
Sort of the opposite of the question we just covered.
And we're back.
We're back.
Our last question comes from Jen. Hey, girls, my name is Jen Cod and I'm seeking advice from a child free woman's perspective on how much I should really expect from my best friend when it comes to my children. We have been best friends for twelve years, and to this day, she prefers to not hang out if my boys are with me, ages ten and six. I definitely don't think they should be around every time we hang out, but she has never made any effort to bond with
them or get to know them. I try my hardest to never cancel plans with her, but sometimes I ask if it's okay for the boys to come, and she reschedules every time. She does claim she wants kids, just not yet. But I don't understand why she doesn't want anything to do with mine, seeing as how they are such a big part of my life.
Much love Jen, Okay, Well Jen, as the Devil's advocate, I would just say, are your boys of fucking pain? And they ask to hang out with a they ask yourself that question because maybe they are, Maybe they're very rambunctious. Maybe that really annoys her.
I don't know how old did she say at ten and six?
So probably yeah, Like that's not for everyone. And while it's disappointing, and I would always make an effort for any one of my friends that have children, I not an effort to hang out with them, but an effort to know about them and get to know them, or you know, I don't need to be on playdates with them. I know it's your best friend and you want her to be more interested, but I don't think you can
impose that upon her. Your life choices are not her life choices, and while you may want her to care, you can't control the way she feels about that. And maybe your kids are just not for her. Like, I don't know a lot of people that aren't mothers that want to hang out with a ten and six year old boy.
I don't, especially ones that are not related to Technically, yeah, yeah, my friend has has two boys and she's one of my closest friends.
She's never asked me to hang out with them. And it's not because I wouldn't. I would, but she's never asked me, So I just I don't think that that's a fair request. What do you think, Ruby, Yeah, well.
I think that. I mean, I'll speak for myself. Some people just aren't good with kids. One of the I think one of the reasons I never wanted to have children, is I didn't really like being a child, Like I didn't even know how to be with kids when I was a kid, Do you know what I mean? Like, I I don't know, I just don't really know how to talk to kids. I don't really know what they're interested in. I kind of clam up around kids, like
I'm just not a kid person on any level. And so yeah, it kind of like completely changes the dynamic of a friend.
Hang.
If I think I'm going to be spending the day with my friend and then her kids are there as well, because I just get really kind of self conscious and sort of like are we talking to them?
And if so, what do we talk about?
Because I've got no idea, And like there's also other stuff that could be going on under the surface, Right, it could be that I don't know, maybe your friend is would like to have children and can't for some reason that you guys haven't had time to discuss. And actually she doesn't really want to be in a situation where she's constantly reminded of the fact that she hasn't
got there in her life yet. Like there's so many things that could be going on that are kind of resulting in this but yeah, I can understand how it might feel hurtful.
It's a distraction also to hang out with two kids, Like then you're not really hanging with each other. It's all about the kids, So like that's take away from the friendship. And I understand she's saying once in a while, but I really don't think it's a it's a fair demand of your friend to want to hang out with your kids. You can't make somebody want to do something.
And I think don't take it personally either, Like she's not doing it to.
Be hurtful to you.
She's just not interested in your kids. And I think that's okay, just seeing as time with her is time away from your kids. It's grown up time.
Yeah, thank you so much, Ruby Warrington. I wish you so much success. Thank you for being our guest today.
Yeah, well, thank you for having me.
I mean, honestly, Chelsea.
After your Netflix special came out and then you produced your genius, genius Diary of a Child Free Women real, I literally was getting DMS and messages most days, several messages most days.
Send Chelsea a copy of your book. Chelsea needs your book. So thank you.
I'm so happy you've got the book and that you're reading it. To have had this conversation with you and have had the opportunity to answer some of your your reading questions today, it's been really great. Thanks.
Yeah, it has been Thank you so much.
Bye.
Okay. Second shows have been added for those of you coming to see my new stand up tour, which you have to come because I'm having the best time. We added a second show into Cincinnati, Los Angeles, which is actually October thirteenth. There are still tickets for October thirteenth show in Los Angeles. We added second shows in Chicago, the Chicago Theater at Portland, Oregon, San Francisco. They're both
almost completely sold out. Detroit, Michigan, and then we added a second show in Cincinnati in the daytime at five o'clock PM. I'm doing my first show because I don't have a night where I can go back, so we added a second show at five pm, and the original show is at eight pm. Original show is sold out. Second show tickets are available Cincinnati. I'm also coming to Cleveland on October twentieth, and then I'll be in Columbus
October twenty first and Pittsburgh October twenty second. So those three shows I still have tickets available, and you can go to Chelsea Hamler dot com for other tickets and other information. And if you want to buy some of our merch, that's all available on Chelseahanmler dot com. And yeah, guys, I'll see you on the road.
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com