The Right Complexion for the Connection with Alex Stapleton

It's me Chelsea, right. Is that the name we settled on? That is the name. Okay. It was a long, long road to shoot this documentary, very long, Okay. So Alexandra, that's how would you like me to say your name? Alex I call you alex Is it Alexandria, Alexandra, Drea, Dria? But I like alex Okay. So people don't call you Alexandra. No, they call you Alexandria, your mom. No one calls me Alexandria because it's too fucking long. It's too freacking long.

And my first name is actually Kristen. Well, that's it's nice to meet you. Then it's good, thank you. But my middle name is Alexandria. I changed it to Alex so people would think I was a man when I first got started. Oh wow, that's smart. Did that help you? I don't know. I don't think so. My first film, I would go into you know, meet the interview subject and they would say, we're waiting for Alex Stapleton and I'm like, that's me, and they're like, no, we're waiting

for Alex Stapleton, the director. And so it didn't really work because people still didn't associate me, a young woman of color, you know, with being a director. So right, I don't I don't know. Yeah, well it also helped. I mean, it doesn't go a long way because once they see you, then they're like, oh, you're a woman, let's start disrespecting you. Exactly. Now, that's not every situation. We don't want to I don't want to act like that's what it's like all day long, but it is

for just last year, just last year personally. So tell us about some of the films that you've directed to people who aren't familiar with you are So the first film that I directed was called It was about Roger Corman. I don't know why I'm spa Corman's World is what it was called. It was a very long time ago. That was the first film I did. It took me five years to make. I have a crush on him while I did. You did Is he alive? He is alive?

Well then I still do Okay, great, just like Robert Muller. Yeah, there's the same majoringe, same age range. Maybe I think Roger's a little bit. Roger's a little probably in his nineties now, but that tall, kind of tall lankie in control, smarter than me. Yes, he's Roger's a sexy guy. I met you right after you came off of shooting something

with Lebron for HBO. So I show ran a series right before coming on to this project with you called shut Up and Dribble that Lebron executive produced with his company spring Hill. That was a three part series for Showtime. It was a great show Time. And you know, I direct a lot of branded content. UM have done other docuseries projects. We've I've worked with Eddie Schmidt. Yes, desmid is the director from my Chelsea does doc series and yes,

he introduced us. Actually when I was starting my Netflix show, you came in right We met then, so we came together. This was kind of a lengthy process because we started a project, then we kind of stopped down, and then

we started again. But we had to get all the right kind of um parts and pieces in place, which was kind of took a lot longer than we thought it would because white people were so resilient or resistant, resistant to speaking, resilient, so resistant to speaking about the subject of white privilege, which is the subject we wanted to encapsulate. Was coming from my own backyard, something that I didn't realize I was a beneficiary of until I was older. I thought I really worked hard for everything

I had, it was because of all my talent. And then I realized, we'll wait a second. That can't be only the only part of the equation. So we came together, and you came and kind of had an idea of where we should go and the issues to tackle, and you gave me lots of reading material. One of the books that I want to recommend People's White Rage by Carol Anderson. I'm Done talking to White People about Race is another one by a British woman, is a great

book that I read. And then Black Like Me is a great book which is a guy that he puts shoe polish on his face and he poses as a black man in the South. In the time period of time, was that sixties, back in the back in nineteen I want to say early sixties, maybe even I think earlier late fifties. So these were great reading tools for me to get started. Obviously there's myriad options to read about being a person of color or about white privilege or

white denial of white privilege. But anyway, you get the picture. So what did you want to accomplish with this film and what do you think we have accomplished with this film? What were your goals and what's the reality I thought we were going to in racism with this film. Yeah, it didn't happen, but um, I know I really wanted to talk to white people. I mean I think that was a really big objective. Even when we first met and we were talking about, um, the different ways that

this documentary about white privilege could shape up. I thought that, you know, with all, with every kind of racial incident that happens in the in this country, um, you know, be it on Twitter, with like the Starbucks incident, in white women especially calling the cops on people of color, just because they're black, or even more extreme incidences when things turned violent, you know that when white people commit

hate crimes. I feel like white people never really the white perpetrators or the white people that are responsible for that, they kind of don't ever talk to the media, Like they go in hiding. Um, they get pushed, you know, like social media comes after them. The media always gives a voice to black people who have been hurt, and

that's great, like we need that. But I feel like, why do these white people kind of get to just disappear without having to really take responsibility for their actions, and not only take responsibility, but but a real chance to see if they can learn, um and understand really like what they did, I don't know, just to to to be responsible for their actions and to to maybe to try to like curb that type of activity, you know, for other white people to stop acting like that. And

um we were shut down. Um every white person that I that we went up that we went after to try to speak to them, um uh, to shine a light on what they what they did, and to understand like why why why do you feel so threatened by black people? Why? Why what's going through your head? How how were you raised? How how why is this an issue? Um, no one really wanted to talk. So black people were really were very much willing to talk to us, and we got a lot of black people to participa in

this show, Carol Anderson, who was awesome. It was amazing. It tell us a little bit about your background because your mother is black. My mother is black, my father is white. So I am technically by racial, but I identify as a black woman. I grew up in the South, in Houston, Texas. My mother is also a black lesbian, so I grew up with a lesbian mom who is in the South and got to kind of see a very different way of having to deal with the world through my mom and with race. My black family very

working class. My white family, they're very Texan, you know a lot of Bubba's. But my family is really close. So I think that what brings them together is this struggle just you know, every single day to put food on the table, to support their families, their kids, send try to send a kid to college, you know, if possible, just the regular things that most Americans want to do.

And I feel like, and this is something that we talked about when we first met I feel like the South gets a lot of like the attention when it comes to race relations because everyone's like, oh, God, down South,

everything is so messed up. And that's what people that's like the narrative of you know, liberals in California, especially white people and in New York coastal elites, they feel like they live in this kind of utopia, and people in the South or you know, it's like the clan is still coming and white people are it's segregation is still alive and well, and Jim Crow is alive and well.

There are problems in the South, for sure, but I have never lived in a more segregated environment than my time in Los Angeles, right, Which is something that we talked about in the film, because we realize that while these coastal a liberal coastal liberal elites or liberal coastal elites are okay with saying, you know, voicing their opinions that they want everybody to be treated equally, that every you know, everyone's progressive, everyone wants equal rights for everybody,

we still self segregate. We don't want to live next door to black people because white people live in certain areas and black people live in certain areas, and Asian people live in certain areas, and Korean people live in certain areas, not to be confused with Asian people, and that everybody self segregates in this city as as they do in many metropolis is if that's how you say

that plurally but metropoli if uh. But the other thing, and then the opposite is true that black with people and white people in the South have no problem living together and community and having community get together. They just don't want black people having the votes and the voices that they have. So it's the opposite. There's two two bad things, right, Yeah, I mean I think if we're generalizing, I mean those are really big, big generalizations of of

the differences. I think that down South. Look, and I'm from one part of the South, but I think that the cultures do commingle more because, um, class is kind of like more of an issue a lot of the times. It's not to say that that, you know, as a black woman growing up in the South, and especially like what my mother went through that um my mother was born into you know, during Jim Crow, Uh, the South was completely segregated. Integration happened when she was in high school.

So I'm first generation integration. UM, I'd say for that big leap to happen, it's actually pretty progressive compared to Los Angeles or even New York. You know, I agree with you. I think that people choose to self segregate here a lot, but then they go to the ballot, you know, or they feel like, oh, I'm I love Obama.

I mean, that was another thing that we connected over that I think a lot of California white liberals, UM, I felt that there was a race problem, um when Donald Trump got elected, and that wasn't really news to most people of color, and that was something that we kind of talked about. You thought that, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but that please do.

It's better than I don't when I speak for myself, but that you felt that we had kind of moved past race right with Obama being a Laively, I thought we were moved past racism and we were moving past uh, sexism. I mean, I didn't even realize that sexism was the issue that it was before this Me Too movement. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Brandon, what about you? You grew up in South Dakota. Yeah, I grew up in the Midwest, and are there any

black people there? In South Dakota? There is a large Native American population, so for us, that was the segregation that you saw was the Native Americans who still live on reservations. But what's interesting here Alex talked about the race issue that sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind. So you think these issues have been resolved, but then, like I told you recently, I was in San Diego with my boyfriend and someone drives down and yells fags at us, and it's like, oh no, these things are

still happening. You just live in such a bubble that you forget there are places outside of your area that are still facing these issues. Friends are still going through things. Okay, this is a question really quick. You are classying people as black. What is appropriate African American or black? Before I continue, I think it's up to the individual. Okay.

I prefer black, Okay, because I think African Americans sounds really formal okay to me personally, But if if I meant another black person or like I need to be addressed as in Africa, Okay, Well, for like a default white person who just wants to be respectful, Like what is there one that we should go with? In your opinion,

I think you're safe with either. Okay, well, so like African American friends who still say like yeah, like I'm in l A and I'll go to a club and like you get a second look like there's and so it's not until someone says something because if you're not personally affected by it, like I haven't been called a fag since junior high and I'm in you know, liberal San Diego thinking like their rainbow flags flying, that's never gonna happen here for me walking down the street holding

a hand, but it still does, and it's important to have those reminders. I think that these issues are not resolved, like they are still happening and we need to be aware of it. And San Diego is not as liberal as l A. No, but you start, I mean it's

more pretty conservative. Yeah, I mean, well, okay, for me, it was like you're being in are in a serious like there are rainbow flags flowing right right, you're not other gay couples that I'm not an anomaly and yeah, but were you flying those rainbow flags off of your own shoulder or were there, Actually, sorry, rainbow fireworks out of my butt hole, Like that's how they how you

celebrate pride. Thank you, thank you very much. So to that point, I think that there are a lot of us who kind of assume, you know, when I say us white people, oh, I've not seen racism lately, it's not happening. And it is. And that's kind of like the thing though, right, It's like white privilege is that you don't have to deal with it on the day, on a day to day but or notice it or no, you're not looking out for racist acts because you're surrounded

mostly by people who look like you. Yeah, and as a and I think that, I mean, it goes back to why I think it was easier for us to find black people to sit down and talk with us, because, I mean, pretty much the culture black people as a culture, it's a weird used to having these conversations. It's not um,

it doesn't like it doesn't make us nervous. Um. But I think that we found and and I don't I don't think it's a secret that white people kind of like the hair stand up on their backs a little bit. Like the minute that we get you know, people get into a racial conversation or a conversation about race, because my personal opinion is that and I even I mean, I would say this even for my white family, like white people tend to take things personal when we talk

about race. They tend to make it about them. It's like the only time that they take on this weird, But it's a classic defense mechanism. Anytime you're defending yourself, you want to like lay blame, get blame off of you, so which means that it doesn't mean you're guilty, but

you're acting like it. Yeah, when instead you can engage somebody and say, oh, how can I be better educated on the subject matter, Like you know, when you're talking to somebody in the trance community, what would you like me to refer to you as be generous and thoughtful and consider it? And then then you can't make a mistake, because how can that be a mistake. You can't ask a question and then be attacked for wanting to know the answer. That's just common courtesy. Well, that's why I'm

so excited for. This is the podcast I've been most excited for because and so when you say, like, oh, white people don't want to talk to us, like God, that's so interesting because like I was so excited, like I wrote questions on this morning, like I couldn't stop thinking about Okay, so Alex, it's coming in, like how can I grow as person? Like how can I be better?

And I think sometimes people take that on as like they just want to cause but seeing the documentary be produced and still realizing like no, there are always ways to grow. And of course, with like the political climate and in the media, you see so much more of

what the issues really are. And like one of them I want to talk about later is Hallie Bailey being cast as the Little Mermaid Disney, right, who is an African American, you know, young girl, and people are up in arms about it, and so I just haven't been able to stop thinking about it. So today before I came in and like this is like I'm so lucky to be able to go and like talk about this and nasty questions because that's the only way to get better. So it's sad that like someone else who is a

Caucasian white would not want to take that opportunity. Well that and I think I think the really big thing and I hope that this documentary because I feel like it's it's not like there's a you have to be white or black or Latino or whatever to watch it. But I think that it's because we're kind of using your story, Chelsea, is like your story of white privilege.

I feel like it might resonate with white audiences. The soundtrack should have been as I walked through life as a white no problem most and nothing happened or everything happened. But I feel like white people, I mean, it's not a feeling, it's factual. White people need to talk to white people more. You know, it's like men who don't talk about their emotions. Yeah, it's that. It's that being stuck and not a woman able to deal necessarily get that man to talk about as emotions because there's so

much stuff attached to that. And I feel it's a fact that that a lot of white people don't necessarily hear the same message from a black person or you know, a person of color communicating, hey, I was offended because you did this, this and this and this, Whereas if a white person enters the equation and talks to another white person, it's like they can have this off the record conversation, you know about how to be a better ally. Yeah,

so I think it's a similar thing. I think people, you know, white people are stuck, but with their lack of I mean, not all white people. I think there's obviously many that are trying to do a better job. But I do think that it is similar to men being stuck emotionally. You know, it's like that hump you don't want to get over, and when you do get over it, you're like, Okay, I'm so much more educated now.

You know, now I get it, So tell me about Okay, because you forced me to reunite with my ex boyfriend from high school, I forced you to basically, Yeah, I mean, how would you frame that I don't want to meet him again? And you know you didn't, Well, you were very It's not that you didn't. I would that I were nervous, yes, And I didn't know if he was you know, how he was going to look at me.

I mean, he had spent fourteen years incarcerated, which I had no idea because you told me I think I've been out for fourteen years, so we flipped that information. So that was a shocker. But I did go and see him, and this was a guy who I dated in high school. It was a drug dealer. His name was Tayshawn. We got arrested a couple of times for pot. Well, he got arrested. I was let go every time. I got pregnant a couple of times, had two abortions, and then I moved out, went back to my community and

never saw him again. And then he ended up being put in the system for minor possession of marijuana. Now it wasn't it wasn't a couple of yeah, So that led to another one and which led to him being found guilty of armed robbery. But he had had a full scholarship to un l V, which he lost basically because of being put into that system where I was there for both times and was told by the police

to go back to my house wherever that was. And when I was done with Taishan, when I woke up and was like, okay, I'm not going to be in this world. Actually, my father dragged me out of there by my hair and was like, come back, You're not staying here anymore. I was able to go back into my life and go I didn't graduate high school. I wasn't supposed to graduate high school, and time but because of where I was from and because of my family, and they bent the rules for me, and I went

to summer school and I graduated. I had lost all credit of my junior year in high school and made it up in a summer at my own pace. I went to alternative school so I could graduate in time. So I was afforded the luxuries that Taishan would never ever have been afforded. And his life was pretty much it's not ruined because he's out now and he has five children, and he's got a job, and he's healthy

and he's not using. But his life went off the track, whereas mine was fine and from an outside perspective, largely due to the color of years. Again, yeah, you had the complexion. I wouldn't say that was the Yeah, that's what said. I had the complexion for the connection. And then Tyshawn also thought we were going to get back together and that he was coming to California to live with me, and I had to remind him that he's on parole and he can't leave the state of New Jersey.

I would have been a fun surprise for me. I think that that was a really interesting point, like behind the scenes, because when I met you. I feel like the narrative in the story. I mean, you even open this podcast up with white privilege. For you, I think you kind of in your head thought that it started when you got to l A and then bam, you know, the white privilege meter was on right you started, you

got this career. Then I became an elitist, which is what I always wanted to be, which is, you know, my goal was to have lots of money and cleaning ladies and people who worked at my house because I wanted the exact opposite experience of growing up in my parents house. So that's that. So that's the truth of the matter, and that's where I think that's where it turned on for you. And I think with the film what we were trying to accomplish was to say, no,

this this goes way deeper than that. And the fork in the road probably started even before Tyshan. It definitely did, but that was when you were still in high school and look at the difference of how your life turned out compared to his. And it's not to it's not

to exploit Tyshon. It's not to make it like oh, he like you said, he's in a really good place right now, and his family, like they're very happy and he is not using and I think, you know, has kind of come out of that, but he lost a lot and it was interesting for me to kind of try to peel back the layers a little bit too, for you to see like, oh no, this goes way deeper than just being in California with my comedy career, you know. And I think that's kind of runs parallel

to how I think white people think about race. Like you kind of white people are like, oh well, I worked really hard for this, and Okay, I can kind of see what you're saying a little bit, you know, when it comes to like my job or or you know, they want to kind of they can accept white privilege and small doses, but white privileges it's it's yeah, it's huge, It systemic. It's you know, it goes all the way down to like too when we were babies in a hospital,

you know what I mean. It's so rooted in like our everyday life. You know, we're judged by our sex that we are, as well as the race that we are, and like where we come from. I mean, all of these things are factors and how our lives are shaped. We didn't get really deep when our film. We weren't able to cover every topic, but I thought that it was really interesting that your story, also with Tyshan and what you experienced in high school, also was reflective of

what was happening in the state of New Jersey. And to go back to this whole false narrative that everything's okay on the coasts and everything's fucked up in the south. New Jersey is like one of the worst states when it comes to the disparity of white and teens of color, but specifically black teens that are incarcerated. I think the national average, and we have to this is a fact checking, I believe the national averages seven to one, and in

New Jersey it was thirty to one. I think it's going to be a shock to people that New Jersey is actually very messed up when it comes to they have a lot of racism in New Jersey and they're and they're dealing with it on a systemic level, and there's people they're fighting the good fight to do that work. But so it's no coincidence that you know, your story actually proves the statistics you've got when you encounter law enforcement.

It was like, Oh, this poor girl needs to go back to hurt people, whereas Tyshawn is you know, thought of as a perpetrator, you know, no second chances. And that was something that Ryan when we sat down with with Ryan and New Jersey, he I think he really was good at explaining that for too many black and brown kids and teens, there are no second chances. You know, there are no um, there's no there's no room to mess up. And I think that is something that's armored.

That are a reality that I think that I wear, and that people of color where all the time that we don't always if I mess up on a job, it might like devastate my career, you know. And for a white male especially, I would say even more so than a white woman, it's like, oh, you know, we're very forgiving of mistakes, and especially with teens and with young people and with kids, I think that you've got

a lot of opportunities to correct yourself. Yeah. I mean, there was a judge the other day that excused a boy that was accused of right because he had good grades. Really, there was an article I read. I mean, I don't know what came of the case. But yeah, he was saying, well, he should get lesser sentenced because he's doing really well in school and he had a scholarship, as if that exonerates you. What is your experience working as a female

black director. I've been working. I dropped out of school. My father doesn't know that, but I dropped out of school when I was nineteen. Well that's how you become a director. Congratulations, And I'm turning forty. Congratulations for twenty years. And I started out from the bottom, you know, as a p A and like in turn actually and worked my way up. I don't think I thought about race, to be honest, in my twenties a lot, because it

was just so hard. I mean, I was living in New York and it was just hard to like keep the lights on. Like I just I don't know. I was just on an autopilot and I didn't really think about being a woman. And I don't think I thought about my race often. It wasn't until like after my first film that I started to notice this weird kind of difference with all of my colleague, like all the guys that were kind of that we all started at the same time and when they made their first feature.

Their careers started and they were get you know, they were making they were directing commercials and getting TV offers and and I was like, how is this magically happening? And then my film, you know, I'm not saying Corman's World is like going to blow you away, but it got into the can Film Festival, it competed at Sundance. We got bought. I mean that's a big deal for an indie. Like it's a great film. I've seen it, well,

thank you. And I couldn't get a job. And it was so weird because I had a lawyer and I just remember her like you need to do this, and you need to do that, and I like, I need to pay my rent next month, Like I you know, I don't what am I missing? Like how is everyone else continuing to work and and and and to grow and excel? And I'm not. And I'm not going to say that that was because I was a black woman, but I started to my eyes were kind of open to a little bit of a different reality that I

felt that I was facing. And I probably feel like it was a little bit more of just being a woman, because I think that this business, I think it's different for black men than it is for black women. You know. I think that to be male in Hollywood as a

director is a huge advantage, and it still is. I think right now it's great to see so many Black women and so many women just in general get these opportunities to direct on television shows and to get features and to get you know, big budgeted features off the ground. But see how long it lasts. Do you think it's women like Shonda Rhymes that have Like to me, she was one of the first big mainstream You saw her everywhere,

she had hit shows, a contract with a network. Was there a turning point that you did see that You're like, it's this person or it was this event that now diversity in African America for black people. I think it was Ava. I think she was, yeah, diverne. I think that she because Shonda Rhymes is like doing the scripted television kind of thing and is and I think that she's great and that's amazing. It just didn't really affect me. I met Ava Sundance with Corman actually, and I was

on a panel because it's Sundance. That year I was a black female director with the movie and competition and I wasn't invited to any of the black events because for some reason, no one thought that I was black. I don't know if it was because of the movie that I did or whatever. And I wrote to that I think it's like the Black House at Sundance. And I wrote to them, I was like, you're doing all these events for all the black directors, that's dance and

I haven't, like, can I come? And they were like, oh shit, like we thought you were Native American. I didn't. I don't know what they thought I was. I don't think they thought I was a woman either. That's where the name. That's where it happened to me as well on the phone. On the phone, Um, but Ava did I did it. So anyway, they invited me to come and speak at this on this panel and Ava was there, and that was the first time I met her. And

this is before she was soup. She blew up. And Ava's magical because she doesn't just take success for her. She brings everybody with her and I and she was doing that then, like no one knew who I was. I was just like young. I was like twenty eight years old and I was on a panel with you know, a black audience talking about Roger Corman and it was not hitting, and Ava was like, um, Ava really had

my back. And then she did press after that, and she kept in all of her interviews, she kept saying, there's not it's not just me, there's other directors that are right behind me, and she would put me in this and that you know, of of of folks. And I think that's when I started to kind of the light went on for me. And I still think she's doing that, you know, like right now, I'm sure running

a series for effects. And so Cheryl Danier, who's you know, an amazing black lesbian filmmaker, is the director producer on Queen Sugar, and Ava's doing it on Queen Sugar. You know, she she only brings women to the table, and I think this season it's it's predominantly women of color that she's giving rise to. And then that way these women can go out and go get more jobs, you know, to keep the lights on in their house and to grow as a director and to to get better at

their craft. And I have to say, Chelsea, like I think I totally completely mean this. I feel like you're a person that does that. I feel like you're a giant champion for women. I think for you to let me do this film and to hire me really was a very personal thing for me, because it's you don't get those opportunities all the time, and it's not like I had done five million things on Race. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that we found each other. I'm glad that we met, and I'm glad that we had a good

working relationship together. And I mean it was a big learning experience for me. I'm only sad that, you know, you feel like you want to tackle a subject and you just scratch the surface, and you really want to dig into something. Because when I did my original docuseries for Netflix, the Race one was the one that I found most compelling personally and like as a viewer. So I wanted to scratch the surface even further, which we did.

But there's just so much to do, and so in so many places and directions to go in it's hard to focus that attention, and the world was happening in real time. And you know, I think that even in the in the span of like when we were making this film, I feel like the United States of America changed so dract i mean, it's still changing so drastically

and it's hard to keep up with. I mean, when we were first doing this, I know that we spoke a lot about we did not want to include forty five, you know, in the I don't even like saying his name. I'd like to say to all of my listeners I wanted some acknowledgment for how a few times I've said his name in this podcast. I barely talk about the guy anymore. So I just want you to know that I've been touched and healed. Hallelujah, sister, and we to

YouTube Brandon a men sister. Okay, well, this sounds like a good time to take a break. We don't really talk about him at all. I don't even think he's mentioned in the film at one point because he's not the problem. He's not the problems symptom. And I was confused in the beginning that he was the problem. He is not the problem. He was a catalyst. His election was a catalyst for an awakening I think with a lot of white folks, Yes, and that is a good thing if we can get to the next level, which

is like he is no different. I mean, he he's just he's a symptom. Exactly what you said. He is no different than you know what this country has faced over and over and over again, dating back to hundreds of years ago. And I think it's missed opportunity to make race conversations in this day and age about and not about real things, you know, real talk, Um, how

do we change the laws? And that was another really big thing I think that we forgot to mention, was you know, I think that the challenging part was because this is such a giant topic, where do you how do you like hone it in? Um? And yeah, your personal story, we followed that, but I also think that your work. I think people were will be surprised. Even

when we were shooting, I think people were. I saw that for you, it's felt like there was a connection between race and voting because you are so invested with getting people out to go vote, and that seemed like this kind of interesting like intersection, you know, when talking about white privilege, because if you don't vote, if you don't have a SNL and election, you can't change the systemic ways that the government and the laws are hurting

you as a community. And I you know, I know it's not like the sexiest subjects, you know, to talk about voter suppression and all of that, But I actually think it's the foundation of UM and it's educational because people some people don't believe that voter suppression is happening, and people don't understand how that how it can happen, or they don't understand what jerrymandering is. All the things that I you know that I learned after the election.

You know, so many people UM don't know about and you don't realize that there's a huge lack of education in this country about those things. So voting is the tool that you have to use. It is the only way to have your voice heard, and which is hard for people when they get turned away at voting polls or voting places and told to go somewhere else after they've you know, I remember that story that Oprah told,

Remember when she was campaigning for Stacy Abrahams. She was talking about that a man who went to four different voting places and walked and walked, and she said, every time I vote, it's for that man who got turned away from four different places and he'd walk something like, you know, eight miles. No white person will ever walk eight miles to vote. That hasn't happened once. Just like women don't masturbate into plants, white people don't walk to

the bulls, and if they do, it's around the corner. Brandon, did you have any follow up questions? I have a lot that I would like to get into it. Because it's you know, alex Is, it's in media. I'm just going to take a quick shower. Um, great, okay, Well, so back to the Little Mermaid. One of the things I want to touch on is that there's a lot of feedback right now of a cartoon character who is white with red hair being recast as an African American girl.

So obviously the aesthetic is completely different. And when I first saw the news, my initial reaction, as you know, someone with nostalgia towards The Mermaid my favorite Disney movie is is that she just didn't match what you're conceptualized idea of her should be based on the cartoon. Now, Hallie Bailey looks exactly like the Little Mermaid in African American forms. She's got the lips, the nose, the big eyes,

like she looks like a Disney princess. So I had to take a second to think that anyone can play that role. It's a fairy tale. It's a fantasy, and mermaids aren't real, but there's still that like momentary, like it should be a white girl with red hair, even

though I know that's wrong. So like what feedback, Like how can we reconcile our ideals of like that certain roles should be played by certain people, or that now they're saying there's a lot of like necessary diversity, that like people are just being put in positions or like roles are being recast just so they're African American or just so they're Asian, or just so their Native American. And I had a friend who said, oh, now I can't get a job because everyone's hiring you know, minorities

and women. Right, He's like, and they're not qualified to do these jobs. I'm they're not more qualified than I am. I'm like, yes, but you've had an advantage by being male, right, so now it's time to give it up a little bit. And people don't want to deal with that because again, quality feels like something taken to some people who have had it their whole life. And I feel I mean, yeah, I mean the statistics should still prove that white men

are totally okay in the United States of America. Actually in the world, they're they're doing just fine. Um. I think that the that the representation for the Disney Princess is kind of multi pronged because I grew up with with you know, aerial Ariel aeriel uh Ariela, that's where I want to go, but I know that actually it's

arial short for Ariela. Oh my god. Um. I grew up with that white princess too, and I think that that's sad that like there's this whole dre of not just instead of celebration, instead of saying yeah great, great black girl gets it, this is awesome. People are like pissed. It's kind of crazy. And if there's like Facebook groups being set up to take her dance, I mean it's nonsense. Um. Well, first of all, no one should be that committed to

any any dictionalized character. Sounds like you are as committed as one can be. Well, because in my head, as that six year old kid watching that movie, you have

an expectation. But I'm not going to start like I don't give a ship like she First of all, she has an incredible singing like she's going to kill it as a little mermaid, but there was still that momentary like, oh, it should be a white girl with red hair, but you're by you just being honest about that weird kind of shift in your head and being able to vocalize that, and like life goes on and you were able to kind of like reset and go, oh, you know right,

like I can't wait. I can't wait to see her in the role. The same way my favorite version of any Disney movie Cinderella with Brandy and Whitney Houston, like I still watch it, like I still will. Smith is Aladdin. I didn't like that, but I didn't like the movie, Like it wasn't because of him, Like I just seem to have missed a lot of nothing, nothing about what

you guys. You might as well be speaking North Korean. Um. I think that, uh you know, I think that if you get if it stings for a second, get over it, you know, I mean that would be my what my opinion about two people who are which is actually a very honest, natural reaction. It's a it's a better reaction than to you know, it's almost a more organic reaction

than to go yes, that's great. Yeah, I get more worried about the white person that shows me this article and it's like, hey, I just want you to know disease really doing a good job. They've gotten. You know, aerial is now black. Aren't you excited? And they're bringing

that to me. I have nothing to do with like the I mean that would actually be more alarming than someone like yourself saying you know, I saw this and I was like kind of like weirded out by my own brain that in my subconscious mind, I was kind of like, well, not adolests and expectation again, like that's what it was. But again, a lot of characters are

being repurposed. They're actively trying to incorporate diversity. So what is your take on shows that are doing that, Like a lot of Netflix shows like Every Table has an Asian and African American a native like in a white person, which I think is eight. How does that compare to TV shows like Blackish that it's a predominantly African American cast, Like do you feel like one is better for mainstream exposure than the other, Like seeing an all black family

versus like a black kid who's been positioned somewhere. I think you need it all. But the real change that I'm not saying, that I think really needs to happen is like, who are the executives, you know what I mean, who are the people in the boardroom that are green lighting these shows? How how black? How many black executives are are are working at Netflix, or working at Disney, or working at Effects or you know, at these companies

that are generating all of this content. That to me is actually fixing the system more so than like, oh, for for a year, we've got like some we're trending right now with like our African American content. I was just reading the New York Times this weekend, had a really good article about black directors from the nineties that got these one off you know, I mean, like I like It, like That, which is one of my favorite movies in high school. I was directed by a black

woman Juice, you know, a Tupac Shquar. I mean, all these great movies. Obviously, John Singleton was from that generation, and he went on to have a very fruitful career r I P. But all of these other directors they got one shot and then that was it, and then they were kind of like left in this you know, very white male world to try to survive. And then when Hollywood was like, oh, these are making money, let's

order ten thousand of them, it was great. But then for their second films when they made something like The inkwell that didn't do that well, it was like, oh, you're done, you know. And I think that that's what I'm nervous about with this era, with the me too movement and with you know, um, this movement to to put more people of color in roles and even as directors, because that's great, but we really need to see more women and more people of color like working at these companies.

You know that, because those are the people that make that continue to make the decision, you know, moving forward well, and it's impactful behind the scenes that there's a certain expectation then where a lot of times, I think you can see it in anything that's being produced, it's a white person making a decision on behalf of a minority, on how the idea of representation should be, not necessarily

how it would actually be. And so for a lot of the companies, like the big companies Netflix, Hulu, HBO, they're doing this, I think that there is more of an effort to put out content that is specific to those audiences, but not to make sure that there are people in place to ensure that it's actually right. It's it's gonna it's has staying power, it's going to stay, you know, Like when we were making this the Netflix show Dear White People, I believe that that Netflix canceled

the show after two seasons. Yeah, and people went like lost their minds and then the show stayed. And that's great, right, But maybe if there were a couple more black executives at Netflix that could have been communicated without this like you know, like French warfare situation on Twitter, you know, to keep the to keep that film alive, and I mean, excuse me that that TV show alive. And I think you know, when you're especially when you're dealing with content

that that is about race. Um, I think that it's important that as a director, I feel like it's actually critical that you have black executives that you can actually have like an unofficial conversation with where they understand the nuances of what's happening, so that you can make a better product. Right, you can speak to more people and when you're trying so there's a lot that gets lost

in translation. And this New York Times article about these directors from the nineties, I think that that was something that they faced and then and then you know they their careers didn't have staying power. And that's really that's uh, that ain't cool. But I'm not saying that it is a fad. I just feel like the way we keep it, keep the momentum up is to look at it like as a whole, you know, wholeheartedly. But yeah, there's just got to be more mix up and mash up. Yeah.

I think that's a good point though, to not leave it as is, to think of it as a long it's the long game. It's not like you know, filling up a tank. It's actually trying to figure out how you sustain this and and that should be the intention. And that's I mean, that's Hollywood. I mean, I think

this business is went for Corman's World. Actually interviewed Jack Nicholson and he was reflecting on his time back in the nineteen sixties and seventies, and he was the one who like taught me this, which was, you know, if something something is successful in Hollywood, like people order literally ten thousand of them, they want the same thing over and over and over again, especially if they can do it cheap or for free. And um, that's just the nature of the beast, that the business that we all

work in. And that's fine, but like, let's put some people with Let's let that beast and like the people behind the scenes look a little bit different and be from different worlds because maybe I don't know, the approach will be a little a little bit different and they don't know what's going to strike, what the next thing is that's going to rake. Um, Okay, well this has

been very enlightening. I want to thank you Brandon for preparing for the podcasters all your questions and um, he's you're a great interviewer, Brandon, Alex, you're a great director, and Chelsea you're just you. Thank you, Gus, oh, thank you Brandon. Okay, Alex, your turn, Um, Bernice, thank you for being here. She's passed out on the floor and we will see you next week. This has been like will be the Death of Me Life Will be the Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.

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