Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea.
Where have you been this week?
Well?
I have the first week off that I've had for Thanksgiving week. Oh that's my first week off. I'm hanging on by an actual threat of dental floss. I am really really. My body is shutting down. The plane rides, the partying, the more tired I get, the more I drink just to get it up, like I need help. So and that's backfiring. My voice is gone. I've been touring. It's my favorite tour. I mean, I say it's my favorite whenever I'm doing anything, because it is. Yeah, but
it's so much fun. I don't know if I mentioned this last week, but Eddie Vedder came to my show in Seattle. I Goss Jill and we had the best fucking time.
That's so funny.
They were awesome. I mean that My tour managers like, Eddie Vedder's coming to the show tonight. I'm like what? And then we were in Seattle. I had two shows in Seattle, fucking epic in Seattle. Oh did I announce my Canadian dates? Oh? You know what shows I have coming up? I still have tickets for these shows. My second show in Cincinnati it's at five o'clock. I'm trying
one of those shows in CINCINNT. I have two shows that day, one at five pm and one at eight pm, And the one at eight pm is sold out, but the one at five pm. I want to promote this the Taft Theater, which is in Ohio, obviously, because we're talking about Cincinnati. I also added a second show in Detroit. So there's a Thursday and Friday show in Detroit, and there are still tickets for the Thursday show November thirtieth, and that's coming right up. Yeah. And then I'm coming
to Louisville, Kentucky. There's tickets for that. That's Sunday, December third. And then I'm coming to Montreal and I have two shows in Toronto. We're coming to Ottawa, We're coming to Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Calgary, all of my Canadian lovers. I'm coming to Victoria, Kelowna, Vancouver, and then Salt Lake City and Denver and Maricopa, Arizona and Richmond, Virginia. It just goes on and on and on, and that's my schedule like through May. But I didn't
say all of the dates. I was just telling you the ones that have tickets. So if you want tickets, go to Chelseahandler dot com and come to my shows because they're so much fun and you my Yeah, we had we had a little after party because some of my friends, my sister's friends were there. My sister wasn't there, but her friends came, and then we had I ran into a girl that I hadn't seen since I waited tables twenty five years ago. It was called Roasty. I saw her Roberta.
She came.
Her husband's a doctor in Seattle, so my doctor in Seattle because I had my cardio myopathy the last time I was in Seattle. They're friends and they came together to my show. So that's my friend from twenty five years ago who was awesome, and I'm going to see her again in Whistler this winter. And then I saw some other blasts from the past and we had this nice little after party in our green room, which was so fun. And then at midnight, I was like, it
was Thursday night, our Friday night. I had a show in Seattle on Friday and Saturday, and I left and when I left at midnight, Eddie Vetter and his wife were still partying in my green room.
That's your friend.
That's the kind of spirit I like.
I like it. That sounds great.
Yeah.
So I mean I have a lot of rock and roll connections this year. People rot rot my tour. Dave Grol Yeah, well, Dave Girl, I've known for years. I love Dave Girl. But a lot of rock stars are coming to my shows and I'm fucking down with it, and now I need to start going to see their shows.
So I think I'm going to see I think I'm going to get a list, and so I'm going to be up in Canada and Whistler for a few months doing all my Canadian dates after I'm done with my American dates, and then I come back for my American dates. I think I'm going to go see who the big guys who are coming through Vancouver and go to shows
because I love shows. Now. I used to hate concerts, really, I don't know why, just because of the sheer, massive people like I'd rather be on the stage than in the crowd.
That makes sense though, does it.
Yeah, some people love concerts.
Yeah, it's different going from to like a little hole in the wall concert versus like a big concert with all this like spectacle and special effects and everything like those are really fun.
Yeah, I mean they're all fun.
But I told Brad like mid pandemic, when things were really bleak, I was like, it's kind of random, but like, let's go.
See Pearl Jam when this is all over.
Like for some reason, that to me was like this that will mean this is all over, so it's still on my list.
Listen to how cute he was who My manager goes, hey, okay, you know they came early to be backstage, so they weren't in the crowd, and they were like, he's like, Eddie Vedder's here. I go bring him up and Jill his wife, who's fucking awesome too, and she they came up and he was like, oh, sorry, we didn't. We didn't come in and have a drink. He goes, oh god, we didn't want to bother you before you perform, like we were just coming to the show. We didn't even
expect to meet you. I'm like, are already talking about better? I know how it works when you go to a show and they're your celebrity and that you get to meet the person most most often, but it was just so cute. He was like, so, it's so amazing when you beat legends like that and they're so humble, so.
They're not He is not like a one thousand Brown M and M's person or whatever that writer was.
No, he was drinking Corona and she drinks champagne, which is why I guess we had it because my tour managers hooked to their guy. But it was just so nice. I just love when there's surprises like that in the audience, and that keeps happening on this tour. So I love it. Thank you.
I love it well, Chelsea.
Next week is Thanksgiving, and I wonder you know, I know your sister in law kind of has.
She's I'm dealing with oga over Christmas. I see her for Christmas and we are all going to We're going skiing my whole family. And this is how nice I am. I'm moving out of my own fucking house so and renting my place so I can go be with my family in a nice, bigger house because they really won't settle for anything less, and we need a nice house because there's so many of us. So I'm moving out of my own house to move into this rental house with my family for a week and then no Thanksgiving,
I'm gonna spend with Connie Britain. I'm going to Connie's so I'm going to be in La. I have a week off, Chelsea.
Is there anybody in your life that you sort of like don't align with politically and like how do you deal with them at Thanksgiving?
Etc? Well? No, I mean not in my family. I don't really have people like that where we don't align politically. I mean, now, with this everything that's going on, that's more of an issue, I would assume, because there's so many people that are so upset for multiple reasons. You know, it's horrifying what's happening on both sides, and the anti Muslim behavior and the anti Semitic behavior. So but and then that becomes an argument about Palestine versus and that's
not the that's not the fucking argument. So I'm not willing to even have that discussion any there because it's an unwinnable conversation. Everyone's going around in circles. You could go around for seventy five years, you could go around for a thousand years, and they would still be the issue. Yeah, So no, I don't have that in my family, and if. I mean, my nephew can be a little bit conservative, which is annoying, but we all really jump down his throat. You know what.
I have a niece that's like kind of turning that corner too, and I'm like a little concerned. I'm just hoping that when she goes to college, like she's gonna get some different opinions and some different you know, worldviews and come back to like she used to be super super liberal. And I'm like, please come back to the please come back.
Yeah, you know, I know, I know. It's very hard. It's hard when you have that in your family because you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not how we are. You can't hate people, you just can't. Like, that's not I don't want to live in a world where there's so much hatred. Like I don't want anyone to die or be killed. I don't like that.
Guess what, Like the solution is not continuing to kill, Like it's just not.
I know, we should just send four women in there. We should just send you know, fucking Angela Merkel, Send Christine A. Monpour, she read very good about the Middle East. Send Hillary Clinton, and send Michelle Obama let them go in, come up with their solution and then tell us what it's going to be.
Send In grena Tuneberry just for you know.
I like Gretituneburg it is it is actually technical.
For now it's Tunberry, but everyone's a sun Berg.
Yeah, like, oh over there the corrected.
Like how cute is that? That's very cute? Well, Chelsea, we have Shelley back.
On the Showy Gilskey, my dear friend and her friend and her friend Justin wrote a book and guess what the title is, How We Ended Racism. You know Shelley from this podcast because she runs Pandemic of Love and I've talked about her organization many times. And she also had another book come out a few years ago that we talked about called Sit Down to Rise Up. Shelley and just welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Shelly, Welcome back to the podcast, Justin. It's nice to finally meet you.
So nice to meet you, Chelsea.
I've heard a lot about you Visa VI Shelley, and a lot about your experience writing this book together. And the book is called How We Ended Racism, which is in the past tense. We'll get to that and I can't wait to dive into. First of all, the boldness of this title, which I love, and we can talk about how you guys came together first. Yeah, let's start there.
Well, when we first first first came together was actually in the rodeo of our first books. And so I was going on a book tour and somebody said, Hey, you need to talk to this woman named Shelley because she knows everybody in the whole world. Basically that helps a lot of people in the world, and she'll help you get to the right folks. And Shelley and I ended up connecting so deeply, like on our first call, which I think happens with Shelley when you know we're
with good people. And the rest was really history in terms of how we started working together.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I was going to teach in Southside, Chicago. I was invited through the Obama Foundation to teach there, and I was going to walk into a room with a bunch of mothers who lost their children to gun violence, and most of them are women of color. And what I recognized is that it would be really great to have a person of color in the room with me, so that it wouldn't because I only had a very short time to be there, and I realized, usually it takes me a good two to three hours to even
like get their trust, you know. And so I invited Justin just on a whim. I said, Hey, what are you doing on this date?
Can you can you.
Come out to Chicago? And he said, let me check. Sure, absolutely I'm available, and.
So and we had never met, never met.
In person, we'd never taught together in person, and it was a really rich and wonderful experience.
It was amazing.
We actually it felt like I had been teaching with him for a really long time. And we actually created bonds there that we still have now with that community, which is incredible.
Wow wow. Because she I went to a gun violence retreat with Shelley once too, and we made a lot of food in the kitchen, organic food. I think we made a beet soup, aborched. I was not what I was expecting at all. I was like, oh, there's a lot of team building here. But yes, I went to and by the way, by the way, I haven't been asked back, so Justin, I just want to let you know you're obviously crushing it.
Oh my god, Well thank you.
And Shelley's been on this podcast before. I've talked about her foundation, which is her Mutual Aid Foundation, which I've mentioned on the show multiple times, and she's helped out so many of our callers. It's called Pandemic of Love. And so talk to us about justin your background, like where are you from and where did you grow up and give us all that stuff.
Yeah, totally.
I grew up in northern California, actually in a town called Pittsburgh, California.
A lot of people don't know there's Pittsburgh in California.
No, my god, I didn't know. We needed two of them.
We don't.
But this one, this one is just like twenty minutes east of Berkeley. And I grew up actually in the hood, to be honest with you, I grew up in a home with gunshottles on the outside of my house. And so when speaking in these kind of communities that Shelley's
talking about, it's something that I've really lived. And you know, one of the things that I talk about all the time, which kind of led me into the work that I do now, is I grew up kind of adapting to all of my trauma, being what I call a chronic overachiever, just feeling like if I do enough, accomplished, en I succeed enough, if I'm always good, if I'm always perfect, and I'll finally be out of here, I'll finally be enough. And I overachieved my way to getting a full ride
scholarship to go to UCLA. I moved to LA, went to LA and it wasn't until I actually got to UCLA, came out of the closet, had extra money for the first time, was living in a safe neighborhood, and exhaled that I realized that I was absolutely depressed. And I was asking this question of like, how is it that I have everything that I've said I've ever wanted. I'm and I'm depressed, and it's you know what sent me
to a therapist for the first time. I'm ever This was almost twenty years ago now at this point, and the therapist said to me, you should try meditation. And I literally said to him, meta, what like this before the iPhone?
Right?
I was like, I didn't know any black people meditating. I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And he said, it looks like you've been trying to find your happiness outside of yourself, and you've missed the only place you haven't looked within. And the thing is, Chelsea, like I had. It's commonplace to say that now, like find your happiness within, but I had never even heard that phrase. So I like lift up my arms and I'm like within what?
Like where what are you talking about?
You're like here under here, find exactly right?
Exactly?
I mean, I definitely was trying to find it in places with my pants down. I'll tell you about that, but that's another podcast.
Okay, that's another podcast.
But anyway, that all leads me to say that I think so many of us we have this experience in our lives where we're trying to change the outside, hoping that it will change something within us, and we find and learn it again and again and again that we could change our relationships, but we're never going to be in a good relationship if we haven't changed who we are. We can change our job, but our job is always going to feel like shit if we don't change who
we are inside of those jobs. And so all of my work now that I've really dedicated my life too, is helping people not just change what's on the outside. But change what's within. So I do that in a lot of different ways through music and writing and teaching,
meditation and books. But Shelley and I really came together to write this book to help people understand the work that it takes for us to actually change the world in the way that we're all saying that we want it to change, and who we have to become inside to really be able to show.
Up for that.
Yeah, I like what you just said. I can relate to that a lot, changing you know, not the outside. I also think trying to control the outside, trying to control the outcome of things right, is never the way forward, you know, controlling something without looking within. You know, part of looking with in is being able to understand that the outcome and the outside are not things. You know, you have to be able to go with the flow and move like with the you know, with some would
say with the universe. I would say that now. I used to I used to be like you. I'd be like, oh god, all that language is so free frou. But once you get clicked in and you're moving and everything's in a flow state, you understand the power of that, and then the kind of power that that attracts and the kind of energy that that gives off and brings in. You're bringing in so many more people when you embody that. When you do look in, you understand yourself. You realize, oh,
I want to give out high vibes. I want to spread good vibes. I don't want to do the negative stuff, you know what I mean? My purpose here is joy's sunshine and laughter. Whatever your purpose is. So I love that I can relate this to that a lot.
I feel like people often ask me, you know, I'm thirty five, I'm turning thirty six, and people often ask me like, how are you teaching this stuff and doing this at such a young age? And I just feel like, honestly, I was just lucky enough to have hit rock bottom at such a young age and had the resources at UCLA to actually get help at that age that was just younger that I just happened to be starting this at a pathway that I think is before a lot
of people do. And so I just feel really lucky that I get to be like a young queer black man who has been able to teach this work in these spaces. And that's why Shelley was talking about like us coming together the diversity that is happening in the world as it relates to wellness and well being. It takes people being able to see people who look like them.
And it's just I feel grateful every day that I get to be representative of a community that sometimes is represented in this work in this world.
Okay, So let's talk about this book and what's inside this book. Obviously it's a very bold title choice, and explain to us how you got there and then what people are going to be able to learn from reading this.
Yeah.
So Justin and I are both Garrison Fellows, the Garrison Institute, which.
Is in I'm also a fellow, Shelley. So just back to fuck up? Okay. So okay, so yeah, welcome.
To the podcast.
Back up, Shelley.
Back it up? Where do you want me to back it up?
Shelley.
That's very inappropriate. That's really not the kind of book we're talking about.
Okay.
I can't believe you would reduce our podcast to this.
That's Justin's other book.
Back it Up? Okay.
So Justin and I are Garrison Institute fellows, and the Garrison Institute Fellowship actually at the helm of the program is doctor Dan Siegel, who you know really well and who has been on the podcast. And the challenge that the Garrison Institute Fellows had in this two year program that we were in is to think about big questions, like really big questions that almost seem like completely insurmountable and unsolvable, et cetera. And Justin and I came together.
This was around the George Floyd murders the summer of twenty twenty. We started thinking about what needs to change in this world for this kind of bullshit to stop happening, you know, what actually needs to change? What can change? Why do we feel so helpless, why do we feel so hopeless, and why do we feel so disempowered, like we don't feel like we can actually change anything. And what we started to do is we started to put
together a program. First and foremost, we were like, let's bring together people to just have a conversation to really start exploring the answer to that question what can we do? And then what we started to find out as we start as we dove sort of deeper into just the rhetoric right around anti racism, and we read cast and we read all of the books, all the things that
were coming out around that time. We recognize that in none of those books, in none of the DII programs, and none of the racial bias training programs, does anybody ever say that racism can end. All we ever talk about is that the work needs to continue.
Generation after generation after generation. So and I looked at each other.
We asked each other, you know, what would it look like if racism actually could end? What would it look like if we stood in the future and looked backwards and thought to ourselves, what do we need to do? Who did we need to become back then today in the present moment for racism to actually end.
And I think one thing, Chelsea that I'll add to this is we thought it was crazy. So remember the Fellowship asked us to ask these big questions, And we looked at each other and.
Said, could racism end?
Like everything is saying this is going to be a lifelong fight for generations and generations forever and ever and ever and always and always and always. And we were like, but for why we do so many things in the world, Like we accomplish so many things, And right now everyone's talking about getting to another planet, and we're like, if we land on Mars. Without ending racism, we are fucked, Like, we're totally screwed, you know, if we figure that out first. And so we got what was so cool is we
were about it too. We went in with a genuine question. We pulled hundreds of people together, We got anthropologists, sociologists, neuroscientists to ask the question, is it actually possible for this to end? And what we found actually against what we thought was going to happen. The answer was yes, it actually can, and for the first time in history it can because of everything that's come before us, all that we know now.
But it can't end.
That possibility doesn't exist without these eight specific pillars. And so our book kind of lays out the eight pillars that would have to exist for the idea of ending racism to even be possible. And so it's not really a book that like ten Steps to end racism. It's not like that. It's like, stand in the future, racism is over. What are the eight things that would have had to happen now for this to actually go down?
And so that's what we write about, right.
What conditions needed to arise in humanity in order for us.
To get there? And can you talk about a couple of the pillar before we go to callers.
Yeah, sure, so there's eight of them. I'll start with the one that we normally don't start with because it's the one that people often like to talk about, which is we learn to have big conversations and how to have conversations across divides, and one of the things that we believe the world is ready to graduate from and needs to evolve from, basically immediately, and it is time. I think we all know this is from calling people out to doing what we have called and coined in
our book Calling Forward. And the reason we talk about this is what we know from all the science is calling out which leads to cancel culture, which is shame and blame and guilt, and it never ever leads to the situation that we're actually trying to stop really changing in the big picture. It leads to canceling people instead
of canceling a problem, which is a situation. And so what we know from all the research that we looked at is if you approach a situation with Shane blaming Gil, I don't care how bad it was, it is a thing that somebody did. Getting them to learn or grow is basically virtually impossible, and so we want to get people to learn and grow. What we have to understand is our book is based upon why I'm starting here. You can't be antie everything to get things to move forward.
Being anti does it tell us what we're walking towards. It just tells us what we're fighting against. And if you're going to be fighting against something, you're ultimately saying that thing has to always exist so that I can keep fighting it. And so we're looking at no, not just what are we fighting against? What are we anti? What are we walking toward? What are we going forward too?
And that's really what we're trying to do with the work in this book is teach people how to have the conversations, how to move forward to what we all actually want and.
What I believe. Chelsea.
Let's say this is a black gay man who has been all over this country. I'm half white. I have white family who lives in Alabama who are Trump voters, and they are the most I don't know if they'll vote for him again, but they did, and they are the most lovely, amazing people who I love with my whole heart. And what I've learned all around this country, is that what we're seeing in the news in the media is not what I would say most the majority of people
are this extreme. I think many of us actually want the same things. We want to walk in a similar direction. But we're being torn apart by all this council culture and this anti everything in this call out everything, and we're trying to gather that group of people together so we can walk forward together.
You know, it's so true, like the canceling and shunning people, Like if that worked, police officers wouldn't be up to the same business that they've been up to for the life last fifty years. You know, like people get arrested, they lose their jobs for assaulting and murdering innocent black men who are just scared to be pulled over, who run from them out of fear. And you would think with social media it's all over the place. I'm always like, how do these men still think they're going to get
away with it? And it's like it clearly doesn't make an impact that some of these men have lost their jobs and some of them are spending time in jail. It doesn't have the impact. And so the canceling of people and the calling out you're right. Isn't a way to learn, It's a way to shame someone. I mean, it's a nice step, in my opinion, to as a warning to people, but you know, it's not the most effective way, and clearly obviously it's not. Well that's fascinating.
I love that, and I mean I love this book because I like anything that talks about ending racism. Obviously, my hope for another planet is that when we do make contact with another planet, all of those people will be black. So that's my personal fantasy that we will recontact with whomever they are living somewhere else, because there are people out there, and I yeah, and then America's gonna be like whoopsie doodle.
Yeah right.
I doubt I'll be around for that moment. But anyway, Okay, so are you guys ready you want to take some calls about on this topic. We're gonna have people call some questions and that's the name of the game on this podcast. So okay, Catherine, what do we what do we got going on today?
Well, first, I'm going to make us take a little break and we will be.
Right back to take callers.
Okay, We're going to take a little break okay, and we're back.
We're back.
Oh, I have a little frog in my throat. Excuse me. I had a coffee this morning, and I'm fucking bouncing off the walls. I don't normally drink coffee.
That's not your usual thing.
Well, we're actually going to start with a caller. Usually we start with an easy one. But I know you guys can handle it.
So.
Abigail is in Colorado.
She is thirty five, and she says, my husband and I have been together for six years. We have different political views, and his friends share his views. My husband and I have never had any major issues about our con views, other than being annoyed from time to time, most of the big issues we agree on. His close friend comes over a couple times a month and spends several hours drinking. Early in our relationship, I actually enjoyed
it and would even suggest it. The problem is his friend loves to bring up topics that make me uncomfortable, one being politics, but there are many, and they're offensive. It's only after he gets drunk, and it always feels like an attack because he knows where I stand on most issues. I feel like he just wants a reaction if I react. Then I get very defensive and never say what I really want to because I'm afraid of being so reactive. If I say nothing, I spin out
for weeks thinking about what I should have said. It's maddening. My husband always gets pretty quiet when this behavior happens. He knows I don't need anyone to defend me. I'm a big girl, but I can't take it anymore. I don't want my husband to not hang out with his friends, and I appreciate that they always hang out here instead
of going to bars. I've been meditating, listening to podcasts, and reading lots of books like Letting Go and The Untethered Soul, trying to let go of my negative feelings towards him.
What should I do?
Abigail Hi, Abigail Hi, Hi. This is Shelley and Justin. There are guests today. They wrote a book that relates to what you're talking about. I don't know how people do it. I'm like you, listen, I'm like you, But people like that, especially someone who's trying to get a rise out of you, you better figure out the toolkit too. As my friend would say, water Ski above it all. You cannot engage with somebody who's trying to wind you up. I mean, if that's not the dynamic between men and women,
that also needs to end. That is the most annoying thing for a man to sit there and needle you about something he knows you're passionate about. So I would just I would really try and use all of your toolkit so that you can a either laugh at anything he says and just belittle that, not in a belittling way of him, but just belittling his behavior, like I'm
not engaging with you. That's just too ridiculous. You're too ridiculous, Like I'll talk to you about regular things, but just trying to get me upset, and I'm like, it's just too stupid. And also, do you need to be subjecting yourself to him because what reason? Because you like your husband to be home drinking rather than out drinking.
No, I mean that's nice, don't get me wrong, just to not think about like drinking and driving and stuff like that. But other than that, it's just his friend that he's been best friends with for like I don't even know, like twenty years. So I definitely don't want to try to like create any sort of wedge that's not it. I just wish he would stop doing this because, like I said, like he doesn't even remember the conversations, which is just crazy.
Well, which is even more ridiculous for you to be upset about, you know what I mean, He's drunk and just blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You don't even need to engage with that. And at a certain point, when someone's that drunk, like you're totally able to have them leave or remove yourself from the situation, like there's no reason to subject yourself to that.
Yeah, because I know that this is like a me problem,
like I need to figure out my reaction. But also down the road, my son is a toddler now, but when he's older, I just feel like I'm going to have this explosive reaction if he says something you know, racial or homophobic or anything like that in front of my son, I think I'm going to lose it, and I need to, Like, I just don't want him to ever be exposed to hear someone that he's supposed to love and respect say terrible things, do you know what I mean?
Well, that's your job as a parent to not have those people around your children voluntarily A I mean hot parenting tips for me be anytime you lose your shit, you've lost the argument. So anytime you are up in arms and screaming and yelling, it's nobody takes that seriously. So it is a practice to control yourself. I used to do that all the time. It's not effective, it doesn't work. When you make a point quietly and directly, it has much more of an impact than you jumping
around screaming and yelling and being defensive. Shelley and justin over to you thoughts, feelings.
Oh yeah, Abigail, I feel so understanding of what you're dealing with. It reminds me of somebody that we wrote about in our book named Joe, who dealt with this with his coworkers. He was like going out to lunch with his coworkers again and again, and there was a few coworkers who just kept saying racist jokes, who kept saying all these remarks, and he didn't know what to say.
And I want to just have There's a section.
In our book where we walk people step by step through how to set boundaries and in a way that actually works and is meaningful. And I want to honestly, I just want to promise you that we're going to give you a gift of our book ourselves. So we're going to send it to you so that you have a copy of it to walk through this step by step. But I want to give you a piece of this here that I think is really important to know, and
then I'll pass it to Shelley. A big part of the reason why we don't set boundaries we lie to ourselves and convince ourselves that we're not setting the boundary because oh, I don't want to create a wedge between my husband and his friend, or I don't want I want to make sure that I don't ruffle any feathers, or I want to make sure that I'm being nice, and we kind of act like the reason we're not setting boundaries is because we're so nice, But what we've
actually learned from all the studies around this is it's actually the opposite. We're not setting boundaries because we don't want to have to sit with having caused someone else disappointment.
So we will abandon our truth to make sure that we don't have to sit with someone else being disappointed with us, and so we'll let ourselves, continue to get run over, continue to be upset, continue to be angry, continue to be in some cases this is not the situation that you're in, but like abused or bothered, also that we don't have to have somebody go I'm a
little disappointed in you. And so if you could just own that a part of the reason you're not saying anything is not because you don't really feel strongly about this. It is not because you maybe don't have the tools to speak about it when you're all sober and bring it up in a meaningful way. But it's because you're afraid of you having to sit with the reaction of if he gets upset, or if your husband gets upset
about it. And so this might be a starting point for the conversation is share the dilemma instead of going in with this anger and solution. Share the dilemma and start with your husband and say, hey, I want to talk to you about something. Here's the dilemma. You're not going in with this hard boundary answer. I need him to stop. It's Hey, I really love your best friend and I want us to all be able to stay really close, and I care about him and I love
when he's over. And at the same time, it's really important to me that we're creating an environment where we're not talking about these things because it really bothers me. What do you think we should do? How can we handle this together? That's a whole different way of setting boundaries. And now you're involving your husband and you're a team actually wondering how to do this, and you have the same conversation with him. Hey, he doesn't even realize this
is even happening, Shelley, I'll let you jump in. I do I want to monopolize this. I know you have something to say.
That's very good advice, very good advice. I love it.
That's super helpful.
No, I mean, yeah, there's not a lot to add here. You know, what I will say is that I personally had this experience with my husband, Jason's friend, best friend, and he would constantly say really sexist and aggressive things. He would come over on Sundays, they would watch football games, and it would just, you know, it would be fine
when he got there. And my son was always at home as well and looked up to his quote unquote uncle, and it became really challenging for me to be in the same room as my husband and his friend when he came over and they started drinking. So I made a conscious decision definitely did what Justin said, you know, raise the dilemma.
And then she also started drinking. That's how she happened. You know what, can't beat them, join them, but.
Not with them, but not with them.
Yeah, basically, you know, you have the choice. I feel like you're kind of giving your power away in a sense, and I recognize that, Like, the one thing that I can control is where I am physically when this person comes over, or whether or not, you know, if you're concerned about you know, you said, you know, I don't necessarily want them to it's nice that he's at home, but I'm just thinking to myself, like, maybe it doesn't
always have to be at your home. You know, we live in an uber world, Like, yes, they're drinking and driving, so then you drive them to the bar and yeah, you know, and you can have your husband uber back, or you can send him the uber, you can go pick him up, or there's so many different options as well.
But the idea is like, don't give your power away, don't put yourself in a situation I remove myself from that situation, and eventually, I will tell you that became a little bit wiser about it and was like, why doesn't Chillie ever want to hang out with us anymore?
And I finally, when he was sober and he was willing to come to the table and have this conversation, I had this conversation with him, and I will say that he actually apologized for his behavior and was a little bit more conscious about it.
At that point. I still can't stand him, but still.
I mean, it's also it's just a nice test for you, you know what I mean, to see how you can handle a situation that is difficult, that is causing you distress and handle this in a different way, Like you know, you probably haven't had to deal with this specific, you know, situation before, but handle it. And you're going to feel so good after you do handle it. You know, obviously when when he's not drinking. You can't talk to someone when they're drunk or in a blackout for that matter.
But you know, there are many different avenues to like address this at first with your husband and then you know, in a very mature and affectionate ray even exactly.
Yeah, And I think Also, you know, of course you want to keep your child away from this, but whether it's from this guy or in seventh grade or in college, he will be exposed to these.
Types of opinions.
Now, this is something I'm dealing with, like with my nieces and nephews, and just to be there to have those conversations from the other side, like well, this is what I believe and this is how I feel about it. I think is so important that they just hear that other side all along.
Yeah, I totally agree, honestly, Abigail, That's what I was going to say, is the most important thing for your son. You're not going to be able to protect him from these conversations. I mean, maybe you can protect him from a bit in your home. I'm not saying I'm say anything, but what you can do is model for him how he can show up inside of these conversations. And that's where you get to really make a big difference.
Also, you have every right to tell him. I mean, that's a perfect in It's like, I don't I don't want my son hearing any of this stuff. Those are your opinions, You're entitled to have them, but not when you're at my house as my guests, Like, I don't need my child hearing that, and it's under his own roof. This is a safe place for him, and I'm his mother and I have every right to protect him from that. You know, he's going to hear that outside in the
outside world, but not under my house. Not in my house, Like, come on, it's not your belief system. That's not part of what you have to put up with.
So yeah, no, that's all super helpful. I think I just needed to hear someone tell me, like, saying nothing is so much more powerful than trying to engage, because anytime I've tried to educate or just try to listen or try it just it never it always makes me spiral later, and it always makes him feel like he won or whatever, like and I just I need to not engage.
Right, Yeah, Well, thank you so much, Abigail, and good luck. It's a tricky situation.
Take care, Abigail, Thank you so much.
Thank you, care dear, thank you.
Our next email comes from Margo. Margo says, Dear Chelsea. After I graduated college in twenty twenty one, I went abroad to solo travel for a while, but I ended up never coming back. I've lived in three different countries since then, and have worked six different hospitality and retail jobs. I'm currently living in Australia and I'm strongly considering moving to Vietnam to teach English soon, but my dad thinks it's time for me to come home and start my career.
Since I'm almost twenty four, I understand where he's coming from, but I'm worried that if I don't go now, I never will. I really value the sense of autonomy and fierce independence I've developed from not being committed to one home, base, job, or partner. However, I do know that in the near future I want to have children, a partner, and a
successful career. I feel at once too old to continue my current unconventional lifestyle and too young to enter a life back home where I could turn complacent doing the mundane. Do you think I should get serious or stay adventurous or is there a way I can keep the sense of wonder and freedom even without traveling and while I'm trying to join the corporate ladder, get married and have kids. I don't know, girl, Margo, she's twenty four.
You say almost twenty four?
Shelley would you like to begin.
Almost twenty she is, Yeah, Wow, I'm.
Gonna save my feedback for the very end.
Okay, Wow, I'm.
Just like, wow, I'm floored.
I mean, it's interesting because I spent the first you know, twenty years of my life climbing the corporate ladder, doing everything that people told me I should be doing, you know, went to school, got a master's degree, did everything the right way, got the corner office, you know, made a great salary, and like Jessa was saying earlier about his life, like it was the most miserable I'd ever been in my life.
And it finally at the age of like.
Forty, I was like, burn this all to the ground, you know, through the match behind me, and was like, let's go, Let's go live this wanderlust adventurous life that I didn't really have an opportunity to do when I was younger. And so I would say that, especially because she's only it seems like twenty four. Wow, you know, you're a quarter of a century old almost. It's hard to like imagine what life will be like at age fifty.
But if you know, you're thinking about what your parents or your father is telling you, you should be doing, and I would say don't let people should or would you? I would say, absolutely continue living this adventurous life because you will not only when you travel far you find yourself, that's first of all, and second of all, you will find your tribe. You will find the people, and maybe
even find your husband. Maybe he's not back quote unquote home, maybe he's in Australia, maybe he's in Vietnam, maybe he's or your partner. I should say, because I don't want to assume what your sexuality is, but I think you should absolutely continue to live what feeds your soul, because when you come back home, you will there's a very big possibility that you will live a life filled with
resentment and remorse and what ifs. And it's it's worse to live a life of what ifs, a life laden with regret, than it is to live a life that feeds your soul every single day.
Yeah, I mean ditto all along that pathway. I think what I'll say is that Shelley and I you know, have worked with hundreds of thousands of people all around the world at this point. And what I will tell you, my dear Margo, is we work with people at all ages of their life who would just die to have the chance to travel in the way and experience what you're experiencing right now.
Would just really want that.
And you are on a pathway that I think your family and your parents it's not that they want there's something that they're trying to create, something bad for you. It's just there's a different life for them. There's something different that they know and that they may have defined as success. And what you have to do is really ask yourself, what does success look like for me? What does happiness look like for me? And follow that path and if the pathway that you're on is it, do it,
Because girl, you are twenty four. I remember when I was twenty four thinking that I was old and had to have all my shit together. Oh my god, if I only knew how much life there, you know, is hopefully still left to live and so enjoy, my dear.
Find the pathway and you'll find home.
But you know, having a house doesn't mean you have a home, So don't make it like it's all about moving and buying a house to you know, save your life here.
Yeah, and don't listen to your father. Okay, like, don't listen to some man tell you what is best for you, even if it is your father, because your life sounds incredible. I'm like, what what I want to be?
You?
And you're twenty four years old. I didn't have a career until I was thirty two years old. I didn't make a living until I was thirty two doing what I wanted to be doing. So I think you should stay there, go to Vietnam, go then go go to Laos, go wherever the fuck you feel like going. Do whatever you want, and don't put a time limit on anything. You know, time is like, this is the most important thing you could possibly be doing with your life as
seeing the world. And you're right. If you go home and you find some guy and you shack up and start a family, you're never going to get these opportunities again. So you know, I know your father probably wants the best for what's best for you, but he's also referencing this constructed society that we're told what we have to do and when we have to do it, And I
say fuck you to all of that. You know you have to follow what you want to do and be passionate about who you are and not listen to anybody who's trying to explain to you what's best for you, because only you know that, and that's what I have to say about that. Hal Amen, Amen, there you go, Margo, There you go, Margo. Okay, don't fuck this up.
Send as a post guard from Vietnam.
Yeah, we better not be seeing you in these parts of the words.
Yes.
Our next call is from Laura. She is in Carasau and is a nutritionist.
Dear Chelsea. After suffering four small strokes in a row last December, my life has been really a roller coaster ride through depression and back. Almost nine months later, I can finally say I feel a bit like myself again. Your special and podcast has been the first thing to get me laughing again in months, so thanks for that. Now here's my question. I have severe ADHD and have tried and really want to meditate, but it's been absolute hell. And I truly mean this with all the respect.
In the world.
But I figured, if you can meditate and actually enjoy it, isn't it possible for everyone? I've tried every app there is. I tried first thing in the morning, tried at night. After eight weeks of hating it and not seeing even the tiniest change.
I gave up again.
My mind doesn't want to deal with another thing to check off my already never ending to do list. Would love your advice on how to make meditation enjoyable. Much love from the Caribbean, Laura.
Hi Laura, Hello, Hi Laura. Our special guests today are Justin and Shelley. They wrote a book called How We Ended Racism. So Shelley has a lot of experience, well so does Justin with meta meditation. So Shelley, why don't you start first about meditation and ADHD and how you combine the two.
Absolutely, So, look, can I be an ADHD er and say this is fucking awesome? Absolutely interrupt and interrupt you right away.
Yeah, I just keep interrupting us, I mean, and then we'll get the picture, no problem.
Yeah, And what's fucking awesome is the sunshine and your sunglasses and you're sitting outside in a tank top somewhere in the Caribbean. Let me say that I am married to someone who also does not enjoy meditation in any way, doesn't necessarily see the benefits if you will, And what I will tell you is that there are many modalities to meditation. I think there's this stigma that you have to you know, sit down, cross legged, do an app
close your eyes, do breathing exercises. And that's actually not true at all. When my husband, for example, plays guitar, he's meditating or sure, he's lost in some other universe and that is his way, that is his meditation.
When I have a friend.
Who's a runner, and when she runs and trains for marathons, you know she runs long distances, she's completely.
I tried that now, Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think the idea is that there's something that is there, whether it's when you're walking along the beach because you're in the Caribbean, when you're swimming, when you're paddleboarding, when you're where do you find that your mind is the quietest, you know, where there's got
to be something. There's got to be one thing. If it's listening to music, if it's playing music, if it's but the idea is that wherever you find that bliss, wherever you find that moment, then I would say that's where you should go to meditate, right that, Because I think this stigma of like I have to do it in a certain way or use a particular app or something is not correct. It's not correct at all. And the other thing I will tell you is that there's also,
you know, benefits to just mini meditations or microhabits. And so what I will say to you is that even if you're just doing breathing exercises throughout the day that takes sixteen seconds ten seconds, you know, Chelsea, I remember you and I were talking about the meditation exercise of six one eight or four seven eight, which is like breathing in for four, holding for seven, exhaling out for eight. What that does is it recalibrates your vagus nerve so
that you can calm yourself, you can center yourself. Even if you just do that every time you wash your hands right after you go to the bathroom or you're in the kitchen or whatever, and you start incorporating these mini habits in your life, that is meditation too. That's also a form of meditation, and you can get the
benefits of it right because it recenters you. It brings you back to the present moment, and you're able to now not just necessarily react, or you're able to be self aware that your mind has wandered.
Oh my mind wandered. Let me bring it back.
And so in long forms that may not work for you, but in short forms that is maybe there's a way that it will give you a sense of self awareness.
Yeah, and Laura, where is that place that you find bliss?
It's difficult because I don't know, Like you always make jokes that you have ADHD, but if you.
Have it, it's just it's not something that's that goes away.
I have about eight hundred channels in my head that are constantly giving some kind of signals.
And it's very rare that they're completely turned off.
Some like if I'm caught in a really really really good show on Netflix, then that that sometimes you lose yourself in something like that. Mm hmm, if it's a really good book. But I'm not, Like I tried marathon running. I didn't all trust, It's just my brain doesn't fucking stop. It doesn't stop.
It doesn't stop. But what you can, I hear you, and you're right, I don't have ADHD properly, so I don't know, you know, I'm always just joking about it. I think I have more add but no.
But it's fine. It's funny.
I left my ass off, But I think that whatever you can do to just relinquish all of the noise, like the added noise, since you already have so much noise in your head. Whatever activity can allow you to put your phone away for an hour, two hours, whatever the best challenge is for you. Maybe it's thirty minutes to begin with, maybe it's ten minutes. But put your phone away and get lost in the activity of what you're doing. And reading a book is a perfect example.
If it's a really good book and you get lost in it, doesn't that feel so good when you realize, Oh, I've been reading for thirty minutes and I haven't even looked at my phone.
Yeah, but I was going to suggest and this is the thing. I need my phone for it, because what I've noticed is that your podcast. That's how it started, because I don't listen much to podcast, but I was looking for something because my brain was going after I had the strokes.
It was I had to go off all the meds and anyways.
It was fucking horrible, and I was trying to find some way to focus.
I could do my.
Job because I own my own company, I cook for people, and I was just putting so much pressure on myself and then the podcast is just like you have this noise in the background that keeps you just focused enough and it quiets down all the other trap that's going on, and I just keep going and going.
So it would involve my phone, but it is like listening, it's very soothing. You wouldn't think it, but it is.
That's okay that you're listening on your phone as long as you're not on your phone while you're enjoying the activity, Like, don't interrupt that activity with other activities. It doesn't matter how many things are going on in your head. You know what happens when you pick up your phone and interrupt something that you're doing, or you interrupt you know, you're in the middle of something and then you're like, oh, I'm going to go do this, I'm going to go
do that. The point is it's to be as present as possible. Right, that's present minded awareness, Like that's it. You're paying attention to the activity that you're doing, and the goal is to find the activity that brings you to that so that the voices are a little bit duller and all of the traction that's going on in
your head becomes a little bit less chaotic. And when you notice that you're feeling that way, then that's an activity that you should do again, you know, with the intention of Okay, I'm going to put my phone away for this amount of time whatever your big distractions are, to remove them from the thing that is going to make you just really be focused and pay attention. And I promise you that if you keep practicing this.
I gave up.
I have to be honest. I had a good, like eight week cycle going and then I gave up.
I know, but you're not going to be able to meditate right now. So just what we're saying is find the show, find the book, find the podcast, whatever it is, and practice doing that for a certain amount of time every day, and I promise you will start to become more focused. You won't, you know, you don't believe that now, but it will. So that's a gift you're just going to give to yourself. All right, justin, did you want to chime in?
Yeah? I would love to.
Actually, Laura, So there's this really amazing book that I know. It's one of the best books that I've ever seen on meditation, and it's written specifically for meditation, like one of the titles originally was going to be Meditation for people who can who can't Stop thinking. That's not the actual title. The title is Stay Woke, A Meditation Guide for the rest of us. Happened to write I happen to write this book shameless plug just.
Recently learned the word plug.
I recently learned what.
I have a different definition for plug.
Yeah, I do too, Actually a few a few, but no, I'm actually sharing this with you because I'm one of these people who I don't have ADHD, but I can't stop thinking. And one of the biggest myths about meditating, it is a myth.
It is a lie. It's bullshit.
No one's ever done it ever in their life. And if they told you they've done it, they're alive. People say that they if they to meditate, I have to get my thoughts to stop or get my mind to stop thinking. That would literally be like saying, oh, I'm going to meditate, I need to get my heart to stop beating. If your mind stops thinking, you're dead. Like the mind thinks, that's what it does. That's literally what it does. Like the heart beats, that's what it does, whether we like.
It or not.
And what we have to learn how to do when we're meditating or anything that bringes into this state. Is what we're really hoping for is to get our thoughts to work for us instead of against us. The reason why there's a struggle is not because you have too many thoughts. It's because you feel like your thoughts are pulling you out of the moment that you want to be in. And so Chelsea's invitation and Shelley's invitation are amazing, but I really want to invite you into this nuance to think.
I'm hearing you talk.
About your thoughts like a problem, and I want you first to reorient yourself to say that you and your mind is not a problem. That's actually the thing. You've got a diagnosis that sometimes when we get these now, we run this story in our head that says, my brain's a problem, and.
If you have a problem, you're.
Going to be fixing it right instead of going, how do I use this that I have to work in favor of me? So I just want to reorient your language around that a little bit and help you see that there's no problem happening here. What there is is a desire for you to be more present in your life. And this is what I think all of us are inviting you into.
You know, no, because I used to use the ADHD as my superpower, like you can do so much stuff. But after I got sick, my mind just kind of became my enemy.
Well, and I think too, because you've had you know, some traumatic brain events. You may need some time to heal with that. You know.
That's that, and that is everyone kept saying, give it time, give it time. And we're I think ten months in now and only now I'm starting to feel a bit like myself again. Yeah, and that's and I am. And I have like a journal. I listened to your shit. I tried the twenty one days a habit forming thing.
I did it. I'm still doing it.
I bought a special journal for it, to do it in the morning and the evening. And I noticed that with certain things.
I really really do try to be grateful.
Like certain things that I couldn't be grateful a few months ago, that I'm like, I'm sleeping again, you know shit like that.
Yeah, love, So I.
Do try to, like I really am applying more of the present stuff. But it's difficult if your brain is natural friend at the moment and it kind of messes with the system.
Yeah, well, I like what Justin said. I think that's really nice that, like, listen, you're recovering. Your brain is your friend, not your enemy, regardless of how crazy your thoughts are, how frenetic it may seem, it's your friend, and you can make friends with your brain, you know.
Yeah, yeah, that's true, Laura. And I'm really serious.
I'm not I'm honest to God, not just sharing this with you to promote my book at all. I'm sharing with you because I actually really think it would help. Like I really am a person who's with you, Like my mind is going all the time, and I thought
I was somebody who could never meditate. And so that's literally why why I decided to write this is because people write these meditation books thinking that you know, everybody can just sit and cross their legs, and you know, like Shelley was talking about it, and we all can't do that, and so we need a space that we can be able to drop into ourselves. So just anyway, just check out my book. I promise it will help you. It's like the biggest gift to me when I hear somebody going.
Through that what was the title again.
It's called Stay whe A Meditation Guide for the rest of Us. Okay, all right, I know woke means all kinds of bullshit. Now, it didn't mean that when I put the book out. But it's not about that. It's about you know, helping us. A meditation guide for the rest of us, you know. So, yeah, you got it, all right.
My elderly mother likes to say she's woke. She thinks it's the thing that you have to say to everyone.
Now, I'm woke, go mama.
Well I feel like this was a very productive phone call.
Yeah, I hope it was helpful.
This is very cool. You need to come perform here. This is I live on an island called Puasa. It's next to Aruba.
Well, i'll be there. I'll be there this weekend.
And it's gorgeous.
It's like everything you can think of a of a Caribbean paradise.
Oh well, yeah, the Caribbean is pretty gorgeous. So you're lucky. Well, I'm glad for you have and heal. Keep healing and keep doing the work. You're gonna you're gonna get to a better place. You're coming out of it.
Well, I mean I meant that I watched your show and that was the first.
Time in three months that I left.
Yeah, it was I laughed so hard. I watched it twice and I laughed again the second time.
That's amazing.
Yeah, all right, thanks Laura, thank you so much.
Okay, bye Laura, all right, bye, Shelley.
I loved what you said about like the short little snippets do because I do have ADHD and that has been something that's like helped me so much, is to just sprinkle them through the day.
Yeah, it's big.
Yeah, let's take a quick break and move back to wrap up with Justin and Shelley, and we're back.
That's my baby voice.
That's also your doggie boys.
Oh, I haven't seen Bernice in so long. I can't wait to embrace her and have her reject to be I'm.
Allergic to dogs. It's the worst. Oh yeah, I know it. I hate it because dogs are so cute.
I'm in the market for some new dogs anyway, since Bert fucking died and Bernice is here or she's no that it was months ago. Don't worry, but I'm in the market and I'm ready to rumble. I just need a full house and that's operational. And then I'm just going to add to my brood. Who knows what's going to happen next in the dog world with me.
A whole pack.
I love it, and probably I see these videos on Instagram where people have like eight or nine chowls, and I'm like, that's what I want. I want to come home and have eight different colored chowls running towards me like a like a kibble commercial.
Oh, like a moving carpet. Yes, yes, you'll be like the Queen of England, like.
Yeah, exactly. I bet people always are confusing me with her anyway. I mean, well, especially since she died. Oh no, there's a new queen.
I forgot.
I thought they all died anyway. Thank you guys for being on the show. I appreciate both of your advice. It was but very great. Actually, you guys both gave great advice. And the book is called How We Ended Racism by Shelly Tagilski and Justin Michael Williams, and it's available now, so please go get a copy, and get several copies actually and hand them out to all the fucking nsholes you know.
Amen, Amen, let's do this together.
Amen. Thank you guys. Thank you for having la Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for coming on. Appreciate it.
Bye, Chelsea.
Do you have some new dates for us?
Oh?
You know, I do?
You know?
I do?
I have a lot of We added lots of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming. We added about fifteen new tour dates. I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia, Santa Rosa, California, Gary and Deana, Baltimore, Verona, New York, and about seven dates in Canada. So go to Chelseahandler dot com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on tour all for the rest of the year and through December, and then next year I'm going to be touring all year.
So come and get it, you guys. It's good times and it's a very very much needed reprieve from all the fucking madness that's going on in this world. So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine. Do you have a.
Holiday themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the questions you need answered about crazy family get togethers, arguing over which cranberry sauce recipe to use, and all your holiday drama. Just send your questions to Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad dickerd executive producer Catherine law And be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com