Psychedelics and Drug Use with Ethan Nadelmann

a few. There's also some Floridian dates in there, since this will be my last year that I'm able to go inside the state of Florida. So check out Chelsea Handler dot com for more stand up dates for my Vaccinated in Horny Tour. These are my last dates. Hi, Catherine, how are you? I'm so good. I'm here in l A and it's going to be a hundred and four this weekend. I left l A because I don't like that kind of temperature, and but I'm gonna see you in my orcas soon. Catherine and I are going on

vacation together with Brad. We're going to become a throople. We're gonna open up their related ship. That wouldn't be weird. You're welcome in. We're really good at snuggling and after care. I was just at a lunch. I'm in New York City this week because I'm here to watch the US Open because I wanted to watch Serena play for the last time. So I went to the first night where she fucking won and it was so special. I just

love that energy. I love watching people win. Yes, she came out in like a glittery wrote like cape, like a queen. Yeah, she had six layers to signify all of the I guess six US Opens. She had one, and she played this girl whose name, God, that's terrible, I can't remember. But the girl was so good. It's so funny to watch Serena play because, like her opponents are always just running back and forth with such athleticism,

and Serena just stands there. She's just like here, I'll return the ball from over here, like I'm not running anywhere. It's pretty amazing to watch her play. She's such a she's a beast. It's always amazing to see somebody who's just at the top of their game, whether it's sports, whether it's comedy, whether it's whatever it is. It's so fascinating to watch somebody who's at the top of her Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love the whole vibe of like tennis,

Grand Slams, Like I've been to Wimbledon. I think I've been. I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the U s Open I've been to. But it's just such a vibe, you know, like you can drink, you watch sports like it's up close. You can see everything, no matter where you're sitting in the stadium, you're just watching the court. You know. It's not like a concert. We have to watch on one of these big screens. And the US Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams.

It's it holds the most seats and so it's massive, and it's just it's. Yeah, my best friend Bitchy, she's my sports friends. She knows, she's always got in roads to any sporting event, so we always get hooked up. So yeah, I'm having a great time and I'm and then I'm going to see you in my Orca. Yeah. And you've been saying all kinds of friends this week, I know, because we're making plans last week. Oh my God, I know, I'm not looking at my calendar. I'm like, fuck,

what the the funk is this? We have a podcast recording it to this interrupts my lunch and mushroom at day. I was so sorry to interrupt. Last night, though, I had the most romantic night by myself. I went to first, I got up and I worked out for two hours because I shot this campaign and I had to really get it together for well one week. That's how I get it together, and then I just went off. Since then, I've gained six pounds and I am just cruising through

Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met my sister. I walked forty five minutes. I met her for launch, Then my friend Pitchy came. Then I walked all the way back, and then I walked back downtown. I got in seven twenty seven thousand steps yesterday. And my goal is just too. I love New York City for that reason. There's nowhere I mean, I just wish I lived in a city that was walkable, not in Los Angeles. Los Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah, but where

else have you been? You've been all over the place. Oh, my gosh, I just got back from Greece and Vancouver Island. I went from Greece to Vancouver Island. Warmed very cold. It sounds like, yeah, well it wasn't very cold on Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went to an island called Leftcata, which I've never been to, with a bunch of friends. We just got on a boat every day and went to a different beautiful restaurant and drank white wine and ate Greek salads and fish, and I could

not have been happier. I actually was able to protect my face from the sun with this new hat I got, so it looked like a dick, but I like, at least my skin is not burned. And yeah, I was on vacation with lots of different new people and some children, so you know how that goes. Yes, I saw your incest story is with one particular who I think was

your favorite. Oh yeah, she's my favorite. The ones who can't really form sentences are my favorites, you know, Like I like when they're beginning to talk but they haven't really gotten the hamstered it. Yeah, that's when they get a full personality. Is when I start to lose issuest. Yeah, the like gibber jabber stage where they'll just like tell you all about their day in total like jabbery English is my favorite. Yeah. I had this four ar old girl, Mia, who was just she was so she was like a

seven year old. So it was so funny. I'd be like, Okay, let's play a game where we count all the boats that are moving in the ocean. She's like, that sounds silly. I've got another game. I'm like, oh my god, she said, I don't think so. She was just so funny, just like and this old British like she sounded like an old British man. She sounded like this is doubtfire. I love that traveling with children is another thing. You got us to have your own timeline involved. I just don't

understand how people do it. How they have so many children and then they have to pack up their car and they have to put in the baby Bjorn and their cookies and their whatever bottle, all of it. And at every airport all you ever see is parents taking their sippy cups and downing the liquid in the sippy cups because the kids haven't finished it. Like I was at Heathrow on a layover. Oh I was in London too. I was at Heathrow and he throws like the strictest

airport in terms of like liquids and fluids. So basically everyone who came through just had to sit there in front of the t s A agent drinking their thermis because no one had, you know, emptied out their thermis. And I'm like, how do people not fucking know about emptying out their thermis at this point? How did they not even doing this for a minute now it's been

since yes, Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just don't think I could have a kid and be the sort of mom who like licks their kids pacifier to clean it before giving it to them, or like like parents. Man, I have a lot of respect, but I can't do all that gross stuff. No, no, it's all yeah, it's too much. It's just never ending. And some people make it look easy, and I respect that because it's not easy. Some people with many Nanni's. We have a very special

guest today. His name is Ethan Niedelman and he is the former Princeton professor who built a political movement to legalize marijuana, roll back the drug war, and treat drugs as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is now the host of the podcast Psychoactive about all Things Drugs, now in a second season, And obviously I would like to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I am not a doctor, I play one on a podcast, that I would never ever encourage anybody to do drugs.

This isn't medical advice, this is my own personal therapy. Ethan. Hi, it's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it. Oh well, thank you, thanks for being here. And you know you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah, Hi, Okay, So I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization of marijuana and basically I mean all drug use, right or do you want to get specific about what drugs you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean,

let me be very specific. I mean most of my life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end the war on drugs, So that's where and I was never called myself pro marijuana, although my personal life, I'd say marijuana and I have had a great relationship for a very long time. Amen to that. But when it comes to the other drugs, you know, I'm sort of a Merril wine and psychedelic exceptionalist, and that those are the drugs that have been good in my life and

the other ones are not so crazy about. But the principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drugs they put in their body if they don't hurt anybody else, I think that's the core principle we have to remember. So that even if you love we love psychology, don't like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean that other people should get punished simply for using those things, right, absolutely, And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics.

I mean, you're into psychedelics, and so I assume that encompasses all of all psychedelics. Psilocybin, Well, you know, I haven't tried all of them yet, right, I mean, you know, mushrooms have been my kind of go to one for a very long time. Ayahuasca has been good. I've done mescaling once or twice. I've tried a few others. I did to ceb m Dama, not really a psychedelic, but that one was very nice in my life. Although it

doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes to the opioids, I mean no, I just think they're useful for pain and that one needs to be very careful when you're using them. But I do know people who use psyche, you know, who use opioids and have led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So I'm just it's always just very important that we not demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more dangerous, and even like cocaine. Like I've never really liked cocaine

that much. Mean for me, like having cocaine it's like drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip, right, So it's never been a thing for me. I have friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it. So I'm not a big fan. I don't think it brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much. But it still means I don't like the law of

punishing anybody for using that stuff. So when you said you used M D M A, but it stopped working for you. What do you mean by that, because I've heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you. I mean, you know, Chelsea, when I first started using early thirties, it was in the context of my divorce. I think

it helped us land up on a softer landing. And I've used it in romantic relationships since in my thirties and forties, and it was good with friends and I've been to raise But around I'm now sixty five, around the time I hit my early fifties, I found that the upside started waning and the downside started increasing, and I start having the feeling like my body was telling me, don't put this in you, And so I really miss it.

I mean it was. It served a valuable purpose for me in terms, especially in romantic relationships, in terms of being able to deal with issues and have communications and otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true. It is helpful in relationships if you can have conversations, important conversations. Right, Have you used it in that way? No, I haven't. I've only used it, and I mean that's a good idea though I've only used it to like have a good time, you know. M D. M a that is,

but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I mean, it's just because it gives people the ability both to listen it more deeply than they normally worried. It dissolves the defenses, and also to speak in a way that's more and pathic in a way. And so I think, you know, when it was first kind of when it's uses were first kind of rediscovered the seventies, it was known as the couple's therapy drug, and it was most famous for

that type of use. And now when we see it emerging for use with respect to PTSD and things like that, it really has a very valuable role to play. So I strongly encourage it as long as it work well for you. I should also say that I think when it comes to stopping, I know a lot more guys who says it doesn't work for me anymore. Whereas women seem to get this is no no research on this, just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value of it for a longer time. Interesting, And what about tell me

a little bit about mescaline. I've never had any experience with mescaline either, I don't think so well, you know, you can get it in the refined version, which is

the way I did it. That other two ways is it comes from the peyote cactus, which is the one that's used in Indigenous ceremonies, Native American church, and now people are mostly people are being discouraged from using payote because there's a limited supply and you don't want to deprive Native American church members and Indigenous peoples of having access to it. But there's a plant called San Pedro which is also a source of mescalin. So I would say that I did at the one time I did it,

I found that a lot like a mushroom experience. It can be maybe a little bit longer. It was before the invention of LSD in the forties or just you know, a creation of LSD in the forties, it was the most popular of the psychedelics. I just interviewed somebody on my podcast I Go Active. Mike j wrote a wonderful history of this whole thing. Michael Pollen, who has written that wonderful book changed and had to change your mind about psychedelics. He has a new book where he talks

about his mescaline news. So I would say it's worth trying. Some people may prefer it to LSD or two mushrooms. I don't think it's radically different though. Okay, so it's in that same family. And what about your experience, you said, Iowaska, have you done that multiple times? You know? I did it for the first time about twenty years ago. I had a great experience, and I did it a fe years later in the context of a religious ceremony something

the Brazilian church called Santo Dime. Although I did it, you know, loft in New York, but in that modality, and then since that time, I haven't really done the full blowing ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort of guide where they have low dose ayahuasca mixed in with other things. I've never gone down all South America to do it in the jungle. I saw you did that for the TV show you did on Netflix. I know a lot of people have done it that way, so it's not been a drug I've gone back to

many times. Although I would definitely do it again. I would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of the few people, like most people throw up when they do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up. I didn't throw up either. Oh no, I did throw up. Sorry I did. Yeah, I thought you were talking about the other outlet because they say you can sometimes, you know,

go to the backroom to with that. With respect to that second time I did it, nothing happened during the ceremony, but in following days that other outlet was quite active. Oh well, that's good to know. Thank you for filling me in. Yeah. Sure, do you find age at all to be a prohibitor? Are in any of these drugs we're talking about? You don't, I'll tell you. I think, first of as I say, as I've got an older m DNA is not really doing it for me. Marijuana

continues to be my friend after all these years. I think if you don't have issues, like, for example, I don't have any. You know, I'm very healthy for my age, so I don't worry about cardiovascular issues. If you feel vulnerable cardiovastro lee, you have to be careful with taking a drug that could really, you know, get your heart going in a serious way. I've never been on antidepressants, but if you are, you know you can't be an antidepressants and be doing ayahuasca because as I've got a

toxic combination. Like one thing I've gotten into in recent years is doing LSD. Not at the macro dose with the heroic dose, the big dose, and and not so much at the micro dose, the five or ten micrograms, but doing what I would call a mini dose of like twenty or thirty micrograms, which is enough to make you feel you're under the influence of something, but you're not really having any visions, You're not way out there. And I will say that the following day, I just

feel exhausted, and I think that maybe aging. But you know, there are people who just keep doing it into their eighties and older. I mean, my view on the psychedelics has always been there kind of wasted on the young, and I tend to think about them. I let's give it. Gave a speech and I said, you know, I think about doing psychedelics the way I think about ya keep poor.

You know, I'm Jewish, I grew up religious. Right now I'm not that religious, but you know, once a year, yon' kee poor fast twenty five hours, no food, no water, because I think it's a good thing for getting more in touch with that spiritual side. And I think the same thing with psychedelics that a lot of times people you know in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventy say, oh, I did that when I was young. But my view is it's a good thing to keep coming back to

at least once a year. It's a it's good for stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological sediment that builds up as we get older. And I think the reason that people get scared of it when they get older is because it does mean stirring up that emotional sediment. It does mean coming to grips with things, compromises you made in life, things you've had to settle for. But I actually think it's a healthy thing spiritually, emotionally, and probably even physically to keep doing it as long as

one feels physically able. Wow, well, that's great. I love to hear that because I always feel like you, in a certain point, you have to stop the drugs, and I think what you're saying is quite the opposite. As long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no reason to stop unless you know you have some health limitations. Exactly exactly, And I seem to try to overcome those fears that happen as we get over. So many of my friends who used to do it with me back

in the day, now they're worried about it. They're scared about it. Although the truth being that with all the same arable media about psychedelics now, with Michael Collin's book and all the other sorts of things, more and more people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't done it in many decades or never did it. And I think that's an encouraging sign, you know. I mean,

even with marijuana, if you think about it. I remember when we started legalizing marijuana, first for medical and then more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives, and people would say, you just you watch, adolescent use is gonna skyrocket. And my response to them would be, I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability in marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them, So

why is it going to go up so much? And I said, the real increase in use is going to be among people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties. And I'll tell you, you know, five ten years since we started legalizing marijuana or in states around the country, there's been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which

would be something you'd worry about. But meanwhile, among people, like you know, people in their sixties seventies, there's like a quadrupling of us because people are finding it valuable. They're finding it, you know, that they find they prefer to alcohol, They find it helps with sleep, or aches and pains, or or maybe it helps to spice up a sexual relationship with a person you've been married to for decades, right, I mean, it's got all these sorts

of benefits. And so I think the benefits of psychoactive drugs, and especially one it's like cannabis and psychedelics, I think they're underestimated in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging. Do you think that the dosage is important as you aged? I mean, because the micro dosing is really what everybody's on about now and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice, whether it's a micro dose of LSD or psilocybin or ketamine. Do you think that that has an impact. Well, it's

so hard to know. I mean with micro doc thing, some people have claimed it's little more than a placebo, and other people have claimed released significant benefit from MIKE and micro doocing usually means taken between a tenth to the twentie of the dose that would normally result in a psychedelic trip. And so I would say the microdocing

thing is worth trying. It does not appear to be much risk associated with it, although there's not long term studies on it, and that can evolve doing it with LSD, with mushrooms, it can even be done with ayahuasco or even what I've even heard about microdocing Iba game, which is a very powerful psychedelic out of West Africa from the aboga plant that you know, people have found great resulting during addiction. But I'm a little scared to try

with marijuana. Some people find that as they get older that the brain changes in a way and so that you need less to get high. So I think it's a matter of just being attentive to what works and and look hoo for people use it differently. I know people, I know people, billionaires, enormously successful people. Every night, you know, they'll take a couple of puffs off a joint, watch late night TV and go to sleep. And they've been

doing that for decades. I know brilliant academics and intellectuals who've been using marijuana, including for creative purposes. In my case, I don't do marijuana daily, you know. I smoke it periodically with friends or my partner or something like that. And and then edible I'm getting into. Edible is more frequently.

In fact, for me, part of my healthy aging process is once a week when I'm in New York, I take ten dollograms of edible THHC, usually in a nice chocolate bar, grab my headphones, and I go down and get a multi hour massage, and I'm just floating and

Mari Wanta helps me get into my body. So I think it's actually, when you're using any psychoactive drugs, the key thing is to be using it consciously, not to be using it unconsciously, and not to just be using it habitually, and not to be using it just in his escapest way is to use it consciously, to say, this is a moment or a thing I'm doing where I think, actually using this substance when hands what I'm

intending to do or wanting to do right now. The circling back real quick to your m d m A experience with your ex wife, you said that that helps with issues in your marriage to have conversations while taking that.

I have heard that before, but not really the way that you said it, because the dosage would have an impact on your being able to actually have a conversation like that in a serious nature, right, rather than just not not really chose because you know, with m d m A is pretty standard that people will do between a hundred and a hundred fifty grants, and so when you're doing m d m A, you know, nobody's hallucinating.

It's not a psychedelic experience. They call the drug used to be called it in pathoging because it helps to open up your heart. In fact, at some point the nickname was originally gonna be like something like empathy. But people realize, you know, who wants to market a druggle empathy.

There's not a big market for empathy. Let's call it ecstasy, and so ecstasy became the nickname for m d m A. But I think the key thing is that when the drug comes on and it's two people and you're in a relationship, the ability to process stuff, to process things that have been bugging one or the other to talk about them in a respectful way, an empathic way. It basically causes defenses to melt in a way. And I think that's it's great with with with my ex wife.

You know, we were in a very difficult spot, but we did it together and we're able to talk and we actually thought for a while, as did our marriage counselor, that oh my god, our marriage is gonna be saved here. And in the end, you know, it wasn't enough. But I do think we landed up with a safer landing and became and wonderful co parents and friends thereafter, and

subsequent relationships, you know, it was. It's always been valuable in terms of dealing with the stuff that builds begins to build up in a relationship, that that needs to get processed, that needs to get talked about. So I think just being there quiet place, have that conversation, and while you're in the conversation, remembering that it's not the kind of drug you can keep using over and over

and over and over over again. If the idea is to as you're doing it and as you're having this heartfelt, honest understanding and pathet conversation to be thinking about ways in which you can get back to that spot the next day and the next week and the next month without having to use the drug repeatedly. Right, it's good to come back and use it occasionally. I'm talking about using it three, four or five times a year, not using it weekly and never mind daily or something like that.

And it kind of depletes you right of your serotonin. If you think about you know, prozac, they both act on the serotonin level. That essentially, prozac is a mattress and M D m A is a trampoline, And so oftentimes the next day people can feel a bit depleted, although I'll tell you the first time I did it, I felt great the next day. Yeah. I always feel it the next day in my system in a good way, not a bad way, in a good way. Yeah. So

that's that's great. That's great. I think if I have found this is just once again anecdotal, when I would do with friends and the next day we all jump on the plane's to go back home, I noticed that a surprising number as we get a cold and we get thick in the following days. So I think it's it's good to understand that your system just to maybe somewhat compromised the following day and just take it easy. And like oft time telling that people don't do it

on a Sunday, do it on a Saturday. Make sure you have a day to take off between the day you take it and the day you're back and work, because what I find is that it melts your defenses, and the defenses don't just jump right back up to so to throw yourself right back into work the next day when your defense is they're still kind of down, you know, and ships flying at you in the work environment, you're not quite ready to deal with it. You need that recovery time that at least a day of recovery

time after you do it. Yeah, and also it's good to take BE twelve before doing it and after doing it to help with that kind of they call it like suicide Tuesday. It's not suicide, right, suicide I don't know. It's usually two days after you take it that some people can have like a depressive episode. Right. This doesn't happen to everybody, but people can. It can happen. So it's always good to take B twelve. Okay, Well, Ethan, we're excited you're here today. We have a show where

we have people call in for advice. So you're going to be our guest and Katherine's going to give us the low down. But first we're going to take a break, right Catherine. Yeah, We're gonna take a quick break for an ad and we'll be right back with some colors. Okay, and we're back. Fantastic. Well, we have really just all drug questions today. What a nice what a nice episode this is going to be. It feels so warm and fuzzy. Yes, I mean, I do have to I do have to

preface this with I am a baby drug user. I have not really tried a whole lot of things. Haven't tried mushrooms, that sort of thing. Have minimally tried marijuana. Just wait till you come to my orca, Katherine. Don't worry, just wait. You have so much to look forward. And with N d n A, I'm oftentimes most envious. I call them the N d n A virgins because if you've never done it before, the first time is often

times the best ever. So I'm kind of excited. I do have to say I won the second place prize in the Dare Essay writing competition in fifth grade, but second place was better than first place because she got like a tour of the police department and I got a pizza party. So yeah, seriously, hello, prizes are in the wrong order for that contest, exactly exactly. So our first question comes from Jamie. She says, Chelsea, you were talking think about CBD today when I was listening to

Glennon's episode. I've tried many CBD products and I don't ever feel any effect. Can you recommend a specific amount or brand so I can feel the effects. I try to pop Brownie ones and it threw me into a terrible panic attack. I don't want to feel bad again. I just want to feel calm and sleep. Thanks Jamie, Well, CBD, if you're not feeling anything, I would say not to be opposed to adding a little th HC ratio to it. I mean, if you're taking c I don't really feel

CBD when I take that by itself either. I'd usually take that for when I'm skiing for pain management for my knee, but I would say to throw in a little th HC, like you don't you know? It could be like two point five milligrams of t HC against a higher percentage or higher ratio of cb D for a little bit more of a buzz to help you so you can actually feel it without overdoing it. Ethan, what are your thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I really

don't know. I mean, I do do CBD. All the stuff about the rub bombs and this and that, and it drops. There's not a lot of evidence out there about how using it in that form is actually helpful, and it's usually not psychoactive. There are studies that show that CBD has been helpful in some very serious medical conditions, but a lot of it's been hype. It's hard to say. Now. There is a website out there called Project CBD, a guy named Martin Lee, who I think is one of

the most honorable you know. I don't think he's taken money from anyone company to promote one or the other. So I keep your eye on that Project CBD website and they may provide some guidance about what are the more reliable or less reliable both brands and ways of taking it or not taking it. The idea that Chelsea said about combining it with THHD and small amounts, I mean, you know, the plant produces the marijuana plant produces both th HC and CBD, and so that's why you see

a lot of the edibles. Sometimes we'll have a th HC CBD combination. I think it's generally a good idea to use th HC with some CBD. Sometimes people have issues of marijuana and anxiety may find that if you're using th HC with no CBD in it, and may exacerbate the anxiety because CBD is supposed to be an anti anxiety drug. So I'd say, no fantastic information out there, but you can dig around and try to use the

drugs in combination. And what's the name of that website again, I think it's called Project CBD or just google Martin Lee CBD, which is what I just did. Yeah, you know, I like the idea of combining it. There was a time when I was using a lot of CBD. I

also didn't really feel anything. But Brad, my husband, and I went to the beach and I had been using like a CBD vape pretty heavily that day, and we decided like, okay, we're gonna like take a couple of hits of this very strong joint that we got as a as a wedding favor at my brother Ethan's wedding and we both took one hit and we're just I mean, it was beyond It was way too much. It was super super strong. And usually when I have too much marijuana,

I get very like unhappy, panicky. It activates all that stuff for me. But since i'd had so much CBD, I was very calm, even though I was like, I'm way more stone than I want to meet. But it really helps from that perspective of like, just gave me a chill time. Hm, that makes sense. You know a lot of times a lot of people have issues with anxiety and marijuana. I think a lot of them I find that the first time they did marijuana, they did it in a social environment, oftentimes with people they were

not necessarily that comfortable with. And so I think the best way to deal with that is when you're using marijuana, either to overcome that fear of anxiety or using it for the first time, try to do in a place where you're either if either by yourself or with your lover or close friends, where you're really comfortable, where there's nobody you have to be on with nobody you have issues with and if possible, do it not in like the same place, like the TV room or whatever, but

trying to find a nice place outside, you know, whether it's the woods or a lake or something that's not your normal you know, sitting environment. Just alter it a bit. Well. Our next question comes from Michelle. Michelle says, Dear Chelsea, I'm going on a camping trip this month with my husband and two other couples. We all plan on doing mushrooms together. The other couples do this yearly and are inviting us for the first time. I don't have much experience with drugs. I smoked weed a bit in my

early twenties, and I've done coke once. I'm a little nervous of the possibility of a quote bad trip. I feel extremely safe with my friends, and I know they'll guide me through the experience. I'm mostly nervous about my husband. He's very experienced with drugs, although he has never done mushrooms. But my main worry is his reaction if I do have a bad trip. He would prefer me not to partake, and I'm scared that my fear of his reaction could

make me have a negative experience. What's your advice to have an enjoyable experience for my first time Michelle. Hi, Michelle, I think first off, you have to stop telling yourself you're not going to have a good experience, because that's like a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to go into drugs always like you're using the drug. The drug is not using you. That's how I feel about any time I take drugs. Anytime I'm not in control of the situation is when I'm not in control of the situation.

So I would just say to do you know, if you're worried about your experience, just do half of what everybody's doing, and you're gonna have a good time. Mushrooms make you laugh, they make you relax. They you will be probably laughing the hardest you've ever laughed in your life. That's usually what happens to people the first time they do mushrooms. Ethan, what has you've been your experience with

people who have bad trips on mushrooms. I mean, so, I think your advice to Michelle is right on the Other thing I would tend to say is that Michelle and her husband should have a conversation beforehand and maybe with their friends there just think. Listen. I want you to know, dear husband, that if I need some help during this, I'm not expecting you to be there. Please don't worry about me, and have one of the friends

saying we're in charge here. Say to the husband, you can relax if you're having your own good trip, bad trip. Don't feel an obligation. You want to be together, be together, but don't get into a mode of needing this for one of the other. And we the friends are here to help in that and thereby take the pressure. So, for example, it does You're right, it's highly unlikely to go in the wrong direction. But if it does, that the husband's not gonna feel guilty for not being president.

Is having the friends there the host, they're saying, we got this. You relax. When she's a little better, you guys can be together. Something along those lines. Yeah. And just for the record, I know this is I mean, I don't speak for the entire universe, even though i'd like to. I would like to say that I've never been around anybody who had a bad trip on mushrooms. And I do them all the time. I've done them

dozens of times. I did have two trips that I would regard as that we went into a very dark place, um where I just began to feel enormously depressed. And I used two different approaches to deal with it the first time, and it felt a little bit light cheating was that when into when it went into a very dark place, I had some M D M A around, you know, ecstasy, and I just took a little M D M A and that just lifted it up into

a beautiful place. Again. It's one reason why sometimes people can buy and mushrooms in M D M A, because it both enhances the possibility will go into a beautiful spot and it minimizes the chance of going into a dark spot. Now the other way to do it and the real possibility that it goes into a dark place. And this I remember I was doing it with my partner. We'ant a beat and it went into a very dark place. Everything felt black and dark and crumbling and dying and

all this sort of stuff. And you can't The thing is, you cannot run away from a bad trip. You can't run away from it. And so what I did was I almost envisioned that darkness of the bad trip is like a huge wave and you know, when you swing in the ocean and then you see also a big wave coming, you can't run from it, because then you'll get you know, crash on you, you'll tumbling, you might hurt yourself. The only choice when a big wave is coming is to dive into it, dive underneath it, dive

through it. And so I practically, like musically, almost dived into the sand. But like you know, I mean, you know, literally in a way or you know, a metaphorically, the way was into the way of the darkness, and I kind of came out of it. I came out of it, and all of the things just lifted and it became this magnificent trip for the rest of it. So I would say, you're right to tell her, don't worry about the bad one. It's highly unlikely. You have friends around

who can take care of you. Don't worry about your husband's reaction. If it does go in a dark place, there are ways to deal with it. And whatever case, even if it is dark, you're gonna get better in a few hours and you'll be fine the next day.

And many times people say they find that even going into a dark place on mushrooms are ayahuasca they may go through a terrifying place, especially with ayahuasca, and then the next day they said, my god, that was the most magnificent experience in my life because of how much

I've learned, how much I've benefited. Yeah, so I would just say to lower the dosage compared to what your friends are taking, you know, just for you in beginning, Just take half so that you're not going to be, you know, out of control, and then if you like it, you can take more. Yes. Great, Well, we have our first caller of the day today. This is Annie. Annie says, dear Chelsea. I was diagnosed with complex PTSD about fifteen years ago, but I've struggled with it for over twenty years.

I've tried many different forms of therapies, medications, and THHC, which have helped some but never completely. My symptoms have become much worse during the last few years, with running from fires in California, COVID, and just the general ship show that is our world. I'm now struggling to leave the house, and I've been isolating myself to an extreme. I'm pretty sure I'm bordering on agoraphobia. Even my work

zooms have become a source of anxiety. I'm planning to email my doctor to talk to him about some beta blockers to help with the short term issues. I heard you talk about this on your show the other day, and I have never tried them before. My question to you is, I'm considering some alternative treatments, including micro dosing, psilocybin, m D m A, or therapeutic ketamine. I've read that in some instances they are curing PTSD with these treatments,

which I had been told would never be possible. I'd rather try psilocybin, but that seems less legal at the moment and harder to come by. I feel lost in trying to figure out who to talk to about this. My doctor is pretty judgmental, and I would never bring this up to him. Do you have any advice on resources to learn more about these types of treatments. I've obviously googled it, but I'm not sure who to trust. I can't be the only one whose symptoms have become

much worse during this COVID apocalypse time. Thank you both for doing what you do. Your show has been a great source of comfort and much needed laughter. Annie. Hi, Annie, Hi, Annie h that's Ethan he's our guest today. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. Annie. Oh thank you, But just know that this is temporary. You're not going to feel like this forever, and you're not alone. So many people feel like this after COVID and have anxiety,

and you know there are ways to fix it. But Ethan, do you want to start with some resources, because you're probably the man for that. Just a few things. I mean, first of all, I think when it comes to microdo is saying with mushrooms or something like that, if you can get a hold of them, even just you know, not even pure philocide mushrooms, there's relatively little risk with doing that at a very very low level. I mean, maybe it helps, maybe not, if there's not much evidence

on it. I think the place I'd start is with ketamine, because ketamine is legal, and I think the first place I probably the godfather of ketamine assisted psychotherapy as a fellow named Phil Wilson up in Marin County in California, and he's got a whole bunch of websites, So just Google and Phil Wilson and kennamine. One of his top

proteges is a doctor in the New York area. Gita bade I actually interviewed her on my podcast Psychoactive not long ago, and she speaks about the art of doing psychotherapy assisted by ketamine, and because that's legal, it's going to be easier to access the challenges to find the best therapists, and I think starting up with Phil Wilson

is a way to go. Now, m d m A is probably going to get approved by the Food and Drug Administration the FDA sometime later this year next year for treatment of Pete s D. So there are already research programs they're emitting patients. So if you just google PTSD, m d m A Psychedelic Therapists something like that, you'll

probably see people popping up. The organization maps, which is the Multi Disapline Associated Psychologic Studies, has been the one driving this process for with the FDA, and they're training people all around the country to be therapists. So that's probably the other place I would look. And once you start nosing around, then people will start to recommend to you therapists who are using m d m A assisted psychotherapy, not fully legally yet, but where it's becoming more and

more common. Okay, thank you, do you know have you heard of maps, Annie, I have heard of MAPS. I've done some reading about it. I just yeah, it doesn't seem like it was widely available yet. So well, they basically have research programs now, so sometimes if you can still get into one of those. But once you start calling around, people will let you know about psychotherapists who are provide being this sort of help, either using psilocybin or m D M A, but starting off with ketamine

simply because it's legal. Just finding the right therapist I think really is the way to go. Okay, perfect, thank you. And what state are you in, Annie, I'm in California. Oh okay, Well that's easy to find in California guided kenemine trips. I have a few friends that are doing that. Oh okay, I didn't know that that was really a thing here. I've seen it like in southern California, but I'm in northern California. Phill Wilson is right up in

Marin and he's the godfather of kenemine. So definitely check out his website and see what you can find out there. Okay, great, thank you, Yeah, and you know, try and in the meantime, Beta blockers. If you get those prescription, that's a short term solution, but it also does kind of the neuropathways. It changes those. In my experience, I've taken beta blockers and you don't have to take them all the time. You take them and it kind of sets up a new pattern of thoughts so that you don't get that

nervous energy. I do look at it as a short term solution. I think that the ketamine and everything else is a deeper, more spiritual solut san to you know, the anxiety and the discomfort you're feeling. Yeah, there's also a brilliant doctor writer think her name Julie Holland, who talks a lot about this stuff. So just google Julie Holland and I think you'll come across some interesting information as well. Thank you. Okay, Annie, take care. Let let us know how it go. Yeah, let us know how

it goes. Okay, Well, thank you so much. Sure, all right, Well, our next question comes from Katie. Katie asks, dear Chelsea on the show, I heard you talking about micro dosing chocolate mushrooms. I'm an elementary school special ed teacher, and my weed and zan X intake increased substantially over the pandemic. I talked to her a little bit about it, and her zanex increase was really linked to a really high

stress job that she had. I'm looking to take a break from the weed, but I know I'll be very unpleasant. I'm curious about the chocolate fung guy and where it can find them safely. Thanks Katie, and she's actually here with us on the phone as well. Hi Katie, Hi there. Yeah, I think mushrooms are a great pivot for you. Are

mushrooms legal? What? What states legally sell mushrooms? Ethan? No, there's no place where its legal, although if you figure out a way to grow it, there's all these sort of guys to growing you at home, and so large numbers of people are doing that now. I'll also tell you I don't know where you are, but like here in New York City where they have all these marijuanna delivery services that are still illegal, but nobody's going after

them anymore. More and more of them are selling chocolate mushrooms. I mean, I've now seen these menus which used to just be different types of marijuana edible and smokable, and now they're including you know, mushrooms in little powders and mushrooms and chocolate. So you know, if you if you know, where do you live. I live in New England and I use a delivery one of those you know, same type of things, so I'll have to check that out.

I haven't even bothered to look at their edibles. M hmm. Yeah. Just ask your delivery service if they happen to vide mushrooms and if they don't, if they know somebody who does. Because I'm amazed and how much this it is taken off in the marijuana delivery world, that you're carrying these

things as well. Yeah, that's been my biggest issue is being you know, old enough to know that online is not where it's at to be trusted necessarily, and then not being young enough to really know anybody that's still growing or got stuff like that around, And so I was kind of stuck. And my doctor was more concerned with the xan x used leading to Alzheimer's more than anything else, which kind of scared me. And then that was kind of like, Okay, I really like to back

off of that and not need it so much. So if I had a different option other than the weed that would be great because at this point I just smoke all the time. What about with weed? I mean, because the Zannex is the one from a health perspective, it has a lot more risks, and weed has relatively fewer risks. And it might be a matter of changing the way you're consuming weed or the you know, maybe shifting to a drink couple of self with low THHC content in it, and those can be kind of nice.

I don't already tried that. Yeah, my issue is that I my consumption is just off the charts, and like I'd make my own tincture that's a hundred twenty milligrams per melo leader and make my own gummies and sometimes feel them. Chelsea talked about chocolate mushrooms as as an alternative, and I was really curious about it. Yeah, I think what Ethan said is pretty accurate. Though, Like anyone who's delivering weed is also delivering mushrooms because they're everywhere. Everywhere

I go, somebody hands me mushrooms. I wish I could hand them to you right now. I want to go to there. But yeah, but yeah, you you should investigate and if it's not that we delivery service, that you're using, look for some other ones, because I guarantee you'll find them there. You know. Just don't overdo it when you're trying mushrooms for the first time. Again, make sure you're just doing like a half a dose to see how

what your reaction is. And then once you're comfortable with it, you know how to tightrate or increase or whatever you're after, which is relief. Yeah, I was gonna say, what is it? How would you describe that feeling well with mushrooms? I find that I just have a lot of clarity and I feel up. If I take chocolate mushrooms, Like with my girlfriends, I'll take more to laugh, you know, and just be silly, but mostly I take them, you know.

I took one yesterday. My friend had some mushroom morning mushrooms, and it had like all these other ingredients in it that we're just like wake up natural ingredients and and herbs and stuff like that. So and that stuff is just so minimal. You just feel a little bit more clarity and just a little sharper, you know, on it, and upbeat and ready to go, kind of like a cup of coffee without it. I was just gonna say, my TikTok algorithm locked on into sending me mudwater. Is

that something similar to what you're talking about? Yeah, the mudwater is. I love it. I think it's very tasty, but it's a little bit more of like a coffee substitute rather than Yeah, it's like adapt to gen mushrooms for health and and that sort of thing. But it's tasty, it tastes like ty t you know, but not gonna get you high. No. So here's one more question too. Would you both suggest that she sort of tapered down the marijuana use before trying the mushrooms or use them

in conjunction with each other. Well, what's the negative effect of the marijuana use now? For you? I mean my bank account? Um, but I have a home garden with all a bunch of tomato plants and then one one lovely little sativa. So I'm, you know, trying that way. But other than the fact that I'm spending a lot of money and don't really get high anymore unless it's you know, what people would consider way overdoing it, Like I went through like a half an ounce in the

last week. Yeah, so your tolerance is pretty high. Yeah, because some people use marijuana as heavily as you do, it's because you're getting some medical benefit from it. I mean it may be serving this anti anxiety purpose definitely is trying to pull back on the zanys and maybe figuring out a more cost effective way, the most cost effective way to be consuming the marijuana. And I think if you're gonna do the mushrooms, I don't know that you need to cut back on the marijuana. You know,

it's there are different substances. They operate differently on your brain. And if you're doing is Chelsea you suggest doing with a little micro dose thing or smaller dose try it. I mean, look, for me, the advantage of not using cannabis every day is that when I get high, I

really enjoy getting high. Yeah, I miss that. I think I'd more look at it through that lens to see if you, in fact you can taper off on cannabis or have some you know, a cannabis free day or like each week or something like that, and just see what that feels like. And then you can decide whether you want to try something like a low dose mushroom, either on your off marijuana day or even on the days you're doing marijuana. Okay, I'm definitely curious. I might

now that I know it's it's in New York. I'm I'm ahead of there in a couple of days, so I should tell you New York they haven't actually opened up the doors for legal sale until the beginning of the year, so so it would still be a deliver Your service will be delivery. Some places are opening up anyway and sort of daring the cops to addrest them so you can find them. Yeah, I mean, they've got better things to do at this point, really exactly. Yeah,

but you can easily find a delivery service. I mean, that's what everybody in New York City does, you know, if you get it delivered, So whoever you're staying with, you could figure that out easily. Awesome. That's so great to know. Well, I really appreciate your your advice, and you know, it was cool to get to chat and something that I wouldn't normally get to have a conversation with on like an educated level. So that's pretty cool.

I appreciate it. Awesome, Awesome, Good luck to you. Keep us posting alright, alright, by well, our next question really fits well into what we just talked about with Katie Carrie wrote in She Says, Dear Chelsea. I've been dating my boyfriend for four years now. We're in our late twenties. He's always very openly loved smoking weed. I don't personally partake very often because it makes my anxiety worse, but lots of my friends and family do, so I'm very

familiar with being around it. In the early years of our relationship, I saw no problem with his smoking because we were young. It seemed less destructive than drinking, and I didn't feel it was my place to judge. However, he's almost thirty now and he smokes every single day. He'll smoke right when he gets home from work, and again multiple times throughout the night until we go to bed. On the weekends, he smokes almost immediately after waking up.

Often he can't even eat without it because he's used to relying on it to induce hunger. To his credit, his personality isn't altered much when he smokes. He doesn't get quiet or sleepy as I know some people do. I still enjoy being around him, even though he sometimes does have a bad memory because of it. My question is, how do you know when smoking we becomes a problem. We're approaching the age where we make more serious commitments like marriage and kids, and this feels like the elephant

in the room. I've spoken to him multiple times about this, but rather than having a conversation, he shuts down my concerns as me having an outdated and biased view of marijuana. In his opinion, there are no bad side effects, it's more widely becoming legal, and there's really no reason to stop or slow down. Since you openly enjoy weed more than I do, it might be interesting to have a perspective on when and if marijuana use can go too far.

Carry ethan, why don't you hit that out of the park. Okay? What I would just say to her is basically, if he's not really seeing any problems with his youth, And then she said maybe his memory isn't as good because he's smoking weed. But I think the bottom line is basically, don't worry about it. Getting older is not an issue. He's getting defensive in the relationship with you is not going to be productive. He's already indicated he can hear

criticism of that side of his life. Is quite possible that he's using this in a way that's more medical than anything else, since he's probably really not getting very high anymore. He's just using it on a very regular basis. So I can understand feeling a little irritated by the fact that that thing is always in life and it's not something you share much, and maybe even feeling a little jealous of it in some respect. But unless you can pinpoint problems with it, I would just leave it alone.

And it's quite possible that the day will come and the moment will come when he comes to the conclusion that maybe he wants to stop doing it. But if he's got his backup, because you're getting more and more critical about it, I don't think that's going to go anywhere. Good. Yeah, I would say the exact same thing. There's no reason, you know, it is kind of an outdated stance on it. I mean, it is becoming legal everywhere he likes using it,

And again what Ethan said is perfectly accurate. At this point, he's probably not getting that much benefit from it, unless it is a health benefit, because he's certainly probably not getting high at this point. I know when I over consume marijuana, it takes so much to make me high, So yeah, you gotta kind of just like get rid of that way of thinking and you know, just be happy. It's not something like drinking or another drug. That would be a situation if somebody came home and they relied

on that. You know, marijuana pretty benign and it's helpful to a lot of people. So you don't know what kind of anxiety he might have or what other body aches he might have that this is helping him with that. He might not even be aware of himself. It might just be to for him to equalize. So I would just try and say, be a little bit more open hearted and open minded. Let him do his thing, and

then you do your thing. Yeah, and there's that old thing of when do you know something is addictive or becoming a problem, and it's when you have negative consequences. It sounds like he's not really having negative consequences. You know. We've had people call into the show and and say, you know, I really want to taper down my marijuana use or or that sort of thing. So I feel like if someone thinks that they do, then like, go for it. Definitely, your body is telling you something, your

mind is telling you something. But it sounds like he's not having any any negative consequences other than this relationship issue. Yeah, I liked what you said that. My definition of addiction

is addiction equals dependence plus problems. So if you're dependent on a drug, whether it's off you to get up in the morning, whether it's a statin for your cholesterol or a heart drug, whether it's method on because you were once addicted to heroin, it's not an addiction so long as that dependence on the drug is not a problem. And it sounds quite likely that with this guy, it sounds like it's basically a dependence, a serious dependence, but

not really causing any problems. In fact, it sounds like the biggest problem is it could become a problem in his marriage, even if it's not causing him any problems in his own personal life. Apart from that. Well, on that note, we will take our break and we'll be right back with Ethan Nadelman and Chelsea. We're back, fantastic. Well, Ethan, did you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Wow, Chelsea,

you know I was thinking about that. The first piece of advice, and if you is not specifically about drugs. You have this very successful podcast, and I have my podcast like a active which I'm trying to turn into a much bigger thing. So if you've got any advice about how to get a building audience for a podcast that talks about the whole spectrum of drugs and drug wars and drug policies and drug use, I'm all ears for advice about doing something like that. Well, I mean,

you should book a couple of celebrity guests. I'll volunteer to come on and talk to you about drugs. That will help the first thing, Yeah, to make it a little shiny. But I've what I've learned about podcasts. How long have you had your podcast? I'm in the second season now, so we started just over a year ago. Yeah. What I've learned is that it takes a couple of years for anybody, whether you're a famous person or less famous or whatever your platform is, that it takes a

few years to really build and grow. But when you have a subject matter that's so many people are interested right now and it's such a part of our zeitgeist. I mean, I have no I mean, you've got a great title, and you're very knowledgeable obviously, so I would imagine that people are very interested in hearing more of what you have to say. So I know that certainly our listeners have plenty of them, will be interested in that too. So I would just say, yeah, just keep

doing it. That's how you accrue more listeners, you know, you just it happens slowly over time. Okay, great, Well I have one other question for you, which is, you know, when I used to be a professor and I wrote books, academic books and a lot of writing. But in the last and twenty years, I've been writing less and less, and now I want to write a book about my life and about drugs, and I'm kind of blocked. And I see that you've had like five or six best

sellers and a lot of them about your life. So how did you actually get those books done and out with a lot of cannabis? Quite frankly, that's really that that that is the best use of cannabis that I've ever had. When I have a task at hand, a creative task, and I do all the work, but when I have to go in and polish and deliver is when I use cannabis and or mushrooms. Mushrooms also micro docing mushrooms helps me focus. But yeah, because you get

organized and then you get hyper focused. Cannabis helps me lose myself in something, but I have to have the subject there, you know what I mean. Like if I go work out, I can lose myself and working out. If I'm writing, I can lose myself and writing. If I'm sitting on my bed, I'm gonna lose myself on my phone. But you just I like to choose the activity that I'm going to lose myself in. But I would definitely say cannabis has been a huge contributor to

my the success of my books. Wow. Wow, Well, I'll tell you I keep meaning to start kind of microdocing mushroom routine, but I keep forgetting to do it. So it maybe that that maybe the answer for me, because sometimes I found with cannabis like I find a hard time writing with it because I sort of forget, like I lose my train of thought, you know, I forget what it was I wrote just it was just thinking

a few minutes ago. It's one reason I don't like giving a speech or doing interview under the influence of cannabis, because it's problematic in that way, whereas mushrooms can be more focusing so I maybe have to make more of a serious effort there. Yeah, just put it together as your responsibility to get your book done right. You're right, and you need to start your mushroom routine. Sounds good. Sounds good, Ethan, thank you so much for being on

the podcast today. I loved everything you had to say. Well,

I look, I love doing it. It was great to team up with you on answering those questions, Chelsea, and I really admire so all the ways that you've been out there on the drug issue and on so many others or politics aligned very much and I appreciate both your courage and sort of really speaking, I saw you were speaking out about this drug stuff before marijuana was legal, and you were speaking about psychedelics and doing episodes about it on Netflix and all those where when this was

not quite so cool and hips, so you were one of the pioneers and getting this out and I really do appreciate that. Thank you, Thanks, Sad, Thanks Okay, bye bye bye. So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us an email at Dear Chelsea project at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is a production of I Heart Radio Executive produced by Nick Stuff produced by Catherine Law and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.