You're listening to a new segment of Dear Chelsea. Call it Couple's Counseling with Chelsea, where we do couples counseling on all sorts of variations of friends, lovers, families. I'm here with my friends Jenny Mullen and Jason Biggs, and we are going to do some couples counseling. Welcome to my office. Okay, we're back this week with Jenny Mullen and Jason Biggs. I would love for you guys, this
is week three, okay of our therapy session. I would like you to regale us with the story about when you guys went scuba diving and you thought Jason was getting murdered under underwater.
Okay.
So we were getting our advanced certification or open water Advanced Diving certification, and we were in Maui and I noticed the instructor. We were on a dive, a beach dive, and I noticed the instructor getting like dangerously like close to Jason, like almost like a crawling on his back, and he starts to like screw something. I am convinced that this guy is turning off Jason's air.
So why wouldn't you think he was helping him.
Looked sus It really did not.
Look normal, okay, and the guy already was like shady to me. So like I already had questions about him going in. And when I saw him mount.
Jason, was it a mount or did it become a mount over time?
It was like a full mount onto Jason's It's.
Not unusual for your scuba guide or diamaster to be adjusting things on your tank.
This was like a full mount.
And I, I don't know, I just like survival instinct kicked in and I instead of like going towards Jason, my survival instinct kicked in. Instead of going towards Jason and like really sussing out the situation or kind of checking out like what exactly was being pulled on, I.
Did a U turn in the water and as fast as I.
Could to shore because you thought you were murder victim number two and that after he kills Jason, it was me.
I mean I've seen that dateline where the couple goes to Hawaii.
And like you know, on the instructor comes back.
And so instead of helping your husband, were you guys married at the time or just you were married. Yeah, because you guys got married pretty quickly. Yes, right? How many months were you dating? Nine months?
And then yeah?
And then I swam back to shore and Jason was like, where are you going?
Surfaced? He was like, where were you going? And I said, well.
It's just swimming through my life.
I thought he was killing you.
I thought that you were done.
At which point it dawned on me. If you thought that, why didn't you come and help me? We would I have done?
To be honest, if let's just say the guy was murdering Jason, what would I have really?
What was the timeframe that you saw this and that you were out of the water.
I turned pretty quick. A minute he mounted Jason, I was like, full breaststroke. Michael Phelps sing it back to.
And what was your reaction Jason when you got back? Because I know you also when scuba diving, you're more in charge. Like you You're very organized. It's a lot like you're packing right, You're he's helping everyone, You.
Like adjusting my goggles. I'm like, I'm fine, get off, let me go it this way.
I would say nine out of ten people who scuba dive with me want me to be their dive buddy one out of ten is Jenny.
Yeah, like, get off of me, let me live my life.
Do you guys ever scuba dive holding hands like like.
I did with the dive we have we're very competitive.
So it's like if you know, we hold hands, but like I need to be like on the deeper side.
You're very competitive with him?
Are we have more air left at the We like to look, we like to look, but he always sucks.
It's not even a competition for me anymore.
It's more by the way when we say we're competitive, it's more it goes this way.
He always says that. But our couples therapist thinks you're just as competitive, does she?
Yes, I'm going to actually counsel with her after this. How do you see that he's competitive.
With you in a parenting way? For sure?
Okay, but in scuba, in scuba, in tennis, and it's just he's a bit of a know it all.
So, for instance, I'll give you a great example the other day.
But if I'm better at certain things, that doesn't mean I'm competitive. It just means I'm better at them. He likes, he likes out. She's like, it's interesting that you're choosing tennis or things.
That, like I was talking about sports, but now I'll do another one parenting, or he likes to point out when I've like not.
Done something correct. So for instance, I think we were in LA and I.
Ordered something on Postmates, and you know, you get that notification on your phone that says, like your order whatever you think it's a your order's been delivered. So a notification comes up. I don't see it. It's not like scrolling at the top, and the phone's kind of locked. The next morning, I go downstairs, I'm like, oh, I saw the I have an order down here. Something came up on my phone and the guy's like, no, nothing was delivered.
So I was like, that's so weird. I got a notification for Postpace.
I look and it said, actually, your order's been canceled, so it's not there. So we get into the elevator and Jason's like, so, I guess you never got a notification saying that it was delivered.
It's like, why the fuck did you have to say that to me?
Now when we're alone, like a little bit of like a finger wag in my face.
There's a lot of that, And that was in the middle of a fight already.
Actually it was it because I said, baby, you don't say that, and you're like, Okay, you're sorry.
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that.
But you can't help yourself, is what I'm saying. You have this like but I don't know the ability like hetitive.
It's this idea that like, you need to be like the good kid, you need to be the one who's always right there. It's there is a there's an element of that that is like.
But you have a very competitive nature with your husband. That's not doesn't apply to every couple. I mean, do you meet any other couples with your same dynamic.
No, but I.
Don't know that I was.
I think it's something about the two of us because we both want to be right. We both want to be the good kid, we both want to be the best parent, we both want to get it right, we want to be the a student.
And I don't know.
That like I was ever with somebody that had that same trait. So this really brings that out, you know, because we're both trying so hard. It's why I think we'll always be married, because we both want to get it right and we're committed to getting it right.
I like that. That's nice for couples to hear.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
I agree, there is that when it comes to life stuff, parenting, et cetera.
You're you're right, Jenny.
I will say, though, on the professional front, it's different because I came into the relationship having already had achieved a certain level of success that you hadn't yet achieved. And you came into the relationship with a family of origin situation, meaning your dad being this larger than life guy that you were and still are competitive with, So
it tracks more on that. No, really, I'm not saying that in like a negative This is stuff she talks about as well, Like I don't come with that, say, like, when it comes to work stuff, I don't have the need to get the validation or to sort of show or like like I don't present it in the same way that Jenny presents it or in my opinion, needs.
It to land in the same way.
Like I think there is a resentment that Jenny has towards me simply because we've talked about this, simply because of the position that I had coming into the relationship, you know, and it's not a coincidence. I think that she found somebody who you know, she r.
No, you're psychoanalyzing me, which wasn't really even we're.
Talking about the competitive nature of.
Or going to the easy place of it.
Okay, well, I think it's well where.
Would you prefer?
Though?
Where would you prefer?
He went, Well, I think that there's also an element of like it's like his mom's learning Italian, and I think that it bothers him.
There's something that triggers him about like he.
Thinks whenever anyone wants to like show off or do something in a certain way.
He has a need to like put you in your place a little. Yeah, you feel it's historical.
I don't think it's necessarily about me, but I do think that it plays out with me.
So I do think that when he sees.
Me being.
Competitive or activated by something, it triggers a family of origin issue for him that really isn't Oftentimes, I think that our stuff gets enmeshed in a way that really isn't about the other person, and that's true of all couples. I think that when you're smart, when you're fighting, it's like you're in your shit and they're in their shit and it just looks it looks the same, but it's not.
That's not actually, you know, I'm not his mom, he's not my dad.
What do you think about that, Jason.
She's right that obviously I have a reaction to that. That was the part I hadn't gotten to, Like, I think there is one of us brings something to the table. In this case, Jenny brings her competitiveness with her dad. But it does bring up a reaction to me that probably has nothing to do with Jenny. She's right, you know, and vice versa. I'll bring something to the table that triggers Jenny. And it's not about my actions so much as it is about, Oh, it feels like it's sad.
You know, it looks the same, and actually that's exactly. I mean, that's all couples. That's all couples, and that's
the thing. It's like, I am not your dad. But like when you know, we got married, it felt in a lot of ways that dynamic of being in my shadow, if you will, Jason Biggs's wife, all of the things that you know, my plus one, all of that stuff, it it goes you can take that shit that she was dealing with in the early stages of our relationship and still deals with and just go and go back a couple of years and see that it's a similar
thing to how she was dealing with her dad. When I'm triggered, It's like I'm reacting the same way for sure that I reacted when my mom said something when I was living at home, And I'm like, what the fuck is that? It's the same feeling for sure, And we're having a hard time, Like we've been with the same therapists for seventeen years, since before.
We got married.
And we were married nine months, so to tell you, you know what I mean, Like she has been with us before we even knew each other. And now it goes like this in terms of our abilities to recognize these triggers and take a step back before we get into a fight, like seeing that we're being triggered and go oh, okay.
And we're like in a place.
Right now where we need where it just happened to Like we're getting caught up in our triggers more than usual.
We're both very busy.
I think we're parenting is fucking hard, the hardest thing we've ever done. And all of these sort of external factors have now made it harder for us to all the work that we've done and all the tools that we've paid for quite a lot of money.
For yes, seventeen years worth of therapy.
Is like we're forgetting them.
We're forgetting them, or we're just not accessing them, or we don't want to access them because we're back to wanting to be right again for some reason.
Right now, it's not even that we want to be right.
We want to be considered because I think that there's a a thing with Jason and I were we were both like codependence to like a narcissistic parent, right, And so we want to be heard and we want like to be prioritizing, and so it's hard for us to like it's like you can go first. It's your dime, you go first, right, And it's so hard to like allow that other person to go first.
I think a lot of giving this problem to our narcissistic parent.
Where you go, I'm going to let you go first, and I'm not going to bring up my shit right now, I'm going a whole day and I don't need to say, but what about me? And that's a discipline that you like have to learn in a relationship to not say, but what about me right now? It's like save it for later, let them have it, be generous enough to like let them make it, make it about them, to sort of like help them heal that shit and then
get your own needs met later. When you both want to go at the same time, it never works.
But even when we're able to do that, we're not always able to do it with empathy. Like we're like, okay, fine, you know what you go, you go, you go, well, but when you're ready, I'll go myself. It's like that's also not how to do it. It's like, but like props to me, I stopped. Okay, you go your dime. But it's all in tone, it's all in how you do it. We're not doing it with empathy. Then it's like fuck you, I don't want.
To right exactly.
That can become competitive too exactly. Okay, Well, on that note, that's the We're gonna wrap up this episode of Jenny and Jason and then we'll be back for episode four. Okay, so you can check out Jenny mull and substack the Best Friend Experience and her new side hustle, The Shirts off my Back where you can buy fabulous vintage clothes, and you can also check out Jenny and Jason co hosting Dinner in a Movie on TBS