Hi Catherine.
Oh hi Chelsea.
Hi, you're talking to a forty nine year old woman. I mean, birthday, What a birthday? I had? Oh so much love. You should see my house just covered in flowers and champagne and drugs and cheese. It's just a fantasy. I'm living out my fantasy.
That's great.
What did you do on the day, Well, I have some guests. I have about four friends at my house. They came in. So we had a big party Saturday night for my friend Kelly and I. We had a joint birthday party, which was really fun. Yeah, everybody got real fun and we did dance. We did dance it, we did dancing. My friend's like, are you Mollie because you only dance when you're on Mollie. I'm like, then I must be on Mollie anyway, you know how much
I love drugs. So we had a big party. Then we got up the next day yesterday for my birthday, and it was a blizzard, like blustery, crazy winds. That's a good thing, right, I mean it was pretty gnarly conditions. But for me, you know, it's fine. I love it.
I love the cold, and I love that.
And I mean I at one point it was skiing down the mountain and the wind was so strong it stopped me, like I'm going downhill and I just stopped. But I had a great time. I had a great dinner at my favorite restaurant last night with a bunch of my friends, and it was just one of those days,
like lots of lots of laughter, lots of surprises. My friends always kind of set me up, set up a little surprise area, you know, on the on the mountain somewhere, and they put up a little happy birthday banner and they were playing Bruce Springsteen for me, and they had drinks and food and it was just really fun.
You sound very loved up by all your phone.
I do feel loved. I feel very loved and I love everyone. And I also lost my phone, so I can't even check all my messages.
I mean, that's great for your mental health, just like no social media, no no.
I know.
And plus I put oh yeah, I put I put out my birthday video, so I have to see how that performed. I want to see what my reactions are. But my friend just DM me saying your birthday videos on the Today Show, so I guess it was a big hit, fantastic. I added a second show in Vancouver. I added a second show in Didney, Australia. I added the Santa Barbara Bull in August. Yay, you leave it there, huge and so yeah that was I performed there my last tour and I was like, I need to come
here every time I perform. So that's exciting. And yeah, I have added a bunch of new tour dates. I'm going to be touring through all of twenty twenty four. I had such fun shows last weekend. We went to Edmonton and Calgary. I brought one of my daughters. Well she's my son. We call her my son, but everyone's the opposite sex in our family, and everyone knows who's what.
It doesn't really matter.
They called me dad, so I have to call them a son. And we went to Edmonton and Calgary, which were awesome shows.
Again.
So yeah, anyway, I have Canadian dates left, but there's only tickets left for the Vancouver show. Second show March thirtieth, so awesome. Yeah, Okay, that's the story.
Morning glory good.
Are you watching anything good anything on TV? Or watching or movies you've seen?
No, I've been reading and writing mostly when I in my spare time. I haven't watched anything in a few days.
Yeah, I just went and saw. It's like barely on in the theaters anymore, but I've just went and saw the Zone of Interest. Did you see it?
No? No? No, what's up?
It is about Auschwitz and it's about a family that lives right outside of Auschwitz and someone who works at the camp, and it is I guess they actually screened it at Auschwitz as well for people to come see it, because it's such like an important film.
How lovely. I didn't know Aschwitz had a screening room. I did neither, but you know that place has really turned around.
Yeah, it almost feels like a horror movie. It's very unnerving.
It's called Zone of Interest, the.
Zone of Interest, and it's up for an oscar or two as well. It's haunting in a way that you don't expect. And I've never seen anything like this. Oh with that topic, so I great. Yeah, I would recommend. I do have a follow up from one of our callers from a recent episodisode, Akroneffa, who called in on the Nicolevant episode. She wrote in to thank us for chatting with her, and she says, I'm doing very well. Honestly, since having the opportunity to speak with Chelsea and Nicole,
my perspective on losing my mom has changed. It was their insistence that our mothers are always with us something clicked in me, and I told myself that that's something I will never question again. It almost felt sacrilegious to my own intuition and inner knowing to constantly question if my mom and ancestors are with me. So after that day, I made a decision to no longer question it, and
it's stuck. I also forgot to mention this during the podcast, but Chelsea was part of my decision to do ayahuasca last year in Peru, and I got confirmation then too that my ancestors are all around me. I'm grateful to have had this fact confirmed again by Chelsea and Nicole. Sincerely, Akernaffa, I know, just a total sweetheart.
Okay, our guest today is a two time Olympic gold medalist and author of the number one New York Times bestseller wolf Pack. Together with her wife Glennon Doyle, she co hosts the award winning, critically acclaimed We Can Do Hard Things to podcasts. So please welcome back to the show. Abby womback.
Are you in Whistler?
I am, Yes, I am. Where are you, sister?
It's in La at home.
Are you guys at the beach?
We rented a place a block from our house that's actually like right on the beach, so she can go and write and paint there and that's really fun. So we have like direct views.
That's cute. When she's not painting and writing there, What are you using the house.
For hanging out? Yeah, we do our work, most of our real work in our real house, so we just go over there for fun watching the sunset.
That's cute. That's very cute. I haven't seen you since the Angel City game, that's right. Congrats on Angel City by the way. What an incredible organization to be a part of.
Yeah, it's so cool. We're so proud of it. And you know, it's just kind of like the beginning. I mean, just in terms of the business itself, in the business of women's sports and the business of women's soccer, things are really looking up. There's huge potential for growth and literally to be sitting in the stands every single game,
every single home game for Angel City. It feels actually like a dream because I was there twenty years ago when there was like forty to fifty people in the stands and I was like still playing as hard as I could, and so the experience for not just the players is just drastically different. But to just go into being into that environment, it's just it's really special. It's really really special.
Yeah, I mean, I'm curious to hear about how it feels as a retired athlete to be a part of that, because it must be bittersweet.
Yes, very much jealous. There's a huge jealousy component. And also this is kind of what I did all of that work for. Early on in my career, one of my coaches said to me, is like the first year of my professional career. He said, well, everything that you've build, it's going to be ten x one hundred x bigger
ten years after you retire. And I was just like like fuck you, Like no way, Like it's gonna be big while I'm here, you know, like I'm going to reap the rewards for this, and he's like, no, you won't, and he was right. Sadly, Yeah, I made money, but I didn't make nearly as much money as they're making now, which is really great. You know, the World Cup, the Women's World Cup is like one of the top four or five viewed sporting events on television in the world
of all sports. That's above the Super Bowl, that's above the NBA playoffs, like the number four out of ten. So we've come a long way. And yeah, I wish I was out there playing, capable of still playing on some level. But also I'm so tired, Like my body's old, and it's fine, and it's totally both things can be true. I can have a little bit of fomo and also just be sitting in the in the stands, you know, reveling at the women on the field.
Yeah, because you're part of it. You know, even though you're not on the field, you definitely have a big part in it. And so that must be fulfilling. It's fulfilling to watch female succeed from my vantage point when I don't really have. I mean, I've invested in a lot of female sports because of obviously the uptick and the you know, it's like women have been underserved for so long. We serve it up and look how we show up for each other. It's obvious and ridiculous where
we drive the entire economy. So that's really nice to see. I mean, you don't have to be in sports to appreciate that women are getting the you know, attention that they deserve and the respect that they deserve. And we have a long way to go still, but it's nice to see it happening in strides. I would say, Okay, so listen, I know you started therapy recently.
Yes, I have been in and out of therapy since I guess college. My college coach forced me into therapy. It was not a willing participant. Let's just say that I was not doing well in school. I was really probably partying too much. And back then, this is in the late nineties, gayness wasn't cool or hip. It was like frowned upon. And she thankfully had a gay brother and noticed that I was kind of having some of these tendencies and wanted me to have somebody professional to
talk to. So I got into therapy then, and I just recently started about six months ago, now, I guess. And it all started because I did an Enneagram test and we had an aneagram expert on. Her name is Suzanne Stabil. She's incredible and She basically kind of said, look, you're an enthusiast. You need to work on your shadow side. And when she said it, like it was like this full body like Okay, finally you're right. I know it. I've always known it. Avoided the sadness, I've avoided the
pain of my life. I've avoided and I you know, for a lot of years I used I used drugs and alcohol to numb the moments of those pains and sadnesses and grief and heartbreak. And so I decided to be kind of proactive about it, and I've been doing quite a bit of work and it's been really fucking fascinating. Chelsea. I have to tell you, and I didn't know this at the time, but you know, my brother passed away
a couple months ago. So the world and the universe kind of works in interesting ways to help, you know, these little whispers help you prepare for what's ahead, and so that's been really helpful through the grieving process of losing my brother.
I'm so sorry about your brother.
Yeah, it's so sad, and it's so it was such a tragic you know, he's fifty one, and I'm so glad that I started this work six months ago. I'm so glad that I started to like create a relationship with the sadder parts of myself and that has been kind of a revolution for me. And PS like still in the middle of this grief shit, like, wow, it's intense, it's really something. But I have like the professionals in
my life to help steer and guide me. And you know, Glennon's obviously very enlightened in the world of feeling things. And so just weird because Glennon is working on we're kind of like we've switched positions. She's working on different stuff and I'm working on this sadness piece and the sorrow and this grief piece right now. And I just think that therapy has been And every time I go I'm about to go into a therapy session, I'm like, I should probably just cancel.
I don't really need it totally. That's exactly what happens when you need it the most, right.
Yeah, I don't really need this. And then after the therapy session, I'm like, Okay, that was smart. I'm glad that I did not cancel.
Yes, Well, do you think there's a relationship between having a relationship with the sad parts of yourself and your shadow in your relationship with your shadow self, because I think let's talk about the shadow self. For those of us who are listening who aren't really familiar with that term, what does that mean to you?
Abby, I would say, I would say sadness is a component of my shadow side. So as like a Gemini, I'm I'm born June second, so my sign is Gemini. I have like two parts to myself. I have always identified more with the happy, joy, enthusiastic, light parts of myself, and I have pretty much ignored all of the sad, depressing, grieving, sorrow, heartbreak shadow sides. It's easier to kind of think about
as in like light and dark. However, the more work I'm doing, the more I'm understanding that those are just binaries that help our brains understand what feelings are. And recently I feel like words are so incomplete when it comes to this deep, hard work that I'm trying to do. So the way that I would think about the shadow side are the parts of myself because Glenna and I we do ifs, which is internal family systems, were versed in it, and that's kind of the way in which
we are entering into the therapy space. We all have parts of ourselves. And if you can imagine sitting at like a table, and you have like a capital S part which is like the wise, the smart, the one that knows all the other parts, the one that accepts
and loves all the other parts of yourself. The shadow side is like the fear and the terror, and the anger and the trauma and the judging, like all of these parts that are part of who we are, part of why we are the way we are for certain reasons, based on our experiences, based on our families, based on our past, and those parts of myself. I've never really given a voice at the table. I've never given a
chance to speak up. I'm like, nope, putting you away, locking you in the room, don't like you, you know. And I've gotten heartbroken before, and so I then utilized all these other modalities to avoid numb, to not deal with. So the irony of this grief now that I'm going through is that because I have so many other unresolved heartbreaks or grief that I've gone through, I'm also dealing with them. It's like fucking whack themle I'm like Jesus Christ. Okay, okay,
we're going to go to nineteen ninety six here. Oh okay, great, let's go. So that's kind of how I would talk about the shadow side of myself at least. And it's complicated. It's not like one size fits all. It's not black or white, it's not good or bad. It's just like the human experience that I'm trying to have. I'm trying to experience it more fully. And the more I do this work, the more I realize the shadow side is not dark. It's just a part of the spectrum of
my humanity. And it's something that I've kind of always been a little afraid of, meaning like afraid of death, you know, all of the Catholic things that I was indoctrinated into believing. I'm trying to unwind and un unbelieve because I don't think that it's it's light and dark or good or bad. It's just people, complicated people having gone through complicated circumstances that create parts of ourselves that we either want to face or we don't. And I'm finally just wanting to face myself. Now.
Wow, Yeah, I think a lot of us can relate to you learn so much about yourself through therapy that you have to start to unlearn so many things. The more you learn, the more you need to unlearn. And so it's like this toggle back and forth. And I know from personally when I didn't understand that what shadow self meant for a long time, and when I was
in therapy it was revealed to me. But I assumed all those negative thoughts or wanting bad things to happen to bad people, or people to get their karma that they deserved, or to be invidious of another, those were all qualities that made me a bad person. When those are just thoughts that are happening, you don't have to
subscribe to them or participate even in them. It's a totally normal and human nature to have negative thoughts about situations, about yourself, about others about, to have lustfulness, to have jealousy, to have any of the things that are thought to be negative. And the actual healthiest way to deal with all of that is by acknowledging that they exist and not letting them overpower you. And by that acknowledgment that all of these thoughts exist in all each of us,
you aren't letting them overpower you. It's when you are denying those thoughts and trying to put them away where they do take over.
It's good, that's exactly right. It's really good.
And I think also what's interesting about what you're saying is one of the things that people who refused to go to therapy, people who refuse to seek help, they think they can get away with that and that it won't knock on their door, and your grief and your trauma don't go anywhere. They only get bigger inside of you. They get bigger and bigger and bigger until there is a break. And then sometimes that break is disastrous to
your well being, and sometimes it's easily recoverable. You can go to therapy, you can like you know, seek out answers, and it can be trying, but like, there is no shortcut around it. So by evading all of these issues. And there are people in my life who do this, who are like, I don't have anything to I have nothing to learn, like I want to do that, I don't want to go there, And it's like, okay, but it doesn't. Your life doesn't have to be this way.
There is unadulterated joy and bliss waiting on the other side. For you, if you just have the bravery and guts to go through this little tricky path that you're going to have to go through.
Yeah, it's scary. It's it's scary, it's expensive, Like it feels like therapists are impossible to get booked right now, and and so I do want to just say, like it is a privileged position. I do feel privileged to be able to provide and create an environment to be in a therapy space. But I come from a family
who doesn't really subscribe to it. I mean, I have a couple of brothers and sisters who are in therapy, but for the most part, my family's like therapy, what are you gonna you know, what is that going to teach me? And I don't think that we get away with much as human beings. I think that some things haunt us, you know, like we have like a deeper knowing. Like I mean, it's like when Suzan said, I think that you're going to have to spend some time working
on your shadow side. It was like the secret I have been keeping to myself from myself that she exposed out loud, and it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the thing I've been avoiding my whole life. That's the work I need to do. And I'm finally, you know, in a space that I've been sober for you know, seven eight years now, and I'm solid in my marriage with Glennon, and we're finally like in a place where we're both doing like extremely personal work on our own selves.
And I think that we both needed to find each other to be able to do this work. And so I do feel lucky to be able to do it, but I also know that they're I don't I don't know if we get away with much. I think that I think that even in our last breath, it's something that will. I just want to make my transition into the next phase of whatever existence is after life. I
want to make that as peaceful as possible. And so I want to do the work so that I feel like all of it has been all of the stones have been unturned as much as I possibly can.
And also so you don't have to repeat performance, right like, yes, God forbid, we are being reincarnated and come back. I don't want to come back. I want this to be the last rodeo, like let me. I just want to nail everything. I'm supposed to now give me a challenge. I'm fucking on it, you know what I mean. I don't want any hoops to jump through after this. I want to go to sleep. Okay, so we're gonna take
some callers. Abby, thank you for your openness. I think it's always fascinating to hear about, you know, people's lives changing. I mean, people's lives are always changing, and being open to it is such a beautiful, bountiful thing to do. Like, to be open to change in your life and to not have this narrow minded view of things is just like it's the key to freedom and happiness. Okay, we're gonna take a break and we'll be right bay and we're back with aviy wand back Olympic gold medalist and
author also. Okay, so we have some questions, Catherine, like, we have some callers. Let's get going. Let's see what we've got on the deck for today.
This next question I think fits in exactly what we were just talking about. But Allison says, Dear Chelsea, I've gone through some changes in the last six months and have become very introspective and reflective. I've started working on myself in order to be more confident and happy in my life. And one thing I'm looking for help with is forgiving myself of awful things that I've said to
people in the past when it was insecure and hurting. Obviously, I would never say these things now that I've grown as a person, but sometimes when I'm meditating or just thinking to myself, a memory reminds me of a time when I was a manager in retail and snapped at a subordinate or didn't take someone's mental health issues seriously. I've also said mean things when my temper flares up.
I won't remember saying it, but my sister said that I really hit below the belt sometimes when I'm mad, As I've learned to calm down and not lose control. Thanks Chelsea, I hardly get mad anymore and have learned to take a beat before responding. I know I need to stop beating myself up about it, but is it really worth apologizing to these people for things I said years ago. I know we give ourselves closure, but I'm wondering if others need that too. Thanks so much for
all your help. This podcast has been a real part of my progression and self awareness. Sincerely, Allison and I should say her subject line was therapized and ready to apologize, So therapy has been a big part of this transition, I think for her.
I mean that's a very interesting question because it's like how big was the infraction and how offensive were you and is there a need to apologize so many years later If it was, like, you know, you snapping at an employee, I mean, if you really feel the need to go and do that, then yes, go, but also it should be measured, like don't bring up something that
someone is probably not going to even remember. I mean, it's a nice it's a nice idea, but it's more kind of selfish than anything else in terms of if it wasn't a big deal and you're just like, you know, trying to make yourself feel better. I mean, you obviously know if there are people in your life that you really hurt, and that starts with your family and your
closest friends. When you're talking about employees, and if there's like I would say, there's a statute of limitations with regards to employees, Like if it was five years ago and you snapped at someone, I don't know that you need to send that person a letter. You can but that's up to you. I just don't think that's a requirement. If your sister has called you out on it repeatedly, then that's the person you need to apologize too, and any other people that have called you out on it
and said that their feelings have been hurt. And I personally subscribe to this theory of you always get a chance to make a new impression. And while this isn't true for everyone in your life, you usually circle around the people that you've hurt as an opportunity to resurface in a way where they can see that you've changed and they can see your growth, and you can act in kindness and you can kind of make a new impression to replace the last impression. I believe that to
be true. That has been true in my life, and when I have that opportunity, I take it. So it's more of like the opportunity presenting itself and me taking it and leveling up to that moment, not seeking out the moments. But that's just me. So it's whatever is going to be best for your development and your peace
of mind. But also just think about when you're dealing with these instances, who has really been heard and who was just like, okay, whatever, that's just you know, a moment in a day that they're nobody's going to remember totally.
I also, I just want to add it sounds to me a little bit like you have a little bit more work to do in the self forgiveness department, because once you can access and create a relationship with yourself around that kind of forgiveness of maybe what headspace you were in, or what protective parts were rising up in you to say these you mean things, or whatever it might be, if you do actually truly understand those elements, then self forgiveness can come because you can understand that
you were just trying to protect yourself for whatever reason. We all were born and raised in different families, in different houses, with different belief systems. You have different traumas, you have different backgrounds, you have different experiences than all of the people that you meet in your life that give evidence as to why we respond in certain circumstances
rather than others. And I think that if you can do a little bit more digging as to the why of where you were at the time, what made you respond or interact with people in certain ways that now make you feel bad there was. I mean, this is the work for me that I've done in my sobriety, because you know, the shame is what just took me down for so many years and kept me in the fight, kept me in the grips of addiction for so long.
And until I figured out that addiction was serving a part of me, that it was protecting me, that it was protecting me in some ways, I was then and only then able to forgive myself for the self harm that I was inflicting upon myself. And that is when I realized, oh, okay, then the amends come out because you don't have shame around the action. So then you can go and say all of your apologies, whether they land or not is not your business, right. You only
can clean up your side of the streets. So that's all I'll say.
I love that. Yeah, I think that's very true because yeah, we can also labor like our bad behavior, and it's like that's not an act of kindness or forgiveness to anyone either sitting there and ruminating over what you did
what you did. It's like you should also be able to recale great your focus on the future and changing that behavior and not repeating past mistakes right, and that also gives you a sense of, oh, okay, some of those apologies may not be necessary because you've actually learned that you can do better when you know better.
Yep.
Yeah, and I think you know, if you do decide to like DM an old coworker or you know, discuss it with your sister. I think Chelsea's point of not making it about yourself is really important. So like, rather than saying I've changed, I've changed, just like focus on like here is my apology for how I was before and.
Making it light like, you know, I've been doing some work on myself and I felt like this might have been a pretty crappy thing to say to you at this time. Just want to let you know I apologize, you know, and then that's actually takes it all off of your plate and you don't have to even look for a response, and if you get one, great, And that's a generous, gracious person.
Yeah. Where our next question comes from Aarin. She was a graphic designer. Aaron says, Dear Chelsea, on your episode with ze Way, you talked about aging and how there's a double standard for women. I've been thinking more about that and wanted your advice. I've always looked quote young for my age. Recently, several people have told me how young I look. These were isolated events and by themselves didn't bother me, but the collection of experiences have me
feeling self conscious. On one hand, I'm youthful and society tells me that's a good thing, and I'm so lucky. On the other hand, as I advance in my career, I wonder if my appearance is holding me back. I work in a male dominated field world really and feel like I'm already second guest because I'm a woman. I worry that looking younger is not helping my case. I've been interviewing for some jobs, and some are in leadership positions.
My mom suggested I wear more makeup and interviews to look older, but first, I suck at makeup, and second it seems disingenuous. I want to be respected for being me. I've seen a lot of sexism in the corporate world, and I'm definitely jaded. I just don't know what to do if I need to change my appearance, dress more mature. I've even considered wearing fake glasses to get more respect. Any advice would be great. Aaron hi erin Hi yo, yo yo.
How's it going? Thanks for having me? Yeah, this is Abby wamback our special guest for today. Hi Abby, what are your thoughts on that?
Well?
I have a lot of thoughts, mostly because I haven't subscribed to the patriarchal ideas of what womanhood could be. I've kind of gone the opposite route. However, I've recently texted Chelsea a couple of months ago because my face is starting to get older and I'm getting you know, crows feets and discolored eyes, the whole thing. So trying to figure out what the next steps are because you
are going to get older. I do understand that it might feel bad to present younger and you aren't getting the same kind of spect I also think you teach people how to treat you one way or another energetically. I mean, I kind of like the idea that you might be seen as like an underdog. I thrive in that, like, oh, you think that I'm young, Oh you think I'm not good enough, Like, oh, I can't wait to prove you wrong.
To me, it feels like it can be a positive, but I totally understand how it can feel lonely and debilitating on some level to try to progress in your career. I'm not the person to talk about makeup with because I'm like, no makeup is the best option.
I'm kind of same boat.
So yeah, yeah, and I don't think that. I mean, how old are you? I'm twenty eight, Okay, you you look like you're twenty eight to me, I don't.
I feel like, Yeah, everyone else in my life lately I've been telling me differently, so that's good to hear.
I guess, yeah, I hate the idea. I mean, my dad with my friend with this recently, or my friend is dealing with this in her job recently, that she needed to be dressing in a certain way for men to take her seriously. And I take a lot of offense to that, Like, I really don't think we should be reorganizing our looks to make people respect us more.
That's not where respect comes from. Yeah, you want to throw on a pair of glasses, great, okay, But it's like, it's your disposition and it's your self assuredness that are going to gain respect from others and your work and your performance at work. So when you sharpen all of those things and focus on the task at hand. It's going to be indebutable, like how valuable you are based you know what I mean, Your looks are going to become they're they're the first thing that people see and
the first thing that people ingest. Unfortunately, but that doesn't have to be the way it remains. And I think our behavior dictates how we are treated in a workplace, even when you are surrounded by men, because eventually, after enough time goes by and you prove yourself to be a valuable employee, people are going to respect that and
expect you to deliver value. Right, They're going to expect And so I think the quickest road there is the direct one where you're just proving by your performance how valuable you are and standing assuredly in your own shoes, you know, standing up tall, standing up for yourself, not waffling, not wavering. When men are trying to intimidate you, or they're just intimidating you and they're not trying you, Actually, that's a signal for you to be like, Okay, this
is my opportunity. This is my opportunity to stand my ground. This is my opportunity to make a contribution here, Whether it's conversational. Whether it's like workflow wise or it's about a project, it's actually like an opportunity to gain respect each time that you deliver something of value. Because what I'm hearing from you is that you have a lot of self respect, right yeah, so use that in your job, and then that is going to be an undeniable thing
to people. Once you just keep putting that foot forward, people are going to realize your value and you're going to get past the hair and the makeup and all that bullshit. That's all noise, that's I'm not real. Nobody can be judged solely based on their appearance. That was a very hard lesson for me to learn, because I believe everyone was supposed to be physically attractive for me to connect with. That's what I believe. For a long time, I was like, Oh, I don't like the way that
person looks. I don't think we can connect. It's like, wait, what I mean? People aren't here to physically please me? So it's actually so the opposite is true for you too, Like you know you're you are physically pleasing too many people, but that is not where your value comes from. So the two things are very separate, and they should stay separate, you know. And I wouldn't count out to what any anybody's expectations are. You don't need to dress up or
any of that bullshit. That's just that's nonsense.
You know.
You stick to what you know, and you stick to what you're good at, and people will catch on.
I also think you said something in your letter that is really important. You said, I'm starting to become self conscious, and that is problematic when you start only seeing herself through the eyes from other people towards yourself. Becoming self conscious is to become aware of who you are and then to see out with your own eyes, to become the positive way of being. Like, to know thyself is
such an important quality. But watch the vantage point. The vantage point is really important when it comes to self consciousness. And I think that the male gaze we forget that we shouldn't be putting our consciousness in the eyes of the male gaze.
Yeah, that's something I struggle with for sure. It's how people perceive any constent.
Yeah, y yes, I mean welcome to humanity, right, I'll do it. Instagram, all social media. It makes us all fucking crazy like that. But at the end of the day, you have to figure out what you want to feel and how you want to look. I mean, our kids, they use makeup and stuff, and we are conscious. We're always trying to ask. I'm like, are you doing this for you or for other people? And they know better.
They're in high school now, they're like, I'm doing it for my own sense of self and we're like, okay, like we'll figure we'll deal with that problem another day. But that self consciousness piece was something that really stuck out in your letter.
Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
Yeah, And I think people are sort of simple when it comes to like someone wearing a power suit and a pair of glasses. Might you know, some people might think they're smarter or more powerful, but you have to do what makes you feel powerful when you're going into these interviews. And to me, it doesn't sound like throwing on too much mescara is going to actually make you feel more powerful, right, It'll make you feel a little awkward.
So I think, yeah, going in with the look that makes you feel most powerful, and also like you seem like a very confident person, so like really channeling that yeah, awesome.
Yeah, And Resting in who you really are is actually the most powerful version of yourself that you can be, regardless of whether what situation, whether it's a work dynamic or whether it's a personal dynamic or it's a new person dynamic that you don't know. Resting like not pushing and actually resting in who you are, being present minded when you are there and you are in focus, that's
what creates a flow state. That's what when you are really there, like working to the best of your ability and focusing on what your strengths are, knowing that you're of value like that projects to the next person, then that comes off of you and then that's that's kind of an undeniable way to be. You know, people can't argue with that because they don't know what it is, but they know that they need to respect it.
That's right.
Well, thank you so much.
Well you're welcome, so much, good luck and thank you. So go into your next meeting and tell all those jackasses to go fuck off. I will perfect tell them I sent you.
Oh bye, okay, all right, well, our next caller is Chloe.
Chloe says, dear Chelsea, longtime fan, love the show. I'm in my mid thirties and have been with my husband for over ten years. We met in my early twenties and have had a really great relationship. We've always been a bit different, me being more adventurous, outgoing and a dreamer. He's more down to earth and practical. He's handsome, has
a good career, and has always treated me well. I always thought that our opposites attract type relationship was a good thing, but as the years have gone on, I feel like we've only grown more different and this has caused a lot of resentment. I feel like I'm being stifled and not living to my full potential. In an effort to help him feel more comfortable, I have a lot of things that I'm passionate about, my career, home renovation, travel,
I fucking love skiing, and my friends. And side note about the home renovation, they recently purchased like a house to restore together, and I think that's been sort of a bone of contention. All of this can be very overwhelming for my husband. Additionally, I've always been straightforward about not wanting kids, and although he says he's okay with this, his words and actions throughout the years make me think otherwise. I don't want either of us to have to compromise
so significantly for the other. And there hasn't been cheating, lies or scandal that people typically associate with a good reason for divorce. So am I wrong to feel that I might want one? I recently asked him for a trial separation and he has been devastated by this. Although some friends are very supportive, others think I'm crazy for leaving such a good man. Sometimes I do too, as an outsider. Do you feel my concerns could warrant a divorce or do I try and work it out? Chloe?
Hi, Chloe, Hey, how's it going?
Hi?
How are you? This is Abby, our special guest.
W I'm back Hi Abby, Hi Chelsea, Hi Catherine.
Hi, Hi Chloe. So you asked your husband for a trial separation, but you're not separated yet, not officially. So listening to your letter be read by Catherine, I did not think you were going to go there. Can you get into more specifics of what drove you to this separation. It seems that he's leaning on you a little bit more heavily.
Yeah, yeah, you know, I think that you know, with relationships, it's never like one. I mean it can be, but a lot of times it's never just one specific thing. And I think that the final breaking point for me is we have this incredible, incredible home that I'm obsessed with. It's kind of like my project. It brings me a
lot of purpose and joy. He fucking hates it, and we just kept arguing about it, and really it was just the culmination of everything of where our relationship was going, you know, him wanting maybe a little bit more of a simple life, simple career, you know, maybe starting a family, and me going in this other direction where I'm really growing a lot in my career, growing a lot in my passions. You know, I still like absolutely love to travel and be with my friend and have a really busy,
crazy life that doesn't include the family. And there was just something that happened with this house that we have that was just a breaking point. I was just like, I gotta, I gotta step away from this. I just don't know if we are headed in the right direction anymore.
Well, it sounds like he shouldn't be a part of that project to begin with, because, first of all, the number one reason couple's breakup is from a house renovations that happens I've been in. I was in a relationship with a man we were building. We bought these things and we were renovating them, and our designer was like, the number one reason couple's breakup is because of this, and I was like, oh my god, who are those
people cut to? We fucking broke up. So, I mean because he was so annoying about this, and I was like, I don't give a fuck, Like I couldn't believe he wanted to go to all these appointments with me, and it was just so annoying. But like, it's not for everybody. That's your passion clearly and not his. So like does he need to be involved?
So we tried it both ways. We've flip flopped it several times. We've had this home for about five years now, and we've tried it where he's fully involved. We've tried it where it's partly involved, completely not involved, and none of the options have worked.
None of the options have worked.
None of the options have worked.
Okay, and so you think a trial separation is where you're at.
We are in trail separation right now. But we've been doing this now for a while, probably about six months or so, and I think where I'm at right now that I really need some help and advice on is I don't feel any different than I did when I asked for this. You know, when I asked for this, I actually felt really relieved. And the things that I do that are kind of separated from him excite me.
And when I think about getting back together, I'm like, it gives me a lot of anxiety, to be honest, and the hard part is is he is overall a very good man. He is honest, he is good looking, he has a great job, He's always been very good to me. But I feel like I'm at this breaking point of like, is this still what I want to do for the rest of my life? I'm fucking scared
of being alone. Am I giving up somebody who is a really, really good person who loves me a lot, just for the sake of more freedom?
Are you guys in therapy?
Yes?
Yeah? And has that gleaned any different feelings for you? Or is it just not really?
I feel like it's just a competition constantly of like who's the better person or who's the worst person. I feel like we've changed therapists three times, and unfortunately way, you.
Should change therapists if they're not working. That's what the problem so many people is that they think that they're stuck with the one they found. It's like, no, there are a million therapists out there. Well, they may be very busy right now, there's always somebody else, you know, but I don't know. I mean, from what you're saying, it seems like you have one foot out the door and you are out the door. And I mean a lot of people would be listening to this, and I'm
sure are going, what's this woman's problem? You've got all these things that so many women would want, but it's still not enough for you. And that's fine too, Like you should know what's enough for you if this is going to fulfill you. You're saying that you're being excited by all these other things outside of your life that aren't involved in your marriage. I mean, that's your answer right there, right, And you want me to tell you to leave your husband? Gosh, I don't.
I mean it's so fucking hard, you know, Like, yeah, you're right. A lot of women, including my friends, including my mother, they're all like, are you crazy? You know, he's crazy about you and you've got such a good thing going that so many people want.
But I don't know.
Maybe I am crazy, and maybe I don't.
I don't think you're crazy. I just I just want to acknowledge all the women that are listening to this thinking because I know they are going, oh my god, what's this woman complaining about? And I would like to say, good for you for knowing that this isn't enough. Like it's good for you for being in touch with yourself and enough to know, Okay, I'm scared of being alone, but I'm not scared enough to not do it. That is a very powerful thing for a woman to feel,
and I applaud that. And I think that you know the answers to these questions. And so I'm not going to give you any answers because I'm not going to decide your relationship for you, because you've already figured it out. Abby, You're nodding, what are you thinking?
Well, I think that I don't know, Chelsea. I don't think you've been married and divorce right.
No, No, I didn't want to get divorced, so I didn't get married.
Yeah, so I think I might be the only one who's been through a divorce on this on this.
Little perfect what don't you take it?
Yeah?
And I mean, Chelsea, you said it right. It sounds to me like you already know what you know and you're pulling the crowd with which you know. All of these people, myself included, can give you all the advice in the world, but you're the only one that really
knows what you want. And people grow apart. I mean, I cared so much for my first wife, like we were mad about each other, and then things change, Life happens, You get to change your mind, you get to go in a different, a totally different direction what I want to say. And this was true for me, and I think it's true for all of us. There's something inside
of you. Might be deep, you might be just starting to listen to her, but there's a part of you that is inside of you that you are listening to and it's always been there, And just turn up the volume on her a little bit now. Doesn't mean you're going to get a divorce. I have no idea, but there's something that it's trying to say, and I think that you deserve to sit and listen to that little part of you you and ps no matter what you decide. I'm here to tell you it's going to be okay.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It already is okay because you've got you. And that was one thing that I forgot when I was going through my divorce because I was so a mesh with my ex that I forgot that I had me independent of that other person. And that is a hard truth to swallow, especially because you committed to this marriage. And ps, if you do choose to get a divorce, that does not mean that your marriage was a failure. These are contracts. Maybe your contract with this person is up. That's for
you to decide, and it's gonna be okay. And I know how fucking hard it is, and I'm sorry because it is a really big stress and it is hard. Both things can be true at the same time. Staying is hard, leaving is hard.
Thank you so much.
I mean so much of what you said hits so true. I do feel like there is this internal voice that's just like screaming that something's not right.
Chills. I just got chills all over my body.
Yeah.
And also, you know it's not going to feel like this initially, but when you leave a situation that isn't right for you. You're acting in service to both of you, to you and your husband, because he deserves to be with someone who does love him and who he can share his life with and you know, not have to have a person there kind of figuring out.
There is no such thing as one way liberation. Liz Gilbert says that there is no such thing as one way liberation. You will be doing him a service. Also.
Oh, I believe that too, you know, especially with the Although he says that he is happy enough with me to stay with just me together without having a family, I do think deep down that's really what he wants to and I think that in this I could really see that for him in the future, and I want him to have that if that's what she really wants.
Yeah, happy enough isn't good enough?
So true?
Yeah? Yeah, Okay, Well I'm glad you called in.
I am so grateful and glad that you guys had me. Honestly, I mean, I've tried a lot, tread therapy, tried taro and tell a lot of things. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna try Chelsea and whatever. Awesome guess she has on board.
Awesome. Thank you so much for calling in, and good luck to you, Thank you bye. That's a good caller for our listeners to listen to.
Yeah, it's almost like the answer is easier when it's like, Okay, this person is a monster. When the person's not a monster, it's such a harder decision.
Yeah, but it's like it's so powerful to just go this is good, but it's not good enough. Yeah, this isn't enough for me. Like that's our lives are supposed to be as as great as we can possibly make them, not just like Okay, I hit this marker, I'm good, right Abby? What what you never? Are you? A? Seven? Enthusiasts on the Enneagram? Okay, yeah, I'm an eight?
What is an eight? Chelsea? What's an eight?
An eight is a fixer like come in, fix it and then but but harsh, like hard, like just wants to come in fix everybody's problems and then fuck off. That's exactly who I am. I'm like, please don't bother me again. Okay, but seven, that's interesting to know the enthusiast has has to do work on their shadows self, because this enthusiast is like the happiest kind of number on the on the spectrum. I think forward facing like
big vibes, good vibes, happy. Yeah, So that's interesting because yeah, if I have this new therapist who says, like, if this is true, the equal and opposite thing is true. Right, if you're feeling great and you're feeling expansive and you want and you're just joyful, like be careful because they're the equal and opposite part is true too, and you're just not tuned into that. And it's like, oh, Okay,
that's important to know. You know, everything is a balance, You're not just nobody is one thing, and in fact, if somebody is a lot of they're also a lot of the opposite of that thing.
That's right. And I think that I, I mean, my whole family would describe me as like an M and M. I have like a hard exterior shell, but I'm so gooey and like soft on the inside. But because of what I did for so long as an athlete, you know, I basically put on armor to protect myself from these parts of sadness or sorrow or heartbreak or grief. And I did a really good job because I'm very strong and I'm very powerful and I have a lot of willpower.
But yeah, I mean all the parts of yourself have to get seen and they need the light of day. It's hard work, I tell you what, It's not easy. It's not easy to sit and literally sit in the grief and let it drop from your head. You know, I went through a few weeks of bargaining and trying to find the justice in it and trying to understand it and make meaning of it. And it's like, I don't I don't think that that's you can't do grief in your head. It's just got to go through you,
all through your body. And you know, Chelsea, I know you lost your brother when you were super young, which is a different experience. But it's just like it's the worst and also oddly the best. It's weird to go through the to go through it the way that I'm going through it. It's like I feel like I'm really trying. I'm honoring my brother, whatever the fuck that means.
Well, I think as an adult, especially someone who has been to therapy, you have way more tools to deal with that kind of loss, and you can make more sense out of it. Even though it's senseless, it is a fact of life and a part of life that we all have to deal with is losing loved ones.
And as we get older, we have more skill sets and we have more capacity to understand that life is bigger than what we know, and that we know less than we think we do, and we accept that we don't know and there are things we don't have answers to and that we never will And so trying to make sense out of death is pointless. There is no sense. It's not sensical. It's the same thing that's what happens in war. It's not sensical. There's no way to make
sense of it, you know. So I think you know your body has to go through a grieving process separate from your mind, and you have to have a lot of work under your belt to understand the difference between those two things, and that the that they your mind and body work in concert, but they're also very disconnected, you know, until you do the work to connect them.
That's why, like when people get nervous they start shaking or they start quivering, it's like that's because your brain is sending your body a signal that you're not comfortable, that you're not prepared, that you're scared, that you're fearful, that you're nervous, whatever those signals are. It's like, that's how everything works in that circuitry. It's not easily measured, so people don't take it seriously. You know, energy and
and body mind chemistry and connection. I mean, we're learning more about it now, but it is fascinating and I love to learn about that because you hear about so many people. You know, they have a physical reaction to something, but they don't understand why because their brain has repressed that memory, but their body remembers that feeling.
Well. Yeah, being an athlete, I think that, especially an elite athlete for thirty plus years, I learned how to mind over matter physical experience. So the suffering that it takes, the lifting weights, the sprints, the diety like whatever it was,
I was able to do it. And so I have this unconscious belief I think that I can beat grief, that like, I don't need to do it because I know how to mentally leapfrog all of these difficult things, these outward these external struggles, and that just ain't it. It's just not it. And I've thought a lot about that in the last few months, like, oh my gosh, this is unlike anything I have been tested at and it's confusing for my body because my body's like, we
can do anything. You are a superstar, like what's happening, And my body's like, Nope, can't do it. Like just even these last two weeks, I've been like I can't even go for a walk. I've just like kacooned myself. And there's this little wise part of myself that's like speaking up, going, yes, this is what you need. Be still. You have used your body to jump out of grief before, you have used your body to overcome and not pay
attention to some of this stuff. So it's to be still, feel sorrow, feel sad, whatever it might be.
Absolutely Okay, we're going to take a break and we'll be right back to wrap things up with you. Abby wan back. Okay, we're back, Abby. Thank you for your candor. I loved hearing you talk about therapy. I'm sure many
of our listeners also loved it. It's so nice when you are able to talk freely about getting help right Like, it's such a gift to other people to hear that you're not nobody's alone and nobody's going through it as something that no one else has been through because that's just not true.
That's right. Every person on the planet has and is or is currently experiencing something that you're experienced, Like this experience down here is not one sided. We're doing it together. Whether we will like that or not, it's happening, and there are experts out there that can help navigate and help us navigate for ourselves the life that we want
and the way in which we want to go about it. Right, And I get that not everybody buys into some forms of therapy, but there are so many different kinds of therapy. You know, you have talk therapy, you have a lot of psychedelic stuff that's happening in the world. You've got
for me, this IFS Internal family systems. People should look into it because it's a totally different approach where it makes it so much less personal, which feels counterintuitive, but it really works for me because especially with all the shame stuff that I could go down with it with my addictive behaviors. There's just so many different kinds. So maybe you go to a therapist and it doesn't work for you, find a different therapist that's in a different genre of therapy.
Yeah, IFS. I've read about and I'm interested and curious to hear more about it. We should find somebody who could speak to that. Catherine on the podcast because I liked what I read so far.
Dick Schwartz is the guy. We actually just had him on our podcast. He's like the father of it.
And okay.
He took me, Glennon and Amanda through an exercise, an IFS exercise, which I think you should just have him on it. It's super interesting. I think that you would actually really really like it, Chelsea, love it.
Okay, Well, we will thank you Abby so much. So great to see you.
So good to see you guys. Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, anytime, take care and come back for sure. Okay. So, Chelsea Handler is my name, and comedy is my game. Comedy and therapy. There are my games. I'm sorry I misspoke. I have added more shows. I added a second show in Vancouver, so I have two shows in Vancouver March twenty ninth March thirtieth, I am coming to Calgary, Victoria, Colowna. Then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July thirteenth, So I have two shows in Sydney July twelfth and thirteenth.
For other shows in Australia at New Zealand, go to Chelsea Handler dot com. And I've added two shows in Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma on May third, and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma, which is May fourth, and then I'll be at the YouTube Theater May eleventh in Los Angeles with Matteo Laine and Vanessa Gonzalez and Fortune Femster and Sam Jay. Those are my updates and more shows are coming, so pay attention.
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com