Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. How are you. Oh, I'm well, thank you. It's September. We're still in September. I feel like September is definitely part of summer now, it's not the fall. I was at Disneyland. Okay, that's enough, Nope, no more talking. Almost died there. So there has been a heat wave in Los Angeles, and luckily I've only been there. I'm not there right now. I've only been in Los Angeles for six days this month. Oh my gosh.
So that's been good because I tried to avoid I tried to hop scotch around the country to avoid the heat. But yeah, one hundred and five degrees is gross, especially for like ten days straight. My family and I are in the business now, My cousins and my nuclear family are all in the business now of buying a compound. Oh, we are looking in Connecticut possibly. I told Molly to get on it because obviously I can't do any of the legwork. She's responsible, and she's responsible, way more capable
than I am doing almost anything. When we were on tour this last weekend, I was like, can you just go up and do my set for me? And She's like, no, that's one thing I cannot do say she probably knows that now. But I can do is my set. It's like I'm capable of doing nothing but talking excessively, and that I don't even really want to do that either. I mean, I don't know. Everything I do is writing talking. It's all word use. That's it. You're a specialist. I'm
a talking specialist. Even my editor came back to me last weekend and we had to do a legal call. I had to do a legal call to make sure, like book, yeah, for these situations that are true. And my book is going to be published on a very special date next year. It may or may not be my fiftieth birthday, So we will get to that when we get to that. But she was like, oh, we have to do and I'm like, listen, I don't know how many more conversations I can have about this fucking book.
I wrote it. It's in great fucking shape, and like, let's wrap it up. I told Molly, I'm like, I have to do a call about my book. She's like, oh my god, is that book still Oh my good? Has it even come out yet? And I'm already done talking about it?
So you need to like manifest for you, like things coming to a close, like things like moving the fuck.
I know, Oh, Doug, not you, Doug though, no, not you, you say we need you. Our guest today is someone you know as one of the Fab Five on Netflix's Queer Eye. He also has his talk show Karamo, which is back for it's third season. So please welcome Emmy winning talk show host Caramo Brown.
Through Life. I don't wait for anyone else to do it.
Yeah, no, exactly. You got a clap for yourself. If I could clap with my feet, I would be but I can't. I could do other things with my feet, though, but we'll get into that later. I'm sure. I'm just about to say, obviously you can too. We're recording in my house today, so this is very exciting, beautiful home. You're oh, well, thank you, it's coming together. You're our first in house guest ever. That is exactly well. I always love a black man to start anything off for me.
This is perfect. Okay. I want to talk to you about your story because it's pretty fascinating about your children, So break down for us. You came out when you were sixteen, is that right?
Fifteen?
Fifteen fifteen and you had already gotten someone pregnant unbeknownst to you.
Yea.
So she was I like your stuff.
Yeah, you do it right. She was my best friend. She was probably one the first people I told that I was gay at fourteen, before I told my entire family, and which was rough because I'm a son of immigrants, so my parents aren't from this country.
Where are they from?
Jamaican and Cuba, And the Jamaica's side is very you know, they're very homophobic. But I just knew I couldn't live my life without telling the truth. I'm somebody who just spits out my own truth. Hey, like I like you, no secrets, tell it all. And so she had a boyfriend that was a senior when we were a freshman, and she didn't want to lose a virgina to him and be bad, so she'd be bad in bed, be bad in bed. So she asked if I would practice
with her. And again at fourteen fifteen, it made sense, like, you know, I'm gay, but I can practice with you. I'm a male, so we can practice. And anything got me hard back then, like the breeze, the wind got me hard.
That's always something that comes up with men that we had sex with women before they came out. People like, how did you get an erection? I'm like, ah, any teenager can get in an direction, anything by.
A curtain, yeah, anything, you know what I mean. The beating of the music in the car, and all of a sudden, I was like aroused, and so we did it. It lasted, no joke, five seconds, and I sat on the edge of the bed, like pacing back and forth. It was like no, no, no, but I was just like I knew I did not want to do that ever again.
Was it sex?
It was obviously penetrated once or twice, and then was like I don't like this, don't like this, and I feel bad later in life I apologize because I'm like I ruined your first time. Like I'm on the bed of the side of the bed crying and you're like holding me and saying I'm so sorry, and I'm like, that's your first thing.
It's almost like you were in a threesome and you were the third person that got left out, sitting on the edge of the.
Bed exactly, and then she moved away. This is nineteen ninety five, so this before the internet. Like the things that we know today cell phones, so when someone moved, if you didn't have their home address or their home number, you couldn't you know, see him. And so I went
on with my life. And then when my son was nine, I got a stack of paper for back child support from the Attorney Generals of Texas office, and I thought I was being punked because that show Punk was on and I was on Real World back in the day, so I thought they were doing some like punked, you know d lists version, you know, like let's punk the
gay guy from Real World. And I was like, I don't have a freaking kid, threw the papers down, and then soon that night I realized I saw her name that I hadn't seen since I was fifteen, My name and then this kid's name, and then I went back to Texas where I'm from to find out if it's true, found out it was, and then petitioned for custody of him six months later, full custody, full custody because she was now twenty five with five kids, so she was drowning.
And so she had reached out for support to you right.
Who was she applied for benefits and the State of Texas found me because she put my name on the birth certificate without me knowing.
Oh okay, I see.
And so when I showed up on her doorsteps, she didn't even know that I was coming. And it's funny because I should have been angry, but I wasn't because the men I saw her, we were fifteen again, I know the broken home she came from, and so I just remembered us being kids, and so I just was like, we just started crying and laughing. And for the first thirty minutes that we reconnected, we didn't even talk about
the kid. Were like, we're just reconnecting. And then she was like, oh shit, your son's coming home in thirty minutes. Do you want to meet him?
But what prevented her from reaching out to you this whole time?
She said she didn't want to ruin my life, like her life was wrong.
Oh oh my god.
She was like she wanted We grew up extremely poor, and she was like she wanted want of us to make it, and so her idea was by me not having to deal with this, I would make it. And there's a lot of part to that that's true. I talk about this with my best friend Tray all the time.
Is that, like, I don't know if i'd be here if I had to have the responsibility of raising a child at fifteen, absolutely, you know, like I was afforded to go through high school, I was afford to go through college, I was afford to move to LA to kind of live my life. And then a child popped up. And don't get me wrong, I was still young, but now I had all the resources and enough knowledge to take care of him. But at fifteen, I mean, I don't think. I don't know if that could have screwed
me up totally. I might have went back in the clouse. I don't know, you know, I'd like, I don't know where my life would have been if she didn't make that decision. And so because of that decision, that's why I took custody, Because I said, I'm going to make your life easier in every way I can.
And was she okay with you taking custody for custody events.
Well, she was because of the fact that I made a promise to her that I would keep our family tight. So even for the first year and a half that I got him, I didn't move from Texas, even though I had my place in La I'd made sure that every day we were going back and forth so that
he felt connected. But then I realized there was a bigger plan because within that year, she has another son who because I worked as in social services, I was a safe placement and so instead of them moving all the kids into foster care, and so he came with me. And it was supposed to be for six weeks thirty six months, and somewhere at that year point of him being with me, he was doing better. He's going to therapy, his grades was great, and he called me dad because
he never knew his biological father. And I was like, oh, should I have two kids? And so I went to her and I was like, they're both doing good. Should I take custody of both? And she was like, thank you. And we've been a tight knit family. She comes, we're tight. We go back and forth and and you know, so, I'm like, you did it for me so I could be here, so I'm going to help you.
Wow, that's really beautiful.
So the lesson of this is every girl out there, sleep with your gay.
Bestie, that's right. I hope that they'll make it on queer eyes and then yeah, and I get.
Their own talk show.
Yeah, so how is that? I mean, what that responsibility coming on in such a burst. I mean, you don't really have a lot of time to prepare for that responsibility. So what what was it about it that made it so doable for you?
Well, it wasn't. I think I had this sort of blind delusion because my father was shitty and I knew that I didn't want to be him, so I sort of I went into this with sort of like a vengeance of I'm gonna show you you fuck her, I'm not like you and I and so if I'm being real with it, it wasn't that I was like I could be a dad. I just knew that I wasn't going to be him, and I wanted him to watch me be better than him. But in that process I
learned so much empathy, love, vulnerability. Like my kids saved my life because right before I'd met them, I was suicidal. I tried to kill myself two years before. My best friend, the same person is the one who found me. He was leaving for work and I just tried to do it and then on his he had a sense and came back and called the ambulance. So I was just having and it was all based on daddy issues, all
daddy issues, everything about my father hating me. You know, my dad was abusive to my mother my entire life, and when I told him I was gay, he literally from in high school because we lived together my mother finally divorced him. He would walk by me for weeks without saying a word. And now I know what type of emotional and mental abuse that is, but at the time it was just our household. He would literally be
standing in the kitchen. I would ask him questions to me, like talk to me, talk to me, and he would not because he was like, I don't want to talk to your fagot ass. And so I knew that I could be better than him when I became a father, and that was sort of the catalyst. I'm like, yeah, give me.
Kids, and what's your Have you had any contact with your father now?
Yeah, a couple of years ago, like six years ago, which I thought was the money and fame, but he hasn't answer or anything. Fingers crossed. He came to me later and was like, I'm so sorry for how I treated you. I reconciled my relationship with religion and my relationship with you, and I realized I should have put you first. I'm sorry for everything I did. Please give me a chance, and I had already give forgiven him
from years ago. I was like, I was like, you didn't know no better because your daddy didn't teach you any better, and you didn't know any better because you were hurting, And so I just I gave that up a long time ago, any hurt. And also I didn't want my kids to see me hating.
So I was called a cycle breaker.
That's book to cycle breaker.
Yeah, so I just opted and I was like, you welcomed me back in my life. Thing. Two boundaries I have is that you can never disrespect me in front of my children, because if you have a problem with who I'm dating or who I'm loving. And secondly, you're not able to teach any of my kids in your bad habits, So like if you're drinking or these things, and does I said, if you can respect those two things, you're fine. And he has not ever say anything bad. And when he gets around the suns, he is like
an angel. And my Mom's always like, that's all it took. Tokim a fucking angel with some boundaries on his ass.
I know better late than never, though, right.
I Mean, people can be such big disappointments in your life, but once they turn it around, it's like all is forgiven. I mean, if you're a healthy person who's able to forgive, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of people that can't. But forgiving is so good for you, it's so good.
Well that's why I did it earlier, because I realized when I was suicidal it was because I was holding onto all this anger with him, and I was like resenting him, and it made me sadder. And then I was like, I don't want to be here anymore because like what, I'm gonna end up being like him and like all this stuff. I had a boyfriend before, when I was in my twenties that we were in a physical, abusive relationship and anytime I got angry, I would hit him and it was you too, No, I was I
was a bully. I was my father. I was my father. And that sort of led me to that place of being depressed because I knew I was turning into him, and because it was the only model I have where I like, people would get mad and I would just go silent. I was just like literally turning into him. And I didn't realize until I forgave him and told myself, I have to work to be better. I have to work. I have to make conscious decisions to break this that
I would have I would have turned into him. And so you know, I'm glad I didn't.
No, I'm glad you did it too. What's your relationship status these days?
I'm single?
And are you available looking for a lover?
Oh?
No, you're not.
I am not.
How old are your kids now?
Twenty six and twenty four?
Shit?
Yeah, that is crazy.
I do not want a relationship. Why because they're trash? Well, I want everyone else to find love. I just don't want to.
Well that's normal for to go through phases where you're not interested.
Yeah, what, I've never been seing on my entire life.
Well, then that's why you need to be single.
That's it.
Yeah.
How long has it been.
That I've been single?
Mm hmm?
What two months?
Oh? Well that's not a lot of time.
I know.
I'm being patient and.
You're not getting penetrated at all. I'm sorry, or penetrating anyone. I don't know if you're a top bottom. Okay, Well, I can talk about your body that you're probably a top, a good top. But yeah, I've been able to now differentiate tops and bottoms. I'm like, oh yeah, well, I mean it's pretty obvious. Are you a top or bottom?
I don't know?
But also, why the fuck does it matter?
You know?
Why am I decided? It's not like you look at a heterosexual couple and be like, does she get on top? Like you don't think about that? It's so gay? Thank you. I'm just very curious. So how long do you think you'll go? How long? What's your plan to remain alone? Because I think it's very healthy to be okay by yourself. Everybody needs to learn that.
Yeah, my plan is hopefully a year or two. Oh, okay, that's the plan. You think I should go longer?
No, I think that's a long time. Yeah whatever, I mean.
I just I know, at least a year. But I'm my best friend. He thinks it should be at least to because I haven't been single, like and I slept with her. I got into a relationship with a boy, and got to another relationship with a boy and to
another one and they're all long term. I ended my relationship when I found out I was kids and then moved kids in and then during them I had a ten year relationship, broke up with him in twenty twenty, then got to another one two months later, broke up with him, and then got into the one I was with for three years.
But you must feel I would imagine being on a show like Queer Eye really lends itself to confirming your positivity about your gayness.
Oh yeah, I like being gay.
I mean right, yeah, but a validation.
I swear most people should try being gay once in their lives.
Most people do try one. Some people try a couple more of the time than once, and you're like, ah, you might actually be gay.
Yeah you're right. Yeah, but I love it and being on the show. Yeah, it just what it really does is like it helps. It feels so good to go into spaces where people might have reservations or like my father, not know how to reconcile their religion with their love of other people, and the fact that you can walk into spaces and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, we're all the same, yeah dummy, Yeah, of course we're
all the same. But sometimes it takes people a little bit longer, and so to be able to be on a show where you've just become that image that all people deserve respect and love and kindness feels good.
Yeah. I mean it's it's a good message, will and for it to be such a huge hit, for it to be in one so many Emmys and beyond for so many years, it's a big validation for gay people everywhere. Among the other cultural things that are happening. It's nice to see something like that be so successful.
Can I tell you a story that I want to share with you that you're never going to remember?
Oh fine, Oh, I already know I won't remember it.
It's actually a really good one.
Oh good, I love. Those are my favorites, only because.
You brought up the career I before was in television. Came to your house. This is twenty sixteen, fifteen you lived. I don't even know. I was bell are Yes with Charlie Ston's.
Mother, Juke Gerdad Yes, and her friend Keisha Knowles. Okay, I probably don't memembory these. You had a dinner party and they somehow let me come and I was there. You are very kind, You're nice, and you say, what are you doing? I said, I work in social services and he said, then you know, what do you really want to do? And I said, I really want to be a TV host and you looked me up and
down and said you're going to make it. And I was like, ah, I thought you're being sweet, and then you stopped and said, no, you're going to make it because you're thoughtful in your kind and I really believe in you, and you need to know me, and those type of things when you're a big celebrity to say to somebody who's on the come up, which is very kind. First of all, I was surprised you have me in your house.
Me too, oh, like, what the hell? And you have me in your house and you said the kindest things to me that night.
That's so nice.
Thank you for sharing that.
What really surprised me was to stop and like, no, I'm not saying this just to say this. I'm encouraging you in a very I.
Think it is very important, especially now that you're in
that position. It is very important to always see people and make sure that they know you saw them, because it really does make a difference in every person's life when they are being seen or when they are seen, you know, like and especially so much I feel this way about children, you know, when children are going through tough times or they just need one fucking person, not to become famous, but just to be to have like their back, to like I see you, I support you,
I've got your back, and I'll be here for you. It really is something that goes a long way, and as you can demonstrate by your memory.
It's meaningful, meaningful.
And I remember when people said things like that to me as well.
Yeah, because it's that extra pause, you know what I mean. I just think about leaving parents when they're busy, and we get it, but you're talking to your kids, you're doing stuff. But when you say, let me put down and let me be present, partners kids with a stranger, because that's what I will see, a stranger. And that's why the pause and saying no, you can make it meant something, because it was like, you don't know who the hell I am. You don't even know if I'm
good or not. But your encouragement in the pause was enough to say you can at least try. And I believe and so appreciate you have me over your house.
And she was right, Yeah, exactly the most important bar. Okay, I'm not We're going to take a break and we'll be right back to take some callers. And we're back. We are back.
We actually have some very juicy ones today.
I love juicy.
I love a juicy booty.
Did you see my big black dog, Beautiful.
I finally have a black man to come home to you every night, Doug.
It's a man. They were like, we have a black one, we have a blue one, and I'm like, you know what, so beautiful. Look at him?
He is.
What kind of dogs do you have?
German shepherd mix husky mix and a.
Blue healer, a blue healer, a lot of energy blue heeler.
Actually, she was abused for so many years, so she's so quiet and all she does is protect me. But the Shepherd husky mix though nightmare.
High energy, high energy.
Yeah, this is a fir. I haven't had a hire ANAJR dog in a while.
And I'm like take it. Yeah, okay, and we're back, Catherine.
What do we have, Well, we've got a shared custody situation with Zoe and McKenna.
There.
Zoey's the one writing in.
She says, Hi, my name is Zoe, I'm twenty two, and my friend's name is McKenna.
She's twenty three.
McKenna and I have been volunteering at a local animal shelter for five years now. We've also been roommates for two years. Once we got our own place, we met a pupp at the shelter and absolutely fell in love. We brought him home as a foster, but both of us knew we wouldn't be able to give him up. We adopted him and named him Billy. For two years, we've split all the vet bills, the adaption fee, other costs and responsibilities for Billy, and we both love him
very much. We knew we weren't going to be able to live together forever and plan to work something out when things changed, Well, things changed. I got a job in a city that's five hours away. Understandably, neither of us wants to part with Billy, and since I'm the one moving, I do see McKenna's point that it might be more fair for her to keep him. That said, she's moving back in with her parents, who already have two dogs, and is a full time student.
She's still a good.
Dog mom and would care for him, but her parents would share their responsibility and she has two dogs at home. My new job would be hybrid remote, so I'd be in the office two days a week and home the other five to spend time with Billy. I've also looked into doggie daycare and walkers. I'm kind of nervous about moving to a new city on my own and would
love to have Billy there with me. I expressed this to McKenna in conversation, and she brought up that since she signed the adoption papers, Billy is technically hers, so I can't take him. Since we're such good friends, I thought maybe there was a compromise to be made, as I was a bit taken aback, as this seemed harsh
to me, like it could strain our friendship. In hindsight, we should have had more discussion on different scenarios of custody when we adopted Billy, but we were excited to have a dog, and we both still love him so much. We're at a bit of a stalemate, looking for an outside opinion to help us move forward. Zoe and McKenna, Well, I.
Love couples counseling.
This is right. This is hi girl, Hi, Hello, where's Billy?
Billy is actually here?
Do you want to see you billy.
Me.
I really, I see why you could get very sweet, Ni Kada.
Where are you right now with your parents?
Yes, I'm actually at my parents right now because we're having like a little family vacation. We're leaving to Kelowna tomorrow.
So oh you're in Canada?
Yeah?
Oh, I love it. And so where did we move to? Which? Which city?
She's moving to? Vancouver?
Oh?
Okay.
So what do you feel like you're going to miss emotionally if you don't have this dog.
The support, Like, I feel like the emotional support. He's like my heart, my heart dog, my soul dog. And it's hard because we both love him so much.
But what is it that you need emotional support for what's going on in your life?
Just like school and life? And I actually I'm a dog walker, so I feel like my life works well with him, Like I am able to like take him out every day, and I am going back to school, but like I'll still have the time for him, and I always have prioritized him.
Would you feel like you need somebody to support you right now? You feel like you're feeling stressed overwhelmed?
Yeah, I mean I feel like I always have needed a dog, just because like I've never lived with a dog.
Mm hmmm, Okay, do you feel a strain on your friendship right now because of this issue with your dog?
I think we're doing a good job about like communicating about it and trying to like figure out what works best, but like, it definitely is hard to make that decision.
And when you found out initially that she was moving, were your thoughts immediately like, oh, I'll be keeping the dog because you are the one who signed the papers.
I mean, like, I think because it's been both of our responsibility and because we've both taken care of him, I don't really think it's fair to say that I get him because of the papers. But yeah, it's definitely hard to come to decision.
But you sign the papers, right, Yes, I did. And you said it's not fair now to say because you signed the papers that you don't get.
Him because we didn't really talk about it, like we never really had that discussion.
But didn't you use the papers as a way to say that's why you should keep the dog?
I mean yeah, but I also like feel bad because we are friends and like I don't have any hard feelings towards her, but it is But.
You said it. Yeah, you said I got the papers and it's mine.
Yeah.
Was making you want a backtrack right now. It's because you know that that statement might have hurt your friend and could have damaged your friendship.
Yeah, okay, Hizai, we were just getting some backstory from Makada. We were getting some backstory about the dog and Karama is a.
Question for you, So Zoe, when she said to you, I signed the papers, that's the bottom line. How did that make you feel?
Not great?
It was just kind of taken aback. That seemed too serious for our friendship. We've been friends for like ten years now, so that was kind of crazy. I thought we could kind of maybe discuss it or fine, maybe I could keep Billy till she's done school and then maybe reassess after a year. Just there was some I feel like there could be more solutions there. She only said at the one time. It hasn't really come.
Out An's apologetic.
No, I mean you want to get your friendship together. You guys want to maintain your friendship and figure out a solution. Can I ask you, Zoe, like, if you are moving to New City, what about getting another dog that is yours alone?
I've thought about that, but it's just like I, you know, I've known this dog for two years now, adopted him when he was a puppy. And and McKenna, I know she feels the same too though, but we both just have that connection with Billy. So either one of us for.
Both someone's going to be sad.
I think for a bit, right.
But is it a possibility for you to get another dog where you're moving?
I think it. I guess it could be a possibility. I would prefer Billy, don't want to just replace him like that, but it would be a possibility, I guess.
And what about you, McKenna, if you think about it, what about you rescuing another dog and having Billy live with her for a while. Would you be open to that or no?
I mean, yeah, I think i'd be open to I don't know, like same with like I just feel like it's so tough because, like it is, he has been in my life for the past two years, and it's really hard to just like it would feel like I was replacing him.
When you two lived together, Who's room did he sleep in?
Usually?
Mine? Okay?
Really?
Really he kind of switches enough sometimes.
Yeah, that makes sense. I have my verdict and I'm not a judge. Do we know? Do y'all know?
I'm just thinking about what kind of compromise can be made, and it doesn't seem like this is how I feel. You're moving. You're the one who's uprooting, right, So it is kind of not fair to assume that you get to take the dog because McKenna isn't the one that's leaving the situation. So I feel like it is tough because you did rescue the dog together, but you are the one that's changing where you live.
Yeah.
I do also want to ask, does Billy get along with your parents' dogs?
Yes? Yeah he does.
Okay, he's been around them quite a bit, so yeah, they get along super well.
I mean other than flipping a coin. What do you think, Caramo.
McKenna, you are the winner. Okay, you get the dog. I'm sorry. The thing is that it's all stacked in your favor. I'm a dog dad, just like you're a dog mom, and dogs will let you know who they want to sleep with. They will follow somebody around. The fact that he slept in your room was a big factor for me. But also on top of that, you also sign the papers. And then thirdly, like you said, Chelsea, Zoe,
you're unfortunately the one that's uprooting. And so at this point, as much as I want to say emotionally I would love for you to have that support, I think it's better for you to grieve the relationship with the dog so that you can strengthen the relationship with your best friend, because at the point right now, you two having this disagreement when you're all about to move is going to
cause dissension. And if y'all knowing each other since seven years old, the friendship is worth it more where you can see this dog in photos and then get your own dog versus you all going back and forth like this and you're losing something in that critical bond that makes you two so happy, you know, Like I'd rather you have mckennada talk to while you're moving and making this new transition in your life versus not having anyone closely to talk to because you feuded over a dog.
And I also just think this is a really good opportunity, Zoe, for you to get your own dog. Like I mean, I know Billy was your dog, I get it, but you're moving and like you're moving into a new city. It's a perfect thing. It's a perfect occupier of your time to rescue another dog. You don't have to get a puppy and put in all that work. You can go to a rescue and pick out a new dog, because that's going to help you be more social. It's going to help you to meet people, and it's going
to help you to feel safer in your house. And it's a great project, especially when you're new to a town and you don't know that many people. It's a great avenue. And I'm sure Billy is a comfort. But you've had all of this experience in the last two years of having a new dog, which is gearing you up to be ready for another new dog.
Yeah, Zolle, We're sorry. I wish we could side, we could tell you, but I know we love you.
We love you, Zoe.
I was just gonna say, you know, this will likely be forever, but not necessarily. You know, mckennay. You might move into an apartment a year or two from now where you're like, you know, I really want to live here, but they don't take dogs, you know, Zoe, is it it would be okay for you to take him, so you know, there could be something else down the line.
But I agree with Chelsea.
This is an opportunity for you to expand the amount of dogs that you're saving and dogs you have to give love to.
So I may think about how many dogs out there need homes, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, we also do work at a shelter together, So I.
Think I want to take with you to go Maybe we could go together.
Yeah, go together that I canna. I love that idea. Go together and find her her new dog, and then you can sign the paperwork on that dog too, McKenna, so that anytime you want the dog back and just take it.
Zoe, I'm gonna tell you learn from your friend McKenna signed the paperwork. Okay, it's about the paperwork.
Get those receipts, all right, girls, Thank you so much for calling in, and send us pics of your new dog when you get one.
Bye bye bye. First of all, good problem solving, Caroma, Like you've really handled that, because I wasn't going to go that far, but we really actually made a decision for them and now they have to stick to it. It's like they went to the people's court.
Well no, I mean Also, I'm pretty good at body language and I read it. It's something that I studied, and I could tell that McKenna's more anxious and has more of an anxious personality than Zoe does. And people with more anxious personalities normally do need compassion or and the companionship of a dog. So that's why I asked her where her emotional state was, because I can tell when Zoe came on she was smiling. Happy.
Yeah. Now that's a good point.
Yeah, really good point.
Yeah.
So this next email comes from Victoria.
She's going to join us as well.
Dear Chelsea, my life isn't a complete shit show, but like most people in the world, I do have a conundrum. I have two beautiful kids, a fiance, house, a job, a podcast, and a very active social life. No, I don't sleep. The only problem is I don't want to get married and I'd love to explore the bisexual side of myself. Sorry, not love to need to. I always knew I was bisexual, but I never explored it because I was never attracted to anyone in real.
Life until well after college.
I've hooked up with girlfriends here and there, but have never officially dated a woman first and foremost. I always knew I wanted to have kids, so now that I have them, I feel like I'm ready to fully explore that other side of me. Of course, the biggest hang up is my fiance. When I was in my twenties, I never had any issue breaking up with a significant other. As soon as I found something wrong, I'd cheat on them and start dating the person I cheated on them with.
It honestly was probably one of my biggest downfalls, but my dad taught me to never settle, and I took those words to heart. When I told my fiance that I'm bisexual, he said he didn't mind if he was involved, shock, and we hopped on the dating apps. A month later, I was pregnant with our second child, so that ended
abruptly and we haven't revisited it since. After I had the baby, we went to a friend's party a few months later, and I ended up cheating on him with a girl there while he was in the next room. I love my baby daddy a lot and care so much for his well being, but we started as platonic friends, and deep down, I feel like that's what he'll always be. We've discussed calling off the engagement many times, but men are so afraid of being alone. I feel like he's
guilted me into staying. Oh, I know you've never had this exact situation, but you're a witty, smarty pant, so I'd love to hear if you have any advice. Obviously, I need to move on and explore this other side of me, but navigating that road with all of the baggage is hard.
Victoria, Hi Victoria, Hi Victoria. Hey, this is our special guest.
Caramo Victoria. We just heard your story and there was a lot that you're in tourmoil over right now?
Yes, yeah, yes, for sure.
So I want to your father told you that you should never settle. Yeah, and what does that mean to you?
I don't know. I mean, obviously, I feel like most dads probably think that no one is ever going to be good enough for their daughter. But I don't know. He said it to me pretty young, and I just took it to heart.
And you know, do you think anybody's ever going to be good for you?
I guess in what way?
Okay, no, you laughed, Toby. What I need to know?
I mean, obviously good enough to have kids with, which is a big freaking deal. All right, yeah, yeah, But as far as like marriage and like a legal financial commitment to someone, like, to me, that's scarier than having kids with someone.
I hear you.
I hear you on that front, and I respect that.
I think that is I think that is also just a more contemporary way of looking at things.
Also thinking about not settling.
That is a good thing, and it can be a stupid thing, but I think overall it's a good thing to think that you have high value and that you're worth a lot. I mean, we should all be feeling that way about ourselves. It's pretty obvious that you want to explore women and you're attracted to women, and that the guy that you're having your children with isn't somebody that you're going to feel attracted to for a very
long time. So getting into a marriage under those pretenses doesn't sound like an honest thing to do, So why would you, you know, and putting off breaking up an engagement, like freeing yourself from a situation, is also freeing the
other person from the situation. Just because it's hurtful to them in the beginning doesn't mean you're not doing them a favor by living under this like false hope, you know, And so I would say to just be honest about where you are and that you're going to explore this
side of you. He can figure out how he wants to handle that, but he deserves the truth so that he can make an educated decision, Like if you guys want to co parent, which you're going to have to do for the rest of your lives anyway, Right, you want to have respect for each other and you want to be honest with each other, and this is one of those major first steps. And being honest and respectful towards the other person is by sharing your truth and
your desires, and they don't include marrying him. It doesn't sound like.
Yeah, yeah, it's just so tough. I don't know how to break it off because we have kids and house together.
But you don't necessarily have to break it off, like you can say, hey, here's how I'm feeling. This is the situation. Think about how this makes you feel and if you would be able to be in a relationship with me while I was exploring this side of me, And when you're not involved, it's not necessarily going to be a threesome. Every time I'm interested in women. You know, maybe there's a guarantee of saying like I'm not going to be with men. You know, I'll tell you if
that happens, it'll just be women. And that's what I'm looking to explore. I understand if you're not down with that, but I have to be honest out of respect for our relationship, and I think you'll probably get a bit of a different result than you're expecting.
I don't know he I mean, he definitely. I don't know if he'd want to stay with me and let me go off and explore, because I've already tried to do that and it didn't work out really well. So I know for him it'll be better for him in the long run just to cut it off kind of as soon as possible, because there are other reasons why I feel like it's not going to work out, but this is one where he can't change. There's nothing he can do in this situation. It's kind of like something
I have to do for myself. It's not like he did something stupid. I forgive him and we move past it. So I know in the long run it'll be better for him and he can go find someone he'll be happy with But it's just so hard because we have been best friends for such a long time.
I think for you, because I agree with Chelsea. I agree everything she just said about the communication in this relationship, and I also believe that marriage shouldn't be for everyone. Like I used to be so gung ho on marriage and now I'm like, girl, you don't need that, Like that is so foolish. But what I'm most concerned with when it comes to you is that I think you're going to repeat this pattern whether you're with him or not.
And the reason I'm saying that is because I'm watching you how you're rubbing your head every moment, saying this is hard, this is hard. That being hard is about something that's going on inside of you, and it started when your father's told you not to settle. And there's something that is lingering within you. Why you're not making choices or communicating about what you truly need and want.
And now you're getting stuck into these relationships where you know you're not happy, and then you feel like it's hard to break it off for them, But really what's hard, it's that you're not willing to face what's really going on. In your heart sound a little right, Yeah, for sure.
Definitely in this situation. When I was in my twenties and I found something wrong with a guy at break up with them, no problem, but with kids involved, and since I have you know, I've been best friends with him forever. Like I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, you know, you should be best friends with someone for ten years and then date them, like
your relationship will last so much longer. But for me, I feel like it's so much harder for me to break it off because we are such great friends and we've had years and memories.
Yeah, but that's why he deserves your honesty.
Do you know what I'm saying? This isn't about being hard or difficult. This is life. You're an adult, you have children, You're gonna have a lot of decisions that are hard or difficult, and the way to actually act with integrity is to face those difficult situations with as
much honesty and grace as you can. And by avoiding it, you're putting your own happiness on the side, and you're actually doing the same to your partner because you're not being truthful to him and you're not as happy as you would be if you were free to roam around and pursue what you're more interested in pursuing, and there's
nothing wrong with that. So you have a family, So there are many ways that this can resolve, Like he can agree to say okay, I will let you go and explore, or you can say no, this is like I'm not going to be comfortable with that, and you're like, Okay, we've been friends for this many years. We're going to make sure we're going to be friends for the rest of our lives because we have children and we're going to co parent. And what's Gwyneth Paltrow's favorite couple consciously unscious,
consciously a couple. But don't be a pussy about it, because then you're just you're creating problems for everybody, including your children, because what they're going to see modeled for them is going to be you less than happy, or you holding secrets and him less than happy. And you don't want to expose your children to that. Anyway, you guys could have a great friendship for the rest of your life, and that would be more healthy for your children to see than a marriage that isn't truthful.
Yeah, but there's something you need to face about yourself. I'm gonna keep telling you, and you're gonna get off this call because Chelsea is telling you how to handle the present situation perfectly. But what you're missing is you need to handle something within you. And I'm seeing it even as I ask you these things about you. You keep going back to kids, you keep going back to him, you keep going back to best friends, and you're not
focused on you. There's something going on in you while you're repeating this pattern and while you're making this choice and why this is hard, there's something. Because it's really not that hard for you to communicate everything Chelsea's telling you do. You've already told him, you already tol him, I want to do this. He called you in the bedroom with somebody else, So you really have no issue with all that stuff. And there goes a smile, so
you know that's true. You have no issue in communicating what you want. But there's some fear that's inside of you that you're not tackling. And I'm telling you, if we dissect what you said your father told you young, that you were still repeating to yourself whatever narrative he told you, you've turned into something way different, that it's causing fear, anxiousness, anxiety in you, that it is causing you not to be who you need to be for yourself,
and it's now lingering into all these other relationships. If I had about another thirty minutes with you, we can figure that thing out.
But we can't listen all right, Montel Williams, listen to him, he's like fucking lefts.
Go okay, listen, do that soul searching.
I think you gotta, yeah, you got, and you got to like face up to these difficult situations. I know it's hard, but you want to get some pussy, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know what I mean, Like, what are you gonna do? Put your needs on hold? You're putting someone's needs on hold at every point, you know what I mean. And that's okay in certain circumstances, but not for life decisions like this. And also you're
not married, so that's a huge advantage too. You don't have to get divorced.
Right, Still complicated, but it's less complicated. And you know, I kind of keep coming back to what Chelsea is saying, like you're wasting his time. But you're also wasting your time?
She is, Yeah, for sure. I feel like I just need to put the hammer down and have like a more serious conversation with him because I have said, like, I want to break up with you for X Y reason like and he's just like no, no, like let's work it out, like he's pushing really hard to stay together, and I feel like I just need to be like no.
Or Also, it's not that you have to break up in this moment, but you have to say I want to go pursue women, not with you. I'm interested in experimenting and seeing what's at there and I need the time to do that. If you're okay with doing that, great, If you're not, we need to talk about breaking up.
Yeah.
Are you afraid of being alone?
No, I'm not being alone. I just I don't know. I know you're gonna yell at me for bringing up my kids again. No, I just picture like the kids if we move, if we move out, like I move out or he moves out, whatever, our four year old is definitely gonna be like, where's daddy, where's mommy? When are they coming back?
So you're afraid of disappointing your family?
No?
See, I gotta figure it. There's some fear there, I'm telling you, even when she just said again, I'm gonna put that's.
It's natural to want to not disappoint your four year old, But that's not a good reason either, Like aour year olds are resilient. Well, right, I hear what you're saying. But four year olds are resilient. People get divorced, They split up all the fucking time. Yes, there is a deeper issue within you that you're not able to face your problems in a way that is solution oriented. You know, there are a million solutions here, and you're just kind of leaning into just letting the status quo be the
status quo and not making any move. You have to make a move, yeah, for sure, And especially with the warning like this, especially with saying, hey, I'm going to experiment with women. I'm curious about women. If you can't handle that, then we need to talk about splitting up. If he says he can handle that, then that gets you six months okay, And in six months time you're going to really know if that's who you want to be with, if you want to be with a woman.
And then he's already had his serious talk and conversation, and then it's not coming out of the blue, like he can choose to stick around while you're experimenting with women that might make you even more turned on to him. I don't know what's going to happen with all of this. You don't know if you really want to be with women, if you're just bisexual or whatever. So you know you should give it like six months and just say, hey, I want to be as open and honest with you
as possible about what I'm feeling and thinking about. And there's no argument with that. There's nothing he can say. You can't start. I don't want you thinking about women, Like, come on, you know there's nothing he can say about that other than I will tolerate this or I won't. And if he ends up moving out and your four year old ends up having to go between homes, your four year old will forget that you guys were together
within six months. How that's how resilient children are at They won't even remember.
Yeah, two happy homes is way better than one unhappy home where mom and dad are not really living their truth.
Yeah for sure.
Okay, and then you know, you get to split custody and you have time to go date.
By the way, no one advertises that enough. When you split up with someone, the free time you get away from your kids should be like a banner for divorce, like you get a life again, you know, and then you can get all the pussy you want.
Oh my god. Alrighty okay, Victoria, all.
Right, Victoria. I hope you liked getting yelled at today.
I appreciate it. I need it. I need it.
Okay, good, good, Okay, keep us posted. Thanks, thank you. He's trying to get to the bottom of the he's like trying to get a deeper issue. That's the longer. That's like a fucking.
Four hour it is for me. It's just that when anytime I hear somebody's problems, this is for any problem. There's always something more. If any problem starts with I, it's I, I I. And so she can say about kids and all that. I'm a parent, I know all this. It's about you. And the thing that the reason I want people to understand, and this is for anybody listening. We say things to ourselves that we get our childhood, and we repeat them and they become bigger mountains in
our heads. And that one about what her father said. She didn't need to write that in that's something that Scott said to you. And now it's plaguing you, and it's playing with your mind, and it's playing with how you see your world, how you see yourself, value, how you see And she's not focusing on that. She's like, oh, some mine want pleasing. It's not about that, you want to pu you already your man already cast you in the next bed with somebody else.
I just wish everybody would fucking get some balls and leave a situation when they are not happy in the situation.
That's what I'm saying. There's something, there's a fear she.
Has, Yeah, but everybody has fears, everybody has everything. So like, yes, if you're a therapist, you have to get down to that, you know, the granular level and find out what the deal is. But if it's a problem that she's dealing with, well it's a result of that. But it's also like, okay, let's figure out this situation. Yeah, because even when you give her the advice, the answer she wants, she's still like yeah, yeah.
Because she's not there. She's not ready to face it. Yeah, she's not ready to face it, and that's all. I was like, we could tell you all goddamn dataly this guy and be honest with them, and you know whatever. But she's she's going to repeat this pattern right after this. Even if she gets out of this, it's gonna happen again. She said she's been doing it at different degrees since college.
I also wish people would just fucking make moves. Make moves like you have no idea how big and broad your life can be when you have the courage to say this isn't working for me, you know. And I know that's easy for me to say because I don't have children and I'm not married. But there are reasons I don't have children and I'm not married so that I make fucking make moves. Okay, I'm not. We're going to take a break and we'll be right back and we're back.
Well, our next caller is John is twenty three and promo, you're sober right me?
Yes, Fish sounds like it sounds ish ish, sounds like.
I just don't like hard liquors. I don't don't. I'll drink it like a beer.
Okay, all right, Well, John says, dear Chelsea, I'm a twenty three year old accountant who's been looking for inspiration in my sometimes boring life. I turned to ayahuasca and psychedelics for some more insight and life guidance. And while the first many times were great, I had my first horrible trip.
For six hours straight.
I felt like I was in hell, strapped to a rocket, being blasted by colorful geometry and scary entities that laughed at how scared I was. Needless to say, I will never be doing them again, and I'm committed to sobriety. I'm focusing on gratitude that I'm what.
Drug was this? Iowa?
Oh?
Hello?
But he says he's done five DM eot yeah and all that stuff. Okay, I'm focusing on gratitude and then I'm back and safe. And I didn't think I was going to come back from that house. But I'm lost as to how to move on from this. How do I interpret such an awful time? How should I go about leaving this behind me? I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
John, Hi, John, this is Karma. We have a special guest today. Hello Karama.
I've seen your show soank you appreciate it, love it a lot thank you.
Okay, So you had a terrible ayahuasca experience.
Yes, it was not.
I'd like gotten some stuff from some friends and yeah, it just wasn't like it was tough. But I feel like it's like helped me become like a lot more grateful for a lot of different things.
Well, that's not nothing.
Have you ever done ayahuasca?
Yeah, I did a special on it on Netflix where you can see me do ayahuasca. But first of all, that's a great gift that you got from it. Being more grateful and having more gratitude is already like a net plus. So you're acting like it was a terrible experience across the board, but you got something good out of it. So I think you should have gratitude for the gratitude. Yeah, and I definitely do.
I think like for me, it just kind of has helped me realize I do kind of want to venture more into sobriety and just being more in tune with that. Might've had a lot of problems with like alcohol and just things like that throughout my life and then that kind of like just scared me away from everything in a lot of ways.
That's good, but these are all good things. You're looking at this as a negative and how to move past it. These are good things. You're becoming more sober and you're saying drugs and alcohol are a problem in your life. Great, you are more grateful, Great, Like, these are good things that came out of ayahuasca.
You're not looking at it from the right lens. I don't think.
Are you afraid you're gonna lose friends? What's the hesitation? Then?
Now? Oh?
I think it was just it was genuinely like a horrible experience. I keep like going back to it thinking, I don't know, like I have kind of a lot of guilt about it, just because I'd done other things and I like.
Thought it was what was horrible the visuals?
Well, I remember how you Chelsea had said like you had done five meo and you just felt like it was like really like a tough visual experience, And that was definitely how I was feeling too. But it was also like the aspect of it just felt like very sinister, and I was not used to that either, Like at one point i'd like become like a cancer patient in
a hospital. I just had this horrible feeling and all I could think of was it was like this voice telling me, like, there are so many other people out there that feel like this way all the time, and you need to be more grateful for what you're going through and things might be kind of boring or like tough in your life, but it was still just that like horrible, you know, feeling that like I'll never really be able to shake kind of it's just kind of
I guess, really just being more grateful about my life in generals kind of what I got out of it, I guess.
But have you ever done AMDR therapy?
I have never done that.
Now, Okay, well that's a really good thing because that really focuses on a traumatic event that is bothering you, and then you live through that event again without having the same feelings that you had the first time. It's like electro I forget what it stands for, electromagnetic whatever, AMDT, AMDR AMDR movement desensitization and repass. Good, there we go, And Okay, so you could go to a therapist and
do that and work specifically on that. And the other thing I would say is that sinister vibe and all of those things you're feeling you can look at as a representation of what your life would have become had you continued using drugs and alcohol.
H Okay, that's fair.
That is a good wake up call, and you should look at it and frame it in your mind like, oh, that was what I would have become if I hadn't woken up.
Agreed.
Okay, Yeah, that's a good way to look at.
It, because you're moving forward in a new way.
That's the past. It happened, it woke you up, and you're moving forward. There's no reason to let that experience haunt you. If anything, it turns the corner for you in a very positive way. Yeah, for sure, I see that too.
I think it's just like still kind of the struggle of regular living, and you know, I still kind of want to go back to it a little bit, But then I do like it is kind of a nice toolbox.
So you don't trust yourself that you will make this decision and stay on this.
Path, I think I will, think.
But you're struggling. There's a bit of you that doesn't trust yourself. I could see it in the hesitation and how you just put your head up.
I know, but I trust you. I trust you too, and I think that that situation is your reminder to trust yourself to stay on the right path. It is that situation is going to be useful tool for you moving forward in life. When you are tempted to get back into drugs and alcohol, you need to look at that and be like, I don't ever want to feel that way again. And that was your wake up call, and that was your warning call, and I trust that you will move forward in the right way.
Okay, I know I will for sure. Thank you for saying that. That's kind of sense as the deal.
So okay, great, then let's end this conversation here.
You got it right, you got this, Thanks John.
Okay, bye John, Bye, guys. Well this was beautiful. You were great. I mean you are. You're Montel Williams for sure. We're across between doctor Phil Montell and who's the other guy, Jerry Springer. No Springer, that's too trashy. I like how you get to the heat of the d You're like, what is really going on? I'm like, we don't have time for that. We don't fucking have time for what's really going on. We have to take another caller. No, you're a delight. Thank you so much for being here.
I'm so glad you've been in both of my LA homes.
I know, excited.
We'll have to get you to more.
I would love to love that.
Thanks Carramo. You can watch him on his show, which is a national syndicated talk show on during the day different times, but it's called Carramo and also on Queer Eye.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you.
I was just kissing into the microphone. Goodbye everybody. Okay, So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My first three dates in Vegas are September first, Labor Day weekend, and
then November two and November thirtieth. I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout the end of the year in December, so if you're in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans.
Or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Okay, if you'd like advice from Chelsea shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number.
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And engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com