Chelsea Handler on We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle

talk about that breakup publicly for the first time. This conversation with her is well, it just changed my heart. It's a lesson in how to love and how to let go and how not to abandon yourself. Chelsea Handler, let me start your podcast for you today, busy. What's up? Hi? Um, I love you, I love you on the podcast Amanda. Um,

I just wanted to say you guys. Uh, you know I we have been trying to schedule this for months for me to come on, and I was going to come on with my my boyfriend who's now my ex boyfriend, Joe Coy and uh, I was scheduled and because Glennon and I have a very beautiful honest history together. Uh. When we were scheduled, we were having some issues and I texted her and said, I don't think this is a good time for us to come on and be

representing relationships or couples or anything. You know, We're gonna head to some therapy and try and sort this out. And and now here I am alone. Uh, And I just publicly announced that Joe Coy and I are, you know, going our separate ways, and I can't couldn't be happier to be spending this morning with all three of you. I feel the exact same way I wish I was actually just on your couch right now, but this will do my lab. I wish you were on my lab

right now. Same just just holding me like a baby, That's what I wish. That's what I wish, a reverse babyhold. That's how I feel right now. I mean, I just I love you so big and have for so long, and I just, um, I'm grateful to be with you this morning. I can't believe that it worked this way, but it's the universe working all of us together at the same time. So yes, yes, here I am, and uh, yeah, here we all are. How are you right? Now in this moment, I'm I'm okay. I mean, I feel, you know,

optimistic about the future. Now. I've changed so much and I've loved my love was like so big that it just blew me open. And as painful as the ending of something like that is, I'm I'm oh well versed in therapy and understanding that every door shutting is a new beginning, and I do believe it. I don't think

that's horseshit. I think that when you have the the grounding and the courage to say you know that something isn't working, you're saying a lot more than that to the whole world, you know, and you're inviting in things that are going to be workable and more um suited

to your needs and what what you're available for. And so I'm I'm really happy to be handling a breakup in an honest way for the first time in my life, you know, instead of you know, distracting, deflecting, and and and doing all these things to be like I'm I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, And then you know, the delayed grief hits you three or four months later, and you're on your knees and you haven't really dealt with anything.

And in this instance, uh, you know, this has been happening for some time with us, and I've been dealing with it in real time in therapy, out of therapy, with my girlfriends, with all my support systems, knowing that when you where you're in pain, to sit with it, not to go away or take an edible, even though I always love edibles, um you know, not to not to try to numb your pain. Is what I've learned.

That is the best way to get through grief in a real, responsible way and in a healthy way where it's not going to come and sneak up on you later, you know, because as anyone who's listening knows, when you're in a relationship um or you break up from a love relationship, it is an emotional roller coaster. And one day you think you're killing it and the next day

you are not killing it. And that is now like the understanding of those emotions that they're coming, like Okay, you're feeling strong now, just wait, something's around the corner. And conversely that that's true, so uh, I'm much more. I have my tool kit now and that's the most invaluable thing that I forgot from Dr Dan Siegel is my tool kit and he made me a like an actualized self aware of person and being. You know, having the gift of self awareness has been the biggest gift

that I've been given in this life. What's in your toolkit that you're going to pull out today? Because this is like day one? Well we have dealing with this behind the scenes for a while, so but yes it's publicly day one. Um, what's in my tool kit? You know? I meditate. I read a lot, you know, especially when I want to go to the TV to just kind of zone out. I don't. I well, I do sometimes, but I you know, in times like this, uh, you know, I read stuff that I know is going to help me.

I like, I listened to things that I think are going to help me, and I'm I I allowed the time for reflection, you know, like sitting in my backyard and looking at the trees and thinking about everything that has transpired and all the good things that I got out of this and all the greatness it inspired, and so many other people, all the people that would come running up to us on the streets of New York City or Memphis or wherever we were being like, we

want your love, we want your love, you know. Like that made me believe in so much. It made me believe that there is somebody for everybody. And I still believe that. You know, my person is coming, and whether that is Joe koy In, you know, at a certain time, or if it's not, like I accept that I don't, I'm not, you know, in that immature mode where I need to know the answers. I mean, we all want to know when we're breaking up what the answers are.

But you know, that's part of the unknowings as to that's part of the maturity is to be sit in the unknowing and and still function and and just go, yeah, this is where I am right now. Nothing is breaking me. How did you know? This is a question that I think about all the time, work with work with relationships, with every thing. How do you know? How did you

know when it was time to stop digging? Because it's like hard to know when to dig deeper in a relationship and when to quit digging, like when a relationship is the right kind of heart or the wrong kind of heart. I think when you know it becomes untenable and it becomes unhealthy, Like if you're arguing, you know, it's devolving. If you can't have conversations that are calm and loving and constant, and you're not a team, you're not feeling like a team, and then it's becomes untenable.

People are are open sometimes in their lives and sometimes they're really closed off, and a lot of people it's not a fun job to do the work of looking inward, like we all know that it's ugly. And if someone had told me before I went to therapy, hey, you're gonna be going, you know, to this guy for two years, two or three times a week and fucking crying every single day for two hours and feeling like, you know, a lunatic and out of control and unspooled and all

of this thing. I would have been like, no way am I doing that. I don't have time to feel that bad about myself. And so it's not an attractive endeavor for many people, And especially when you're pain and your trauma is right here. I understand the wanting to avoid that, the avoidance of wanting to look in with that, and I think, you know, I'm at a place in my life that I have to be with somebody who's where I'm at with that. And you know that's not

to say anything about Joe Koy. I love him and he's on his own path, and you know, I just that's that's what I need as a human being. I had to have a conversation with myself about how much, you know, like not, I wasn't going to abandon myself, you know, and if I have to choose one person, I have to choose myself. Yeah. Yeah, So is that the wrong kind of heart is when you stay in something, when you choose the thing and you abandon yourself for

that thing. Yeah, when you choose to lower your standards, your expectations when you're it's nice to twist and move for somebody, you know what I mean, It's nice to be bendable. Because I used to be so intransigent in my relationships. My opinions were fully formed. I knew it was right, everybody was wrong. If you disagreed with me, you didn't know what you were talking about until you agreed with me, and then I could explain to you some more truths, like let me explain what's going on

in the world, Do you know what I mean? Like that attitude when you need to be right is always when you're wrong. You know when you need to be right. And so I think when you're not communicating in a loving way and that becomes a regular thing, then you have to call it out of love and respect for both of you. You can't continue like that, and I don't and you so so, Like I said, it's nice to bend for people. It's nice to learn how to compromise.

It's nice to be able to demonstrate my love publicly. That was something I was never able to do for anybody, but I I believe Joe needed that, you know, And it was part for that, partly for that, and partly for our fans because of the reaction we got when we got together. That warmed my heart so much. And I was like, oh god, I'm gonna make everybody fall in love, like I'm gonna find a I'm gonna find a lid for every pot, you know. And I was so inspired by our us. I know, like, if you

cracked me open, I can. But you know, Joe didn't crack me open. My psychiatrists cracked me open, and then I was open, and then I was able to bend for somebody and move and compromise and make them the biggest part of my life. But you you can't change somebody, you know, intrinsically, and and so I was willing to do so much bending, but that there's a line. And I'm very proud of myself because I didn't let myself

cross that line. You know, it's such a freaking it's such a it's a love lesson and as just as inspiring, if not more inspiring than like I found a lid for my pot, Like I'm not changing my pot. What do you mean when you say you're psychiatrist? Broke you open? Well, he opened me. You know, I had all these stipulations, all this protective gear about, you know, protecting myself against men because of my history, because of my brother passing away when I was a little girl, and my father

retreating emotionally psychologically afterward. He could never get past my brother dying. He just was never the same. So there was like an abandonment, you know, on both fronts. And because of that trauma, I layered and wrapped myself up in this bitch like fuck you, if especially if you're a man, back the funk up, because I'm going to tell you what to do, and I'm not gonna need

anything from you. You know. Financial independence was like always like never ever, ever, ever rely on anyone but yourself, you know, like this, I had to grow myself up when I was a little girl. And we've all had our ship. And anyone who pretends that there haven't been through ship, then come to my house and I'll show you some ship, you know what I mean. Like it's bullshit, But um uh, I think that Dan. He took my

judgments and he just broke them apart. Like when I would say, oh, I can't go out with this guy because of this, or I couldn't go out with Joe Koy because he drove a white Ferrari, I'm like, I've been there, done that, Okay, already went out with fifty cent. I don't need a fucking white Ferrari in my life. It's embarrassing for me to get out of a white Ferrari. Okay, why not have proud A written right on the side of it, you know, Like I couldn't like stuff like that.

That was not a deal breaker or not a real non negotiable, but I had made it one. You know. I once went on a date with a guy who wore an air May's belt that I hadn't seen because he was seated when I arrived and when we got but when he got up to go to the bathroom, Oh no, he got up when I got there, and I saw it. And when he got up to go to the bathroom, like forty five minutes later, I got my purse and walked back to the door. I was like, what I was like, is this guy fucking for real?

First of all, he was wearing cologne and an air Mas belt, So I was like, this is a no brainer. There's no way any penetration could ever happen with this man, no matter how many showers he took after back alone or how many other belts he had. Right, you would have had to abandon yourself. Yeah, I would have exactly, Yeah, a different sort of abandoning, but um but yes, No, Dan really just made me look at myself and like, what are all these protections about? You know, why do

you think that you don't need a man? Why do you think that you don't need a partner? Why do you why? I'm like, because I'm happy. But it was a defense, you know, It was like now I know, Oh, and added it like, as long as it's an addition, you know, no one's to subtract from what I've built for myself, from my family, from my friends, from the

love and that I've surrounded myself with. Like my friendships are so deep now, they're real, you know, they're not based on bullshit or convenience or me having a talk show and having to have fake friendships with a million people. It's it's not like that anymore. Like everything is authentic, And if you're my friend, it's because I love you, and it's because you've shown me love as well. And and I've just I mean, he he really made me understand all the barriers I had around me, and I

was able to pick that apart slowly. And then with Joe Koy, he just kept showing up and showing up and showing up, and I capitulated because I fell for him and I fell in love with him because he has so many amazing qualities, and I realized how how what that can be, what what a partnership can be. Like Whereas I used to eschew like, oh I'm not you know, like I don't want to wake up with

somebody in my space. I mean like you two with your videos all the time, like the day when you were just like I hate everything, I'm sad all the time. I'm like, God, Abby does not miss a fucking beat with this camera, like you know, and I'm like, oh, I thought that that would gross me out, to have someone in my space so much and to be connected to someone so much that our dinners were always going to be together, or every vacation was was going to

be together. And I learned now that I love that, Like I love the togetherness, you know, with the right person and the right chemistry, like and the healthiness of it, Like that is something that I am going to look for again. How did this particular relationship change you? Because it's such an interesting paradigm we have set up for women, which is like, if the only victory is a fappily ever after, forever and ever, if we set that bullshit up, and then what is the inverse of that? A failure

is a breakup? But actually any relationship that changes you to the point that you look like this has changed you in terms of like being broken open in a beautiful, illuminating way. Yeah, it feels like great success to me. So what how has this particular one changed you. Well, I think you know my heart is not closing because we're breaking up. That's one way I'm not like, oh god, I'm done with men, you know. I mean I joked with you yesterday texting that you know, I'm one step

closer to becoming a lesbian. We can buy, but that better isn't with the demonstration of men in their behavior the last five years is a mass exodus of adults on set lesbians. I'm happening. Let's be honest. Everyone is considering it. So people who are not naturally have no predilection towards women are like I could do that, yeah, but how he changed me? You know, his vibe, his energy,

he like injected that. He has an infectious way about him, and he's up and upbeat, and you know, he gives everybody hugs all the time, which annoys the ship out of me because he tells everybody he meets, I love you, and I had, you know, I had to start saying that to my people I work at my house, whether it's the pool guy, the landscaper, my housekeeper, who I do love because we've been together for like sixteen years.

But like I was telling the Pool guy that I loved him at the end of our relationship, like, oh, like, I love you, and then I'm like, if I don't do it, I'm like a big fucking gun, you know what I mean. After Joe's hugging everybody, so I was hugging everybody, and and he's changed me in that way. I mean, I'm not going to continue hugging everybody. That's too much. And that's just too much. I mean, I don't mind hugging, but like it's much better than a handshake.

That's gross at this point. Um, but I don't need to be telling everybody I love them. I can give love without you know, there are things that he injected into me that made me just realized, like my stoke for stand up, you know, came back. My desire and my ambition is back, Whereas I was kind of for a couple of years like who gives a shit about all of this? I was so judgmental about myself and my participation in Hollywood, in my identity as a famous

person and what did that mean? And how empty was that? You know? All as a result of therapy where you start to analyze what what's your motivation and are you okay with your identity being completely tied to being a celebrity, Like what does that mean about you? And is that

all you've got? The self realization of everything made me kind of be picked out by ambition, by working, by by by putting my nose down or my head down and doing kind of hard the hard stuff, you know, like going back to stand up after I had left it for so many years. I mean I did that before Joe, but like he reinvigorated my love for it. He just directed my special that I shot in Nashville,

the Rhyman. He really changed the way that I view work, which is great for me because I'm ready for like you know, I'm back in it now and I'm into it and for the right reasons, not for the motivation that I was questioning earlier. Do you think that those were defense mechanisms too, Like if you don't let people in because you can be jaded and you can keep them out from touching you. With the same apply for your love for your work. If you say like, oh

this is this doesn't mean anything. I mean if you allow it in, does that actually let you love your work again? Do you think think I think there's a. I mean there's a big you know, I'm so much more present than I used to be. I used to get on stage, have a couple of drinks to be like, fuck,

when is this going to be over? Like, you know, not respecting the fact that people are there spending money on me, you know, just kind of collecting, collecting all my good stuff and not really respecting the people that are there. You know, now I go on stage, my stand up has never been sharper. I'm always like strong, I'm clear headed, I have a clarity that I haven't had and so long. And yeah, yeah, it's taking things

for granted. You know, when you're not able to look at yourself, you're not able to look at your motivations and what's behind everything. And you know, in this business especially, it can get pretty confusing if you're not centered and grounded and constantly reminding yourself that you're just you're just a human being. This isn't at all. This does not define you. It is a part of who you are, it is not all of who you are. So you're you um announced this yesterday? First of all, what made

you announce the break up last night? Like, did you have a moment where you're like, all right, this is it? Like, how did you decide that it was the right time. Well, my publicist called and outlets were calling and asking. It was getting leaked by people, So, uh, we split up about a month ago, and it's like, I figured we could just reconvene when we all when everything kind of

cooled down, and I just figured it was time. You know, he's got a big movie coming out, and I did not want him to be standing on the red carpet answering questions about me in his big moment. And you know, Joe pretty much takes my lead on things, so I thought I better get ahead of it, not ahead of it, and I just better meet the moment and you know, actually tell everybody how I really feel instead of ignoring it. I hate that, you know. I mean, it's been such

a public relationship. It would be silly to pretend it didn't happen. Do you mind if I read a little bit of it? No, okay, because I just think that I just want to talk to you about the beauty of this actual announcement because it's like a love letter and I think it's it will it's going to teach so many people how to do this in a way that is both powerful and beautiful and is a victory. M Um, Okay, here it goes. I'm not a crier, but this one might sneak through my lexapro Okay, okay, Oh,

yes you do, Yes, you do, I can hook you up. Okay. In anticipation of celebrating our first year together, Joe and I recorded this video early, but as many of you have noticed, is with a heavy heart we announced that we have decided together that it is best for us to take a break from our relationship right now. I know many of you were invested in our love, and I wanted to express to you how much that meant to both of us, how much it still means, and how much I now believe in love for each one

of us. This man blew my heart open with love, and because of him, my life experience has changed forever. To be loved and adored by Joe Coy has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. He renewed my faith in men and love in being one who I am, and I've never been more optimistic for the future. Joe, you blew my creativity open, my lust for working hard again being on the road again, and you reminded me who I was and always have been. And my feet

have never been more firmly planted in the ground. This is not an ending, it's another beginning. And it's a comfort to know that I am still loved and love this man the way the sun loves the moon and the moon loves the sun. Your person is coming, so please continue to root for both of us because you never know what life will bring. I mean, kindness, generosity, respect, leadership, a script, just try to move ahead. And like, what, so,

what what were you going for there? I was just going for putting out love, you know, Like I think, when you're in pain, the most important thing you could do is just love out, give it away, you know, just love it out. And when someone else is in pain, I needed to just give him love. And and you know, you process this differently as a man and a woman, obviously, um and I really thought he needed to hear those things, and I really thought I needed to say them, you know.

So everyone knows that it wasn't like, you know, someone cheated or anything like that. It just didn't work out. And I did everything I could to try to make it work. But it didn't work out, and I wanted to make sure that everybody knew that this is this is a different me, Like this is how uh, this is the first time that I've ended a relationship where I feel like an adult, you know, um and where it's it's because it was the mature thing to do.

Um And Yeah, what you were saying before is like, when do you know when it's time to get out of a relationship? We always know, you just to keep

running dialogues in our head to convince ourselves otherwise. But when you know, you know, it's like any any other intuition you have, you have to like close your eyes and listen to your gut and understand that sometimes the pain that you're going to go through for a breakup is going to be it's going to be much more uh preferable than remaining in something that isn't working anymore. That's right. It's the right kind of hard, as opposed to the wrong kind of hard, which is just a

slow dying. Yeah, and it's slowed, yes, a dying of yourself, an abandoning of yourself of you know. Of I think of myself as as someone who likes to set an example for other women and young women especially to be true to who you are and to to do the work that isn't pretty, and you know, like the benefits are they're always and it's like a I was talking to my friend. I don't know if you guys know

who Laura Lynn Jackson is. She's yeah, yeah, yeah. I was talking to Laura yesterday, who's awesome, and she was like, you know, she told me to do something that I really did not want to do, and she's like, this is about your soul. It's about getting your soul to the next level. This is for your soul journey. If you do this, now you're raising yourself. I was like, you know, And I was like, okay, I'll do it.

You know, I'll do it. And I had to make a phone call that I didn't want to make and I did what I see exactly what she did, Like she's my doctor. I was like, whatever Laura Jackson's help me to do in this moment, I'm gonna do, you know. And uh And so I think about that, like you can you know how we always go through things in life and we can look back at our breakups and we are always like, fuck, why did I do that. Why did I call that person? Yea, I was drunk?

Why did I send that text? And in reactive mode? Why didn't I stop and put my phone when? And and I call my friend before I said that? And this is that Like it's such a reward to not behave that way. Yes, it's like catching up with yourself. Like when I'm in that reactive mode, I'm like, oh,

I'm gonna regret this in ten hours. And then you see it happening as you're doing it, and you're like, step away, step oh yeah, yeah, step away, step away, put your phone down and take a walk, like just it doesn't take long to cool down and get your senses back. And so it's just the exercise of doing it. And once you learn that exercise and you practice it, it, you know, it keeps, it keeps coming back to you and you don't forget, you know, then it feels like

you're missing something when you don't do it. You know, I used to react to emails before I had even finished reading them. I would be like, excuse me, you freaking idiot? Are you a fucking idiot or what and be like no, no, no, and then send, you know, without even and then I'd be like, wait, oh, are

there eighteen other people on this dude? You know, like I U so yeah, my uh my loy Lynn Jackson, who is a different person, told me that my spiritual exercise has to be uh save us drafts, that whether it's in real life, whether it's in an email, that I can say what I want to say, but I have to press save his drafts and not send it for twenty four hours. Um. And that's a way of not being reactive. Do you have tricks? Um? I just

know to put my phone down. I go outside a lot when I'm thinking, I go grab one of my dogs to calm down. Um. And I just I know myself so well now you know, and not thought I'm cooked and I'm fixed or ready to you know, for heaven. But I know what's up with me. You know what my weaknesses are, and I've worked on them really hard. And I've had a lot of relationships and whether they be romantic or friendships, you know, I've had a lot of friendships and because of my honesty or because people

you know, don't want to hear the truth. And I have very very strong relationship with telling the truth. I just feel like there's a dearth of honesty, and I feel like you you are nobody unless you can hold the truth and just tell somebody something that may or may not hurt them when somebody is in pain, and and you know you know something or you have something, especially for women, women, you don't need anyone to just bullshit you. And that's ruined a lot of my friendships,

you know, And it's a heart. It comes off as harsh, and it comes off as a aggressive and like bullying and stuff. But that's not something that I'm willing to modify, you know what I mean. Like, there are things that you can work on, and then there are things that you hold onto because they're part of what makes you who you are and they're your character, and you know you can try and use them a little bit more discernibly. But also again, don't divorce yourself of your truth. Do

you feel like I have a good, fiery friend. I see the same in you, which is truth telling, truth telling, truth telling? That is that not the way that you do love? Like a lot of people in friendships don't say the thing or don't do the thing, and so they're perceived as the kind ones, the nice ones, to me the person in the relationship, who's bringing the truth, who's bringing the fire. It might sound aggressive, but that's actually love because that's like taking the confrontational risk and

like truly showing up for a person. Do you feel like when you do you feel misunderstood by that? Do you feel like that is actually how you're loving? Yeah? If I feel like one of my friends is being treated in a way that is not acceptable, then I will go to bout for them, you know what I mean. It's so easy to defend other people than it is

to defend yourself sometimes. Like I had a relationship with a friend, uh for a long time who did some stuff that was really really hurtful to me and I I kind of swallowed that for a while, but when I saw it happened to our another friend that she did what she did, I couldn't help myself. I was like, now this is what we're talking about here. You know, I had a conversation with you, and now you're doing it again to our other friend, and I'm watching you

like you didn't hear anything I said. And then you know, that friend immediately sent me an email like I need space from you. I can't be spoken to like this, da da da dada, And I was like, no problem. Anytime anyone asked for space, No problem. You don't fight that, you don't resist the change, you just accept it. You know,

people are in different places in their lives. In that moment, it was more important for me to stick up for my friend who was not being treated well than it was to worry about the status of that other friendship, you know. Um, And I probably myself on that, like I would do that for a stranger. I would go to bout for someone I met in an airport bathroom as long as they weren't asking for a picture while I was on the toilet. Um, I said, I said

this to this woman the other day. I was like, can we just get out of the bathroom please before we do this? Can we this is the background that you're looking for. I just feel so much compassion for you, Chelsea, and I feel like you've been going through this and it's so tender and it's so real and it's so big in your life. And then this is day one of a whole another phase where you have to do this in public, okay, And it just feels like just as like a wound that you're starting to heal over,

heal over? What is it like too? Then have to share something so sacred to you with the world and all their nonsense, and no one knows what to say, even the people who are trying to support you, I'm sure saying really stupid shit like what is that? What is that like? And what can people do better for folks like you who they love and they want to support.

It's good and a breakup. Yeah, well, you know, something really sweet happened, like when Joe and I broke up, and you know, as human, he was living with me, and you know, all of his stuff was being moved out of my house and uh, my my housekeeper, my bell who's like my nanny basically, uh, and my dog's real mother, um she and my groundskeeper and all the things that rich people have. They all were sitting with

me in the kitchen. I came in one day and you know, broke down and they loved Joe so much. They all loved Joe. Everyone in my life loves him because he's such a ray of sunshine. And they came in and my belt put her arm around me and she goes just so you know, you know, we all loved him, but you you know, you're our girl. We love you, We're here for you, will always be here

for you. And just that made me, like, you know, turn into a blathering mess because it went so much to me because I really thought they liked him more like like, oh, it's a reminder that all the people in your life are there because of you. They were

there before him and they'll be there after him. Nobody was there because of him, All of the people in my life, in my circle, my circle of friends, my family, as much as everyone loved us together and the magic of what we had when we were together, and you know, they have come to me in such a way that's like no, no, no, no, we're with you, you know.

And not that you have to take sides, it's not like that, but it's it's a reminder that you're valuable and you have your own relationships and they're not because of another person. They're because of you. When you're the center of their solar system and you always have been. But when you bring somebody else to the equation, it's not like you split the solar system. It's just like a then diagram where Joe was taking up a little bit more space and then it's like a reminder, Oh no,

here you are our person and that's fucking so sweet. Yeah. How do you think being this vulnerable, broken up Chelsea, which you're psychiatrist, did to you? Do you do that artist thing where artists worry that if they get healthy, they're right like in my world, we can't. You can't get too healthy or your writing will start sucking, because is you have to suffer and be miserable in order

to have good writing. Do you How do you think your stand up and your work world will change with this wise, vulnerable open I mean, it's always changing, you know, like I've done. I did a stand up special a couple of years ago, right after I wrote my last book that was very like profound and meaningful and deep and like something that I didn't think you could do and stand up until nan Neet or Hannah Gadsby did that, and I was like, oh, I could, I want to

do that. I want to tell that story like you know, um, And that was a little bit more serious, but it was received really well. And this special that I just taped is fucking badass, like o g my kind of comedy, and I talked about I hate from hating men to falling for Joe Koy. It's all in their covids, in their dating. Uh, you know, like all the stuff that I grapple with. And I just think, you know, if you're an artist, as long as you're authentic to yourself.

You know, right now I'm writing a book with Whitney, you're editor. We share an editor. Now. I I just signed a deal about falling in love about my love story and um, and I was like, oh, well, this is kind of similar to what happened with Love Warrior, you know. I was like, uh, but but you know it isn't because it's like I still fell in love. I still have my love story. It was by way of Joe, but it's not because of Joe. Like my story, Joe is not my whole story. There's still more to come.

And so you know, like creatively, I think that that one line, you know, don't resist change from Eckart Toole or Deepak or one of those people that you know I could never have a real conversation with because I'm like, what, um, But I like to read their quotes and I like to read their books. UM. I had Deepunk Joe bronk Ones and I was like wait what, Like, I'm like, what are you? What are you talking about? Just send me, Just send me. I know him and his ride stone glasses.

I'm like, this is very confusing messaging. Uh So, so I was gonna say a false equivalency and I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense at uh uh. But I think if you're an artist, you know you you always have to accept the change, right, We always have to just go with the change. You have to be like, Okay, my life is different. This is okay. I'm not breakable, unbreakable. That's who I am. Like I I this isn't gonna break me psychologically, my spirit is never going to wane.

This is gonna make me stronger. I'm I've never been more aware of my strength before than I am now. And you know that, in and of itself is something I wish I could just have a big bottle of people to dip it into, because there are so many women you know, that you talked to, that I talked to, that call into my podcast, that I just want to hold and be like, you are so special. You just have to start believing that you are so strong you.

We all have this reservoir of strength within us just by the nature of us being alive, and some of us don't even realize how how how easy it is to tap into that and how available it is for us to tap into. And so, uh, you know that has to be part of my messaging and has always been part of my messaging. You know, I don't do anything creative anymore that doesn't have a message or doesn't make you think you know about what your stance on something is, or how you view the world, or how

you view yourself in your own entitlement or lack thereof. Um. So, yeah, I forget what the question was. It was a great answer. You used a phrase at the very beginning of this conversation and I'm still thinking about because you said, I'm dealing with it now so that I don't have delayed grief.

And in a lot that I've heard from you on your podcast, you talk about how when you lost Chet, your beloved brother, you realized decades later that the delayed grief was an intrinsic part of all the defenses that

you put up. And you also talk about how Joe shared so many beautiful qualities with Chet, I'm wondering, did did any part of this relationship heal something for you with with chet And is there is there something to that, because there seems parallels to you know, now you're not you're you're protecting yourself in the positive way of not delaying the grief. Yes, yeah, I mean I felt my brother. I felt a lot of my brother and and and Joe.

Joe wears flat annals all the time, and like, for a while, I never made the connection, but my brother used to wear flannels all the time. And I remember walking into Joe's house into his closet one day and when we first started dating, and and I saw this just a array of flannels hanging everywhere, and I went, oh,

my god, this is my brother's closet. Like and I remember just you know, I used to come home after school every day and go to my brother's closet after he died, to smell his shirts and go through his shirts and sit by myself in his bed. Because I was so tough. No one could see me cry. You know, my parents weren't there, they were probably sleeping, and I would just go in there and do my grieving alone and not let anyone see me, No one was allowed to see me cry. No, that was off limits for

like probably twenty five years. And um, I could cry for other people, but it couldn't be about me, you know what I mean. And so when my friends would break up or my I remember my friend Amber, her wedding got called off like a week before, you know, ther guy left her and I I could not get over that guy was a wreck for her. I was. She was consoling me, and you know, I'd be sleeping in her bed and She'd like, can you fucking leave?

You are bringing me down. And my other friend was like, hey, I hate to break this to you, but this is not about Amber. Okay you have I'm finished business. But I was in my twenties. I didn't know what I was crying about, you know, And now I know what I was crying about. But um yeah, there was a lot of Chet and my and Joe, and there was a lot of my mom and Joe. You know, Joe's is so loving and so caring and does everything for

you know, did everything for me. You know, would hold his lip bomb in his pockets to make sure because I am an a lip bomb addict, and hold my purse never lets me carry anything, you know, in the middle of the night, he would put a pillow underneath my legs because he knows I like to sleep like that. He did so many little like only a mother love type things, you know, that my mom would have done for me, and that it was and I felt I felt their presence around us a lot, like I felt

like they brought him to me for a reason. So yeah, there was a lot of healing. You know, there's been a lot of healing with Chet, with with Dan, my psychiatrist, because that's what the crux of all of it was. Um. It was about It was about that, you know, about being abandoned at that early age. And he was an attachment figure to me like he was my He was

like my boyfriend. I was nine and he was twenty two, and he took me everywhere like his little plaything, you know, and I was like, where's Chat, We're going for a five hour drive to our summer house. I would drive with Chat like Chat and Chelsea. It was like, you know, bookends. He was the oldest and I was the youngest. So there was a lot of healing that had to happen

with Dan, which I hated. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times I would sit in therapy and Dan would be like Chelsea when you were nine. I'm like, Dan, please, we've been over this so many times. If you draw everything back to chat, I'm gonna stop taking you seriously. And I had that attitude like this isn't about my childhood, and that is the first sign when someone says that sentence, it is the first sign that you need therapy. And and that's what I said.

I go this, there's nothing to see here, nothing, I said. My mom's dad, my brother's dad. Hopefully my dad will die soon. I'm like, I'm good with death. There's nothing to talk about with my childhood. I'm like, I'm actually just really impatient, I pulsive, and bitchy. I would like to work on those three things. And you know, now I know what that sentence meant, and and I know when people are stuck, I also can see it and

I can help them. It was funny. I went out with dinner to to my girlfriends the other night, and it was like a dinner to like, you know, help me and be there for me. And my one girlfriend was just a hot mess, like just going through the cycle. Of men and this, and she's like, I don't I don't want a boyfriend, but this guy doesn't want to be exclusive, and did I looked at her. I go listen to me. You're in no place to be making any of these decisions. I'm telling you from sitting down

here tonight. You're not healthy right now. Like you are unhealthy and you're not looking at yourself. You are going through something, and you have to allow yourself to go through something and stop putting using men as band aids on this. That is not going to fix you. You are doing more damage than good. Like I basically had to shake her and my friend the next morning. The other friend was like, ship, that dinner really turned around.

She's like, we were supposed to be there to help you, and then you end up going off on her and and but it's true, like you know, when I see someone in pain, I want to help them. I know what what that means now, I know how to how to like you know, untapped that grief and and and say look at yourself. And so you know that's part of that honesty thing. If you have the tools to help somebody, how could you not. My friend calls those

care frontations are fair. I'm gonna write that down carefrontations the next time I have one. I'm like, you know, this is a care for care Wait, Naudi say it care carefrontation, carefrontation. Okay, that'll be in the dictionary by March, definitely, Chelsea will make it. So do you know this is

a little woo woo? But do you know the theory that there's like this wound in our life, in our childhood, and then if and when we create this healthier version of ourselves, what we often do next is recreate what happened to us so we can end it differently. Oh no,

I've never heard that. It's interesting, right that you this fear of abandonment thing, and then and then to the loss of Chet, and now here you are, having truly been brave enough to do it, to enter into this open up your heart, and you're ending it in an opposite You're like taking that power back that you didn't have when you were a kid, because you're doing it in a way where you don't self abandoned and you don't grieve in a closet like you're actually you might

still be in a closet, but it's very public what it's like, you're grieving, you're showing all of your pain and grief dealing with it now instead of putting it away, and you're doing it for all of us. I like that, just this idea that that's how we take back some of the power of our childhood that we have because I mean, people repeat those cycles all the time and patterns.

You know, they don't always end them differently, but they definitely get into the same pattern, structure, same dynamic, whether it's abusive or whether it's it's you're dependent or avoidant and anxious, you know, all of those kind of dynamics that can be repetitive. Like you, you know, you have to disrupt the cycle, right, I remember it's gleat doctor gleat Atlas. Okay, let me write that down. Next to care frontation. She says, we either repeat or we repair.

So we always repeat the thing, yes, yes, but either we repeat it mindlessly or we do this repair thing, which just feels like what you're doing, which is repeated but ended differently, and that that's healing. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense because you know, you talk about your inner child a lot in therapy. You know, with a person that you were the age that you were when you were traumatized. Like for me, it was nine when my brother left,

so emotionally I kind of stopped maturing. I wasn't in touch with how to articulate my pain. I was never told or spoke to a doctor that could help me through that, you know, so uh, in relationships, I would show up is that nine year old girl. I would throw tantrums and instead of saying I'm hurt or I love you, I would be like no, I I would withhold or stop my feet or be silent, you know, like childish behavior, and boyfriends were like listen, what, like,

what's your deal? I remember I had one boyfriend who was like, I don't know what's going on with you, but it feels like you have no ability to articulate your feelings. And I was like, no, how would I like? You know, I thought stopping my feet was that like that?

I thought that was how I got it across. And you know, going into therapy and understanding, oh, why you get so stuck when you talk about your feelings is because I didn't have the language, you know, And that's something that I see and a lot of people, and when you don't have the language to communicate, then it's you're never gonna You're never gonna have a healthy adult romantic relationship. You never That's what you did with that announcement.

I feel like you gave people language to do this in a way that is a higher way, self wise, a self move. And you're writing this new book about your love story. It's not about you and Joe. It's about you and you. It's about the love story you're writing, the relationship you're having with yourself. And I cried and laughed when I was training for my marathon because I was listening to your book. When I found you on the side of the road, I was just like weeping.

I mean, Chelsea, I can't tell you how impactful that book was and how much I longed for you to find real love. And I think that we get it also fucked and wrong with the love stories and the movie world and TV world, Like love is actually the relationship we have with ourselves. And that's what you showed me with the with the post and coming out with

the story. Is the love that you now have and you've created and you built this world around you for yourself because so many people have a romantic love story, but it requires self abandonment, and that's not it. It's not just being partnered. And I love what you're saying, Abby, because it's also like, you know, I've been in love with myself before where I really thought, Wow, you're fucking awesome, you know what I mean, Like you've got something that

a lot of people don't got. But to love yourself is a much different feeling than being in love with yourself. You're not showcasing yourself for others, and it falling in love with that. You actually have looked inward and you love and respect yourself, and no one once that is built, you can't take that away from somebody. It's the same way that you can be really strong like you've always been. I mean, you have been strong like a bull and

as unapologetic and as shameless. There's no one that wouldn't call you strong. And then with this though, it's like you're strong enough to be weak. I mean, anyone can stand in strength when they are surrounded by a fortress of defenses, but super fucking strong people can stand there with no defense. That's what I feel like you did with that post. It was equal parts total strength and total weakness, which we use as a like a negative

thing softness. Vulnerability, yea vulnerability. Yeah, but you were like, this is how much I care. This is how much I care. Well, vulnerability is strength, you know. For a long time I looked at that as like, oh, you, vulnerability is weakness, and it's like, no, vulnerability is strength. Vulnerability is knowing that like, Okay, you're putting yourself out there in a way that is revealing and uncomfortable, and

that's strong. Yes, And that's a good reminder, you know, for everybody, because the defensiveness and the toughness and the inability. You know, one thing I learned in therapy that was so valuable was my inability to like be alone, you know, to sit like just not even you know, with the TV on, to sit in my backyard and just look at the trees or the grass or whatever. And and I didn't understand why that was an issue. I was like, but I don't want to be alone. I like people.

I always had an entourage. I always had like people living at my house, you know. And he was like, that's great, you can always have that, But like if you don't have a relationship with your own thoughts. If you're so scared to be alone with your inner dialogue and you're scared of what's going to come up, then you're fucked up. There's no shortcut around it. Like, no one gets away with it, No one gets away with

not looking at themselves. Will bite you in the ass just when you are on top of the world, like I did with me. I was on top of the world and it bit me in the ass, and then I was defenseless because I just I just fell down, you know what I mean, my defenses. I was out of defenses and and and that's not a desirable wait for it to happen. It's so much more um positive and powerful. Yeah, thank you, like too, to seek out the truth, you know, and not worry about that dulling

your creativity. You're gonna be a fuller, holer person who's gonna be even more relatable, you know, because since I've cracked open, people can relate to me so much more. I was unrelatable before I went to therapyally, you know, like it was people are like, what's wrong with this fucking bitch? Is she liked this all the time? I'm like, what do you mean, I'm crushing it, like aspirational but not relatable exactly exactly and uh and you know the escapism.

You know. I love to party, I love to talk about it. I love mushrooms, I love cannabis, I love alcohol, I love all of it. But you know, my relationship with all of that has also changed, you know, because of therapy, because you're like, Okay, well that's an unreasonable amount, you know what I mean, like, what are you doing there?

And even now, you know, especially in the throes of my feelings right now, in this last month of separating from from Joe, you know, there are times where I've had a couple of drinks with friends, and then there are times where like, no, I don't want to feel that way. I want to sleep well. I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night. I don't want to numb this. I don't want to get

drunk and have fun right now. I want to deal with the pain that I'm in and exhaust that pain and get through it, because there is that is the best way in that book. I don't know if you guys have read this David Hawkings book, Letting Go. It's pretty deep and pretty metaphysical, so you have to be like really down with it when you read it, because

otherwise you're like huh and um. And he talks about this guy who lost his mother and he just went to a cabin and just sat alone in this cabin and cried and cried and cried until he felt joy again. And he faced his grief head on and dealt with it, and he was able to exhaust it in a much quicker at a much quicker rate than when you are constantly trying to distract yourself from your own pain. Exhausting it,

that is, I've never heard exhaust your pain. Yeah, it's like running at three year old boy around in the backyard. That's how I think of pain. Let me fucking run it around and run it around so that it gets so tired that it leaves my body in a in a quicker succession than you know. All the other stuff can delay your grief. And so yeah, I want to exhaust that pain. And it's working. I feel joyful, even

though I feel heartbroken. I feel so joyful and optimistic and grateful, like grateful for these amazing people in my life, Grateful to be sitting here having a conversation like this. You know, I would never have been able to talk like this openly when before I went to therapy. I would never be able to any let anyone see me this way. And you know, like I have so much gratitude for that growth, and gratitude for the fact that these conversations like on your podcast, on my podcast, on

multiple podcasts. I mean, there's only like six ers of a podcast, so let's be honest, we have half of them. Um, you know that we are all talking about this stuff because you know, the only way to make somebody stronger is to share. Yeah, it's like grief. It's like the Jewish tradition of sitting sugar for yourself for a while. Yeah yeah, yeah, for yourself. And that's not to say it's not like a pity party. It's a you know, yeah, it's an actulive grieving. It's so funny because like Shiva

is so depressing. That's just the way. Wouldn't it be great if every every funeral was a celebration of life and we all just took part of that person and lived in their honor, you know, instead of feeling sorry that they're not here anymore. No one's ever really gone. You know, people aren't gone once you've met them. They're with you forever if you love them and if you had something special, and that's worthwhile. And there's a different way to frame death, and there's a different way for

us to cope with death. And that's why it's so beautiful when you talk about this loss in some way of Joe, is that everything you just said it is true, Like that person is forever going to be part of you, that experience forever going to be part of you. You are changed because of it, and it's almost like the rest of your loves that you have on out are in part in honor of that. Yes, absolutely, like my

next relationship will only be stronger and better. You know, I don't have any time for anything other than excellent, and you know I'm I'm excellent, and I want that in return, you know. And and so that's there's a lot of dignity that comes from that self exploration and a lot of you know, self assurance. You can go through times in your life. I certainly have where I have been insecure or self conscious or second guest myself

and that's not a fun feeling. And you know, most people don't know that that you can get out of that chill. See thank you, I don't. I just the

way that you are walking through. This is going to change lives and it's going to it's it's a victory much it is how I feel about it because it is going to help so many people not abandon themselves and redefine what victory and love is, which is that which is perhaps partnering and only partnering with the person who never require self abandonment of you, and that it's just want everybody to repeat the mantra, I am excellent and I deserve excellence. Let us take that. You're just

I just fucking love you, Chelsea Handler. Oh my god, I love you guys. I love all three of you. I love you so much, and I love that we have a history to gather Glennon from so many years, and we've done so many fun things together. You know, whether it be interviewing, well, it's always interviewing, but it's so fun to do it with you. All right, the rest of you. We will see you next time when we can do hard things. Thanks for doing hard things with us, Chelsea. We can do hard things. Is produced

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