Canaries in Coal Mines with Therapist Lori Gottlieb

up dates up there. But all my Canadian dates are January through March, and then I have some Seattle in between February three and second i have Seattle in Portland, and but I'm going to stay up there for the majority of the winter time, and Joe Coy will be introduced to Whistler. I was gonna ask, will you go for the whole time or while he's on tour still too, so he will use that as his home base. Oh,

I love that. This is great. Yeah, I can't wait for all my friends to come visit me up there now that we're not well, hopefully down through the thick of it. But who knows what the hell is on the horizon? Yeah, it was. It was actually like terrifying. In one of the ads that we recorded to day where they said, well, it's that time of the year. Whether those sniffles are you know, sniffles are COVID nineteen, I was like, oh, so it is just that time

of the year now. Somebody said to me COVID will go about be going on for the next three to five years, and I was like, that sounds about right. Yeah, Well, I have some brighter news for you. A follow up from t who called in last season. She was on our episode Open to Happy Endings and she had had some sexual trauma and was dealing with that while she was with her current partner and having some some issues

related to that. So we got ahold of her afterward and I gave her a recommendation for a therapist to see and this is what she said, Hi, Catherine, I just wanted to thank you again for your help in finding a therapist. I contacted Healthy Relationships b C and have found a therapist I connected with who's accommodating to my limited budget as a student. Today I had my first session of E. M. D R Therapy and it went really well and I'm so optimistic about the healing

that is going to come from this. I can't believe this all came about because I happened to see Chelsea's Instagram story asking for questions and missions. Anyway, I wanted you and Chelsea to know how grateful I am for the opportunity to share my struggle and your help and encouragement and finding supports to start healing. Thanks again, t Oh, that's a great update. Thank you. I was doing that. I was so happy to get that email from her. And yeah, because it is, it's sort of it's one

step at a time. You take those baby steps, you get started, and I think e M d R will be a really have you tried that I have? And you know who was just talking about that publicly with Sandy Bullock on the Red Table Talk. She was talking about e M d R. She had an intruder into her like come into her house and she had PTSD from that and that she did a lot of a

M d R and she said it was so healing. Yeah, I think especially for any sort of physical trauma like that where it's someone invading your space or you know, as t had sexual trauma, I think it's so so helpful. So that actually leads us right into our guest today. Oh yes, it was also a therapist. Yeah, we have a real therapist. You guys, don't be jealous if you're not on this episode. Our guest today Lori Gottlieb, who is a psychotherapist and a New York Times bestselling author

of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. That's the title of the book that I read, and it's sold over a million copies and it's currently being adapted as a television series and there's also a new workbook version of this. She is also the co host of the very popular Dear Therapist podcast. She writes a weekly column in advice column for The Atlantic called Deer Therapist, and her Ted Talk was one of the top ten most watched of the year. So please welcome Laurie Gottlieb. Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello,

how are you. I'm well? How are you? I'm well? Thank you. This is my co host, Catherine. Hello. Hi there, Hi, it's very nice to speak with you. First of all, congratulations on all of your success. Well, thank you. Yeah, it's nice, right, nice to be successful, it is. I can't I can't argue with that, especially when you are helping people while you're achieving that success, I would imagine

that is an even greater victory. I came up across your book right after I think my book came out shortly before your book, and then I was reading your book, and then everyone was reading your book, and there were so many similarities from my therapy experience with my psychologist that I was able to relate to in your book and your book, that book, Maybe You Should talk To Someone is a collection of many couples and people that you worked with, right, Yeah, So basically in the book,

I follow the lives of four of my patients as they go through various struggles, and then, uh, there's a fifth patient in the book, and the fifth patient is me as I go to my own therapist because I'm going through an unexpected breakup, and so you see kind of therapy with me as the therapist and me as the patient. And it was very insightful to see that because I guess as a therapist, I think a lot of people always forget we assume that therapists have all

the answers. You know, that you guys are there to help us kind of navigate everything, and I think people can sometimes forget that you're a human being. As well and need your own guidance. Yeah. I mean I say at the beginning of the book that my most significant credential is that I'm a card carrying member of the human race. That I think, you know, I know what

it's like to be a person in the world. And I think that there's this idea that when you go to a therapist, that they're like these perfectly put together people. And I think the other trope that people have of therapist is that they're like the hot mess, you know, like the person who's like like an in treatment, you know, where they're like breaking boundaries and having sex with their patients.

And it's not like that. It just we are exactly like you, except that we're trained to help you deal with your struggles, and then we go to people who are trained to help us deal with our struggles. And do you find yourself as a professional, Do you find yourself or another outlet that you can kind of get that feedback from. Do you have a community of other therapists that you work with or meet with or anything like that. Yeah, so, and maybe you should talk to someone.

You get to see something that a lot of people don't realize, but most therapists have consultation groups. So every week we meet with a group of our colleagues and we go over our cases and so we talk about, you know, where we're stuck, or we want advice, or we want feedback. So it's not just us alone in a room with somebody. But if we really want, you know, to run by somebody else, we we have that option.

And I think when it comes to our personal lives, you know, I think that I really think that therapy can be so valuable for people. And I'm not saying that because I'm a therapist. I'm saying that as a patient, because I feel like, you know, I talked in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. So we go to our friends with a problem and we're like, listen to what my partner did, or my boss did or my sister did, and we're like, yeah,

they're wrong, You're right. You go girl, you know, because we think we're supporting them, but really, you know, when you listen to your friends over time, it's almost like you'll hear that maybe it's with a different person, or maybe it's even with the same person that they're sort of describing the same thing over and over, and the common denominator is them. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you, but we do not say that to our friends.

And so when you go to therapy, instead of getting idiot compassion, you get wise compassion where we hold up a mirror to you and we help you to see something about yourself that maybe you haven't been willing or able to see. And the word compassion is in there because it's done in a very compassionate way. But it's really important for us to see our own role in our own lives, and you know what we might be

doing that is getting in our way. Yeah, I mean that was very clear to see with one of your patients, who I would describe as an asshole upon reading it. Obviously you use more careful language because you are a compassionate therapist, but you know this guy who was so clearly stuck in his own bullshit and his own narrative and just repeating the rep Titian of his of his behavior basically and not being able to see outside of yourself. And I think that is the gift of self awareness

is pretty much the one tangible. Not the one tangible, but the most prominent tangible thing that I walked away

from therapy with is the gift of self awareness. Well, that's right, And I think when you talk about him being an asshole, I think, you know, he was incredibly insulting and unlikable at the beginning of the book, but he becomes the person that I think most people like the most by the end of the book because once you see why he's acting that way, and I think sometimes, you know, we don't take the time to figure out, well, why is someone acting that way because they're speaking with

their behaviors if they don't have the words, or something is so unspeakable, as there was something in his life without spoiling it, you know, if something is so unspeakable, we speak with our behavior. It comes out in other ways. So once he started talking about it, he started to change his behavior and and he becomes like incredibly lovable and somebody that that I think people are drawn toward. Yeah. Absolutely,

I recognize a lot of myself and him too. That's why I feel so free to be able to call him an asshole, because that's what I was before I went to therapy. So this podcast. Well, I mean, I know you're good at giving advice obviously, so we're very excited to have a professional on the podcast because we are not. But I like to give advice anyway. We have people call in, you know, with life problems, we're

going to give them just some feedback. So we're so happy to have you here today, Laurie, Thank you great, great, excited to do this. Yeah, well, before we get to all the fun stuff, we'll take a quick break. Okay, sounds good. We'll be right back. Our first call comes from Lizzie. She is a clinical psychologist. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm having a hard time with my family. I've always felt a little different, and I've been labeled the emotional one. I've been a crier since I was a kid, and

my mom could never handle it. Well, i just completed my doctorate in psychology, and I've also been really trying to put the work in for myself. I feel the older I get and the more I learn, the more I see my family's toxic traits, their tendency toward judgment and criticism, their old school ideas. For example, you're turning thirty soon, when are you going to get married and start having kids. I feel so frustrated because I wish they could see how damaging some of the things they

say and do can be. But they're my family and I love them, and I'm just not sure I like them right now. I know I'm biased because I'm a new psychologist, but I'm also not trying to therapyze them. How do I reconcile this, How do I manage healthy relationships with people who are unwilling to look inward on themselves? And how do I communicate these things without sounding like the know it all family member who just got their doctorate in psychology. Lizzy, Hi, Lizzie, Hi, Lizzie. Well, so

I'll just jump in if that's okay. So I was thinking, you know, when a lot of people grow up and say, my family said I was too sensitive, or my family said that I overreacted to things, or my family said I was just I couldn't just let things go, and I was very differ cult. Right, So we talk about the identified patient in the family, and they identified patient is the person who kind of holds all the symptoms for the family that nobody is talking about, and that

person becomes like the canary in the coal mind. That person becomes first says, wait a minute, there's there's a problem here, right, So it's not that the other people in the family are bad people. It's that they never learned how to talk about emotions. They were they're very uncomfortable with emotions. So if your child starts having these normal human emotions and you're uncomfortable around them, you might say to your child, Oh, don't be so sensitive, Oh

just let it go, right. And then sometimes these people grow up to become adults who are very depressed, and we have this saying, you know, before diagnosing someone with depression,

make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes. Right. Um. I'm not saying, by the way, Lizzie, that your family is that, but I am saying that I think that maybe you you didn't learn a lot about what it means to validate your own feelings, right you're shaking your head now, and and then what it means to talk about that in a way where you're not accusing your family of anything, but you're you're holding your ground, And I think that's the first place to start with us. Yeah, I think

you're exactly right with that, and that's right struggle. It feels like they don't hear me, hear what I'm trying to say? What are you trying to say? What would you like to say to them? Sometimes it's just basic things, like I said, when I feel like my views are different than there's, it's not okay for them to say some things like oh, why is there a black Annie? Or when I am upset and I expressed a feeling, well, yeah I feel sad about that. Oh, well, you're making excuses.

I'm like, what, how is that an excuse? I'm sharing a feeling with you all, and that's an excuse for something. It just it's really hard. Yeah, I see this in couples a lot to I see between parents and children, but I all so see it in couples where people try to argue with somebody else's feeling, like, oh, why would you feel sad about that? Or don't feel sad about that? Like, you can't argue with the way someone feels.

You might not agree with some content around that, but you can't argue with the fact that they feel the way they feel, because that's just nobody can own that except you. I think about parents who say to their kids are really uncomfortable with feelings, and their kid comes to them and says like, I'm really sad about what happened in school today, and the parents like, don't be sad.

Let's go get some yogurt, you know, let's go get frozen yogurt, let's go to Disneyland, or you know, I'm really scared about this, and they're like, really, there's nothing

to be afraid of. So they kind of try to talk you out of your feeling because they are uncomfortable with your feeling, and then the kids learns, oh, maybe it's not okay to feel sad or angry or anxious or whatever you happen to be feeling, right, So it sounds like you are afraid that if you were to say to them now, actually I do feel sad about this, that they would do what they just kind of brushed

me off. Lizzie the politically correct one, Oh, we can't say that around her because she's sensitive and that will upset her or that will make her angry. And it's just like, I the problem here, right, You're not the problem, but the problem is that you feel like they get to make the rules and you have to follow them, as if you're still a child, but you're allowed to say whatever you want to say, and you're also allowed you get to choose whatever response you want to choose.

So just because they label you something doesn't mean you have to accept it. It's like I always say this, like when parents send guilt to you know, I always say, like, just because she sends guilt doesn't mean you have to sign for the package, doesn't mean you have to accept delivery. So just because they're sending you this message doesn't mean you have to accept the message. You don't have to sign for the package. So you can say whatever you want to say, and you don't have to argue with

them or try to convince them of something. But you can just tell them this is how I feel about it, and they can call you whatever they want. We just had on on my podcast, have this podcast called Dear Therapist, and this this woman was saying she talked to her brother, and her brother said to her, you know everything you're you're always so sensitive, you're so emotional, You're you know, everything is so emotional with you. And she said, yeah,

I have emotions. That's my superpower. And it stopped her brother right, because all of a sudden. It was like it was a reframe of how they think about her. Brother might not change his mind on that conversation, but it's a different way. Instead of saying no, I'm not sensitive, it's own it, say I am sensitive. I like that about myself. I feel things. I'm not racist, right, um, And you might use different words for that, but to say, like, you know, I feel differently about this, I think about

this differently. Yeah, I'm so scared of rocking the boat, of messing with the status quo. I'm so bad at confrontation. I'm so bad at standing up for myself, and I wish I were better at it, and I wish I were better at just saying yeah, being sensitive and having emotions is my superpower, because I think it is, but it feels like it gets shut down a lot. How do they feel about your career choice to be a

clinical psychologist? Um, I mean they're there's really they're proud of me for what I'm doing and getting my doctorate, and they've been really supportive. But then sometimes they're like, oh, well the doctor over here. Oh if you guys aren't ever going to take me seriously, how am I supposed to take myself seriously. You need to take yourself seriously and then other people will take you seriously and or may or may not, But the point doesn't really matter.

The point is you need to start taking yourself seriously. Yeah. And even my mom, she came to visit and she saw something that was gifted to me by a supervisor that said, oh, you did X, Y, and Z so well. And my mom was like, oh, you can do that. And I was like, yeah, I believe it or not. I learned some stuff these last few years. It's like everyone's surprised. Yeah, and again it's that reframe because I'm sensitive,

I function really well in the world. Yeah, I think you need to stand in your power a little bit more than you are. You know, give yourself a lot of credit. You went out there and got that doctorate, and just because your family doesn't understand what that means and what that entails, you have every right to explain it to them, to demonstrate, to show them how much knowledge that you've gleaned, that you're part of the future, not the past in terms of their old school ideas

and you know, racial judgments and whatever. You know, you don't have to defend yourself you can talk about the way you feel in a way that isn't defensive. You can say, yeah, I know you guys feel that way, but that's that's old school thinking. I've been introduced to a new way of thinking. You know, I'm a newer generation. This is what I believe, this is what I know to be true. These are the things that I've learned and own it instead of looking at them for your value.

That's not where you're going to get your value. Your value comes from within you. You went out in did these things. Your family didn't go and get their doctorate for you. You did that, and now you get to talk about it because it's another experience that you've added to your life, you know, to your shelf of experience in life. You know what I'm saying, Like, you get to talk about all of your experiences because it's not

anything that they've had. So yeah, I understand that people have problems with confrontation, but family gets very stuck in patterns of behavior, and who better to change that pattern of behavior than somebody who just got their doctorate in one of the social sciences. It's so important what you're doing and the exploration that you've done so you have

everything to be proud of. And I think if you just exercise that muscle a little bit more, especially in your family dynamic, you'll be surprised the things that come out of your mouth in the way that you feel about yourself. Families try to create a system that that stays in homeostasis, meaning like they don't want any one piece to change, right, So it's kind of like, oh, if one person changes and doesn't, let's say it at you.

There's a difference between sensitivity and reactivity. So it sounds like, right now, you're very reactive. So and that's different from the power that you have of being sensitive. And so if you are less reactive with them, if you try less to gain their approval, if you try less to kind of convince them of something, but you still stand in your own place, that's going to throw them off.

It's kind of like people do a dance with each other, and if one person changes their dance steps, then the other person is either going to fall on the dance floor or they're going to have to adjust their dance steps too. That's what's gonna happen with your family when you react differently to them. And so you're not so much the child trying to get their approval, but you're the adult almost their teacher, right but not. You're not

teaching them in an overt way. You're just saying, I know who I am, this is what I believe, and you're going to stop reacting to them in that way of like, please don't call me that, Please don't tell me that that's not true. Right, Just you know how you feel, you know what you believe, and you can say it and not be reactive if they have a

different way of thinking about it. Yeah, thank you. It's hard to communicate sometimes with people when they feel like when it feels like they don't want to listen, trying to figure out when is the right time to say something or when is the right time too. It's not that they don't want to hear it's that they're afraid to hear it, because you, Lizzie, are a reminder that emotions exist, and they are terrified of emotions. They are terrified of the kind of things that you think about

that that you feel. They feel them too, but they find other ways to kind of push them out, They numb them out, right, And so for you to come forward with these feelings and they have to look at feelings right away, and that triggers feelings in them and then they get terrified. So it's not personal to you, it's that you are just a symbol of emotions to them, and they get very afraid of emotions, yes, very afraid

of crying in tears and feeling yeah. Yeah, I mean a perfect example of them bringing up the Black Annie. Like a perfect response would be, like, I think it's a great don't what's your issue with having a black woman have the opportunity to star in this classic film that everybody knows about. Why why would you have a

problem with that? Or I think it's wonderful, Like I think it's so wonderful that a black woman has an opportunity, that this isn't just now a white story, that we're opening this up so that everybody can participate in this and that that this this issue, and that the crux of that movie is something that every little girl has seen. Why not have that be somebody that a small black girl can relate to more than as a white person

starring in it. You know, there's so many avenues to do it without the defensiveness, without the just to say, I'm proud of that. I'm proud that Annie has a black cast now and that there's a black Annie like that means to me progress is being made and black people are being representative in a more fair way. Yeah, I think I need to get better at taking myself more seriously so they take me more seriously and so I can convey those things. It sounds like you kind

of lose yourself around them. Yeah, you know, it's almost like I think sometimes we have these stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves that were our roles in the family. And you just said what your role was, like the silly little girl, right, And it's almost like wearing clothes that don't fit anymore, Like you're still walking around in those childhood clothes, but they don't fit anymore. They don't fit who you are. They didn't fit who you are then,

but you didn't know how to articulate that. That's why your mother said, oh, really you do all those things when she saw that, because I think I think that it's hard because you haven't accepted that you are not that role that was assigned to you in the family, and so it's really important for you to get out of that role and to take on a new role,

not just in your family, but in your life. That role is going to follow you in relationships, in your professional world, is going to follow you everywhere unless you start redefining your role. Yes, exactly, it's only with my family, I worry. I don't really care what other people think. It's just I don't know why it's so hard with family. Well, your family's done a number on you. You know, your family dynamic has probably just had an impact on you,

And obviously it has, because you know you don't. I was just thinking while you were talking, do I ever feel uncomfortable bringing anything up to my family? And and I'm the emotional one in my family for sure, and I don't when I talk they listen because I've never ever regarded their opinion as more important than my own. So maybe if you can think about it that way, you know you you are as important as you think you are, and you are valid and your feelings should

be validated. So I think as soon as you just start exercising that muscle a little bit more, you're going to realize how much more easily it will come to you. Yes, yeah, I need to get better at practicing that well, you will. You will start and you will just make a little step,

but baby step in the right direction. That's usually all it takes is one step, and then there's a domino effect, you know, of a new habit and you know, bodily, something I do when I'm on stage performing or when I'm nervous, or I just kind of really try to try to center myself, Like if that kind of interaction with your family makes you nervous and you're going to say something to stand up for what you believe in, or just try to get your body like think about

tightening your your abs, your muscles and just having a center of gravity so that you're solid and that you're on solid footing, and just think about I'm strong, I'm okay, I'm allowed to say how I feel. I'm allowed to say these things without getting flustered or getting too scared. You know, stand in your own body and be aware of your body, and just think about the fact that you've walked a long way to get where you are, and you did the work and you deserve an opinion.

There are a lot of voices in your head that aren't yours, but we all have this right and I think that's why a lot of us are so unkind to ourselves, and we don't even realize it. You know, a lot of times I'll say to people, like, you know, who's the person that you talked to most in the course of your life. And they might say, it's my mother or my partner, or my sister or my best friend. But actually the person that we talked to most in

the course of our lives is ourselves. And what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or true or useful. And so I had this therapy client and I said to her, listen, I want you to go home, and I want you to write down everything you say to yourself over the course of a week and come back and let's talk about it. And she came back and she started crying, and she said, I am such a

bullied to myself. I had no idea. You know, that voice that was her parents voice, like you have your parents voices and your your mom's voice in your head or family's voice. And there were things like, you know, she was typing an email and she made a typo and she said to herself, you're so stupid, right, that's not her voice. That was someone else's voice. She passed herself for reflection in the mirror, and she said, oh,

you look terrible today, not her voice. So I think it might be a really good exercise for you to really listen for that voice and write down what that voice is saying, and then to distinguish is that my

voice or is that somebody else's voice? Because I think you know what your voice is, but I think you start to it gets very very quiet around all the noise of the other voices that are rattling around in your head, and I think you really need to start writing some of this down to really become more aware of it. Yeah. It's like, I'm so worried about upsetting everybody if I express what I want or think or feel whatever it might be. But that's not fair to

me anymore for ever. No, And what you're really doing is instead of you know, you're so worried about disappointing them, but you're really disappointing yourself. And at the end of the day, I think that's really dangerous. Yeah, so that's why I wrote it. Yeah, Well, thanks for calling in, Lizzie. Yeah, Lizzie, did you feel like you've got some good advice that you can work off of. Yeah, I'm thank you for taking my call. It's really been awesome and I can't

believe I got to talk to you all. And Laura Golli by the universe is so weird. I was buying a gift for somebody at the book store the other day and your book was like facing out, Maybe you should talk to something, And I looked at the title and I thought, yeah, I really need to and well do you Well, I hope that this is helpful for you, at least it gives you a start. Yeah, thank you, guys. I appreciate you taking the time today. Good and Leslie

follow up with us. Let us know how it works out with your family and if anything interesting happens, Oh yeah, I'm sure, take care. I yeah. I mean, how do you get out of old family dynamics? I mean, what do you do, Laurie when you have a family like that, or like any family that is stuck in a like how do you change the dynamic? Yeah? I think it's less about changing them and really taking ownership of your own life and realizing that you're an adult with agency

and you have choices. So many people feel like they're trapped by their families that they feel like, you know, well, this is what this person always does, and then I'm helpless. It's like, you're not helpless. You have lots of choices in terms of how you respond. So you can't control what they do, but you can control what you do. And if the old pattern of responding is not king,

it's not effective. And and and by the way, we develop these patterns because as children, we had to find creative ways to manage with family members who maybe couldn't see us in the way that we needed to be seen. Right. Um, But as we get older, we find that those ways of protecting ourselves in the past don't protect ourselves as adults because we have so much freedom now that we have many more options and we're just not aware of the options because we didn't know about them. We didn't

learn about them. And I think that's what therapy can be really helpful for people is to learn what are these options. I can respond in a different way, I can set boundaries, I can do all these things. What does that look like? And that's where I think it comes in handy again, that wise compassion versus the idiot compassion of what our friends say, not that our friends aren't helpful, but I think our friends don't help us to really go to that deeper place. Right Well, our

next call comes from Taylor. She says, Dear Chelsea, I've been with my partner for eight years. We laugh, we care for each other, we have common interests. He's truly my best friend. About three years ago, we stopped being intimate with each other. After the first year of suppressing my needs, I came to him honestly and told him I didn't want to be in a sexless relationship anymore. Then he confided in me and said he has always

had this problem with relationships. The conversation evolved, and finally he told me he had childhood trauma that prevents him from having healthy intimate relationship. So what do we do while our relationship is in turmoil? Buy a house together? Of course, another year goes by. I decided I'm going to talk with therapists and learn how to uncouple. Then COVID nineteen, all my problems seemed so small. As the

world was shutting down, people losing lives and jobs. I decided I should be grateful I have someone who loves me to go through this pandemic. Our relationship barely survived the pandemic. We decided it's time to finally get a couple's therapist. We had a blow up and after the first fifteen minutes, the therapists separated us. He recommended we both see our own therapist to work on stuff separately. My partner started working one on one with the original therapist.

I was supposed to get a recommendation. However that never happened. Thank goodness for this podcast. I have seen huge improvement in his behavior and our relationship has been much better since he started working on his issues. However, we still don't have sex. Now it's been so long, I feel like I don't even know how to put the moves on. Also, knowing what I know now about his childhood, I almost feel inappropriate wanting this need of mine to be met.

What advice can you give me for getting back in the bedroom with my bow Taylor? Wow? Well, first of all, what I what I was hearing originally was a lot

of avoidance. Um, she said, you know, after a year of this, it's like, wait a minute, you didn't have sex for a year and it took you a year to talk about it, and I think, you know, I'm really glad that they decided to go to therapy, but it does seem a little strange that he's seeing the original therapist that they went to for couples, and she's sounds like not maybe going to therapy because yes, these are individual issues, but it affects the couple, and I

think it's really important for both people to have somebody to understand this better with. They have two things going on. One is that they need to figure out what is the day to day of this relationship right now as these things are happening, what are they learning about themselves and what are they learning about each other? But then the other question I think she has for herself is, yes, he has this trauma, Yes he brings us to the relationship.

Is this something that she is signing up for? Yeah, and we have Taylor with us. She and I actually unpacked a few of those things on our original call together as we sort of explored this question. And I know, Taylor, you mentioned that kind of your day to day feels a little bit like roommates. Correct. Yeah, we're definitely just in this like dale platonic state. I would say, yeah, so are you going to therapy too right now or is just he going to therapy. No, therapy is currently

happening right now for either of you. Correct, Okay? And why did he stop going to therapy? So I was told like his therapist went on vacation and then just never reached back out after vacation, and then he never followed up with him either. And did you follow up with your boyfriend and ask him why he didn't follow up?

I think a big part of it for him was it was talk therapy, which I could tell was like good for him, but he wanted something that was more like action based, Like he started looking into micro dose thing and like maybe getting on some sort of medication. He just felt like keeping talking about it wasn't really helping. And so since he wanted to try a different approach,

did he do anything proactive to pursue that. No? Right, So, so that's the thing, So he doesn't want to just talk about it, but actually he's just talking about it, even if he's not going to a therapist. He's just talking to himself about it. You know, well, maybe I should do this, or maybe I should do that, but he's not. It's it's ironic that he wants some kind of action, but he's not willing to sort of take action, even though he has ideas about how he might want

to take action. Yes, that's a very good point. I wonder about you two, Taylor. You're not going to therapy either, And this sounds like a really difficult situation. And it's been going on for quite a long time. Why do you think you haven't gone to talk to somebody about this? I guess I feel guilty for feeling that it's like somehow something bad that's happened to me, when it really isn't something that's happened to me. It's just something that I am have exposure to because of who I'm in

a relationship with. So who you're in a relationship with is happening to you, right, You're acting like this this is his issue and and that and that you're not allowed to feel anything about it because he's the one who had the trauma. He's the one who struggle. He's the one who's suffering, But you're suffering too. It's almost

like I I see this a lot. We had someone on our podcast where she was this young couple and she was her husband had this chronic illness and she was taking care of him, and she said, I don't feel like I can really talk about how this is affecting me, because he's the one who's sick, right, He's the one who sometimes is in pain. He's the one who has to deal with the illness, and I don't

really have the right to complain about anything. And we see that so often when somebody seems like they're the one struggling more and the other person feels like, well, you know, I have a lot of compassion for what they're going through, and so I'm going to be the person who stands by their side, but I'm I really my feelings. It's sort of like the hierarchy of pain, right, we make this up in our heads, like this hierarchy of pain, that his pain is worse than mine, so

I'm not allowed to feel mine. We do this all the time, you know, with our with our friends, with our families, you know, like whose pain gets too gets to be aired, and then it's almost like a contest. But pain is not an test. It's not a hierarchy. Pain is pain. And so if you're struggling and it sounds like you are, by the way, anybody would be having lots of feelings about what's going on. It's a really challenging situation. You need a place to go as

well to talk about what's going on for you. It will also help you not only talk about what's going on with you, but it will help you to communicate with him about what's going on between the two of you, because it sounds like the two of you don't really know how to communicate. I feel that's accurate. The guy that we started to talk to originally, he gave us

like these handouts and they were really super helpful. And because we were in the moment of therapy, it was easy to like say, oh, hey, let's use that worksheet around this listener speaker moment because we were in it, and now that we're not in it, it's like, oh, yeah, remember that thing we did over the summertime, Like, let's try that again. I don't I don't know. I guess I don't really do a good job of like speaking up for myself and my needs, and so I mean,

I guess that's also how I've probably gotten to this point. Yeah, And that's why I think you'll you would get a lot of tools out of going to talk to someone. But I also think you'd get some clarity on how you feel about being in this particular relationship and what will happen if things don't change, Because a lot of times we think about what's happening right now, but we don't think, how will I feel if I'm in the same exact place in five years. So I just saw

your face fall. It was not subtle. Um, you know, how will I feel if I'm in the same place in ten years? It sounds like if you look back, you said you've been together. I think eight years? It's all right? Yeah, so October was nine, okay, so so and at some point you know this wasn't the beginning, but it it's been going on for quite a while. And so if you thought back then nothing will have changed and I will be in the same exact place.

How would you have felt about that? Helpless? I guess hopeless, Helpless and hopeless maybe. So, what what you and your boyfriend have in common is that you both want something to change, but you're both not doing what you need to do to make things change. And I would want you to ask yourself, why are you not meaning if you want to see if this relationship has potential to be fulfilling for both of you, and I don't just mean in the physical intimacy, but just in general, the communication,

the connection, the closeness. Then you're going to have to do something other than nothing because things magically change. No, absolutely, And you look like you're in pain, you know what I mean. You look like you're an emotional turmoil and like this is where you know you are. It's okay, that's okay to admit to yourself, you know, I mean, maybe that's the fire that you need to to recognize that you have to do something proactive here. You can't just sit wait for him to fix himself or to

fix whatever issues that you guys are working on. You have to be part of that solution. And I know it's probably scary to think about the fact that, oh, you know, if I go to therapy, maybe I'll learn that I'm going to have to leave him. You're putting your everything on hold for a relationship that isn't bringing you that much joy. Yeah, it's really hard because we

do have fun together, Like he is hilarious. I know that he loves me and all these things, and it's just like I look at like the thought of being single again is terrifying, Like can I just like have this little bit of happiness and not have it all because I'd rather have that than be on my own again. This is so common. I see this all the time in therapy, where people say, you know, I'm getting some crumbs in this relationship and they're delicious. They're delicious crumbs.

I really love these crumbs. Um, But if I leave, I might start right. So I'm getting something here, but if I leave, I might have nothing. And I think that when you make decisions based on fear instead of making decisions based on some inside place of knowing, and you're not at that inside place of knowing because you haven't explored it enough, you haven't done the work because you're afraid to find out what that place of knowing

is going to tell you. It might very well lead to a very fulfilling relationship with this person who is hilarious that you love being around. Okay, it might lead there, it might not. We know that if you do nothing, you will be in this You will be having the same conversation with somebody else five years, ten years, fifteen

years down the line. Yeah, I guess I also don't know, like good time and place to start talking about things again, because I feel like I do this thing where we're in a good place, so I feel like that means like this is a good time to start talking about things again. But then it's like his perspective is we're in a good place, like why are you bringing this

up now? So it's both and there are some good things happening between the two of you, and these other problems still exist, so it's not one or the other. You're not in a good place, and that erases everything that's not working, just like when things are not working, it doesn't erase all the good things that you have

with each other. It's always both and And maybe one way to do this to kind of structure this is if you each come up with almost like a menu of here's a list of things I want to talk about. He has a list of things he wants to talk about. You only do one at a time, maybe once a week, right, And you give each other the menu, and they get to pick from your menu the topic that they want to talk about. And that's the only topic that you guys talk about in that conversation. You don't bring up

anything else on the menu. You can only order one item. There are no substitutions, nothing, nothing you know, doesn't come with any other things. It's all all a heart. And then the person has some control over it because they say, oh, you have these five items, I'll pick number three. I'm comfortable talking about that right now, And that might just be a way to kind of start some conversations going between the two of you, and then the next week

you choose off his menu. Right. But I really think that you're going to need someone who can help kind of hold you, support you, and guide you both of you as you go through this. And and that means that you each need to find somebody. You can either

go to couples therapy or you can go individually. Um, but I think you need to find somebody to help guide you through this process of really understanding who you are to each other, with the hope that it brings you closer to each other, with the hope that this relationship becomes the kind of relationship that you both want. Okay,

So I guess a good question. Then. Part of the reason I never got a therapist is because the guy we were originally working with that we did like four couple sessions with and then he moved to doing one on one and then I I guess he was gonna send your recommendations and you never did, and then I've heard like it. I mean, this is an excuse for myself. But that's kind of hard to find a therapist right now, Like therapists are overwhelmed with stuff like people dealing with

pandemic and everything like that. So I just maybe I don't I need like a resource or something. Sure, And I'll tell you, you know what, what's harder than finding a therapist is being in a really unhappy relationship. It is far easier to find a therapist than it is to be in an unhappy relationship. So you're already doing the hard thing. So finding a therapist will be really easy compared to what you're already doing. Okay, so um, there are so many resources. You can look at whatever

city you're in. You can look at your local clinic they have low fee or sometimes no fee therapy. You can look at services like the online services, the apps that you know where you can find a therapist. You can do zoom sessions with. You can call your insurance company and you can get a list of therapists in your area, and then you can google them and look at their Yelp reviews, um or their health grades reviews. You can ask friends. There are so many ways to

find therapists. And you can call a therapist and if they say I can't see I'm not seeing anybody right now, I'm full, ask them if they have a referral for you, and they probably will. Do you think we can like go back to that guy we originally started seeing. I think you should go to anybody that you feel comfortable with. I will say it's unusual for somebody to start couples therapy and then see somebody individually. It happens, but it's it's not typical, and so you know, maybe you both

want a fresh start. I don't know, but those are the details, and there's no reason you can't call that guy and say, hey, I'm you know I I need a referral of three therapists in the area that you would refer me to. You know that you owe me a referral. There's no reason you can't call back and be persistent about getting the information that you need. You know there, I mean, finding a therapist isn't gonna be hard. You're gonna find somebody as soon as you do the

work to find somebody. It's I mean, she just gave you so many ways to do it, so that that should be your first point of action, you know, get off this call and then make that make that call. Yeah, And it sounds like your partner is sort of looking

a little bit for a quick fix. And as you've mentioned, it's a trauma like it's we would love if there was a quick fix, and we would love if just like sure, like micro dressing might make them feel better, but it's not going to deal with the underlying issue

and it's not going to help heal the underlying pain. Yeah, but I feel you and I feel your pain, and I hope that the next time we speak to you that you're in a better place and that you've made some strides in the right direction, because you have the power to do that, you know what I mean, You're in charge of your happiness. Nobody else is going to come in and make you happy. You have to do that.

And and and lastly, I would just say, you can have compassion for somebody's history, and you can have compassion for their trauma, but that doesn't mean that that is the right situation for you. And again, you won't know until you, guys, understand more about who you are. But I feel like, you know, like you're saying, well, he's the one suffering, and I don't. I shouldn't really be able to you know, I shouldn't have all these feelings.

You do have all these feelings, and you really, you know, so many times I see people stay with somebody or stay in a situation where someone's not getting helped for their issue. It would be very different if he was saying, I'm going to actively work on this trauma and healing this trauma and I'm going to go do that work. But it sounds like he's kind of just being very passive about it right now. Yeah, And I think, Chelsea, you're saying, I should I am in charge of my happiness.

But then now I'm like realizing on this call, like how much pain it really is like for me. So I think I needed to realize that to be more action oriented for myself. So thank you, guys, Well, thank you for thank you, and I wish you lots of luck and and you know, and good vibes. I'm sending you lots of good vibes. Thank you, And if we ever do talk again, I'll try to figure out the dog situation so she's not yapping all the time. You could just put her down, that's fine, Thank you so much.

To figure out that therapist situation. Yeah, exactly, that's their first point of interest. Okay, good, thank you do that. She's so sweet. So hard to see someone in pain, you know, and they don't realize that they're in pain until you tell them, but you can and then you see them tear up as we can see right now, and it's kind of like, oh, your body is telling you something that you are haven't been able to acknowledge. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back

with Lori Gottlieb. Okay, thank you. So to wrap up today's episode, Well that was heavy, but you know, worthwhile. I think I hopefully we lit a fire under her butt to go do something about the situation that she's found herself in. H Yeah. Yeah. Do you find yourself, Lauria, like, how much time do you have to take in between seeing people? Do you find yourself ever really impacted so much that it's hard for you to go onto the

next thing? Yeah? I definitely take more than a like a commercial break, right, that's a good way to end a session that we have to go to commercial. Yeah, unless you want to do ten minutes of commercial and then we'll come back, because that's usually how much time I have between sessions. Yeah. Well, LORI, did you have any advice you wanted to ask from Chelsea? See? I never get to do this, so this is my favorite part.

I was really excited for this part. One thing that I was thinking about when you were talking earlier about when you get ready, you know, to do something. You were talking about centering yourself. I I'm wondering. You know, you're on tour right now. You're getting up in front of these very large crowds. Do you ever get nervous? And if you do, what do you do with your anxiety? You know what I did this this tour. I didn't drink for the first probably four weeks of my shows.

I didn't do anything. I didn't use any crutch like any like I sometimes would take a beta blocker, but

I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I had to be completely present, and I noticed that the nerves were there for about the first six or seven performances, and then I just strolled right into what I do for a living, Like I I took away all of those things because I'm at a point where I'm constantly trying to challenge myself to deliver the best show to the people that paid money, that are taking time out of their schedule to see me. I there was a period of time where I would perform and I never

considered the people that were coming to see me. You know. It was about me going out there, doing a great show and then going on to the next thing. So now my perspective has shifted to in a way that I wanted to deliver the best stuff I have, you know, and honor the people that are coming to see me. So, yeah, I get nerves, but I I've noticed that challenging those nerves and just walking through it has been the biggest

strength exercise that I've ever had. It's better than a drink, it's better than a joint, and it's better than a beta blocker. And some people really do need a beta baker for ship, you know, people who aren't used to public speaking. But my therapist said to me, you know, when you're nervous about something, that means you care, and I think about that every single time I walk out. I'm like, Okay, if I'm nervous about something, that means I care. And that's a good reminder that that nerves

aren't necessarily the worst thing, you know, they fuel you. Yeah, people say that about test taking too, or you know, and you're like a job interview or a first date that you're nervous about. That if you do feel nervous, it does mean that you care. And I think what you did was sort of like exposure therapy, you know, where it's kind of like if you're afraid of something, you do the thing and you find out the disaster didn't befall you, and then you can do it again

and you're like, oh, look, catastrophe didn't happen. I can do it again. Right, that's really helpful. Yeah. And then a couple of weekends ago, I went and had a drink before I performed, and I got off stage, I'm like, no, I don't like that anymore. I like to be as clear as possible. So that's a huge victory lap for a number of reasons. Yeah. Yeah, No, that's really helpful I think for anybody with anxiety. Yeah, well, thank you so much. Laurie was so nice to have a real

professional on today, somebody with a degree. Yeah, no, thank you, thank you. I I love your show. I I listened to it for advice all the time. So thank you for helping all of the therapists and non therapists out there. Oh well, thank you. I hope to see you again in person sometime soon. Yeah, thanks so much, great to see you. Take care bye. Well, that was really good. And speaking of the tour that Laurie mentioned, Chelsea, do you have some dates who'd like to tell us about? Oh?

My god, always, always, I have. February second and third are my Seattle shows. We have added second shows to a lot of markets, but those are the immediate dates coming up. Oh also, were we added Philly? So come to Philly or Honolulu or Kauai or no Maui ship who knows? Anyway? Does that answer your question, Katherine, It absolutely does. Um And also check Chelsea's website, so yeah, go to chelsea dot com. I've never been to it, but I think it's a good time. It's simple, it's visible,

it works well. Good. Thank you, Thank you, Catherine. If you say so, I believe you. Well that's all we have for today's episode. Okay, well that was a definite therapy session. We will see you next week. Guys. Bye by and if you like to get advice from Chelsea and one of her guests, please write into Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com.