A High Ratio of Predators with Katie Couric

It popped up on my Instagram this morning. And not that I read the Daily Mail because I don't. But we don't want us brother that, no, we don't. But my Orca, I think, just comes to me. You know, since our phones are all eavesdropping on me, can you believe that it is snowing. I'm in Whistler right now and it is snowing. Well, it's snowed last week in Los Angeles, in my backyard. So that's the world is over everyone. So we're just going to end this podcast

right now because everyone should just take shelter. Good Bye. Hope you have enough owning Barrico to get you through. Oh my god, that's insane, I know, and I've heard LA is just the worst right now. Oh my god, it's been like pouring rain. My puppies have been like trying to potty train them. They're like, there's nowhere to go. It's flooded. So it's been interesting. I saw some kids surfing down the street in a Tuckerware bucket the other day.

There was like the rivers going down the street and the gutters, and then there was a kid pulling another kid on a mini bike and the other kid was in like a Tuckerware tub and they were just zooming down the street. So that's that's the state of affairs right now. Listen. If you can't have a little fun and a Tuckerware tub, where can you find it. We went night skiing the other night after my birthday. We

all decided it was snowing, snowing. It snowed like twenty centimeters whatever that means in America, and we were like all together, we went to apray and then everyone's like, let's go up to the top of the parking lots and have someone drop us off and then we could just ski down at night because it was all fresh and so like. Ten of us did it. It It was so much fun. Oh my god, it's nothing better than being in the snow at night. I don't know why.

It's so beautiful the best. It is so beautiful. And I also had a great birthday this year. Again. I love celebrating my birthday and Whistler. It's got all my ingredients, skiing, capre skiing, Margarita's skiing, other Margarita's. Oh when I had my niece Charlie up here, who is a dream boat, such guy. She's ridiculous. She is just so cute and funny, and we skied. We should. We had her charging by the end of the week, and well she was here

for like four days a solo. And then my friend Nick, who is my director on Chelsea Does, she was my DP. She came up and it was just so fun. I love I love having one on one time with my nieces and nephews. It's the best. I got shot down by a niece this week. Rejection from children is fierce. I know teenagers are trouble. Another reason not to have them,

you know exactly exactly. It's like, if they're tiny, they're pooping, if they're three, they're mean to you, right, terrible twos, terrible threes, and then they turn into teenagers immediately after that, but no one tells you. They starts smelling at like eight smelling. Yeah, they start smelling bad at like eight. Well the boys, oh really, girls start smelling really I think girls start getting stuck. Oh oh, like tricky situation.

I speaking of smelly. I went three days without taking a shower and skiing while I was up here because we had such a full house and it was NonStop action. And finally, like yesterday or the day before, everyone left and we went skiing again. I was like okay, And then I was like, okay, guys, I'm going home after skiing today, like no Appray, Like I'm wrecked for my birthday. I'm so tired. My body's aching. We had a huge

powder day, so my thighs were burning. Yeah, and then of course, you know, they persuaded me to go to Appray. Twist my cut to one in the morning, I'm getting opped off at my house and we had adopted a giant baby, my friend Kelly and I her friend. We've decided he was our baby and he had to come sleep in one of our extra guest rooms, and I was like, wait, what happened. It's like the whole day got away from me. That's how it goes. I know's

how one drink so yesterday. So I'm hibernating this week until my next batch of visitors come, which is Friday. And then we got you out of bed at seven in the morning. That's okay. I you know, I get up early anyway. I'm always up. Okay. So our guest today has a book out that you may have read. It's called Going There. Her daily newsletter is called wake Up Call. I get that every morning. It's a mix

of news, culture and advice. She's the EP which is an executive producer of the new documentary No Ordinary Campaign, which is debuting at south By Southwest, and she is host of her podcast which is called Next Question. Please Welcome Katie Kirk. I Katie, what are you doing on the floor? Oh? Because we don't have a place to do this, so I'm just going to sit on the floor and honestly, it'll be fine, it will be comfortable.

What are you two girls up to that you have that you're both sleeping in the same room and have nowhere else to record she's not sleeping in here, she's sleeping in the guest room. But we're in this big kind of echoe house and we thought this would be the best room. Is it? Is it? Okay? Yeah? Well that horrors there. It looks so weird, Atrianna, but I think it's a good look for you, Katie. It'll switch things up. People will be surprised by the way. My dad would say, it looks like I combed my hair

with an egg beater. Hi, Hi, Hi, This is Katherine, my producer. I know Catherine. Hi, Catherine Hike. Oh, yes, you guys know each other because she's gonna be working with you now. She's gonna be helping us, which is also she's so great in my yelling. Oh sorry, I'm yelling. I'm yellow. Oh that's nice that you have someone who will tell you that. Oh my god, Katie, where did we start? Let's figure this out. How did we first meet? Was it an interview? I think it might have been

an interview. I'm trying to remember when I took you to the White House Scorres Fund It's oh yeah, it was really that was our first date. It was and I think I just reached out to you because I thought you were fun and funny and that you would get a kick out of going to the White House Scorres fund It's dinner, which we did. We got a big kick out of it. That was a fun night. Remember we ended up in a car with two real randoms. I don't even remember. I remember who Do you remember

who they were? I don't remember. The whole thing is a little bit of a blur to me, but I remember it was cute, Chelsea, because you were very nervous. Do you remember that? No, no, no, no, tell me, you were kind of I think you felt out of your element and you had never been to something like that and you were just a little a little jittery. And it was really sweet. And who else came that year? Was that the year Betty White came? And she was also my guest? Oh yeah, yeah, we all sat at

the same table. Yeah, so I felt like I had the coolest table in the room. That's a cool event, actually, the White House Correspondence Center. It's really really like a fun, fun night because it's not a lot of Republicans go, if any, and so that's always a win. Well, that was sort of back in the day. It was pretty bipartisan, honestly, and I think when Trump became president, I think they

stopped having them. Then there was the pandemic, and so it used to be a really kind of jocular bipartisan affair, and it was really fun because the president hits up and makes a really funny speech and it was a lot of fun. And then I think we went to the party. Did we go to the party at the French embassy that Bloomberg usually hosted or yes, yes, yes, that's where we went. I remember us being in a car with someone really really famous, like a famous director

or somebody I can't even remember. Yeah, I can't remember for either who was that? And then I looked to my left and it was another random and I've just thought this is one of those nights. But we had a couple of those nights because we had our Woody Allen Knight, which we've both talked about, where we accidentally had dinner with Woody Allen and SUNI and some other unmentionables. Should we retell that story because or do you feel like everybody's heard it? I know you put it in

your comedy routine. I think everybody has heard it, But I mean there's no well you know what you tell it, because I haven't heard you tell it. I've accepted the book of course. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I was working at CBS News. It was I believe was it January or February or something like that. In the winter, Chelsea, You and I had made plans to have dinner, which

I was really looking forward to. I got an email from Peggy Siegel, who was this sort of big publicist who's kind of fallen from grace now, and she said, would you like to have dinner at the largest single family home in Manhattan? And I was like, well that sounds in preaking, you know, be interesting to see some big, beautiful home where people usually live in pretty small apartments in New York City. So I said, okay, great, and

she said it's going to be honoring Prince Andrew. George Stephanopolis is going to be there, and she mentioned some other newspeople and I thought, oh boy. Well, the royal wedding was coming up that spring and William and Kate were getting married, and I thought, you know, any end to a member of the royal family is a good inn. Well that turns out all that's what that's what she said. But anyway, so I thought, gosh, I should probably go to this, and I called you and I said, Chelsea,

I've just been invited to this dinner. Do you want to go? It sounds like it might be interesting. It's for Prince Andrew. I don't know if I even mentioned that when I called you. I think I must have, and I said do you want to go? And you were like, sure, why not? So I was dating someone at the time, so he came to it turns out, and I googled him as I almost got there. I think I met you there, but I remember googling Jeffrey Epstein and thinking, oh, well, he was convicted of something

in Florida. It sounded sleazy, but it didn't sound horrible and criminal and disgusting as now we know his behavior was. So I thought, oh, this is pretty sketchy, but I guess I'm in now. And so we walked in and there was this whole assortment of people, including George Stephanopolis I believe Charlie Rose was there, and yes, Woody Allen and Sunny and it was probably about what would you say, Chelsea, like twenty four people. Oh, I remember it being so

much smaller. But you know, my memory is not great because I didn't even remember that you brought a date. So really, yeah, it was it John, No, it was Brooks, the good young guy I was dating. Okay, Okay, So no, I thought it was a small party, like eight or ten people. No, No, No, well, I think actually it's probably somewhere between ten and twenty four. I think I own remember the key players, is why I remember bring it.

I remember Charlie Rose walking out, just shitfaced, leaving his coat, and then coming back an hour later, because you and I were leaving, and apparently Brooks we were leaving, and then he came back and he was kind of like walking down the street, very disoriented, and he was like, I'm looking for my coat. I'm looking. I'm like, oh, I had no idea. So many people were such a hot mess, you know. I like Charlie Rose acts like this at that time. He was a respectable newsman too,

So I remember that much from the night. But I remember kind of sitting in I almost think like a horseshoe shaped table situation, maybe in the living room. And I titled that chapter of my book Lasagna Was Served, because they served lasagna in these sort of shallow bulls. And then before that he'd kind of given us a tour of the house, and I remember he had those stubbs and wooten velvet slippers on and torn jeans and like a velvet maybe a velvet blazer, and he was

holding a drink. And I really didn't know very much about him. I remember the artwork being were weird. But after dinner, that's when you went up to Woody Allen. I was at the end of dinner because I remember the living are. We were all seated because I kept from seeing all these people walk in. You know, when I saw Woody Allen and SUNI walk in, I remember going, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is this? And then I didn't obviously know Jeffrey

either Epstein. I knew Prince Andrew. I know who Peggy Siegel is, yeah, and I don't remember him being there at all. George, No, Charlie Rose is the other person I remember, and then I feel like there was one other. But I know when you just said that, I was like, oh he was there. Yeah, Well that's great to know. Good information. What a high ratio of predators, though, I know when I look back I'm like, oh my god. Almost every person in that room was canceled. Yeah, it

felt like the den of an equity or something. But after dinner, Chelsea, everyone was sort of sitting around, and I remember seeing a friend of mine who's a doctor who knew Jeffrey Epstein talking to him and a female doctor, really beautiful woman. And then Chelsea walks up to Woody Allen and Sunny and I don't think I heard you say it. You just told me later and said, I you know, I'm Chelsea Handler. And you started chit chatting and you said, how did you two meet? Now you

knew how they met? Right, you were just well, of course I was giving it to him. But it was at dinner when we were getting dessert. We were seated at the table because I was seated right across from them, and I was next to you. You were on my right, and they were across from me, And the whole time at dinner, all I was waiting was to say something to him, because as a woman, I was like, there's no way that I'm not going to say something to him to make him know that he's out completely out

of line. But you did hear me, because you said, Okay, Chelsea, time to go. Katie mentioned that this happened. I was like, wait, that was real. She really said that. It wasn't just a bit. I just figured it was like a bit. Oh No, that part I remember perfectly because because I had to contain myself for so long throughout the dinner to not embarrass everybody, you know what I mean as a guest, I was like, how do I play this?

And I remember because I was talking to Woody Allen during the dinner trying to be friendly, and we were talking about stand up and movies and all of it. And I was like, oh. And then I was like, don't don't do this. Don't get sucked in and think that you like somebody. You don't like this person, you don't like them. I had to have this internal dialogue with myself the whole time. Yeah, and I was definitely

tipsy because I'm me one weird. Thing I remember is when we left, Brooks looked at me and said, did you notice how young the girls were who were taking our coats? Oh? God, so he noticed, well he did, and he mentioned it to me. So now, in hindsight, that's a very perceptive and really upsetting comment m. Yeah, yeah, and we've been through We've hung out a lot of times because we had boyfriends that both had places, right, we were both spending time in Shelter Island for a while.

You were about to get married, and I've met your daughters, who you know are fabulous and so yeah, we've known each other for many, many years. Yeah, and of course I follow you from Afar and love watching you not only with your Santa, but I'm obsessed with your Instagram. So I enjoyed watching you skiing and your bikini recently. You're a good skier, Chelsea. Oh thanks, I've been you know what, Katie, I've been working so hard at becoming a good skier. It was like my dream as a

little kid. I was like, I just want to be a great skier. Well, you have very good form in every way, but I you know, when did you start? Because I started skiing at forty five. I'm sixty six now and I can ski okay, like I can do a semi easy blue, but I have never felt that freedom, that total relaxation that good skiers feel. Yeah, it's just

time spent. Right. I bought a place in Whistler, and I just spent months here at a time and just skiing over and over with an instructor, you know, a former racer who's giving me technique, so I'm not just running around the mountain like a lunatic. And that's helped a lot too. I think part of the problem, Chelsea is I only ski once a year. Yeah, it's hard to improve when you're ending. You don't put the effort in,

or you don't have the time. I have to tell you my instructor is my father in law, Herb, and Herb is ninety one and he, oh, don't tell anyone, he's still a ski instructor in Aspen. Oh my god. Really, how cute is that he is? Well, he is the most amazing person. I mean, he is in incredible shape. Not only does he carry his skis, he carries mine. He is obviously an excellent ski or. He's been doing

this for like forty years. He was in business and he cashed out, and his boys, one of whom is my husband, thought oh he's going to do this for a little while. No, forty five or fifty years later, he's still doing it and he's just amazing, and he's so much fun to be with. And he has helped me become a mediocre skier. Yeah. Yeah, And I like mountain culture, you know, like I like the idea of going for a run, having a nice leisurely lunch, then

going for more skiing and then app right. Like I just I'm home every night by seven thirty or eight o'clock most exhausted. I exhausted, and then I get a massage or I read at night. I mean, I'm just so happy in my little winter cabin life that I've created for myself. So are you there by yourself? Do you bring friends or people come through? I bet your sister comes right. Yeah, my niece was just here for my birthday. My friends were here, they just all left.

So then I have a couple of down days and then I have a new group coming in this weekend. Fun. So yeah, people come through all the time. It's really fun. Oh that's great. Where have you been spending your vacation time? Do you guys go to the Hampton's mostly in that area. Right now, we're in a rental property in Los Angeles.

So for the past five or six years, during the dog days of winter in New York, we've usually come out here for six weeks to two months, because now when you can work remotely, and now that we have our own company and everything, I don't have to be in a studio. So that's been a really nice change of pace. But it is the weather Chelsea here. I know. I can't believe you just said you were in LA. I would have thought I would thought you were going to say you're in the Happens or something. It is

so bad in La right now. It's the worst time. I have a very good piece of good news to report because it's sunny right now, and I can't believe it. Atriana, who works with me, who's here for a couple of days, that she feels like she's taken a party drug. So let's talk about John and talk about your marriage a little bit, because you guys have a very great thing going and he's a great support ballast for your life

as well as you to him. Well, we're gonna talk about your cancer advocacy work also because you lost your first husband to cancer, you lost your sister, and this is a very important kind of lifelong project for you. Just so I feel part of the whole mission. I got cancer too, exactly, So tell us what the update on that is the cancer. John, Well, let's talked about the cancer first. Okay, all right, I kind of ruined the flow, didn't I let's talk about your health first.

My health is good. And by the way, Katie, I've let me just interrupted. I had no idea you were sixty six years old. You are so cute, you have never not and I know that you talked about in your book how annoying it is to be cute. But I have to say, like, you have one of those faces that you will never look old. I don't know about that, Chelsea. No, you don't. You just look you always look young, like it doesn't matter what your age is. I do have kind of a young vibe, kind of

a yeah yeah, lively young vibe. So thank you. You're nice to say that. But in terms of my health, I'm fine, Knockwood only because when I was diagnosed with this, Chelsea, I wasn't that surprised because cancer has been such a fixture in my life. But I felt so lucky because both Jay and Emily were diagnosed with stage four cancer.

And it's all about when you're diagnosed. That's why I've been on my sort of relentless advocacy about screening because if you detect cancer early, that's when it's most treatable, right when it hasn't metastasized what it hasn't spread through your body and landed on another another organ. So I didn't realize I hadn't gone for my annual mammogram, went

and got a mamogram, didn't expect anything weird. But my breast radiologist, who's I think one of the best in the world, Susan Drossman, said, you know how the technician calls the doctor in and they're looking at the scan. And I have always gotten an ultrasound because I have very dense breasts, which can only be indicated on a mamogram, and forty five percent of women forty and over have

what are considered dense breass. And dense breass mean that the breast density the tissue shows up white in the mamograham, So it makes it very hard for the radiologists to identify a tumor or an abnormality. As Susan says, it's like looking for a snowball against a backdrop of snow. So I've always gotten pressed ultrasounds and we were videotaping it to do a little tape piece on the importance of getting screened. And Adriana, who's here with me now,

who's sort of we're like freakin frack. She Susan said, you need to stop filming. You know. She was filming on her iPhone and we were just going to put together a little piece. And I said, no, it's okay, she can keep filming. And she's like, no, tell her to stop. And so she said, I'd see something very suspicious. I'm going to do a biopsy this afternoon. Can you stick around? Long story short, it was after getting a lump back to me, a stage one a hormone receptor

positive breast tumor. So I got radiation for fifteen days, a lump back to me prior to the radiation, and then you take something called an aromatase inhibitor for five years, which suppresses the estrogen. The biggest bummer about this, so my cancer, as my surgeon said, is the good one. It's not only treatable, it's curable. The only bummer about it is I desperately miss my estrogen. Well that's my next question. Yes, how does that affect someone of your age?

Because we need HRT at a certain age. YEA right. Well, I had been on hormone replacement therapy, although my doctor says she does not think that contributed to my breast cancer. But I was on the patch for probably ten years. So I had to take the patch off immediately. And now I take these pills that further suppress estrogen. And what can I say, it sucks. Estrogen is a wonder hormone. It helps with brain fog, it helps with skin dryness,

dryness everywhere, if you know what I'm saying. And so it's not fun, but it's a small price to pay considering what other people go through. What have been the worst kind of or the biggest side effects that you've had. I think, you know, I have very dry skin, and I had when I was a little girl, I had egzema, like on my arms, and so I was starting to get really dry skin even when I was on the patch.

So I think it's just made it worse. And so that's really the most significant I know it sounds stupid, but it's bothersome. Does it help if you're just constantly glathering up your face like you know, sah done moisturizer. It does, But I just don't do that. You know, I'm kind of lazy and land and you know, I'll do it after I get out of the shower, and then I'll it's just not something I do. I should do it every night before I go to bed and all that, but I'm usually too tired and too lazy.

But you know, I haven't noticed a problem with brain fog. Sometimes, I like a lot of people my age, and anyone my age listening will know that I kind of have to think of words or I don't quite have the recall I used to have. I saw somebody at Craig's the other night who's a very big guy in the TV industry, and I was like, oh, I can't remember his name, and then I saw LaVar Burton, which was very exciting. But so I really haven't noticed much of

a change. And you know, it's hard because as you get older, it's hard to parse out like what's causing what. And I'm stiff and my joints are kind of stiff. I do a lot of pilates. But is that because of the estrogen then I'm not taking or is it

just sort of a natural part of aging. So one of the things I really wanted to come out of my breast cancer diagnosis is I want women to a find out if they have dense breasts, to be their own advocates, find out if they have dense breasts, and then ask if they can do additional screening because a lot of breast cancers are missed in women with dense breast because mammograms aren't sufficient. So I went down to Capitol Hill and did a press conference with a congresswoman

from Connecticut named Rosa do Loro. She introduced legislation John makes fun of me, goes, who do you think you are? Nancy Pelosi? But she introduced legislation that will require insurance companies to cover breast ultrasounds in women with dense breasts, because right now many of them don't, and of course many women can't afford it. So I just want women to really be smart about their testing and make sure that they get all the screening they need. Thank you

for this public service announcement. I'm king no, thank you for this public service announcement. Let's talk about your relationship and meeting someone later in life in the way that you did, and how that's impacted your family dynamic with your girls, and with you and how this is different, you know obviously than your prior relationship. Every relationships different. Sorry, some of the highs and like inspirational things that you

can share with us for people who are listening. Well, it's been a joy and I've really I'm so happy that I met John and that we found each other. You know, he's just a good company. He's fun to be with. Of course, occasionally get on each other's nerves. He bugs me, I bug him, but he's really he's just a solid person. He is a happy person. He loves adventure, although he's kind of boring with his restaurant choices. We go kind of a square mile around our apartment.

I'm like, muhlnerd, can we like mix it up a little bit? But he's got a great family. They have been an additional gift. He's one of three boys. And you know, I love his parents. Both my parents have died and Jay's parents died a number of years ago. So Herbie and Paula treat Ellie and Carry like their granddaughters. I mean, they really think of them as their granddaughters. You know. It was hard because Ellie, Carrie and I

were like the three Musketeers for so long. And when we got engaged, they came out to the Hampton's and I took them into a room and I showed them my engagement ring and they both burst into tears, and they weren't really happy tears. I think they were just shocked and worried that this was going to change things. But of course it hasn't. He's just enriched our lives. And he's got two wonderful kids as well. And we're

too old to be the Brady bunch. You know. My kids are grown, his kids are grown, but they all have a really nice relationship, and I just feel extraordinarily lucky. But I tell everyone, since I know this is an advice show, is you know, you have to be intentional if you want a partner, and I'm kind of a partner person. You have to tell people. You have to

ask people. So when I asked my friend Molly heal Fit at spinning class if her husband, who was the chief of trauma surgery at the Hospital for Special Surgery, I said, Molly, does Dave know any doctors? I'm so did in medicine and science. I've learned so much about cancer. I think i'd enjoy dating a doctor, and she said, we don't have I don't think we know any doctors, but we do know this banker named John Muhlner. And I was like, does he have a pulse? Has he

been to has he ever been to a doctor? Because that will all suci And so he finally called me, and he was funny. You know, right away he just had an easiness and a fun personality and I just liked him immediately felt comfortable. He was from Chicago. I like midwesterners, Chelsea. They're just a little different in a good way. They're just less pretentious. I know that's such a generalization about millions of people, but anyway, so it's all worked out and I'm really happy, and as I said,

I feel very, very very lucky. And also I think what you said as a salient point is having your girl's reaction thinking there's going to be some sort of subtraction, and instead there's an enhancement. And addition, everything he's bringing to the table is actually wonderful. His parents, you know, his kids, all of those things, and those elements, his intelligence.

You know, he's the CEO of our company. He's got he's a great businessman, you know, working with your partner spouse is not always easy, and we're both pretty strong willed, but his skills in building this company, Chelsea, we have like forty plus employees. We're working with purpose driven brands. I have a podcast, we have a newsletter. We have a million subscribers newsletter, which is great, you guys. I

read it every single morning, Chelsea wake up Call. It's called So if you haven't signed up for that, please do. It's a great way to get your news in the morning. And it's got a mix of everything, so it's not like just you're just reading about politics. It's got like pop culture and health and wellness and yes and human interest stories, all of those things. So yeah, you go to Katiekirk dot com to sign up shameless plug. But anyway, that's that's John. Yeah, well, thank you for making sure

we spoke of about him. Okay, So we have a couple of letters that people have written in and then then I think we have one live call Captain tell us what we're in store for Well, I mean it's all on the themes that we've touched on today. It's relationships and starting over, it's breast cancer. So Katie I know you have talked about it all, so I thought these questions would be perfect for you. Okay, great, great, but we'll take a quick break and we'll be right

back with Katie and Chelsea. And we're back. We're back. Well today, I thought we might start with our caller. She's a teacher, so we got to get her back to her students. But she says, dear Chelsea. I got together with my husband ten years ago after two years of close friendship. In that time, my husband battled a heroin addiction. For the first five years of our relationship, he was in and out of rehab and recovery. Although it wasn't easy, I do think him being in recovery

made me a better person. I learned to focus on myself. I learned how to set better boundaries in all my relationships, and through it all, our relationships still remained a very good one. We've always communicated well, loved each other sincerely, and had a relationship based on true friendship. In July twenty twenty one, we decided to finally get married. Our wedding day was the happiest day of my life, and since our wedding day, we've been having a true honeymoon period.

The amount of love we have for each other is honestly overwhelming. Things were finally looking up after years with dealing with the drama of relapse and recovery. He had found stability in sobriety, a good job, and Hay had goals. We bought a house together last September, and things were going better than I had ever imagined. Then in December, I found out he was sleeping with this coworker. This is something I never saw coming and could not have

prepared myself for. We went from mentioning daily how grateful we were for each other to him moving out and pursuing a relationship with another much younger by the way woman. To say and devastated is an understatement. This feels to me a lot like a relapse. It happened suddenly after he stopped taking care of himself, going to meetings, and communicating with his sponsor and friends in recovery. I married him fully knowing that there was a possibility he could relapse,

but I never knew how this could happen. Since he moved out just before Christmas, he has moved into an apartment, continued dating as coworker, and basically ignored my existence. He's given me no indication that he's interested in working on himself or our relationship. But I'm having such a hard time letting him go. Do I wait for him to figure his shit out? Do I move on? How do I let go? Elizabeth? God, that is so sad, so brutal.

Hi Elizabeth, you're here, Oh, Hi, Elizabeth. I'm so sorry, Elizabeth, this happened. And I can imagine how devastating this is. And it sounds like you were so important to his journey and then to have this happened is awful. By the way, you look so young. How could this woman be much younger? What is she eleven? And how old are you? I want to echo what Katie said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Heartbreak is the way it feels like it's the worst thing and that it is

the most unrecoverable thing. But it is not, and you will recover. And I said this the other day to my friend and because we were talking, and I know, it's like, sometimes when we can't get ourselves out of situations by ourselves, the universe has a way of getting us out of those situations. And even though it doesn't feel like he's doing you a favor, and he has several issues with drugs, with the cheating, with all of

these things. This is a way for you to have him out of your life and really reassess, I think what drew you to him in the first place, what allowed you to trust him in the first place and have so much faith in him, and kind of recalibrate what you're willing to accept in the future moving forward, or whether it's him coming back in six months, which is a possibility, and you have to decide what you're going to do with that if and when that happens, and if it doesn't happen, what are you going to

do to prepare yourself to be in a real, loving relationship that is reciprocal where you don't have to worry about somebody going off the rails because it was intense, intense, intense, intense, and then disappear like that's not what any responsible human does. You sit down and you have a conversation saying, I'm having these feelings for another person or I've acted on these feelings and I'm confused. You don't just take off and ignore this person that's been by your side I agree.

I mean, it sounds so cruel that he You know, people do fall in love with other people, it happens. But the fact that he has been so cruel and callous and completely cut you out of his life. But one thing I wanted to say that Chelsea mentioned is it's so interesting who we're drawn to. You know, were you drawn to him because you wanted to save him, that you wanted to fix him, that you wanted to

help him. Is there something in your past, in your relationships with your family or with your parents, that maybe make you gravitate to people like this who are sort of dangerous and living on the edge. And even if he was getting better, I thought it was interesting too that you described this as a relapse, like maybe one addiction replacing another, the high of almost an illicit romance replacing the high of drugs. And I don't know much about that, but I thought that was an interesting use

of words, did you, Chelsea? Yeah, absolutely, it does sound like a transference, right, like you go from one thing to the other. Do you know if he's had a relapse. I don't think he's used drugs or alcohol. A lot of the like warning signs of a relapse. We're coming up. Before I found out, which is how I found out, I started getting a little bit suspicious. I thought that he relapsed on drugs, and then I found out that it was an affair. And like I've spoken to his sponsor.

His sponsor agrees it's very much like relapsed behavior. But he's in such denial, like he does not want to hear it, and he gets super defensive anytime anybody accuses him of needing mental health help right now? And when was the last time you spoke with him? Well, I spoke with him on Sunday because he wants to talk about Dad. But he did tell me on Sunday that he's no longer with that girl, but that he still

doesn't want to be married to me anymore. And you have this house together, yeah, And so what's the plan there? Have you gotten that far yet? I know I'm not moving. I'm not selling the house. I put a significant portion of my savings into the house, like the down deposit, and it wouldn't make any sense for me to move because rent anywhere I have to dogs, and rent anywhere with two dogs would be more expensive than what my

mortgage is. But he's under the impression that we'll just sign papers and he'll get off scot free and just live a life that has no repercussions for his actions. I mean, I feel like his behavior alone is going to help you get through this quicker, as painful as it feels. He's like disassociating himself from your prior relationship. And I do think you are dodging a major bullet

of like more pain and more grief. I don't think that you should be holding onto the idea that maybe you guys can reconcile, because hey, he needs a ton of therapy and you don't have time for that. Like I would rather see you take this time to really get centered and grounded and read all the books that

you can read about what that means for you. There's a great book I mentioned all the time on this podcast, Letting Go, by David Hawkings, which is very deep and very meta, but it is about letting the world stop

resisting your reality. You know, whatever ever is happening, Just deal with what's happening and the situation without trying to push, move or change it, aligning yourself and it makes recovery at heartbreak so much easier because there are doors that are going to open because of this closure that you haven't seen yet, and life is going to take a different shape for you, and you have to be inspired

by that and move towards that. If you can understand what I'm saying there, Yeah, that's what I'm having a hard time with is just letting go, honestly, especially because it's a relapse, because I married him knowing that he could relapse, but I did not know that an affair could be a relapse. I thought it would be drugs or alcohol in some ways, Are you excusing his behavior and saying, well, this is the personality of an addict. Yeah, And like I married him knowing he was an addict,

and so what is my responsibility? But then again, like I meant my vowels when I said them, and he's broken them, and I don't know even if he came back, where we would land. And you deserve so much better, right, you know, there's I think a lot of women hold on thinking they're going to fix somebody, and that's almost part of the attraction. And I think if he doesn't let you not to go all over on you be your best self and let you pursue your dreams and

be a full and whole person. And if it's all about him and his addiction and his you know, wanting to stay clean and you're so focused on that, what's left over for you? Yeah, I agreed, not much and just the treatment, you know what I mean. This isn't how you treat someone you've spent all this time with, who's been there for you all this time, and that alone is just like you're that's not acceptable to you. You deserve so much better and you deserve to be

standing on higher ground. And by continuing to have this conversation with yourself about what you want moving forward. I understand it's hard to get over someone, but time will heal. You will get over him. You will get over him before you think you will. It always happens, you know. We don't stay in love with the same people for twenty or forty years. And sometimes even if people do, there's people along the way that come in and you know,

shake things up. And I think this is a time for you to dive inward and really do the work on yourself so that you're never in a position where you are vulnerable to a person or an addict like this. Again, you know, yeah, yeah, And I think Katie is right that, you know, he's chasing chaos, whether it's the heroine or another person, or busting up his marriage in this way, whatever it is. And so are you in therapy right now? I am okay good. I mean, you know, we talked

about this a couple of weeks ago. But when you are ready for a new relationship, because it's probably not going to be right away, but when you are going after relationships that feel steadier and feel really not these like extreme highs and lows. The nice thing about that too, is like there's less for you to take care of. You know, you don't necessarily need somebody who can take care of you in that way, but you need someone

who you can take care of each other. It's not just one sided of like I gotta help him be in recovery. I gotta help him get out of this, you know, I gotta help him figure out his life. Now that he's laughed me. I wonder why so many women you all are attracted to chaos chaotic relationships sort of the push pull the where do I stand? I was watching before I went to bed. Sometimes I watch old episodes of sex in the City and Carrie is

dating Aid in it right now. In this episode I was watching and she said, it's so nice, it's so easy, it's so calm, and she was so unhappy about that. And it's interesting when you look at your own self, like why do I what is it about my past or about relationships or about my makeup that makes me want to be in this chaos because ultimately it's just so not fun. But I think when you see that, you can move towards thing that's different than that, especially

with the help of a therapist. I think after five years of sobriety, like we were getting to that point, and that's one of the things he said, Like I was just waking up, going to the gym, going to work, coming home, sitting on the couch watching TV, and I was like, that's life, Like that's where I wanted to be. I want a boring life with somebody. I want somebody that I can just sit on the couch next to

and not necessarily even have to have a conversation. So for me, like we were finally at the point where I was like, great, we own a house. This is our nice, little like boring life together. And it was comfortable and this really just like smacked me in the face out of nowhere. I feel like I'm still reeling from the shock. It's interesting what some people consider contentment other people consider boredom. Right, I would be with you because those are the things I'm interested in as well.

Sitting on the couch watching TV at the end of the day and not fucking talking to anybody. That is also my idea of perfect relationship. You know, too much talking drives me crazy. It's like I make a living talking, so I like quiet, you know as much as I like talking. Do you relate to that, Katie, like everyone just to stop? Yeah, I love quiet too. I feel like you that it's contentment to be able to I used to be so sad when I saw people out to dinner and not talking, and that still makes me

sad when I see couples. But there's something when you're comfortable enough to not have to talk all the time, when you just find comfort in each other's presence and it doesn't feel forced or awkward. That to me is my sweet spot. That's where I want to be in a relationship, and that's what I found, and it is possible to find it and you know, I think you deserve a drama free relationship. That's what you want, and that's what you should go out and find. And I

was saying earlier to Chelsea and Catherine. You know, when I look for a partner, I'm pretty intentional about it. I don't think I'm going to run into somebody at a bookstore, you know, perusing the new novels. I think that you have to network. You have to say to people, I'm interested in meeting new people. And it may not

even be for love connections. It may be just for expanding your social circle, learning something new from somebody who's in a completely different profession or has an interesting hobby. And you know, I always say only coffee or a glass of wine, because I don't want to be stuck having dinner with somebody who I just don't feel a connection with it all. But I also try to give them, you know, I try to respect them and appreciate them for who they are, even if they're not somebody I

want to be, you know. Dating there's also a book called It's called Breakup because It's Broken, which is a good breakup book. Write that one down, and then the Letting Go book because I think what you're really talking about is letting go. Yeah, And I think that you know this is an off oportunity. Don't ever forget every disaster, every traumatic experience we have is an opportunity for growth. So you're going to take this opportunity and you are

going to grow, you know what I mean? And you think you have to think about that every single day and use the intention that Katie's referring to as a daily practice for yourself. What am I intentions for today?

To learn more about myself, To be more honest with myself, to be looking for the good in people and the people that are giving the good back to you, and really just you know, taking the time to get yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone in the things that you're reading and learning about yourself, even with your therapy. Really get down to it, and I think that you're going to be in a much better spot sooner than later. And don't lose hope. Just remember that

you are a person of strength. We all have such a deep reservoir of strength within us. Sometimes we have to really pull it out, and this is one of those times where you have to stand on your two feet and don't waiver. His behavior has been unacceptable and there's no way back to him. Yeah, and think of all you have to offer. I think when people get treated this way, they look for deficits in themselves because it's sort of what's wrong with me? What did I

do wrong? Why wasn't I good enough? And it doesn't have anything to do with that. It's not that you have deficits. And I think at a time like this, you have to remember all the great things about you, And as Chelsea said, I think Chelsea would be an excellent purpose by the way, but that you know, to really think about all that you have to offer, not the things that you are suddenly feeling that you don't have.

When you break up and you start to obsess about the other person, what are they doing, what are they thinking, what's their motive? What were they saying? What do they mean when they did this? That is the thinking that it's like, no, no, what do I think? What am I doing? What do I think about him? What do

I think about myself? How did he make me feel? Yeah, it's about you redirect any thoughts you have about about him back to you, because that's who you need to be paying attention to It doesn't matter what he thinks or what he's doing. You're going to stand your ground and you're going to develop as a human being because of this experience. Yeah, you get to be a little bit selfish now, and you should be. That's nice. So

stay busy. I know that, Like even when I lost my husband Jay, and even when I've had sort of dramatic breakups or you know, after long relationships. I think you really have to lean on your female friends and your male friends and really stay busy. Take a trip, go for a hike, take a pottery class. I mean,

just work on yourself. But I think those times where you wake up at three in the morning and you're ruminating and you can't go back to sleep, and I think just staying busy for me was so important during traumatic periods of my life. It's like I'm trying to strike a balance between staying busy and like taking time to feel my feelings, because I think sometimes staying busy makes me avoid my reality a little bit. I feel like I'm performing all the time for other people. Well,

maybe stay busy by yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's good to reflect. I think that's really important. I didn't learn that until I was much older. About sitting by yourself and like allowing the pain to come through, allowing yourself to grieve, you know what I mean, not necessarily relying on other people to make you feel better as a distraction, but kind of working through the pain yourself,

allotting that time each day. Another good book for you to read is attached, because it can probably it will probably be very clear to you what kind of person he is, which sounds avoidant, and it kind of gives you the dynamics between people who are needy or what people are expecting out of relationships, and the attraction that why you're even in a relationship with someone like this.

You know, not that there's anything wrong with you, it's just our patterns of behavior and our patterns of giving love. So yes, please just remember that you're a huge value. Separating is not the end of your world. It's the beginning of a different part of your life. Yep, I'm gonna play this on repeat. Talk Thank you, I appreciate it. I want to get these books too. They sound so interesting. Yeah, they're all just you know, like it just depends what kind of hits you. You know, I've read so many

like breakup or self help books. They kind of go hand in hand. And some of them are deeper, some of them are lighter. There's like The Untethered Soul, which is kind of a light, freely read and that's okay, but that's not the book for me. Like I like deep thinking about like how life gets easier when you accept everything and you just go, oh, that didn't work out, Okay, what else is going to happen? Not belaboring you know, oh what happened when you beat a dead horse like that?

You're stuck. So you're just gonna have to get yourself unstuck. What you're gonna do, and then you're going to report back to us. Okay, thank you so much. Okay, Okay, we love you, Thanks Elizabeth, good luck bye. I love you so much. Thank you. We're gonna be okay. Well she's so sweet too. Just to brag on her for a second, she said, you know, because I was like, oh, man, December, like it's right before the holidays that this all blew up.

And she goes, oh yeah, and he had invited his whole family to come for Christmas, and I go, oh, my gosh, did you guys cancel, she goes No, I just told them he left. I don't know where he's going to be, but you guys are still welcome to come. And so they came and stayed with her. Oh that's sweet. I like that. I know what a sweetheart. She's so nice. I wouldn't I would be like, Nope, you and your family can go fuck off. That's more my style. Yeah,

we took up too much time Katie catching up. Yes, we loved very much on so it's good love it. We probably could have cut that. Well. You know what, we can clarify for now once and for all, because I'll so. The other thing is, I keep getting these people saying I was on his flight log to Epstein Island, and I'm like, I mean, that's why this dinner. Have I ever pretended that I didn't do something that I've done, Like I am the first person to announce it to

the world. So I would like to clarify that neither Katie or myself has ever been on a flight with Jeffrey Epstein. Just a dinner. Yeah, that was my meing that I was on his manifesto like she was on Jeffrey. I'm like, what are they talking about. First of all, it's manifest It's not Manifesto. Sorry sorry sorry wait sorry sorry, Oh, we'll have to edit that out. We can't have me

correct you. I keep reading and people tweeked me you were on Jeffrey Epstein's manifest and I'm like, what I imagine you and I going to that island and then what what are we? What are we up to there? Right? Anyway? That but that's good. So yes, my dinner which Jeffrey, our dinner with Jeffrey is has been discussed once and for all. Okay, great, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back to wrap up. And we're back with Katie, Gerrik and Katherine, and we're wrapping up

today's episode. Well, Katie, is there any advice you'd like from Chelsea? Yeah, Katie, yes, Oh gosh, I'm springing it on you. Oh gosh. Yes, I know. I was supposed to think about that, Katherine, and I think I forgot to think about it. Okay, that's no problem. What about if we just do one more question and then close it up. Yeah, I think that's good. Sure, this is a bit of a heavy one, but it is right up your alleys, so I definitely wanted to get to

this one. This is from Marty. Marty says, Dear Chelsea. I'm the eldest of six sisters and one brother. I'm also a wife and mother to three girls. We're close knit, though a little crazy. My second to youngest sister, who's seven years younger than I, has breast cancer diagnosed back in twenty eighteen. In twenty twenty, the cancer metastasized to her brain, which was a heartbreak. She was given three months to live and there are not a lot of

treatment options. My sister has miraculously lived a quality life for the last two years due to her hard work, support group, and medical advances. However, we're now at a point where her chemotherapy is no longer working. She's on her way to take part in a phase one medical trial, hoping to help others in the future and perhaps also extend her life. My sisters and I have been her cheerleaders throughout this process and have been her confidant in support.

She's an amazing person and sister. I sure hope that her life is extended through the trial, but I'm trying to prepare for the alternative. I want to be there for her, say all the right things and provide comfort, strength and peace. But I don't know how to do this. I don't know what to say. I'm afraid I will say the wrong thing. I want to save her. I don't want this to happen. I'm heartbroken and I need to help myself so I can help her. Can you help?

Give me answers? Thank you, and I hope this note finds its way to you. Marty. You have really smart, sensitive, eloquent listeners. So that was a beautiful letter, and that is a very very I think that is one of the most profound and difficult situations. You know, we as a culture just don't know how to help people die.

You know. I think I wrote a lot about this in my book because I was in a state of denial and was the cheerleader for Jay, despite the fact that I knew that his illness was you know, the likeliness of being cured was almost zero. So you know, they have something called death duelas now, which is really interesting that they helped families and they help people deal with their own mortality. And I think clearly this is an incredibly loving family and I wish that when Jay

was sick. We had had somebody to sit and talk to us and a lat give us space to express our fears and our Jay's hope for the future, for our daughters to be able to have those conversations, which are the hardest conversations you can have. So I have so much empathy and sympathy for that listener, and I think just being there for the person and just surrounding them by love or with love. There was this incredible show on Netflix called From Scratch and kem By Locke

wrote it. It was based on a true story and I watched it and I just cried because her husband died of cancer and the way he was surrounded by love, and the way she was just there for him and she was saying Tiamo, tiamo because he was Italian. It was so moving. I'm started crying thinking about it. And I think families need help with this. You know, nobody reads a book about this, Nobody. It's such a new and painful experience. But I think it can be turned

into something that's truly transcendent us. I think that people need help, and she should get together with her loving sisters and maybe talk about it and talk to someone who specializes in this to say. Kate Bowler has a great podcast. She's been living with colon cancer for a long time. She talks a lot about this this kind of stuff. And I did a whole video with a death duela and with Kate and with another woman who had lost her husband right after they she gave birth

to twins. And it's a very very hard thing. What would you say, Chelsea to this for I think it's really important just to give as much love as possible, you know, to anybody who is leaving this earth. The situation is not in your control, but what you can control is how you deal with the situation and what

you provide. And I think it can be a completely transformative relationship for you to be able to show up for your sister in this way, in this loving way, where it's not about necessarily you losing her right now, it's about you being there for her right now and working through your stuff on your own time with your family.

I think a death duel is a great idea, and also to just start to think about death in a different way, in a way that it doesn't feel like, yes, your sister may be leaving this earth, but her aura. Her spirit is never going to be gone. I can't tell you how often I feel my mother around me. Katie. Do you have that experience with Jay or with your sister that you feel them around you, or that you have a sign when you know, like that they're giving you or anything like that a little bit? You know,

I'm not. I just don't think I'm very receptive to that, Chelsea. Yet. I wish I were. There are moments, but I sometimes think, oh, I'm just imagining that. Yeah, And I think that's true. I think the more open you are spiritually and open hearted you are, the more that you will be able to receive from people once they are not on this earth. You know, the energy just transforms. It never dies. It's not like she's going to go on and live up in heaven or whatever. But her spirit will still survive

because that's the energy that we all have. You know, our spirit goes on and whatever wherever it goes, you know, we'll never know. But I want you to look at it. Try to start looking about it. You know. There's a book called Many Lives, Many Masters, which kind of blows your mind about reincarnation, which I don't really believe in but when I read that book, it's impossible not to.

These are firsthand accounts of people who have been built under hypnosis and then speak Italian for an hour and they didn't even know they could speak Italian, you know, like crazy memories that people have from their lives. So I just I think having that attitude and being open to what the possibilities of life after death are and what that means, so that it doesn't feel yes, you're not going to see her again in her physical form, but that doesn't mean what she's imprinted on you thus

far ever has to disappear. And you have an opportunity now to give her so much love and so much support and really be there for her in a way that is going to elevate you as well, that is going to make you proud of the way that this

takes shape. Whether she passes on or whether she is able to survive, you should be prepared for the prior and that you can be here in this moment as somebody who is going to be holding her hand as she leaves this world, that is going to be there with that kind of love that all that's all you could ever want in this world is to be born

into love and then leave in love. And so I also think Chelsea, you know, just they're obviously a very close family, and I think to be able to have an honest conversation with her sister, like what do you need? I love that you said, don't think about losing her, but just think about being there for her. What do you need? What can I do? What are you afraid of?

I don't know if her sister has children. I mean that's really hard too, you know, talking about even some of the practical concerns that she might have, and just telling her that she is there for her, to help her in any way big and small. And it just we're afraid, you know, we're afraid to say. I wish I had said to Jay, I'm so afraid that you're going to die, And can you leave something for Ellie and Carrie who are two and six and are never

going to know their father truly? And I just think that as a culture, we need to learn the language of loss and of illness and of death, and that we're so afraid of our own mortality. It just it's it's almost paralyzing, Yes, and honoring this time in her life, you know, all the things that Katie just said, and then also having everybody around having a party, having a dinner party, you know, to a celebration of her life. Yeah, that's true. You know, they do living memorial services now

I read. Yeah, you know, and maybe you should talk to someone by my friend Laurie Gottlief, she had she's a therapist. She had a patient with cancer really young, you know, I think she was in her early thirties, and they did a whole celebration of her life while she was living. And you know, maybe that's something as you mentioned, I didn't mean to interrupt, Chelsea, but that that is something you could do for her, if that's

something that would be helpful. Yeah, closure with everyone is so helpful, the whole family member just showing up and just being there for her and every moment and fulfilling her requests whatever they may be. It's going to help you through the rest of your life and your loss too, and your grief and your families. You know. So this is the time when families really have an opportunity to

show up for each other. So I know it's a really difficult situation, but I think you can rise to the occasion and really just be a leader, like, help lead this so that she's as comfortable as possible and gets anything she wants off of her chest or you know, time spent with other family members and her wishes from after she's gone, to honor all of those things, I think will be really helpful in what you're dealing with.

You know, when my mom died, Chelsea, I was just bereft, you know, I was very close to both my parents, and I remember my minister calling, and I go to church, so I'm not super religious, but I really liked my minister and he called to offer his condolences, and I told him I was just felt like an untethered Helian balloon, you know, I just was sort of unmoored. And he said, remembered those who love deeply, grieved deeply, and it kind of turned a switch in me, and it made me

go from immense sadness to immense gratitude. Obviously, this letter was written by someone with a very loving relationship with her sisters, and to kind of take a moment and appreciate that is also very comforting. Indeed, we ended on a really difficult note, but I think so many of us go through something like this that it's going to be really helpful to a lot of people. So thank you for sharing. Thank you Katie for sharing. It's always nice to see you. I love you. I hope I

see you in person sooner than later. I hope so too, because there's so much I want to talk to you about and ask you about. And yeah, I have to say, Chelsea, I really appreciate listening to you give advice because you're very wise, and you're very smart, and I think you're extremely helpful to a lot of people. Not to mention highly entertaining, we didn't even talk about tuckered carsons. Oh my god. Oh I think that's apt because he doesn't

deserve anymore. As my daughter said, that's all they have. That's all they have, or these culture wars, and that's all they can talk about. And it's just so poisonous and so ridiculois. I loved It's so stupid poisonous. Also, my niece was up here saying, she goes. They were Tucker Cross talking about how women. If you've ever seen a woman back up a car, then you know that they're not equal to men. He said, it back up

a car like it's almost a parody of misogyny. Right, it's not even in real step with real misogyny, you know what I mean. It's like it's it's misogyny for morons for nineteen fifties. Yeah, misogyny. So yeah, so let's not give him any more airtime. But they thank you so much for coming on. Oh. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. Katherine, Thank you. I'd spend fun being with you as well. And Chelsea, please let me know when we're in the same city because I would

love to spend some quality time with you. I would too. I would too. I'm going to reach out to you and let you know when I'm in New York. You're in New York mostly right, yeah, mostly New York. Yeah? Okay, okay, cool, all right, lots of love to everyone, Okay, bye, bye, thank you. Okay. I've added some new dates for my new Little Big Bitch tour. I'm gonna tell you the ones that are not sold out because we're adding second shows in Kalamazoom, Michigan Sunday, April sixteenth, we added a

second show. We're adding a second show in Spokane, Washington, which is going to be Thursday. So I'll be performing in Spokane Thursday and Friday. And then we added Red Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado, which is in Morrison, Colorado, and that is May tenth, so and then I have one new edition Friday, May twelve. We added Monticello, New York. So that's a resort World Cats Skills. I don't think I've been to the Cat Skills well ever, and we're

continuing to add shows. We have a lot of cities on the list, Vegas, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Alabama, a lot of places in Tennessee. So if you're listening, go to Chelsea Hammo dot com for tickets and you could see my stand up special Revolution on Netflix, which is now streaming. So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartRadio, produced by Catherine Law and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.