Hi, guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life One cart. I'm Brittany and I'm Laura, and welcome to the rest of Australia who are now also in lockdown. It sucks and I'm sad that you're all here with us. Who are the only parts of Australia not in lockdown? Now? Is it just Western Australia?
Oh?
Who's keeping track? Everyone?
Not?
Everyone's life is shitty and if it's not, I don't want to hear about it. So what's been going on with you? Then? The fun thing that's been happening in our household is that Lola is cutting two teeth and she's currently teething. And there is nothing more wild and feral than a teething toddler. I feel like the last two years for you have been teething, not teething. Just like children, it's either there's something wrong with the young
one or there's something wrong with the oldest one. They're never in time and there's always some sort of drama. But we thrive in chaos and we love every second of earth. And you want to keep ongoing. Woman, It's weird, but yes, I do. I have this like weird crazy hormonal, Like now I just want to be that this mother earth woman who just has lots of children, lives out in Byron Bay. Okay, but this is going to blow
your mind. But yesterday and this is not happening. Also just FYI, so we got am I finding out news with Live with the Rest of Australia yesterday. As you guys know if you listened to last week's episode, I got my first period after having Lola, which is big because I haven't had a period in like over a year, and you know, just about to finish and I was like, look, Matt, this means you have to be really really careful now, like lots of protection. I want you to double bag
that thing before coming to bed. You glad wrap that, you glad rap that, you foil that. I was like, Matt, double bag, I'm back on the pill. I'm going to get a Marina put in. Let's go for God. And that was like, why don't we just give it one crack with no contraception and see what? Oh Matt, what is wrong with that? Man? Not? And I hope you, Oh my god, did you look at your face? It's like, we have time to have sex. We've had a teething child. Come on, Brittany, okay, because I feel like that is
like Russian Roulette. I don't feel like that that is a good thing for you and Matt to do. I do also think it's more like the odds are on our side, because let's be real, like the man is fertile. Look, I got a little bit sad this week because the Olympics finished. Now I assume I'm on board with the rest of Australia. I was so the rest of Australia except you, Laura. I was so into the Olympics. I loved it. I cried so many times. I had all the feelings and it's finished, and I just feel like
they need to come around more often. I think we need to put a petition out for maybe like every two years we have the Olympics. I know I said on last week's episode that I hadn't gotten into it, but I did a real backflip, like I really got into it this week. What at the finals.
You're not allowed to blow in and start to be a supporter in the finals. You have to watch from the start from the first week.
First, the first week was boring. I got really I just watched the marathon. Guys, I'm so invested. I watched a marathon raised No, I got really into it. And then I feel the same, I'm like, what am I gonna do with myself now that it's finished? Now, I also feel sad and I feel robbed that I didn't watch it earlier, Like I feel like I've missed out on a fundamental part of something that was really important, and I didn't get on board until it was too late.
I am glad that you got on board with the Olympics because there is something that I wanted to ask you. Did you see the marriage proposal that happened at the Olympics? Yes? I did, Okay, So anyone that didn't see it, please look it up. And I want to talk to you about it, Laura, I want your opinion. There was an argentinianfencer, her name is Maria Belen Perez Maurice. Now say that
ten times fast, long story short. She was doing an interview after her very very unfortunate early exit in the Olympics, and she was feeling really down in the dumps, and then in the background, her partner and coach, Now this is long term partner and he's her coach and his name is Lucas Torsato. She's doing the interview. Marie's doing the interview, She's doing her best to stay happy, and in the background, he pops up with a sign basically
says will you marry me? She doesn't know he's there yet. This is on the Live Cross on TV, and the reporter's sort of like, oh, like, maybe you should turn around kind of thing, and she turns around and she sees him holding up this sign. Now, I want to make a really really strong point that the sign that he's holding up this isn't like some big, beautiful sign that's on cardboard that's covered in glitter and diamond's and colored, not like you would think a marriage proposal would be
at the Olympics. It was literally a piece of It's like he found a note, like an a four piece of paper and he's like a menu or something, and he's flipped it over. He's just grabbed a black text out and he's scribbled will you marry me please? And it's this really really awkward moment. Now, I don't know how you feel, or I want to know your opinion, but when I watched it, I was so uncomfortable, like I could barely watch it. Okay, I have so many feelings.
I am a middle child, Like if I made it to the Olympics, I just want to have my time in the sun, Like, do not come for me, do not try and propose to me. That is a separate occasion and I want to be able to celebrate that on a separate day. I agreed, like, you trained for years to be at the Olympics. It's your one little time in the spotlight. And on top of that, it's the sign if you're going to steal my thunder, steal
it with a glittery sign, like a big piece of cardboard. Well, I think it just goes to show that it was like really poorly thought out. He did actually come out and say, oh yeah that, had she won, he probably wouldn't have done the proposal on TV. He would have allowed her that moment. But also, who cares if she won or didn't win. She made it to the freaking Olympics, and that was her opportunity to be able to share how she felt about her experience, about how hard she'd trained,
about all the things she did. And then it turned into a marriage proposal, which obviously she was happy. She said, yes, I'm sure, like there are parts of this that are really exciting for her now. But something that you guys might not know is that it's not his first rodeo. Her coach. He did this eleven years ago at a different competition where she had actually won. He proposed to her at that competition as well, and she said no.
He said it. So it was the World Championships eleven years ago and he did exactly the same thing, and she turned around and she said, are you kidding me? Like, how dare you? He went and sat back. You bide his time for eleven years and then he did it again. He's like, surely at the Olympics, it's not going to be a no. Like he probably knew that was his chance to get a yes out of it, because he's like,
she won't say no at the Olympic. It feels a little bit inconsiderate, Like I think, if you're going to propose to someone that is a day that is special in and of itself, you don't have to take and make the one thing that they have worked for so hard about you and about your relationship because it's not about that, Okay, I have something even better. I need to trumpet.
When I was looking up this story about this proposal, I stumbled across another proposal and this happened at this same Olympics.
This just happened, I think today or yesterday. He is the German football captain. His name is Max Kruse. Now I could have pronounced that incorrectly, but.
This is, Laura, the most awkward proposal you will ever see.
So his team had just won three to two. He's live on TV. Now. I don't know if a lot of people know, but partners et cetera can't go to the Olympic. Partners can't go. Now this Max, he's the captain, he's just one. He's on a live interview cross and he stops halfway takes his shirt off, and everyone's like, I don't understand what he's doing. He's taking his shirt off and underneath he had another shirt, like a black T shirt, and in writing on the shirt he asked
his girlfriend to marry him. Now, the real kicker in this part is his girlfriend's not even in the country. She's just watching on TV in like another country. So she got proposed to when she wasn't even there. Now, I don't know what you think about this, but if you proposed to me.
You're in a high and you're winning in another country and I'm not there on live television, it's probably going to be a no.
No way. I completely disagree with you. I actually think that that is so adorable. But they can't even be there to kiss or cuddle or like anything. He didn't even know the answer, because it's not like he organized for her to be like their live and answer. It was just he just put it on TV and it was so awkward to watch. You have to look at Laura. Even the person that was interviewing him didn't know what to do. She's looking around so awkward. She's like, Okay,
do we just cut here? Or I felt awkward watching it? Okay. The reason why I think that this is cute and it's not awkward one I haven't seen it, so like I'll reserve my judgment until I do. But I think it's cute because his girlfriend couldn't be there. She was obviously she would be watching it on TV. She would be so excited for him, and him doing that is like a way of him bringing her into that experience, like he's just one this is his high and he
wants her to be a part of that. I think that that is like beyond beautiful, even if it makes every other person I'm comfortable watching it. I would like, you know what, if someone wanted to propose to me when they just won whatever sport they were playing, and I was there amazing, but I want to be present at my own proposal. I feel like that for me, that is, you know, I have a few things that are non negotiables, and me being there when I'm proposed
to is one of those things. Well, I mean, if you come back to Australia and you and Jordan keep doing long distance, it could be over zoomed. So who fucking knows. But also, Matt to this day has never actually proposed to me, Like, I don't even know one hundred percent if we're engaged. Whoa, whoa, what do you mean? Matt has never asked me to marry him. He never said will you marry me? Didn't you have a really wrote some sort of romantic thing on a beach on
it on in Fiji or something from memory? Yeah, it was very romantic. Matt set up a go pro he did all the things that you're set up a go First Things First content hashtag love. He said, up a GoPro. We're on this beach in Fiji. He like, I was eight months pregnant. It was so pregnant, and like I was past the point where you were supposed to fly in pregnancy. But I was like, I am goddamn having
a baby moon. So we went to Fiji. Anyway. I was like, let's go and have a photo of the sunset just out the front of the villa, which was literally just out the front of where we were staying. And Matt was like, no, let's walk up the beach. It was a really cute spot up the beach. The beach was exactly the same no matter where you were, it was just flat. You're like, I am a beach ball. I do not want to.
Walk up the beach, just flat, identical beach the whole way up the coast. I was like, okay, So we went for this walk, walked past because there was lots of people around, So we walked past all the people all the way up. He then sets this GoPro up and I was like, something is happened here.
Hang on. So the GoPro wasn't prepared. He said it. He was like, wait a minute while I set the gopra, laugh, stop it. I'm dying. Matt, be prepared or prepare to fail, that's the same. So he sets the gypro up and then he just starts crying, like crying and crying. I went from thinking maybe he was going to propose to me to like telling me that he had a terminal illness, and I was like, what is happening. It's the go for content. Everyone loves the tears.
So he gets down on one knee, but he doesn't really get down one ae. He's crying, still crying, and his knee literally just touches the sand and he gets straight back.
Up and then that was it. He didn't say anything.
He just cry Why couldn't he keep his knee on the ground. I have so many questions in this proposal. And then he pulled a ring out and then I was like no. Then he said some really nice things about how much he loves me and how I'm the best and.
Blah blah blah blah blah. He was all very cute, but he never actually said will you marry me? And maybe that's why we're still not married. Two and a half years later. So was there a yes to the question he didn't ask or was there just like some tears and then some cuddles and then I think there was just tears and cuddles and then I put a ring on and then I was like, we're getting married. It's like the end of this, like the Bachelor finale all over it. Totally. Yeah, We're just gonna be pep.
This is it right, We've got two kids. We don't need to get married. To be honest, and I know I've said this before, but but a wedding is so not something that's important to me. Like a wedding, I know it's going to be the best day with our friends. I know we're gonna have so much fun when and if it actually happens, But it's just not the thing that's important to me, you know. And I think that that comes from having broken families and broken relationships, like
you know, my parents being divorced. But having a wedding has never been something that I've been envisaged as a little kid. And I know some people really kind of fantasize about what their wedding's going to be like. To be honest, I have a very strong feeling that our wedding's going to be postpone because of COVID, which is really annoying. Don't put that out to the universe. It's supposed to be in November, guys, but I'm thinking at
this rate it's probably going to be postponed. Honestly, who know, Like you actually don't know what's going to happen anymore. Like maybe the world goes back to normal. The vaccination seems to be rolling out really quickly. Maybe we're perpetual in lockdown. I think every day as it comes. Yeah, yeah, I know. But you know what, even if it does get delayed, I know there's so many other people out there who have done the same thing and then they've
still had a wonderful wedding at the end of it. Anyway, So on the day in lockdown, we live to tell the tale. It'll be something we tell our kids when we're older. We have a awesome episode for you all today, and this is something that we've been sitting on for a little while. We interviewed a psychologist. Her name is
Sandy Ray. She's amazing. She is amazing. And the thing about this episode is because we're getting into I mean You guys know where balls deep in Bachelor time already, but it goes from the Bachelor season to Bachelorette and then straight into maths. And we thought that because we're getting well and truly back into reality TV time, we would sit down and talk to our psychologists, who is an expert in reality TV. Now, what this interview is is unpacking why are we so obsessed with reality TV?
What are the psychological implications of being a contestant on reality TV? And also what is the moral and ethical responsibility of production and editing when it comes to how people and characters? And I say that in quotations how characters are portrayed on reality TV. And I know so many of you who would listen to this podcast have kind of come to us because originally you were Batchet fans, and I really think that you're going to enjoy this episode.
Sandy is such an awesome, warm woman, and she has such a really unique insight into reality TV and what she thinks is morally okay. I absolutely love speaking to Sandy. And the second that we hung up the phone from that interview, I said to Laura, we have to get Sandy on for so many other things. In the future because she's so so knowledgeable, she's so so researched, and
she's just a barrel of fun. But before we get into that, and before we get into it accidentally unfilters, Laura, you did tell me you had a recommendation for me, and I have been sitting on this waiting for you to tell me. What is it? Okay, So for everybody who's sitting in lockdown and needs some more content to consume on their TVs, my recommendation is Doctor Death Now. Yes, okay, it is so freaking good. Guys. It is eight episodes.
They're all about an hour long, so they're like, it's really like sitting down and watching a movie, maybe forty five minutes. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it's got the guy who used to be in Dawson's Creek, you know, Pacey from Dawson's Creek, Josh Jackson. I don't know his name, but he grew up Shaw Jackson and he is so
good in this. So the series is about this doctor in the United States name doctor Christopher Dunch, who ended up being convicted of crimes against the elderly or something of that vein, but it follows his series of like thirty different cases over a really short period of time where he maliciously and with intent caused so much harm to his patients. Two of the patients died, and one of the patients, who was actually his friend, ends up
horrifically injured from his surgeries. Now, this is based on a true story. It only happened like in the last sut of fifteen years and it is just incredibly harrowing if you're into true crime. It is such a epic mini series. And Matt and I cooked we're up to the last episode, which we're going to watch tonight. And then apparently there's also a documentary about doctor death on stand as well, and there's a podcast, like it's a whole thing. You can fully immerse yourself in this man's
weirdly screwed up, messed up, narcissistic, psychopathic mind. I highly recommend. I haven't seen the series yet, but I listened to the podcast years ago, like sort of when podcasts really started to come out. And because I love true crime, you guys all know that I can highly highly recommend the podcast if you're interested, and it's probably a good thing to flow on if you listen to the podcast first,
then go watch the series. I feel like they go really well together because you'll get a lot of information from the pod that probably doesn't make it into the series. But anyway, I'm backing your recommendation on that one, Laura,
one hundred percent. I guess one of the really interesting things as well is how different the American healthcare system is from the Australian healthcare system and how he was able to get away with it for so long because none of the hospitals wanted to report him for malpractice or have his license revoked, because what it would mean was that then they would open themselves up to being sued.
So any of the patients who had been hugely affected by his just like no one knows whether it was on purpose or whether he was just like poorly trained, but the hospitals didn't want to take ownership for it. But it also meant that all these patients who were so horrifically injured by him weren't given any support or any funding. It was just this like, oh, accidents happened kind of mentality, But bad things were happening in every single one of his surgeries, and it's oh, it's so good.
Please go watch it. Add it to your list. It's on stand. Cannot recommend it enough. All right, let's jump into some accidentally I'm filtereds. I have a very sweet accidentally unfiltered today. So I'm hoping that you've brought one that's saucy, dirty and a little bit messed up. Mine's pretty funny. It's not that dirty, but it's pretty funny. So uncomfortable you can go first.
Okay, Hey, girls, I will never live this down. So I was trying to spice things up with my boyfriend because we'd been together a while, and well, you know how it is missionary.
They did a doggy go crazy. We were at a huge work events slash presentation for my company. I'm talking maybe about one hundred people. It was so fucking boring. My boyfriend was sitting across from me at this big table. So I decided to send him a sexy nude that I took the week before. I just had a banked, you know, for those nude sending emergencies.
I love that she had a nude sending an emergency bank. For some reason, I decided to air drop this nude to him. So the name Jason popped up on the screen. I watched as it says picture accepted. I look up with a smirk to see his response, and I give him the sexy eyes from across the table, only to see him in deep conversation with the person next to him. His phone is on the table, nowhere near him. It is then that I get the sinking feeling and I
know I have met a grave error. My eyes dart around the room and I finally catch a man, eyes wide, looking at his phone. He's in his mid forties and I have never seen him in my life. I see him glance around into his lockeyes, and I swear to god, we had a whole panish conversation without even saying a word. The look on my face must have said it all mouth I'm so sorry that wasn't for you, and he
nervously chuckled and looked away. I have absolutely no doubt that that photo is still in this man's phone.
In my defense, I can't blame him because it was the best nude I've ever taken. Oh my god, I think the best bit.
The best bit is that she has to then sit there in the room with him, with his with her nude on his phone.
But the moment that you look up with the sex sizes to your boyfriend and you're like, hang on, the phone's not even in his hand. You're like, this happens to me. Okay, not to me. I don't send nudes, but this happens to me all the time with people send me the wrong things because I don't have my name or my phone, it just says iPhone. Yes, So I'm always copying like random pictures of people's dogs or
people's kids or anyway. Yes, just say no. Never accept Never accept an air drop unless you know that you're supposed to be accepting one. What was he thinking? So this happened, and this happened to me literally last week. No, I didn't send a nude. But Jordan and I were in a line for to pick up some lunch and I was trying to send him some phote. He was
right next to me. I was trying to send him some photos and I kept pressing send and he kept pressing decline and they were like fifteen photos and I did it about four times. I was like, mate, if you fucking decline this one more time, I'm not sending you. He's like, what are you talking about and then this little there's about like a fifteen year old boy behind me says, oh, you keep trying to send them to me,
Like I'm so sorry. He's like I didn't want to say anything, but I just kept pressing sand and he was like, decline, decline, decline. But his was iPhone as well. Oh oh god, all right, I haven't accidentally unfiltered for you guys. It is very innocent. It's not like me now. I'm actually really proud of us today. Not one mention of a Pooh story, no poerson, no farts. Oh it's so weird. What are we maturing here?
We go?
Okay. As part of my job, we take passport style photos. Rules are pretty simple, but there are quite a few stipulations around how passport photos can be taken looking straight at the camera. I usually hold my hand above the cameras that they look right at that spot, no smiling, neutral expression. The idea is that it needs to show your face in the most natural state possible. So this one day, an elderly lady comes in to have her
passport photo taken. I've run through with her the details around how the photo needs to be taken and we have a little chat back and forth. When I'm like, okay, could you just have a seat over here, She asked me if she can smile, and I say, oh, you can do a little smile, but unfortunately no teeth. She looked at me with a confused look on her face for a second, and then she goes, oh, okay, they
want it really natural. Then she bends forward, brings her hand up to her face and pulls out her fighting teeth. So here we are, yes, Queen, the photo booth, the lady sitting there smiling a little smile with absolutely no teeth in, holding her teeth in her right hand, waiting for me to take the passport photo. It took everything within me not to burst out laughing, but it didn't have the heart to tell her that she could put her teeth back in. So I took the photo with
her tee. No, No, you did her dirty.
You should have told her that she can put a teeth in, because those passport photos last for ten years. She's got ten new photo with no teeth and like a gummy smile.
So you did her so dirty. Well, the thing that I think is so great about this, I'm not even laughing about this elderly lady having no teeth. I love that she just doesn't care. She was like, oh whatever. Like the person who's the most uncomfortable in this is the person taking the photo. Like the old lady who's got no tea, she doesn't care. She's baller. She's like, whatever, I'll take my teeth out. I think when you get to that point of your life, you've seen some things
and you've lived some days. I don't think anything bothers you anymore. Well, there's one part of me that's like I can't wait for that, and the other part of me is like, I'd still like to wipe my own asks. I'm done the second I can't wipe my own arms. Or you just need one of those bidets. You know in Italy they have a bidet that like spurts the hose on your butt.
I thought we were gonna say, you just need like one of those sticks with like a little wifer on the end. I was like, yeah, I think I want to chap out like a backscratcher.
Anyway, guys, let's get into the chat with Sandy Ray. We hope that you love it. We hope you get something out of this and a little insight into the world of reality te Baby. Today on the podcast, we have Sandy Ray joining us now. Sandy is a leading practicing psychologist. She's based in Melbourne and she has more than thirty years professional experience. She has our own private practice, Sandy Rain Associates, So we were like, BINGO, let's get
this woman in. She has so many qualifications in the psychological science, which is why we have her here today. She also holds a Masters of Criminology and that is something that I'm actually very very interested. All you listeners know that I froth true crime. You guys might also know Sandy from Channel nine is today show the chat Room all the Herald's Sun too. But today we have Sandy here for a different sort of reason. We want to talk about reality TV because well we all know
we've both been on it. We all know we're sick for it. So Sandy, thank you for joining Life on cart and please let's get into why we're so obsessed as humans with reality TV.
Well I'm obsessed too, so there we go completely nutally. So that's good rule on the same page.
Wonderful. So thanks so much for coming to join us today. Why do you think you are with reality TV. Why do you think we all are obsessed?
Well, I think all of us are psychologists at some way. I mean, we all love looking at human behavior. That's really the core of it. We like understanding our own behavior, We like understanding other people's behavior. We get feedback about what am I thinking? Is it right? Is it wrong? We get a chance to explore all the emotional range of indignation, of anger, of identification. We get to the opportunity to be judgmental in the privacy of our own home.
We get the opportunity to talk to our girlfriends or our partners about gas lighting or abuse or arguments and things like that. So I think what it is, of course, is a reflection of what goes on behind closed doors, or I think that's what a lot of people enjoy that experience.
Yeah, Britain, I were kind of saying earlier. We were like, I am sick for it. And the weird thing for me is though I was never really into reality TV until I did The Bachelor, until I had a bit more of an understanding of the back end of it, and then I was like, ah, I kind of really like this now, and also knowing how much. It actually really can change people's lives. Like I know that that sounds a bit fluffy, but like for us obviously it's
had a huge impact on our lives. But I think one of the things to me that I was like I really enjoyed now as an observer and as a watcher is that I can go to work and I can talk to the girls that I work with about what we've seen on TV. And this sounds bad, but it's almost like gossiping about people that we know without actually gossiping about people that we know. And I know it leads into this behavior of like, oh, I want to did you see that thing that this person did
or did you see that thing that was said? And I mean, you have this insight and you feel like you're so connected to these people, but we don't actually know them.
And it's a really interesting point. There's a thing called social comparison theory in psychology, and I think that's what operates a lot of the time in looking at reality TV and social comparison theory, as the name implies, is comparing ourselves to others. And I think then when we go to work or you know, like they're people who have parties together, say when married at first side song, all the girls have girls' nights on, and then you see all the Twitter feeds and it is this comparison.
It's this not illusion, but it's this comparison of what does my life look like. I think that's that's the big pull, you know, the big draw card.
I'm so interested in the social comparison theory because we try to preach and we try to say, don't compare yourself to others. And I think that that's a very romantic and a very beautiful idea, and I think that's where it ends. And we all should be trying not to compare ourselves because we are different humans, living different lives on different paths. But I think, deep down, you can never one hundred percent not want to compare yourself
to someone else's life. In some aspects. I know that I still, if I'm honest, I still do it now, even other people's relationships. Like you know, ten years and I'm finally in a relationship and the first thing I do is start to compare it to other people's because I don't have a relationship with my own to compare it to. Can we ever really one hundred percent stop that well.
You know, comparing ourselves to others actually has a lot of value. So the idea of you know, negating that and saying, you know, oh you don't be judgmental, but actually has It's a safety mechanism for a start, because we're making judgments, is that the right person to be with? For a start, So you know, fight, flight or freeze? You know, have you ever heard of those responses before?
Not the freeze one.
It's an evolutionary response, so fight or flight, and then the third one they now introduces freeze. So the idea of assessing what's going on in our environment, which is what judging is, is actually a really good survival mechanism. It determines do I need to connect any further this person, or there's something that I don't quite like about this person, I'm going to pull back and move away. So I would argue that being judgmental is actually quite a good
instinct to develop. I've got three girls, and you know this argument about let the kids explore their own you know, dynamics with their peers and things like this, and I used to go, if I see things, I'm going to teach them because I'm ahead of the game. So I used to say, for instance, when girls were bullies or something was going on, I'm telling you now, and I
should teach the girls that watch and listen. There will be something going on in that child's family, that they're a bully, or that they're being viol at school or something like that, and sure enough it would all unfold. And I would actually teach my girls very explicitly to look and watch and observe. And with that comes judgment.
But you know, there's this sort of, as you say, that stereotypical view of don't be judgmental, but in fact, judging has a really good social and protective function.
What do you think that we can consciously learn from watching other people's behavior.
I think the overarching word that I would say is learning empathy. If I had to just nail in one word, you know, I've got to give you lots of sentences, you know, opportunities and a capacity to look at our own emotions and how other people develop and relate and all the rest of it. But if there would be one salient word, I think it's empathy on all the spectrum.
There's a famous marriage relationship person called Gotman, and he says, there's lots of things that create relationships and fractures in relationships, blah blah blah. And he says, if there's one word that I could say that causes fights and competition in relationships, and that's a lack of empathy. And again I directed here that what these programs often don't fail to identify is the empathy as a result of being trolled and that person at the other end of the trolling behavior.
I don't know if it's because I've been on a reality TV show or not, but I feel so sorry for like almost every contestant because I know that in some capacity there's something that we're not seen or there's something that's being shown because it is highly produced. And I definitely do look at reality TV different now, so it's going to be hard for me to talk about it in a way like I haven't been on the show, but before I did reality TV and I saw a
little bit more behind the scenes. I don't want to
admit it, but I was very judgmental. I was constantly like, you're an idiot, you're a moron, You're so toxic, you're disgusting, Like, and I took nobody tell me what you really think for it, you would about you would take because the show would show you the character that they want, and I'm putting these characters in invert commerce, but because people do look at you like you're just a character and they forget that you're a human being, a real human
being that is coming to a type of experiment. But I used to look at them and be so judgy because I would take at face value what I was shown, not knowing there were twenty three more hours worth of filming that we didn't see. There's more storylines that we didn't see. And so now I'll still look at it and say you're stupid, but I'll know that there's more to it. I'll be like, that was a dumb comment, but there's probably a reason you've said that. So I'm trying to be way more.
Understanding, knowing that what we're shown is not the whole spectrum. And it's interesting, you know, I was co hosting a show called The Last Resort. I don't know if you have ever heard of. That was a Channel nine show, and we did the opposite of Married at First Sight. So married at first Sight they start off really well, and then the relationships typically explode, whereas last result was they have got very fractious relationships and we were trying
to rebuild them. And in the light of married at First Sight, we spent an enormous amount of time and I was sort of the psychologist in charge, and so we spent an enormous amount of time safeguarding. And you may or may not remember, well, you probably don't, but there was no fallout at all because I was very, very concerned. We didn't have late night sessions. We guarded the participants really well. They're really well looked after in their own villas and with great food, great dynamics, and
so we had no fallout at all. So I think a lot of this sort of behavior and the characters that are created really depend on our duty of care
to the participants. And I think that that's something that's becoming more and more glaring with the number of suicides and the UK are now having a guidance framework put in place, and I think that this is going to become front and center that if we don't really safeguard and it's all very well to have characters that are edited on reality TV, but if we don't seriously take on board our duty of care and follow up psychological counseling.
But even more than that, it's the pretesting that needs to be assessed and none stood, and you know, having vulnerable personalities going on TV is something that I take very very seriously, and it was something that I spent a lot of time safeguarding. And as a result, none of our participants went into a New Idea or Woman's Day complaining about any mistreatment or male treatment, you know, so that to me was a very proud thing that they were all well looked after.
Well, I do think that there's truth to that sort of old adage where there's smoke, there's fire, and I think that, you know, there are definitely some reality TV shows that people speak really highly of who come out as contestants, and then some that are far more heavily criticized. And actually, my partner, Matt, he just finished on Dancing with the Stars, which I had never even really thought
about the psychological implications or the social implications. And going on a show like Dancing with the Stars, I was like, everyone would be happy it's dancing gay dance. Could you possibly it's the time of your life? You got seven hours a day away from your children. I think it's fantastic what happened. Nothing negative happened at all, but it was managed really, really well. One of the things I was so impressed by was just the follow up care
and the check ins with the psychiatrists. And they have dedicated psychologists on all reality TV shows, but on this one as well, they had so much follow up and he had to have these mandatory exit interviews with his psychiatrist to make sure that he was in the same place that they left him before the show basically, and even he was a bit like, why do they keep wanting to talk to me? I'm fine, but I think it's such a necessary part that goes hand in hand
with reality TV. There is a duty of care and responsibility to the people who are participants because I think from my own experience, even though everyone thinks you deserve this because you signed up for it, you often don't actually know what it is that you're signing up for. Like, you sign up because you think it's going to be a fun experience. You think that you're going to meet new people, and hey, maybe you'll meet a guy and
you'll fall in love, who knows. But I don't think that everybody has the full awareness of what they are actually signing up for, and that's you know, there is there's a huge part of that as well. Yeah, but it's a poor reflection on society as a whole that we can say, you signed up for a reality TV you knew you were going to get those death threats. You knew you were going to get that hate. Reality TV should not equal oh, well, you know you're going
to get death threats. That's a poor reflection on us.
Look, I couldn't agree more. You know, I was really angry about Chappelle Corby going on Essays to exactly your point, Brittany, that it's all very well saying that adults they've got informed consent, but when you're not mentally in a well place, it's a very predatory cluster of behaviors that I think some producers pounce on to get ratings, obviously, and I
think Chappelle Krby was a perfect example of that. I don't know if you watched says we did when she got a one on one with the SAS team in the interviewing room and she just said, I think words to the effect of I'm not well, I need help.
Well goose bumps.
As a psychologist, I went, what the hell and how did you do you get assist?
There's so different parts of this that I was just uncomfortable by, And like, I get it. I get that what the training that it's depicting. I get the emphasis
and this idea that you can kind of recreate. I think the big onus on that show was that people were going in who had compromised stories, you know, their compromised past stories, whether they'd done something where they wanted to redeem themselves socially, and so by doing this hard training, they had the opportunity of showing their vulnerability and that way they can redeem themselves socially in the eye of the audience. Which it's an obscure path, but I mean
it seemed to work for a lot of people. A lot of these people had the opportunity to show their vulnerable sides and that's what changed public perception about them. And actually that kind of leads me into a whole other question on this, But what do you think are the positives then as a contestant going on a show or on a reality TV show, or even from the
viewer's perspective watching a reality TV show. We hear so many of the negative things that can come from reality TV, but I genuinely think that there are so many positive things that can come from reality TV as well. And I'd love to know your opinion and perspective on that. I mean, you met me Laura so and we have a podcast, baby, we have life on Cut was Born Past.
There's a positive look, I think, and it's a really good point. I think there are lots of positives, you know, some of those of what we've talked about for the observers, you know, the empathy, the social interaction, comparing and affirming, understanding or gas lighting behaviors for instance, getting cues about you know, inappropriate behavior, consensual behavior, et cetera. There's lots of cues that I think the audience can actually get from.
Can I just quickly finish off about Chappelle? So the only thing I could come up with was that you've got forty thousand dollars, and perhaps that forty thousand dollars great was for therapy or counseling or whatever she needed. So there's a plus that if there's no other income source or limited income source, there's a really good way of perhaps generating some income, getting your self esteem, batting and order redemption. As you rightly said, there are certainly
benefits to you know, to business. If you want to go on reality TV to increase your business profile, you know, you might want to be enacting. You might have a small business, and this expands the viewing audience. So you've prepared to take those sorts of risks. It might be because I've been lonely for ten years and I've never been in a relationship. Well, I've got nothing to lose,
you know, whatever character they carve out for me. I mean, I'm getting the opportunity to experience something which I otherwise would never have access to if not for the development of reality TV. For some people it would enhance their self esteem. They get feedback that they look gorgeous. So I think there are lots of benefits.
In relation to Chappelle.
I think that's a prime example of when we say redemption, because Australia had this one idea of Chappelle. You know, for the last however many years, we knew that she was accused of drug smuglin she was in prison, and that's what we knew about. That was literally it now we saw her on and whilst it wasn't good for her mental health, it has done something really great for her in the public eye. I do believe everybody gets a second chance to say who they are and shape their life.
But we would never have seen another side to Chappelle. And we only know this because Laura's partner, Matt, was on Dancing with the Stars. Chappelle was on Dancing with the Stars too, and Matt just sung her praises. He was like, she was the nicest person on there. She was so generous and it wasn't for show. She would go and give food to the homeless after the show, and it wasn't in front of anyone. It wasn't so
anyone would talk about it. She was just a really good human And you know, then we went I spoke about on the podcast and put that out to however many people listen, and we've now been shown Chappelle in a different light for who she is on the inside. And that doesn't excuse anything she may or may not have done in the past. But it's just a prime example of what reality TV can do in terms of showing Australia and showing the world who you actually are.
We always hope that we're the exception. Like I know when I signed up for The Bachelor, and I think that this would probably ring true for anybody who has signed up for a reality TV show. You know that there is a possibility that you could come off badly and that it could end poorly, But you always hope as a person that you're the exception. You always hope that, well, maybe this will be my chance to meet someone, and maybe this has been my chance to you know, put
my life in a different trajectory. And I think for me personally, I was at a point where I was a bit bored in my life. I was making the same relationship mistakes over and over and only in reflection now I can see, like why I had that pattern behavior in my relationship. We've got a whole podcast.
I'm sitting here hoping I'm going to message this out of we might not to have.
Private therapy session. I was really codependent in my relationships, and I really kind of just monkey branched into the same thing, just fully put myself and the same thing into the into a new person who is the exact
carbon copy of the old person. And reality TV for me was a chance to break that cycle because I met someone who really wasn't someone I would have dated in the real world, Like my partner now is probably someone who had I met, I would have kind of thought, Oh, yeah, he's super handsome, but he's way too nice and he's not a challenge and he likes me too much, and why is he like and this is gonna sound dune, but every girl has done this. Oh my god, why
is he so obsessed with me? Like, oh, boring done that? Because they have. But because there was a bit of a challenge in actually meeting him, and it was interesting and it was fun, and it exposed me to someone who I would never have really connected with or met properly in the real world. And then I realized just how much I loved him and wanted to be with him,
and how our lives are intertwined. And I guess for me that was a huge positive because it gave me some distance from my own personal life to reflect on the things I was doing wrong. Like it fully takes
you out of your normal life. It disrupts everything and you are forced, especially in something like The Bachelor or in a love related reality TV show, you have to spend so much time being introspective and thinking about your feelings and thinking about what you want, and nobody spends three months just examining themselves and thinking about what they want for their relationship. We'll always have these other distractions. And for me that was so invaluable.
And what about the intensity of having so many other women around you? That part of it was good for you because you could be mindful, But how that like look in that social comparison theory sort of blows my mind. To be on the women.
Together, it's a bit maddening, and I think you have to be a pretty strong person to be okay with it. For me, the reason why I was okay with the whole dating him and a whole lot of other people dating him was because I was like, well, it's pretty
much the same as me and Sydney. Anyway. A lot of the guys I'd dated in the past cheated on me and I'd been sharing them without knowing, So I was like, well, if this is happening to me in the real world, but I'm being lied to, at least this is happening to my face, and I'm okay with it, Like I'm accepting of what's happening and nothing is going
on behind closed doors. So I actually felt a lot safer in that environment because I was like, I know exactly what's happening, and that was like a sort of transparency and honesty that I was not receiving in my normal relationships. No, my ex was marrying two people simultaneously whilst cheating with eight other women. So this was like a holiday for me. I was like maybe, I was like, this is fantastic, Sammy. The dating game is vicious. It is vicious.
I think we need to have a talk about your capacity to perceive what's going on.
Oh, we have in all seriousness, and I think that this is something we do get a lot of questions and like it's something that people do need to consider when they want to go on reality TV. For me, I was lucky, and I can say this. I was Maybe it's because what I went through in the past, but as a human and I've been traveling the world. I just got back from a three year around the
world trip. I was fiercely independent. I had been through a lot of shit and I was really thick skinned, water off a duck's back a lot, and I felt going into that situation. Yes I knew what it was, but I wasn't worried in the slightest because I thought, you know what, this is going to be a really great experience. And I feel like I've been through worse. I wasn't. I didn't have a sheltered upbringing, I wasn't wrapped in cotton wool. And I literally found in all honesty.
And I don't know how many people can say this. I found it so easy. The stresses didn't really bother me, The other women dating Nick didn't bother me because I was able to compartmentalize what it was, why I was there, and just just focus on myself. But when people write to me and say should I go on the show or not? My first thing is you need to be
so so okay in yourself and thick skinned. But from a psychological perspective, what would you say to people that are thinking of not just a bachelor, but like any reality TV show? What would what's your advice?
I think the very first thing you have again that being introspective, I think is a really good point. What are your vulnerabilities? And you know, you know, Laura, you just talked about you know, codependent relationships and you could see a pattern unfolding. I think if you don't understand your vulnerabilities when you go in and do an audition, because what is it that differentiates all the men and
women who audition. It's their mental health. There's lots of blonde, pretty girls, there's lots of articulate women, there's lots of everything. But what really differentiates people is their mental health. So if you feel that there's a vulnerability, I would have really red flash about going on, because that's what the producers will hook into. And I can tell you quite unethically, I know of psychologists who've been on the shows who
present the results to producers and they're effectively ignored. So the best investment is not blaming producers for their selection, but it's you being diligent and being introspective and being guarded about what your vulnerabilities are, because if you don't know them, this show or any show that you go on, is not going to fix them. They're going to magnify them. They're going to exploit them, and then you're the one
that's going to suffer as a result. So anyone who's going I think as a mental health practitioner would be understand what your vulnerabilities are and is this show because we've got enough evidence now of the outcomes of reality show. We know trolling happens, we know it affects people's mental health. We know that it can actually trigger suicide. I mean, the show in and of itself is not going to cause suicide. There's obviously issues well established beforehand. But it
does impact on the life of many people. So you know, we've got enough evidence that that exists. So you now need to be smart enough to say, right, what is the possible outcome for me. You may not be fully aware of what it's like to be trolled, you know, I wouldn't have a clue what it's like to be trolled, you know, for weeks and weeks on end. But I think you just need to be very introspective about how would it impact on your mental health. It's a mental
health that drives it. That's the thing that the producers hook into.
I just wanted to say one thing back on what you had said earlier, Brit, in regards to how easy you found the process. I don't want to gloss over that because the reason why Britt and I actually met was because there was a period where she wasn't coping with it, and I reached out to her as somebody who was in my position from the year prior. And this is actually how we met. And I think if you guys have listened to the podcast for a long time,
you might have heard this story. But Britt was copying some serious backlash online and I just knew what that felt like, and I knew what it's like to feel like nobody wants your relationship to work out, and like, at that time, I didn't know whether or not the Honey Badger had chosen Nick. I thought, sorry, choose Nick, chose himself. I didn't know whether or not he had
chosen Britt. And I was like, it's such awful, awful and soul crushing feeling to think that nobody who's watching the show wants you to be with that person, and you're with that person, you know, like the shows I are airing on TV, and that's actually your boyfriend. So I reached out to Britain and I was like, look,
I know that you think that everyone hates you. I just want you to know that everyone doesn't hate you, and the small portion of people who are writing your messages or they're contacting you, or they're whatever they're saying, like they really don't matter, and it goes away very very quickly, like it's a very short lived amount of aggression. And that's when Britt cork I was like, here's my number, call me if you need to have a chat. It was like two minutes later and she was in tears,
absolutely beside herself. So I think it's one thing to say, oh, it was a great experience, but we tend to forget the bad bits. And that's true for Eddie relationship, it's true for Eddie trauma, but kind of suppress it. So I think even though overall I would say my experience is great, and I think Britt would also say her experience was great, we both have parts of that experience
which were extremely challenging. Yeah, what I want to say is, and I was thinking about this just before you said that, Laura, I was like, I just made that sound way too easy and way too good. When I was like, it was great, it was really great for me, But it did And this is what highlighted this thought, Sandy, was when you said, what is your vulnerability? And that did happen for me? My vulnerability was this feeling of never
been enough. I had been in this no relationship for ten years nearly or at the time, sorry it seven or eight years, and my last relationship was with this sociopath. I had this feeling of like not being enough. I was like, why doesn't anyone want to date me? You picked? We'll have to talk about it again, you can analyze me. But that was definitely brought out the whole. That was what they angled, like why don't you think anyone's wanted
to date you? For so long? And then over the three months, I was like wow, like is there something not right with me? But I was like no, this connection with Nick is so great, Like I honestly was like, this is it. This is why I've been single so long since, why these things have happened because i'mupposed to be with Nick. And then Nick dunked me at the end and didn't pick anyone, and then that was heightened.
So my vulnerability of not been enough for no bachelor in Australia has ever done that to be like, wow, there's something really fundamentally wrong with me. If I'm the first person that can't even walk away with someone happily at the end, So that definitely is something you need to consider. I watch your vulnerability, it will be brought out. And then for me, the hardest part was actually after the show. Like Laura said, it wasn't the environment so much.
That was quite nice for me. A lot of the girls were complaining about being in a bunk bed and they'd never been away from home. I was like, I've been in a hostel for three years. This is like luxury, even making me breakfast. The hardest part was after, and it was the trolling, and like Laura said, like that
for me, I'd never experienced that. I like to think of myself as a good person, and I'm like, how can these people be telling me to kill myself or telling me how ugly I am and that's why I'm single? And I was like, how can they do that when I know I'm a good person, but they look at you like you're a character.
Like it is the most absurd reaction. And so of course, how I would self soothe from that is saying they're mentally unwell. It's not normal conversation, it's not a normal reaction. So you know, there's this dissociation that you would then have to create I imagine is saying what has gone wrong with those people? Because that's what strikes me. It's just so abnormal to wish someone dead from a reality show.
How did you reconcile? You know, you sort of became very close with Nick with the fallout from all that that he didn't choose anyone? How did you reconcile that?
I didn't for a while. I still just for a long time thought I wasn't good enough and there's something wrong with me, and that I needed to sort something out. And it's funny because deep down I'm like, there is nothing wrong with you, Like I know there's not, but there's still this stole or am I right? Was like, you're great, there's nothing wrong with you, and the one on your left is like, well, why the hell does no one ever want to be with you? So that
was something I battled for a long time. It was probably like another eighteen months after when I started to regain my confidence again and realize that.
Did you say eighteen months?
Yeah, so it's probably three years ago now it Yeah, yeah, the show was three years ago. But I mean, and I think that that's why I'm really glad you brought that up, Brit because I do think it sounded a bit oversimplified of like everything was awesome when you're part of a team. That really there was a lot of flow on from your experience, and I remember having many conversations with you before meeting Jordan where you said, I don't feel like I'm good enough. I feel like there's
something wrong with me. A lot of that anguish had come from the show, and it had come from public rejection, which is a huge thing to deal with. And also I mean, like I also feel for the people who go through the Bachelor and the same cycle that we've been with and they do get chosen and the relationship doesn't work out, because going through a public fallout in
a relationship is huge as well. Like, that's one of my biggest fears is Matt and I. We always say to each other we're gonna be together forever, But if it didn't happen and we weren't together forever, having a really public breakup is something that I have a lot of fear attached to that, Like, that's really something I don't think I would handle very well. But just coming back to something you said, and I think it was really powerful because I had not thought of it in
that manner at all. But you're so correct the idea of like, the most important thing if you're considering doing reality TV is being hyper aware of your vulnerabilities. I had never considered that that is what sets you apart. And one of the big thing that we say on this podcast is that there's power in vulnerability. There's power in showing people how you feel, because when you express yourself and you explain your feelings, it allows someone to
be softer towards you. It allows someone to actually reach out and help you if you're in need of help, instead of being like, I'm fine, everything's fine. I think we sometimes tend to do that as women. We put up a bit of a front and say that we're
fine instead of expressing our feelings. However, when it comes to reality TV, not just your feelings, but if there are some things that don't bring out the best in you, if there are different situations where you know, actually, I'm not my best self when someone speaks to me like that, or I'm not my best self when I'm overtired and I'm overworked and I'm feeling a little bit out of control.
I think be really super hyper vigilant on those situations, because that's when I think that you can really lose yourself in a reality TV setting. If you're considering signing up and doing a show.
I think that's beautifully well seen, and I think we forget that that aftermath that means you become hyper vigilant, hyper aroused. We have sleepless nights, et cetera, et cetera, And I think that some of these shows, if you're not aware of your vulnerabilities, then you are at greater risk of suffering from PTSD as a result of going on this show.
I hey, I wanted to bring it back to something a bit more positive because we've just got gone in. But I've read a lot of research studies that have said, well, A firstly, more than fifty percent this is US based, but more than fifty percent of the population tunes into reality TV than not. So more people watching reality TV than not. And these people are watching it because watching drama has been shown to destress a person. Why is that? Why is if we're really stress and anxious, do we
want it from the day? Do we walk in, put the reality TV on and then feel better? It's because well, well, well, you know what, my life is fucked, but their life is way more fucked than my. Is that it? And I feel good?
That's exactly it. And I have this summary pie. You don't mention a pie. There's three real reasons for that. Escapism, identification, and a potential of what I could do on the show. So that's that's what I think actually drives it. So the destressing is escapism. So if I'm feeling up time, if I've had a shit day at work, I come home and I watch all these lunatics behaving and crazy.
Comparing why not Johnny shore over here? Come on, I'm Joe.
David personally girls, you know, But that's how you sort of say, oh, they're luded to do I think you even use the words, oh they're morons, they're stupid, they're crazy. So I'm catching up on your words. Bridge don't know when you're distress and you go, oh, my life is not too bad. These people are far worse than what I am. So I think that it gives that a sense of the world is okay now, And.
We don't realize to use our brain, do we Absolutely it's like we're not It's like our brain has a break because it's just this easy watching that we're not really thinking. Absolutely. I kind of challenged that I don't know if we because like, I think that for us, some of the big shows that we've watched, like and like, it's all about human behavior and human interactions. We've had some really profound conversations off the back of watching reality
TV where we've gone, Okay, that characteristic is gaslighting. Let's have a big unpack and a conversation around gaslighting. Like, we have had some really thought provoking conversations, and I think with some of the reality TV shows are coming out recently, it's actually lending us to really dissect and look at human behavior. So I don't know if I switch off. That's after the fact, when you're literally sitting
down watching like I watch your stories. When you watch reality TV, you're having a great time, you're having a life, if you're having a wine, like if your wind down, and then the conversation stem from it. After one of my.
Daughters said to me and I asked her the question, what do you think you get out of watching reality TV? And she said, comedic relief. You know you're stressed and you get there and also when you come home watching reality TV, whether it's Dancing with the Stars or SAS or Love Island or whatever, there is a certain voyeurism. It gives you an opportunity to explore and look at people in a way that you would never ever get
access to, in a legal, safe way. In the comfort of my own home, I can watch what's going on. I can watch romantic behavior and even intimate behavior in the comfort and the legality of my own home.
Without putting a camera in someone's house the.
Thing of goggle Box. Then, you know, you know, I think that's part of the bas I think that's part of why, you know, it makes sense to me that it is a distressor because you can unpack any sort of heaviness that you've got during the day and go I can just watch their behavior and how crazy they look, and I feel good about myself. Ah, the world's a safe place again.
The big things as well. And I think that it's all interrelated. Like we are so obsessed with social media, which I think has a very similar ethos behind it. You know, we get to see this insight into people's lives.
But reality TV social media have completely changed the landscape for what creates a celebrity because before, back in the day, our true sort of like supermodels and our celebrities were held in such a high regard because they were so far away, they were so untouchable and on this huge pedestal, and there was some sort of secrecy to their life, and that was what we found so engaging and so interesting. But with the dawn of social media and with reality TV,
we now crave that connection. We now crave that insight into people's lives, and we actually form a greater love for and bond with people who show us more of their lives than less of their lives.
You know.
So even we see that some Hollywood stars now have kind of the new wave of Hollywood stars are far more open with their lives, whereas the old school ones like your Tom Cruise and Nicole Kimmens and stuff are very close still. And I think that that's just going to continue to change because what we expect as a consumer is changing. What we expect people to show and to reveal is completely changing.
And you've made a really good point. So there's two words there that psychology words I'll introduce. It's called para social relationships with celebrities is a new terminology that's evolving, and there's actually a journal of celebrity studies has now raised created in the last decade, So it's looking at the development and evolution of celebrity and how we identify with Often reality TV people is this parasocial relationship. Their life is like my life? Am I as pretty as her?
Or not as pretty as her? Oh, she's got how she relates to her partner? And when a celebrity engages in some sort of egregious behavior, that parasocial relationship is broken because there's such an identification with the celebrity, and that means that often accounts for trolling behavior and abusive behavior. So if a celebrity does something wrong, it actually interrupts that parasocial relationship, which is what audience have identified with.
But Sandy, another thing that I really wanted to talk to you about because I'm obsessed with it is true crime. Now I know you have studied criminology. Why is it that we are so obsessed with serial killers and murders and all these horrific things that happen to people Because I don't like watching it. I hate what happens to people. But I love listening to crime podcasts. It's like my number one no offense Laura, but I listened to Crime Model Ourselves. I love listening to true crime podcasts. I
love watching true crime reality TV shows. I love watching where the psychologists go into the prisons and speak to serial killers. Why are we sickos?
Or what?
Well? I mean.
I used to work in Barwin Prison, so as a forensic psychologist in Barwin, so just the maximum security men's prison. It's like the equivalent I think of your silver water or gold and jail. So I have actually dealt with the state's worst offenders. So I also started off having this fascination going, oh my god, look, I think the real reason that we're attracted to it is because it's
behavior that we otherwise wouldn't have access to. So you wouldn't engage in imagining murdering people, or torturing people, or sexually abusing people. So all these high rating crimes are crimes that are really just unimaginable to us, that we could never So it's a bit like again looking at this voyeur is and coming home in the safety of your own home, you're actually able to see what other people do, which you otherwise would never have access to.
And I think that's the draw card of looking at crime stories. It's interesting, you know, having worked at the cold face with these criminals and offenders both you know, sexual offenders and murderers and all the rest of it.
I actually got in my car every night and slept really well, and I think it was because, unlike being all packaged and neat and clean, I was actually able to communicate on a very deep level with the offenders, so I could understand their crimes and of course not condone any of it, but I could actually because I could understand the developmental pathway and how they got there. It was a really curious and interesting process for me
in terms of how it affected me psychologically. And for some reason, I was able to just say, Okay, we're done for the day. Today's work's finished. I'm getting the car and drive. But when I see stuff on TV like crime stories, I'm more affected the way I think also the way it's packaged up.
How do you as a psychologist cope with taking on people's stories and emotions and sitting down with people every day and listening to, you know, the things that they're struggling with. Like, how do you compartmentalize that and not take that home and not allow that to emotionally impact you.
You do a lot of self care, that's the first thing. And I don't sit our after hour listening to people because I just think that's actually anti therapeutic. So I'm
very guarded in the number of people I have. And one of the core attributes of a good psychologist is having a high degree of creativity, because you never know what's walking through the door, so you have to be on I have to join lots of issues, and what excites me is formulating a story about what's going on with this person and seeing if I can offer what I'm a very strength based person, so that means offering my insights to see how we can together navigate some
resolutions of whatever the problem is. So the issues are often very big. So I've written many, many reports for women of domestic abuse and represented women, you know, and I've done family court reports. I've done children court reports, so a whole gamut of reports and people have come to me, and I think how I manage it is I just see them as humans, no matter what eff ups have happened in their life, even for offenders. I
get to understand developmentally what has happened. And so I guess I have a great deal of empathy, and it's that empathy that actually carries me through and doesn't harm me. I can just go I understand where you've come FRO. I'm not giving a moral judgment about if you become a sexual offender, about the impact on the victim. I just go all on focusing on here is why did you get to that position in life.
I have a question that's based around these true crime shows, the ones where the serial killers have passed over, they're dead for whatever reason, the ones where they're in jail, they go and interview them. My question is, and I seem to like toggle between my two thoughts on the situation, is do you think we should be giving these people a platform because a lot of them just want their name out there, don't they They want to be remembered in history.
Or do you think it's still we're learning enough from it and it's important enough that we are airing it. So I'm always a bit between like, I am obsessed with this and I want to learn from you, and I want to know what is going on in your head and then there's another part that's like your name shouldn't be like famous, We shouldn't be talking about you, We shouldn't all know that you killed twenty five women.
There was also this conversation that came off the back of the Ted Bundy series, which was that are we romanticizing a serial killer by doing this sort of insight into their life and doing this expose? Is that romanticizing true crime? Is it romanticizing these horrific events? What doesn't help them?
On us?
Zach Efron was the lead world was the lead killer.
Even more recently, you know, just Cinder drnov in the christ Church massacres. She said, we will never ever mention his name in a public forum again. And to this day I don't even know the guy's name because it's never been mentioned again because she didn't want to celebrate or give him celebritization of his acts of murder. So it's a really it's a really good pointing, and it's one I don't have an answer to because a lot of serial killers are actually sociopaths. So the difference between
a psychopath and a sociopaths. Psychopath is typically born with sociopath is nurtured because of the deficits in their development, you know, mental health of parents, sexual abuse, et cetera, et cetera. So that's essentially the difference. So there's a lot of and psychopaths is actually a small percentage of the population, the criminal population, but a lot of them are sociopaths. So if it's a learnt behavior, they would no doubt get a lot of play leisure from being
celebrated because of their criminal conduct. And do we learn from it. I'd be very surprised if a potentially violent offender would watch a TV program and go not to self, must not engage in anti social behavior.
But do you know what they might learn? Hey, I shouldn't wear the same shoes to a crime scene. Correct, Hey I shouldn't do this because these are all the things that these other people have been busted for. I do sometimes watch these shows and think, Wow, so much information around how that person got caught and the things they did wrong is available, and now it just kind of helps someone else to go, Oh, I won't make that fuck up. That's what not to do.
From my clinical experience, most offenders most come from very fragmented, dysfunctional, chaotic, drug affected substance abuse lives. So the idea that they're going to be introspective when their development is pretty screwy from day one. I don't have access to the normal social supports or care or love or nurturing or home lives that you or I might come from. So the idea they're going to watch TV and say, you know, gee, how can I reflect on my life and make it
a little bit better? Because they're just in survival mode, and their mode is what can I get out of the community or other people that I need to make my life a bit better? Whichever way that.
There's been a lot of women that have come out and said, like in documentaries and interviews that have said that they have learned things from watching as well, like they learn to carry pepper spray, they learn to lock their doors, they learn to share their location immediately if they feel like they're in a vulnerable position.
No, I think that's right. I think I think law abiding people probably learn a little bit more from some of these shows than offenders. As I said, I don't think offenders sit back and go note to self, I won't murder that woman today. No, No, because it's bad publicity, you know, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think you're probably right. Law abiding people become a little bit more aware of some of the mechanisms that offenders engage in.
God, I've learned so much from True Crime podcast And the only.
Trouble is then equally it makes you. It may make you a little bit more hot, inappropriately hyper vigilant. So even though I've worked in the prisons, I'm not hyper vigilant or hyper aroused at all. Like I'm not sort of like, oh, there's a bang, there's a clue. Oh, I've been to make sure I don't engage in any of that behavior. But also I think I don't feed
that behavior. Like, as you say, when you're constantly watching podcasts on crime, I think it starts to trigger you, you know, and it reinforces very again, a cluster of vulnerable behaviors. Nothing wrong with you know, being aware of safety, et cetera, et cetera. But I think also if you are finding that you are getting rather excited about when you step outside your front door because I'm on something might happen to me, I think you probably need to back it off a bit.
You need to cancel your subscription or Sandy, thank you so much. I think I feel like we've covered a lot, so we're really like for all the patum pillar to post. We have gone everywhere, We've got access to this amazing psychologist. Let's just cover everything and then have a personal therapy session in there as well. Yeah, I'm going to stay on the line and talk to you about my love life after this forty five minutes. No, but thank you
so much for coming on. Sandy. Can you please let everyone know where they can find you on Instagram or online? What are your handles? Oh?
Look, just Sandy Ray my hand lower case Sandy Ray, a lowercase of Instagram. And I've just got a web page, so if you look it up, Sandy Ray ari a psychologist. All the directions are on my website and you'll get to me.
You've been wonderful. Thank you, Thank you so much for taking the time with us today, Sandy, Thank you.
So much for having me girls so much. Fuck will you guys know we never finished an episode without our highlight and our low light of the week.
It is called suck and sweet and Laura you can kick this off. What is your suck? I just want to say as well. I love that there's some of you out there who have started doing this. There's actually a thread that's just started on the Facebook group where people are adding their suck and sweets for the week. So yes, it is such a nice little way to round out what could have been a great or very shitty week. Up to you, we love to see, we love to see it. My suck for this week has
got to be that Lolo is teething. I know I mentioned at the start, but it just consumes everything. And we had gotten to a really good point with her sleeping. She had gotten down to like only waking up two times a night, which I know for her being six months old, there's gonna be some people listening who are like, that's not good. Baby should sleep through it. Six months My kids don't twice a night. Is great for us.
I wish my kids slept through the night. But she's back to just waking up like a million times a night. She's so feral at the moment, and it's really it hurts your heart seeing your baby in pain. And you know every time she has a mouthful of food or bites down on a spoon or something, she gets really upset. So that hurts my soul that she is upset at the moment. But my sweet for the week, ah, Like, my sweet for the week is just I think I said this last week, but I'm gonna see it again.
It's just the extra family time that we've been having. And I mean we've spent so much time inside the four of us and playing games with Marley, playing hide and seek. We don't usually get to have that much time doing like cute little family stuff and things that you know, normally you're too busy rushing around are You're too busy trying to like get other work done. But I feel like I've really got to spend time just playing with Marley, and I've loved that. So that's my
sweet for the week. Let me go, that's a cute sweet. It's good that you're trying to take something from a bad situation, you know, and take the good from it. Thanks Brett. I was like, this is where you respond something. Alright, what is your second suite? Okay, So I actually have a pretty solid suck this week. I lost my phone, and I don't mean lost it, like lost it temporarily.
I haven't had it for five days. It's gone my phone has disappeared, so I've been without a phone, and then of course I forgot my Instagram and hot Mail passwords because you know how on your phone everything's just perpetually locked in. Yeah, it's just automated. Such a bad idea, isn't it. Oh, and I do all my banking on there and do my business. I have just been absolutely lost without it. But hopefully I'm only probably two more days without a phone and then I'll get another one.
That was my suck. Wait, did you have everything backed up? Pass No? Some stuff was, Yeah, some stuff was, but not everything because I took off automatic updates because it was really annoying me. But that's a really really silly thing to do. I mean, not that you want to hear that now after you just thanked your phone, but like, wow, I put on automatic updates after having kids. So I've lost my phone so many times, and every single time
I've lost so many, so many photos. But after having Laura and Maaly, I was like, I think it would be so soul crushing to lose photos of your kids because obviously they never go back to being that little again. And I know there's going to be someone listening to this who it's happened to, and I'm so sorry if it's if it's you. But like that's when I was like, Okay, I don't care if it's annoying doing automatic updates at nighttime. We're doing it every night. I mean a back up
every single photo. And now my cloud I pay like an abstronomical amount because I have thousands of shitty screenshots and just like stuff that you do not need to save, it's all saved. I have never gonna lose anything again. Bless yourself, my sweet To be honest, it's pretty it's pretty easy. One. Jordan's not playing a tournament this week.
It's the first week that he hasn't played since I've been here, so it's the first week we've actually just hung out as a couple and not had a million places to be and you know, he goes to play tennis for ten hours a day, so whilst I see him every day, it's the first time I feel like we actually got some real quality time. So that was
really cute. That is it from us today. Please keep your questions coming in because in a few days time we have asked gun cut and we absolutely love bringing that to you so slide on in to the Instagram or lifeun Cut podcast. Just make sure at the top of your DM you put their head in ask guncut so we know what your questions and please keep those accidentally unfiltereds coming in. Also, guys, if you have not left a review yet, jump onto Apple Podcast, leave a review, subscribe.
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