Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.
Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was recorded on Drug wallamut Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura and I'm Brittany, and we have such a freaking good and also very important episode for you guys. Today we are interviewing the one and only Terry Cole. Now, if you don't know who Terry Cole is, she is a psychotherapist
based out of New York. We've had the privilege of interviewing her once before and on that episode we spoke all around cheating and can you overcome cheating in a relationship the effects that cheating can have on a relationship. Basically, we did cheating from the inside out on that episode and it was freakin' amazing. But what we're talking about on today's episode is Terry Cole's speciality. It is the
thing that she has written multiple books on. One of them was a best selling book called Boundary Boss, and that is dinging.
We are talking about boundaries.
The reason why I think this is so important is because boundaries is the benchmark, the cornerstone of self help. It's what we speak about all the time. But often sometimes boundaries can come across as a little bit woo woo in sense of how does one set boundaries? What do boundaries actually look like in a relationship? Because it's so easy to talk about them as a construct, it's very very challenging to implement and set boundaries in your relationships.
And often we speak about boundaries as being essential to romantic relationships, but we're covering so much more in this episode.
I think a really important thing to point out is speaking about boundaries between parents and their children, because we do romanticize this idea that you should be best friends with your children instead of having that parental relationship. But Terry has some pretty strong feelings about that. I think is really important because I hadn't really heard it from that perspective before.
Another thing that I really loved about this chat is that we also cover disordered boundaries, what they look like, and codependency and how those true things relate to each other. There's so much in this and if you're somebody who feels as though you need to set better boundaries in your relationships and with the people closest to you.
This episode is for you, Terry. Welcome back to Life on card.
Why thanks for having you, guys, I'm so sacked to be back.
Talk us through the basics.
What is a boundary and why are they important in relationships?
So I want you to think about your boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement. This is lets other people know what's okay with you what's not okay with you. According to me, your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers. Right, So those four things are what your boundaries are made up of. And it's not enough to know them, which part of the problem is most people don't even know them. But you have to know them and then have the ability
to communicate them readily when you so choose. So why are they important? This is how people know us because think about your boundaries, preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers. They're not just your boundaries. All of those things also make up who you are, uniquely yourself. So when we've been taught to be the cool girl, you know me, no fuss, no muss, whatever's good with you, it's all good, it's
all good. What we're really doing is denying the people in our life the ability to actually know who we are. Like a lot of times we do it because we don't like conflict or we don't want any problems. We want everyone. We're managing the crap out of the people in our sphere. And the real question is why, you know.
What people always ask me is why don't I know? Right, especially because my crew is like super high functioning, highly capable women in particular, that is my posse, And they just don't get They feel bad, They're like, I could figure out anything. Why can't I figure this out? And it's basically, you don't know it because nobody taught you. It's as long and as short as that, and just like a language, you can learn it.
What about in terms of if you're a people pleaser and you find it difficult to disappoint people, And I think because like I've heard boundaries being spoken about in terms of, you know, you have a low self worth and that's why you're finding it hard to kind of put down and lay down your boundaries and communicate those boundaries. But what if you don't have a low self worth.
What if you feel as though you are confident in yourself, but you have this innate feeling that you hate making people feel disappointed, and therefore you always seem to go above and beyond, not because you're lacking in self confidence, but because you hate this feeling of like I'm a disappointment or I've disappointed them.
Well, kind of what you're talking about is what my next book is about, which is high functioning codependency.
Yeah. Right, so Laura, can we order the first copy? We're back to having a therapy session where Laura unpacks her own trauma. Yes, we end up you no, But I mean I do ask the question because and it probably is one that is introspective, but I do find it very challenging for myself. I am a people pleaser and I find it very hard to say no to people if they have guilted me into doing something.
Yeah, and we had this exact and I know exactly what you're saying. We had this exact conversation over the last few days with Laura, this exact thing. I actually it couldn't be more perfect timing. Where Laura is so confident and sure of herself, but she will always say yes when she doesn't want to do something for that
exact reason, because she doesn't want to disappoint someone. And even through the way, I was like, but that's your boundary, Like you don't want to do this, you don't have to do it.
She's like, but I just feel bad, all right.
So we're really what we're talking about is the same exact thing. And you can understand why I'm writing a whole book about it, because it is about disordered boundaries. Because when you say yes when you really want to say no, that's a dysfunctional boundary, obviously, but you don't have to The reason why I came up with a new I coined a new phrase, high functioning codependency, because I'm like you, and because my crew is like you.
We're highly capable, like masters of the universe, getting shit done, doing all the things, and running the stuff. Like a lot of times, we're the person that people go to in your friendship group. You're the rock and the family. You're the one that makes everything happen, and yet you are most likely overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the decisions, the circumstances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.
And that's the definition of being a high functioning codependent. So the why you don't want to disappoint people is going to be as unique as your childhood was. Right, We're all going to have our why as to what does it mean why we don't want to disappoint. But what really becomes evident in the teaching of the high function codependency is that when we continue to self abandon force ourselves to do crap we don't want to do, say yes, we want to say no, that's a heavier
price to pay. And so what ends up happening is you will learn in your life if you want to to get over this people pleasing aspect of your personality, because it really doesn't match really the rest of your personality. Lar like what we're talking about, it actually kind of doesn't. And think about it this way, when we say yes when we want to say no, we're doing it with resentment. There's a cost to the relationship to how we feel
about the person. Because in my twenties I was much more of a people pleaser then, and it's like I would be like, oh, Betty is so entitled it's her. I cannot believe why she asked me to do all this stuff? What the hell is wrong with her? And it's funny. A girlfriend of mine, Kate NORTHRP, we were walking in New York a bunch of years ago and she was complaining the whole time about this person who she done so much for and she was like, who
is like this? I can't believe she's asking me to do more blah blah blah like the whole time where we were walking to an event and when we got there, I said, yeah, Kate, she's got some nerve putting you in a position to have to say no. And she was like, oh my god, Derek, you're so right. It's literally on me to say no. I'm like, yeah, because here's the thing, you guys, and you know this taker's going to take. Yeah, it's up to the givers to set limits.
How do you then get over the feeling that someone is not going to like you, or they're going to be angry at you, or there's going to be repercussions for the know in which you're placing and whether that be within your own family, whether that be within a work environment. I think for people who struggle to set boundaries. It's often because they're so worried about how that's going to impact the other person.
How do I get over the feeling? Well, you learn to tolerate the feeling, and then you start to have positive experiences because it's not just a bad feeling that comes. When you set honest boundaries, you deepen the intimacy in your life, you allow yourself to excelt you have relationships that also feed you. You allow people to help you,
like there's more mutuality when you're not managing people. Because here's what's happening, when you're saying yes when you really want to say no. And you, guys, let's all get clear. If you are in a relationship, if you have a family, it doesn't mean we're never going to do shit we don't want to do. We do it for love, we do it for compromise. We do it because that's called
being in a relationship. We're talking about times when you really could say no when it really is your decision to make, and that you don't allow yourself to say no. That's what we're talking about and the real question and what I would say this could be helpful to anybody listening is try to get to the original injury, because there is one. What is it about when when someone is wanting something from you that you kind of don't want to give them or don't have the bandwidth for,
or or tired or whatever? Who do they remind you of? Right? The three questions that we ask to figure out if you're having a transferences, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? And how is this behavioral dynamic? Right? Like someone asking me to do something I don't want to do, but then me doing it and then be feeling resemple? How is that familiar to you? Maybe you saw it with the adults in your life, maybe you've experienced it or maybe in childhood.
I don't know, but that can help figure out why it feels so threatening, because what you're describing as a child's feeling of that experience, because grown up you doesn't feel that way.
What would you say constitutes or represents somebody who is very bad at sitting boundaries?
Like?
What does that look like?
And how could they identify that they're bad at boundary setting?
All? Right, So let's look at the types of boundaries that there are and if anyone wants to know their boundary type, I have a free quiz online. It's just boundaryquiz dot com. It's super easing and there's thirteen quick questions. Then it'll tell you there's like seven archetypes. So you might be more of a peacekeeper, or might be more of a chameleon, and you will get your results from the quiz anyway. So you could have porous boundaries, which
are boundaries that are too malleable. They're too loose, right, So that's more saying yes when you want to say no. More of a chameleon, more of a peacekeeper, more of a pushover type. You might have rigid boundaries. And this is the thing that people barely ever talk about. They feel like having bad boundaries only means being like a doormat to other people. That's not true. Having rigid boundaries
is the my way, the highway people. The people who would be so quick to literally cut you off if you hurt their feelings, They couldn't go to you in like two point two seconds rather than be vulnerable and tell you that you hurt their feelings. So a rigid boundary is where your boundary is too hard. There's no flexibility. And then in the middle of that, of course, it's healthy boundaries where there's a certain healthy flexibility where we
can compromise and we can work with other people. But we know who we are, we know what we think, we value our own opinions, we know that we're not responsible for other people's feelings. Right, Like, the definition really is is being super clear about what is your side of the street emotionally and in every other way, and what is someone else's side of the street. And when you have enmeshed or porous boundaries, you don't know that
you feel like your friend's crisis is your crisis. Like you can tell if you have disordered boundaries in this way and in a codependent way, if you check your urgency the moment your friend calls you and is in a panic, how quickly is your heart racing and you being like, oh my god, I'm googling the answer, I know someone, I'm texting people. I'm in fix it mode immediately. But it's like taking it on rather than being like, how can I best support you? Or you know what
I mean? The foundation of codependency is disordered boundaries, right, because what does it mean when you're codependent, overly invested in, overly involved in feeling states, outcomes, relationships, circumstances of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace, financial wellbeing, spiritual wellbeing. You cannot be codependent and have good batday. Those two things don't go together.
And when you really think about codependency, it is a covert or overt bid to control other people's.
Outcomesh's that I've been doing on one for thirty six years.
Yeah, that's happened.
I also think it's so important to note like well, I mean, I don't want to say it's easy, but it is easy in a way, to change who you are and your boundaries that you do put on your life and your friends and your relationships.
I used to be like you, Laura, and we were talking about this last night too.
I used to have no boundaries, say yes, let people walk all over me, do everything, never want to hurt anyone's feelings. And then I think I just got shot on so many times that I am so far on the other spectrum now where I just if I do not want to do something that I don't have to do, I can pretty easily say no. Obviously, there are times you do something you want to do, and I think that's important to note. There's always going to be things that you do for a certain reason that you don't
want to do, like that is life. But when you don't have to actually turn up somewhere and you're doing it completely against your will, that's when you have to start saying no.
We also see people abuse the use of the idea of boundaries, like instead of saying and using boundaries as a weapon in a relationship like well this is my boundary, I'm just telling you how I feel, and like we've all learnt this sort of therapy talk.
Now.
We saw it recently with the big conversation that hit the media, which was Jonah Hill and how he tried to set boundaries with his ex girlfriend and what did that look like?
Or it's just being an asshole?
Yeah, And I guess my big question here is is how does one recognize the difference between what is healthy boundary setting and when someone is actually using it as a control technique or not even if it's controlled, but just that they're being an asshole with the boundaries that they're trying to set.
But it is control though, So let's go back to that, especially if we're talking about the Jonahill Sarah Brady thing. Well, he was presenting his coercive control over her. He met her and knew she was a surfer. He met her because of her Instagram feed, and now he's like, you can't wear a bathing suit and your Instagram feed, that's
my boundary. No, it would be like Sarah Brady saying to him, I met you and you were a famous actor, and now it's a year in or eight months in, and my boundary is that you don't ever have a kissing scene with another actor. That's my boundary. No, it's not. That's also not a boundary. So how do we know is when the other person is using the term boundary, but what they're doing is trying to control you with it. So I'm going to give you an example. I had a client who had a husband who he liked to
go to bed late. She liked to go to bed early, and this kind of brought a bunch of conflict in the relationship. She was always coming in being like, I don't know why he goes to a bit so late. It's like ridiculous, And he comes in and wakes me up, blah blah blah. And my problem with the whole thing is that he would not be considerate. So she'd go to bed at ten, he'd come in at one and basically turn the light on, get undressed in the bedroom. You're like, this is so she was like, he should
come into bed earlier. He needs more sleep. It's my boundary. And I was like, no, that's you trying to control him. That's you being his mother. That's you thinking he's a grown man. If he wants to sleep six hours a night, that literally is his prerogative in life. Where it is your boundary is making a simple request that he get dressed undressed in the other room, that he used a small light from his phone. Who is not flipping on the overhead light while you've been asleep for three hours?
Like that's where it spilled down to her side of the street. And also, you know, we talked about them compromising and then they decided, you know, three nights a week to go to bed ten together or whatever it was. But that's the distinction. Her trying to control his bedtime is not a boundary. Yeah, her making a request that he not be an inconsiderate boob is right. That is a boundary to say I have a simple request that you not wake me up, and they were able to
reach that agreement. But I think that's a good distinction between control and actual boundary.
How important do you think it is to set your boundaries at the beginning of a relationship, just talk about romantic relationships as opposed to implementing your boundaries along the way as things come up. And in saying that, are you allowed to just change a boundary whenever you want?
Like you know, something was okay yesterday, it's not okay anymore.
Yes, now, I wouldn't do it that willy nilly, let's say. But the question is can we evolve in a relationship. Maybe I was willing to do X, Y and Z five years ago. Maybe I'm no longer willing to do that, and that requires a conversation acknowledging, Hey, this used to work for me and it no longer does, so let's renegotiate this. It's why I always have couples do what's called what I call a couple of vision, where annually you sit down and you're like, Okay, how do we
want to spend our money? How do we want to spend our time. If we have free time, are we talking about the right things? Are we having enough sex? Are we like where are we? And every other week? Also having a state of the Union because we do change. I mean, jeez, I hope so like, are we hoping that we're going to stay like we were when we
were seniors in high school? No? So the most important thing, though, in a relationship is have really in depth conversations about what works, about how you feel about things, about what you want. I remember when I met my husband, I was so overdating in New York City. I was single. I'd had long term relationships, but I was like a serial monogamous where it was, you know, I was like, yeah, for now, but like forever. No, definitely, not as soon
as they'd be like I think we should engaged. I'm like, I think we should break up until my husband actually and I remember being like, I'm so much happier, Like I've built a really great life, so being alone there's nothing wrong with it. I've had three amazing careers, I've got great friends, I traveled around the I do what
I want, that's what I want to do. And I remember when I met my husband, I just straight up was like, I'm looking for someone to be a partner who wants to buy a second home with me, who would consider having a kid, who would like I just said all the things because I was like, here's the thing. If he's like, wow, that's scary, bye, I don't have time. I don't care. And so there was something so liberating about telling the truth about how I felt setting boundaries right.
I didn't want someone who had addiction issues because I had addictiony like I was in recovery. It was like, I don't need anyone who's got any of those issues for me. Right. There was a whole bunch of things, and in being able to just say them, it wasted no time. And my husband at the time he was like, sounds good.
I wait all that sound I think so many of us have been guilty of being fearful of asking for what we want in case the answer back is no, yeah, And then so you think, well, maybe if I bide myself a little bit more time, they'll change their mind.
It's like hiding who you are, hiding what you want, and then being in a relationship and being like, yeah, I wonder why I feel existentially lonely in this relationship. Oh, I know why, because the person doesn't know who you are because you're too busy trying to be what you think they want you to be. And there's something so liberating.
And I see this with my therapy clients when they finally just get like, what is unique about them, who they are, that is their special sauce, Like, it's not like trying to be like other people and embracing that.
And when you have that kind of level of self respect, what ends up happening is that it is just it magnetizes the right people to you because you're not afraid, you're not afraid to be alone, you're not afraid to tell the truth, you're not afraid to say no. And I always feel this way about people getting sexual really early. Speaking of boundaries, because back to BRIT's question about do we set the boundaries early and often or do we
wait to see what comes up? I think with important things, we shouldn't wait to see what comes up because by then you've already invested your youth and your beauty, you've
already invested your time, maybe your body. Who knows, right, So being truthful about what you're looking for, even if it's you're looking for something that can turn into something right, and exactly what you said, Laura, like, you know, if someone's like, oh, it's casual, and if you go out with them, even though there's the exact opposite of what you're looking for. That is self abandonment, that is putting what they want of what you want, and who knows
why they're saying it. You're right, people can change their mind and if you go no. I mean I know a couple of where this happened where he was trying to break up with her after two years and she was like, this is what you do. You're ridiculous, this is this is your pattern. We're meant to be and you're definitely going to wake up and see that, So forget about trying to break up with me. I have
but learning how to talk. And they actually got into almost therapy and they've been married for thirty years now. But I thought that was really funny where she was like, this is this is your pattern and it's just dumb.
But also that, I mean, I feel like I've been in that situation before where someone tried to break up with me and I just said, no, you're not going Yeah, my boundary because I wasn't ready. I was like, my boundary is no, and they were like, okay, but they wanted to break up.
With me, but they were codependent and they found it really hard to set boundaries.
So they said, okay, so we both just stayed, like just because I wasn't ready.
I would love to unpack a little bit more of a situation where say somebody has and I know we touched on cheating so much in a last conversation that we had with you, But say you're geting someone who has cheated or they have done some serious damage to the relationship because their actions or whatever were outside of
what was the agreed upon arrangement. Let's say they've gone out and cheated, and then in order to rebuild that trust, you do have rules around your boundaries, like you're not allowed to be on this type of Instagram, or you're not allowed to be doing this or xyz. Does that then cross over into controlling that person or are they boundaries, because I kind of wonder if in order to repair the damage, there needs to be some rules around behavior so that the trust can be rebuilt.
See the thing is it really depends on the situation. Because that becomes so much like mothering and monitoring and managing and all this crap that is not your responsibility. And what does it say about someone like I know that there are many people in my field who are like you know, listen, Cheating can be the best thing that ever happened to a relationship, and it can become super strong because of it. Yes, it can, and it
can also just be habitual. Hell, so I think it depends on the history and the person and what does the person who cheated want. Do they really want to be together? Do they have the history of this? Is this the only time ever that it's happened. Because here's the thing, most people, there's two reasons people cheat. According to me, you cheat because there's something pathologically happening within you. Right, we have habitual cheaters who just this is what they do.
They could be sex addicts, they could be love addicts. They just can't get enough. They can't one relationship is not gonna be enough. That's one scenario. And then you have people who cannot communicate in a relationship. They're not
getting their needs met. They build up so much resentment that they become sort of low hanging fruit to have an affair because part of them just needs to get the hell out of the relationship, and you know, it's surify away of getting out is getting caught usually right if it's that case, And then they get into therapy and start talking and start really dealing with all the
shit they haven't dealt with. That's where I see it's possible for there to be you know, a coming back together and honestly having it be better than it was originally. But you have to excavate all of that stuff. You have to talk about those things. So I know what you're saying about the boundaries, Like, it makes sense to a degree, because how are you going to you know,
build trust back. But just the thought of that of being in a relationship and being like, hmm, you can't be on this thing because you follow models or you can't. It just seems so beneath the person who's having to be like, let me see your phone, you know what I mean?
Like totally, I was just putting myself in the situation as we're talking, and I would rather not be in a relationship with someone if I had to put those boundaries on someone and say I want access to your phone whenever I want. You cannot have Instagram. You know,
you cannot be out drinking on a Friday. If I had to be putting those boundaries because I was worried they were going to cheat on me, personally, I wouldn't be in the relationship because I just think trust is obviously the numb one thing in a relationship and if they need to rebuild truck if they've cheated on you.
But for me, it's I know.
But the thing is, though, and I sympathize with anyone who's been in this situation because what is normal changes so quickly, and like if you've been with someone for X amount of time and then you start this behavior and you're in this type of relationship where you do check their phone or you are monitoring them because you know they were the ones who originally broke your trust, Like it.
Becomes normal to you.
And then the more you do it, the more you justify the reasons why you're doing it, and like it's so easy from the outside to go. I would never want to be in a relationship like that, And I feel the same. I would never want to be in a relationship like that, But no one wants to be But sometimes you find yourself there and then you think, how the fuck did I get here?
How is this my life that I'm living with this anxiety?
Well, it's something I wanted to ask Terry as well is and it happens all the time in my friend groups.
We get people right into us all the time.
But it's how do you set a boundary and actually keep it? Because so many people I know and exactly what you just said, It slowly, it erodes, it morphs, and it becomes normal. How do you set your boundary and actually make sure it's true to what you want in the relationship, because like, you know, people go into a relationship and they're like, my boundary is you don't
do drugs and you don't cheat on me. You know, six months in they're cheating because they're on drugs, and then all of a sudden someone's like, okay, well just don't do it again. Like how many times are you allowed to bend that boundary? And how do you make sure it's like setting stone?
Well, part of it is we have to acknowledge and understand we can't and don't control other people. But how boundaries work with repeat offenders? Because that's what you guys are actually talking about is someone where there's a repeated offense where we've established a boundary and maybe they've agreed to the boundary and now they're stepping over the boundary.
So there has to be a consequence. So let's just say I had this example of this was actually a therapy client of mine who was in a relationship with someone and their agreement right one of her non negotiables, because that's important. Part of boundary is to know, like what is not negotiable for you in your life, and one of those things was exactly what you said, Britt, which was drugs and drinking were not her thing. She
was in recovery. This guy was in recovery, and they were together for a year and a half, super happy, and then he relapsed and in the beginning she was like, Okay, just get back to meetings, blah blah blah, and then he relapsed again, and she basically is like, I can't live like this because it's threatening my sobriety. And she said, if you don't get ninety days in the next ninety days,
then you have to move out. And so there has to be a consequence of like you've got to get it together or I'm moving out until you have six months or nine months or whatever it is, and then you have to be willing to follow through. So I think that part of what people don't do is they don't set up a consequence, right, even if it's something simple.
It could be as simple as let's just say you're at home and you're making dinner and you're saying to your significant other, let me know if you're going to be late, so then you know I won't have the food ready when whatever. And if they don't do that, and if they don't do that, so two times, three times, there's got to be a point where you go, Okay,
we've had this conversation. You said you'd let me know, and so I'm now not making food for you, like your food's in the fridge, eating whenever you want to, I'm eating without you. Now. As much as that may sound punishing, there's a reality that if you have a boundary and it continues to be crossed, you have to come up with what that consequence will be for you. So especially and with the cheating as well, it's like
there has to be something. Either we get into therapy together, you get in therapy alone, you move out until you get it together and we can decide whether you want to. So there's got to be something because if not, what is the thing that motivates human behavior? I hate to say it, but it's pain, right, And if there's no cost except you being mad for a period of time, it's not likely that someone's behavior is going to change.
No grey standard behavior, isn't it? Human and animal response? We live and thrive off positive and negative reinforcement, and that is how we learn. It's how you train a dog, right, they do the right thing, You give them a reward, you give them their food. They don't you put them outside, they're cold and they don't have their food. This is how they learn and humans. I don't think humans are any different.
I like, yeah, anytime my husbands naughty, I with no clothes, lead and no food.
What do you do you think?
You set boundaries the same way in relationships, friendships and work relationships. So are all relationships grouped into the same boundaries setting category or do you have to take a different tactic?
Definitely take a different tactic because think about it. The real thing with work is that if there is a power differential, that has to be considered because you're not gonna draw the same type of boundary with your boss. I think you have to be proactive and calculating with the boundaries that you set at work with people who have power over you. So you have to take that in consideration. People will write me notes and be like, how do I tell my boss how I feel about
blah blah blah. I'm like, ps, you don't because it's not even appropriate and he doesn't give a shit how you feel. But how can we get proactive and still get your need? Meant? You don't need to be understood by your boss, you know what I mean. But if your boss is stepping over a boundary and calling you on the weekends and expecting you to work and you're not being paid for that work on weekends or whatever,
we need to get the data. When it comes to work boundaries, it's all about what is the data, what is the problem, what is the issue? What is the boundary that's needed? And then you look and see how is the company laid out? Does it make the most sense to go to human resources? Because it depends on is your boss like a normal person or are they like a rage of narcissist and they're going to take it out on you and find a way to fire you.
So I think we really do have to take into consideration who has power over us, which is very different than a coworker or very different than your friends, where you have equal power. You can make a simple request about some of their behavior and ask them to change something, you know what I mean.
I find this really interesting because I would assume that people who are codependent, who probably struggle with boundaries, already struggle with the different type of relationship within a workplace in terms of they may cross over the boundaries or what's an appropriate relationship with a boss or with colleagues, and so therefore their personal life and their work life has become this muddled mess, and so they feel entitled to have conversations that may not be like you know,
as you say, your boss doesn't. Of course they care in some way, but like it's not their responsibility to sit down and deeply care about the way you feel and all of the intricacies around your experience. They want it to be a good culture in the workplace. They want you to be able to be efficient, get your work done. But I think sometimes we by our actions muddle those relationships and so then it becomes very conflated.
Without a doubt, and that's bad for everyone. Yeah, it's bad for you. It's bad for your productivity, but it's so bad for your internal life. You don't want everyone knowing your business, right, it can impact what happens to you at work, whether you get a promotion or not. They're like, well, your husband's doing great. You don't need it, Like you don't know. Like my feeling is, keep work at work, keep your personal relationships personal, and be as
professional as possible at work because that's what's appropriated. It doesn't mean you can't be friendly, right, we can be friendly, but though you have enough friends, like do we need to become friends and the people we work with.
I learned this lesson the hard way, and I mean for everyone who's listening probably knows. But I have another business, which is Tony May. I'm a jority designer. We have employee staff, and I used to be best friends with all my staff, Like I would become such close friends and like we would all go out together, we would all do things together. And it made it incredibly hard
for me as a business owner. As the boss of them when they had done something that was not right, where they had broken the boundaries of work, or they just weren't showing up to work in a way that was in any way productive, and I was still having to pay them. It made it impossible for me to have a conversation with them about it, and.
Especially because on top of that, you're a people Please.
Yeah, because and I hated it.
It was honestly, it caused me so much internal conflict for many years. And now I'm at a point now where we have a bigger staffing, like we have the most stuff we've ever had. My sister, who works with me, kind of is that second buffer. And I'm friendly with everyone, but I'm not friends with everyone, and it's a much more professional relationship. And it has served me and my sanity and my anxiety so much better, so much better.
And it also serves your employees better, yeah, one hundred percent, because they don't want the responsibility of being friends with their boss because they're unclear about what the lines are, you know what I mean? Because and I did the
same in my young life as a talent agent. Oh my god, it was like, you know, everyone was under twenty five every We've represented all these young hart people like no Showmance's Romances Office forget it, Like it was just a mess and it was so hard, especially when it was people I'm supposed to be, you know, having power over where I know their entire life story. I'm too busy giving people therapy, well long before I was
a therapist. It doesn't make you a good leader. And I think that what ends up happening And you're seeing this of course in your business, learn that it ends up that when you have better boundaries, especially at work, having really clear boundaries, really good onboarding policies, letting people know the best way to communicate and when when they can expect to hear back from you, Letting your employees
know what you expect from them. Like it's amazing now that I run a whole company, how managing expectations with clear and clean agreements, How much more productive the company is, how much more money there is to make? How much better people feel? You know?
I read something recently.
Are you kind of dispatched my memory on this when you were speaking about dynamics within workplaces? But I think about this in terms of dynamics with parents. I kind of think This can happen a lot in single parent relationships like mother child relationships, especially where like you become best friends with your children, like my child is my
best friend. I can only imagine that that is quite an enormous load for a child to carry to be a parent's best friend, especially because they don't have the mental or cognitive load to be able to take on all of the burdens.
Of what adult life is.
Can you talk to me a little bit about that sort of like parent child dynamic and what determines a poor boundary in that sort of relationship.
Yep, that's such a great point. And it's funny because I always say, if you're if you're a parent, and you're saying my daughter's my best friend, I always say, she wishes you stop saying stuff in search an albatross around her neck. And there's this responsibility that comes with that. Your kids want you to have your own friggin life. Your kids don't want to have to worry about you,
and they shouldn't have to. And healthy family system, to the best of our ability, it is child focused, not child obsessed, right, So clarification child focused in an appropriate way. A kid is going through school they're playing a sport, you're taking them to that sport or to dancing, and you're going to see them, and you're coordinating their doctors, and they're going to their birthday parties. And child focused
not parent focused. So when it's parent focused because the parent either has an addiction issue or as a single parent is overwhelmed as exhausted as whatever, that puts the burden on the kid. So what are healthy boundaries. Children shouldn't be worried about the electricity bill, right, A nine year old shouldn't know that you're running out of cash like it's a burden, because there's also nothing that a nine year old can do to change that. Right. These
are adult problems that need adult solutions. Talking to a child about your love life, talking to your child about the other parent, whether you're together or not, all of these things are nos. Do not do this. Do not triangulate your kid, especially if you're separated or divorced. Let your child love the other parent, please, because they need to. And if they feel that split loyalty, my God, that
reverberates throughout the rest of their lives. Talk about codependency, talk about dialing into someone's feelings, talk about the kid being in what we call therapeutically a double bind, meaning you're just screwed. Either way, you're screwed. If you love your mother, then your father feels bad. If you love your father, your mother feels bad. Like bad mouthing, bad mouthing the other person. Never do that to your kid,
even if the other person is a total asshole. Even if your co parent is a psycho, which they may be, and I'm sorry if that's your situation, do not talk about them in that way. Do the best that you can to protect your kid from that. But you can't put that on a child. So I think, really it's always being the grown up. Like when you're the grown up, it's you, and that means you can't need your child's approval. That means you've got to stop saying to a three
year old, is it okay? I mommy? Whatever, it's okay because the kid is three.
Well, how you doing it?
Don't ask them if it's okay. Stop giving them so many choices. They don't need forty four choices for lunch. Let them choose between peanut butter and jelly and grill trees like there's age appropriate decision making, and I'm all for that right we learn as we grow, but I feel like with a lot of parents, there's so much anything you want or everything you want or what can I do? Oh, I'm like a short order cook where my friend says, you know, I do four different meals
every night for everyone. I'm like, why, Like for whose benefit? That makes you feel needed? And it shows them that the world is going to give a shit about their every desire, which it does not and will not. Like it's too much instant gratification. I feel like.
Being so many romanticized TV shows that highlight this beautiful friendship that happens between mother and daughter, and I know that you can have that, but I'm guessing it is over an appropriate age.
But there's a way to do that without impinging on their independence. There's a way to just tell the truth. Hey, when you're becoming sexual, let's I'll take you to the gynecologists. Let's talk about that. We don't or we don't have to massively talk about it, but I will bring you to the right doctor. Because here's what happens in teenage land. We need to separate and individuate. And if you have a mom who's a best friend who you can't get mad at, who you're not allowed to reject in some
way because we're besties. It complicates this process that we kind of have to go through. I mean, and not everyone. I don't feel like I really did as a teenager myself. I was too busy because my sisters were all bad, so I was. But it's like I couldn't differentiate, I couldn't act out because they'd already done it all taken that sway exactly. But you know what I mean. A daughter needs to step out, which is why you need to have rules. You need to have boundaries when you're parenting.
They need to have a curfew because they need to step outside of that curfew. So if you don't have boundaries, now they got to step that much further out to differentiate to get your attention. So it's not personal to you give them a curfew. They're gonna come home late sometime, and then you're going to be like, and now you can go out on Saturday. Like appropriate punishment, right appropriate. You're putting limits on what they're doing, but you're showing
them consequences. We're teaching them deductive reasoning, critical thinking skills. This is our job as parents, And if you need that adelation or that adoration or that friendship from your kid, it's the wrong place to get it, because sometimes your kid is going to be like, I can't stand you, I hate you, You're so mean. Let them you can say I. I remember one time our youngest son said to my husband we were dripping him off at therapy. He was acting out as being so bad at that point,
and he got out of the car. He was like fifteen, and he was like, I loathe you, he said to my husband as he's leaving, And my husband said, I love you too, son, And he was like, I said, great, you.
Sk the term like low do you do what?
Though?
I love the way you just described that, because I don't think I've ever in my life thought about and like going back to the specific example of a curfew, I would only have ever seen the consequence as a punishment. I would have only ever seen like I'm being punished. But I do really enjoy this reframe of like this is me teaching you and setting up the rules of which that there are consequences when things don't happen, because like, it's not about punishing your kids for doing the wrong thing.
But it's about setting that expectation of how you want them to treat you and the rules of which they have to abide to to live within a house, especially as teenagers.
Would almost lets to manage their own life. You can go out on Friday night, you have to home at eleven. If you want to stay out later, great, but you won't go out next week. Like, let them have the autonomy to make that decision of is that extra hour worth not going out.
I have this constant conversation with my partner and I'm like, how do we build resilience in kids that are genuinely lucky? Like I can very much look at our kids and say they are privileged, they are lucky, and they are growing up in a household an environment where they're not short on love and they're not short on the things that they need in life.
So how do you build that? How do you make sure that they're not just entitled little brats that.
Make them work, don't give them everything, don't apply them with all these material things, like make them work for things, don't be the answer to everything. How about ask your kids expansive questions the moment they have a problem don't get into fix it mode, say hey, what do you think you should do? What does your guts say? Because you have a good gut, I trust it, So what is your guts? Like, we're building their ability to trust themselves.
And if they don't know, that's okay. But part of it is we have to teach them to problem solve, and we do that through conversation. Now freaking out like they do something bad. Let's say they fail a test because they didn't study. You trying to figure it out. You have a lot of parents who are like, I'm gonna go talk to the school and tell them that you were sick and that blah blah blah, no allowing them listen, you fail because you didn't study. That is
a consequence for your chosen action. If you want me to help you study the next time, I will. If you need more support, if you need a tutor because you don't understand, right, But we have to let the chips fall where they may and let kids experience some consequences for their actions and stay lovingly connected to them throughout, not in a mean way, like not sadistically right, Like we're doing it in a way of like yeah, that sucks. Okay, So we're here now and I'm here with you, but
I'm not fixing it because you want them. Like, think about how resilient you became in your life. And I think about this in my life because when I was raised, people were like good luck, Like my parents. Parents had no good idea where we were at any given moments, at any end. I was going to bars at fourteen. I looked twenty four like, stuff like, how am I alive? And nothing awful happen to me? I have no idea, But.
I don't remember going on my bike.
Like on a Saturday morning, you'd go on the bike and they'd be like see you at five.
You'd be gone for ten. They don't know where you are. There's no phone.
My mom would literally say, don't come home till it's getting dark.
Yeah, you imagine I would never now.
Now like I do.
Think it's hard though, because we're exposed to so much more of the realities of what can happen, and so the unrelenting news cycle the Netflix documentaries is about all the horrible things that happened to kids.
It creates the fear in.
You, and so we now are more helicopter because we're very aware of like the worst case scenario. But I think we're the first generation to be that, And so you think, well, then what's that going to do to our kids when they don't have the agency to fall down, hurt themselves and figure it out themselves because we're always there to protect that.
I remember once, this is a memory that was popped into my head. I remember once that happened. Right, go on your bike, come home in ten hours and I was so far away in a quarry and I feel off broke. I broke my arm and I couldn't move or it was like completely snapped in half.
And then my other brother.
I had to wait for my other brother to ride by the quarry flag him down, and then he had to ride like an hour home. Then my dad had to drive into the quarry to pick me up because it's like no phone, there's no and.
I mean, you're going to live, right, like you're.
Going to live. And I think that is a shit that pills res doings.
Yeah, where you go through hard things and you're like, okay, I guess I can do that. But another thing I wanted to say about the parenting thing with boundaries is that when we insert ourselves into the middle of someone else's problem, even our kids were really centering that problem on us. And what we really want to be doing with kids in particular, is we want to let it be centered on them. What do they think they should do,
how do they feel about it? Tell me more about it, like open ended questions, and you know you'll figure it out. But don't be so afraid for your kid to fail, because they're going to be fine. We all felt right when we all broke our arms and sat there for four hours, as you just said, and somehow here you are, right.
Yeah, Terry, thank you so much for all of your wisdom. We absolutely adore speaking to you. And I know for me there's so many moments and the things that you spoke about that I relate too deeply. And I know that for our listeners there will be people who have picked up parts of these conversations, whether it was parenting, whether it's codependency, whether it's navigating in their own relationships. I think there's been so much in this for life, literally for everybody.
Well, thank you guys for having me. I do want to make one mention that I do have a workbook now that goes with the Boundary Boss book. So this actually just came out for anyone who wants a workbook. You guys wanted more scripts. That's what There's probably two thirds of that book is scripts. So people are absolutely loving it. And if you guys want to take the Boundary Quiz, just go to boundary quiz dot com.
People when they want to go and have a confrontation of sorts or set their boundaries, that's the thing they say, right even with friends like how do you reckon?
I say that? What do I say to him?
Like?
You know, you know the message you want to get across, but people have no idea how to put it into words.
So I think that's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much, Terry, thanks for having me guess.
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