Lyn's Law, no body no parole

Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander peoples today.

This episode is recorded on Gaddigal Land of the Aurora Nation. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.

I'm Laura and I'm Brittany, and it has been a wild, wild weekend. Hou's not Laura, Well, I mean you drove to Port McCory.

What was so wild?

Well, not about mine. You started off this morning and I don't know this story yet. You came in and you said, I'm mad. I haven't slept, had a running on the weekend. You've left me on the edge of my seat.

You know, when something happens and it pisses you off so much that it just you're laying in bed at night time and you're like, and you replay in your head how you should have reacted to the situation every single day I've ever been on.

But do you know what I mean?

You're laying there and you're like, oh, I wish I'd said this and then you have like the perfect comeback.

But it's just like twelve hours too late.

What happened? So because you are you are describing my dating life, but you don't have a dating life, So what could it have been?

I just have children and that's who it has to do with. Okay, So I was at the beach. This is going to enrage other moms out there, and maybe it's someone who doesn't have kids who has to put up with like other people's kids being annoying. Maybe you will have some sympathy from the other side. So we went to Bronti Beach. It was a beautiful sunny day on Sunday. We decided we'd make the most of it. We took the kids down to the kid's end of Bronti Beach.

Right, So there is this little end at the beach where it has it's like the waves don't really hit it as much and it has a little pool.

It's a cute little swiet yeah, and it's like, look, it's not an official kids end, Like it's not just there's not a big sign when you get in there saying families only, but there are a lot of children down that end of the beach. The other end of the beach plenty of adults, more teenagers. But you know, we were down there at the family friendly end and Lola and Marley.

Were walking up the stairs.

There's several stairwells, and each stairwell to get down to the sand has an entrance and an exit, like you can access the stairs from either side. So on one side there's Marley and Lawla trying to get up the stairs. And Lola is eighteen months she's not very good at stairs, but she's fiercely independent and won't let me help her,

So is this to getting to the pool?

This is just to get to the beach, to get to the stack, to get onto the sand from the promenade. Long story short, Basically, she was trying to get down the stairs and there were three kids in the ways and it delayed her by like literally five seconds. And she turns around as Millie cuts her off, and she goes, oh, for fuck's sake, right in front of a four year old and right in front of Marley.

And I was so angry.

I was so angry.

So you were there with them, like standing next to was the blasphemy directed to the children or to you or just in an exasperation to the universe. Well, it was an exasperation that my children were stopping her from getting to the beach as fast as what she wanted to. But the thing is, she said it very.

Very loudly, which could have only been directed at my kids.

MM. And so what did you say?

I said, pull your head in?

And I went to say the airport, but I was like that sense very conund Yeah, that's I just want to say from me. But I was like, pull your head in. I'm like carried on. The woman jumped in the water, I had a quick swim, jumped out.

But I was like, what did she say? He you just you just glossed over this argument. So you have said, pull your head in, you know. Therefore, then what has she done?

She was obviously embarrassed, but didn't say anything and then ignored me.

And then and then I wanted to continue it, but I did it, and he chased it down and tackled her in the water.

And then I lay in bed last night thinking like what should I have said? But I was so caught off guard because I've never been in a situation where someone has sworn at my kids before.

So was your unrest in bed? Was that because you'd think you should have said more, or should have done less, or should have taken a higher row, like what more lower road? I should have gone? And like shot on her towel while she was having a swim, Like okay, So I'm going to give you the microphone right now, you have the chance to say to her whatever you wanted. What would you say to her now? What would you have done differently?

Look, let's give this woman the benefit of the doubt. She's in Bronti. If anyone wants to go find her and get their pitchfoks out, Let's give it the benefit of the doubt. She was probably having a really bad day and she just wanted to go for her swim cleanse off the day and not deal with someone else's children. I can appreciate that children are annoying, especially when they're not yours. Like I mean, I think I have a high tolerance and patience for my own kids.

I get it.

But I think that there's a very fine line between reprimanding or outwardly showing your distaste for someone's kids.

I think you have to really rate that in.

I agree, I think that she needs to be banned from both vision.

It just goes down the other end of the flags. Anyway, that has been keeping me up at night, and now I feel better for.

Telling everyone thank you Marley noticed, because I know Marley dropped their word before. Anyway, maybe this is where she's getting it from strangers.

Maybe this is where she's learning she gets it from me. Let's be real.

Well, I mean, nothing as eventful as happened to me. I did go to Port Mcruary this weekend for a flying trip for my dad's birthday. We did some we got drunk and painted. That was amazing and what a time to be alive. But I had a moment well A I forgot to turn my dating apps off right, and I.

Oh, dating and Port McCrary, what's that lie?

I always turned my dating apps off when I go home to Port McCrary because when you've grown up, and everyone that's listening right now will know that, when you have grown up in a small town and you were there for a very long time, there's a lot of people that you don't want to see and you don't want to match with. And I forgot because the first message I got was like, oh, you've come back to your grassroots. I see, And I was like, I have to delete this immediately.

Did you know who the person was? David for primary school?

I like, damn it. I forgot to snooze my dating apps because you can snooze your dating apps right. Then it's put me into this weird phase where we've spoken about it before. It's dating fatigue, right, And it's not just dating fatigue for me because I'm not fatigued at the moment by dating, but I'm online dating fatigued, so the online version, So I don't mind. I'm still happy to go on dates.

Oh, you want to meet people in the real world, you just don't want to have to do like the annoying like oh, how are you going? Like, you know, what did you grow up in Sydney?

Bullshit?

It's so annoying, And now I want to ask you a question because I don't know if I'm overreacting. But everything turns me off now, like everything I'm finding the most ridiculous things on people's profiles and the things that they're saying to be like no, even sometimes I match them and they say something and I'm just it's just a no. But like this one guy just wrote to me,

Cute, amazing I've just like in the sunset, you and the dog having a romantic time together.

So standard, and the comment all he wrote was hot energy. That's it, hot energy, and I was like, just a just Alilah have hot energy? Do I have hot energy? Where's the energy coming from?

That was it?

And I was nothing else, no other content, hot energy? Hot smile?

Is that a reason? And I was like, ill, gross, Ill? Is that a reason to be turned off and something happening to me that I need.

To deal with.

Look, I think you're probably picking it upart a little bit. But what do you write back to that?

Anyway? Thank you hot energy?

Where do you go with that? Yeah? And how do you tell my energy is hot?

I think he's just saying you are hot?

No, it wasn't, No, it was not.

Okay, Well, then what constitutes and appropriate sliding? Like? What is a message that someone could send that would make you reply I'm just.

Not having a lot of luck on there, and I I don't know it's me. So I got another message right on in my DMS, okay, in my Instagram DMS from a guy that said, hey, I saw you online. And now this started off well, right, I saw you online dating, So I thought, oh, he said I've seen you, then he's gonna he I obviously have a matched with me ye, and he's gonna ask me out. But that wasn't it. He said, Hey, I saw you online. Just wanted to let you know you probably shouldn't use dating apps.

That was it.

He went out of his way. I am not even kidding. I was like, oh my god, you have gone out of your way to to find me sliding to my DMS to tell me to stop using dating apps. You didn't want to ask me out, and then you told me to go to the supermarket to meet people.

Do you think he is also on dating apps but doesn't use them and only meets people in supermarkets?

Laura, Not all heroes where cakes. He's one of them. He was just coming in with some advice. But like, how it's a really hard time to be on the dating apps.

Okay, I'm going to say this. I do think that you can be too picky though. I think that a lot of people go into the whole chatting to people on dating apps. They go into it with minimal effort, and they're not invested because they might just be like, hey, what's up, how's your week been? Really blend and boring questions.

Well, I know it's too late for me. Like, I know I need to take a break because I did have a bit of a rule.

Produce A.

Kisha and I have spoken about this before. We both had a bit of a rule and we've said it on the podcast. Don't just start with a hey how are you? Like, get a bit of excitement, write to them about their prompts or their profiles, or just be be better than that. Right, But it's not the end better, but it's not well a, it's not the end of

I have a question though, if they're super hot, like if they are the hottest person under the sun, would you still be like, oh, that's not interesting enough.

Yes, I would, but I would respond now, I said to produce Akisha, I said, what if chatting Tatum wrote to you, Hey, how are you now? I don't believe it where it comes out of her mouth, but she said she would block and delete. I'm like, as if, but I know that I'm I'm not old. Well, I know I'm over it because I've started to do this. Last night I wrote to someone and said, Hey, how's your week? And then I was like, I was like,

There is nothing wrong with hey, how's your week? There's nothing wrong with it. It is a fine and appropriate way of starting a conversation.

Okay, so do you guys know about this? Someone has told us this before. I need to look into it a bit more. Apparently, you know how this guy wrote to me and said, go to the supermarket. Apparently there's a thing. There's a thing where you go to the supermarket and there are like low key like batman signals that you put out to other people that shows your

There's some underground sex club in Woolworth. Yeah, at the banana store.

I think that's what happened.

But if somebody knows, someone out there knows what I'm talking about. Right now, there are apparently signals that you can do in the fruit arena or something in the supermarket that lets somebody there know that you're the single today. And I don't know if it's rubbing your hand up and down the eggplant. I don't know if that's it, but there is a sign Brittany, just.

Deep throating and banana sub Okay. The problem is is that you're then expecting everybody else to know what these cues are.

I think it's an underground club like fight club. You don't talk about fight club, but everyone knows.

I don't think any.

We have a dating and Relationship podcast if we don't even know, I don't think any Mony Funky knows bri he has the problem.

Maybe I'm the problem.

Maybe maybe whole episode.

Okay, guys, let us tell you what today's episode is about because as much as we're having a lot of fun and many laughs at the start of this, we have quite a serious episode in terms of the conversation that we're having. We're interviewing a wonderful woman. Her name is Renee Sims.

Now.

Renee is the niece of Lynette Dawson, and I know so many of you will have heard that name, will have listened to the podcast and be as invested in it as what Britt and I are. But there is a podcast called The Teacher's Pet. It was hosted by investigative journalist Headley Tom and it's been produced for The Australian. Now this podcast series is all about the disappearance and murder of Lynette Dawson and recently her husband at the time,

It was just such a captivating story. It has been listened to fifty two million times all over the world, which it's a really powerful thing these days to know that somebody can tell their story and be heard all across the world. Because what happened with this is the reason that after forty years, I mean Lennett is the mother to two daughters, this will happen on the northern beaches of Sydney, which, in comparison to the rest of the world. You know, this is a time in little suburb.

I think the thing that's so interesting about this chat so the reason why we wanted to get Renee on the podcast. We obviously were so invested. I listened to The Teacher's Pet when I was traveling around New Zealand a few years back when it very first came out. But it has not been accessible for the last couple of years, and that's because the case had been reopened against her husband, Chris Dawson. Now, as you said, Chris has always maintained his innocence, but after forty years he's

Called Lynn's Law.

And what that means is is that if somebody is convicted of murder, as Chris Dawson has been, unless there is a body somebody who's found guilty, is not able to be eligible for parole.

Yeah, because crazily enough, and I didn't really realize until this petition for Lyn's Law was brought up. It's something I guess you don't think about. It is only in New South Wales currently, but you can still get parole without saying where the body is. And I think this is a brilliant thing to introduce to say that, well, do you know what, like, if you want any sort of leniency, you've got to provide us with something, You've got to give us something back.

Well, it also adds into closure for the family, So that is all coming up in a little while, we will get into Rene's story and into how her family are doing now that this verdict has been passed. But before we get into all of that, Brittany, there is something I wanted to update you on, and I know we've foked about it a little bit over last couple of days, weeks, maybe two weeks, the intimacy challenge. This is not about me, Okay, this is not about my intimacy.

It is, oh I did. I think it's hilarious.

It is called Carreza.

And we don't know if we're pronouncing this right, could be butchering it. It's called correza sex k A R E double z A. We're gonna go with Carreza, which is kind of like caress. Correza sex.

I can actually have the pronunciation here, oh, corretza corretza, so it's it's red. It's a type of gentle affectionate sexual intercourse. It comes from the Italian word correza, which means caress, so it's coming from this like this intimacy. Right. But the whole idea is to have sex without orgasming, which kind of goes against the whole purpose of why so many of us have sex. Like the most common questions we get is how do I reach orgasm? What

But the whole thing with edging is because you do that, because you build up towards having an orgasm, right, So like that when you finally do have the orgasm during sex, it's like absolutely mind blowing. But the thing with coreza sex is that it's the whole point of careza sex is to never have an orgasm. So it's not about having passionate sex. It's about having very slow intimate like I don't even know how to describe it. It makes

I had to have a laugh at this, Like the first line that I read was positions are commonly very relaxed, such as lying side by side. I'm like, every single morning in a long term relationship, isn't it not even every morning.

Once a week.

Isn't that really lazy? Just like side by side sex.

Yeah, but usually you still orgasm.

But the reason why some experts recommend that you should all try having careza sex with your partners coetza, oh, corretza, thank you for correcting me, is that it triggers the release of oxytocin. There is more of that bonding hormone, which improves intimacy, It improves closeness and also can improve communication between couples. And then also on top of that, taking the pressure off wanting to achieve an orgasm and that being the end goal can also bring about a level of closeness as well.

Looks sex can be amazing without an orgasm. We know that it can still feel good, you can still have fun, you can still enjoy it. But for me, I still want to have that end goal, Like I don't want to put all that time and energy to not get that like firework at the end. I'm all about and I understand this. I'm all about that closeness and trying to bond and trying to have that sensuality and that magnetism and the connection. Like I think that's great, but

Why can't you have both?

And then why can't we do that for an hour? I mean ten minutes even, why can't we have them? But I had to laugh. So some of the I want to tell you some of the behaviors that you can do to enhance your sexual experience. So some of the things that they suggest you do in this currets are sex number one, smile, especially while making eye contact.

Be in hysterics.

Like I feel like, if you're going to smile at someone like that during sex whilst making intense eye contact with them, you probably have to have a conversation first that you're going to try this.

Because you imagine if someone just sprung.

That out of the blue.

All right.

The other one I really enjoyed was gently cradle and rock your partner head or top.

I've highlighted that sentence because I'm like, it's so ridiculous.

Gently cradle or rock your partner's head or tors.

That's what I do when I'm having a breakdown. I hold and I rock for your life. Like that's not that's I can't do.

That in sex whilst you're having intercourse, lie with one ear over your partner's heart.

No one's a good beat to hear them, to hear their heartbeat, place your hand gently over your partner's genitals with the intention to comfort them.

We are children, like we are talking about sex and laughing. Do you know what I feel like?

If any sex ologists or yogi's what do they called, like sensual tantric yogis were listening to this podcast, I'd be like, those two girls do not have a good sex life. Well, no, I see, I think, like I yes, I do think this is funny.

I'm not gonna lie. I think this is funny, but mainly because I think it's unusual to get there to be cupping genitals, but to not do anything with them, like just to comfort the genitals. Look, I'm happy to cup, I will do whatever, but I need that end goal. Like I would love to have this connection during the process, but I still, for me think it needs an end goal. But I'm open. I am not going to knock anything until I try it. I have anyone to try it with currently, But when I.

Do, I do have something to say though.

If you're a male listener and you struggle to get your partner to orgasm at all, you can now just tell her that you're doing corressa sex and it's it was an intentional thing.

All right, here we go. See as though, Laura, you are the only person right here that can do this. I want you to go and try this with Maddie. Jay. You've got to go and put in, do your due diligence, do your research, cup him for half an hour, cradle him, rock him, and come back and tell me if you feel closer. And I'm not.

I'm not taking a piss, so he is your hum either, like neither of us can come. No, you just cup. So we have to just have very slow sex with the zero. Okay, I'll do it. He won't be happy, but we'll do it. Okay, these are things I want you to do. Don't tell Matt. I want you to have very slow sex. I want you to smile while holding eye contact. I want you to rock his head and cup him his balls. But then that's it.

That's all you can do.

And when we're finished, after not having an orgasm, I'll just lay with my ear on his heart to hear his hart yes.

And then you can't tell him. You can't tell him why you're doing it, and I want you then afterwards be like, do you feel closer to me? This is actually a real test because I want to put it to the test. All right, I'll do it great, throwing you to the wolves.

Guys, I got my vagina ozonized for this podcast. I will definitely do correds to sex.

That's fine, But you haven't actually mentioned your update on your intimacy challenge. You must be tenish days in or so, do you have anything to report yet?

I think we're I think we're like eight days in. Okay, Like fine, everything's I don't want to get to ahead of ourselves. Okay, when we've not been like I said, if you listen to the radio episode, we realize that you don't have to have sex every day. So we've kind of cheated a little bit. But like we're we're still being intimate. Well, this is doing intimate things.

This is why this coupping will come in really hand. It could be the perfect exactly what you need right now. No corretza sounds like a lot of effort for very little reward, but I will try it just for you. Anyway, Let's get into our favorite part of every episode, and that is accidentally unfiltered. I'm going first. I have a very funny, quick short one that I want to read to you to all all right, hit me. I was just at the hairdressers and she asked me to vote

Giuse little quiz that we can just throll in the middle of accidently unfiltereds.

What are your last for like search?

Like if you pull up your search history on your phone, what are the last four things that you have seard disaster?

I have.

O.

Hey, my first one is what are the beij flags in dating? Right?

Yeah?

Right, so obviously I'm really doing chess in the dating world, as if I should have already know what they are?

How do you know if you were an absolute boring fuck on the dating profiles.

I like it.

I've got DNA test. Sure, who's my daddy, Dad? I love you, I know who they are.

I was just must have been researching something.

Oval nude nail pictures, Oval nude nail pictures yep.

So like I was trying to find nails to get for my sister's wedding, which is in a couple of weeks. So like oval shaped nude nail That was a Google search right right, some highbrow research right there. And then I've got most amazing islands to travel to. Obviously, I'm really wanting to get away after the news that Australia is gonna have lear Nina three point zero and rain for eternity.

Okay, well I was Okay, this sounds really bad, but I was actually just doing research for the podcast. So my search history at the moment is truly questionable. And imagine if my phone got stolen and someone saw the stuff that I've been reading here it is, man suffers one hundred erections a day.

Man smashes out of coffin after he was buried.

I've got squirt blankets are here to save you from dot dot dot. And science has officially figured out what squirting.

Is I also have sex addicts you didn't know about. Okay.

I was at work on a video call today and we were discussing a polling tool called a slidto. I was sharing my screen and giving a detailed demo to everyone on the call when I accidentally closed the tab. I felt a little flustered, but apologized and quickly opened

I reckon, there has been so many brilliant screen shares from people that have accidentally shared their screen. So I love that everyone on a work hall thinks that she's that bored that she's typing dildos on her own course. She's like, Wow, while they're talking money, I'm gonna look at my new deal though.

All right, let's get into the chat with Renee. Lynette Dawson was living in the Northern Beaches of Sydney as a mum of two girls, a sister, a friend and a daughter. Lynnette has now been missing for forty years and there was nobody, no witnesses and no admissions.

For decades.

Despite two coronial inquests, no charges were laid for her disappearance until now. A lot of our listeners would now be familiar with the story of Lynette Dawson. After the Teacher's Pet podcast by The Australian investigated the mysterious circums chances of her disappearance. The podcast was downloaded more than

You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

I mean, for forty years, this has been a missing person's case, and for forty years, not a lot has happened until this podcast came about. How do you feel about that?

Yeah, I think when you sign on to do a podcast like this, you never quite know where it's going to end up. Like, we never could have envisaged that this is where this whole story would I guess run its course run full term. So yeah, to think that fifty two million people or there's been fifty two million downloads of Lynn's stories.

For anyone who hasn't listened to the podcast, like you listen to the first few episodes, and you feel so enraged that someone could think that this woman had just walked away from her family and disappeared. And I'm sure that that is exactly how you and your family have

Yeah, I'm Lynette's niece. My dad is Greg Sims, so he was Lynette's little brother and he's married to Marilyn. So if you've ever seen any footage, particularly recently to do with anything with this case, you would have seen gregor Marilyn, and they are my mom and dad. Unfortunately, I am not forty, so this happened before I was born, so I never had the chance to get to meet her.

Even though you haven't had the chance to meet Lynette, can you give us and explain to us kind of the impact that this has had on your family and how you have observed that throughout your lifetime.

It's taken a toll on a lot of people in terms of they have fought for a really long time to try and find out what happened to Lynn, and often we just weren't getting anywhere with that. So it's incredibly frustrating process to go through.

So what was it about it? And how have you found yourself now in this position as the person that is out there finding and advocating and trying to change the laws. How did you find yourself here? What was it about seeing your family go through what they went through that you just thought, I'm just going to dedicate so much of my time and energy to changing this.

This is not really a position that I find comfortable at all. I'm a massive introvert, so I would just prefer to lock myself in a room and not talk to anyone, and that would be perfectly fine with me. But you know, you bite the bullet and you stand up for things that are important, and I know that, particularly when the podcast started coming out, my mum and dad were inundated with a lot of media requests and they weren't always able to do them. I put my hand up and said that I would be happy to

It was going to be.

So any chance we got to talk about the podcast and get the word out there, we were willing to do it. So that's sort of how I ended up starting to do a lot of this stuff, and it's just kept coming.

What is your understanding? What has your family told you about Lynn and who she was and what she was like as a person, what her life was like before she went missing.

So they tell me that she was really fun loving, she was always all about her family, She was always one to stand up for herself, and for what she thought was right, and she was never one to walk past a joke.

So it's quite nice.

Knowing her siblings, you can sort of see that in a lot of them as well, so you do get a bit of an understanding about what she would have been like if I'd have had the chance to meet her.

And also even though you didn't have the opportunity of meeting her, and her being a part of your life throughout your life, and I'm sure that she has come up in discussions and I'm sure even before the Australian came up as an idea of doing this podcast, the teacher's pat what did your dad speak to you about in terms of what he had thought had happened to Lynn.

It's kind of a fine line, like you want to talk to your kids about this person that's been in your life and what they were like and everything about them, But then how do you have discussions like at what age do you start having discussions with your kids about domestic violence or potential murder? Like it's a really fine line to tread, And I honestly can't tell you how

Did your family the whole time, it's been forty years, which is a very long time, What was the relationship like with your family increase this whole time? Was there ever a time where it was sort of normal and they believe his manipulation and his lies and genuinely believed maybe she had left on her own cord? Or did they always suspect that just something didn't seem right.

You don't ever want to suspect that someone who's a treasured member of your family, which Chris was at the time, You don't want to ever suspect that they've done anything bad. And if they're telling you that this person is calling and they're sending messages and they're completely fine, you kind of want to believe that because believing the alternative means that you're never going to see that person again.

So it's kind of a tricky one.

Absolutely, because you know, how do you reconcile that she's either decided not to ever talk to you again or she's not alive anymore, so you know which one is it. But he would tell awful lives, like he would say to my Nan, Oh, don't worry, I've spoken to her. She's going to call you on Wednesday, And then my Nan would sit by the phone all day Wednesday waiting for her to call, and that call was never going to come. Like that is such a cruel thing to

So she would.

Happily miss birthdays and all sorts of family celebrations. But according to my Nan, she would not have missed the funeral. So that was the moment for her.

Does your side of the family have anything to do with Lynn's daughters.

We do.

We did have a relationship with both of them as they were growing up. They moved to Queensland when they were quite young, and so they would come down in school holidays to see my grandparents and we would come down and visit them.

We're still very much.

In contact with the elder of the two daughters, but the younger one made it very clear at my NaN's funeral, she was probably in her early twenties by then. She made it very clear that she was coming to say goodbye to my Nan and that was it. She wasn't going to have any contact with the rest of us, and she stood by that up until this day. Like, we're very old open to reopening a relationship with her, but she has to be the one to reach out if she would like that.

Why do you think that is Do you think that it's just all too overwhelming or do you think there's still a level of I guess like protection of Chris, like of her father, or just a confusion. Has she given you any indication.

She hasn't, But her older sister has sort of told us some of the things that they've been told as they were growing up, and it's my understanding that she's been told some pretty awful things about us and about her mother, and that we're all.

In a witch hunt for Chris.

Basically, it's just devastating because if you grow up and that's your entire world, that's your truth, that's your reality, that's the identity that you have been told since you were such a little child, that you can't remember anything different.

To be honest to it's quite unbelievable because obviously, for thirty six years, by the time the podcast started coming out, we had been campaigning and pushing and trying to get this to trial, and it had been before the DPP multiple times before that point, and they decided not to push your head with the prosecution. So we were doing what we could to try and get it heard, but nothing was happening. So when Headley came along and started to do like told us that he wanted to do

Don't worry my Dad still doesn't know what it is either.

Half the population still don't. So if that makes him feel any bad, I think it's a generational thing, so don't worry.

Possibly, possibly it's all right. I fixed him up.

Yeah, So we can't be more grateful for the podcast because I think without it we definitely wouldn't be here, or we wouldn't have a guilty verdict. Who wouldn't have gone to trial, he wouldn't have been arrested. I believe knowing that that's happened is amazing. In the last two and a half years since the podcast came out, I guess we've just been watching it go through the courts, and I know that Chris has been doing everything possible to try and get it stopped.

So he went to all the courts, all the.

Levels of law don't know courts in Australia to try and get this stopped because he for various reasons, but one of them was because he didn't believe he could get a fair trial because of the publicity from the podcast.

What were some of the other reasons that he had put forward to try and stop it going to trial.

So there was the publicity, and I think he also said that because it had taken forty years to get to this point, that he couldn't get a fair trial because a lot of the evidence that could have been gotten from forty years ago, phone.

Records, that sort of stuff.

People's memories weren't now as reliable forty years on as they would have been back then.

So when the podcast came to fruition, what was that like for your family and how involved were you? Was every single thing run by you? Was everything? Okay? Did you get to okavery episode and get to put your edits in saying well, I don't think that's actually correct or I'd like to swap this.

Did you guys have a very active say?

No, not at all, not at all the surprising.

Yeah, So I think Mom and Dud started the process with Headley in November twenty seventeen, and the episode had started coming out in May twenty eighteen. They trusted Headley implicitly, but he was doing the episodes week by week. It wasn't like he sat down and he did the whole series in one He was going week by week. So every week when an episode will come out, we wouldn't know.

What was in it. We wouldn't know who'd interviewed.

We were learning things along with everyone else that was listening to the podcast, So it was definitely quite an experience.

And I think, I mean, even the person who I'm guessing may have been the most affected by this. Did your grandma get to listen through all of this? Has she been able to listen back to the podcast?

No?

She unfortunately passed away in two thousand and one, so she's not here to see any of this.

I'm so sorry.

Yeah, that's okay.

She would, I think, be quite blown away by this whole thing, because she's just a quite humble, trusting lady.

But also just having closure. That's the thing you live with for so long, is not knowing what happened to your daughter. Yeah, not knowing if they walked away, and not knowing if they know how or why. And I guess it's so sad that she didn't receive that in her life time.

It is very sad.

Yeah, you've just been in court and you've been sitting right behind Chris. You've been very, very involved, and I mean, I can't imagine what that was like to be so close to somebody that took someone literally from your family. But what was that like the last I don't know, five, ten, fifteen years. Have you ever had any contact with him or when did it cut off for your family as well?

It was Chris's decision to do that, and it happened not long after Linn disappeared. It still sounds strange for me to say that she was murdered. I know that's now obviously the reality of the situation, but it's still strange for you to say that.

Yeah.

So he cut off contact really not long after that, and when he moved to Queensland that was absolutely it. My name was devastated because it meant that she didn't have the relationship that she wanted with her grandkids either.

So what was it like sitting behind him in court when you finally finally got to this point it was finally go time.

Yeah.

So the first day I saw him was one of the first days of the trial, so nervous because I didn't know if he'd know me, or what his reaction would be to some of the family being.

In the court. So I was quite nervous, but.

Seeing him, He's an old man and he just didn't seem to really know what was going on, so it was quite unthreatening, I suppose, And I guess given that I'd been in the same room with him for you know, when you're in the same room with someone for ten weeks, I guess you kind of get used to their presence, regardless of the fact that he is now a convicted murderer.

You know what the most frustrating thing, and I'm sure your family has experienced this, is the fact that he got to live out his life and I know that there's justice and there's so much closure that comes with the fact that there is a guilty verdict, but that he got to live out so much of his life without any repercussions out there in Queensland, you know, building a new life.

Was there Renee a key piece of evidence that was provided that you feel was really the piece of evidence that got this verdict over the line? Was there something that was so definitive it couldn't be excused or do you think it really was just a culmination of a bit of everything.

I think it was a bit of everything.

There were obviously quite a few bits of information that were quite damning, like the fact that he was leaving love notes in schoolgirls' bags and a lot of stuff around the babysitter. I don't think we're supposed to name her or probably talk about her too much based on an upcoming trial that's about to happen. But yeah, there was just a lot of circumstantial evidence. And the judge said himself, if they'd have taken each of those pieces

Can you explain to us now, now that Chris Dawson has received a guilty sentence, has there actually been any sentencing that's followed yet, Like, do you know what his punishment will be for the crime?

We don't know yet.

We have a sentencing hearing set for the tenth of November, and in that sentencing hearing he will be giving victim impact statements and that will help the judge decide what his sentence will actually end up being. As far as we know, within a couple of days of that sentencing hearing, his actual sentencing will be given.

And right now, your family petitioning for changes in the law in New South Wales that you're calling Linn's law. What is Linn's Law about? Tell us about that, because I feel like this is something everyone needs to get on board with and really make happen.

Yeah, so Linn's Law, it's calling for a nobody no parole law to be introduced in New South Wales. So something that we weren't necessarily aware of is that this is not law in Australia.

So we were just doing.

Our best to get through this trial not really expecting either outcome. But once we've got a guilty verdict, literally the night of the guilty verdict, we were made aware that well, nobody no parole laws are a precedent in the majority of the states and territories in Australia, New South Wales.

Isn't one of them. So this means if someone's.

Convicted of a nobody murder in New South Wales, they can serve a certain period of their sentence and when they're aut for parole, they can be considered for release without ever disclosing where that body might be. So we feel like it's really important that New South Wales comes into line with the rest of the country to make these people so about their full sentences if they're not willing to be forthcoming with where a body is so it might help a victim's family.

So have they asked Chris point blank where the body is and he has refused to say? Or is he still just saying he's innocent or is he saying he doesn't remember? What's his answer to that?

He is still pleading his innocence. I think it's been forty years and he has fully convinced himself that he didn't actually do this.

With a verdict coming back as guilty, how did that make you and your family feel? We took no joy in seeing him taken away because he is an older gentleman. But I also think anyone with an ounce of human decency about them is not going to take any pleasure in seeing someone taken away to jail. I don't think that that's that's not something we took any pleasure in.

I think that there's so many people who listened to the podcast who were that they're that step removed from where you are. Obviously with your family. I think there are a lot of people who saw the news and took joy in the fact that there has been justice for Lynnette, and I know that that's probably a really challenging thing to say because you're so close to it,

No, I don't think.

I mean, it would be great if you would, but I ultimately don't think that will be the case. But I guess if we're able to get this law through parliament, then will at least have a character dangle.

What's the next steps now? Is Chris able to appeal the verdict? Is he able to challenge this another judge? What is the next step?

So as far as we understand, after sentencing is done he is able to appeal, the process could take multiple years. I also believe that given it was a judge alone trial, it will be a lot harder to appeal because the judge did a very nice job at pairing the case back to its simplest form and convicting on something that's quite hard to I guess appeal against which we.

Knew he would do.

We knew that whatever his reasonings were, they would be as water tight as possible, because I guess no one wants to be told we don't agree with your judgment. So he's done his best possible job to try and seal that up as tightly as possible.

So what is next and what can we do? How can everyone get behind Lynn's Law and making this happen?

Okay, So we have set up a petition on change dot org and it's just to petition the new South Wales Premier Dominique Perite and the new South Wales Attorney General Mark Speakman to try and get this law through parliament. So we're trying to get as many signatures possible and if anyone wants to sign it, you can go to change dot org and just search for Lin's Law and it should pop up and hopefully we'll be able to put it before Parliament in the next little while.

Well, Renee, we have such an amazing and very active listenership we had the life is here really want to get behind this kind of stuff. So I hope every single person listening right now know that it seems so small to each person to go and sign one petition, but if every single person goes and does it, this is how we get changed. So Laura and I going to do it straight away.

And I think I think for so many people just on that brute, like so many people see petitions and think what can I what can my one signature do? What impact is this going to have? But collectively it can have a huge impact. And for every single person that's ever lost a family member to domestic violence or to any violence and have not had that closure that comes from knowing exactly where they are and the opportunity to lay them to rest, we just think that this

I know there's fifty two million people around the world right now rejoicing at this verdict and completely on your family's side.

Oh, we definitely feel it. We definitely feel it. Yeah.

Well, you know, we never finish an episode without our suck and our sweet, our highlight and our low light of the week. Laura Burn, do you want to kick it off? What is your suck this week?

My suck for the week. Actually, Oh, it's kind of a sweet and it's kind of suck. This last week just passed me. My sister and my mum were filming something for.

Yeah, only fans.

Just we've got this new family ownly fans thing that we started.

You know.

It was weird seeing my family like that. So that's my suck. We were feel I'm being a reality TV show an episode. But it's been up with the Burns, Johnson's, with the Vacanski's. We've got a lot of last names. We've got a lot of last names in our household. No, it was something for my mum and that's all I can tell you about it at the moment because it's pretty top secret. But it's not a reality TV show that you would normally do in terms of it being

Does sound like it's been a pretty tough week.

It dragged up a lot of past family stuff. But the reason why we did it was for my mum because she really needed some help with some stuff that's been going on in her life.

And look, I know it sounds super fuck you were hooking us.

I know it sounds super cryptic, but it's been a very very big, emotional family week and that was last week. But the end of it, and I'm going to say that the sweet is also something I can't tell you too much about. But basically, the end of this episode, this filming and stuff meant that my mum really got her life back on track.

And I'm super proud of her.

And we've had some really full on times as a family, but I think, ALTI, what we experienced last week is going to be incredible for my mum. And I'm so sorry I can't share more about it, but I will as soon as i'm able to, and I'll give you more of the backstory and context around what it is that we've been doing as soon as I'm able to too well.

I cannot wait to see it because I know it has been a big week for you. And if you want to wipe your snot on my sleeve like I have done to you in the past, my sleeve will be here. Just give your hands up, my book, put a jumper.

They are coming.

Ah. Okay, my suck this week. My sister is getting married in four weeks.

That is not the suck.

But I have been a bit late to the party with my bride's maid's dress. I finally got it and it just wasn't right like I got online, had tried. It just wasn't the right color, it wasn't quite the right shape. And you know, Sherry's been on my back a little bit, saying you're leaving this really late. I'm like, don't worry about it. You know me always come through the goods, And now I'm sort of panicking.

That I haven't come through with the goods.

But it's okay. I have ordered another one and it will be here any day now, and I'm fingers cross that's going to be great.

This is gonna be Also, Sherry suck when she listens to this and hears that you haven't, like it's like three weeks away or something.

Well, I wanted to leave it. I didn't know what I'd be feeling or what vibe. Because Sherry's giving me free rein right, She's like she has a few very loose guidelines, but she's pretty much said, just run a by, find some things you like, run and buy me. But she's very open because I'm the only bridesmaid, Like, it's just me. I'm the maid of honor and that's it. So she's like, just wear something you're happy and comfortable

We had a very active twenty four hours.

Actually, mind you, my dad's super into archery, so he's been like training us to be archers, which is absolutely.

Heilloo weirdest thing I've ever heard.

It's the Hockley family with nothing straightforward.

Where do you go to do archery? Where does one go and archer.

Well, you can go and do it anywhere, but we have it all at home. We have a whole setup.

You sit in your backyard and you with bows and arrow That's what you're doing on a Hockley family reunion. You have a couple of tins of canned beer and then go on do some marcherie.

I know you think I'm joking. That is exactly what we do.

Where do you go like you're from Paul McQuary, You're not like Kickfield?

What do I need to take you guys on girls trip? We'll go to Paul McQuary on intradution to the family and you can become one of us for the weekend. What a time to be alive. Who man is it from? Usk? Guys, Please keep all your questions coming in for Ask Uncut any embarrassing.

Stories and jump onto the website. It's Life Uncut podcast dot com dot au. You can get yourself some tickets for the Sydney Live Show. I know we've been saying it every week, but there's truly only a few tickets left. And then you can also jump on there and get a merch if you haven't gotten yourself a jumper, yet those are also available on the website.

And you know the drill. Tell your Mum to your dad, tell you Doug to your friends and shit, And I love because

The Kamata were bamed kaabaa