Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.
This episode is recorded on Gaddigal Land of the Aurora Nation. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura and I'm Brittany, And do you know what I've been dealing with all day?
Flatulence?
No?
Is this a trick question?
Do you notice something that you never you just never wear it on the day today?
A stick on bra? You do have your hand down.
Look why do you have that? Because you've got like a little razorbackshirt on.
I've got it. Yeah, I decided to wear a stick on bra.
But like you know, these things are like pretty much a one use only situation.
Has been used. I saw it on Lola's face the other day.
I've been running this stick on bra for like three oh god, maybe three months now. I'll even work to the wedding. Got super sweaty and it has not been stuck to my breast all day. It's been hanging about three centimeters below my breath. Every time I've been down, one just goes and.
Those stick on bras was still a think like to people, still, where do you even get that?
From? David Jones? So it's the thing. I have so many of them, like why are you holding in your hands showing.
Like and look even Lawla's like unpeeled some of the sticky from the inside of it.
This looks like it's five years old. Could be. It's disgusting. Should I Now?
I'm gonna sit here and do the rest of the record with my nipples.
The nipples are big right now.
Oh thank you. I'm getting my stick on bra back on lucking me anyway, we have a great episode planned for you, guys. You have a bit of a story that you, for some reason won't share with me until we turn the MIC's on, So better be bloody good.
I had to just have a.
Line just this morning this happened. I don't know if you guys have noticed. You haven't said anything, so I don't think you've noticed that my hair has been looking a little bit different, like it's quite lush.
No, but you always have extension, No, it's quite shiny though.
No, No, okay.
Well, I feel like your hair goes through so many different variations of who it wants to be that when we have a change, it's kind of like when you go through a bad breakup. Most people cut a fringe. Yeah, just every two weeks change the hair like blonde, short, long stension.
No.
I have noticed myself this week, right, I thought my hair was looking really shiny.
But I have been taking some hair tablets, so I was.
Like healthy, shiny, yeah for hair, And.
It's been smelling really good. But I don't know why it's been smelling because you know, in my hair, I haven't been doing anything different. I realized that I've been using a different shampoo and conditioner. I'm one of those people. You know, you don't throw anything it gets almost empty, right, Shampoo conditioning ge is almost empty, so you don't throw it out. You just get a new one, and then you just accumulate like fifteen bottles in the bottom of your shower.
Also lightly moldy. If you've all seen the inside of your shower britting hot, what.
Was inside of yours?
So yes, I said, there's like twenty bottles of different shit in my shower, and I realized this morning I've been using the shampoo conditioner, and I was like, it just smells so good. Which one have I been using? Because I want to obviously no one replace it. So I pick up the bottle, which is a beautiful ones. The shampoos in this beautiful yellow bottle, the conditioners in a beautiful white bottle, very small niche.
Riting across the front. And I had a look and I said dog shampoo. I knew dog.
I knew exactly where this was going, but I didn't want to take your punch one and you don't.
Been using Delilah's shampoo and conditioner.
It's lemon, myrtle, It's perfect for your coat, It's beautiful.
I feel like my man is really shiny and my coat's very healthy.
But I've been using it for I reckon about eight days before I looked, so, do you think that it's worth reinvesting in a second lot of it and just continue?
No one's going to shame you for using dog shampoo. First on, I'm going to blame my cleaner. I think my cleaner put it in the shower. I think they also didn't know so because I have it in the bath in my second bathroom because that's where I often will wash delight.
So how empty were these bottles that you decided? Were they full bottles?
No, they're full ones, Okay.
Right, because I was gonna say, surely unless you're not the one who ever washed your dog, Like surely you would have been like, oh, these look very similar to the bottles.
Now they were a new one that hadn't bought, that hadn't used on Delilah yet. So I've been using lemon myrtle, but like.
It's very Sydney like you would not know there's no picture of a dog on there, because I know people at home and thinking, do you not remember when I fed my nephew dog treats, not knowing that they were like these organic It was not intentional, but they were like these beautiful organic like farmer market.
They were sent along with human food. There was like a little packet of trial dog treats in there, and they were like doughnut shaped and I just assumed they were cookies and I gave them to my nephew and they were really bougie Eastern Suburbs dog treats.
Yes, And I remember we had a listener. That must have been a year or two ago.
But they wrote in they lived in Japan and they couldn't read They couldnt speak the langage yet, and they couldn't read what they were buying. So they were buying like dog and cat treats because it was like real bougie packaging. And they didn't know until one of their local friends came over and literally saw them eating the thing, and they're like, what are you doing?
She had no idea.
She's like, I thought these were delicious snacks. She was like putting them out for her friends in everything.
Do you know what?
I think it goes to show more so than us just being revolting and not able to read the packaging. Maybe the standard is now too high for our pets.
I feel like you're speaking to me when you say that Delilah does eat air fried salmon like human grade salmon.
But apart from that, she like meatballs in there as well.
Now she needing really well, I did give her okay, I learned one I had made a grave error.
I gave her tie. You're going to kill her and you cannot give a dog's tie.
Well, I a dog's tie.
You can't get dogs, spices, garlic. It's a terrible it went straight through off.
I think that's what happened. You know how I had to throw my rug out because she shat on it. I think that was from the tie. What kind of tie were you giving the dog? It was just the chicken out of the tie, right. I would never give her the onion and stuff. I know she can't have. What I gave her was what I thought she could eat. I'm not irresponsible, but I think I gave it to with some rice as well. I think the sauces must have just been coating the chicken still too much?
Oh yeah, oh that's afused. Oh explosive diarrhea, Ti fice spice.
That's when I usually hand her over to Quisha and I'm like, Keisha, I need some dogs in.
Sorry.
Well, I don't know if you're going to start a trend with this one, brit I don't know if people are going to start taking on using dog shampoo. It is, despite how luminous and luxurious your hair.
Lo No, it's beautiful and it's all natural and orgunny because it's good for the dogs. So it's good for the dogs, good for me.
I think, all right, well, something else that's probably better for humans is our sponsor on today's episode, and that is doctor Lewin's Marine Collagen Peptide and Inner Beauty range. Now, if you are wanting to incorporate more collagen into your life for healthier skin and healthier hair, than marine collagen peptide inner beauty liquid shots could be for you.
Yeah.
Now, this is really great if you're the kind of person that doesn't like tablets or powders, which I'm not a huge fan.
Of tablets, but I will do it.
This is the answer because it is This is like a little concentrated shot. You don't have to go on pile up the tablets, so it's absolutely perfect.
Do you know what I do? I mix my tablets in with honey. I used to do that too, but I was like a child.
Yeah okay, I'll still do it like a grown five year old. Before we get into what today's episode is about, we are talking to well, actually I'm not speaking to logan Ury today. Brittany and Keisha did an interview recently with relationship expert logan Uri.
She's from him, she's their coach. She's amazing.
We've had her on the podcast before, but we did this. There was only one time that Logan was available. It was about a week or two ago, but it was when Laura got married.
The reason why having Kish fill in on this interview there was so perfect timing is because this conversation is all around fuck boys. Sorry, Keisha, not that you're only attracted to five boys, but like why are we attracted to fuck boys? And that Keisha and Brittany and the
other part of this is around the sunk cost fallacy. Now, something that we've touched on on this podcast before is this idea that if you're in a relationship it's safe, you kind of know what you know and you know what you're getting, that it's easier and better to stay in it than it is to risk that relationship for something better when you're not happy. It's like people who stay in relationships long past they're used by date just because the fear of starting again is so great.
And Logan, she's an author, she's a behavioral scientist, she does work for Hinge as a dating coach. She knows her stuff, so she's the most perfect person to talk to about this.
But anyway, something I want to speak about before we get into the interview with Logan Uri is something that I'm sure so many of you have seen in the news and across social media in the last couple of days, and that is a Lenciaga and their wildly controversial campaigns that have come to light in the last.
Week, or as I like to think of it, they're what the actual fuck campaign? What the actual fuck? What the actual fuck will Balenciaga thinking now?
So for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, basically this all started last week. There was a campaign that was launched and it was a Teddybear BDSM style Teddybear that was modeled by a child, a little girl standing in different areas within a room that was kind of like a lound room, and surrounding her were empty wine glasses and also other objects that could pertain to being sex toys.
Now, it has.
Been very widely criticized, and there's also been a secondary campaign that's come to light.
Now.
This has come to light in the last week as well. And this is a picture of the co lab that was done between Valenciaga and Addedas And it's a flat late image of a handbag and court documents like paperwork. It's obviously taken in what's meant to be like a lawyer's office on the desk.
Yah, it looks very busy, like very important, this really nice designer handbag with someone that's you know, got.
A lot to do.
And one of the pieces of paperwork that's brought out on the desk is actually a court document from the two thousand and eight Supreme Court ruling on child pornography. Now, when you layer these things together, when you look at the images around the BDSM Teddy Bear that features this little child, and then you look at this separate campaign that has court ruling documents around child pornography, it really is hard to kind of argue the case that this isn't trying to sexualize children.
Well, it's not.
Even one child, Laura, it's there's a few different girls in this campaign.
Shoot.
It's not even just one. Like they've gone out of their way. They've got multiple little models and they put them in multiple different compromising positions. It's discussing and it's hard to look at For me. This doesn't take an eagle eyed sleuth to discover this, to unpack it. You look at the photo, there's only one real piece of information you can read in the photo, like all these pages that are scattered everywhere, and there's this one piece
of information. They're not dumb. They're one of the biggest brands in the world. They know someone's going to say, wonder what that is.
That's what people do. For some reason, unbeknownst to me or anyone in the world.
We cannot figure it out. They have wanted to hone in on this. I don't even know what to call it. I don't know whether to call it a topic. But they've decided to go down this track of involving children, and I can't work out why. It's almost like we had a discussion about this, you and I, Laura, not that long ago, in regards to this new Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix show that book The World by Storm, We had a discussion about.
Is it too far? Is it too much?
Because they are hollywoodizing the idea of true crime and it's gone to the next level.
It's so real, it's so it made it look so glamorous. It was so over the top, and.
I think they're doing the same now with this campaign with blens Yaga. It's almost like they need to keep pushing the extremes to be spoken about. And I just think this one has gone too far, Like where do we draw the line if for a fashion brand, the only thing that they can think of is I have a brilliant idea.
Let's get a three year old or multiple three year.
Olds and put bondage bears and court documents relating to like child yeah, child exploitation. Who in their right mind approved that? And this is the thing, right, there's a lot of blame shifting brands that are this big. There's not one person that sits back and says, I have an idea, I'll call a photographer, let's pressico. This goes through so many people for approval.
Yeah, And I think the thing that's really important about this is not only I guess like it's one thing for a brand to claim ignorance. And when you say blame shifting, brit there's been a lot that's happened in the last couple of days where Balenciaga as a brand is suing the creative directing agency. So there's an agency called North six and they're the ones that were responsible with coming up with the creative direction of this campaign.
Balenciaga has opened a twenty five million dollar core case against them to try and sue for damages. But as a brand, when your brand has been built on pushing the social norms, Balenciaga's brand has been built on controversy in the last couple of years, and the amount of pr that they get from creating incredibly controversial content, this to me is not It's not an accidental Oh, we
didn't know that this was going to be included. Maybe Balenciaga wasn't aware that that specific piece of paper, that specific court document was going to be included. But the issue is is that this conversation hasn't come up because there was one image that pertained to child sexual assault. The reason why this has become so huge is because when you put BDSM bear together and you put together the flat lay image, it was their overall intention to
be shocking. And the question is is, obviously, has this gone too far? I think in the court of public opinion, the answer is absolutely yes.
Okay, this is what frustrates me and where I want to call bullshit is that I do there's like a lot of blame shifting, But this is what Balanciaga came out with their statement and said, we take this matter very seriously and are taking legal action against the parties responsible for creating the set and including unapproved items for our Spring twenty three campaign photoshoot. We strongly condemn abuse of children in any form. We stand for children safety
and wellbeing. Now, the thing that I'm calling bullshit on is that's all well and good, right. What they're saying is there were unapproved items that we you know, so we didn't sign off on it.
Someone's taken creative control and done it. That's fine.
There is no way Balanciaga releases that campaign without then reviewing the images and saying, yes, it doesn't happen. It will never in a million years happened. So even if someone has gone, I've got this brilliant idea. All this shit wasn't supposed to be in there, let's put it in there, it still goes back to Blooneiaga. They still tick it off and say brilliant, that's what we wanted to Thank you, here's your money, let's go live.
Well. Absolutely, and I think also on top of that, for all of these high fashion designer creative concept campaigns, there are so many cooks, there are so many eyes on this creative because nothing walks out of the door of a high end fashion brand that hasn't been scrutinized over. There's so many millions of dollars that go into creating these ad campaigns, so I think to try and shift the blame is a way of trying to save face.
I also thought it was very interesting not only is Balenciaga trying to shift blame and say that you know that they weren't aware that there was items that they didn't have full insight or overview over that were included in their campaigns. The thing is they're only trying to sue North six for that one image, for that one
document that was included. Nothing has been said about the BDSM bear and the inclusion of children, because obviously they were completely across that campaign, so that has not a leg to stand on for them to be able to
sue in that. Now, this comes back to what we just spoke about in terms of high end fashion brands really pushing controversial concepts as part of their ad campaigns as a way of generating pr I guess the thing that I think is really interesting is that fashion has a long history of sexualizing children, not in such obvious ways, but in terms of like using very prepubescent young girls
to model what should be for an adult. Now, obviously this is well and truly gone far past that because it is a toddler modeling something that has been created for an adult. But it's blurring the line between what is for a child and what is something that we see as being very sexualized.
They did do a homeless Range, and I'm using that inverted commas Blenciaga in conjunction with Kanye West, that was inspired by, for want of better word, homelessness, which is absolutely wild and so out of touch. You think of the people that are collaborating and making Range. A billionaire's like a billionaire company, a billionaire individual that have come together and.
Said, what I feel like is, let's take the piss a little bit here.
Well, I don't think it's taking the piss. I think the reason is dusting. Yeah, but the reason is to make people angry, and by making people angry, it generates this huge pr machine.
I don't think it's to make yeah, mayb people angry, not about the issue at heart, though, just to spark conversation, like look at this shoe, Laura, I don't know if you've ever seen.
Their homeless range. That shoe is made to just look like somebody had and how much do they sell it? For? Thousands of dollars? Yeah, it's crazy.
It's made to look like somebody has not been able to afford shoes for ten years, and I have worn the same pair of shoes everywhere they've gone.
You know, I think we'll put the picture of these shoes up on our social media. We're not going to put up the picture of the child with the teddy. If you guys want to look at it, you can go and google it yourselves, because I don't want to be responsible for further disseminating that sort of images. But I think like the big part of this as well is is that it's core to Balenciaga's actual strategy around growing their brands. So in twenty fifteen they on a
new director called Demna Versalia. Now Demna Versalia has been responsible for them taking a far more controversial slant in how they create their content. And interestingly, since Demna has come on board, the sales for Balenciaga has quadrupled. Like the concept of making shocking fashion has definitely been beneficial up until this point. A quote I found really interesting that came in September twenty twenty two from Vogue. Now,
Demnah said fashion should not please. The most important quality is the lack of fear, because fear blocks creativity, and if you're trying to please, then you're never going to make it. You should instead not please. Now, I think we can all agree that Demna has well and truly achieved the objective of creating a campaign that was to displease enough people. The amount of pr that this has generated for all the wrong reasons is truly unbelievable.
I think we can all agree that Demnah is a dickhead. Demna our mate, Demna is done.
I don't know, like, when do cancel culture come into this. Do we think that Balenciaga will bounce back?
Because there are a lot of tweets going arounds from high profile people saying Blenciaga's canceled.
In my eyes, you know they're on that train.
But then the world was waiting with baited breath for Kim Kardashian to release a statement because Kim's brand is very much aligned with Blenciaga. Kim and Kanye were always huge Balenciaga fans, ambassadors. They had very tight ties to the brand.
Which also just means that she makes a fuckload of money from the brand.
But she has been quiet up until literally today, which is Monday, so that's quite a few days. And everyone has been sort of saying where you at, like on her comments, whyn't you commenting? And she came out and said this. I have been quiet for the past few days, not because I haven't been shocked and outraged by the recent Balenciaga campaigns, but because I wanted an opportunity to speak to their team to understand for myself how this could have happened. As a mother of four, I have
been shaken by those disturbing images. The safety of children must be held with the highest regard, and anything against it should have no place in our society period. I appreciate Balenciaga's removal of the campaign and apology. In speaking with them, I believe they understand the seriousness of the issue and will take the necessary measures for this to never happen again. Now, to me, this reads I'm a mother.
I am not happy with this, but they pay me too much, so I'm not going to be stepping away from the brand. This is how I took it, which I think is pretty obvious to say. You know, they said they're sorry and they won't happen again.
And we said it before.
The brand, in our eyes, as a consumer, as someone that's sitting back taking a back seat, watching the brand, is to blame. I can't see how there is a way around that. I know there's pointing fingers, but lord, you I mean on a much smaller scale, but you do shoots.
You're a brand, you do much much smaller Yeah, but you. But I guess the idea is, you know how they work.
Is it at all possible that this has somehow slipped through a company's fingers of this level?
I reckon Ultimately, in this every single player, every single person who was in those photo shoots played a commonsing
part in what the outcome was. But the buck stops with Balenciaga because there and as we said, their entire brand recently has been based on trying to be controversial, in towing that line where fashion meets social issues, where it really questions, but not only questions, it really pushes the boundaries on what isn't isn't acceptable within society, and I think Balenciaga very much in this instance, has taken it so far that it's going to be at the
detriment of the brand being canceled. Because there's a difference when you talk about adult concepts and you use children, who we are so fiercely protective of because they are the most vulnerable people of our society. It's just not something that is open for interpretation.
The very last thing I want to add is that I do find interesting, but they they're covering it very well. Is Balenciaga have wiped their entire Instagram. But they have done that before.
They've done it since twenty twenty one, but usually from what we can see, they do it before.
A campaign is coming out. You know a lot of people do that for hype.
They have done it now, but it looks like they've done and after the fact they saying this is something we always do, which is very convenient around probably the biggest controversy they've ever had.
But I just find that an interesting move.
What do you think do you think this is going to be the end of Blenciaga.
No, I don't, It'll be possibly, but I think they will do some amazing pr it'll be something really positive. They'll do a very safe campaign. It'll be swept under the rug, they'll make a huge apology, they'll point the finger, and Blenciaga will be back on track.
In a month. I think it's just a little tiny speed bump.
And I honestly think that this will in the future, not now, obviously, because this is terribly negative pr that they're receiving, but I actually think, and especially from what we've already seen in terms of them quadrupling their sales figures, I think controversy for brands that seem untouchable, that have people like Kim Kardashian at the helm, this will in
the future result in them actually increasing their sales. Not because people want to lean into the exploitation of children, but there are people who like the exclusivity that comes with it being so controversial.
Well, let's get into our favorite heart accidentally unfiltered. All right, you can kick.
It off beer, because I have one that's just real fucking gross.
Oh there's always one, isn't it. Okay?
So this literally just happened to me and rip I met work with my boss and I've just gone to google something on my phone I've opened up Safari, and as my boss is looking over my shoulder at my phone with me very professional, the screen that pulls up is juliet Allen's sex toy shop. Last night, I was making the most of her twenty self back Friday sailed, so my page was full of beautiful crystal dildos and all sorts of toys. I panicked, I thought, this is
me done. My boss went really quiet, then she said, well, those are pretty.
They are very pretty dildos. They crystal dildos. What do you do with a crystal dildo? Do you leave it out.
Under the moonlight to cleanse? It's alla?
Well, then she goes, I blame you, guys, because Juliette was a guest on one of your earlier shows, and that's how I got into her crystal dildos. So we'll take responsibility. If you want to send your boss our way, that is absolutely fine. But I think she probably went home and ordered her own by the sounds of it.
Do you know what I think?
I want a crystal dildo, just like I mean, what do you do with it?
Though?
When you're not do you hide that under your bed? Or is it so pretty that you put it out on display.
Doesn't put like a good juju in your vaginant, like but for your vagina.
Yeah, Like do you think it's like it's better for you than plastic whatever.
Yeah, we highly recommend the rose Quarts one for anyone who has a latex allergy.
Oh my god, it's so funny.
So my cleaner, I've only just recently gotten a cleaner, so I'm still not thinking about it. I'm just a grot, right, Like I forget that they're coming because it's new, and I've got my vizil line out, like you know, like I haven't even put it away. I just take it out of the morning put on my side table because no one's over here. All these little things like that. But then I forgot. I came home and my house
was immaculate. But then because I had a box of sex toys under the bed, they were all neatly put together and off and.
I was like, no, they didn't go under your bed and put the sex toys.
Cleaned under the entire bed, And I'm like, that's not no. He's very thorough clean.
That is like out of bounds through cleanup. Things that are under the bed are there because the cleaner is not allowed to touch two.
If there, it's probably great. It's probably full of dust. I mean even the doner's probably full of dust.
I haven't used it in a while, but he's just there dusting the kye jelly and all of it.
We like cleaning them up.
No, but he had put them all in a nice little box in the corner, which was great.
Okay, well, look, this accidentally unfiltered is actually one that I I worries me because I feel like a few people are going to relate to it. I'm get to paraphrase it. That's why we love these. They were like, well, I feel like a lot of people have done this. I actually wouldn't mind knowing how many people have done this.
They hit me.
Okay, hey, girls, So the other week I had my period, which you know, yes that's relatable. No big, no big exciting story there. Anyway, I was on day six of my period and I thought, ah, you know, it'd been leaving it a little bit long, and thought it was time to change my tampon.
As you do.
I go to the bathroom and I thought it just doesn't quite smell right. Maybe maybe I bacterial that genosis we've all been there. So I pull out a tampon only to find that there was a second tampon sitting inside.
Oh, I don't know.
If this is relatable, and I absolutely have no idea how long it has been there for well, you.
Could probably tell by the level of cell if it was like a skung.
I think this is relatable. I think there are so many people who have accidentally done this. And I mentioned it and produced a key should put a hand up.
I think that there are people out there that have done this. Yes, the double tampon, but I don't think it's common. I don't think it's a common occurring. What if you're really tired and you're like you get up in the middle.
I think you're taking it out and then you or you're a bit drunk, Like, what if you're drunk changing a tampon.
I have never but I am now and I know you're against Laura, but you haven't given it a crack. I am so pro this Diva moon cup, like this puir cup.
They are just so good.
If anyone out there, I know you guys are out there, if you've used them, you're like preaching to me right now. They're like, yes, it's amazing. It's super hard to convert someone.
I try.
Okay, So I went to the Chemist and I bought a version of the Diva. It was like an orange one. It kind of looks like a ball us ball. And I woke up in the middle of the night with pain. I felt like I had a tumor.
It's not right. I was dying.
I was like, what is this.
It's so big.
It was like putting a tennis ball inside my vagina.
So, Mike, you got you would have got like the really post pregnancy one.
No, I just got the one for women who have had two children, and I was like, it's not that wide.
Hey, well, don't brag that you're tighter than others. So my sister Sherry was trying to get me to use the moon cup. She'd been using it and my close friends had been using it for years before I use it.
Now I've been using it for a year, so they've been using it a long time.
They would try and try and try, and I didn't want to do it because I didn't get it. I thought it was gross, couldn't understand it. I finally said, fine, I'll try it. So I did exactly what you did. And I accidentally got the post pregnancy one because I said to my sister, this is awful. Could barely get it in, can't get it out.
What are you talking about? And she's like, what size did you get?
And so I didn't know there were sizeses. I just thought that one size fits all. I went back and looked and I got like the real post pregnancy one, which that's probably what you got, which is why it feels uncomfortable.
It was literally like putting it.
I was like cutting a tennis ball in half, rolling it up and popping it inside me. I could feel everything.
Well if if, and I want you to try again.
Brittany has her moon cup and she like flings it around. It's like always in her handbag. One day I walked in Delilah had it in her mouth, like that mooncup is just fucking floating around me. She'll put it, She'll pull it out at lunch and just pop it on the table. I have never seen someone flap a mooncup around more.
Delilah did it one of my moon cups. It became one of her favorite toys. That's a whole.
Not only did Delilah eat it it then just became her dog toy, like you'd walk into the house and just have a mooncup on the ground.
Oh, she loved it. I'm not taken from her. Okay, this is going to let's get into the chat with Logan.
Logan Uri is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. She's the author of best selling book How Not to Die Alone, which I probably need to order multiple copies of, and having every single room in my house. She also works as the director of Relationship Science at Hinge. Logan joined the podcast a bit of a year ago now for an episode called How Not to Die Alone. You can go back and have a look at that if you haven't heard Logan, welcome again to Life uncut.
Yay, so happy to be here. Now.
You did do an accidentally unfiltered last year when you did it, and it was bloody brilliant, and you've just now said to us, I don't think I can. The only ones you've got are like really really really bad. So you don't want to redrop another accidentally unfiltered?
Is that right? That's true?
Yeah? I feel like I really gave you my best story last time.
Today, Logan, we would love to talk to you.
I mean, it's very fitting for the episode that I'm feeling in for Laura on because Britt and I are both single, we're both unhinged, and we're both navigating the dating world. And today we want to talk to you all about the sunk cost fallacy, fuck boys and how to get off fuck boy Island.
I have been on fat boy Island, logan, I have been stranded on this island.
We've got passports, we've got citizenship on it, We've got every single type of thing that you could need to.
Stay on ful.
I feel like I was on a boat that sunk and then I had to like swim to save myself in the only place I could swim to was fuck boy Island, and no one's come to save me.
That's so true.
And let's start with what is a fuck boy?
Yeah, it's an interesting one because sometimes people are like, oh, like, I'm just having casual sex with somebody, Like, is that a fuck boy? And I'm like, no, it's not just about what you're doing. It's about the expectations and if they're leading you on. And so I would say a fuck boy is somebody who shows you enough interest to string you along, but then isn't actually willing to show
up and be in a relationship with you. And I do want to say from the beginning, you know, we're saying fuck boy, and it has boy at the end, but it could really be anyone. It's not a certain gender. It's just a great term to kind of describe that person who's leading you on, but it makes it seem like they're interested but doesn't want to be in a relationship with you.
I'm glad you said that because you can definitely have fuck girls too, I reckon at some stage I have done that when you If you said to me, have you ever been a fuck girl? I would have said no, as it like, I'm an amazing person. I'm so nice to everybody, but when you probable not so much. I really care about people's feelings generally speaking, but when you break it down like you just said, and you're like, you know, it's just that person that I sort of keep someone around but they're not ready.
I've definitely done that before.
I was emotionally unavailable for a very long time, but I still liked people's attention, so I was like, I'll just like hang out with you sometimes knowing it wasn't going to go anywhere. So I think that women can definitely do that as well. But why is it You've been talking a little bit recently about this whole idea of a fuck boy. Is this just having a real moment at the moment.
I do this work as a dating coach. I do a lot of research where I'm talking to people about dating, and I just feel like fuck boys are this obstacle that are really getting in people's way because they feel like, oh, a little bit of attention is better than nothing. And if I date this fuck boy, it's not going to prevent me from finding somebody who does want to date me,
or I'm going to change this person. And I'm like, if I could just get rid of all these fuck boys, remove them from the dating ecosystem, like so many more people would find love because when you actually are really single and nobody's coming over and keeping you warm in your bed, that's the motivation you need to go out and find somebody who actually wants to date you. And so I think people think these fuck boys are annoying or frustrating or mostly harmless. But I'm really trying to
say to people, here's why they're a problem. Here's why you're addicted to them, and then here's how to get over them. And I'm also talking to people about if you're a fuck boy, here's why, and here's what to do about it. So, yeah, I've really gone down the deep dive into fuck boys and it's been super interesting.
I want to get into that soon too. What you were just saying about when you sort of hang on to someone for too long or keeps on your life for too long, that it's detrimental to your future dating. We're gonna get into that because that's a real problem someone in this room has that's not me. Before we do that, how can we identify the difference, like in the early stages of a relationship between a fuck boy or fuck girl or someone that just wants to have sex and hang out, because that is okay.
Yeah, it's a great question because you could say, like it's early stages of a relationship, they don't owe me anything, like couldn't this just be somebody that takes a longer time to warm up. So a couple things that I would keep in mind when you're saying, is this a
fuck boy? So one of them is that their actions and the words often don't match, and so fuck boys, you know, can do a lot of that love bombing behavior where they're like your worth, Thea's in February, my birthday's in February, like we have to throw a party together, or my roommates are going to love to meet you, and so they're promising you the world. They're talking about the future, but then their actions don't actually match it, and they often cancel dates or just do not show up.
Another thing that's a red flag for fuck boys is that the relationship feels like it's always happening on their terms. So it's like you ask them to do plans and they'll say, oh, you know, I'm busy, but like maybe later that night, or they send you the you up text at ten pm, and so it's like they'll see you when it's convenient for them. But they're definitely not willing to put in the effort to mold their lives
to incorporate you. And then the last two I would say, are you know they don't want to put a label on it. They're very you know, allergic to labels, allergic to exclusivity, something like that, and they're not introducing you to their friends and family. I think that's a big one.
And it's like, you know, they're happy to see you at night, or they're happy to spend time with you, but they're not really incorporating you into their social life or having you meet the people who are important to them.
What do you think about kash And I was having this discussion we might go to INDP, but what do you think about someone that just takes like twenty four hours to thirty hours to respond to a message when like the messages are just you just generally texting, It shouldn't take that long, and I know a lot of people are busy. Do you just think that that's a like, I don't really give a fuck Avalue.
It's interesting, Like you might be surprised by the number of coaching clients I've had who talk about texting and how they're bad textures and they worry that people are going to think they're not interested. So I've had this with guys who are just like I don't like texting. I think it's boring. I like to put my phone away and concentrate on work, and I really just want
to meet up and talk on the phone. I also have had people that are doctors or nurses where they literally can't have their phone out all day because it's not hygienic. And so sometimes there's just people where like they are dating despite their bad days skills, and they do it with everyone in their life. It's not personal to you. And so for those people, I'm like, tell the person from the beginning, I know I suck at texting, it's not personal. I'm going to do my best. But
when this inevitably happens, don't jump to conclusion. So just want to say that there is that group of people. I think when it becomes a problem is when they do it in a way where you feel like you're waiting for them. So you know, you say like, hey, like do you want to go down on Saturday? And they say yes, and then like Saturday comes and goes and they don't respond to you. And so I'd say there is a group of people who's just pretty bad
at texting, and you shouldn't read into it. But in general, if you're somebody who wants to be with a good communicator, that text back right away, like that's something that you can filter for and either give the person feedback and see if they'll adjust or say this person doesn't meet my minimum threshold for how much of a texting response I need.
And ligan, what about you Know.
Something I think I've experienced, and I think every single person in the history of existence has experienced, is like, let's say you a texting with someone and everything's going great, and like, yeah, life can be busy and sometimes they might take a couple of hours to reply or whatever. But I feel as though there's this real pivotal moment and you can feel it in your gut, but it's not necessarily obvious to the eye. Like I know that
I've had these things where I've gone to Britain. I've been like, I just don't think this guy's into me anymore, Like you know, he's he sent this message and BRIT's like that message is fine, Like what are you talking about?
And I'm like, nobody took like an extra.
Ten hours to respond to what he normally would like there's just these slight changes in behavior that you go, oh, I think something has shifted. I think he's not as into me anymore. Like what's your advice about those types of situations?
It should you always go with your gut? Is it always accurate or do you think it's over thinking of things like lots of people do.
Yeah, those situations are so hard. Like I feel like, even though I'm married, that's definitely something I think about in my social life or my work life. Like, for example, the other day, I pass one of my housemates and she gave me what I thought was a dirty look, and then I started freaking out, like, oh, she's mad at me, and just like went into a super spiral. And I talked to one of our other housemates and he was like, these are all the things that have
happened to her in the last few weeks. Her look had nothing to.
Do with you.
And I was like, I wish that we could all wear a post it note on our head that said this has nothing to do to you, this has to do with me, And like it was just such a helpful reminder because I was really spiraling. And so my overall feeling is just in general, I think we can be very sensitive and we can read into stuff and we have you know, there's this thing called the fundamental attribution error. So it's a thing where let's say I am going to a date and I'm late. I know all the reasons.
I'm late.
I'm late because the bus didn't show up. I'm late because there was traffic. I'm late because my boss ran by my desk at the end of the day and asked me for a favor. Right, So I think I'm late because of these external reasons. But when somebody else is late, I just think, Oh, they're late because they're selfish, they're late because they're a jerk, and we just start assigning these qualities to them, not thinking about the external circumstances.
And so for the question you asked, it's like if you didn't respond for a while, you'd be like, this was the craziest day the podcast broke. I had to rerecord, like you would know the reasons. But for the guy, you're like, it's a sign he's not interested. He got back together with his ex, right, and so you just think about like that his feelings have changed. And so sometimes your intuition is right. But before you jump to conclusions, I would give the person a break and see, like,
does it go back to the way it was? Was there maybe an external factor? And before being too upset about it, I might call out and say, like, hey, it seems like you've been really busy lately, like is there anything going on? And I think giving them a non aggressive question so that they can answer and let you know, like that helps you make sure that you don't lose a good guy who's interested but just doesn't
want to be attacked with a question like that. It's such a good example of how I feel like we want people to be mind readers, and we want people to express themselves like exactly how we want and like, trust me, I do this all the time with my husband.
But I've just learned to like, if I'm more clear from the beginning, even if it feels like a tiny bit embarrassing or I'm like, oh, I wish I didn't have to say this, You're more likely to get what you want if you're more clear, and like, obviously you can do it in like a playful, humorous way. And so the reason why this comes up to me is I was coaching somebody last week and she is like so specific about dates. So she lives in San Francisco.
She's interested in this guy who lives in LA and she's like, okay, so I'm going to be in La on you know, November twenty first, November twenty eighth, December fifth, December seventh, Which of those dates can you hang out? Like really intense, intense energy? And he just wrote back and he was like responded to something she said about like a movie, but didn't respond about the dates. And when she was saying like should I follow up, I'm like,
you were so clear about the dates. If you wanted to see you, he would have followed up with one of those dates or an alternative thing. So it's like you're still putting the ball in his court. He has to make the date, but you're letting him.
Know, do you think?
And I think this is something that everyone, I mean a lot of people dating and single people go through, probably not people in a relationship.
Is dating what we're gonna call a fuck boy?
I feel like we're saying the F words so many times in this episode.
Is dating?
We need to put a sense of warning at the start of this. Is dating a fuck boy better than not dating at all? And what I mean by that is if you know you're seeing one of these people, if you know that he or she we're gonnaways just saying he at the moment because we're referring, but if you know that he is being a bit of a dick. You know, he doesn't really want anything. You know, he's messing around. But you're obviously both allowed to date other people.
Do you think that that is beneficial because you're like, well, you know what, Like, I'm getting sex sometimes I have someone to talk to. Dating is like a muscle, like you know, you go to the gym to train the muscles. Yeah, do you think that that is better? Or do you think that is wasting your time? Because this is something Keisha and I always have discussions about. We get a lot of questions written in do you think it's better
to be like do you know what? Yes, you have two out of ten things you can give me right now, but you're actually taking away five out of ten things that I'm looking Yeah.
I love this question because it's something that I've studied a lot, and I've studied it really with like why you shouldn't keep your X in your orbit, But the same thing is true with the fuck boy. So basically, we have this idea that even if we are still talking to our ex or might get back together with them, it won't inhibit us from meeting someone new right where like those are totally two different things, two different lanes.
But that is not what I found. And basically there's this idea called optionality where you think, if that's still an option, then I'm not going to be as serious about the other options or I'm not really going to commit to the other things. And so it's like people think it's harmless, but it's not. And so with fuck boys, yes, you're getting some attention, and you said, like dating is a muscle, and you're working out that muscle, but I would argue you're working out the muscle wrong and you're
going to get injured. You're actually like doing reps in the wrong way and building the wrong habit, the wrong pattern. And so what I would say is like, sure, you technically could still be going on dates while having sex with your fuck boy, but when you feel lonely, instead of being like that's a motivator, I'm going to put more effort in, you just go back to them. And so, really, fuck boys take time, they take energy, they're frustrating, they play games, they say mixed messages, and so I like
to compare it to walking on a treadmill. It's like, sure, dating a fuck boy gives you something to do, but after all that effort, you really don't get anywhere.
This is I mean, I think this is something that Keisha you do often. Keisha has this really bad habit and it's it's what we talk about all the time of like everyone that she dates, seriously, dates casually sleeps with. You're like, I just genuinely think they're a really great person. I'm going to keep them in my life, and you do. Every single person. I've never met anyone that keeps more fuck boys, ex's, whoever in their line.
Just because they're not my person doesn't mean that they don't bring other elements of things to my life, and some of them have become good friends.
But banw Logan's saying that this is it's like an opportunity cost, right, You're taking away ten opportunity.
Yeah, And I think that's something that if I'm being completely transparent, is that by keeping them around in my life, I also do think like, oh, you know, maybe the timing just wasn't right for us then, but maybe it will be right in the future. And if I kind of like get rid of that person completely from my life, then that option might be taken away from me in the future.
What are your thoughts logan on timing. Do you believe that there is a right person, wrong time, or do you think if it's the wrong time, it's the wrong person.
So first of all, just want to respond to the thing about seeing the best in people like that is an amazing quality and I feel like it probably just makes your life better. Like there's tons of research right that people who are optimists often like see opportunity more than other people and then have good things happen to them. You probably assume people will be nice and that they'll like you, and then in response, they are nice and
they like you and you like them back. So this is overall a great quality that's probably serving you in life in general. I would say, though, you know, don't fall in love with potential. I think oftentimes when you are that type of person, you're like like, well they did this, but you know they were having a hard day, or but if they you know, if they got a
different job than it would work. And in that case, I would just say, like, if you're looking for monogamy and you can only date one person, I really don't want you to waste time with someone who can't really give you what you need. And so embrace that quality, but I would say, don't allow it to have you make excuses for other people. And I was coaching this guy the other day. He was so sweet, like fell in love with his personality, but he definitely had this trait.
And so what I gave him as an exercise was thinking about a person he loved, which in his case was his younger sister. And I was like, imagine that your younger sister described the person she was dating, and what she was saying was, what's happening to you with the girl that you're dating, Like how would you feel about somebody treating your sister like that? And he's like, I would be enraged, Like nobody should treat my sister
that way. I'm like, well, you should at least hold yourself to the standard of how you should be treated that you have for your sister. And so for you, you can really think about, like this person may be lovely, I appreciate them. All these things are going on. That being said, I don't necessarily need to put up with this behavior. And so that's my little rant about, you know, having high enough standards while still understanding that people are doing the best they.
Can now for the timing question, Oh yeah, the time. You know, this is a hard one.
I don't feel like I have like a scalding hot take on this one. What I've heard people say is even if it's the right person, if they're not willing to date you, now, it's can't be like right person, wrong time, because the wrong time thing inherently makes them the wrong person. That being said, I do have some stories like I had a friend who she met this woman on Okaycupid. She asked her out, the woman said yes, and then later was like, I'm going to need to
take a rain check. And a year later my friend reached out and was like, how about that raincheck? And now they're married and have a baby, And so that story is just so cute because it's like it genuinely was the wrong time for that person. My friend remembered her and reached out and like it did work out. But I feel like that story's memorable because it's the exception,
not the rule. And so in general, I would say most people are willing to make time for you if they feel like you're the right match, and so there's something going on if they feel like they can't make that moment work, and so I would say, like, value your time, feel urgency around this, and if somebody can't be with you right now, find somebody who both wants to date you, is willing to make you a priority, and isn't giving you a date in the future.
Now loan something that one of my childhood best friends said to me a couple of years ago, and I have never forgotten it because it was one of the best bits of advice I've ever heard. Both of us were kind of like dating people, and she was finding that she was and brit I know that you've experienced this too, the person before the person.
Oh my gosh, of course, you know the person.
That they would date I call the one before the one. Find the one before the one.
Yea, yeah, the one before the one.
Anyway, she realized that she was kind of in a lot of these situations where she thought that she was seeing someone and then, as it turns out, they were seeing her and also seeing a couple of other people, and then they would pick from that group. So something she ended up asking pretty early on which is pretty full on, but she would say, Hey, is there anyone
that thinks they are dating you right now? Like, is there anyone that in their mind they think that they're seeing you, because I want to know about that before I invest more of.
My time, you mean, just trying to find out like if yeah, a nice way to say are we exclusive or not?
More so like not so exclusive, it's more so like this would be she would ask upon like the first or second date where she would kind of want to gauge of, like it's okay if you're dating other people, but is there anyone that thinks that they are in an exclusive relationship with you or working towards that? What is a way to ask that question in a maybe less a long way way? But I think it's brilliant.
Yeah, it reminds me. There's a famous quote. It's from a famous comedian and I forget who's from. But it's like, I don't have a girlfriend, but I know a woman who would be angry to hear me say that. Yes, Like it's definitely the same essence. And I've honestly been thinking about that.
A lot lately.
So what's horrid about what your friend's question is that I feel like it comes across as very cynical and really like man, dating has burned me and I'm having a hard time, and like, you better not fuck with me the way other people did.
Right, Like, I.
Totally understand where she's coming from. She's trying to protect herself, but I really worry that saying something like that could be a huge turn off because what it's gonna lead to in the guy's head is alarm bells are gonna go off. It's like she's super skeptical, she's cynical, like she's been around the box block and she's been burned.
She's always gonna question me, and so like, even though I have so much empathy for why she's asking it, I feel like the phrasing of that question could get her in trouble and could turn off a guy who's otherwise like very honest, has done nothing wrong, but just feels almost like guilty and so proven innocent. And so let's see if we can come up with another way for her to ask that. So there's one way of doing it, which is just saying, are you seeing anyone
else right now? Another thing is that maybe she doesn't need to know in the beginning, but it's more that once she and the guy really start hitting it off, she should be more upfront about having the dtr that define the relationship conversation or the woo woo, what's up with us? And so like, what about if you know when things are going well, Let's say, like after a month, she says something like, I'm really enjoying hanging out. I'm
going to delete the apps. I don't really feel like I need to meet somebody else right now?
What about you?
How are you feeling? And by sharing what's going on for her and mirroring the type of honesty she wants to have, she's letting the guy say something so he could say, I'm.
Happy to hear you say that.
You know, I did get out of a relationship pretty recently, and so I want to play the field.
A little bit more.
I'm not ready to do that, or oh, I already deleted the apps, like I didn't mention it. Like I think just creating more opportunities to have hard conversations with people and feeling bold because we often don't bring things up because we're afraid of the answer that we might get. And so instead I would really think about, you know, what could she do to feel more empowered to have that conversation sooner, a.
Discussion that we have a lot.
A lot of questions that come in is around when is the right time to say what you want in a relationship or what you're looking for when you start dating. Do you put it straight on your dating profile? Do you do it day one? On the first day, you're having dinner, you say, hey, look.
What are you looking for? Are you relationship? Kids just want to have sex casual?
Because for women, as we get older, a lot of women are looking for a relationship.
It's what they want.
But there is this idea of well, if I go and say that too soon, it might scare them off, or they might think I'm too serious, even though the guy might want the same thing. There's this idea that if you directly go and say what you want.
They're going to run for the hills.
I was on a date this week and the first date and he said to me, we're having dinner and he said to me, what are you looking for in a relationship? And I mean, I have a dating podcast?
And I freaked out. In my head. My internal monologue was, holy fuck, do you tell him what you actually want, which is like looking for dress? I was like, and I did.
The most I found about answer where I like touched on both. I was like, well, you know, I'm thirty five, so yeah, I'm looking for the right person. I want to share my life with someone, so I would like a relationship.
Having said that, I'm also.
Open to just cruising for a little bit and having fun and seeing if something goes somewhere. And I just did this stupid answer that like covered every single base possible, because in my head, I'm like, if you just tell him you're ready for a relationship.
He's going to run a mile.
How early on do you think you need to have those conversations or it's okay to have those conversations.
It's such a good question, and I think a lot of people worry about this or like I really know what I want, but I don't want to scare the person off. And so I have done some research on this at Hinge, and so we ran this really cool experiment where we had a couple different marked up profiles
and under what are you looking for? Some people just had something more generic like somebody to laugh with and have a great time with, and other people were much more explicit about like looking for a long term relationship, looking to get married and have kids, and what we found was that it all depended on what the person
who looked at the profile was looking for. So when somebody who's looking for a relationship sees on your profile that you're looking for a relationship, they're much more likely to message you. And so already putting it on your profile basically as soon as you're meeting the person is great because you're really getting more messages from people that are what we call intentioned users, people looking for a relationship.
But perhaps the even better news is that somebody who's not looking for a relationship, when they see that, they are eleven percent less likely to send you a message, and so it saves you time. You're basically taking those fuck boys and saying no fuck boys allowed, and then
they self censor and remove themselves from the pool. And so if you're thinking about all the places that you could say it, you could say it on your profile, you could say it in your first message, you could say it on your first date, you could say it
in your second date. To me, this is evidence that saying it as early as possible is great because instead of wasting your time with someone who's not looking for the same thing, you're saying it from the beginning, and somebody who's going to be scared away by that is probably somebody who's not looking for a relationship. And so I really feel strongly that there's nothing to be embarrassed about if you just own your story and you say, hey, i've been dating for a while, I've learned so much
about myself. I've had some good times, I've had some bad times, but I know I'm really looking to be in a relationship.
What about you.
You're basically doing what I said before. You're sharing in an authentic and vulnerable way. You're modeling the honesty that you want them to have, and then you're allowing them to share, and you're making sure that there's no right answer.
That's wording, don't go in crazy and hall.
Now, Logan, you have a phenomenal newsletter. I am signed up to it for anyone who isn't. You can grab it from Logan's website. I'll put a note in the show notes for it. And a couple of weeks ago, your newsletter wrote about this thing called the sunk cost fallacy.
Yes, CF, I just made that office ESCF. What is the sunk cost fallacy?
Well, thank you for being a newsletter subscribe the Sun costs fallacy. My husband always says it as throwing good money after bad. It's basically this idea that once you've invested in something, you have to see it through. And so the example I gave in the newsletter is that I went to the movies and I knew fifteen minutes into it that I didn't like it. And so the old me would be like, Okay, I'm going to stay because I've already spent the twenty dollars in the movies.
But now that I know about this, the way I think about it is whether I stay or I leave. Either way, I've paid twenty dollars, but at least if I leave, I get my time back. And there's this feeling of well, I can go call a friend, I can go listen to a podcast, I can go shopping, I can have a delicious lunch, whatever it is. And so really understanding that just because you spent money on something doesn't mean that you should also spend your time
on it. Just because you've worked hard on a project but the project isn't going anywhere, it doesn't mean you should continue.
So it's giving you.
This understanding that despite the fact that you've spent your time on something, it doesn't mean you need to keep spending more time on it. And so how it's relevant to relationships is that sometimes I meet people who have been in a relationship for two years and they've actually been unhappy for eighteen months, but they keep staying because they feel like, well, I've already invested this time, I
have to keep going. And so how it relates to fuck boys is that you're already entangled with them and you think I should keep going or I'm going to change them, I'm going to fix them. But I would much rather that you call it, identify what it was, which was a situationship with the fuck boy, and then move forward and find somebody else, instead of saying, well, I've spent this much time with them, I might as well stick around.
I think this happens a lot.
I've had a lot of friends I've even been in the situation, but a lot of friends that are like I've just you know, we've been going for six months now, like i feel like I've put so much time and engine to him that I'll just hang around another six months and see what happens. Whereas exactly what you just said all you're doing is stopping yourself from going and
getting opportunity in the next six months. I would be the person now like you, I would walk out of the movie now because I value my time so much more.
Yes, take back your time.
Yeah, time is invaluable. I think it's such a hot commodity that people don't have enough of. And you don't want to be giving your time to people that aren't well adding anything back to your life. And I think there's something a lot of people need to think about
right now. If you're in this situation, if you are literally in a situation now where you're with a fuck boy, a fuck girl, or someone that you think is wasting the time, ask yourself, what are they adding to this situation other than maybe maybe sporadically semi good sex.
I totally agree with all of that, And like, isn't that just a message that you would want to spread to like your audience, your friends, your family, which is
just value your time more. Like, think about like what you could do if you weren't scrolling on Instagram, or you weren't feeling bad about a fuck boy, or you weren't wondering, you know, is this person going to text me back and really just being like, if you think about a role model that you have, or like somebody who's super accomplished, like they're not wasting their time on those things. They're achieving their goal, learning, becoming better, investing
in their relationships. And so really like I wish that we would all and I totally include myself in this take our own time more seriously.
Like we've been speaking about it in the terms of like dating and the earliest stages of dating, but does this apply to people in long term relationships as well?
Like, I mean, I know.
That for my parents, my mum had been with my dad since she was fifteen, and I know that she got to her mid forties and she was kind of like, we haven't been in love for a really long time, but we've spent all of this time together. We've built this house together, we've got this family, you know, we've got this life together. Does the sun cost fallacy apply to people like that that have been in really long term relationships?
Yeah, So I'll just start by saying, you know, I've been married for two years, so I don't want to speak on behalf of somebody who's been married. Let's say, for thirty years with kids in a house and a mortgage and all that. So I think there is a lot of nuance there, and there are complications, but yes, this applies to many areas of our lives. It's why we put up with friendships that have probably reached their expiration date. But we're just sort of like, well, I
guess I'll keep them around. And sometimes it's a good thing. Like sometimes you've built a life with someone and even if the romantic or sexual part has faded, they're still your partner and you want to continue living with them. And so just because you know some of that early chemistry or honeymoon period has faded, certainly isn't a reason to break up. But yes, I would say I see
this all the time. And in my book I talk about two types of people, hitchers and ditchers, and so ditchers are people that stay in relationships too short, maybe after three months or six months. They're like, oh, you know, the love has faded. It's not as fun as the falling in love. I'm going to move on to the
next person. They don't understand that with every relationship there's naturally a transition, and falling in love isn't the same as being in love, but for some cost fallacy hitchers is absolutely relevant because hitchers stay in relationships too long
because they've already put that time in. And so that goes back to the example I gave of the coaching client who had been the woman for two years, had not enjoyed it for the last eighteen months, but was like, the first six months were so great, and I've already invested the time, And so for someone like him, I would just say, you know, you can't stick around for
what was there at the beginning. And so yes, absolutely applies to longer term relationships, but more complicated because of course you've built a life together.
How do we identify if we are the fuck boy or fuck girl in this situation? Like, what are some of the signs that maybe we need to check ourselves and have a bit of a look in the mirror as to whether way of bringing that to the dating world.
I worked on a podcast for the last few years called This is Dating, and one of the people that I was coaching, he was so lovely, but he was a very typical love bomber, and I would also say fuck boy, And it was so interesting because I felt like he was even doing some of it to me, Like after one of our coaching sessions, he wrote me this like really intense poem about how I had helped him, And every time I logged on too Zoom, he would tell me how beautiful I looked, and I was like,
oh my god, like I'm being loved bombed by my client. And it was just really interesting because he was truly a lovely person. I don't think he was doing anything malicious, but there was obviously something inside of him that had this need to flur, to seduce and to please, and
so I've really thought a lot about that psychology. And so one of the things that I noticed with him, and that I think is true with a lot of fuck boys, is that it's kind of like all these interactions are a game that you can win by getting somebody to like you. And so as opposed to thinking like you and me are a team, baby, and it's like us against the world, it's like you versus me,
and how can I win by really seducing you? And so if you think about dating as a game that you can win, that might be a sign that you're a fuck boy. And so even though we generally want to be liked and that's like a healthy part of survival and being in a group and this and that these people have an excessive need to get validation. And it's something that I would encourage them to look at, which is what hole are you trying to fill? Why
do you feel like everyone you need to date? You need to get them to not just like you as a person, but to fall for you? And like why is the setup this feeling of like can I get them? And for them it's so much about the like can I get you to like me? Is it the chase? And you're not realizing that there's a real person on the other end whose feelings are at stake, who thinks
that you genuinely like them. Well, what you really like is the feeling of getting somebody else to fall for you, And so really it's that extreme need to win people over.
The other thing goes back to what I said about the beginning, which is where their actions don't match their words, and so they make a lot of promises, so for example, things like oh we can date when things get less busy at work, or they give a lot of compliments like I'm so into you, and they know in their heart they don't mean it, and so it's like they have a skill of saying what does that person want and delivering it, But what they should move towards is
only saying it when they mean it. And then the last thing I would say is getting involved with people who you know want commitment even though you don't, and can you move towards a world where you let the person know that you don't want commitment and if that's the only thing they're looking for, then you move on instead of kind of lying to yourself and being like, sure, maybe I would date her one day when in your heart you're like, no, that's not the person I want to be in a relationship with.
Well, I think it would be very silly of us to have a behavioral scientist and a dating coach from Hingeon and not talk about dating profiles and how all those single people out there can make sure they've got the absolute best profile. What are your top tips for making like the bomb profile?
Yes, and we've done a ton of research on this at Hinge. So first thing I would say is think about your profile is telling a story. So often we're like, okay, well this picture plus this prompt think about it altogether. So I like to say to people, what are the three things that you want to communicate on your profile? So it might be you know, I love this sports team, I'm super close to my family, and I love to cook. And then you want to have a profile that really
gets those things across. So you don't need three pictures of you cooking, but you might want to have a combination. And then you don't want all of your answers to say the same thing. You really want varieties. So that's number one. The next thing is that your first profile photo should be a clear headshot, no filters, no sunglasses, no dark shadows, just like, this is what I look like. Because people don't want to play a guessing game, and they're not going to be like, well, let me see
her other photos. They're just gonna be like, Nope, can't tell what she looks like. You also want to include photos of you doing an activity that you love, a full body shot, and at least one photo with friends and family, but not something where they have to guess which one of your siblings you are or which one of the bachelorette girls.
You are waits Wally.
That's literally the case for me because my photos are with girls who will own the bachelor.
Ignore the bride'smaids, Ignore the bachelorettes. You don't want to play Where's Wally? And then when it comes to your prompts, you want to have a mixture of humor and vulnerability. So show us your dad joke, show us your puns, whatever is your sense of humor. But you also want to have some earnest ones. Like I worked with this guy who was really nerdy and sweet and loved reading, and so we wanted to say that he wanted a long term relationship, but we wanted to do it in a sweet way.
So we wrote.
Looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with cute.
That's a good one.
I just thought it was so cute because it's like I'm looking for something serious. I love reading, but like I'm in it for a good time and a long time.
Well, I put a photo up of myself and my dog, Delilaho's Everyone that knows me knows she's my obsession, and I just wrote, like package deal. That's so cute, this long term deal, this is what we come as. But Keisha has this problem and we always say that you really need to work on your prompts. Be great, give people something to talk about. I'm a big advocate for
that as well. And when I write to someone first, I like to comment on something that they've gone to the effort of something on their profile.
But Keisha's quite extreme.
If somebody writes to Keisha and just says hi or hi, how are you, she won't write back because she's like, yeah, fuck you, you put no effort in where it's like, I think that's a bit extreme, because sometimes boring, I'm kind of.
Like, you don't care how I am. You don't know me. Also, what am I gonna reply to that? Good? How are you? Like?
Sometimes at the end I think of myself. Sometimes at the end of a really long day, I might want to start a conversation with some because I'm interested in them, but I do not have the energy to go through and think of something funny to say. So sometimes even I and my advice to everyone is be creative, But sometimes I'm like, hey, how are you?
That's what I do?
So do you think that that's too cash? Is too extreme to not respond to a Hey how I.
You know, I've thought about this a lot, and also you know, I've been following this trend of beige flags, you know, beage flags is this idea that red flags are run away, green flags are a go, and beige flags are like a sign that the person might be boring. And one of the things that came up is just saying the hey, how are you? And I used to be like, come on, people are busy, it's no big deal.
But at this point, I'm like, put some effort in, like comment on something in my profile, say something like what you're up to, and then ask a question. And so in this stage where a lot of people are burned out and we're all just trying to make it through, I would say that I think that's an okay filter. And my really advice for everyone would be put more effort into your messages because amazing people like Kisha are filtering you out. If you just say hey, how are you.
Like, it's stop flirting with me. I know, I'm just trying. I'm a lot love vombing you.
There's also amazing people like me, and sometimes I get on the dating slote and I'm like, I don't have anything left in me. I don't have one more creative thing. So I'm going to be like Hey, lacky glasses, how are you?
That's it?
Maybe you shouldn't be messaging at that time, then maybe you should come back.
To the apps like at a time.
I'm doing my best here.
It's so hard.
It's like I write all these creative messages and nobody writes back, So what's my motivation? But I would still say that putting an effort into that early stage is a sign that you're willing to put an effort into dating and the relationship. And so I would still say, like worth it to write nice comments. They tend to
get more responses than just to like. And I feel okay with you ignoring the people who write hi, how are you, unless, of course you think they have a really great profile and you know you want to make an exception.
Look, at the end of the day, I think that dating, I mean not dating, coach. I think dating should be fun. And I think that if you're getting really exhausted by it, or you're hating it, or you're having down moment and you're not enjoying it anymore, I think you can take a break. I think maybe it's time to get off the app for a couple of weeks, just hang out with some friends go out and try and meet people.
But I would hate for anyone out there to be so down and out about dating because they're going through dating fatigue situation. So the question is for people that are experiencing dating fatigue, is the right thing to do what I do and just like shut down for a couple of weeks and just go out and join their friends and then try and go back on. Because what happens too is I've been single for the best part
of ten years. A lot of people out there, they live in the same suburb, right, So when you're online dating for that long and you live in the same area or the same city, you're seeing a lot of the same people, you're having a lot of the same conversations.
It does you do get a lot of fatigue. So what's your advice to those people?
Yeah, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And this is something I hear about a lot. So there's a couple of things you can do. So WAN is just taking a break and recharging and whatever that means for you. So whether it's like spending a lot of time with friends, just being at home and reading a book and drinking tea, like if you feel like you just want to recharge.
That's great. I would generally say it would be good to have a date in mind that you're going to come back, because what I see is sometimes people say they're going to take a short break and then they don't come back for a long time, and then I worry that they're being a hesitator and you know, spending too long waiting and not enough time dating. So that's one thing I would say. Something else is what is
making dating feeling like burnout for you? And so one of the common things that I see is that people are having the same conversations over and over in their chats. And so, for example, I had a client who was into trap pees and so she had this really cool photo of her doing trap peez wearing this leotard, and so people would always comment.
Oh my god, so cool. How long have you been doing trapeze?
And even though she was proud of it, she got so this conversation. So we switched up her profile, new pictures, new prompts, and then she got into entirely different conversation and so i'd really break down, where am I getting tired? Is it that I'm going on too many days a week. Is it that I'm having the same type of conversations?
Is it that I'm not sleeping enough? And so really trying to diagnose what's making you feel burned out and then addressing that I think is better than just like the download, delete, download delete cycle that can get really tiring.
Well like, and I think we'll cover it a lot of ground today. We so much grown, we go it so much ground. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again. We absolutely love having you.
Can you tell.
Everyone where they can find you, where they can.
Get you a book?
Absolutely?
Yeah.
So my book is called how to Not Dialan and you can find it in both bookstores. I read the audiobooks so you could get the audio version. You can take my three Dating Tendencies quiz at my website loganuri dot com slash quiz, and you can follow me on Instagram at logan Uri.
And I actually really suggest signing up to Logan's news because I always find them really really interesting.
Yours and Mark Manson's newsletter are my two favorite newsletters. That is such a.
Great compliment, Thank you and amazing.
What's coming up in the next newsletter? Have you written it yet?
Oh?
I love that. Yeah, So this week and next week we're talking about emotional vulnerability, basically how people are looking for it, what it means, how to be emotionally vulnerable without sharing too much information. And yeah, we have some other fun ones coming up with lots of dating advice and psychology terms and all of that stuff.
Well, I hope everyone listening puts their floaties on and swims the fuck off.
Fuck Boy Island. Thank you, sor.
Yay, okay, amazing to chat with you. Thanks for having me on again until next time.
You know that we never finished an episode with that. Our suck and our sweet, our highlight and our lowlight of each and every week. And Brittany Hockley, you can kick it off.
I got scammed this week. Hell, in order not buy something, you want to be scammed. This was how crucial thing?
How much money did you get scammed by? About one hundred and twenty dollars? Oh that's yeah, I'd be fucking dirty. Yeah I'm dirty and they're not paying it back. Did scared?
So Dolilah got a period, as we know, she's on heat and a heat last up to four weeks because I googled that, because I'm like, when is this going to end? So I tried to get her some dog nappies. It's a heat nappy, right, It's literally just a nappy. Put your bra back and you're.
Waving that bra around. Can I stick it to your forehead for the rest of the record. I don't want to boob sweat on my forehead.
So I quickly tried to get these dog nappies, and the pet store in Bondi, like the local one, didn't have any. They were sold out, so I had to get them online, which said next day delivery, so great. So whilst I was on there, you spend a bit more for free delivery, right, So I was like, oh'll throw some toys in. I was like, oh, it's some big you know.
I ended up spending about a hundred and fifty bucks.
I was going to say, one hundred and fifty dollars for nappies is pretty fucking no.
So I got the big dog food and like, actually the toys in because I was like, I don't ever want to have.
Just count baby Friday, let's go for it.
I don't like to leave the house, so they just never came. Then they started to ask me about my bank details.
And I was like, hang on a minute.
Wait, where did you order this through Amazon?
No, it was like some pet circle thing, like an actual website on my Yes, that came recommended. They were like, you need to verify it's you so we can send it out. But they took the money and I was like, I'm not giving you any verification of my just send the product. And then I was like, hang on a minute.
Then they kept sending me these automated things and I was like, just give me the money back. Then didn't get the money back, didn't get a product.
And have you called the company because you know that that's exactly what happened. When we bought the roadcasters, they wouldn't send them to me, and I had to verify that the credit because that's not a scam. You need to just verify they're a real company. That's a real thing.
Why are you no? Because I even sent it to Keisha and she said that's dodgy. No, no, no, that's like a very it's a very real thing. A lot of companies.
We do it with Tony May if we can't because for example.
I hated you just send me the product, because.
So when you buy something in Shopify or through like a you know, any sort of web portal for some reason. Sometimes maybe your IP address doesn't match where your credit card is whatever it is. If there's something that's suspicious about your purchase, it fly on their end that your order looks suspicious and so therefore you need to prove more identity. You should just have to send across like a copy of your license or something that should.
They asked for my bank statement.
Oh yeah, yeah, to prove that the credit card is linked to that. Yeah, yeah, it's fine, I think.
Oh, just send me my pole company sold you hard basket. The reason I shop online is I want to sit there press by and it turns up to my hands. I don't want to go and make a phone call. I don't want to go to my bank and story shot and send.
Them ship like yours.
Suck is more so that you don't want to spend time to prove your identity rather than getting scared.
Okay, it appears that way.
You didn't get skipped all that I am because they haven't responded. They won't give me my money back, so they're just pretending now that I'm not here.
We'll talk about this off qua what's your sweet for the week. My suite for the week is I'm still no crushing. I'm already No, I'm crushing hard. No, look, I'm feeling my breasts.
Okay, I am going to tell you that this is a disaster waiting to happen.
Brittany. You always you know me, yep, and I'm.
Always correct this may I need some support every noight again, Laura, there.
Has been some that I've been supported, this new one. This is a bad idea, Brittany Hockley.
And you know it. Look in my face now.
I cannot believe that we have a dating relationship podcast and after three years you are still entertaining this relationship.
Firstly, firstly, you know I have an attraction to people that aren't here.
Yeah, because I'm commitment fo I know I would a red flag because I know it.
I also want to make this very plea to everybody listening to this. This is I'm not being the hard ass best friend. If you knew all the details around this, which you don't, but if you did, you would come and smack Brittany and say you are being such a naughty little girl.
Do not try and entertain this day.
What's the detail you don't like that he doesn't live in this country, to turn on that he's physically not here, turn on that you only knew him for two days, and now you're in love with him.
Not in love with him, I'm in lust with him.
It was three days and we've been speaking for a long time now.
Of course on social media. I can't guys. Okay, okay.
My SLFE for the week is that Britney never learns.
She never learns from her mistakes.
And I'm so tired three years of being the responsible one.
It's too much. You're tired. But let's be real. I'm giving you content. That's all I need, and I'm learning slowly. It's just so hot to me. He's very attractive. It's the whole situation's hot.
Like oh, there's so many red flags, like do you know what someone just says, I'm not here that I want to talk to you.
I'm like, oh, yes.
I'm not available. I can't commit to you. And I also.
To drop a crucial piece of information Laura that just delete, delete that out.
Fucking delete. Yes, I know, but maybe this is the no.
But maybe you and I need to have a talk about maybe what's right for sum sorrow for others. And maybe I'm never going to be the person because I'm so fucked up that needs someone in my space all the time. Maybe I can't deal with that and I go into a shell of myself. I don't know, because I haven't had it. But there's definitely something to me that loves the idea of being in love and having a relationship where you do only see each other sporadically, but.
Then they cheat.
You still have to deal with the heartbreak, and that means so do we.
Yeah, but that's cute for you. Yeah, one of my best friends forever.
To be fair, I love you're dealing with. My heartbreak was pretty tough love. It was pretty fucking get back out there, please do not out of band. No, absolutely it was not.
Yeah, look, Britt, I want you to be happy. I just don't want you to date fuck boys. And after this episodisode of talking about dating fuck boys.
Now I know I've also said this before, but I don't think he is all right. What's your or is it that late? If I'm talking? What is your suck? So my suck for the week. No, you're not my suck.
I love you, and I do appreciate the content, but holy dick. Sometimes I'm like, holy dick, Holy dick. My stuck for the week is that Matt had the man flew over the weekend, which meant he spent the whole time in bed, which you know, it hits him hard. He had to stay in bed and watch TikTok for you, to be fair, though, he was actually really he was really genuinely sick. And I take the piss because he's normally he's usually so hands on with the kids, He's so hands on with everything.
Around the house.
Actually he was like flawed on Saturday, couldn't get out of bed until three or four pm. And then come Sunday he was pretty good. But like we were testing for COVID all weekend and no no COVID.
Just the flu. Okay.
My sweet for the week is that last week was Tony May Black Friday sales and it was like busy. This week I think we've ever had it was bananas. It's so sometimes it's this weird thing to me that I had this whole other life, like my Tony May life is just this completely separate business and real job.
So what I what I'm hearing in that was I'm going to get a really good Christmas present, or like I'm healing diamond, Thank you bait.
Really, it genuinely is.
It's just like every so often we have like career goal kicking wins over that side of things.
I'm just like, oh, that's and it is great because you do have a double life.
I do like all of my past relationship jewelry.
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