Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island of peoples today.
This episode of Life un Cut is recorded on Gadigal Land of the Aurora Nation and bunge Lung of the Araqual people.
Hi guys, and welcome back to a very special episode of Life Uncut. And it's special because Laura has entered a new year of life. She's thirty one ish plus a bit plus on line as we all keep the daily mail casing I'm Brittany.
I'm the one whose age is very ambiguous. No, I'm thirty six, everybody, and I am a proud thirty six year old woman. I just want to say I've had the freaking best birthday this year. And I had a real moment in the last couple of days but I was like, I think my late thirties are going to be the best years of my life. I'm calling it all the feels.
Oh God, do you know what is funny? I know I did a birthday post for Laura, and I said something like, I can't believe you're thirty one, like obviously just making a joke. Someone commented and goes, I'm pretty sure she's thirty six. I was like, bro, it's a joke. It reminded me last year when it was my birthday and I was with Jordan and Jordan did a birthday post. Now, the running joke was that I was like seven years older than Jordan. So Jordan was like, happy twenty fifth,
Happy birthday to my sixtieth. No, he was like, happy twenty fifth birthday. And someone wrote on his post and was like, I can't believe you'd think she's twenty five. She's, you know, telling the truth kind of thing, like trying to call me out. She is like she's thirty, she's thirty four. Jordan was like, this person is serious. I was like, guys, this is a joke. I'm not lying. I'm not caf mashining him to keep him.
I think it's funny because I think age is such a thing that we're supposed to be wary of as we get older, like almost like we're supposed to wear age with shame. And I know that we make jokes about it all the time, but I was thinking about it, and Matt asked me, He's like, if you can look back, like what has been your favorite phase of life? And of course my twenties were cool, Like traveling around the world was cool. Doing fun things in my twenties when
there was no responsibilities was amazing. But at the same time, I think about that period of my life in my twenties and just how I didn't have my shit together, just how like emotionally.
Chaotic I was.
Even though I, yes, sure maybe I was in India having like your low time of my life, it was such a chaotic emotional time in that like it's when you go through the weird throws of relationships, It's when you're trying to figure everything out. And then now at thirty six, I'm like, Okay, I don't get to do all of that stuff, and I'm sitting in Barron Bay in a very kid friendly resort. But at the same time, I'm like, I feel so much more at peace, I feel so much more accepting of who I am as
a person. I feel so much more comfortable and confident.
And I mean my.
Boobs are as the saggers they've ever been. But I feel the most confident I've ever felt. And it's a really, really nice place to be in life.
I mean, you look like a supermodel and you boom great, I can confirm, but no, but I think that this is I mean, what I think is that every phase of life we go through, because we're changing with it, we think that that is the best time of our life. And it's because we've evolved and grown. But like I look back at my young twenties, my twenties, when I was traveling the world, I literally was living the life. I was traveling NonStop. I had so many experiences. But
with that comes stresses. It comes debt, becomes no money. When you're younger, usually unless you are blessed and born into a very wealthy family or somehow you won a lottery, you've got a lot of money. Those younger years are very formative and you're at university and you're starting to grind. You're at the start of a job, so you're not earning good money. Yet they come with their own level
of stresses. So now I'm older, I've got more I've got more money to travel and do things, but I don't because I'm working so hard gets the money to travel. So it's like it's all backwards, do you know what I mean? Like life is backwards, and I think you've just got to live in a moment and make the most of what you have totally. And I just think, like I think my twenties were such a volatile time of life. And I know that you say that my tits are great, but they used to make eye contact
and now they look at the floor. But apart from that, everything else is great. They still do make eye contact with someone that's lane on the floor. There you go, exactly, just it chasteurized down everybody. But you did have a good birthday. I had such a fun time.
So we are currently I know we said last week that we were recording this by a zoom. We're also recording this start of this week's episode by a zoom.
We have.
I can't even tell you how great this week's episode is. I'm so excited for you to listen to the conversation we had. We have a guy on his Canadian his name is Mark Groves, and he is truly a relationship expert and a modern day philosopher and how he speaks about human connections, how he speaks about relationships and how he speaks about the.
World of dating.
I feel like everybody read, whether you were single or whether you're in a relationship, you were going to get something so incredible out of this episode. But in the meantime, this intro I'm en Byron at the moment. We decided to take the kids up here for a couple of days just to get away from oh just to get out of Sydney and to kind of have a change of scenery. It has rained every single day except for one, which was kind of expected, just done like.
Really wholesome family things. We went to the bowling club for my birthday. We rocked out to this really old school band.
The kids are jacked on ice cream and yeah, it's been really fun.
I'm here for I love that you've gone away. I love that you've reset. I love that with you with your kids, you're having ice cream. I saw your birthday. You were at the pub, the local pub, having a dance with Mali.
Some of you guys might remember last year we bought a house up here, and like, we're not living in it. We still live in Sydney and we're renting the place. Out, but we really loved the little community that we bought in, and it's in an area called Bangalow, and so we came up and we thought for my birthday would go to the Bangalo Bowls and we just went to the bowling club and it was so fucking fun. The kids
were running around like they were absolutely feral. Act there was this one moment so all with there's so many kids, because my sister has two kids and then I've got the two kids.
All these kids were just.
Running around being mental and Mallie was standing there dancing, and it's packed as well because there was some like Stonewood party on at the same time. She's there grooving away to Darryl Braithwaite classic and she.
Flings her hand back. She flings her.
Hand back and the entire ice cream cone goes straight into the woman behind hers bo like she puts her chocolate ice cream cone into this woman's butt cheek. And I'm watching this all unfold and Marley's face, the horror on her face when she realizes what she's done. But the woman didn't know, She had no idea what had just happened.
So did you tell her or did you just be like, run, Marley run. I just made eye contact with Marley and we were both like what the fuck do we do? Which is definitely not the face that you make it a two year old, because I feel like I'm supposed to be the voice of reason in this situation. Well, you're supposed to make the decisions. Yes, I both pretended like it didn't happen.
No, Laura, no no, no, no, no no no.
So to the woman who was at a Banngalo bowling club who had an ice cream butt when she got home, I am, I am really sorry. I didn't have the emotional, spiritual, or mental capacity to deal with that at that time, and I'm really really apologetic. I am shook that you did that. I'm the person that would go up to someone and be like, I just know you had the tiniest little green thing in your teeth from across the room.
I could have walked up to and be like, hey, I've just wanted to let you know my daughter just put an entire ice cream into your buttthole.
Sorry about that. You didn't notice? Yes, no, yes you can. That's what you do you do because you let her go and like wash it off. She's not gonna go crazy at you. She's from Bengalo.
No one goes crazy in Bangalo. Everyone's very nice in Bangalo. They're good people up this way, imagine or Laura.
You're gonna get the worst calm now you know that.
I can't wait for us to get a review from someone who's like, I love the podcast, but Laura's a bitch because she put ice cream on someone's bumb and didn't tell them.
Waiting for it. I can't wait, guys anyway, Like.
We said, we have such an awesome episode for you, so I cannot wait to get into this because it is I reckon, this is one of my favorite apps we've ever done.
Britt, I agree, and I want to start by saying just so to quickly tell you who Mark Groves is. He's been on the gram for a long time. He's got a million followers. He's a human relationship connection specialist. He's so wise. He has the most soothing, relaxing, beautiful voice I have ever heard. I could listen he could put me to sleep in terms of how soothing his voice is. But I could talk to him for hours now. I have been a very big fan of Mark Groves.
His instagrams create the love for many years. I actually just went back in my messages to see because I messaged Mark I DMD him. I slip to the DM to try and get him on the pod.
I just want it before you tell this story, Britt, I went back to mine as well, and I have sent him six messages over the years and he has not replied to any of them except the last one. I looked back in twenty eighteen, I shared something that he wrote, I want to read to you what I shared on my stories in twenty eighteen, and I was like, this is me. I never know, but I trust, and
then this is the quote that I shared. I have come to accept the feeling of not knowing where I am going, and I have trained myself to love it because it is only when we are suspended in midair with no landing in sight, that we force our wings to unravel and alas begin our flight. And as we fly, we still we still may not know where we are going to. But the miracle is in the unfolding of the wings.
You may not know where you're going, but you know that so long as you spread your wings, the winds will carry you. That's by Sea joy Bell, but Create the Love put it on, I reshared it and I wrote to him being like I feel this so much right now. He ignored me. He never wrote back. This has been going on from twenty eighteen.
Do you know I love that this was like directly after The Bachelor, when you were going through a mental life crisis as well, and you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And also if you're somebody who when you're going through a hard time, likes to read, tweet or likes to repost quotes, I feel like it's something that we do thinking that it's not an overt
way of sharing what's going on in our lives. But really, when somebody starts sharing Instagram quotes about like you know, not knowing where they're going, or about how their soul is hurting, it's like you you know that person is going through a breakup or there's some big life milestone that's happening in that person's life. Create the Love, which is Mark Grove's Instagram.
It's perfect for that. If you're looking for a quote to share, it is a gold mine.
But the reason why it's a gold mine is because he genuinely just has the most incredibly insightful, incredibly authentic and beautiful perspective on life, on the perspective on relationships, and I loved everything about this chat. We're going to get into that shortly, but before we do, I just wanted to talk to you about something that has completely stopped the world in its tracks, whether you were into sport or not, and that is our Australian Golden Girl, Ash Party.
She's only twenty five years old. She has won three Grand Slam so she's won the French Wimbledon, which Wimbledon was her dream, and just recently this year twenty twenty two, she won the Australian Open. Now she ended a forty four year drought of any Australian winning the Australian Open. It's absolutely huge. You could not be any more at the top of your field than Ash Barty is in tennis. She just came out last week and said, you know what, I'm done, I'm retiring, I'm tappy out and the world
has gone bonkers. Everyone is like, wait, what, what the fuck? How do you you were on this role? You are the You couldn't be better. You will continue to I mean, she's twenty five, they continue, they didn't even usually reach their peak these I mean, I know this because we all know I dated tenth pay, but they usually don't even reach their peak for a few more years. But she's just like, I've had enough.
Especially when you look at someone who like Roger Federer, who's still playing well into his forties, you know, like and still crushing it in his forties, I think that that's where the precedent lies, where you're like, well, twenty five. Yes, maybe twenty five is older in some sports, but for tennis, it's actually still quite young, and there's still a lot of room for being at the top of your game for so many years to come.
And originally the world was pretty crazy. Everyone was like, why would you do this? You're number one, you're the best of your sport, you're so young, you've got years left to go, you can make millions more dollars, you're so inspirational. Everyone was up in arms a little bit and didn't understand it, and they were a bit against
the fact. But since she's come out down a press confidence, we've realized that there this is a lot deeper, and there's a lot more to this, and it's turned into a level of respect that she's walking away so young and at the top of her game, because it really goes against this thing that we call hustle culture. We've talked about hustle culture before, but never on a level have we seen it like this, like somebody of Ash
Barty's level coming out and saying, I've had enough. Ash Muddy said, I know how much work it takes to bring the best out of yourself. I've said it to my team multiple times. I just don't have that in me anymore. I don't have the physical drive, the emotional want and everything it takes to challenge yourself at the very top level anymore. And how fucking refreshing is that? How good is that to see someone say, you know, well, I know I'm good. I know I can have millions.
I know the world wants me to keep playing. I feel the pressure, but guess what, I don't want it and I don't feel it, and I'm going to take some autonomy back in my life and do what makes me happy. And as much as it's so upsetting for so many people to see so many people are praising her now being like, you know what, girl, You've worked so hard, go and live your life.
I just think it is the most empowering thing to be able to do that. And we've spoken, We've done a whole episode on hustle culture and why are we subscribed to not just the nine to five, but subscribe to the six am to ten pm.
You know, we don't switch off.
We're constantly feeling as though we need to be more successful, to be furthering our careers, to be better and bigger. And I think at the end of the day, there sometimes comes a point where you need to reflect on why am I working like a dog? Am I working like a dog for myself for my own internal validation, or am I doing it for somebody else? And I think in this instance Ash having that reflection that she's like, well,
I know that I can be that person. I've already succeeded in everything I wanted to do, and now I want it succeed and work on myself and have a personal laugh because obviously, I mean, brit you would know
there more than anyone. But when you are a professional sports person, the amount of yourself as a human that you sacrifice in order to be an elite sports person, it's almost like it's so unrelatable, Like we probably could never understand how many sacrifices an elite sports person has to make when it comes to the time that they have with their family, all the time that they have with their friends, or even just being able to enjoy and celebrate their wins because they're straight into the next
tournament and the next thing that they have to succeed at. Yeah, and it's one of those things that we know in terms of we know that it's easy for us to sit back and say, but I didn't realize until I obviously experienced it firsthand.
I remember when I met Jordan. I remember him saying to me, and I was a little bit put off at the start. He was like, I'm so I like, I'm in love with you, I'm so into you, I'm so happy. I've never been happier. And I don't want you to take offense to this. I need you to know you're never going to come first. That's what he said. He's like, for now, for this part of my life. And he's like, and that's nothing against you, He's like, it's just it is impossible to put anyone first because
they don't have the capacity. They physically do not have time, they're not in one location, constantly exhausted because it's constantly traveling, always on their own. And then when they're not playing, their training, When they're not training or playing, they're doing physio, they're doing rehab. At the start, I didn't understand. I was like, how could you say that? Like, how could you say you love me so much but not be first.
Then I've experienced their life and I'm like, I get it, And there's so many I met a lot of other people traveling with the tennis players, a lot of other women, a lot of men too. Like Ash Barty's fiance, he travels a lot. He has to go with her all the time to be able to have any sort of relationship with them, And they all say the same thing. They're like, oh yeah, like you won't be first, Like
you've just got to accept that. For a little while, Ash just turned around and was like, you know what, fuck, Like, I'm engaged now and I do want to put someone else first. I'm sick of me having this selfish life.
What Ash did come out and say, and I think this is really powerful in itself. She said, there was a perspective shift in me. This second phase of my career that might happy wasn't dependent on the results. Success for me is knowing that I've given absolutely everything I can. I am fulfilled, I am happy. And she just wants to take this next opportunity to focus on herself rather
than on her career. And I think, like coming off the back of everything that happened with Kim Kardashian two weeks ago, where she was like, people just don't want to work these days and really pushing and subscribing to this like very toxic, fucking hustle culture, I think it's so refreshing to see somebody as successful and as young as Ash Barty not subscribing to what we've been told that you know, is the only way to be successful.
Well, yeah, she said, Now, I think it's important that I get to enjoy the next phase of my life as Ash Barty the person, not Ash Barty the athlete, which it gives me goosebumps to think about, because they're two different people, like you lose any semblance of yourself, And I think a lot of the world forgets that these players, Ash in particular, they've been playing since they were teenagers. Ash has been playing since she was fourteen,
so she actually took a break. Imagine this, at eighteen, she took a break from tennis because she was like, I'm stepping back from it. She went to play cricket like she's an absolute animal. She's just want of these people as good everything. But at only eighteen, she's like, I want to have a life as a teenager because I haven't had it. So I think, while we're like, oh, she's only twenty five, we have to remember they've been
doing it their entire life. There's no normalcy. I remember even Jordan's saying to me, I wish because he's been playing since a teenager. Two. He's like, I would give nothing more than to have some time at home where I can just join a sports team. I can play touch football with my friends. I could go and play trivia on a weekend with my friends, the littlest things that we all take for granted. These people are on
the road every single day of the year. So to Ash Party, I can't wait to see what she does next. She did say she's like left a little hint. She's like, I have other dreams that I want to pursue. I think this is what I'm putting my two cents in. I think we're going to see Ash going to the golf world. That's what I'm going to call I think she's going to go stop playing. I love that you're taking bets now, I am she's got. I think she's gonna play golf. I think she's really genuinely I'm calling
it now, I'm putting it out here. I think she's and I think she's going to be bloody brilliant at it too.
Beyond and separate to Ash Barty, I think that this is just a really incredible message that we can all take a little bit from, and that is, you know, being able to put yourself first is something that's incredibly important and reflecting on why we've subscribe to working so hard. We literally just did an episode on the Overwhelm, and I just think it's so nice to have these incredible role models to show us that there is another fucking
way of living. We don't have to keep on kicking goals and climbing the ladder and if it's not what makes you inherently happy at the end of the day, we.
Do need to definitely acknowledge that Ash is in a position, a very privileged position, where she's made a lot of money, so it is easy for her to walk away and stop grinding. Not everyone is in that position, so you know, we're not going to say, oh, you're working too hard. Everyone quit. She's made millions and millions of dollars, so good for her. She is in a position to do it. Secondly, I don't think we've seen the end of Ash. She's
only twenty five. There is no reason she can't take five years off, comeback, and she'll probably still go back to number one. So I don't think we've seen the end of our good luck, Ash Barty. I think you're a fucking legend. Hats off. You're very inspirational to everyone that watched your over the last five, seven, ten years. Anyhow, we're moving into the next section, which is accidentally Unfiltered, but we do want to keep this little intro short.
I feel like we've already spoken for too longer. We got very passionate about the hustle culture. We want to keep it short because we've got such a great episode with Mark coming up. But I actually wanted to bring you an accidentally unfiltered that happened to a friend of mine this week.
Okay, But before we get into actually unfiltered, can I just say I am not bringing an accidentally unfiltered this week. I trolled through the dms. None of them were that embarrassing. You guys, I know you think it's embarrassing. But on one hand, I'm like very happy for everyone that nothing too traumatic or tumultuous happened this week.
And on the other hand, you all had a great week. You all had a fucking great week. And on the other hand, I'm really sad for us, because, like you know, I want I want the top shelf of embarrassment. If we're gonna do accidentally unfilters, I want it to be like the moment where you had to crawl into a hole and never wanted to come out totally. So this is why, thanks to my lucky stars that I had a friend this week that absolutely annihilated her and gave
me some content to tell as an accidentally unfiltered. I have a friend and she is absolutely petrified of spiders, like she cannot contain herself. She lives alone. I laugh thinking about it. She lives alone, and as you know, there are things you have to do.
We all know.
I had to pick up a possum from my backyard that was dead. It was traumatic. There's things you have to do when you live alone because there's physically no one else is going to help you. So she comes into her bedroom and there is a huge and like, I haven't seen a photo, but this is her report. A huge spider. She reckons it was like the sides of the dinner plate. Obviously she's exaggeram.
I feel like if you're afraid of spiders, your your propensity to exaggerate the situation is probably a little bit higher than most.
Totally, She's like, it was a sidesman anaconda. Anyway, we know that, you know, it's like a big huntsman. And it was above her bed, so she couldn't get into bed. You know that you are never going to sleep. There's nothing you can do. So she's like, far out, you know, I've prepared for this moment. So she went to get the spray, the spider bug spray, because she can't bring herself to capture it, and she can't bring herself to hit her with a shoe. So she gets the bug spray.
She comes in and she's she can't you know, when you can't even bring yourself because you don't want to kill an animal. But you know when you can't even bring yourself to do it, because you know when you spray it, it's gonna run. You don't know where it's going to go. You think it's gonna jump on you. So she's like amping herself up. It's scuttling around. She's frantic, she's screaming. Then it starts to make a run for her,
so she thinks, so she frantically spray. She frantically sprayed the bug spray super aggressively to get it, but she sprayed it backwards into her own eyes. I shouldn't laugh, so she can't. It's all over her face. She can't see now, she's screaming. She can't see the spider, so she's she's like all over the place. She drops the bugspray. She makes herself to the bathroom. She's washing her face, splashing her eyes, frantic, she runs back, still can't see properly.
She runs back to the bedroom and the spider is gone. So she not because she's not. She's got this bugspray all over her face. But this huntsman now is either in her bed, in her pillow, under her bed, in her clothes and she can't find it. That's it. So she hasn't slept in like five days. She's she'd bought the house, Downd, she's moved out. Fuck it. Do you know?
Do you remember when I had the infestation I had? Guys, I don't know if you if you don't follow me on Instagram, you might not know this I had in my old apartment which is now Britney's apartment. I had it just quite so messed up, a Huntsman infestation. I'm talking like thirty humongous fucking spiders just crawling through the house behind the TV and apparently like a nest of eggs had.
Obviously hatched, and they were just all over the house.
There was Huntsmens everywhere, and I'm talking thirty that I could see, not just the ones that were like in the walls or behind fridges or in cupboards and stuff. So you have to have an exterminator to come and get rid of them.
Hypothetically speaking like if someone else was living in your apartment now and their name was Brittany Hockley and their name was brittany where did these come from? And what can you do to stop this? Like Was this a random one off thing or is there like are they in the walls?
I mean, I would definitely I'd like that we're having this conversation right now, but I would definitely suggest that you get your place fumigated yearly.
That's my high recommendation to you. Pretty only looking pest fumigation. Anyway, on that, guys, let's get into the chat with Mark. I'm so excited about today's chat. We have speaker, writer, podcaster, motivational speaker, just an all around great human and most importantly, a human connection specialist. Now you might be familiar with Mark Groves. If you aren't, he has a wildly successful
Instagram page with over a million followers. It's a page that I have actually been following well, Mark, Like, I'm just going to show you how uncle I am. I feel like I've been following you from the beginning, and I think I used to respond to a lot of your like story posts. I used to be like super fan, but I don't think you ever responded back. She slid into the DMO slider. I'm a good dm slider, but no,
Mark Graves. Your Instagram pages create the love. I'm so excited to welcome you to it's a Life on Cut podcast.
Oh, I'm so excited to be here, and you know, I'm sad to hear that I've dropped out of your story reply at level, but you.
Got too big and famous. You left me for dust.
But we are so We were so excited to have you on the podcast today. We've been looking forward to this interview.
For so long.
And one thing I'm very much looking forward to is that we start every single one of our episodes the same way. We want to know what your most embarrassing story is before we get into all the other deep dark secrets you have to share.
Yeah, let's share it. That kind of speaks to my embarrassing story I had to choose because I have like two embarrassing poop stories I had to choose. Neither of them is like worse than the other from an embarrassment, They're just equally bad. So I was in school. I remember going to school. My mom made us go to school pretty much no matter what, like if there was a snowstorm. We lived like a couple kilometers from school,
so my mom would drive us. No one else was at the fucking school except for us, because the teachers are like these fucking kids. Can they just go home? My mom rings I was sick that day. My mom brings Penis school. We already know where this is probably going. And I had one of those moments where you're like scared to fart, like that stage. And I should have been more terrified. We all know that that stage, and I had too much courage. I braved it, and I
basically diarrhea in my pants. The worst part about it is I actually couldn't go home, so I remember went to the bathroom and like clean you know, did the cleanliness? I think I threw I must have thrown out the hunter. I don't even know anymore. I must have. I for the version of this story, I definitely did. And then the rest of the day I spent with my jem winter jacket tied around my waist, Like who walks around with a puffy jacket tied around their waist?
Why didn't they just send you hard? He probably didn't tell anyone he shot his pants.
No one knew it, but I know it's would have been someone who would have been like pointing out my poopy butt. But it was embarrassing because I the whole day I was just terrified, and I also because junior high, you know, kids are assholes at that age, so I was like terrified of someone seeing it because you know, then it gets weaponized against.
You, Yeah, for the rest of your life. So why not just tell it on a national podcast? What age is junior high for us down under people that don't know, is that like twelve thirteen?
Yeah, it's like that grade sevent eight known, that's it.
Right, Because I pooped myself when I was like seven years old. I was going to try and make you feel better, but you were in high school, so it's not a whole.
Different I was an adult and you were still a child.
I like that.
There is absolutely no like, there's no repercussions for this, Like nothing bad happened. But it's one of those real formative memories because the deep seated embarrassment that was internalized by this is still with you as a fully grown man.
As at one where I did, I was in band, so this speaks again to my popularity. In junior high, I was in man and I was sitting in the back row. I played the trumpet, so you get the back row, and I tried to sneak out a fart. And it was on a metal chair and it rang off like a machine gun.
And did you just cover it with the trumpet?
That actually would have worked perfectly if I had just gone. You're way smarter than I was at the time, Like, why not go and just let it out?
Like you literally had a trumpet in your hand, but you decided to trumpet out your butt.
Yeah. So they everyone turned around and looked at me, and I tried to be like oh, but there was no one behind me, so I was doing it anyways. That was embarrassing.
Do you know what the worst thing is? And I don't know if this happened to you when you were twelve, when you pooped yourself. When I did it, I remember because I'm traumatized too. I did it at the school fair. I mean not the school fair. It was the fair in the local town, like in my local town. And I didn't want to get off the rides, and I knew I needed to go toilet, but I wasn't ready
to go off the rides. Anyway, I pushed it to the limit and then I had to go, so I was like, Mom, I need to go to the toilet. The line for the bathroom was one cubicle was so long, so I just shit my pants. No. Everyone started to look around at me, and I was just trying to play it cool and pretend like nothing was happening. And then my mum leans down to me. She's like, Britt, She's like, you already go to the toilet and I was like, no, Mom, She's like, Brit, I can smell it.
She's like everyone, And then there were about fifteen people in front of me, and they all turned around and let me push in front of the line. They're like, you guys can go ahead. How have we been doing this podcast for two and a half years and this is the day that you share? That story just reminded me because my giveaway was me trying to think I was cool with a big turn in my pants. But the smell everyone could smell it. That was a giveaway. And I was like, I promise, mom.
I haven't And how would you sit on another ride like you would have it?
The whole family had to go home and they all my brothers and sisters hated me because the fair got canned earlier. Okay, we should probably get into the question.
I already feel like we're in the trust tree, so this is good. We're in the trust, all right.
I feel like it's time to get into unpacking some of the some of the real questions, the real reason why you're here, Mark, what do you mean is? If that wasn't a real question, when did he poove himself? Well? I want to know.
You're such a modern day philosopher in how you talk about relationships and the advice that you give to people who are trying to navigate what can be one of the hardest parts of just life, human connection. How did you get into doing what you do?
Yeah, you know, I think like so many people who go into work where they're a teacher of any kind, and I would imagine it might be similar for you both in your choice to create a podcast, that it really was that I really started to become the teacher that I needed, you know, Like I love the idea that you turn your mess into your message, and that was my mess. I mean my late teens, I started working at a digital like an electronic store for people in the States they know like Best Buy, but it
was called Future Shop. And I wore a I wore a suit, and I sold extended warranties. I was that that guy.
You were the guys you want to upgrade for fIF.
That was exactly it, like your shit's super good, but in my break, so you need a warranty for it. That I really loved the idea of how do you get people to buy something or like change someone's behavior. I went in into pharmaceutical sales actually after college, and
I worked in that industry for a long time. And during that time I really wanted to study more and more about psychology, but really from the perspective of how do you get people to do things, so more from a manipulative space, And in my late twenties I had an engagement and that was it. That was like I
spent my whole life. I was raised Catholic. I consider myself a recovering Catholic now, and so much of my life was spent and I don't think it matters what religion you are, but culture, religion, movies, they all embedded this idea that I needed to get married by twenty five to twenty seven, have kids by somewhere near there to thirty, and if you're not doing that, there's something sort of wrong with you. And so here I was
right on time. Twenty seven got engaged, and it was this massive moment where I remember proposing and then this realization of sometimes you meet a moment that you were taught to want and then you realize you don't want it, And that was really big for me. I didn't know at the time that that's what was going on, but that actually was the birthplace of me starting to think about like, how did I get here? Is this the
right choice for me? Why am I so terrified? And then when I talk to people about it, they would say, oh, you're just afraid of commitment. Like this idea that one should go terrified towards getting married. Don't get me wrong, we should fear would be normal because it's uncertain. But to have a high level of anxiety is not really a great indicator, you know, anxiety being so indicative of creating a future that we might not want, or being afraid of a future we might not want. And so
that made me really start to question relationships. And another way, I started to look up things on the internet, like how do you know if she's the one. That led me to some really beautiful strangers who had navigated these things, and I wrote on a forum about my circumstances, and this woman replied to me and asked me three questions. She asked me, if she left you tomorrow, would you be okay? And I thought, not only would I be okay, I'd feel relieved that I didn't have to do it. Yeah.
And then the second question was can you imagine what it would be like waiting for her at the altar whatever your altar is? And I thought that made me feel anxious and scared. And the third question was could someone else love her better? And that was such an important question because that was the first time I really thought about it from her experience. I'd been so caught up in my own fears and just overwhelmed that I never really realized I was taking her down a path
and she was worthy of so much more. And of course the follow up question to that is do you want to be the one who can't? And I didn't and I didn't know why, But that was when I ended the engagement, and that was the birthplace of wondering why do I do what I do? Why am I so good at talking about everything but my feelings, like,
there's it's not skills, there's something more. And that was, you know, sixteen years ago when went back to school studied positive psychology, and I just immersed myself in the
science of relationships. And then of course that brought me back to healing a relationship with whatever might be greater than us, because I really had an aversion to the word God, just due to Catholicism and so to spiritual connectedness and how relationships really are this sacred space where we can do healing, we can do courageous things, and I think there's no better container for learning, if.
You don't mind me asking how did you navigate the breakup of that relationship at the time, because I think that there's a lot of and I know that even in myself, I have stayed in relationships for so long past an expiration date because the actual physical doing the breakup was harder than just being there and just kind of coasting along for a while.
How did you physically.
Make that step when you're already at a point where you were supposed to be planning a wedding.
Oh man, like even the planning of the wedding. It was interesting because I had in the acknowledgment of what was finally true, like just actually meeting it and accepting it. I no longer could carry the lie like I could no longer allow myself. I think because of the perspective that I was also car bringing her along, and so that sense of responsibility that I had to not trick her or keep her in the space was really a motivator for me. I mean, one of the hardest conversations
I've ever had to have in my life. You know, you sit down and say this isn't working. After three months after you got engaged. I mean we both sold our houses and bought a house together. I mean, there was so much to undo, and it really made me see that the price of inconvenience is so much less than the price of misalignment.
I think we underestimate the pressure, the societal pressures what a lot of people, as well as not wanting to hurt your partner or go through a heartbreak, because I think it's sometimes harder to be the person breaking up with someone, but I think we don't. I think we mourn the loss of the life we had planned, sometimes more so than the actual relationship. So it's like we had all these plans together. We're buying this house, we were moving here, we were going to have, can we
had kids? Things picked out. For a lot of people, I think they struggle more with the idea of, well, what the fuck do I do now? Like, literally, we've broken up, we move out of our how what do I do? Like the change and identity also changing identity, and what sort of advice do you have to someone that's really struggling in a breakup, Like maybe deep down they know that this isn't their penguin, it's not the
right person for them. What can you tell someone to sort of introspectively think to get at their head around the fact that it's going to be okay out there that chapter is not necessarily for you, but it's another path.
Well, I think this idea too, that if you're not together, there's still somehow the one inherently just by the circumstances of the relationship, they're not and you know, the at least not in that version of each other. You know, Like, if people have broken up, that breakup is serving them to get to whatever place they need to be to
possibly be together again. But even then, this idea that I'm going to change to get them back, it's still tying change to an outcome rather than change to wanting to create a desired feeling, which is regardless of the outcome. I'm okay, And I think that's one of the greatest gifts of breakups is they create space that often we
haven't felt ourselves. You know, when we see this when people go from relationship to relationship, they don't actually allow themselves to feel the space that really is where people complete them, you know. And I think when we lose things, not only do we realize the weight of them, but I think we often also realize cost. And you know, when someone says to me, I lost my partner and
they took everything. I don't mean financially, because that can often be true, but like emotionally, I always asked them, like, what did you give them that they can take with them, you know, like get it back? Like that's the gift of it, right, Go get your shit back too, You go steal.
The dog's back. Yeah, your fucking cast house.
And I think that's what breakups. But I would say any grief does is it doesn't allow us to run from it. Like it demands that we listen. It demands that we recognize that. You know, even this idea that when something ends that the story is no longer available, not in the way that we had imagined. However, the
story is fully available. And if you recognize like you're the writer, the director, the producer, the casting director, you're all the things, then you're really where where we are normally disempowered through relationship, By losing relationships that are inherently disempowering, we are empowered. We see like we get to decide what this relationship ending means for me. I honestly don't know a more potent vehicle for transformation than a breakup,
especially one that's so readily available to us. You can get ghosted by someone you spent a week texting with, and that can devastate you. What a gift, What a gift that pain is when it reminds you that you've forgotten about yourself.
Sometimes when people are single, they can go through more heartache and more. I guess it's like perpetual breakups and people in a relationship because you're constantly finding these Like you just said, you might just be texting for a week, it doesn't work out. You might date for two months doesn't work out, three months doesn't work out. Some people are going through an emotional emotional turmoil or a breakup
like twelve times a year. I really want to make it clear to those people that you don't have to have been in a long term relationship to feel that pain and feel like you're not recovering and you can't learn something about yourself.
Do you think it's like compounding small breakups? It's almost like small heartbreaks, But all of that, like compounding rejection, can add up to feelings. It compounds on your feelings of self worth. I think for some people as well.
Yeah, I mean even though I you know, it doesn't mean we can't be disappointed when something doesn't work out. It's just are we left empty? Right?
Like?
Am I left empty? Am I struggling with thoughts? Am I enough? Like? Did they not choose? Because what it brings up is an unhealed perception we have about ourselves, you know, like if so many of us in relationship stay in relationships where we don't feel prioritized, we don't feel chosen, we don't often even even feel safe, both
psychologically and perhaps even physically. Often that's because as children we learn that that's familiar unreliability and a partner totally normal, lying, cheating, all that stuff totally normal, you know, and so we have to anytime we keep experiencing repeated patterns as adults, you can sure as hell put your finger on the fact that it comes from a conditioning as a child. And so what it does is if I'm drawn to people who are unavailable, who are liars, who are any
of those things, it's because I'm seeking something. I'm seeking probably to finally be enough to be prioritized, to be understood for them to change. So Ana, I'm this Maracu, I'm so beautiful, I'm so everything that they're going to change for me. And really, you'll continue to experience heartbreak until you recognize that the adult in you actually has to provide you those things, and then you will not be drawn to people who are unreliable or any of that,
because you'll have given those things to yourself. You'll have set the standard, and then those things aren't even attractive anymore,
like to someone who has healed. The draw to unavailability the first sign of not only if you recognize it just the way they text or the way they talk, but you feel it because you're integrated, and in the integration you're intuition, which you had to leave to survive in childhood because you can't leave your house when you're four that has been welcomed back, and it's when that's present then and then you're not even drawn to it.
You're like swipe left by, like I don't even I don't even have time for that shit.
It's interesting you say this, And we've spoken a lot on this podcast around codependency. And there's something that you put on your Instagram just the other day and we wanted to talk to you about it. You wrote, your level of self love sets the bath for every other relationship in your life. How do you see someone's own self work, like how we see ourselves impacting codependency in a relationship or impacting codependent tendencies?
Yeah, I mean codependency is challenging because it's sort of like the normalized way of relating that we watch. We've evolved to be codependent, which is different than interdependent, you know, And I think that's it's important to differentiate, Like codependency is really I need you to validate that I'm worthy, right, Like I need to try to fix your shit, to try to get you to stop the addiction, to try to get you to change I carry the world always
being like, well, no one thinks about me? What about me? But meanwhile we're the one existing in a world where everyone is more important than us. That quote is from Terry Cole, psychotherapist, and really the idea being that if you set the standard for the behaviors for yourself, if you say this is why. One of the greatest healings of things like trauma is there's a saying that the opposite of trauma is choice. And one of the ways that we can begin to trust ourselves is by first off,
just making our bed every morning. I'm going to make my bed every morning, and then we do it every morning. And what that says is when I make a promise to myself, I show up. And it sounds so simple, and it is, but it's so important because it is those little, consistent, broken promises to oneself that says, when shit hits the fin I actually don't have my own back.
And so the healing of codependency is first learning who you actually are separate from other people, right, Like it's creating sovereignty right And like so many of us in relationship, we like the shit our partner likes, even though we don't actually even like it.
That is so true.
Or you see people who almost like get into new relationships and they adopt all the things that their partner likes, like they become they become like a mini version in some ways of their likes and wants and hopes and dreams and aspirations, which you know is quite different to where they were six months ago, Like.
I honestly love rock climbing as of yes so.
Much, Yeah, it's my favorite.
And you see that, like it's almost like you're absorbing that other person or what they want with their life, and you become an accessory to that.
Such a great word, absorb, because in a way, you're right right, like I'm starting to adopt your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, not recognizing or respecting them as separate. It doesn't mean we can't find an interest through the people we are in a relationship with. It's just like, are you authentically actually drawn to that thing you say you like? Are you pretending that you like foods you don't like? Are you pretending that you want to like restaurants you
don't like. To heal codependency is to begin to be conscious about what values are you living your life by what standard are you setting for yourself? Like if you don't have reverence and admiration for who you are as a human like self love is thought, you know, and surely true is things like bubble bass and chocolate and spas and all that awesome shit. And it's so much deeper than that. It is the consistent choices I make in each moment. Do they say to me, I love me,
I have admiration for myself. And if you can set that standard, anyone who doesn't hold it will just be lowering your bar. And codependency is lowering your bar to fit somebody else in. And we, I think can often do that. We're like yeah, but they just say it was one small red flag.
We do a segment on every Thursday and it's called ask Guncut where people right in their relationship questions and we do our best to answer them. A very common question that we receive and something that's like a very uh, it's just a very common theme to relationships is somebody who has been in maybe not so healthy relationships or toxic relationships, and there's been that volatility that like you know, really high highs, really low lows, and then they just don't.
Every time they start dating after that, they just don't feel the connection or they just don't feel like, you know, what I have with this person isn't as strong as what I had with my ex. And they're the nice people are boring. Yeah, the nice people are boring. They're comparing that volatility. What advice would you have for someone in that situation or feeling like almost like that trauma bonding and that toxicity is where they find excitement in relationships.
Well, first off, compassion for where that comes from, you know, and compassion for self. That's what I mean, is like that person being able to say, like, what a beautiful level of awareness do identify I'm still drawn to people that aren't necessarily good for me. That also shows you when someone says I can't help who I have chemistry with, as if chemistry is this thing that's always good for us, right, like that what we're drawn to. If it's not healthy,
then we know. I like to say that our picker might be broken, you know, and so you got to fix your picker, which sounds close to packer, but you know what I'm saying, fix your dick, fix your just fix your fix your Dick, what's really going on is from a nervous system perspective, they are confusing dysregulation with arousal, and that can often occur because of the extreme extreme emotion that occurs in volatility, on reliability, all that kind of stuff, And if you think about it, a lot
of the time, what happens then is people have sex and then the feeling of not being chosen or not being safe gets treated by a rousal. So it's much like a drug, like any drug that we do to escape pain, and we just stay in that cycle because when we're in relation or going on a date with someone who's calm, who actually prioritizes us, who texts us when they say they're going to who's reliable, we're like, yeah, but that's fucking not sexy, Like I don't want to
bang this person. What we're really not comfortable in is actually being in a regulated state. We're not comfortable in the calm and so my advice to them would be to seek something like sematic therapy, that's what working on
your nervous system is called. And even beginning to learn things like breath work ways to regulate cold showers are actually a really incredible way to learn how to regulate, because when you even just put the end of your shower for fifteen to thirty seconds on cold, what you're observing is your bodies say you're going to die from the gold, but you're not. You're totally safe. You're in
a shower right. What you're starting to do is be able to observe your body's experience separate from what you know is true, and it begins to make you the observer of your nervous system response. But breath work and stematic therapy, you can work with a therapist and you can move that very quickly, and what you'll see is all these patterns that you couldn't make sense of or all these people, you won't even be drawn to dysregulation anymore. Anyone can change any behavior in relationship.
This is like music to my ears. I have my first breath work class booked in a couple of days, so I'm expecting to walk out of that a new person. I'll let you know, I'll give you trade at home to a cold shower.
You really will, you know what I'm at that.
Point, you know where you're like, I'll just try anything, like come at me, so I'm just going to go do some breathing for a while, come out a better person. But I want to talk to you about something that I don't actually know quite how I feel about it yet, So I'm going to ask the expert. I want to talk to you about timing, divine intervention. Do we believe in right and wrong timing? So our relationship doesn't work out, they have to move to England, Like I'm sorry, I
have to go for my job. I love everything about you, but this can't work out. And then can you say where each other's soulmate? But it's bad timing? Is that bad timing or is that just they're not the one? There's no such thing as right and wrong timing?
Well, yeah, you know, all that language saw me the one. I'm always mindful to not put them as singular because when you put them as singular, you don't live in an abundant experience, you know, if you believe that someone even in the first five dates or first date. I hear people say I think I met my husband or my wife or whatever I said with.
The future, and that's always ended fucking terribly. I've just done it twice, and that's not the one I'm marrying.
Right, Like, it's like, did you stop saying it? At least that's at least there.
Yeah, I've experienced exactly that two people in my life on first dates. I'd been like, this is the guy I'm going to marry, and it was a shit show over a relationship. And then my now.
Husband almost I didn't have that straight away, and it's the most calm and sensible and like reliable relationship I've ever had.
Yeah, isn't that beautiful? That shows you how much the prison language can be, right, Like, if I say someone's the one, then what happens if they're not? And I've made this declaration not just to myself but maybe to my friends, And so even exploring that of like when we use language like that, then we're not free to leave.
We're not free to not explore that thing. And so, well, if it's bad timing, they're the right person for that experience, you know, Like if it didn't work out, is the idea that they're the one that could be the one that teaches you that you shouldn't use that language so that you don't put all your eggs in one basket, right, Like I always think wherever any relational experience is sticky, there's a story or something that needs to be healed,
you know. You think like whenever we're triggered, there's something that hasn't been healed. And this idea that I always consider that if something doesn't work then is they're inherently the wrong person. They're just inherently the wrong person for what we're pursuing, which is perhaps a relationship with someone for the rest of our lives, and they are always the pathway to that person.
You've got to have a bit of faith in the moment that what's happening is leading you to where you're supposed to be. Well, the lesson you really.
Have no other choice, Like the other choice is that the universe has had happen in my life is actually not right, and so I need to try to make it right. As if I know better than my soul than the universe, then the lessons that are trying to work through me, as opposed to like just letting go of the tight grip to stories have to be the way we want rather than the way they are. And when you're not accepting how reality actually is, you're fighting it, which means you're going to be in pain.
What about this whole notion of like circling back on a relationship. So if the relationships ended and maybe there is something that's unresolved about it, giving it another go in the future, if you know, circumstances are different. But you know, I think that some people do hold on for hope that that relationship with that person's going to come back into their life.
Well timing, I mean, I speak it from personal experience. My current fiance was my past relationship, you know, and we call that relationship one point. Oh you know that in hindsight now you know, we call it a sacred pause. And we took a sacred pause in our relationship. The relationship itself when it ended was over, you know, like
I was ready to move on and move forward. And I just knew from my own personal experience that unless you close the door fully, you're not even open to any sort of advanced state of the next relationship, even if it's them, you know. So it really made me
start to think about a few things. One that when we use words like my heart is broken, I really realized through the heartbreak that I had in that ending, was that my heart was actually wide open, it wasn't broken, like a broken heart is one that doesn't love again. I think that's just really important that recognizing that the pain you experience in heartbreak is actually validation that you love and like, what a beautiful thing, although a painful truth.
The other side is using words like get back together. I really started to see it, like, actually, you should never have to go backwards to get into any relationship. You should never have to turn down your volume for them to be the same person they were when you were in the preview version of the relationship is a failure of the pause, is a failure of the space.
So really, I think about it getting together and moving forward, and if you're truly in your growth and learning from your breakup and in your zone and surfing and you know whatever, it might be your flow states, and you're just believing every day, you know, you wake up and you say, I believe in miracles. They happen every day, Like, let's be honest, they do. You can meet your person
in any moment, literally any moment. But if you're so busy needing them to look like your X or be your ex, you're actually not seeing the many many thousands, millions of possibilities that are actually trying to look you in the eye. And so that is where the prison of a story needing to be a certain way can really keep reliving in our experience, not seeing that something greater is actually trying to meet you when you're ready, and that might be them, and you won't care when
they show up if it's them or not. And I think that's that beauty of being able to both have hope because I'm not saying don't hope that it might be them, hope that whatever version of the relationship you really desire has perhaps them in it, but you're totally open to it not being them.
I like the change in perception, the change in terminology that you just mentioned, getting together moving forward as opposed to getting back together, like you're going back to this stagnant place. I think that's really important. I mean perception. We all know the way we speak to ourselves and the way what we put out to the universe is super super important. But one quick question about your fiance was that, if you don't mind me asking, is that the fiance that you called it off with or is
this a relationship? After that, you then took the pause and then you got back together with.
No, No, definitely not the same. Yeah, we're sixteen years later. I got here, I got engaged, and you know that's so it was fifteen years later from that previous engagement. And you know, it's so beautiful about experiencing asking someone to marry me again. Was how different it felt that I was the right person, which is so interesting because previously I would have said my previous partner wasn't the
right person, but she taught me so much. You know, my previous fiance is the one who put me on the path to have these conversations to think about things. And that's why, even if is the timing wrong or are they not the one, you look in hindsight and you can connect the dots and you say, what a beautiful journey when we're open.
I think it's something that you've touched on a little bit. But also it's such a big question that people have. How do you know that someone is the one? How do you look at that person and go, yes, this is the person I'm going to spend the rest of my life with.
Even the idea of the one, you know, I always think of it as many ones, like there are many ones out there. I had a friend who said to me ones that exact thing about the plural being important, but also who is willing to work it out with you? That's how I see it, you know, like, are they kind? Are they generous? Those are the two qualities when they look at the research in hindsight, Where are the most important qualities in really long lasting relationships, fulfilling relationships? Also?
Are they willing to repair, like to sit to not make us sit in pain? You know, and we prioritize repair in the relationship. I would say the one is someone that you have admiration for, you're attracted to, you have respect for. Those are all the really important sort of pieces that need to be there for the foundation. Do you have fun together? Are you curious about each other's worlds? Alexander Salmon Doctor Alexander Salman says that in your lifetime you will be married many times, and it
might be to the same person or not. You know this idea that the marriage is always changing, the relationship is always changing because you are and because they are. And when you start to think of it that way, because we often look at our long term partners and we're like, I can finish your sentences like you haven't had a new shit happen in a long time, like kind of bored. And it's right. And it's often because
we stopped being curious about their world, you know. Like I got home from a t yesterday and simon fiance and asked her questions. For gosh, and the two days i'd been gone, she had so many things happen, like so many realizations about things, so many things she'd learned. And when you look at your partner from that space of what can I learn from you? And is there a mutual feeling back? I think that's so different. You know.
I think of relationships so differently than I did when I was engaged the first time, because I see them now as this beautiful, sacred space that's so important.
Well, I think a pretty big tell if they're the one or not is if you're about to marry them and you google, how do I know if they're the one?
Yeah? Yeah, that's a very good It's easy.
Okay, I gotta said that when you said you know that you were googling?
Are they the one? I reckon?
There are so many people out there who have been at that fork in the road or felt these feelings of anxiety in a relationship, and that is the Google search, like how do you know if they're the one?
You know? And for an answer, hoping for Google.
To literally just be like this is it, this is your But there's so much more to unpack in that, And.
Well, this is why Marx does what he does, because he googled I either one didn't get his right answer, so now he's like, I will be the answer for everyone else.
I also think that if you're ever at a point in your relationship where you're googling are they the one?
They're not? They're probably not the fuck and one. That's a pretty good litmus test.
I think the you know, the important question If someone had asked me, then would your growth be staying or leaving? My growth would have been leaving. And I think that's important for people to what is abandoning yourself staying or leaving because sometimes you know for a lot of people, and I would say, what it's true for me then, but I just didn't know is I was actually super terrified of someone loving me. So she wanted you know, she is an incredible woman, and that's what was so hard?
Is that? Like, why do I have this really incredible woman and I don't want to be in a relationship with her, you know, so I think you know you're right when you're starting to ask that, I would say that you're in a beautiful beginning to a journey of understanding. It's not a bad thing to google something like that or ask that question. It actually means you care deeply
about what you're giving your choice to. You know, what a beautiful gift it is to be chosen by someone and to choose, like when we recognize the value of that, like I'm going to be with you over anybody else that I could choose. Gosh, when you recognize the power like that, what like, then you might do the work a little more too. You know, you don't let your shit slide as much as.
My sister and I would call it the front porch tests. Just if you think, can you picture yourself in like fifty or sixty sitting on the front porch next to someone in silent having to tea, having a little chat, having a giel. Can you picture yourself with them on the front porch in that amount of time? That's what we always say, And I don't like, I don't know
where we got that from. And I don't know if that's too deep or that's probably setting our standards PEP, But yeah, I mean you can take you can use that if you want. Try about Brittany Hookly.
I love it. That's going to be a I'm going to share that one.
I wanted to ask you a little about in your very first engagement and people like, no, no, no, it's you know, you're just just scared to get married. This idea that maybe men are more commitment phobic than women. How do you see commitment as in like the whole conversation around
like there are a commitment phobe in a relationship. Do you see it being more a male issue than a female issue, or being more a gendered thing, or do you think that we've just kind of lumped men into the same basket and been like, well, men, we have commitment issues. Women have other issues, but commitment phobic seems to be a more like gendered specific problem.
Yeah. I agree. It certainly has been more assigned to men. In the research, women actually get more bored of monogamy faster. So that shows you how much our cultural messaging is so different than our actual experience. Yeah, you know, like when I consider a fear of commitment, because I think, regardless of someone's gender, that is a very common feeling
afraid of closeness. I started to write about that recently because I was thinking, it's not actually that people are afraid of commitment, it's that they're afraid of what commitment has brought to them in their past heartbreak, betrayal, and you know, that really being likely framed by our childhood but also as adults. You know, like I was terrified of commitment because I thought it meant me abandoning myself.
I thought it meant a woman leaving me, cheating on me, lying to me, and I didn't know all those stories were living below my fear of commitment. It was so easy to just label me with that. And you know, when I said to people I was scared to get married or I was feeling anxious, that reply was so dismissive to me. It felt I was angry because I thought, here, you want men who speak about their emotions and express them, and you just told me that I don't actually feel
the way I told you. I feel. That pissed me off, you know, and that it really did, and it really made me want to understand it on a deeper level. And so I think fear of commitment is really fear of closeness. It's a fear of closeness because closeness has led to pain. So you know, it's really people express in three ways in relationship. One the express secure and secure would be my partner's needs matter as much as my own, not less than my own, not more than
my own. And the other one would be my partner's needs matter more right, and that would be I'm afraid of space, I'm afraid of distance, and the other one would be I'm afraid of closeness. You know, in an attach that's really attachment style, secure versus anxious, I'm afraid of space and versus avoidant, I'm afraid of not having space.
It's so fascinating, though, that we end up in relationship with the person who if we're afraid of space, they're the ones who need space, and so when they need space, it triggers us. And so you could see how that perfect sort of the universe loves to put us with those people so we can deal with our shit.
Mark, I have a question for all the single people, and I was I was turning with a friend about this just a couple of days ago, dating fatigue for these people, and I've been there, Like, trust me, I was there, I'm probably gonna be there again soon when you just are like I can't do it anymore or it's so soul crushing, I'm exhausted, I'm sick of going to meet people. I'm sick of telling my story, I'm sick of being rejected, saying no, starting over. Then the
feelings that come with it. Am I ever going to be the one? Why aren't I enough? Why aren't they picking me? I feel like it can be like a snowball effect, and then we hit this point where we're like, fuck it, I'm done, I'm not dating again. And we call that dating fatigue. What's your advice around that? Do you encourage being like cool, take some time off, just relax,
get back into it. Do you encourage people to keep pushing through because the one's not going to burst into their room, fall on their lap and say let's get married. What's your advice around it?
First off, if the one does that, that's probably kind of creepy. They're a sociopathic then they're nuts.
Red flag.
Yeah, I do think there's a lot of value in honoring your feeling of fatigue, because really what it's saying is it's informing you that the way one is doing it is not productive or in alignment in some way.
You know.
I'd say, if you're getting thoughts or feelings of like why never me? Why is no one's that's actually really important information because it shows you where you go into victim. When you know, when you're dating someone and they have that energetic it's pretty hard to choose, you know, Like who wants to go on dates with people who are constantly MOPI? You know, it's not you're not leaving empowered, you know. I think a lot of we don't do a often do audits of our lives to say what
choices am I making that give me energy? And dating should be fun? Like dating actually should be a fun process. It's the stories we tell ourselves around dating and also often recognizing that we don't realize we even have the choice. I remember working I've worked with lots of people who would say, oh, so, like I don't really want to go on another date with them, but I went and I was like, why why would you do that?
Like?
And she was I remember one client saying, so I don't have to go on a second date if I don't want.
To do it.
I was like, no, oh my god, but what a waste of one's time. But also, you know where did that story come from? And I think there is an important shift of mindset that has to happen. That dating can be such an empowering and healing process because I get to see where are my boundaries? Where are they not? Where do I go on dates that I had a
feeling earlier I shouldn't have done that? So if it's starting to exhaust you, then I would actually look again at your strategy, you know, and who are you swiping right and left? You can you get better at that? I've looked at people use their fucking app and I'm like, how do you swipe right to that? Like I couldn't even believe it. There's so many red flags, like I just want to knock their phone out of their hand,
you know. And I think if we've never taken time to actually learn how to date, you learn how to date, how to be good at it, how to actually you know again, you have to get to know what you value. You have to get to know what you're actually looking for. A lot of people say I don't know. I'm like, bullshit, you know below that I don't want to declare something
because I don't want to be disappointed. And then when I meet someone and they go, I'm not really looking for anything serious, and I'm like, oh, neither am I bullshit. You're just saying that so that you can maintain a connection to avoid actually having to sit in the discomfort of yourself. Which if you could do that, if you can sit in the uncomfortable space of yourself, then no longer will you be drawn to people who you're trying to fill that space with.
You're like, I don't want dessert me either. You don't want that dessert? Order it.
But also like on this, I think that there's so many people who they're frightened to ask questions in early on in dating, So you end up in these situationships that like go on for forever because they're too scared to ask what do you want?
What are we where are we heading the questions that we want?
You do you like things that would put some definition around whatever is happening and whether you're actually compatible. We're too scared of the answer because we don't want the rejection that comes with the answer to ask the question in the first place, and a lot of people will avoid it, and so therefore they become more invested in something that they really shouldn't have been invested in the first place because there was a misalignment.
Yeah, the whole irony of that that I'm afraid to declare these things or get information about these things because I'm afraid of them maybe not being the one or feeling rejected when not declaring them or asking them is actually rejecting oneself. It's not saying I trust that I can find what I'm looking for and that I'm worthy of that thing. So every time you don't ask that question,
to keep the one, which by definition, they're not the one. Like, by definition, if they don't want what you want and they don't choose you back, they're just not the one. Like that, the qualifier of someone being your person is that they want you to be their person. Like, that's so simple, spoil life.
If they don't want you, then not a height.
And that's so civil. I say to people, like, don't just give someone the title allow them to become it, because what that means is that you're being discerning in the process, and you're you're allowing yourself to observe the connection if you live in a world where connections are scarce, which is only true if you believe it, then you're going to hold on to anything even if it is not a good fit. And every time you hold up space with not a good fit, you don't create space
for the right fit. You waste your time in a world trying to make the story different than it actually should be, which, to be fair, the pain of that awareness is to wake you up to that truth.
I'm comany with a hard question, Mark, Let's do it fireworks and explosions versus the slow burn. Do you think you have to have that explosion on the first date in this like chemistry that's all consuming, or do you think you can have a really nice time You don't feel that overwhelming sense of spark, but you're like, well it was nice, he's really nice. He wants what I want, they want what I want. Should I go on a
second day? Do you think do you believe in the slow burn as much as you do the fireworks?
I mean, I would choose slow burn all day, you know, I think the reason I say that is one. Your nervous system isn't hijacked, so you're actually able to observe and make good decisions. Ideally. I remember listening to Alice and Armstrong, who's teacher. I remember she said, if it's a ten out of ten in chemistry, it's a no. And I remember thinking to myself, Well, that doesn't make
any sense. That's total bullshit. Now I totally actually understand that because the real haywire chemistry is usually a trauma bond. You know, to be fair, it's usually like a distraction from actually getting to the thing we want. And I think those are the ultimate tests. It's like, are you going to say no to what you know? Is an old pattern to sit in the space of discomfort of
trusting that what you actually want will arrive. And what's beautiful about that moment of lingering longer than you ever have is you begin to arrive within your own heart, within your own body, the slow burn. What's nice about it, at least, I'd say the one qualifier to it is that you need to be I did about the next date. That was my only qualifier when I went on a date. Am I excited to get to know them more and to go on another date. If that wasn't there, then
I just didn't pursue it. And I also made a rule change because I used to operate chemistry forward first, and I remember having this awareness when I was doing a meditation of just like, wow, I've used intimacy to decide if someone is a good fit rather than feeling like they're actually a great fit. To know that the next step is intimacy like that, Actually the qualifier is that there is something to then go there rather than I'm going there to figure out if there is something.
That switch for me was everything because finally it wasn't like a horny, heartbroken teenager man in his early man is a strong term in his early twenties, with frosted tips and a puka shell necklace. It was I would love to say frosted TIBs right. It was actually an adult starting to date. That was a big transitionary moment for me.
Mark, you have an exceptional podcast of your own. It is aptly called the Mark Groves Podcast. Who has been your favorite guest that you have had on the podcast?
Oh? Wow, gosh, that's a hard question.
I mean, we haven't been on that yet so otherwise that would be the answer.
Yeah, yeah, we need to ring that on. I'd say, it's a tie. Can I give a tie?
Get whatever you want?
Well, it's your rules, your show, I would say. Zach Bush was one of my favorite who's a physician who studies the microbiome and soil, but originally started as an internist and impalliative care. And that was transformative for me because he talked about the relationship to the earth and viruses and the microbiome and just how everything in the universe is working together with us. That was just I've had him on twice and they're both my most popular
episodes for people. And then I'd say one of the most powerful speakers I've heard in the last he's been a big teacher of mine for the last couple of years. Is a psychotherapist and he calls himself a soul activist and his name is Francis Weller, and he just has When I was going through the breakup with Kylie, I found his words actually through her. She shared them with me and I went on an adventure and he talked about how the soul likes to keep us on the
edge of darkness. That's where it dwells, the power of darkness, that our heart's beat in the dark, that the decay of leaves is the transition of birth. And I needed to hear all of those things because I felt like I was swimming in the heaviness of pain and it was really teaching me that pain was just so transformative. And it was the first time I'd ever gone through a breakup sober, so I was forced to sit through all these things and that ended up that breakup ended
up being one of the greatest gifts. And he has one line that I just love where he says that we spend our lives trying to seek belonging, to finally be chosen, and at some point we have to become the place of welcome. And that really to me was like I spent so much of my life wanting to be chosen, wanting to be loved, wanting to be enough, And it was through that breakup where I feel like turned around finally and wanted to become a place of welcome for other people. And so, yeah, his work has
been really transformative for me. That's a great question, by the way, Thank you.
I think that's something that almost everyone will resonate with is the feeling of wanting to be chosen and wanting to be the one and wanting to be loved. And I think that so many people going to relate to that. But Mark, I just feel like I just had an amazing therapy session. I've been walked on every word from the very beginning. I can't thank you enough for finally coming on the podcast. You were a very difficult man to get ahold of. But hey, you're very indo.
I'm so grateful to be on here and to finally have made it on. You know, I'll blame it on you, Yeah, blame.
It on We kept on postponing. We're so busy.
Speaking of responsibility, for anybody who wants to find your Instagram, can you share all your handles so that they can connect with you or follow you along listen to your podcast?
Where can I find you?
Yeah? So, first off, honestly, thank you so much for bringing me on and just trusting me with your people who trust you that that really means a lot. You can find me on Instagram at Create the Love. You can really find me on anywhere at Create the Love. And then I also have another Instagram handle called it'smart Groves where I talk more about psychologically what's been happening in the world for the last couple of years. And my podcast you can find anywhere obviously not egoically named
after me, just for simple simplicity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I have lots of courses on Create the Love where people can work on codependency, they can work on dating, they can work through their breakup. There's lots of stuff.
I just want to finish with a suggestion. I feel like you need to have your own little segment of like meditative stories or sleep stories on like the car map or something, because your voice is so soothy and I feel so relaxed listening to you talk. So that's my suggestion for you. I want to see you in the next felve months.
I love it.
Thanks Mark, It has been awesome having you on the podcast.
Thank you. You are an absolute legend.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
You know that we never finish our episode without our suck and our sweet, our highlight and our low light of each and every week, our suck being the worst thing that's happened and the sweet thing the best. Brittany Hockley, you can kick it off. What has been your stuck for the week?
Okay, my suck's actually pretty funny. It's not a real stuck, but it's funny. I went out on the weekend single now going out trying to meet our friends. She's on the dating apps, she's living her best single life, trying to meet people in the wild. This girl all comes up to me and she grabs me on dance floor and she was like, oh my god. It was like really loud. She's like, oh my god. I thought she was gonna say like I love the podcast and I was.
Like hi, and she was like, my friend loves the podcast.
And I was like oh okay, and I was like cool. She's like she's over there. She will die if she can meet you, and I was like yeah, of course. So she goes and gets his girl and she brings her back and she throws it to me and looks at me, and I was like, hey, thinking she loved me in the podcast because that's what she said. And this girl just looks at me blankly. And then the girl looks at the other girl, and then the other girl looks at me, and I was like hi, and
she goes, am I missing something? Oh, and I was like, I am so confused and stitch up. I was like, I'm saying so confused right now. And she's like, what am I missing? And the girl's like it's Brittany and she was like what. And the girl leans in and she's like.
From the I could hear it going the podcast and she's going what podcast? She's like life on cut She's like, you love them? And the girl was like, what are you talking about? And it was the most awkward situation of my life. She looks at me, she goes, I listened to podcasts no idea, hear why?
And I was like, I don't know what's happening right now, but I'm going back to so I don't know. And the girl looked at me and she goes, I don't know what's happening. I'm so sorry. So I still don't know if this girl actually was a fan and then just freaked out, or if or if the friend got it really mistaken, but it was the most awkward interaction of my life. I was like, Okay, this is this is a stitch up that I'm not I'm not subscribing to this. I didn't did into this situation. Why why
is this happening to me? And I was allorked embarrassed. I was like, oh, why mine? That was my suck? My suite of the week is uh, your suck was going to be that Delilah vomited in your brand new rug. We literally got a brand new rug.
Good.
I know, I know you did, but I write this shit in my note so that I don't forget. Britt got a brand new spanking rug in our studio room. You want to see it on our Instagram stories if you follow us. It is so nice.
And then the day, literally the day that the rug arrived, the very day that we ever recorded, we were in there and we were recording an ask gun cut and Delilah sits in the middle of the fucking rug and she starts going and I was like, I think your dog's about to cop.
Up a hairball. She doesn't cough up a hairball. She projectile vmos, the amount of food dog food that had grown human would vomit up if they needed to vomit. It was everywhere, And then we had to stop mid record and pick chunks of dog vomit out of the carpet and then clean it. And then Brits spread so much cleaning product in the room that I thought I
was going to fucking exphyxiate. That was the suck, But it was worse because Laura's like, you, dog's about to vomit, you know how the dog's heave for a bit, so I it was like SlowMo. I got up and ran to get her because I was like, if I can pick her up and get her out of the room in time, she can vomit on the floor. It was the one Basically she gave the dog the hind liick
maneuver and like projectiled it across the fucking rug. So I reached out and picked her up and she was mid air and I was trying to carry her out like a football, and she starts vomiting. So I made it worse because it sprayed across the whole rug. Instead of like one contained space, there were chunks and it's one of those rugs it's like really long and fluffy, so the vomit got real deep in there. So that was my suck. It was definitely a very it's a very high pile rug which is now has dog women
deeply set into it. So don't worry, brit if you ever forget what your suck is, I am here to remind you how shit your week is. Yeah. Thanks, I do have some really shit weeks, my sweet. You know what, my sweet, this week was really really simple. I had an amazing Greek meal And that sounds as silly as it can get, but that is, my sweet. I just had the best you know, when you just sit down to a meal and a wine and you're just like,
this is just like I was living. I was in a moment, I was feeling it, I was full, it was delicious. I was just like, it was really happy moments. That's my sweet.
Yeah, like good company, good food. You literally can't beat it.
Absolutely, what about yours suck?
So my suck for the week, actually, my suck for the week is very similar to the accidentally unfiltered that was told today.
So I just the other.
Day put on my Instagram how much I'm obsessed with this plant that I have. I have a plant which I thought was called poison ivy, but apparently it's called Devil's ivy, And I'm like, you've seen it in my yard, brit This big, beautiful. The leaves are bigger than your face. It is fucking amazing this plant.
I'm pretty sure you don't want poison ivy in your backyard.
I have had this Devil's ivy since I was like nineteen years old. I love it so much, Like I take such good care of this plant, and it's like one of the only plants I've been able to not only just keep.
Alive, but it has flourished in my care because it's an innocuous weed. It's actually weed. Yeah, you can't kill it. Okay.
However, so I bought online all these actually I didn't buy them, I got send them for my birthday, but I got sent plant food right like this spray spray it on the leaves, you spray it on the soil.
I've had it. It's amazing.
Yeah, all these different things that you like put into like granules you put into the soil and everything. Anyway, I was like so excited. I decided I'd go and like give all my plants around the house like this TLC. And I was like spraying my fucking plants with this
plant food around the house. And then I put the plant food down because Molly was doing something and I was like ran over to her and they put the plant food down on the bench and then I picked it back up and I walked out to my Devil's iving and I started spraying it, and I was like, why does this smell so eucalyptosy? I sprayed my like my pride and joy with house cleaning products, a natural house cleaning product that I put next to the plant
food like they are. The packaging looks identical. It is like this perfectly natural cleaning products that's full of eucalyptus oil, and I sprayed it all over my plants and is it dead? Look, it's not dead, but it's pretty unhappy, I said. The next forty five minutes, like hand washing each leaf, I was like, I'm so sorry.
Kids haven't had a bath. The kids haven't had a bath in a week, but you've just like washed your plant. I literally leaf my leaf, So that was my suck. It didn't die, but I felt very, very stupid. It is and it's definitely not as happy as what it was before it got doused in spray and wipe. And my sweet for the week is just that it was my birthday, and I'm pretty low key for my birthdays. I don't like, you know, I don't do big parties.
I don't make a big fuss about it, but I felt like the people who are important to me in my life made a big fuss of me and made me feel really really important and special.
So we had just had the most beautiful time. We went for a gorgeous dinner last night.
We had a babysitter for like seven hours and we went and had la la. I think that's why I'm in such a good mood today. And we had sex. So there's been so many great things that have been happening. Yeah, lation, congratulations. It's like you only do it twice a year. We are staying in a tiny villa and Matt's mum's staying with us, so yeah, sorry about that to my mother in law, but you know what times and to half you're going to take it weeken. Oh you did it
while while they're all in there. That's great. She's in the room next door. It's fine. We're all very close. She was there when I gave birth to Marley, so I think it's fine. She can be in the room next door. Anyway. That's too much sharing for one evening, but that is in from us, guys. We hope that you.
Love the episode. We hope that you love Mark Groves as much as we did. Honestly, he is just the most amazing man, and we hope that you've got something out of the episode and feel a little bit more empowered in your relationships.
We're not going to tell you too much, but stay tuned for next week because we have another absolutely kill episode that is bound to have you in stitches on the floor. But please keep the accidentally unfiltered and the ask Gun cuts and the confessionals and anything else that happens to you keep them sliding on into the dms on Instagram a Life un Cut podcast.
I also like that you're teasing next week's episode, but we literally have two more episodes to come out Before that episode comes out. We do have ask Gun Cut, Okay, However, I do want to make everyone aware I am taking this week's ask Gun cut off and it is Britt and Keisha doing this week's comings ask Gun Cut, so you will get a whole new perspective from someone who has lived it but is equally as unqualified as what
I am. That Kish and Britt are going to be taking the microphones and doing ask Gun cut this week and giving me a day off.
For my birthday. This is our birthday present to you. We're like, I'm going to give you one day off. That is it. I'm going to go and have a massage and a manny petty on Thursday next week. Please, if you haven't left us a review, why not do that. We haven't asked you to do that in a while,
So leave us a sneaker review five stars. Hit the follow subscribe button if you feel in a little bit extra generous, and don't forget to tell your mum, tell your dad, tell you dog, tell your friends, and share the love because we do you love.
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