The Predestination Puzzle: Unraveling a Complex Doctrine

Music. What's going on, everybody? And welcome back to the Life on 11 podcast.

This is episode number eight. Today, Jeremy and I talk about predestination and specifically the problems with predestination. So without further ado, let's take it to 11. What's going on, Jeremy? How are you tonight? I'm doing pretty good. You look like you're doing good. You're relaxing over there.

I'm very relaxed. I got my Mountain Dew right here. you're chilling out max and relaxing oh cool shooting some b-ball outside of the school yeah we could sing that whole we almost have to sing the whole song you can't stop i don't know that people want us to sing the whole song are you sure i'm pretty sure all right i'm taking a i'm taking okay all right fresh prince of bel-air one of my favorites you had a good week,

yeah it's been good yeah we're shoot i mean we're almost done with the week we're going to, Taylin State Gymnastics this weekend. That's always a good time.

So that'll be fun. Sweet. All events? You doing all events? Oh, yeah. Yeah, all events. And then we usually, we make a whole weekend out of it. So we watch all of her friends compete and root for all of them. So it's a good time. Families get together. We go have dinner and do fun stuff. It's a good time. Sweet. Good way to end the season. Good call. Good call. I like it. What about you? It's been a good week. Getting ready to celebrate birthdays next week. Twins are having their birthday.

And I think we've still got a couple weeks of soccer left. So rolling with it. No basketball this weekend. There is NBA. My Lakers. Yeah, they blew that, bro. Yeah, I know. They blew it. I know. Which is, I mean, it's regretful because they're not going to win the championship. But I don't really like LeBron. So I'm okay that he's not winning another championship. I'm okay with that. But it's all good. It's all good. And like you, you know, it's been a beautiful

week here in the old Chandelier Valley. Oh, man, the weather has been very nice. It's been fantastic. It's been absolutely fantastic. Well, we're going to dive in because we got a lot of content. We got a lot of stuff to cover tonight. A lot of food? Content. Food is content? Dude, I'm stuffed. I couldn't eat anymore. I don't believe that. Okay, I probably could. I shouldn't. What if somebody brought some maple spam in here right now? Dude, maple spam. Put it on lock right now. I'm telling you.

I'm issuing a public apology. You already did this once. Apologize again. Go ahead. Maple spam. It was amazing. It was amazing. You know, Foodline and Timberville is going to sell out of maple spam tomorrow just because of this. It was so amazing. I went to the store just to buy maple spam. That is pretty epic. I have never in my life went to a store simply to buy canned meat until last week. Yes, sir. And they didn't have it. Oh, they didn't have it? No. Oh, snap.

That's because Aaron bought it all. Probably so. He's probably selling it on the black market right now. Probably. $10 a can. Yeah, it's on eBay. But we got a lot to cover tonight. We are, we're diving in tonight. We've had some good discussions. Diving. But tonight, we are talking about the doctrine of predestination. Bum, bum, bum. Predestination. So, full disclaimer, I don't think any of us,

either one of us, are, we don't support the predestination. No. No idea i i don't i don't okay all right well we got that out of the way so that's good so if you do then now would be your chance to turn the podcast off and we'll see you next week or listen to us so you know how to how to have a conversation about how to argue with people like us oh yeah okay yeah that's fair but we are going to talk about predestination tonight and specifically,

we're going to talk about some of the problems that we see that arise yep and believing in predestination, right?

So, working definition, predestination that God has pre-willed, already willed certain things, all things, specifically for this conversation, salvation for some people and not for others, therefore saying that God has created people with an eternal destiny already determined for them before they were created is the working definition. Of predestination. Is that fair for you? Yep. Yep. The number one thing that comes to my mind when you say that is if

that's the case, why did Jesus come to earth to die for everybody's sins? Yeah. And to preach the gospel and to. Exactly. Yeah. So. Now, within. Are we done already? I think we're done. Okay. That was quick. Yeah. Okay. Continue. Sorry. It was predestined to be that choice. Oh, no, you did not. I'm sorry. Yes, you did. Okay. I like it. This is going to be good. It was funny.

A few years ago, a friend of mine, a friend of ours from church, they went to a particular, they went out of town and they went to a church and it was Calvinist in its tradition. and I won't tell you which mode of Calvinism it was, but they went to this Calvinist church. And so the next week I said something about, I said something about, you know, how was your time while y'all were gone? And he said, oh, it was good. And I said, did you go to church? And he was like, yeah.

And he told me that he said, well, we happened to end up at this Calvinist church. And I was like, nobody happens to end up at a predestined church, dude. Sorry, that was mean. Now inside of predestination, There are different modes of predestination, okay?

You have your full-fledged Calvinist reform tradition, which believes in sort of double predestination, if you will, that God has absolutely ordained one group of people for salvation and absolutely ordained another group for damnation and destruction.

Okay what if how do the Calvinist people know whether or not they're one of the predestined ones you would have to ask Calvinist, seriously that's a legit question maybe we should get one on the show like if you are if you are a Calvinist you are what if you're wrong yeah if you're if you are you believe in predestination we would love to talk to you yeah I would I would seriously love to hear 100% I would love to have that conversation we would love we would love for you to come talk,

So, Calvinism, strong predestination reform theology would say, we have no choice in salvation. It is only God's choosing. There's another mode of predestination, which is Arminianism. Arminianism has a lot of other stuff with it, too. But they would reject the kind of double mode and say that God did predestine, does predestine people, but he predestines them because he already knows what they're going to choose in the first place. So we can choose, but God knew we were going to choose.

So he predestined us for things and for salvation, knowing that we were going to choose it anyway. So so that all right so that one there i could have more conversation about, because i will not disagree that god does know the choices that everyone's going to make in their life correct i will not debate that because he's all knowing all seeing all powerful all everything, right? However, to say that that means that everyone is predestined, I'm just, I'm not buying into that.

Like, so this is kind of, this is a very simple example. Young children, as a parent, a lot of times you already know what your child is going to choose, right? Correct. You know that. Yes. But they still have to choose it, right? Yes. So, I mean, that's oversimplified. I get it. But that is where, that's how I feel. Yes. Personally. And I guess I think that God has God's best. He knows what his absolute best for us is. And I think he has a path laid out for our lives.

That is what he wants for us. And so, in a way, he has predestined a life for us. Like, I believe that God created Jess and I to be married, but we still had to choose it. Yeah. And we still have to choose to be married. And like, we could abandon that plan at any moment if we wanted to. Yeah. Don't tell Jess I said that because I don't want her to want to. No, she's good. Yeah, but she's good. So in that sense, some of that predestination down with.

So, yeah. So let's talk more. We're talking about tonight the problems with predestination. Yep. As we see them. Okay. So let's think through some of those. We outlined before the podcast like three or four. We'll see how many we get to. Oh, we're going to get them all. We're going to get them all? Okay, we're going to get them all. Yeah. The problem number one. Free will versus moral responsibility, or in other words, how can humans be morally accountable if choices are already predetermined?

Yep. And that's where, for me, that's where I do not prescribe to predestination. I think free will is a very open term. You say free will, you could say, like, we have the free will to change gravity or change time or those things, which clearly we do not. Right. However, I think free will in this sense, we're talking about moral free will, like all of your free will that you have is morally moral decisions. Correct. Like not to steal, not to cheat, not to murder, all of those things.

So for me, that's where I land on free will as far as our decision-making. Right. And not just morally. I think that there are things that when it comes to free will, I think that there are just some things that God 100% leaves up to free will. He really has no opinion on it. A classic example is a friend of mine, when Jess and I decided to get a dog, we were talking about how we were looking for a dog, and we chose Bentley, who's now our dog, who's been our dog for a long time now.

And I remember he said, like, well, did you pray about getting a dog? And my answer to him was, no, I didn't. Because I don't think, I think that God, if I want a dog, and as long as I'm going to take care of the dog and treat the dog ethically, I don't think God cares if I have a dog or a cat. Yeah. And I don't think God cares if I have a Labrador or a Labradoodle or a Schnauzer or a Wiener dog. I think that God gives me. Tara would disagree with that. She would decide.

You have to have. Have to have a wiener dog. Yeah. But I don't think God gets in the mud of some of those decisions. You just see what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I see exactly. I had never thought of it that way, but that's, yeah, I see, like. If I'm going to go buy a vehicle. How about that shirt that you're wearing today? Right. God doesn't care if I wear a green shirt or a red shirt. He probably wants me to wear a shirt. Yeah, well, I mean, most of the time. Most of the time.

Yeah. You know, if I'm going to go buy a vehicle, I don't think God cares if I buy a red Ford or a blue Ford, as long as it's a Ford, because God's a Ford man. See, we're really stepping on some toes here now. Okay, anyway. But what about white pants after labor? Yeah, God says no to that. Oh, really? Okay, all right.

Pretty sure. I didn't know that's where that came from. So anyway, so the question becomes, can someone go to hell for not choosing or not doing something that they were predestined to not do in the first place? Is that justice? No. No. No, definitely not. That's one of the problems I see. It's not, yeah. Right? I mean, simplifying it completely, literally. Okay, so we don't disagree. God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, right? Correct. Okay.

So what is the point of all of life if it was all predestined? Like, why wouldn't he just predestine everybody to go to heaven? Right. You know what I mean? Right. So like, to me, it just, everything in the Bible doesn't make sense then. doesn't, All of the stories, all of the lessons, all of the no one comes to the father except through me. Like, you know, all of those things.

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Which brings us to problem number two. Already? Well, I think these two kind of go together. Okay, okay. And that's why I'm saying it's bringing us to number two. Oh, okay. I see. Yep. The fairness and love of God. So does predestination make God seem unjust or unloving? Or in other words, why would a loving God choose some and not others? Yeah, you're right. That definitely leads into it because same thing. Like, why would he why would he do that?

Yeah, that's not the God that I know. Right. Right. Like, I think that God chooses or chose all of us for salvation. His heart is that everyone would come to know him. Yep. And so, you know, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is going to happen eventually. And I think God's heart is, is that all of us would know that now. And that's why we can say that God is love. Yeah. Because literally, literally everybody has an opportunity to say yes to Jesus.

And, and I mean, I think about that for my kids. Like I have six children. I don't, I didn't choose some of them to have opportunities that the other ones didn't. You know what I mean? Like we, we try to be just, we are not equal. We do not treat our kids equally. Yeah. But we treat our kids justly. We treat them fairly. Sounds fair. Because. Fairly. Ha ha. Because some of them, they're all different. We have foster kids in our house. We have adopted kids from our house.

We have, you know, I'm not going to treat three-year-old Olivia the same way that I treat 15-year-old Aiden. Yeah. So we don't treat them equally. We treat them fairly because our heart for all of them is their best. Yeah. And so I think that God. Well, everybody's best is different too. And so for God, like, I think that's my problem with predestination is why, like you're saying, like, why would God intentionally create people just to fail? Yeah. Yeah.

You know, and that's where you also, this is a whole nother podcast topic, so I'll just brush across the surface. Yeah. The everybody goes to heaven no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. Universalism. Exactly. So, so it's the same debate there.

Well then then what is the point of this life yeah you know so yeah but that's a whole other podcast whole other thing but that's where that thought comes from that's how you can debate against right that well and i think about like for jess and i like one of our one of our core convictions as parents with our kids is we try to never set our kids up to fail okay so we never intentionally put our kid in a position to mess up okay so like in our house we do not

ask our kids questions that we know they're going to lie to us about. Ooh, okay. Right? So we're not going to look at them and say, did you do this? If we know for a fact they did it, we just state we know this happened because we're not going to set them up to lie to us and then get mad when they lie to us. That's an excellent idea. I'd never quite thought of that. Foster training. It's beautiful. Okay. But anyway, so that's one of our core convictions.

So I think about that for God. Like, why would God create certain humans just to fail, just to give other ones a leg up? I just, I can't. Yeah, I can't prescribe to that. It doesn't fit anything that I've learned about God from the Bible, from, you know, people's experiences with God. I mean, people that have heard directly from God. I mean, that just, none of that fits for me. Yeah. Well, in most famous Bible verse in the whole Bible.

John 3, John 3, 16, right. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever. Yep. So if, if you, if you think that if you, if you go to this idea that you're predestined for salvation, then whosoever isn't whosoever. Yeah. It's not whoever believes in him. It's whoever he chose to believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But then again, back to the very beginning of the podcast, anybody that was predestined, predestined, if we're prescribing to that, how do you even know? You could live a great life and be loving and caring and live like Jesus, but if you weren't predestined, you're still not going to heaven. That just makes no sense in my mind. Well, and the challenge there too is like, what's the nature of grace? Yeah. Because predestination, if you follow that, grace is completely different.

Because grace, in my definition, is unmerited, undeserved favor from God. But if grace is only extended to some, then it's not grace anymore. You're right. It's merit. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and that's not part of it. Yeah. And it doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So, evangelism. That's the next problem. Okay. Evangelism. If the elect are already chosen, why should we do evangelism in the first place? Exactly i mean you could you could argue that there is no there's no need to go to the ends of the earth to share god's word because whether they know god's word or not they're already predestined right i mean which by the way like there are probably some like christians in some churches that would be like, thank goodness, don't have to do that.

I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true. But you're right. I mean, go to the ends of the earth. I mean, our sermon this past week was we talked some about the Great Commission, go into all the world and make disciples, right? Well, what's the point? If Bill over there is predestined to accept. I have no responsibility. Not to mention... If you're going out there and you're evangelizing, you assume that you're one of the chosen. But what if you're not?

Ooh. You know? Can a predestined person who's predestined for hell lead a predestined person for heaven? See? I mean, that's how insane this is in my mind. You know what I'm saying? Oh, my brain. That makes me hurt. But that's the thing. Like, we think we know. Right. But in that scenario, God would be the only one who knew. Yeah. And to me, that just, maybe it's like. It doesn't make sense. It's like Twitter. You get like a verified badge. Oh, good grief. Yeah. Okay. You're verified.

Bing. Yep. But I mean, but that is the question. Like, so we have absolutely, if God has chosen everyone, then we are completely off the hook. I have no need to evangelize. I have no need to practice discipleship. I have no need to teach my kids about Jesus. I have no need to do any of those things. You have no need to even be a good person. Right. You know? So, I mean, that's big. To me, that's big and that doesn't fit anything else that we've learned or that the Bible teaches.

Agreed. In my opinion. Agreed. Absolutely. Because, yeah. So yeah last well motivation is the same is also in there yeah which i mean that the same thing i mean are you motivated to do anything if you're if the choice is already made for you right like no there's no motivation to do anything different absolutely than what you enjoy doing, Which is bizarre. I mean, it's irrational. Yes, it is. It's completely irrational. This whole thing is irrational.

Yeah. If you're asking me, which you are. I am. All right, lastly. Hopefully, everybody else listening is asking us, too. Yeah. Otherwise, they've turned it off by now. Yeah. They're predestined to turn it off. Oh, God, grief. I can see this is going to be a running joke for a while. Yeah, it's going to happen.

All right, last one. Last problem, as we saw it. Anxiety, assurance, and spiritual health, which I can tell you from the guy who sits in the pastor's chair, that's real. Oh, yeah. That is real. Personal concerns of what if I'm not chosen? What does that do for you? I can't imagine looking at somebody and saying, absolutely, no matter what you do, you're going to hell. Yeah, I mean, that's just, this is borderline insanity now.

Yeah. I mean, the more we talk about it, the more I'm like, what in the world? I mean, yeah, because, but again, in that scenario, the only one who would really know would be God. Right. There's no other way for anyone on earth to know. Like, there's literally no way based on the Calvinist view. Right. Like, they could be a good person. They could be a bad person.

And so you, you, you, like, I can know, like, I am sure right now that if, if this, if this studio were to blow up, I'm going to heaven. I know that from the bottom of my heart. Yep. I trust Jesus. Yep. He's my Lord. He's my savior. I've given my life to him. Yep. I screw up daily, but I trust in him for my source of salvation. And thus, like, right now, this thing blows up. I'm good. We're good. Yeah. But if predestination is true, I can't know that for sure. Well, yeah, you have, you.

It's your flip of a coin right yeah right which kind of like to me it feels like oh well god's just kind of pulled a big okey-doke on us all right like huh thought gotcha i'm thinking about the creed creed song what's this life for you know what i mean yeah yeah you know so that i mean that's a struggle and it's also a struggle for okay god doesn't want us to live in like the state of fear and anxiety, but yet if there is no assurance, if you, if you don't know for sure,

then you're going to live. I mean, you're going to live in fear. You're going to live in anxiety. Yeah. Just know it. Like if I were to look at my, like look at one of my kids and be like, Hey, no matter what happens, no matter what you do, no matter what you choose, when you're 13, I'm throwing you out of this house.

Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Or to say, I guess predestination even takes it a step farther to say, no matter what you do, no matter what you choose, at 13, I've already decided if I'm going to throw you out of the house and I'm not going to tell you. Oh, man. You're right. That's how insane this whole thing is. Yeah. I didn't plan on saying the word insanity tonight. You've said it. I've said it quite a few times because the more we talk about it, the more it is destroying my brain.

Yeah. Okay. So let's flip this around for a second if we're saying we don't believe in predestination do you believe in fate, fate in what sense like that there are certain things that they are it's fate it's gonna happen no matter what there are things that are laid out in your life that are going to happen and there's nothing you're gonna change about them oh man. I don't know if fate is the right word. Okay.

Because I do think that all of our decisions that we make, it's almost like a pick your own story. Oh, I love this. You know what I'm saying? I love this. Like, you know, if you could go back in time, you had a choice to make. You picked this choice rather than this choice. I think your fate, so to speak, would be different depending on what choice you made. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. I mean, just, I mean, putting me on the spot here thinking about that's how I'm seeing it in my mind. Mm-hmm.

I mean, what is your thought on fate? Yeah, I mean, I think that there are the best way that I've tried to describe how I think about it is like, if you ever played like a racing game, they have checkpoints along the way. Okay, okay, okay. Like, I think that there are certain events in our lives that God has ordered in order that we would see him. There are markers along the way. Okay. And I think that we will go through those regardless.

Okay. And how we respond to those will determine the direction of our lives. But I think that there are big events and things that God has already figured out. Like, for example, for us, I think about Olivia. There's nothing that Jess and I could have done to change the fact that Olivia was born with a birth defect. Yes. And, you know, with Riley, I could say the exact same thing for us. Absolutely. And so that was going to happen no matter what. Okay. Yeah.

What led up to that and what happened after that, those were choices of our free will. Okay. I can agree with that. So that's putting it in that perspective.

That makes sense to me. Right. Yes. I can agree with that. And so I think that there are things that God's like, I need for this to happen. And it will be their choice on how to handle it. It will be their choice on if it draws them closer to me or they run farther from me. Okay. But I am ordering this to happen. Okay. And I do think that there are things, I believe in listening to the spirit of God. And I think that there are clearly times when God's spirit wants us to do something.

We still have free will, but God has an ultimate desire. So like, I don't know about you. I have, I have many times been wanting to go to, I'm going to go out to lunch. And I, for whatever reason, decide I'm going to Buffalo Wild Wings. I don't know it yet, but there is somebody at Buffalo Wild Wings that God needed me to talk to that day. I still had to choose it. Yeah. Right? But he put that in motion. You followed the nudges. Right.

Yeah. You're like, I don't know why I'm supposed to come here, but I am.

Right. or I mean even now like as a pastor like I would say at least two or three times a week I will reach out to somebody via text message or a phone call just because they're on my heart and at least one of those times they will be like you have no idea how bad I needed to hear from you today and and so I do think that there are things that God needs for us to do and if we don't do them I don't know if they go undone or God finds somebody else I still

I think that varies from situation to situation. Yeah, I would say it depends on the... But if God's speaking to my heart and saying, John, I really need you to message this person today, I still have to choose to follow that. You think about how different our world today could be. This is kind of off topic, but what you're just talking about, how different our world could be if everyone was that in tuned to what God was speaking to them, whether they understood it or not.

You might not know why you're being pushed to go to Buffalo Wild Wings until you get there and experience. And then God's like, hey, see, that's why I wanted you to go there. But just think if everybody in this world was in tune to that. Well, here's the thing. Maybe I said this in a sermon or I remember talking about this with a group of people here lately. Like someone said, like, how do you know it's the voice of God? And I'm like, I don't. But my thought is always, if it costs me nothing and

it takes me less than two minutes and I think it might be God, I do it. That's fair. Yep. Like I, if I'm driving down the road and I'm like, I should message Jeremy and tell him I'm praying for him. That literally costs me nothing. It lasts, it takes less than 20 seconds. And if it wasn't, I don't think God's going to be like, John, you should have never text Jeremy and told him you were praying for him. What a horrible thing for you to do.

Yeah, I don't think that would, that doesn't fit. Right. And so that's how, like, you know, that's how I follow a lot of those things. Yeah. And so there, there might be times that maybe God isn't telling me, maybe it's just the bad ravioli I had for dinner. I don't know. But if it costs me nothing and it takes me less than two minutes and it's going to be for somebody's good, I just do it. Yeah. Yeah, and that's a good way to look at it.

I can appreciate that. Because I would, this could get into a whole other podcast too. I would debate that. We always end up there. Most of the time, we spend more time debating over whether something is God's will or not than we would actually do in the thing. Okay, yeah, I can believe that. All right, I got to tell you one thing that's been sticking in my mind here that keeps popping up. So I don't know about you, but growing up, it was always, you heard this age of accountability.

Okay, and this could lead into a whole other podcast too. Oh yeah, it's coming. So age of accountability, I was always told like, you know, until you reach the age of accountability, which is a range, nobody would ever tell me an actual number. So it's the range of accountability. Yeah, the range of age of accountability. Anybody who, you know, say you die as a six-year-old, you're going to heaven, right? But predestination, maybe not. You know what I'm saying?

Right. But when you look at children and the innocence of children, it makes sense to me, the age of accountability, when you can understand right from wrong and you can start making your decisions based on what you've learned and your moral compass that is taught to you by your parents and all those things. So, I mean, I have a really hard, I mean, I have a hard time with predestination anyway, but when you start talking about children, I mean, that, that sounds even more ungodly or ungodlike.

Yeah. I think an age of accountability podcast probably needs to happen. Okay. All right. Because I know like my opinion on that has changed a lot in 15 plus years of pastoral ministry. Okay. My mind has changed on that a lot. Okay. And so. I'm game. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah.

In all seriousness, though, because we could do this all night, if you are listening and you are pro-predestination and you would be willing to come on the podcast, reach out. That would be a very interesting conversation. Yeah. I would appreciate the conversation, actually. And we can set it up on Zoom, so if you're not from here, we can get you in. If you're from here, we can meet up. It's not a big deal. We'll make it happen. But we would love, I mean, you've heard our opinions. Yep.

And we would love to talk to you. Yes, agreed. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

We can't end yet. We got to end with food. It always ends with food. It always ends with food. And everybody expects it. It is true. So what kind of food are we going to end with? I mean, we started with maple spam. Maple spam. It was pretty good. How about smoked bologna? Dude, if you've never smoked a bologna chub. Yeah. If you've never. We should do like a contest. Okay. And like the winner of the contest gets to come have smoked bologna chub with us.

You're, you're really, you're really counting on that. Somebody would actually want to come spend time with us. I think they would really. Yeah. We'll have them on the podcast. You get to be a guest. We'll give you a smoked bologna sandwich. Okay. Yeah, and if you want to, you can spend time with us. Well, they want to. Okay. Unless like our wives win. Wait a minute, say that one more time? Unless our wives win. They might not want to spend any more time with us. That's fair.

Smoke bologna chub. Smoke bologna chub. Shout out to the boys down at Fat Boys Barbecue in Broadway. Yes. The first time I had a smoked bologna chub. Yep. And it changed my life. Yes. Yes. But now we have smoked multiple bologna chubs. And made some barbecue bologna burnt ends. Yeah. Let me tell you. This is the delicacy that we have. We smoked a bologna chub. It goes on potato bread with the smoked bologna. Yep. Barbecue sauce. Homemade barbecue sauce. Special sauce. Special barbecue sauce.

Martin's potato chips. Yep. And a piece of government cheese. What kind of cheese did you just say? Government cheese. You mean government cheese. Music. All right. All right. And I think we've given them enough. Good night. And that's a wrap for this week's Life on 11 podcast. As always, we hope that you will subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your feeds from. You can follow us on our social media channels by searching at Life on 11 podcast.

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