They can explain the lousy paperwork, the lousy database. They can blame the nameless, faceless contractors for stuffing everything up. If you leave officers and public servants in charge of.
Property as they call it in the police.
Force, specifically in charge of guns, drugs or cash, there is always the change that human nature being what it is, that the rats might start to nibble at the property, the rats in the ranks. I'm Andrew Ruhle, and this is life and crimes. We often circle back to the subject of guns. We mentioned them the other day in regards to an old time heist of handguns in South Melbourne.
But I have to say that some things don't go out of fashion, and that crooks have been keen on pinching guns, obtaining guns, buying guns on the black market, selling guns, and using guns and waving them around it other people since about the time of the gold rushers
at the very least, and nothing much has changed. Despite the fact that we now have pretty tough laws about all guns, especially handguns, it has not hosed down the enthusiasm among some people for owning them or obtaining them without the requisite licenses and so forth, and that has led to a situation where gun dealers come under pretty justified scrutiny because obviously there are a lot of gun
dealers out there. Some of them will be known to potential gun thieves, some of them will be known to criminals who want to obtain black market weapons. Some of them will be known as gunsmith's or useful people at repairing guns so that people can bring guns to them to repair, and so on and so forth. So we've got a situation which, to some extent has been open to exploitation by some elements. It would appear, according to some people, that wroughts and alleged raughts happen on both
sides of the law. And so I'm going to tell a story here that has been published in some form in the Herald's sun. If it's proven that seized and surrendered guns and ammunition have quote vanished unquote from Victoria Police's grungy storage warehouse in the north somewhere, it won't
be a surprise. The public has heard similar scandals before, such as the disgraceful episode in which Bent detectives stole seized drugs and precursor chemicals from a police storage unit to sell to favorite criminals Back in the nineteen nineties. That racket ended when a straight drug squad detective blew the whistle on a bunch of crooks, but it cost him his career and his peace of mind before the law finally moved against rogue cops, the real rats in
the ranks. Dedicated listeners will recall that that straight drug squad detective who is a man who came in here and spoke to us at some length, and his name is Lochlan McCullough.
We did a whole series with him.
One fat rat, thieving detective Kevin Hicks, was jailed and some slippery characters quietly moved on to the quiet relief of relatively on US colleagues. One of the slippery set, the man known.
To other cops as Grave Deed, was.
Publicly named after a Beretta undercover pistol went missing from a drawer in the drug squad. And when we say an undercover pistol, we made a pistol probably unregistered and not police issue, a pistol used by detectives when they are as drug dealers or criminals. So it obviously has to be not a police issue weapon. It has to be an orphan something that looks if a crook had it, and the undercover coppers would use that when they're out and about pretending.
To be dirty, filthy crooks.
Okay, that pistol mysteriously disappeared and then mysteriously reappeared when the alarm was raised.
But grave deed decided.
To resign, as did another officer subsequently charged over serious offenses. The allure of stray guns, especially pistols, has been around as long as police have. They seem to bring out the dirty Harry in the mildest of public servants. One next detective told me his crew took a contraband pen pistol from a drug squad draw and made sure it was found in the draws as in knickers of Cath Petengil, remember her, that is Granny Evil, or the Montriarch as
she's called. And that caused poor old cat quite a bit of grief, and it caused the drug squad quite a bit of amusement. That's not the sort of throwaway story that amuses Kel Glare, who is, of course, as older listeners will know, the former Chief Commissioner of Police in Victoria. Cops don't come much straight than Kel Glare, who after becoming the chief in nineteen eighty seven, campaigned against corruption in his five years in the top job, and he's now taken a stand against the way police
apparently mishandled hundreds of seized and surrendered guns. Glare's statement about police actions and inaction over custody of firearms and ammunition at the force's gun storage throws a spotlight on what some see as a shady corner of police work.
As Chief kell Glare oversaw a big cleanup overdue since the days when sp book makers, abortions, sly groggers and all the rest of it had half the police force in their pocket, a situation that set the scene for serious corruption in crime squads and red light districts because back in the bad old days, listens squads like the robbery Squad, the consorting Squad, the major Crime Squad, and districts like Saint Kilda in particular Paran around that area
windsor Paran Corfield to some extent, those districts had a high percentage of offenders, a high percentage of prostitution, stolen goods receivers, pawn shops, et cetera. And because they had more crooks per square meter. They had more crooked cops per square meter. Kel Glare was one of a new breed of dedicated and educated officers who conceded that police should be rotated through the squads and through the districts
where temptation was high. Except for the greatly respected Mick Miller, Glare's predecessors and some of his contemporaries had tolerated a brotherhood of police who let petty corruption flourish and turned a blind eye to serious breaches of the law, even if they kept their own snouts out of the trough.
So what he's driving at is that some coppers who didn't actually pinch guns or money or whatever, weren't actually running brothels on the side or silent goods rackets themselves, they turned a blind eye to other police doing it because that was the brotherhood system, where you never dobbed in a fellow copper. In much the same ways ladies and gentlemen, jockeys don't die been other jockeys. It's very similar.
Coppers and jockeys are more staunch than most crooks. We've said this before because it's true during and after Calglare's timers, Chief the drug Squad, the Licensing, Gaming and Vice Squad, and the once notorious armed Robbers came under stricter management. This resulted in a few prosecutions and a few sudden resignations,
often for alleged medical reasons. Back in the good old days, they would say that so and so has been boarded out, as in the medical Board has said that that officer can leave the force because of an illness that prevents them from serving. And that was a way for an officer who's under a cloud to leave with their pension, with their superannuation, whatever, whatever, and without a black mark
on their record. It would get them out of the police force, away from temptation, and would get rid of them. So the Medical Board was often used as a weapon to get rid of unwanted coppers without a scandal. Now there was another new broom chief commissioner. We all remember this one interstate apportee. She was Christine Nixon. Now, I thought Christine Nixon wasn't a bad stick myself, but I know that there was a lot of resentment of her,
mainly probably because she came from Sydney. I think Victorian coppers didn't like the idea of a Sydney sider an interstate coming in and taking over as chief. There would have been several assistant commissioners and so forth, deputies and things down here.
Who thought they should have got the job.
They resented any outside appointment, whether it was from Sydney or London or Glasgow or wherever. Some of them, being old fashioned and pigheaded, might have resented the fact that a woman got the job, because it was then a rare thing for women to get the job of being head of a police force. But Christine Nixon came down without any baggage. She didn't have to protect any of her old mates because she didn't have any in Victoria. She'd come up through the system in New South Wales.
Anybody she knew and liked or knew and hated, they were back there in Sydney, not here. So she came in with a clean slate, and for better or worse, she was able to talk to a whole range of people about who might have been naughty in the Victorian
police and who might have been nice. And she would have taken on board the advice of various people, not sure who those people were, but she could consult people widely and get certain advice about certain squads and certain individuals in certain squads and in certain places, such as he aforesaid, some killed her and Paran and so on,
and possibly you know, Foot's Gray and Preston and other places. Now, Christine Nixon did quite a lot of things, and there's no doubt she made the police force much more welcoming towards minorities, you know, gender, sexuality and all that stuff.
She was a bit of a rainbow promoting chief commissioner, and that was good in many ways, although it did bring her into sort of conflict and ridicule with some of her own people, who thought might have been better to concentrate on catching crooks, you know, instead of leading the gay pride march or whatever. But she did it her way, and in many ways she might have been right. It's hard to know. Nixon probably these days would have
been called someone who was semi woke. But her wokeness, such as it was, did not extend to waking up a very sleepy police backwater that went on just as inefficiently as it ever had. That backwater, of course, was the corner of the police force that looked after registering and licensing guns and gun dealers, and this was an area that had rusted on offices and public servants trusted for many years with storing a rising tide of seized
unsurrendered firearms. Now let's just make a point here. If you leave people in the mounted squad, the people that ride horses, that makes sense because these people are horse people. They have handled the police horses, they have trained the police forces. They are experts at what they do. They can train other younger people on the way through, etc.
Etc.
You would tend to leave some mounted police in their own job because they're good at it and they're unlikely to become corrupted by riding police forces. They're probably not going to steal the oats.
Or the boot polish.
But if you leave officers and public servants in charge of property as they call it in the police force, specifically in charge of guns, drugs, or cash, there is always the chance that human nature being what it is, that the rats might start to nibble at the property. The rats and the ranks. Now parallel thing happens here.
There were gun amnesties, plenty of them after the Hodel Street massacre of nineteen eighty seven, and it was pretty clear at that time that if you found or had under your bed or under the floor in the ceilings some old gun that dad or granddad or somebody else had left there, that you could actually wander into a police station handed in, no questions asked. It was a bit of a given. And indeed a lot of guns.
There was a strong trickle of guns coming into police stations for a long time after the Hottle Street massacre of eighty seven. And that's one reason that the old property store that used to be in the corner of the Russell Street Police complex had to be eventually replaced
with the bigger premises elsewhere. Now that bigger premises, without telling everybody out there where it is, it's in a nearby postcode not that far from the old Russell Street Police complex, but you know, a good long walk, a decent walk sort of to the north somewhere. And that new premises was not particularly new. It was a big old s gungeygrungjy grotty red brick warehouse built I'd say around the time of World War One. I would think, well,
look at it. Lots of graffiti, lots of pigeon manure, lots of mold and a nasty stuff like that. It looks very unloved on the outside. Apart from the fact that there are quite.
Good security CCTV security.
Cameras on that building and lighting and things, you probably wouldn't know that. It was allegedly a highly secure property branch where virtually all seized weapons, guns and other weapons and some other property is kept by the police force.
But the licensing branch, as they're called, there's a word for them, and apart from those seized weapons which are sent out to McLeod to the forensic branch, they go through ceased weapons and they say, oh, we'll keep this one because we don't have an example of that particular one in our reference library. So they get a rare, you know, nineteen forty eight man and lick up whatever it is. They'll say, we haven't got one of those.
We'll keep that in our reference library. We will get some ammunition for it, and we will shoot test shots so that we know what sort of rifling it's got, et cetera, et cetera, so that in the event that someone uses such a weapon in a crime, the police at the ballistics branch can identify a wide range of weapons. Great idea a firearms library. But if they don't need another entry for their library, if they've already got examples of things, they are then supposed to sign off on
them for destruction. Otherwise, seized weapons seem to be piled up at this property store. Now there's a lot of conjecture about what is seized and what isn't and why it's there.
But there are quite.
A lot of gun dealers and former gun dealers in Victoria that are very perturbed and agitated about some of the things that happened to their property, to their property that was seized, and also to guns that were seized that didn't belong to the dealers but belonged to members of the public. And so we've got a situation where you're a small gun dealer in Bandy Wallop in Oyon or Wendaree or Hamilton or wherever. And there were many dozens of these small time dealers.
They'd deal with local shooters.
Farmers, so on. They became targeted back in the early two thousands because the licensing branch, rightly or wrongly, decided that those people were potentially the sort of people who might leak weapons firearms into the community and into the underworld. Now in some cases that would be right. This led to a series of raids, and it's those raids that are of interest to us today.
That trickle of.
Surrender and seized firearms became a flood after the Port Arthur massacre of nineteen ninety six. So in eighty seven we've got Julian Knight and Hoddlestraet. Nine years later we've got Port Arthur. And that changed things, cranked it up to a new level, because then we didn't just have amnesties. The laws were changed about guns that legit licensed owners and shooters could have.
The laws were.
Changed to say that unless you had a special reason and a special license, no ordinary sporting shooter or farmer or whatever could have a semi automatic weapon. And this meant that overnight, with the stroke of a pen, thousands of firearms across Victoria, many of them on farms and someone, became illegal for their owners, the legal owners to own them.
Or to possess them.
They could own them, but they couldn't have them, they couldn't keep them in their possession. So all these thousands of newly outlawed semi automatics were compulsorly acquired for destruction. The temporary dealerships were sent up centers where people could bring guns in. They would have dealers price se that's a BSA five shot data DA, that's worth two hundred
and fifty bucks. Here's your check, and so on and so on, and so they would do that, and in the end the authorities had thousands and thousands and thousands of these newly outlawed semi automatics. Not only that, the public mood because of Port Arthur had swung in many ways against gun ownership, and people that have been neutral about guns had tolerated having guns around the place, as most people did. When I was a kid, Nearly everybody
had a shot gun or twenty two. And now again in granddadd had go shooting ducks and so and so were goo shooting rabbits or whatever. That sort of gun behind the kitchen door thing died out in a big way post Port Arthur, and a lot of people who had never worried about it or thought about it much said, right, that's it, we're just handing in guns. We don't need them in the house anymore. And they took them in and handed them in, and so these collection points were overwhelmed with firearms.
All sorts of firearms.
Now, all sorts of funny things were handed in, not just all those old shotguns on twenty two's and fairly standard things, all three to zero three army rifles another staple, but quite exotic stuff. There'd be handguns that you know, Granddad brought it home from the bollwar, Webley pistol, so and so brought home a colt. A lot of World War One soldiers particularly had brought home Luger pistols from
the battlefields of Europe. I knew one family in Gippsland where I think a couple of them went off to the war, and they brought home seven lugers and they used to use them shooting rabbits and kangaroos around the property and hello.
To you, mister Lee.
It was a thing. And now most of those guns are being handed in now. They were really supposed to be going.
To the crushes. All these were such to go.
To these massive crushes and be melted down and turned into scrap metal, and indeed many of.
Them probably were.
But the reality is that not every surrendered gun was destroyed, because not all reached the warehouse in the first place choice. Weapons with high collector value or black market value fell through the many cracks in the system, and of the vanloads of guns that reached the big warehouse near the city in a nearby postcode, not all seas firearms kept secure, with shrinkage occurring during a painfully slow and clumsy bureaucratic process to determine if or when their legal owners should
get them back. What I'm saying is that you know, three thousand firearms might go into the warehouse in January and after several months there might be two eight hundred and fifty left that there've been shrinkage. Now, this happens in warehouses and shops and pubs across the land. It's amazing what goes walking. It goes out the door, it goes out in people's pants, it goes out in people's sports bags. It's amazing how things vanish. And also the parts.
The magazines assailable because people want another magazine. The sites are telescopic, sites are sailable because people want them. The barrels or the gun butts or all the different parts assailable. And so a lot of these weapons that were there would be getting cannibalized by someone and would vanish.
Out the back door. It's possible over.
Being sold, it's possible being given away. It's possible that aliens or fairies took them. It's hard to know, but there's no doubt that there was shrinkage. Now, as highlighted by kel Glare's detailed statement which he made for a forthcoming court case, this was a porous and very broken system.
And that system created the opportunity for the pilfering of the guns, the ammunition, the parts with the perfect smother, the perfect cover in fact, that any shortfalls can be dismissed with a blanket excuse that it's been mislaid or it's unaccounted for, when the real truth it's probably been stolen. The system is so lousy, the labeling system is nonexistent, the computerized database is so hopeless that it's impossible for anyone to say with certainty what is and isn't in
the warehouse at any one time. And one of the reasons for this, and I've actually seen these computerized records, one of the reasons is that they had contract inputters, people who are keyboard contractors, and they would be sitting there and they would look at a reference to say one BSA three zero three army rifle, BSA being Birmingham small Arms, the maker of that particular rifle. That rifle could be described on one line as a BSA three three. On another line, the same rifle could come up as
a lee endfield a straight an army rifle. On another one, the same rifle could be described in a slightly different way each time and bolt action, ten shot, whatever. And I've actually seen these documents. What we've got is a situation where, for argument's sake, you've got one hundred firearms, but when you print out the list describing one hundred firearms,
it's got a list of five hundred firearms. Because our contract keystrokers have either made an innocent mistake or have decided that they get paid by the keystroke and they have just kept inputting whatever they liked. And this has created a monstrous stuff up of the database that is controlling the system. And that means basically there is no system.
And that means that because the people running it can't really put their finger on any particular thing, they know it's very hard to prove if anything is there or not there, and if something is missing, they know that their own lousy records will cover that fact up. They can just blame the lousy computer. They can just blame the lousy paperwork, the lousy database. They can blame the nameless,
faceless contractors for stuffing everything up. And this has left open the opportunity for more shrinkage, for more guns, ammunition, magazines and gun parts to vanish from the police's own warehouse. It's a very serious situation. But this shrinkage of guns and ammo that I've just described is only part of the picture. That's the known shrinkage. What we've also got here is the unknowns. And the unknowns are the seized and surrendered guns that vanished before they were ever recorded
in the first place. Now shooters call unregistered guns orphans. There are many stories of orphans turning into ghosts at police stations all over Victoria, and I'm here to say no doubt, all over Australia, there are many stories of receipts not being issued at all to people handing in guns, or being deliberately mishandled and manipulated to obscure the truth. And I now proposed to give some examples of this.
In twenty thirteen, the Police Licensing and the Registration Division raided dozens of small gun dealers across Victoria, many of them regional or outer suburban specialists dealing from home. Four of the police targets were around Gelong. One of those was a dealer called Phil Walter. Now Phil is apparently a former Army marksman working from home in.
The suburb of Caio. And I've actually.
Been to his house, sat in his living room with his wife and himself and a third person who's involved in sort of a pro shooter political lobby group. And Phil Walter told me recently that the officers who raided his place and many these other places, they took one hundred and thirty eight guns that he had in his strong room.
Now, some of these were stock for sale. They were his stock that he sold with price.
Tags on them, and others were not belonging to him at all and were not for sale. They belonged to private owners who'd put them in for repair or were storing them for safe keeping. They also took he says, three hundred thousand rounds of ammunition. Now that's a lot of ammo, worth a lot of money. But you know, he had the stock, and he used to keep it and sell it, including he says, some rare and valuable collectibles.
And he showed me one of these, such as empty Turkish Mauser rifle shells that a relative of his wife had brought back from fighting at Gallipoli in nineteen fifteen. And what these were Mauses, of course, or a German weapon, I think, or European weapon. But the Turks actually made a version of the Mauser, and they made their own ammunition for their version of the Mauser, which they used
in World War One at Gallipoli. And they were very short of brass, and so they were supposed to keep all their empty brass, their empty cartridge shells, and send them back to the quartermaster, who would then get them reloaded and they'd use them again. That fact accounts for
their scarcity. That they didn't leave them lying around, they didn't get dropped on the ground, but a few of them got thrown at the Allies, at the Aussies and the English and so on, because even in nineteen fifteen, some people saw the advantage of biological warfare, and so they would put excrement inside these empty bulletshells and throw them.
The few fifty meters across to the opposing trenches and land them into trench and hope that the germs carried in those excremental empty shells, which were not empty of course by this stage, would infect the opposing troops with dysentery and whatever other diseases that they had. And there was a very ham fisted and crew would attempt at biological warfare. But it was a real thing. And Phil Walter says that his wife's uncle, I think it was
fighting at Gallipoli. He was interested in guns and so forth. He had retrieved some of these shells and washed them out in the seashore at Gillipoli and brought them home and there were I don't know a dozen of them or whatever, and they were taken along with all the other ammunition and these one hundred and thirty eight guns. And he and his wife are particularly savage about that, because he clearly empty shells. They have no danger to anyone, but they claim that they are worth a lot of money,
a lot of money. They're claiming very big money.
As collectibles, because there are people who loved.
Collecting World War One and Boar War and Civil war memorabilia. So Phil Walter is particularly savage about what happened to him. He says, of the one hundred and thirty eight guns seized, the police recorded details of only fifty six, implying he says that all or most of the rest are unaccounted for. He says that now more than ten years later, of the one hundred and thirty eight guns seized, he can only.
Track about fifty of the fifty six that.
Were written down. He said, the rest no one knows where the rest are. He's very angry about it. He has produced documents which have been used in Firearms Appeals Committee in legal proceedings, and he's shown them to us which shows that those fifty six firearms, the fifty six that were written down by the police, have been released released in quote marks to another gun dealer to resell to the public. What he's saying is the police came
in here in twenty thirteen. They took a heap my guns and guns belonging to my customers, but I didn't own at all here for repair or whatever. They took them away to Melbourne and put them in a warehouse, and fifty six of them they've given them to another gun dealer to sell and the ones that haven't been given to another gun dealer to sell. They can't tell me where they are or what's happened to them, and
he's very angry about it. Now, we're not going to chase every rabbit down every burrow here, but suffice to say that there are examples with sworn statements where shooters license shooters who had guns lodged with Phil Walter in his strong room. This particular shooter had one brand new one there and one in for repair. They have just vanished off the face of the earth. No one knows what happened to them, except that it's likely they've been resold somehow, because they.
Are both.
Caliber rifles, which are very much sought after by fox shooters and rabbit shooters and sort of vermin shooters, so they're very saleable and people want them. And it seems highly likely that those weapons have been illegally unsold and the legitimate owner has been.
Deprived of them.
They have effectively been stolen from him by officers of the law. This would seem to be not a good thing. Now. In closing, we could go on and on about this, but I have to say that every second shooter you meet has anecdotal evidence or anecdotal stories of strange transactions about surrendered guns, especially handguns, but not only handguns. One blog I told me that in the big post Port
Arthur surrender he saw a very unusual thing. An elephant gun had been handed in at a northern suburban police station, in fact, it was Preston police station. He says it was a highly unusual weapon and that whoever was thought, we won't crush this one. It's too good. And the guy I know offered a small amount of money for it, in one hundred and fifty bucks or whatever, to save its life sort of thing. And it didn't go to the crusher, But it also did not go to my contact.
It went to a third person. That someone working at that police station at that time sold it to someone else for another fifty dollars, and that it went out the back door with some other person who wanted to collect that elephant gun and put it on the den.
Wall or whatever.
Now that is just one example of hundreds, without doubt, where the guns handed in by bona fide citizens thinking that they are going.
To be destroyed, I suppose.
Or at least sold on the open market elsewhere in the world. Perhaps were actually dropped in a bag at the feet of the hervers accepting it and sold out the back door, or given away to friends, or taken home by someone working in that place. Another example. And I know this to be a fact because I know all the people involved, I know them personally. Nineteen ninety
five respected retired businessman a man called Alan Cresa. He asked the local police to visit his house at Painsil in Gippsland to pick up some guns that have been in his family for decades. He had three handguns, among other things, World War one revolver, tiny snubnose thirty two caliber revolver that his father used to use when he banked money and back in the nineteen thirties, and a twenty two caliber Barretta pistol, which is a reletively modern
weapon and quite sought after. A very light weight, accurate and reliable thing that people like to own now. Two police officers responded to the call, a male and a female, and they came to his house at Paincil. He gave them the handguns and he asked for a receipt. He was a man of about.
Eighty years old at this stage.
They made vague excuses and promised to mail him the receipt. No, no, we haven't got our pen, and we haven't got our book, or it's in the car, or it's in the boot, or you know, we'll mail it to you when we get back.
To the office. They didn't.
When a younger adult relative of Allan Cresa visited shortly afterwards, he said, decrease of where's that, Bretta. I was very keen to get that because I've now got my pistol license and I could take it over or buy it from me whatever. You could give it to me and I can use it at the pistol club to shoot targets. And the old man said, oh, oh you want it, okay, no problem. You go to that police station which is not far from here, and you asked them, you explain
the situation, identify yourself, identify me. He's my driver's license. Whatever you want, you'll be able to get it. The younger relative, a young man who was a merchant seaman at the time later became a ship's captain, quite a respectable sort of fellow, and he had a legitimate pistol license to target shirt. He goes to this police station to retrieve the surrendered pistol, which has only been there for a few days. He's never forgotten what happened. When he got there.
He was told bare faced lies. He was told that he.
Was imagining three surrendered pistols. He was told that they didn't exist, and that if he couldn't produce a receipt for them that proved that they didn't exist. They told him he was making it up or he was hallucinating. Now he was very angry about this because he wasn't making it up and he wasn't illucinating. He insisted on
seeing the senior officer in charge. The officer came out, Now this is I think an inspector, and he had, you know, the pips on the shoulder, and he backed up his staff's attitude, in fact, his staff's bald faced lies. And he flatly denied that Alan Creas's pistols had been handed in or that they existed. And when our would be pistol shooters said he'd take it to police internal affairs. The inspector turned nasty. He got very threatening and.
He said, let's see how that goes.
For you, sonny, And he was very snarling and he stared down the fairly agitated young man who left. He was suddenly nervous about possible repercussions if he persisted, and he he did not report it to internal affairs because he thought, I don't need the agro and clearly, while I'm up here in a skips land away from everywhere else, who knows what could happen. I'll just let it go now.
That young fellow in the mid nineties as it was, went on to become a sea captain, and then he ran his own very big sea pilot business, and then he did very well, and he bought a property at Mansfield and became a farmer, and then he became the mayor of the Shire of Mansfield. So he is quite
a solid citizen today. He's still a sporting shooter. But it still rankles very much what happened to him at a country police station in nineteen ninety five where he was told lies by police who colluded with each other to steal three surrendered handguns. And think about it, those three handguns are out there somewhere. It depends where did they find their way back onto the black market? Were they sold for cash to crooks in a pub or to an alleged collector who on sooldom to crooks in
a pub. Are those weapons now sitting in a glove box, or in the inside pocket or a holster of someone who could use them against a laura abiding citizen or even against the police. Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnny Burton. For my columns, features and more, go to Heraldsun dot com dot au forward slash andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news podcasts
sold at news dot com dot au. That is all one word news podcasts sold And if you want further information about this episode, links are in the description.