Sadie: I'm Justin, I'm a free agent and my pronouns are he and they. Sadie: I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they, them. Jay: I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, Jay: him. And we have guests. Would you like. Jason: To introduce yourselves? My name is Jason. My pronouns are he, Jason: him, and I'm an academic librarian in public services. Jordan: I'm Jordan. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a director of library services.
Jordan: Thank you all right director of library services is that like access services Jordan: or you're the full director of the whole thing director the whole shebang yeah Jordan: right i'm i'm just really keen on job titles right now because i'm doing all Jordan: this job hunting so everything. Jason: Comes up and it's like oh you're the director slash ceo of this job it's like Jason: okay well which is it throws me off certainly that job did not have a salary commensurate.
Jason: Would you tell me a little bit about yourself and why you decide to be an editor for this book? Jason: Let's see. I'm a small town boy from Alabama that finished his master's in history Jason: and knew that I didn't want to go on to get my PhD. Jason: So I got kind of pointed in the direction of library school. Jason: I really enjoyed the research and the idea of helping others with their research. Jason: So I've kind of bounced around a few places over the years.
Jason: Landed here about three years ago. Had a career, you know, active in the LGBTQ Jason: community, both professionally and And personally, both Jordan and I served Jason: together on the board of Inequality Center. Jason: That was some fun times. Jason: For me, this book was kind of, it was cathartic after several experiences that Jason: Jordan and I shared together when we were working together at our previous university Jason: or my previous university.
Jason: And one thing that kind of kept with me was the thought that someday this will be useful to you. Jason: And then we just kind of reached this moment of critical mass with all the things Jason: going on, that it seemed like a moment right to come out with a book to kind Jason: of talk about the experiences we had. Jason: And I'll just kind of stop there and let Jordan kind of catch up. Jason: And then we'll talk a little bit more about the origins of the book.
Jordan: Yeah, I guess my story is kind of similar to Jason's. I've been in libraries Jordan: since I was 16, so it's been a minute. Jordan: And honestly, I think part of my reason for being in libraries, Jordan: it's kind of the common story. I like helping people, etc. Jordan: But I also, from my youngest years, I've hated censorship. I can't with it. Jordan: I know that's not silly, but there's a lot to say. Jordan: I've edited a book about it. I kind of want to gather my thoughts here.
Jordan: I guess my interest in fighting censorship didn't directly connect to my interest Jordan: in libraries and my professional work until, like Jason has just hinted at, Jordan: we had these shared professional experiences at Jason's previous job and at Jordan: my current workplace where censorship did come into play. Jordan: And then in the last couple of years, you know, moms, I keep doing this Freudian Jordan: slip, Moms Against Liberty.
Jordan: I'll do the right thing, call it Moms for Liberty. Jordan: Started doing their thing. And I think that might have been a little bit of Jordan: the catalyst for our deciding to edit this book was seeing that, Jordan: yeah, we've had these experiences and it's going on at an institutional level of other places. Jordan: And let's gather some thoughts around it. Yeah, we did a whole episode about Jordan: Moms Against Liberty. And I'm going to take that now because I think it's.
Jason: To Emily Drabinsky's book series. So why don't you tell us how the books got started? Jason: So I had a contribution in an earlier book in that series, Out Behind the Desk. Jason: So that was kind of an end that, you know, oh, let's start here.
Jason: And so Jordan and I, our original idea was we wanted to do this book about academic libraries, Jason: instances of censorship of LGBTQ materials and services and academic libraries, Jason: because there's not a lot of scholarship out there about it. Jason: And really, the most thorough treatment of it came from Carmichael's work in the 90s. Jason: And there hasn't really been much since then in terms of academic libraries.
Jason: So that was our initial thought. We did our call for proposals and had just Jason: such a tremendous response to that from school librarians, public librarians, Jason: archivists, that we decided to expand the scope of the book to just cover libraries Jason: in general because there was so much there that could be said and that needed to be said. Jordan?
Jordan: I think that's about right. Yeah, we began with this idea that we would be, Jordan: you know, working in new territory if we were targeting academic libraries specifically. Jordan: And then it became very clear as we began, you know, doing a lit review.
Jordan: And kind of, I think, honestly, as submissions started rolling in, Jordan: in response to our initial CFP, Jordan: that this was going to be a much more comprehensive project, Jordan: that it was going to incorporate lots of different kinds of libraries and different Jordan: kinds of censorship, honestly, Jordan: because I think one concept that we get at is there are various ways to censor things.
Jordan: So yeah, it was maybe a little bit of mission creep at the outset, Jordan: but I think that it ended up going in a more thorough direction, I hope. Jason: One thing that that was important is we wanted to have kind of this toolkit Jason: component to each of the chapters. Jason: You know, we didn't just want to tell stories. Jason: We wanted people to be able to have kind of something to take away from it. Jason: Like, how can I use this in my situation?
Jason: So that's something that I'm hopeful will be helpful in this present moment. Jason: Another important thing, and we had to kind of go separate from some great contributions Jason: we got along the way, is that we wanted these chapters to be accessible to as Jason: many people as possible.
Jason: And I think some of our colleagues, particularly those in academic librarianship, Jason: have kind of this academic voice, Jason: if you will, when they're writing, that is not very clear or understandable Jason: to people that don't read and speak in that academic voice. Jason: And so we had some contributions that were just kind of really up there in the Jason: ether, and we tried to maybe tone it down a little bit. Jason: And ultimately, we just had to kind of part ways.
Jason: But it was important to us that we wanted this book to be accessible to everyone. Jason: And so that's something else that I want to kind of plug in for. Sadie: And when did the final draft come in? Jay: Like what time of year? Like when did the book stop updating, basically? Jordan: Oh, gosh. Jason: We got the final chapters in December of 23.
Jordan: 23, yeah. And then there was a full year of basically our final edits to the Jordan: chapters and back and forth to the publisher before it went to press. Jason: Litwin and Library Juice Press, they were also impacted by Hurricane Helene. Jason: I think a lot of their operations are based out of Asheville, North Carolina. Jason: So that also kind of slowed down the publication process. Sadie: And I'm not actually entirely certain that we have said the name of the book yet so far.
Jay: We're so good at this. Sadie: We're so good at this. So yeah, why don't you give us the bare bones of the Sadie: metadata of the book, if you will? Jason: Well, as you can see from the front cover, the title of the book is Censorship Jason: is a Drag, LGBTQ Materials and Programming Under Siege in Libraries. Jason: And for folks at home that can't see, I'm holding up a copy of the book. Jason: And the cover itself has the title, has Jordan and I as co-editors,
Jason: but it's been marked out with a black marker. And that was a very deliberate Jason: choice that we and the publisher made as part of this statement. Jason: Great. Yeah, thank you for the description. I found out recently that we have a deaf listener. Jay: So that'll really help if we do more description of any visual stuff. Jay: It reminds me of those banned book talks. Yeah, you can get.
Jay: Okay so since this this book Jay: kind of wrapped before the election obviously we're Jay: a little behind and um i mean obviously Jay: all the chapters are very prescient but didn't really know Jay: like the flooding of issues that we were going to be dealing with on all different Jay: sorts of levels although most of them guessed pretty correctly i would say i Jay: think there is um i would definitely love to see like a volume two where people
Jay: update you know based on what happens during.
Jason: The next year because you know a lot's changing Jason: very quickly you know it's funny Jason: that you point that out this is a conversation jordan and Jason: i have had together and with our Jason: series editor emily drubinsky whom i Jason: can't say enough good things about she's good people that Jason: when when we sent the manuscript to the publisher Jason: in march of 24 and then Jason: kind of through the year jordan and i had kind of the feeling
Jason: that you know maybe maybe as a country maybe maybe we were about to turn a corner Jason: on things you know maybe this was just going to be kind of an inflection point Jason: and and this would just be kind of a book of history documenting what happened Jason: and and sadly that was not the case so. Jordan: Like and actually there's something in i think it's our introduction chapter? Jordan: Yeah, that I wanted to point to.
Jordan: And this is a passage that I think I wrote. While we've seen encouraging signs Jordan: that the oppressive measures of the past several years are facing real pushback Jordan: and even exhaustion within the ranks, as one mom for liberty noted in early Jordan: 2024, I guess there wasn't as much willingness to do the work that's required Jordan: to propel the movement forward.
Jordan: There's no reason this can't happen again. So like, I think we're definitely Jordan: riding kind of under the assumption that, you know, like the election wouldn't Jordan: fix everything. Obviously, elections don't fix everything.
Jordan: But under the idea that maybe, be, you know, this sort of, you know, Jordan: moms for liberty movement and kind of, you know, the tensions and the pressures Jordan: that we were discussing in our book had maybe, you know, reached their highest Jordan: point and then were beginning to burn themselves out. Jordan: And then everything else started happening. And we've had the developments, Jordan: you know, at this like whiplash speed just in the past couple of months.
Jordan: So we did definitely kind of go from the sense of the book being not just a historical document, Jordan: but in part a historical document to being, I optimistically think kind of a, Jordan: you know, part of a continuing conversation that we don't want to continue because Jordan: it means censorship is still ongoing, but it's going on whether we like it or not. Jordan: Yeah. Jay: It's funny you mention the burnout of these movements.
Jay: So one thing we actually did when we were talking, it would have been 2022. Jason: We actually brought on a comedian to talk about sort of right-wing engagement on the. Jay: Changed everyone's talking points immediately. Jay: And so one thing that we were talking about was, you know, who is going to continue Jay: doing the day-to-day work of this? Because you can have rabble-rousers who are Jay: big people, like Libs of TikTok,
Jay: 5,000 across the country by himself. We still are going to have that. Jay: Who's going to, you know, the Baptist churches or particularly Southern Baptists. Jay: I'm not trying to paint all Baptists with the same brush, but what I said at the time, Jay: of how it's regained traction through the election of Trump. Jay: And it's kind of amazing to me how much the momentum has installed on attacks on libraries, because,
Jay: the week, they'll move on to the next target. But they're really impressively Jay: hitting on every target and keeping up the momentum just through the sheer force Jay: of maintaining, you know. Jason: Months, but they are really keeping their targets in sight. And it's unfortunate.
Jason: It we started out the book with a chapter on Jason: stoicastic terrorism written by bren nilson Jason: and man a chapter like i went back and Jason: re-read it again today and it just really knocks it out of Jason: the park just kind of setting up this intellectual framework of how and why Jason: this is going on you know kind of this three-legged stool you're having the Jason: pundit having the medium in this case being the internet and then having the
Jason: activity and it just you know it feels like the internet for all it's good, Jason: has unleashed these forces that allow that fire to continue to burn. Jason: Yeah. Even then, without, you know, it's really kind of interesting how. Jay: Like, Moms Against Celebrity is, like, still doing the day-to-day work. Jay: You know, I really thought this is just going to go to the Facebook grandmas, Jay: and they'll be the ones writing the letters and stuff, but it's not going to
Jay: be, you know, essentially an extension of the Ron DeSantis campaign. But that's not true. Jay: It's kept up, and that's really not something I expected. Jay: Yeah, and even beyond just censorship of queer materials, Jay: with the rise of the on-campus protests and encampments against the genocide in Palestine. Jay: You're seeing now library administrators censoring their employees.
Jay: There was so recently there was Jay: a harvard employee fired for tearing Jay: down one of those like free the hostage posters and Jay: he was wearing his badge at the time and so that's Jay: how they knew it was him and they fired him he was a cataloging librarian Jay: at harvard that one of the heads of Jay: or whoever's like high like their university librarian or Jay: whatever also was like banning library Jay: employees from like entering the building when they were
Jay: supporting students and faculties like silent Jay: like protests in the library so it's Jay: even beyond just the materials now it's like any sort of dissent of speech if Jay: the library doesn't agree with it because apparently that's not what libraries Jay: are for now that's news to me but so it's even just beyond materials like employees Jay: are being censored or just straight up fired now so. Jordan: Honestly like that connect i mean there's a there's an experience that i think it's.
Jay: Jason l. Jordan: But that we recount in the book about i mean jason the the incident. Jay: Which one yeah which one um relatable yeah. Jordan: A good librarian does not you know oh. Jason: Dear god yeah so that anecdote, Jason: So that's really kind of at the root of this book, is that inspired this book.
Jason: These things will be useful for you later. to just Jason: briefly summarize we had a new librarian start guess Jason: in like 2015 who wanted to to Jason: start doing a banned books display and so Jason: i did a search in our catalog and they say the collection wasn't Jason: great because we just transitioned not long before Jason: from a community college to a four-year university Jason: and had largely relied on donations from the state library or from the community
Jason: so the collection wasn't great so of course we don't have a lot of the banned Jason: books so i used some retrospective collection development funds from a project Jason: i got approval for to purchase every title available. Jason: On amazon because that was the book jobber we were using at the time all the Jason: banned books from the banned books list including the joy of gay sex which became Jason: kind of the cause of great Fuhrer and the library for several years.
Jason: One of the library employees objected to adding the book to the collection, Jason: brought the book to a meeting. Jason: And we went through this whole rigmarole of, you know, explaining why this book is being added. Jason: We got faculty to weigh in on the value of this book in our collection and the Jason: staff member just continued to refuse to accept it.
Jason: And one day in a moment of frustration, the library director at the time, not Jordan, Jason: Jordan's wonderful, I was a library director at the time, came into my office Jason: and just simply said that a good librarian does not do anything to jeopardize Jason: their library or the place of their paycheck. Jason: I kind of took that as a veiled threat. Jason: And that was kind of the seed for that particular chapter.
Jason: Academic. Jay: Libraries have so much porn in them though like have they not heard of like Jay: a women's studies department like of the libraries that have porn it's usually Jay: academic libraries like this is not new this is not controversial like and. Jason: What's really funny is joy of sex in the collection yeah.
Jordan: Of course and like i don't like i'm Jordan: i'm a movie guy and i donate like old dvds Jordan: of mine to the library that have absolutely filthy stuff in Jordan: them and i know and like the Jordan: staff member never objected to that stuff because apparently she wasn't watching Jordan: the movies but she was able to you know go through this one-off book and find Jordan: it has graphic illustrations but they're nothing more graphic than you would
Jordan: find in you know the heterosexual counterpart to the book um yeah and i mean Jordan: it's it's an acknowledged classic you know it's whether she likes it or not Jordan: it's a classic so but beyond. Jason: That you had ordered a book that she added to the collection without question tulsa i. Jordan: Ordered yeah tulsa by larry clark and like i'm sorry that book is every bit Jordan: as graphic as anything in the edmund white book but maybe she liked me better i don't know.
Jason: I i have what i like to call a resting beer face um that has won me few friends over the years well. Sadie: It depends depends. Jason: Where you are at the time but sadie. Jay: Just shot me.
Jason: Such a look, Jason: um i've lost my oh but i remember in the story uh Jason: you were i believe it was you who jason who Jason: was ordering books and the person was Jason: not ordering them yeah we talk about that Jason: in our building collection development policy chapter Jason: so as i mentioned we were Jason: using amazon as our jobber so what Jason: we would do is we would send amazon links Jason: to a librarian in the library Jason: who was responsible for actually purchasing
Jason: them and and doing all the technical Jason: processing to add them to the collection so i Jason: faithfully sent um i think one year like Jason: i let me back up we were doing this retrospective collection Jason: development project i got approval for so each Jason: year i would pick an underserved community to Jason: buy books for so one year african americans one year Jason: native americans and so on and so the year came around i did start out with
Jason: the gays because that would just be a little too on the nose but you know i Jason: started i you know one year i ordered or requested a whole slew of titles from Jason: the Stonewall Book Awards and the Lando Awards, so award-winning titles. Jason: And set them faithfully on, thinking that these books were being ordered for the collection.
Jason: And it was only later, when we were putting together a book display for Pride Jason: Month, that I realized that Jason: actually know the books were never ordered and Jason: this was the single person just sort of vetoing Jason: it on their own with and and sometimes going to the director to Jason: be yeah i i think and this was kind of before the whole rigmarole about the Jason: joy of gay sex because again i bought that for that band books week project
Jason: but i i don't know if it was the director that tacitly said no or if it was Jason: just this librarian exercising their prerogative. Jason: But in either case, the books were not ordered. Sadie: And something that I really like how the stochastic terrorism and stochastic actions chapter is so. Jason: High up in the book, early in the book, because I think it pulls together a. Jason: Lot of the chapters by explaining how this whole thing is connected.
Jordan: Giving everyone the opportunity to be nasty to queer people. Jordan: And there's also, I think, a component where people are almost forced to internalize this stuff. Jordan: So it goes back to the idea of community standards, right? If you're working Jordan: within these sort of widely accepted, or what somebody says is widely accepted Jordan: parameters, community standards, eventually you're going to internalize that Jordan: as part of your practice.
Jordan: And it's almost like this panopticon thing Jordan: where you end up you know with this perception Jordan: that oh this some force outside of me is going to attack me if i don't adhere Jordan: to this and so you don't end up taking these risks right like jason did you Jordan: after these events happened like did you get more you know outgoing with your Jordan: lgbtq oriented purchasing or did you kind of keep your head down you know.
Jason: Uh i absolutely did not Jason: like i i i remember Jason: when i was like heading out the door i was really tempted to buy Jason: another copy of the joy of gay sex because the copy Jason: that we bought just disappeared of course it was Jason: never having a lot of fun yeah yeah it as an aside the employee that challenged Jason: adding that book allegedly was not homophobic because they have a gay cousin
Jason: that they're very fond of of course so maybe they they gave it to their their cousin um. Jay: I think they're the gay cousin. Jason: So, Jason: it has had a chilling effect for sure. Like when I, I left, I left the job. Jason: I moved on. I was content to stay there for the rest of my career. Jason: I still miss that community. I had like a community of scholars that we have Jason: a group chat that is active every single day.
Jason: I miss working with those people. But I left and I talk about this and in one Jason: of our other book chapters, look at the title list or no, I've got it in our little sheet here. Sadie: Is it at what cost? Jason: Yes, at what cost? I talk about this with queer battle fatigue, Jason: that that's the result of not even just being an advocate, being a gay person Jason: in a situation where you're being asked to explain something, Jason: being asked to defend something, it takes a toll.
Jason: But when you are an advocate, you know, buying books, doing programming, Jason: and you experience this backlash, you know, it takes a professional and personal toll. Jason: You know, for three years, I had to go on anti-anxiety medications because of Jason: everything, like just the culmination of it all. And this was even before the pandemic.
Jason: So it takes a toll. And I, I've kind of recalibrated my scholarship, Jason: my service since then, you know, I reached out to, Jason: well, when we had it here in Florida, um, reached out to the sponsor, Jason: oh gosh, Jason: the, the safe zone training on campus. Jason: Cause I was, I used to be a safe zone trainer and I, you know, Jason: I was interested in doing that here and, you know, kind of getting involved. Jason: But I said, I do not want to be the face person.
Jason: You know, I'm happy to work behind the scenes. I don't want to be the face person. Jason: I had, you know, these bad experiences before and I'm happy to be a worker bee, Jason: but please don't put me up front. Jason: Yeah. Jordan, you mentioned community standards. Jordan: To say in terms of this anti-queer movement?
Jordan: I think it, well, I mean, I guess for one thing, it kind of brings us to this Jordan: sinister incident for the drag story time that we had, where I think community Jordan: standards also came into play as a concept. Jordan: So basically, I want to say that it was the end of 2018. We had the idea that Jordan: we should do a drag story time in our academic library, that this would be a
Jordan: fun kind of offbeat event for finals. It would be a stress buster, Jordan: and it would be definitely a way of getting attention.
Jordan: It drew the wrong kind of attention it got the attention of a state legislature Jordan: who effectively said i think this are not the kinds of events that we should Jordan: be supporting certainly not with taxpayer money so and really jason you should Jordan: be you and this is more straight for you because i think you ended up kind of Jordan: taking the administrative brunt of this didn't you.
Jason: I you know and i wasn't even the one that initially organized Jason: the event wasn't even my idea or on my radar Jason: but i was the sponsor of the student Jason: group pride at uafs at the time so Jason: you know we had the idea of hey let's get the student group Jason: to sponsor this and we'll just house it in the library and Jason: and that kind of put me front and center i remember there was you know everything
Jason: was fine we our library director at the time had gotten approval from her immediate Jason: supervisor everything seemed fine and then And, you know, when the state legislator, Jason: who ironically or not so ironically, is now on the state library board.
Jason: Got wind of it and all these things started blowing up Jason: and then you know the university was getting pressure Jason: from the local community and from alumni you know Jason: at that point things started to hit the fan and i Jason: had both the provost and the associate provost come over to my Jason: office i had never seen either of them in the library Jason: before much less in my office and that Jason: was really kind of daunting to have both of them sit down and
Jason: you know go over the particulars of this event with me and we Jason: talk about this in some detail particularly in our toolkit of Jason: if you're gonna do it this is how you should do Jason: it and part of the issue was is that Jason: we had included the library's logo on the flyer and Jason: so you know the legislator had really latched on to that and said that the university Jason: was endorsing this event because the library logo was on the flyer and so ultimately
Jason: you know the decision was made to just take the logo off the flyer and everything Jason: would go forward But it was a real stressful time. Jordan: But I also think going back to the ADF community standards, that was sort of Jordan: the cliche that came into play a little bit. Jordan: And I don't remember whether that phrase was actually articulated in the whole Jordan: thing. Certainly the concept was.
Jordan: But it wasn't the community getting upset. It was one or two people in the community Jordan: maybe getting a few of their online followers stirred up about the whole thing. Jordan: But the community's reaction really, it seemed positive to me. Jordan: People did not seem to take the event. It wasn't like, you know, Jordan: like small town rises up to oppress, you know, the, you know, the gays within. Jordan: It was really, you know, this agreeable event is happening.
Jordan: People who want to show up are going to show up. Those who don't will avoid it. Jordan: But it ended up, I think the opposition kind of painted themselves as being, Jordan: you know, the voice of the community in this whole thing. And I think that's Jordan: what happens a lot of time with community standards. Jordan: Somebody who's vehemently against something will represent themselves as being, Jordan: you know, the authority on it.
Jordan: They are the ones who speak for the community, whereas the gays or the minorities, Jordan: whatever, are not, you know, by dint of being minorities, they cannot speak for the community. Jordan: That's the dynamic that I think was in play in this event. I think that's the Jordan: dynamic that's in play so much in so many of these situations where, Jordan: the community really a minority within the community is there to the press materials programming whatever.
Jason: It ended up being a really lovely event and a news crew had come to film it Jason: and they actually packed up and left early because it was so anticlimactic you Jason: know in the in the height of all the drama that led up to i mean with all the Jason: drama you would have thought a drag queen was planning it but.
Jay: Um and like Jay: i think a mistake that people make Jay: when these kinds of things happen is to like actually Jay: take the argument as valid like oh Jay: how dare they have a drag queen around the children Jay: don't that's why would why do the drag Jay: queens only go to the children and not the like elderly and stuff it's because Jay: they're all pedophiles and we go no no we're not and it's like that's that's
Jay: actually not the way that you tackle this because then you're like giving their Jay: argument any validity at all and that's just not what we should be doing by Jay: like having this like Like, Jay: oh, we're squeaky clean, like sexless figures. Jay: Like, we're okay to be in your community. It's like, no. Like, well, that's bullshit. Sadie: Something kind of similar happened at one of my former library systems where Sadie: they organized a drag story hour for the first time.
Sadie: And the area was very, very rural, but surprisingly democratic in the places Sadie: where there were actually people.
Sadie: And the library that was holding the event was the Sadie: biggest city in the area and they Sadie: kind of did that where people were all up on the Sadie: facebook being like well blah blah blah why is this you know why is this pervert Sadie: reading to our children etc etc and for some reason the idea that somebody got Sadie: was to go okay but she's a local school teacher to be like this is this is something that, you know,
Sadie: she's, you know, this is just something she does on this, but this is like, Sadie: she has the, you know, she has the qualifications to be doing this just as well Sadie: as one of our like children's librarians kind of thing. What's the thought process? Sadie: But then as soon as they were like, well, no, she's a local school teacher, Sadie: like nothing about this is going to be inappropriate. Sadie: The first thing that got asked was what school does she teach at?
Sadie: Right. Which then is just escalates it immediately. Jay: Why is she a schoolteacher? She wants to be around the children. Sadie: At that point, the PR fucking shut down. Sadie: Like they thankfully just shut down that line of questioning whatsoever. Sadie: And we're just like, we're we're not talking. Sadie: We're not answering any more questions about this. We are going ahead with the Sadie: event as scheduled, you know, not answering any more questions about this.
Sadie: If you want to come, come if you don't. Sadie: And it went off without a hitch because it was like three people. Right. Sadie: Who probably didn't even live in that part of the county. They probably lived Sadie: like an hour and a half away or whatever. Sadie: But like that, I cannot imagine being that person being like, Sadie: I'm going to spend my time doing this thing for my community and representing Sadie: my community only to have to be like, well, where is your job at?
Sadie: Right like that's fucking terrifying even Sadie: if ultimately the event goes perfectly Sadie: smoothly like you said jason it's still like it's still it's queer battle fatigue Sadie: that's probably the best like way i can that's such a good term for it but yeah Sadie: the don't don't pretend like their arguments are valid is really the thing and yeah we. Jason: Are are circling around it's perfect because You know, just don't accept the premise.
Sadie: Yep. Jason: And and unfortunately, you know, the university being a public institution, Jason: they had to accept the premise because one of the people throwing dust up in Jason: the air about it in the legislature was chair of the committee responsible for Jason: the university's state funding. Jason: But, you know, to their credit, and I really, you know, if anyone from there Jason: hears this podcast, I do want to give credit. They did continue with the event.
Jason: You know, we did get asked a ton of questions afterwards. Jason: You know, how is this event funded? Jason: Was any public funds used for the event? Jason: That God none were, or I'm sure someone would have gotten fired. Jason: So all of it had either come from the local nonprofit, the quality center, Jason: or from the student group. Jason: Yeah. Yeah, it's on the topic of community standards.
Jay: I there's another way we can approach it, which is when someone is saying that Jay: they speak for the community. Jay: I think also a lot of people, particularly like liberal minded people, Jay: think less of their community. Jay: But you shouldn't think that in yourself either. I think you should kind of assume the best. Jay: These are just really loud, annoying people. Jason: Um it puts people on the defensive and what i one thing i was thinking of was years.
Sadie: Alabamans who are queer in alabama like it's about them you know you can't how Sadie: could it get more about alabamans right yeah and so exactly saying like we're Sadie: having a drag story hour in our. Jason: Think circumvent a lot of the argument by saying this is all run locally this Jason: is your community and it's we touch on that and the collection development chapter because, Jason: you know, like you were saying, this university is located in kind of a rural area.
Jason: It's the biggest town in that part of the state. Jason: And so, you know, the library is the only place that some of these people are Jason: going to find these books, the only place they're going to see themselves represented. Jason: Otherwise, you know, we had, I think, one gay bar in town and that was it. Jason: We had our, you know, quality center.
Jason: We were small but mighty. And so it's so important to have these materials, Jason: to have these programming, because we're part of the community. Jason: You know, community standards were part of the community. Jason: That's why we also were collecting materials about the Hispanic community, Jason: because that part of Arkansas has a huge Hispanic population. Jason: That's why we got books about the Native American community, Jason: because we're next door to the Choctaw Reservation.
Jason: And I think that needs to be the angle that we push back with, Jason: is that if you want to talk about community standards, we are part of the community. Jason: Yeah, I think people are hesitant to believe that because they want. Jay: Why a lot of this centers around parents and children, because there's this Jay: sort of fear that a lot of people have that their children are going to go off
Jay: and do something that they don't quite understand. But that, Jay: experience is so curtailed as a child. Jay: Like when we talked about the rights of children to read and know things, Jay: you know, you can say there's like. Jason: This is an extreme minority in our community, but you don't know. Yeah. Jay: Even if there's only one person, that person exists, you know.
Jordan: Like during our time in this area where I'm still there and Jason has since Jordan: left, but we we've known multiple people who, you know, like married a woman Jordan: young and then came out later in life. Jordan: Like that's, that's a story that is common here because people don't have, Jordan: they don't have access to this crucial aspect of their identities.
Jordan: And I'm not going to say that having these materials and libraries to represent Jordan: the entire community would necessarily be the cure all for that, Jordan: but it wouldn't be a problem. Jordan: It would help at the very least, you know? Oh, yeah. Jordan: Yeah, we've done tons of episodes where we've said, you know, Jordan: how did you find information about being. Jason: Also, I just saw a book at the library. You'd be surprised how often the library comes up.
Jason: That was the case for me when I was kind of coming of age, finding a book in the library. Jason: I still remember that moment, a light came on and I realized that I'm not a Jason: freak, that there's not something wrong with me. Jason: And I don't think the people screaming about community standards appreciate Jason: that, how lonely and scary it can be to grow up as a queer person, Jason: or at least, you know, when I was growing up.
Jordan: Or maybe they do to some degree. Oh, go on. Yeah. And why it takes them having like a gay child to. Jason: But they can't imagine beforehand what that reality would actually feel like.
Jay: It can also be important to be a little bit i Jay: don't know if prefigurative is the right word but like Jay: even if you don't know if there are queer people in your community Jay: which there are but even if they're say there weren't is it so horrible to have Jay: books about queer people in your collection even if they're not quote in your Jay: community like the books what's in a library and who's in a community doesn't
Jay: have to map like one-to-one like there might one day be queer people. Jay: People might want to learn about queer people. Jay: Like, queer people are just cool and we should know about them. I don't know. Jay: Like, this whole thing that a library's collections have to perfectly map onto Jay: the community members, I think sometimes gets us into problems like this. Jordan: And that's kind of what collection development is about, right?
Jordan: It's about foreseeing the needs of your community before they're explicitly articulated to you. Jordan: You know, like, that's a good job of collection development. Jordan: Yeah, and it's why it starts at the school libraries. Jason: Because that has a. Jay: I'm missing the word. But you have, when you learn things in public school, Jay: you are forced to learn them and forced to learn about them.
Jay: In a public library, you're sort of free to learn about it. There's a coercion aspect to public. Jason: Unforced force of being interested in something or a better argument. Jason: When you're talking about queer battle. Jay: Fatigue i also wanted to talk about like creating division why are you creating Jay: division in your community when you talk about, Jay: focal point of it though because we bring attention to it, but we're not starting these things.
Jay: And I think maybe people can feel a little, I don't know if it will help with Jay: the battle fatigue, but realizing that you are going to be seen itself rather Jay: than a person who's just trying to explain the conflict to other people.
Jay: Sarah Ahmed talks about, like writes about this phenomenon a lot, especially around like, Jay: Like being a killjoy, like a feminist killjoy, like, or like being a troublemaker Jay: because she's the one who would like bring up issues around like racism or sexual Jay: assault in like faculty settings and stuff. Jay: And that there's a quality to like complaining that is sticky, Jay: right? It sticks to the person who's doing it.
Jay: And then they're seen as the source of the problem. she writes about this a Jay: lot i highly recommend her work yeah if folks are interested in this kind of Jay: phenomenon of like what why am i seen as the problem when. Jason: I'm just pointing out the problem and. Jay: It's because complaining has this sticky quality to it you know.
Jason: It's funny you know it's good i'm reaching Jason: for a pen and pad to write that down that that Jason: happens um and i touch on it in Jason: the queer battle fatigue chapter that as the sponsor Jason: of the credit uafs um group Jason: you know the students came to me with a question about gender Jason: neutral bathrooms and so i you know wearing my hat as the faculty sponsor i Jason: went to a senior administrator with the question of do we have gender neutral
Jason: restrooms on this campus and what is our policy about gender neutral restrooms Jason: And I never got a reply from him. Jason: So, you know, I was diligent and, you know, followed up three times. Jason: And he finally just said, tell the students to use the bathroom that they're Jason: most comfortable using. Jason: But at his next staff meeting, he said, Jason Phillips is a troublemaker.
Jason: Yeah and i wasn't i wasn't trying to stir Jason: up the issue and that was actually an issue that had created some national attention Jason: for the university a few years before about the question of you know accommodating Jason: a trans student so i wasn't even stirring up trouble i just was asking a question Jason: what is our policy but asking the question meant i was a troublemaker it.
Jay: Means you're the source of the problem because people didn't know there was Jay: a problem until you brought it up. Jason: Yes yeah yeah Yeah. I also, to remind everyone, I do try and make a list of Jason: everything that we mentioned in an episode. So. Jay: Amit's books and The Joy of Gay Sex and everything else we've mentioned. Jay: So those will all be linked in the notes. If you're a librarian, Jay: buy them for your collection.
Jay: Exactly. Buy like three copies of The Joy of Gay Sex so everyone knows how good it is. Jordan: And also buy several copies of Censorship is a Drag. Jay: Yes, that too. Wink. Sadie: The library punk recommended reading list for your library. Jay: And remember, you are also a patron of your library. Even if you don't do collection Jay: development, you are also a patron and you can request things.
Jordan: But to be honest, I have not bought a copy of our book for our library yet. And here's why. Jordan: Honestly, I'm still working at the place where these experiences happen. And I... Jordan: I think the atmosphere is distinctly more sympathetic.
Jordan: It's distinctly more sympathetic to diversity now, but I'm still mindful that Jordan: I'm working in the South and that is a region that still has all these tensions, Jordan: these pressures, these increasing, you know, aggressions toward LGBTQ people. Jordan: And I have administrative support in this thing. You know, our, Jordan: our, our chancellor bought a copy and brought it to me to sign it. Jordan: And I was touched by that.
Jordan: Um, but at the same time i'm like do i want to Jordan: put a target on my back if i don't necessarily have to in this case you know Jordan: and like it hurts me not to have a copy of my own book and the library where Jordan: i work but also i'm like maybe this is best for now maybe maybe the situation Jordan: will feel different in a few years and i'll finally you know steal my nerve Jordan: and do it but up to this point i haven't felt comfortable with it yeah.
Jay: Yeah picking your fights. Sadie: Is important um it really is i've always talked about that i mean on the whole Sadie: range of issues of like you know. Jason: In terms of like that kind of thing happening which is a strange sentence to Jason: say but it's true like no one has come around with a list of like here's every Jason: time your your website says gay or lgbtq, Jason: I'll be the face of this because it's fine.
Jason: But that's a line I'm willing to draw, but it's, it's, you know, Jason: it's also because like, I'm willing to move. Jason: I'm willing to get a new job. I'm, you know, that's, that's not everyone's position. Jay: One of the, actually, this is good. One of the things that comes up multiple Jay: times in the book is the political nature of libraries. Jason: As a big thing of saying the ALA is against this because this is an attack on Jason: all queer people existing.
Jason: It's not a library-specific issue, but we're going to talk about it from the library perspective. Jay: This sort of the fear, the failure of neutrality as a policy, Jay: which is never really a policy. Jay: In fact, it doesn't really come up anywhere in most libraries, Jay: codes of conduct or anything. Jay: And it made me think there was a discussion recently in the SkullCom Shit Talk.
Jason: Things like that from their website because they work directly with the federal Jason: government to get grants. Jason: And we were going back and forth about, is this a sound move? Is this too. Jay: Know, I think most people actually lean towards saying, yeah, Jay: it was a good strategy because of the direct nature of their work with the federal. Jay: Government at this moment. Jason: It was a good retreat. But I don't, again, I still, it's the same thing with
Jason: that DEI collection. I don't know how I feel about like that. Jason: Like, I think that might be a line for. Jason: Think about strategic retreats, I guess? I know it's a difficult one.
Jason: It's funny you mention that i'm on a ala committee and the chair of the committee, Jason: is a librarian with the federal government and they Jason: recently said that their term is up in june and they are not staying on the Jason: committee and i don't think they're staying involved or active with ala and Jason: i think that largely has to do with with what's going on and that that is kind Jason: of a strategic retreat for her in this situation and i i feel badly but It's tough.
Jason: It's really tough because we talk about in one of our chapters, Jason: if we had to do the drag story time again, would we have done it? Jason: And no, I would not have after having lived through that. Jason: And that's the line that we have to kind of draw is that we are professionals, Jason: but yeah, I got to keep a roof over my head for my four cats and two dogs. Jason: They're bums and they depend on me.
Jason: So i i understand some of these Jason: decisions that they got to keep the lights on they got to they got Jason: to keep the grants rolling in or they got to do this but it's Jason: also it's a scary time because what what's going to get lost in this process Jason: and you know assuming you know god willing four years from now we inaugurate Jason: someone new and different and better are we going to be able to kind of wind
Jason: back the clock on this or how much of it's going to be sticking around with this for a while. Jordan: Yeah I think that's my, Jordan: And I think, I mean, these are things that, you know, we thought, Jordan: we thought it was, we thought it was on the way and we thought it was going Jordan: away, but it's, it's not, you know, and like one thing that came up recently Jordan: is we were doing these like kind of like book talks on YouTube for our press.
Jordan: And somebody asked the question in the chat about how does how does this stuff, Jordan: you know, sort of echo or rhyme with the NEA censorship of the 80s and 90s, Jordan: you know, works of art being censored, you know, the government is funding, Jordan: you know, works by, you know, Andre Serrano or whatever. Jordan: And we can't allow that to happen. It's the same conversation again.
Jordan: So even if we get somebody better in office who maybe doesn't actively hate Jordan: libraries and gay people, that's not to say that this sort of tensions driving Jordan: moms against liberty and similar things are going to fade. Jordan: I'm afraid these are battles we're going to have to fight again and again, Jordan: and it sucks. But each time we're going to have to choose our role within the battle.
Jason: I reckon some real politicians are going to use the IMLS like they used to use the NEA. Jay: Oh, go ahead, Jordan. Jordan: So look at what's happening now with the ALA, where it's literally being weaponized Jordan: against entire state libraries because of one remark that the former president of the ALA made. Jordan: The ALA before this was, I think it was widely seen as this unimpeachable organization. It's the ALA. Jordan: How could we possibly think anything bad of it?
Jordan: But now it's being weaponized against states. Jordan: If a state library association mentions a connection to the ALA, Jordan: there's legislation to defund that. Jordan: That's happening, what was it, Montana? It's happening in Arkansas. Jordan: So these former authorities are no longer really, whether or not they're fighting Jordan: on behalf of librarians, they're not leveraged in the same way that they were Jordan: before. The authorities themselves are under attack.
Jay: And like with the sort of like being where do you draw the line between like Jay: what's being strategic versus what's bending the knee or, you know, Jay: where do we make these decisions and how and why? Jay: It's it's sort of like does taking Jay: language off a website mean you can't do the work anymore is sort of where i Jay: would like if if me taking a word off of a website means that i don't have the Jay: fuzz on my tail but i still do the work like it's more about like like.
Jay: Be like people who need to know can know it Jay: you know i know there's like Jay: this feels like maybe like related to like discussions of Jay: the closet right and like visibility and Jay: representation like this happens with with trans people a Jay: lot like what is representation versus what's Jay: putting a target on us like there's a Jay: reason why trans women are so visible and Jay: so attacked it's because they're so visible right like
Jay: there's a lot to do with like the politics Jay: of the closet and of representation and people Jay: being like no i have to be visible and i'm Jay: like i am visible to the people Jay: who matter to me and everything and it's Jay: like and i i'm not saying like we should all go back in Jay: the closet because fuck no we shouldn't we should do sodomy in Jay: their faces but like you know if i if i can take a word off a website and that's
Jay: going to keep me my job like i'll take a word off a website you know like that Jay: that's where i would draw that line but being organized is what's important Jay: here is what's very important yes sadie yeah. Sadie: Well and i also just kind of think of it as like again like individual lines. Jay: What's the line. Sadie: For me gonna be but also like what hits am i willing to take so other people don't have to take them. Jay: Like like.
Sadie: In the past couple of months i've been thinking really Sadie: like you know everybody's talking about moving to canada and all Sadie: of this shit right which has been a very difficult topic but i have three trans Sadie: nibblings who are teenagers living through this time and i'm thinking you know Sadie: if i stay and fight even if they somehow go to a supposedly better country, Sadie: I'm fighting so they can come back, right?
Sadie: For their future. So I'm willing to take those hits. I'm willing to be the visible queer that I am. Sadie: So they could possibly be safer in the future kind of thing. Sadie: And like, that can also apply to our jobs and our communities.
Sadie: Like maybe you keep your head down at your job because you need to keep your Sadie: job and you're not going to push the envelope there, but maybe outside of your Sadie: job, you volunteer helping with like immigrants find legal help and teaching, Sadie: you know, learning Spanish so you can help your neighbors stay, Sadie: you know, stay away from ice. Jay: You know?
Sadie: So it's like, it's not, it's not that zero sum game, Sadie: but we all do have to play it individually, but we all also have to know which Sadie: part of our communities we can take the best hit for and which ones are too Sadie: personal for us to withstand, if that makes sense at all. Jay: Also unionize.
Sadie: Also unionize, like seriously, like I feel like a lot of that is like, Sadie: so so much of that right now is like voting rights and unionize work on voting Sadie: rights and unionize maybe then like yeah anyways that's devolving but you know Sadie: that's kind of where i'm at at this point.
Jason: The jordan and i were involved with Jason: and i want to like i want to Jason: say this about arkansas when i moved to arkansas in 2013 like Jason: yeah it's conservative state there's a lot of religious conservatives there Jason: but there was also kind of this really broad streak Jason: of libertarianism where i never Jason: felt uncomfortable being openly gay in arkansas Jason: because people were very live and let live there for a time and so when we would
Jason: do interviews with the press we would always say the most important thing that Jason: we can do for our community is to be out and open to show people in the closet that it's okay. Jay: Yeah. Jason: So even if that's what it takes doing is just being out and open and just finding Jason: small ways to help the community, Jason: that will still be enough for our brothers and sisters that are in the closet Jason: or that are running scared. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah, I was always very like, even like early in my transition, Jay: when I would do instruction, I was very open about the fact that I was queer, Jay: because like I wanted, because my first career, my first job at a library school, I lived in Utah. Jay: And like, I wanted the people who, I mean, because like, contrary to popular Jay: belief, like less than half of the people in Salt Lake City are practicing Mormons.
Jay: And the Mormons I did meet there were like, kind of cool. like i went on a date Jay: with a socialist mormon one time that was kind of fun they're there i promise Jay: wild you're fucking wild.
Jay: But like i was always Jay: very open about the fact that i was queer Jay: and that i was trans because i Jay: knew that there were probably kids there who were exposed Jay: to that when they were younger and like i wanted Jay: to show them that it was okay and also to challenge them because Jay: sometimes you would run into people who needed to be challenged Jay: but that's why they were there and not at brigham young university so that Jay: they could be challenged so yeah full shade
Jay: on brigham young but you know yeah of course the the one thing that i worry Jay: about with because you know a website is just a poster board that is the outside Jay: face of your organization it doesn't say you know i would prefer spark. Jason: Feels like i think we might sometimes overestimate how clever we are in terms Jason: of well we'll back down here but that means they won't.
Jay: Target us and you get targeted anyway and and every time you see something on Jay: social media where they're like oh they back down on this but it was strategic Jay: don't you know it's the criminology, Jay: got they still you know they know that these organizations are their enemies Jay: they know that the ala is ultimately not on their side so it doesn't really Jay: matter if the ala takes a stand or not so there's there's definitely times when
Jay: we have to pick our organizations to be actually saying the things that they need. Jason: To say because you need something to rally around. Jay: The homosaurus ain't changing shit for the record. That'd be very funny to try Jay: it and anti-clear the homosaurus. Jay: You just take it down at that point. Jason: And there's several references to that source in our book too. Jay: Hell yeah. Yeah. Jay is our local homosaurus board member.
Jay: We're turning into a collective and you can apply to be on one of the several Jay: little committees. And if you're so interested in being involved, Jay: Brie Watson put a bunch of links to things in various listservs. Cough. Jay: Help us, we're only like six. Jay: Give us your free labor. Jason: I got my start in librarianship as a copy cataloger, so I may have to. Jay: Hell yeah, let's fucking go. Jason: I'm going to light. Jason: Yeah, we talked with the Queer.
Jay: Liberation Library folks. They're all they're all moonlighting on on that whole Jay: project and they have no institutional support. It's all local, Jay: to, you know, very quickly rewrite their stuff in order to get the next round Jay: of grant funding. But how long can we rely on that? Jay: Do we need to start looking at other forms of funding, you know, Jay: union funds or crowdfunding or things outside of the government? Jay: Because right now the government's not.
Jason: A reliable funder. Can I just say that drag queens are really great fundraisers? Jay: Hell yes, they are. that. Jason: That's another lesson jordan and i took from the equality center is we used Jason: to host an annual gala featuring like at least five or six drag queens and that Jason: was that was such a bomb fundraiser.
Jay: Everyone loves a lady who's very pretty but looks a little bit like a venus Jay: flytrap being a little bit mean to them that's like a universal like the maslow's Jay: like hierarchy of needs that's like the The bottom one is like a lady being Jay: mean to me and she looks like a monster a little bit. Sadie: A little bit of a predator. Jay: Yeah. So, pro tip. Sadie: Maybe not that word, yeah.
Jay: Yeah, and also local funding sources. You know, public libraries are funded Jay: locally, making sure you have your community on your side. Jason: And it's a difficult tightrope, but it's important.
Jay: I think to your union like the Jay: the support of your community members is what gives you as Jay: a union power you can't go on Jay: a quote i mean when there's no such thing as an illegal strike the only illegal Jay: strike is a failed strike remember that kids but if you go on a strike even Jay: if you're not allowed to cough the way you do that is by having community support Jay: so that you don't piss them off by being a public servant who is now on strike
Jay: right and you show them how it's, Jay: inconvenience, but they're like, yeah, it is inconvenient, and they're mad at Jay: the right people and not you. Jason: Right. Jordan: And I think that's something that we kind of harp on in one of our chapters Jordan: where we talk about, is it building and defending, Jason, where we talk about Jordan: how you have to have an investment in your community before anything goes wrong.
Jordan: I mean, obviously, there are situations where that won't necessarily help because Jordan: obviously there are plenty of libraries who think they have community support and then, Jordan: surprise, the rug's pulled out from under them by some cranks Jordan: or whatever but if you have a foothold in Jordan: your community people really recognize the the value of your resources that Jordan: will at least give you people beyond your staff who will fight for you if the
Jordan: shit hits the fan like you don't want to be left alone fending your for yourself Jordan: in these situations you want to have people writing letters on your behalf and Jordan: making noise to the state well jason you haven't you, Jordan: You have an example close to home about this, don't you, from Alabama, Jordan: just the last couple of days. Jason: Yes, I was going to mention that. To Jordan's point there real quick, we talk about that.
Jason: He actually wrote that part of that chapter talking about how librarians and Jason: libraries were not really built or poised to sort of defend ourselves because it's not our mindset. Jason: And so that's why it's really essential to develop these communities of support and allies. Jason: And in the academic setting, you know, that's your faculty and your faculty senate.
Jason: What Jordan mentioned, though, is, and this kind of goes back to what we were Jason: talking about earlier, how things are different in 2025 from when we started out with this in 2022, Jason: is, you know, the bans and the protest has become more institutionalized. Jason: You know, they're taking over school boards, they're taking over library boards, Jason: they're taking over the state library board, which happened in Alabama.
Jason: Chair of the library board in Alabama is also the Republican Party leader of Alabama. Jason: They just fired the state director of libraries because there were libraries Jason: that were getting funded from the state library that had these banned books in their collections. Jason: The notable example being Fairhope Public Library, which Fairhope is neighbor Jason: of the small town I grew up in and Daphne. Jason: And the community has rallied around this public library.
Jason: They had a city council meeting where basically one of the city councilmen gave Jason: a full-throated defense of the public library and said, we don't need outsiders Jason: telling us how to run our library. Jason: And that has been so effective in the defense of this library. Jason: And the amount of money they're getting from the state that's been suspended Jason: is kind of minimal from what they're getting locally.
Jason: But I think that's kind of the thing is like rallying the community support Jason: that we don't need outsiders telling us what to do. Jason: And the people protesting and challenging these books aren't even members of our community. Jason: And I think really kind of rallying around that kind of particular perspective could be effective. Jason: So there was an issue that me and Jay were talking about.
Jay: And I wanted to, I think this would be the best time to pull it into the podcast, Jay: which is the discussions about the Library of Congress subject headings and Jay: the difference between that and local cataloging. So. Jay: Source in order to make sure that things are still discoverable. Jay: Especially with the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America, and Denali back to Jay: Mount McKinley is the main two things that happened recently. Jay: Yeah, but there's labor issues.
Jay: Jay, why don't you go ahead and say what you were thinking.
Jay: So, yes, it is absolutely true. you do not have to Jay: like go into your catalog and change all of Jay: these over i saw a lot of people going like you're complying Jay: in advance if you don't do anything and Jay: to that i say do you actually know what doing authority Jay: work in a catalog is like especially at scale Jay: and also do you know all of the plate like are Jay: you not using oclc records because oclc will Jay: change them over and other people will add them in
Jay: are you going to always change them when they come over do you have an Jay: automatic process do you pay a third-party vendor Jay: to do this for you are you in an academic library and Jay: so you don't think about these things like do you have Jay: electronic resources like ebooks and stuff that come in through a discovery Jay: layer where the mark record never even touches your catalog these headings are Jay: going to get into your catalog whether you like it or not which sucks this is
Jay: bad and i hate it and it's bad that we rely on lc so much including internationally.
Jay: Like lc stuff affects does it like Jay: affects cataloging at an international scale right and Jay: so when the people were like well if you don't use local headings Jay: if you just sit back and you're complying Jay: in advance and like who's doing their authority control and and so like these Jay: questions of like labor around censorship and around like stuff this this particular Jay: regime is trying to impede upon libraries like, Jay: there's only so much you can do as an individual,
Jay: and this is why organizing and stuff is so important because it's like if, Jay: libraries won't even pay for us to do the authority control if they want to Jay: shell out a third party to do it like, Jay: They're not going to fund just doing, okay, well, Denali is now Mount McKinley, Jay: so we want to make sure it's not Denali again. Jay: To which I want to say, why aren't you doing that for every single place name Jay: in your catalog that has an indigenous counterpart to it?
Jay: Why don't you work with your local tribal communities to see what language they Jay: might actually want changed? Jay: And it's because of money. We don't have the money to do that because that's Jay: like a project and it's not necessarily Jay: sustainable unless you have money like in a budget line for it.
Jay: And so, like, I guess with, like, some of these issues around, Jay: like, complying in advance and there's only so much you can, Jay: quote, be an activist at work, Jay: like, especially around, like, censorship, like, how much of this has to do Jay: with just, like, we aren't given, we don't have, we aren't given the money to Jay: actually put the labor towards this problem the way it deserves.
Jason: It's it's not you don't have the institutional power to do this institute do this, Jason: authority control so i don't know i just wanted to run that Jason: past you two and see if you had any thoughts i you Jason: know i mentioned earlier that i started out my career as copy Jason: cataloger while i was finishing up grad school and i Jason: was i started out in that time where you know Jason: cataloging departments used to have a ton of copy catalogers to do this kind
Jason: of authority control to do these kind of record updates and they you know started Jason: losing these positions through attrition and and people retiring and you know Jason: they started relying more on vendor records that they were getting from their book jobbers. Jason: So if we're going to make this change, who's going to be there to do it? Jason: You know, we're cataloging departments, technical services departments are less
Jason: than half what they were 20 years ago in terms of staffing. So it's a huge labor issue. Jay: And I feel like this has touched on something like in our discord, Jay: especially when the election first happened, we had a lot of people being like, Jay: what can I do at work? Right? Jay: How can I make sure that my library, that people in my community know that the Jay: library is there for them.
Jay: And I think our broad answer was, like, a lot of this is going to have to happen outside of work. Jay: Like, you're just going to have to start organizing in your community and not just at work. Like... Jay: I hate to say that, but there's only so much you can be an activist at work sometimes. Jay: My politics do not align with the politics of my workplace. Jay: I have to do shit outside of work to feel like I'm doing something in my community
Jay: sometimes. Like I can do stuff in my union, right? Jay: And I can mitigate at work. Jay: But like, if I want my library, like if I, what I should be doing is like, Jay: well, how can I encourage groups to maybe use the library? Or how can I make Jay: sure those dialogues are set up? Jay: But like, sometimes things are going to have to happen outside of the approved Jay: realms of the state apparatus, you know?
Jason: And maybe that's one of the answers or one of the solutions is that for those Jason: of us that are kind of, what can we do? Jason: How can we feel effective? Jason: How can we give in a way that doesn't jeopardize our jobs and our livelihoods? Jason: But how can we push back or what can we do to make things better? Jason: And maybe that's it. Maybe it's just it's the volunteerism of pitching and rolling Jason: up your sleeves and doing the work, like volunteering with Homo Soros.
Jason: Or, you know, is there an equivalent to homosaurus for the Native American community? Jason: And if there isn't, you know, let's start that up. I'm working with there. Jay: There are several, actually. Jason: Oh, good. Good. Jay: Mainly coming out of the Pacific Northwest and places like New Zealand. Jason: So you're rolling up your sleeves and doing that. And the government doesn't control the Internet.
Jason: The state of Florida does not control the Internet. So we, you know, Jason: that is a space that we can have freedom to push back in, hopefully without retribution. Jason: To at least keep the fight going and to at least make some kind of positive progress. Jordan: And there's still, I think we still go back to this principle too of self-protection. Jordan: You can't do everything. You can't be everything to everybody.
Jordan: You have to protect your own interests first and foremost because you're not Jordan: going to do any good if you ruin yourself. Jordan: You have to, again, cliche, but you have to pick your battles and sometimes Jordan: you have to sort of mindfully pass your battles upward to people who are able to fight them for you.
Jordan: There are certainly battles that I wouldn't fight, but I might encourage higher Jordan: leadership levels to fight them on my behalf because they're in a position where they can do that. Jordan: It's a sad reality, but I can't be at the front lines of everything. I can't. Jason: And we talked about this in the virtual book talks last week that Litwin and Jason: Library Chiefs Press hosted.
Jason: Those of us that are living in kind of red states, southern states, Jason: conservative states, we don't necessarily have the same freedom of action. Jason: So those of us who live in blue states or who are in secure positions may have Jason: to fight the battle for us for a time.
Jay: And I will say that those of us in blue states have a lot to learn from our Jay: comrades in the red states as far as how do you do labor organizing in states Jay: which are hostile towards labor organizing?
Jay: Because like it is not illegal to be Jay: unionized in those states but that is the propaganda that Jay: it is just because you can't do collective bargaining agreements a Jay: lot of the time but that doesn't mean you can't unionize it doesn't mean you don't have Jay: protections and as you know who knows what's going to happen to the nlrb and Jay: everything but like the power of your union doesn't come from the nlrb you know
Jay: the only reason we have an nlrb is because we're like well I guess we'll stop Jay: shooting the boss in the middle of the night, I guess. Jay: That's why we have that shit now.
Jay: So i don't know but like there's like you Jay: know there's like the do you think the the teachers in Jay: west virginia who went on strike like had Jay: like legal protections to do that absolutely not Jay: did a single one of them get fired afterwards no Jay: because they had built enough power to be Jay: able to do that so yeah like we in the north like there's so many people are Jay: like oh the nlrb it's like i give a fuck about the nlrb like that's that's not
Jay: what gives my union power and like we should we have a lot to learn from our Jay: our comrades in the south i. Jason: Was surprised to that when i came here that the state university system florida has a union united. Jay: Faculty and.
Jason: I immediately like i was such an easy sell on joining the union when i got here Jason: like they you know one of my colleagues was kind of starting to give me the Jason: pitch and i was like where do i sign up like i'm i'm ready and i'm on the the Jason: the union's bargaining team with the administration. Jay: Let's fucking go that's yeah um and i tell you like you know it's.
Jason: Not that far in the past that that there there was union activism in the south Jason: so if people would just kind of reach back to you know the days of their parents Jason: their grandparents and for the younger generation their great-grandparents you Jason: know the the labor was strong once upon a time and it can be again.
Jay: Yeah my grandpa was a coal miner and i Jay: went he took me to united mine workers of america like union picnics when i Jay: was a kid and i was reared on stories of slashing scab tires and all sorts of Jay: shit like people used to go hardcore like let's slash scab tires again it's Jay: a good pastime teach it to your kids it'll be great and. Jason: As the u.s south is looked to as sort of an internal frontier. Jay: To move on to talking about the advice that you both gave in the toolkit.
Jay: Given the changes that have happened. Jason: Since the book has come out, is there anything that you would change. Jordan: About that toolkit? Jordan: I think that we kind of priced in the precarity, like the sort of like deliberate Jordan: precarity that people are feeling at this point.
Jordan: Like, I think, I mean, that I think has, I mean, that's changed a little bit, Jordan: you know, like in November before the election, people probably felt their jobs Jordan: were significantly more secure than they do now. Jordan: But I think we have sort of acknowledged that there's a real feeling of risk Jordan: to fighting some of these battles.
Jordan: And again, choose your battles, work with other people, collaborate, Jordan: collaborate, collaborate with other people, including your community, Jordan: including people who have fought these battles before to be able to do this more effectively.
Jason: Um i think organizing with the community Jason: i think that's something that i would really play Jason: up more you know building that support in the community hell Jason: i'd probably devote an entire chapter to that now um Jason: particularly seeing instances like what happened in Jason: pharaoh oh the fundamentals are there Jason: though regardless of we went from Jason: bad to worse but i think the fundamentals are there to Jason: scale up and in jordan and i you know when we were
Jason: kind of preparing for this we had a conversation i'm Jason: gonna pull that out because i had it flagged where we Jason: were talking about like you know what what would Jason: we do in volume two of this you know in the next book if if you know and maybe Jason: we'll we'll we'll write that jordan let's put that in the hopper we're already Jason: working on our next book project but one thing that jordan had mentioned is
Jason: scaling up from the idea of individual self-preservation to institutional self-preservation. Jason: So that's something that I think we would definitely kind of pivot and also address. Jason: Could you expand on what you mean by scaling up to institutional preservation? Jordan: I think we're at a point where libraries, like, I mean, as like this collective Jordan: entity, which sounds weird to say because libraries are made of people, right?
Jordan: But if we can sort of conceptualize libraries as being this collective thing, Jordan: I think libraries do feel like there's this sort of existential threat? Jordan: You know, is funding going to demolish their entire ability to carry out their mission? Jordan: To what degree are libraries still going to be, even in, you know, Jordan: a couple of years, to what degree are libraries still going to be, Jordan: you know, what they are now?
Jordan: And how can libraries, you know, leveraging the individuals within, Jordan: you know, how do we fight against that? Jordan: You want to be able to keep yourself safe. You want to keep your interests safe as a person. Jordan: But if you can reach some Maslow's baseline of having done that, Jordan: where do you go from there to keep your library the active vital thing that Jordan: hopefully it's always been?
Jason: You know it's not just the librarian advocates Jason: with targets on their backs now but i think libraries Jason: as as a whole you know with the elimination of Jason: the imls potentially you know Jason: the the effects of that are going to be devastating and and the work that it Jason: was doing what it was funding that's going to be devastating especially for Jason: small communities you know is the next step going to be that we're going to
Jason: be issued you know an approved book list by some organization and if books aren't Jason: on this list, they've got to go. Jordan: Okay, so there's legislation right now in Arkansas about that. Jordan: It's effectively trying to do away with the Arkansas State Library and put the Jordan: control of the State Library under the Department of Education.
Jordan: And this would basically allow community standards and what the mechanisms funding Jordan: libraries would be entirely dictated by, if there's adult content in libraries, Jordan: which we all know what adult content means, they would lose funding. Jordan: And I mean, that alone is an existential threat to libraries. Jordan: And like before, maybe before the 2024 election, what was the worst thing that Jordan: an individual librarian could be called? A groomer, right?
Jordan: But now you have people thinking that libraries themselves are doing the grooming. Jordan: Libraries, not just like some bad individual within the library, Jordan: but the entire institution of the library itself is doing this. Jordan: How do you fight against that? I don't have the answer to that question. I wish I did. Jason: And then another point that had come up was looking at dear Emily Trebensky Jason: and kind of what happened to her during her term as president of ALA.
Jason: And she talks about this in her forward audience at home. Jason: If you read nothing else in the book, read her forward, because I think that Jason: that's really the threat that we're facing is, you know, ALA itself did not Jason: stand behind our president.
Jason: You know she was old she was censored she was Jason: put in a corner she helped they practically tried to shove her back in Jason: the closet um and jordan had kind of had Jason: put this in our text thread this tension between Jason: i've done nothing wrong and i shouldn't have done this and it circles back to Jason: that quote from earlier that a good librarian doesn't jeopardize his library Jason: and so are our actions as librarians are they causing harm to our libraries
Jason: you know is The actions of, you know, Jason: Emily, dear Emily Drabinski, you know, which has unfortunately cast a pall on ALA. Jason: You know, how long a shadow is that going to cast over libraries in this country? Jordan: And I think we have something in our, again, our building and defending chapter Jordan: where we essentially try to reframe the cliche about a good library has something Jordan: to offend everybody to a good library represents its entire community.
Jordan: It's not about offending people. Jordan: It's about making sure that everybody feels represented and welcome. Jay: Yeah. And I was just going to say it is it has been this podcast position since Jay: that'll happen that it is cool and great that Emily is a Marxist and a lesbian Jay: and she should be loud and proud about both of those things. Jay: And no one should have been going, no, she's fine to be president.
Jay: Like, no, it's cool that she's both of those things. And I feel like we didn't Jay: see enough people in this profession stand behind her and say, Jay: no, it's cool that she is both of those things. Jay: It is okay that she is both of those things at the same time and that she is open about that. Sadie: We voted her because we wanted her to be these things.
Jay: Yes. I believe she was the only candidate for president that we've ever had Jay: on because we generally don't care about ALA shit.
Jay: But like i wouldn't be the librarian i Jay: am today without emily drabinsky like i i cite Jay: queer in the catalog and everything i fucking do like she's Jay: like my hero i love her and like Jay: it was the coolest shit in the world when she was on here Jay: and yeah like it was so shocking to Jay: me that more people were doing that no it's okay Jay: like she's fine she's not a groomer like it's Jay: fine we're not socialists we're not communists have been
Jay: said of standing behind what she said and saying it's okay that she's those Jay: things like yeah it was bad of our profession to not stand behind her and i Jay: think that more generally when we're because a theme that runs through the book Jay: is again this disgust towards queer people is the driving force of all. Jason: Of these other things in the culture as far as, you know, they might try to defund your local power.
Jay: Plant co-op because they have a DEI statement. I mean, this is a really, you know, I'm a wobbly. Jason: I'm always going to go back to industrial unionism. You know, why not have, you know, a. Jordan: Conversation with all the other public service. Jay: Workers who are under threat? You know, just because libraries and information Jay: source doesn't mean you can't work, Jay: service or anything else that's going to have a clean environment. Jay: It's going to be a target. Make rents.
Jay: But yeah, the thing has always been, it's cool. Like, gay people are cool, Jay: was of what we were saying at the time. Jay: That should be the response to saying there's gay stuff in your library, Jay: saying, yeah, gay people are cool. Sadie: We fucking rock. Yeah. Jay: I am trying to recruit. Jay: You're right. Sadie: Could be one of the, you know, is one of the ongoing threads of this podcast. Jason: Like no i. Jay: Am a crazy pervert you're right about that and that's okay.
Sadie: So we've gone a little long but i think we covered everything we wanted to so Sadie: i'm really glad that you both.
Jason: People can look for any anywhere Jason: they can follow you don't follow me Jason: i'm okay with yeah i'm salty i post Jason: pictures of cats on my social media usually Jason: my cats i i've i've so checked Jason: out of social media these days i've really Jason: just since november i've checked out of every fucking thing Jason: and have just focused on the work because that's Jason: hard that's tough enough right now i'll say that Jason: jordan and i i alluded to this earlier but
Jason: we're already deep in our next project maybe y'all Jason: will bring us back for that we are co-editing a Jason: two-volume book about the role and place that jk rowling and the harry potter Jason: wizarding world has post 2020 Jason: and you know her whole unmasking as just a terrifying, terrible bigot. Jay: Nice. The queen of Turf Island. Jason: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We'll have you.
Jordan: Back on to talk about that. This project, like, we are, like, Jordan: we finished the censorship book, and we're excited that's going on, but, like, Jordan: My mind is like exploding every day when I look at the list of things like so Jordan: we have like 50 contributions to this Harry Potter book ranging like all over the spectrum. Jordan: It's incredible. Like, I'm so excited about this project.
Jordan: Like the censorship book is I'm happy that we did this. But like the Harry Potter Jordan: one is going to be next level just because it just coalesces so many different Jordan: like it's like this prismatic thing about libraries. Jordan: Right. Like there's, you know, like the well-natured, you know, Jordan: like liberalism of, oh, Harry Potter, you know, childhood literacy and everything Jordan: versus what happened in 2020.
Jordan: And like, it feels, it feels like it feels emblematic of something. Jordan: And I'm, we're writing, we're editing this book, I think, in part to find out Jordan: what that is. So there's our little preview of that project. Jay: My chapter would be Ursula Le Guin's right there. Jordan: Yes. Jay: Is what my chapter would be. Jason: I i think actually i'm co-authoring it we're i'm gonna do like an annotated Jason: bib of you know don't do harry potter look at these as alternatives okay.
Jay: Yeah it really always was weird when other people in the library were like we're gonna have a. Jason: Harry potter themed uh extended hours for finals and it's like do you not google Jason: anything about this person like what what what's going on here like i i get that. Jay: Everyone's age regressing but come on man read another book it's like terrible Jay: people can make good art harry potter's is also not good art though yeah jk Jay: rowling is not one of them.
Jason: Yeah we're co-editing this book with with another colleague of mine current Jason: colleague of jordan's and we have like this this group chat and they both recently Jason: tackled reading Harry Potter, Jason: Jordan, for the first time, and just, like, his commentary through that journey. Jay: It was fucking awful. Jason: Yeah, he couldn't even finish. Jay: You saint. Jason: He couldn't even finish. I've read them several times, so like, Jason: before the whole Turfism.
Jason: So I actually, I did try to reread it in preparation for this, and I just couldn't. Jason: I couldn't. I couldn't get back into it. Jay: Hmm. Jason: All right. Well, thank you both. Thank y'all so much. Jordan: Thank you. Jay: Oh, thank you. Sadie: Thanks for coming on. Jason: I was looking at y'all's previous podcast and like, just really flipping out Jason: when I saw some of the ones that y'all done, like the leather archives and then Jason: interviewing one of the hosts of bad gaze.
Jason: Like that is my go-to podcast when I'm doing road trips. Jason: So I like Jordan and I, we were just, we were just, spinning at the thought Jason: of doing this. So thank you. Jordan: I saw that you guys did an episode about Kiarostami's close-up, Jordan: and I am the world's biggest Kiarostami fan, so I was like, I'm going to get that tomorrow morning. Jay: Half of this podcast is like, hey, we don't have an episode.
Jay: Jay, which weird art house film can you try to force into a podcast context? Jay: I'm like, I got close-up. Let's go. Jordan: My husband will not let me watch Certified Copy anymore because he's so sick Jordan: of me watching that movie. Jason: Jordan's partner, he is so. Jay: Long-suffering because Jordan and his esoteric taste in films it's hilarious incredible. Jordan: The Criterion Closet Boyfriend yeah.
Jay: Yeah it was Criterion Movie Boyfriend it was like an Instagram reel of some Jay: chick being like I'm dating a Criterion guy, Jay: so you watch it for fake and I was like I make people watch it for fake, Jay: but jay has good taste in movies so it's fine that's true y'all are both lovely Jay: please come out again to know about harry potter and and that'll be great or Jay: just any other things y'all are great yeah this.
Jason: Was great i i really enjoyed this Jason: and keep up the good work i i've really enjoyed this experience always. Sadie: Happy to hear that good night.