147 - Patmos Public Library with Josh from TWOAPW

Jay: Who's this little lobster guy that's on your microphone?

Josh: This is my little friend. Jay: Okay. Josh: He hangs out on the streams that I do because I stream a couple times a week. Jay: Okay. Josh: His name is White Santa. The reason that he's named White Santa is that I made Josh: the mistake of asking chat to name him when we were in the middle of a discussion about Megyn Kelly. Josh: And they said, name him White Santa. And the name stuck very quickly. Jay: All right.

Josh: But it's also, I mean, he's just a cute little guy. He's just a little guy. Josh: I love him. You can't be talking like that, White Santa. You can't be talking like that. Jay: White Santa. That's exactly right. Josh: And that's me at most times. You'd be surprised at how racist this kid is. It's really bad. Josh: Yeah, it's traditional scrunch now, but I think I was early. Josh: I think I might still have the first little tier thingy that they give you.

Josh: Oh, like from Trash Future way back in the day? Yeah. Josh: Yeah, yeah. It's funny now because there's actually nobody even on the stream Josh: anymore who is part of Trash Future. because now November's not really on it anymore. Josh: Mm-hmm. Me and Jay are big fans of Worst of All Possible Worlds. Oh, hell yeah. Jay: He quizzes me on factoids. Josh: From the show. Okay. You did the, what was it, the Sweetie Todd episode? Josh: Oh, yeah. That was a good one.

Jay: Because Tinder Subject, we did one as well. Josh: Oh, cool. Jay: Yeah. So I was like, do you remember on the Worst of All Possible Worlds when they were. Josh: Mentioning during that presentation? I'm like, no. Let's make sure that my soundboard's working. Josh: Mmm! So good and tasty! Josh: There we go. Jay: One day I will kill him over the soundboard, but maybe not today. Jay: It is good. See, you've encouraged me.

Josh: Someone who appreciates my soundboard, and I'm going to be using a little crazy. Josh: I mean, I would be a hypocrite if I were to discourage people from using a soundboard, Josh: given how our show operates. Josh: Like, every so often, I'll just be chilling, and Brian will hit me with a hee-whot, Josh: and then that's just, you know. Jay: I need to get that one. Josh: Behold, the atheist's nightmare.

Jay: Yeah, all three of us grew up. Some flavor of like evangelical or other weirdo Christian. Josh: So where are y'all from? Jay: I'm from Southern Illinois. So right in the Bible belt originally. Jay: Yep. Yep. I'm from Florida. Josh: So I grew up Southern Baptist. The, uh, okay. The fun ones to split off for the good reasons. Sadie: I'm in Western Washington, Seattle area. And I was raised Mormon. Josh: Oh, hell yeah. Jay: Okay, cool.

Josh: My entire exposure to Mormonism is basically through my friends who live in Utah. Jay: I used to live in Salt Lake City, yeah. Josh: Okay, yeah. As well as, of course, the classic movie musical, Saturday's Warrior. Sadie: Oh my god. Josh: Have you seen Saturday's Warrior? Sadie: My dad used to watch it every Saturday. Josh: Yes! Josh: This is great. We're learning new Sadie lore. These are they on Saturday. Josh: That is such a bad musical and so many of the songs are so good.

Josh: Like, better than they have any right to be. Josh: Alright, we'll get started. Cool. Thank you. Jay: Oops. Jay: Fade out too soon. I switched the soundboards so I had more of my stuff. Jay: And I didn't realize I was going to shut the sound off. Jay: Leave it. Sadie: Technical difficulties. Jay: All right. I'm Justin. I'm a free agent. My pronouns are he and they. I'm Sadie. Sadie: I work IT at a public library. And my pronouns are they, them.

Jay: I'm Jay. I'm a cataloging librarian, and my pronouns are he, him. And we have a guest. Josh: Would you like to introduce yourself? Yes. Hello. My name's Josh. Josh: I am the son and grandson of librarians, though I am not a librarian myself. I use he, him pronouns. Josh: Nailed it. Yes. Jay: You did it. You get a gold star. Josh: Thank you for your support. That's right, boys. Jay: Mondo cool. Oh, no. He's going to be on what this is. i'm really excited.

Josh: I'm getting the feeling i've made a terrible terrible mistake. Jay: Yes no no this is good people love this nice i'm the podcast favorite, Jay: sure okay well we are going to talk about the patmos public library but, Jay: and move to another state uh so yeah that's that's what's happening there uh shit's bad if. Sadie: You live in iowa write to your representatives immediately by. Jay: Gun you can do that. Josh: In iowa haven't.

Jay: Said it in 10 episodes or so so we're back to form i don't have a job i can't Jay: get yelled at for getting my Twitter deleted at work. True story. Jay: Somehow. It's true. I don't talk about anything I do on social media at work, Jay: but I must have mentioned it once, Jay: And it's like the library director quit. And I was like, you're going to have to be more specific. Josh: A lot more specific than that. Yeah. Jay: You got to really narrow it down there, buddy.

Josh: No, this was kind of the OG, like, Josh: banned library controversy because of the way that they had the millage, Josh: they failed to pass the millage renewal, that ended up shutting down the library, Josh: and this was one of the first ones that made the news in a national way, Josh: especially because it's a connection to the book Genderqueer and all that sort of thing.

Jay: Yeah, I have had a Google alert running for a while now. And so I just, Jay: Massachusetts who looks at my Texas ID and goes, oh, Texas. Jay: That was the news. Josh: Is that the typical voice that people normally make when you talk about Texas? They go, Texas. Yeah. Jay: Or every time I'm like, my boyfriend lives in Texas, they're like, oh, and I'm like, yeah. Jay: They really do. They have like such a visceral reaction.

Jay: Like I go to the weed store and I show my ID to get into the weed store and Jay: they're like, oh, the scanner's not working. It must be because it's a Texas ID. Jay: Or we remember we were at the we were at the Sam Adams Brewery and it said, Jay: who's traveled the furthest to be here tonight? And I won. Yeah. Jay: Because he's like, unfortunately, it has to go to the guy. Josh: I'm not Greg Abbott. Get off my dick. So I don't know what Texas did to you,

Josh: but it is worse to the people who live there. Is it? Do you recommend? Josh: Not if you're trans, no. Okay. What about just like in general, Josh: like if you're not trans or? Josh: I live in a very interesting part of Texas, so I live right on the border. Josh: And so it's very culturally distinct from the rest of Texas.

Josh: Texas is basically like three or four states. So I would say like. Josh: Until recently. And then the moment they started paying attention, they started winning. Josh: So... Well, that's definitely a commonality between I think Texas and the great Josh: state of Michigan, which Michigan is... Josh: Really three states in one, maybe four if you can, like the thumb is also sort of its own thing.

Josh: But yeah, you've got West Michigan, Eastern Michigan, and then everything from Josh: like the tip of the mitten up through the UP. Josh: For all intents and purposes, those are basically three different states that Josh: all happen to share a government. Yeah. Josh: Many such cases. I mean, I grew up in Florida, so I'm used to like big crazy Josh: states. So it's, you know, Miami's its own thing. Tampa's, Josh: like my heart's beating at 10 seconds after conception and Jesus loves you.

Josh: And you start seeing those. He loves you a lot. I love the ones that are just Josh: like, remember Jesus? I'm like, I too remember Jesus. Jay: Whatever happened to that guy? Where'd he go? Sadie: Long time no see. He hasn't dropped an album in a while. Josh: Main stage at the Grammy Awards. Folks, he's back. You might remember him. Josh: He's our Lord and Savior, best known for dying on the cross roughly 1,980 years ago.

Josh: Folks, give it up. Give it up for Jesus Christ back here on the track. Josh: Rome thought they had him beat. I'm turning my chair around. I'm turning my. Jay: Hat and my chair around. I'm straddling the chair and I'm saying, guys, you know who else. Josh: Gets knocked down and he gets up again? You're never going to keep him down. Jumbawamba, yeah. Josh: You know, I guess I should just sort of clear a few things up top here, too.

Josh: You know, I'm excited to be on here to talk about library shit, Josh: because even though, as I said, I am not a librarian myself, Josh: it has always been something that's been a part of my upbringing. Josh: You know, my mom is a children's librarian. I grew up reading books. Josh: I grew up going to the library. Josh: Some of my best friends, because I was a weird little, you know, Josh: shrimpy kid, some of my best friends were the librarians at my local public

Josh: library. So this sort of thing really matters to me. Josh: And so with the story of the Jamestown Library specifically, Josh: it's one of those things that runs up against both my sort of cultural, I guess, milieu, Josh: what I grew up with, as well as the political landscape that I care about a Josh: great deal that I also talk about a fair bit on my own podcast.

Josh: And so I'm excited to kind of get into it and talk a little bit about this sort Josh: of individual case study in a library in a small conservative community and Josh: why I think it matters, not just as an individual example, Josh: but also as one emblematic form of a battle that is happening all over the country. Josh: Yeah. And why don't you go ahead and tell us your back, you know, Josh: a little bit of background about Ottawa County? Sure.

Josh: Well, so this library that we're going to be talking about today is called the Josh: Patmos Public Library. Just want to clear that up. That's the pronunciation. Josh: I've heard a lot of different pronunciations. They are all incorrect. Josh: The correct pronunciation for this thing is Patmos. Josh: And it is located in a county called Ottawa, the county of Ottawa in the state of Michigan. Josh: And basically, that county was settled by these ultra conservative Dutch Protestants

Josh: beginning in the mid 1800s. And so the whole reason it's called Ottawa County Josh: is that those, of course, are the people who were displaced. Josh: There are still some Ottawa people who live in and around the area. Josh: But yeah, that was the land that got expropriated. Those were the people who Josh: it was expropriated from. Josh: And Ottawa County is, I would say, really the beating heart of Republican politics today.

Josh: In West Michigan. When it comes to your standard issue, Republican freak, right? Josh: They probably, if they're in Michigan, they're probably either from that area Josh: or they are connected to people who are. Josh: That is where the power center is. It's the DeVos political machine, Josh: Betsy DeVos. She came up out of there. She cut her teeth there. Josh: She's probably the best known example of the type of guy who emerges from Ottawa County.

Jay: So we can like solidly blame the Dutch for this is what you're saying. Josh: Hundo P, yes. I mean, it is pretty much the entire communities that settled Josh: there originally were all these ultra hardcore Dutch Protestants who wanted Josh: to set up their own basically ethnic enclave in Michigan and successfully did so. Josh: And so the politics of the area are all drawn along those lines.

Josh: Ottawa County went 59% Trump in the most recent election, but Jamestown specifically, Josh: which is the township that we're going to be talking about today, Josh: it is basically a subdivision of that county. Josh: They're called townships in Michigan if they're unincorporated land and not Josh: like an actual city proper. Jamestown is in the southeast corner of Ottawa County, Josh: and the township went 75% Trump in the last election.

Josh: And if you look back at the past few elections, that's pretty much been the Josh: margin, is around a 50% margin. So it should give you a good sense of kind of what this place is. Josh: Up yours, woke moralists. We'll see who cancels who. You're goddamn right, Jordan. Josh: They did say that. Available for kissing practice. Jay: On a portable Nintendo. though. Justin, how many fucking...

Jay: Kermit fuckhead sound drops you have do not play them all that i asked for a count, Jay: i i think that's just us too okay i have to start. Sadie: Supervising the soundboard. Jay: It's like i'm cutting you off if we had a dedicated soundboard person i'd be Jay: okay with that just someone just to come in and hit the ham horn every once Jay: in a while just justin stop we keep on track, Jay: I've barely been using the soundboard. I don't know why you're complaining now.

Jay: So you have a little thing here about cultural conservatism. Josh: In Michigan and how it's a little different from other parts of the county. Josh: Yeah. I mean, it's worth noting that there are some commonalities about cultural Josh: conservatism, no matter where you are. Josh: The fear of the outside world is kind of the big thing.

Josh: And that's the whole reason that these people settled down in michigan in Josh: the first place was they wanted a place where they could be cloistered from the Josh: pernicious influence of the other people in the netherlands Josh: who were becoming i guess too liberal or whatever um but Josh: but but there's also a really strong tradition of i wouldn't call it intellectual Josh: curiosity exactly but it's this idea that like we need to have records of everything

Josh: those records need to be well maintained and people need to be able to have Josh: access to those records. Josh: Which, again, I just chalk up to kind of being Dutch. Josh: Like, that's a big piece of what it is to be Dutch. Josh: But that's the one thing about all of this that makes it a little bit different. Josh: And that's why, you know, it's like, well, why...

Josh: Why is there this really strong tradition of like really good public libraries Josh: in these very conservative parts of the state? Josh: And in West Michigan in particular, the answer is, well, because they're Dutch, genuinely. Josh: And this is also where I should note that I grew up in Kent County, Josh: which is the next county over from Ottawa. Josh: And I actually spent much of my childhood in Ottawa County, specifically along Josh: the lake there, Lake Michigan.

Josh: And this is the part where I reveal that the Patmos Library, Josh: the reason I can pronounce Patmos so well, is that it is the name of my great Josh: uncle, Marv, who endowed the township with $1 million to build a new library back in the year 2000. Josh: So, I know. So when I heard that, you know, this was happening not just near Josh: my hometown, because I grew up in Grand Rapids, but also was specifically affecting. Josh: It would be an exaggeration would say like my family's legacy.

Josh: But it is something that is directly personally connected to me because a little Josh: bit about Marv, basically his whole deal was he never got past the eighth grade, Josh: but he was able to learn a lot by reading. Josh: And so he was like, well, other people should be able to do that too. Josh: And that's why he endowed the library.

Josh: Yeah. Many such cases. I wonder also if, because I did see in the various news, like local news. Josh: History of the university that they put out, but they had to take that out. Josh: But the historians who wrote it left it in a footnote because historians are really funny like that. Josh: In the case of the Jamestown Township Library specifically, it was just built Josh: as a standard issue public library in 1965. Josh: So it's been a public library for its entire existence.

Josh: The donation was basically just so they could build a bigger building. Yeah. Josh: To the point of like, I guess, the cultural homogeneity or lack thereof, Josh: it is fair to say that that part of Michigan is almost exclusively white and Josh: specifically ethnically Dutch. Josh: When you get into the bigger cities, specifically Grand Rapids, Josh: there's a fair more diversity. Josh: But I would say that historically, these are communities that were extremely homogeneous.

Josh: Yeah. And I think a lot of people take that for granted when they look at the Josh: history of their area and go, well, it didn't. Jay: Really happen here. It's like, yeah, there's reasons. So the initial complaints Jay: about this, about Patmos was over genderqueer. This, Jay: was removed from the shelves and put behind the counter and since they had went Jay: ahead and capitulated opponents formed a group the jamestown conservatives who Jay: suggested the library was grooming.

Josh: Was real big it was it was the new gritty and everyone was hitting it and they Josh: were saying yeah and so they said let's let's vote against the millage and.

Jay: These come up in the book ban news as often so Jay: i figured i'd go ahead and mention those this also reminds me like Jay: this is like so retro almost like this Jay: reminds me of in john waters or john waters this Jay: sort of like stand-up lecture this filthy world that Jay: he gives he talks about when he was younger all the dirty books he wanted to Jay: read were always behind the counter and they said sea librarian in order to

Jay: read them and he would go steal those books and like gone are the halcyon days Jay: where you could find the naughty books in the sea librarian section like this Jay: just feels so retro it's so stupid. Josh: I think it's also worth noting in terms of like the millage itself that because Josh: Jamestown is a township and not a city, taxes are very low there. Josh: And the millage itself is not a meaningful tax.

Josh: You know, we're talking about like two hundred thousand dollars ish split across Josh: maybe ten thousand people. Josh: But it's it's not not anything. And this is a hardcore anti-tax kind of area. Josh: So I think that does play into it as well. Yeah. Josh: And I mean, speaking of old school, when I was going through a lot of local stories, I saw like, Josh: to, what is the site? Bridge, Michigan, bridgemi.com.

Josh: Bridge is a really, really good publication for like local progressive news. Josh: Yeah. It's a lot of their articles go into way more depth than you expect they're. Jay: There were too many books written by Jewish people was one of the complaints. Jay: I mean, we're hitting classics. Jay: And so it was a really nice roundup of like some of the complaints that people were coming in. And the, Jay: I need to show up and vote no and put a giant sign in my yard that says.

Josh: Hang on, let me get the exact word. I've got it right here. Jay: It's a great sign. Josh: 50% millage increase. And that's all caps in red to groom. Josh: Groom that's also all caps and it's much larger font our kids vote lowercase vote no on library, Josh: exactly vote no on library is very funny to me it has the feeling of look at Josh: banner michael from arrested development you. Jay: Know you've got a winning campaign when you're like vote no on da library. Josh: On library.

Jay: On library. There's no like, and this is like, okay, so to everyone who makes Jay: goofy little protest signs so that you'll get on like Instagram or whatever Jay: when you go to a march, stop that shit. Jay: Make concrete demands and they're not even doing it right because they don't Jay: have the like number of the proposition or whatever. Jay: You got to give people specifics. Vote no on number eight. Boom. Jay: Solid. Too many words.

Josh: Anytime you see anything about a library anywhere, you need to vote against it. That's the rule. Jay: Yeah. So, yeah, we've talked about millage votes before in the past and some Jay: of the contentious fights that tend to accompany, Jay: threaten to torpedo it and...

Jay: Yeah, so you get a lot of that. Now, Jay: Josh, do you have any ideas if book bans or challenges, like I'm assuming they Jay: happened at this library before, but do you know, like, was it different kinds Jay: of books or coming from different people before then? Jay: Like, usually challenges happen at schools, but I don't know if you knew. Josh: I don't know specifically in this case.

Josh: I do know that there are this this came off the back of a lot of other action Josh: going on nationally, particularly like right after the acute period of the pandemic. Josh: There was that period of time where the schools were still not open and it was Josh: like, open the schools that that agitation ended up being a very effective form Josh: of organizing for the reactionary. Right. Josh: Obviously, moms for liberty groups like that.

Josh: And this particular situation, I don't know if it was spearheaded by moms for Josh: liberty, but it was groups like that that were providing a lot of the ammunition Josh: in terms of going out there. Josh: And making the message. They were definitely getting assistance from that sort Josh: of grassroots, quote unquote, but really astroturfing type organizations. Josh: Yeah, highly astroturfed. If you look at the rhetoric that was being used,

Josh: it all aligns with the Moms for Liberty playbook. But like I said, I don't know. Josh: I can take a look and see if there's actually an explicit connection there. Josh: But if you look at the videos of the people at the town halls and shit, Josh: it's all the same talking points. Josh: Yeah, we did an episode on Moms Josh: for Liberty, and I really dived into their connections. And essentially. Josh: Up his campaign filings and couldn't spend his money?

Josh: So that's where a lot of this money went, was to funding other groups like Moms Josh: for Liberty, and they have a project called Moms for Libraries. This also. Jay: Brave Books, which I believe is, Jay: What's the left behind guy? Oh, what is his fucking name? Josh: The guy who wrote it? Jay: Or Kirk Cameron? Kirk Cameron. Josh: Friend of our show. Friend of the worst of all possible worlds. Jay: Kirk Cameron. I love the left behind movies. They're so bad.

Jay: He was involved in that and then there was some other stuff that all kind of Jay: came together into this kind of ball of anti-library stuff. Were you showing us Arthur? Jay: Yeah, look how cute he's been. being on my body pillow. He's sitting like a little guy. Josh: There's a cat over on the pillow. This is an audio-only medium, Josh: but we're looking at a very cute cat. Jay: Yeah, as library punk heads know King Arthur and how cute he is.

Jay: Yeah, so that's a lot of where Moms for Liberty comes from. I did a real deep dive. Jay: For like talking points and placards. That's their membership because it's free to be a member. Jay: So and they also say they make all their money from T-shirt sales. Josh: Which is impossible. It's not too much money. Worth noting also that we on our Josh: show talked about a few years ago now a show called or documentary rather documentary Josh: and heavy air quotes called Whose Children Are They?

Josh: And this was one of many examples of propaganda that is intended to make people Josh: agitated against teachers, Josh: but in a way where they think they actually like love their teachers. Josh: So much of this actually ends up being anti-union propaganda, Josh: though, at the end of the day, which is really interesting. Josh: The culture war side of things is tied right in with a strong, Josh: strong distaste for the power of the public sector.

Josh: And a fair bit of this culture war is just really craven politicking, Josh: where reactionary conservative operatives are finding ways to put in a wedge Josh: around fears of things like gender and sexuality to drive a campaign to de-unionize schools. Josh: And expel, of course, librarians and stuff like that, which I'm sure you all know very much about.

Josh: I'm just pointing it up for the sake of making the connection that this is as Josh: much an anti-labor thing as it is an anti-culture thing. Jay: Because like most of the time when people say that they love their libraries Jay: and everything, oh, we love the library. The library is great. Jay: They don't give a shit about the people who work there.

Jay: It is so often, especially this is true in academic libraries a lot, Jay: when some entitled faculty member learns that you're getting rid of their special Jay: journal that is their baby that they've been published in twice, Jay: but nobody else has ever. Jay: And you tell them like, well, we can't afford it in the budget because the state won't give us more. Jay: We can't get more money and these get more expensive. And they're like, Jay: well, then why do we need you?

Jay: Yeah. What do you do? We have Google. like like Jay: so like in academic libraries some faculty would Jay: rather just have their journal subscriptions than have people Jay: working there this is why this is an anti little free library podcast by the Jay: way because those things obfuscate what libraries actually are and that libraries Jay: are about labor and not about fucking books thank you for coming to my ted talk

Jay: plus it's a company and you have to register with it and they just call the Jay: cops on black people who use them yeah well Well. Sadie: And that's why these political signs like vote no on library also just work, right? Sadie: Is because it's library as an entity and not library workers, right?

Sadie: But on the flip side, one of the library systems I used to work at, Sadie: when we went out for a levy for the first time in like a decade or more, Sadie: they actually really pushed the library worker angle. Sadie: Like these are the things that the people who work at your library, Sadie: who live in your community are going to get like raises and all of this stuff. And it worked. Sadie: So, yeah, it's like an interesting thing to see like, oh, yeah,

Sadie: vote no on library. What library? What vote? Sadie: You know, the entity that is the public library. I love the entity. Sadie: You know, that's the public library. And then it takes a lot of effort to get Sadie: people to, yeah, see the actual workers who are running the library.

Sadie: And that it's prevalent in public libraries. Jay: Too so now people think all Jay: librarians are either like us Jay: right where we're a bunch of like Jay: leftist troublemakers or they view them as like quirky progressives Jay: who wear lots of cardigans and all that like they're that usually people that's Jay: who a librarian is to people love a cardigan i do love a cardigan i've been Jay: cardigan pilled but like not all librarians are quote progressive right it's

Jay: like how you get nurses who are very anti-science and everything, right? Jay: So like in this area, where at Patmos, did I say it right? Patmos? You did. Josh: Patmos. Jay: Oh yeah, Patmos. Josh: The T is almost silent. Jay: Patmos. Yeah, it's like, you know, like Benton is where I grew up. Josh: Benton Harbor, yeah. Jay: Yeah, yeah. That's where I grew up. So yeah, just swallow it. Jay: But yeah, are the librarians at Patmos...

Jay: Where do they fall on this? Like the actual library workers who are receiving Jay: these challenges and have to deal with them. Jay: Like, are they like, yeah, we agree. These books are bad. Jay: Or are they like not? Josh: So they're cut from what I can tell. They sort of fall into the space where Josh: they're not really they're not radical lefties, but they're also not like reactionary freaks. Josh: Right. These are just people who care about helping kids read at the end.

Josh: Which is which is i think that's that's to Josh: me the common thing about like most librarians genuinely Josh: it's that it's just like yeah we want to help people get Josh: the resources that they want like that's the point of being a librarian and Josh: i know that it wore very very heavily on the people who were involved with this Josh: library to just have all of this ideological vitriol thrown at them because

Josh: these are not like deeply ideological people beyond just having a commitment to literacy Yeah. Josh: So library director Amber McLean resigned, I think prior to the vote, in the. Jay: She'd been harassed online and accused of indoctrinating children. Jay: And then interim director Matthew Lawrence resigned later. So their interim Jay: also left. I've also been accused of those things. Jay: I from I from what I was reading many people who were speaking up in favor of.

Josh: Leftist agenda is running the law in accordance with the way it's supposed to be run. Josh: Well, and something that I should note about Amber McClain as well is that she is a gay woman. Josh: Which, again, in the eyes of these people will make you a radical, Josh: radical ideologue just by virtue of your identity. Jay: She's not the groomer because of the books. She's the groomer because she's gay.

Josh: Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. So the deck was kind of stacked against her from the beginning. Jay: Yeah, no, I saw a couple of news articles about like trans, Jay: the very few trans library directors that there have been out there who have Jay: been resigning because of like either of their own volition or because the library Jay: board was like, you should probably resign like.

Josh: Well in this particular case the reason she resigned and this is just an article Josh: from the michigan advance uh apparently somebody came into the library in march Josh: of 2022 and said she was looking for the person she called quote that pedophile librarian and. Jay: And that's when all your library workers pull an i am spartacus and they all Jay: start doing that is what you do in that situation yeah it also mentioned how Jay: like the at the time of the the millage,

Jay: Bible and Ayn Rand on it. And it's like, you know, it's a conservative town Jay: library. Like, I don't know what they're really upset about. Jay: So the initial vote, voters rejected. Josh: For a millage ballot effort for three months from then, from what I understand. Josh: I'm trying to make sure that I'm not getting it wrong. No, that's correct. Josh: So that was on the ballot at the same time as the general election in 2022. Josh: So, yeah, standard November ballot.

Josh: That's the same ballot that all of the congressional shit was on. Okay. Josh: So, yeah, many people who said Josh: they voted to defund the library said they didn't believe it would close. Josh: They just wanted to send a message. I remember that. I remember that. Josh: That was the thing that drove me up the wall was like, what did you think would happen? Jay: Just surprise Pikachu. you like yep.

Sadie: Real yeah leopards eating face party going on there brexit energy so yeah i Sadie: mean obviously people got a little stir crazy and coven decided to to organize. Jay: Michigan library association which pointed out you know There was basically Jay: about five challenged books in total out of 90 books. Jay: It's less than 0.01% of libraries collection. And. Josh: Were giving donations to a GoFundMe from all across the world.

Josh: So this made the news. Something that I also wanted to note about this is that Josh: it's pretty remarkable, Josh: actually, that they were able to get this campaign together because generally Josh: speaking, when it comes to these campaigns in favor of book bannings, Josh: it's a very small handful of people, a very, very small handful of people. Josh: I'm sure y'all have talked about this before the people who are lodging these Josh: complaints it's literally like 10 people.

Jay: And sometimes they aren't even from right their Jay: district like part of like the whole moms for libraries monster Jay: liberty like campaign is like these like literally boiler plate like Jay: templates of like here's the email you send here's what Jay: you do find every public library you can so Jay: some libraries now to sort of weaponize like Jay: whole like hole up against these have started of putting Jay: like rules around like who can submit book challenges if a book is challenged

Jay: and we decide to keep it you can't submit another challenge to it you have to Jay: provide your library card number Jay: like all of this stuff because of this astroturfing that's happening and. Josh: I mean i i saw a talk that maya kobabe gave actually the author of genderqueer Josh: talking about this stuff. Jay: Uh and. Josh: And And that was a little bit after the whole thing had had come and gone. Josh: But I think it was before they successfully refunded the library.

Josh: Yeah, it was. It was right after the initial defunding, I think. Josh: Well, maybe not that exact talk, but I know that that was in the news soon after Josh: was authors were were standing up for this particular library. It was, you know, Josh: director quit, you know, I've, I've also seen footage of like library board Josh: meetings where, you know, the, the library director will give a speech right Josh: before they're about to have a vote on.

Jay: Apart because they happen way more often than you think. And the local news Jay: is kind of always a little surprised. Jay: It kind of always has a, oh, it's come to Grand Rapids. Oh, it's, Jay: someone I was following on Blue Sky and they just suddenly went like full Canadian nationalist. Jay: And I was like, that's not the right reaction to this. Just do an infinite jest Jay: and become a wheelchair Quebecois terrorist is all I got to say.

Jay: We're in the infinite jest timeline now. It's just going to get crazy. Josh: This is the year of the Depends adult undergarment. Yes. Jay: Exactly. Thank you. someone understands my annoying infinite Jess jokes. Always encourage him. Jay: No, so like with them being surprised that like, oh, it worked like so much. Jay: So like all of us growing up in churches, we know that this has been the game plan for decades.

Jay: Like in a very material political way, we are not surprised by this because Jay: we went to church and heard this shit when we were kids.

Jay: Like nothing has changed. It's just becoming true Jay: now but i feel like most people who are Jay: voting on this who maybe aren't in those like evangelical hotbeds Jay: or whatever like so much of it is just aesthetic Jay: to them they don't think through the materialism of it or if they do it's not Jay: going to affect them so that when it does happen it starts affecting them they Jay: just like don't know how to process that because uh aaron sorkin should be put

Jay: in the hag for the west wing because everyone thinks that that's how politics works right uh aaron. Josh: Aaron sorkin aaron sorkin should be put in the hag for the news. Jay: Uh actually aaron. Josh: Sorkin should be put in the hag for the west wing and then executed for the newsroom but. Jay: That's neither.

Josh: Here nor there i yeah exactly i think that when it comes to the evangelical Josh: approach to all of this the other thing that is worth noting is that the evangelical the Josh: standard ish kind of evangelical way of seeing the world cannot understand what Josh: it would be like to live life outside of the loving arms of the church.

Jay: Right. Josh: Um, Josh: And so this is the thing that a lot of people have difficulty understanding, I find, Josh: is they'll be like, wait, but why can't they just be okay with other people Josh: living their lives the way that they want to live them and then keep their very Josh: doctrinaire prescriptive worldview sequestered to their own lives? Josh: And the answer is they don't think that that boundary exists. Josh: Genuinely, it is not something that conceptually makes sense to them.

Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the politicization of evangelicals was, again, a reaction to Act. Jay: I mean, evangelicals have always kind of been certain types of voting blocs, Jay: not always in bad ways, but particularly post-civil rights era. Again. Josh: Like 90 million year old woman because this is Florida and a church. Josh: So, you know, this woman's like 10 years older than God.

Josh: And she was like we need to take our country back and i was like okay where Josh: to go like we're still in we're still in pasco county florida like we're we Josh: are the pasco county once in a while gets in the news for like spying on kids. Jay: Politicization is people don't really understand that this has all been well Jay: organized and this has always been the plan.

Jay: Go get on your library board, go to the meetings, vote and shit, Jay: bank public opinions, harass people with their cars after. Jay: Get shit done. Yeah, we did have people on not that long ago with Right Dad Jay: talking about the particular library. Jay: But that was particularly more worker-focused. That was, you know, Jay: they were really trying to discipline their workforce. Jay: So the second vote went. Josh: And total turnout was 5,400. So it was a higher turnout.

Josh: Which makes sense, because it was a congressional election year in the general election in November.

Josh: So, yeah. So the third vote, much lower turnout because it's not a congressional Josh: election year. So the vote is. Jay: Put stickers on the cover pages of controversial books.

Jay: This is shit we talked about in like cataloging Jay: 101 the labeling of books and Jay: is it good or not and usually the ethics questions that Jay: we would get are for a creationism book how do you classify that do you put Jay: that in the non-fiction section or in the fiction section like do you go by Jay: what it claims to be or what you believe it to be or for like memoirs that are Jay: then revealed to be a total piece of crap. Jay: Fabricated. What do you do with those?

Jay: Labeling books like this is incredibly antithetical to library and ethics as Jay: they currently stand because they're making a judgment call about.

Jay: Book like there's a difference between like a Jay: librarian and or a publisher being like Jay: here's the age appropriateness for this book Jay: because this is very common with like as i'm sure your Jay: mom knows like grade school level there's like Jay: age five to whatever this to whatever because it's often like reading Jay: levels right right and that's important to Jay: know especially if you're a parent you need to be able to go in the catalog and

Jay: filter it for just that age group because your Jay: kid doesn't know this word yet right so like that Jay: that's fine that's not like a controversial type of Jay: labeling and like libraries have explicit materials Jay: like romance novels are a thing that Jay: are in libraries and they're just in Jay: a specific section like kind of a lot of libraries are going Jay: towards the more like genre model like bookstores are sometimes

Jay: whether it's like oh here's the fiction but here's like the mystery and thriller Jay: and here's the romance or whatever within fiction Jay: that's also fine and not controversial this Jay: is controversial because you're making Jay: a judgment call about it but also where does this stop right Jay: this is one reason i have an issue with the harmful language statements that Jay: libraries do i know they're coming from a good place and some of them are done

Jay: very well but who gets to decide what causes harm and to whom and who are they Jay: making that decision for. Josh: I completely agree. And this is something that I mean, just for reference here, Josh: my world is the world of theater.

Josh: That's that's what I do outside of my podcast. I make shows. I do theater. And I, Josh: It's it's a similar kind of situation where I'm like, if a playwright wants Josh: to say, hey, as a heads up, my play contains this, that and the other thing you should be aware. Josh: Obviously, that's fine. I'm not I, you know, I think it should be that way.

Josh: I think that there are accessibility questions about like if I'm directing a Josh: production and it contains some flashing or like loud noises or whatever. Josh: I want people to be aware of that. That's something that it's not, Josh: it's not like an ideological thing. It's just a, hey, you should know. Josh: And if this is too much for you, then it's probably a good thing that you're not seeing it, you know?

Josh: But then there's the other side of it, which is at what point do these content Josh: advisories or whatever just become a further way of cleaving acceptable information Josh: from unacceptable information? Jay: Yes. Josh: And that's something that scares me. And I think it happens a lot in theater Josh: too, actually. I think that there are a lot of shows now. There is a tendency as well in theater. Josh: We love how liberal theater is. Oh, God.

Josh: This idea of, well, we need to protect people's sensibilities, Josh: but there are times at which that's probably not the approach that you want Josh: to take. There are times where it's good to be confrontational. Josh: There are times where I think it's important to surprise people and catch them off guard. Josh: And there's a way that you can do that where you're taking care of your audience, Josh: of course, taking care of your readers.

Josh: And all of the books that have been targeted for banning, I think, Josh: do that very effectively. But... Josh: Yeah. At what point are you becoming the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable content? Jay: I'm actually going to be going on Friend of the Pod, Here Be Media slash The Jay: Left Page next month to talk about the opera Don Giovanni and stagings of it Jay: like in a post-MeToo world because so much opera is trying to do the reparative thing.

Jay: And some has done it very well, like Boston Lyric Opera just did a really good Jay: production of Madama Butterfly. Josh: Oh, interesting. Jay: Um, that like took a couple of years of doing like focus group testing with Jay: like local Japanese American, like advocacy groups. Josh: Oh yeah. Jay: Boston. Josh: And you need serious dramaturgy to be able to pull something like that off too. Josh: You need a dedicated dramaturgy, you need dedicated creatives.

Josh: Like that takes a lot of work. Jay: And then they said it in internment camps. Josh: Okay. Jay: And said like that, that's how they changed the setting and everything. Jay: And they, but they like worked with the local community around this. Jay: And like, I feel like that is actually a very successful example of the like, Jay: let's do something challenging, but being reparative at the same time. Jay: Sometimes it's like, oh, let's this thing is harmful and bad.

Jay: Let's girl boss this up because it's misogynistic usually. Jay: And it completely misses the point that the original was trying to make first Jay: off. But then it just is somehow worse. Josh: Or it's just like Two Gentlemen of Verona, but woke. And it's like, Josh: but we don't need to do that play anymore. It just sucks. Josh: Sorry, Willie, you blew it with that one. Jay: Not your best one, Will. Josh: He was not bringing his best that time around. It was his first play.

Josh: It has a lot of first play problems. And it's deeply, deeply misogynistic. Josh: But I'm off on a tangent about Shakespeare now. No, I love talking about Shakespeare. Sadie: Especially when it comes to these content warnings. things like like i think Sadie: justin said earlier like the bible was also on display right so it's like yeah it's. Jay: The most challenged book usually.

Sadie: Yeah and it's like they don't even realize that their own bullshit can be targeted Sadie: for this so it's like of course you know that whole liberal gotcha well the Sadie: bible contains you know rape and whatever so let's put a content warning on that ha ha and I'm like. Josh: Thank you, Aaron Sorkin. Jay: That's some Aaron Sorkin-ass shit right there. Sadie: It's like, I'm just like, it is not the gotcha that you think.

Sadie: It's actually just playing right into the way that they think about this kind of stuff. Sadie: So that always irritates me when I see that argument when it comes to content warning. It's like, Sadie: Show me a thousands-year-old book that doesn't have something incredibly cringy Sadie: about humanity in it. Go ahead. Jay: It's like to every—people listening, listen to me right now.

Jay: To every single one of you who, when the executive order around trans people Jay: went out, and you went, oh, well, technically, it lists conception. Jay: We're all a fucking zygote. So we're all nothing. We're all women. You owe me $10.

Josh: Dollars just saying Josh: facts and logic didn't win your way through that one yeah no Josh: i no it's stupid but i guess this is Josh: the other side of it though that i that i did want to talk about briefly is Josh: that at the end of the day a public library does have to comport to the community Josh: standards of a given community and that's what makes this whole situation so Josh: difficult like yeah i i opened by talking about the political composition of Jamestown.

Josh: Again, 75% Trump and some of the most annoying Christians you'll ever meet because Josh: you're going to have to find a way to work within the confines of that society, of that culture.

Josh: And I don't like this solution, but at the same time, I do think that it's better Josh: than not having a public library. So I don't know how to square of the circle on that one, genuinely. Josh: Yeah. And I mean, that's, I mean, one of the things which this particular library workers.

Josh: What it is it also invades on the privacy of the reader because anyone can see Josh: that big yellow sticker on the front of your book and so anyone who goes to Josh: check out that book can then be bullied can get. Jay: This this solution is not a solution because all it did was segregate all the Jay: queer books in the library. Jay: Would rather have that than not have a library.

Jay: Like, again, I agree with you, Josh, there like it's better to have a library Jay: because this we can work with. Jay: Right. Like this is something that can be temporary. Jay: Right. What if someone just ripped all the stickers off? Sadie: I was just about to say that. Like, what if that just conveniently filled out and nobody noticed it?

Josh: I guess it depends on how the stickers are affixed. If they're affixed directly Josh: to the page, that can be difficult to do without tearing out a whole page. Josh: Another sticker on the sticker? Yeah, no. Jay: Get your free Palestine stickers out, put them on there. Josh: I want to be very clear. I'm not saying that this is a good solution. Sadie: No. Josh: I'm just thinking, what are the ways then that you can take this and organize around it?

Josh: Because I think that some people are going to see this as an acceptable compromise. Josh: And then if if you can get them to that point maybe there then is a way to continue Josh: forward from there but i don't know what that looks like other than yeah being Josh: like you know these stickers are stupid which which they are you know.

Jay: I mean one thing that they could do and honestly every single library in this Jay: country should be doing this if they haven't already been doing it or if they're Jay: doing it to do it more whatever patron data you are holding on to in your integrated library system. Jay: Which is a lot of it because like, sometimes it's helpful to know who the last Jay: person who checked out a book was because it didn't get checked in properly.

Jay: You can be like, hey, do you still have this? They go, no, I totally returned Jay: it. And then you go, okay, and you write it off. Jay: Like sometimes it's helpful to have that information. But in our current climate, Jay: you just need to be scrubbing everything all of the time.

Jay: So that even if someone does check out one of these Jay: like sequestered out pornographic queer Jay: books or whatever the fuck like then it's also not on their record after they Jay: return it so that if whomsoever politicians come and ask for that or if there's Jay: some sort of warrant out for it then it cannot like if you don't have that data Jay: it can't be given away to hurt people so you should at least also be doing that i.

Josh: Think that's a really good point that when it comes to just sort of our reading Josh: habits in general that's one of many things that will be subject to increased surveillance. Jay: And that's how they got kevin spacey in seven no lies but was it. Josh: How they got kevin spacey in real life. Jay: That's where i thought you were going with that because i forgot about seven, Jay: no i bring up seven all the time on this fucking podcast by the way i i did just want to.

Josh: Note as well to the point of like what kind of community jamestown is because Josh: i mentioned it a little bit earlier, but I went to the Census Bureau website, Josh: and it's shockingly white, even by standards of a place that's out in the middle of nowhere. Josh: 88.3% white alone, 2.5% native, which again, those would probably mostly be Josh: Ottawa people, 4.6% Asian. Josh: 2.9% two or more races, 6.6% Hispanic or Latino, 0.5% black.

Josh: So it's going to be hard to, I think the angle of we need to have things for Josh: everybody in our community is true. Josh: The problem is when you're dealing with as homogenous of a community as this Josh: is, I think it's very easy for people to take sort of the majoritarian approach Josh: and be like, well, doesn't represent most of the community, so why should I care? Josh: And again, that's obviously there are various moral and ethical imperatives for that.

Josh: But it's like, well, how do you I don't I this is the thing that I struggle Josh: with a lot is when the appeal is always to the will of the majority. Josh: And in this case, it's a majority in this area that is very much the minority. Josh: More broadly, you're still able to set up your very small fiefdoms. Josh: That's why the Dutch Protestants did what they did in coming over from the Netherlands to Michigan. Josh: And I think that getting information out to everybody is important.

Josh: The problem is that when you have people who will immediately shut down the Josh: possibility for that unless it's done on their terms, I don't know how you wrestle Josh: that back. I genuinely don't. Jay: Unions, rank and file stuff, build power, good collection development policies. Jay: I don't know. This is why cities don't have public pools. Josh: I mean, they lost that. Jay: Public pools disappeared all over the country after integration.

Josh: Have traditionally left libraries alone because of the reverence people have Josh: for books, a pseudo-religious reference.

Jay: That comes from Christianity. entity. And because of that, they see libraries Jay: as pseudo-religious organizations. Josh: Funded and then it will be left alone. And that, you know, that might be a good Josh: legislative fight to take up in the future. I also think there's something to be said for that. Josh: I think that there was a very specific cultural flashpoint regarding libraries Josh: and schools specifically that we're not quite there in the same way as we were a couple years ago,

Josh: which isn't to say that it's not still there. It very much is. Josh: And I know you all have firsthand experience with that.

Josh: But the like moms for liberty stuff they Josh: are not ascendant in the way that they were a few years Josh: ago and there is that there is that thing of Josh: like the most there's recency bias there Josh: where it's like the the most recent thing that you remembered is Josh: the thing that you need to care about and then once the status quo settles down Josh: sometimes you're able to push back and be like well now that this piece of it

Josh: is settled maybe we don't need the stickers anymore but again i don't know if Josh: that works i'm just kind of spitballing here books do get worn out and replaced Josh: so it's quite possible that within a. Jay: Let's just get rid of the rest of them and if if there's high circulation for Jay: a couple we'll get new copies Jay: I also think a lot of this is just like following the like theory of reproductive futurism.

Jay: Like this is when the Lee Edelman who lives in my head starts coming out because Jay: it's like so much of this is focused on the like hypothetical child capital C trademark, right? Jay: Of like, okay, these beautiful little white babies that straight couples need to have in the future. Jay: And while we're pulling our children out of the public schools because they're Jay: a bunch of commies who show them porn. So that's bad.

Jay: So we do homeschooling, but the public library still exists. Jay: And to most people out there, when they think of a public library, Jay: they don't think of adults using it. Jay: They think of children using the public library. That's what the public library is for.

Jay: Like every time I go to a fucking conference and there's a keynote and it's Jay: an author talking about how magical their public library was when they were Jay: a kid and how the children's librarian, no offense to your mom, Jay: Josh, was like the greatest person who like ever fucking lived. Jay: I like want to shoot myself because libraries are more than just.

Jay: Wow you want to shoot my mother unbelievable he Jay: did say that i i said myself but Jay: just god you Jay: are on that i just but it's Jay: just like people people god people have this idea Jay: of public libraries that they are just for children Jay: and so like the child loci Jay: is like at the public library right now Jay: but now it's like moving like well just trans people existing Jay: in public is now

Jay: like where the foci is like the transes are getting your kids and so like maybe Jay: it'll move away from libraries in particular but everyone should go read lee Jay: edelman and i feel like that will help get on the fuck them kids like mindset Jay: it helps i love being a hater and just being like Like, Jay: well, I don't care about your stupid, non-existent children who's not alive yet.

Josh: That's right. That's right. Speaking of hypothetical children, Josh: though, when we were talking about the accepting of the, Josh: okay, you want to control what your children read. Well, I want my children to read those books. Josh: And the only one who can tell my children what they read is me. Josh: And that's also bad. Children, as soon as they have a library card, should have free reign. Jay: For that of like 10 or 13, I agree.

Jay: But fine, I think children, from the moment they can read it, Jay: any book is a kid's book if the kid can read, right? Jay: That's the Mitchedberg joke. They won't understand the dirty jokes. Jay: It's fine. They won't get it. Or if they're upset by them. Josh: They'll put it away. Right. Kids, self-censor. Josh: They're like, I can't be reading about this. It makes me feel weird. I don't like it.

Josh: And they're not ready for it. But they know to do that. I think that's a really Josh: important point, actually. Josh: Because I remember reading books when I was younger. Josh: And every once in a while, I'd read one where I'd be like, wow, Josh: that's and this was not particularly like bad or disturbing stuff.

Josh: It was just stuff that I wasn't ready for, you know, stuff about, Josh: let's say, puberty, for instance, when I was still, I don't know, Josh: nine or 10, you know, like a little bit too early and being like, Josh: well, this is this is weird for me right now.

Josh: I'm going to put it away. But one of the great things about growing up Dutch Josh: Protestant in the great state of Michigan is that rather than accepting that Josh: as, oh, this is a little too early, maybe I can come back to it later, Josh: you develop a lifelong complex of guilt because you feel that you are filthy Josh: and wrong and you think that the thing that you have read has made you dirty. Jay: People underestimate the Protestant guilt. Josh: Yeah, they always do.

Jay: It'll fucking get you. Josh: It's a different kind of guilt from Catholic guilt. It's just entirely different. Jay: We can't get out of it. Sadie: Wait, let's not even get into the Mormon guilt here, man. Oh, my fucking God. Josh: It's not dissimilar. Yeah. From what I've heard, mostly around reproduction Josh: is my understanding with the Mormon guilt because it's a fertility cult. Sadie: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Or you could be a kid like me who's like really interested in the Bible.

Sadie: And then if you want to read something spicy, you just read the Song of Solomon again and again. Josh: And you're just like, oh, it says breast. Damn. Damn. Your breasts are like what? Josh: Two fawns? come on those those pomegranates i want to grab hold of one of those Josh: pomegranates baby come on put that shit in my mouth never. Sadie: Look at a grocery store produce section of the same again.

Josh: You want to put my lover is my breast actually at many times in jewish history Josh: they tried to remove the song of solomon. Jay: Jay's making a face because i'm talking about the bible uh they tried to Remove Jay: it because people would sing the Song of Solomon as a drinking. Josh: Song. Oh, hell yeah. How many y'all are massaging your breasts with myrrh? Jay: If I still had them. Every night. Me with my burr?

Josh: I no longer have them. Oh, okay. Well, I guess just your chest more generally. Josh: It's whatever. You just kind of take some burr. You throw it on your chest. You feel better? Jay: I have frankincense. Does that count? Josh: It can. Sadie: It can be gender neutral. Jay: Okay. Is that the frankincense poppers? Josh: No. Jay: You just have frankincense. I just have a frankincense oil roller. Jay: Oh, nice. I love the smell of frankincense. I also have frankincense soap.

Josh: But yeah, I mean, I think like, That that's a very just to go back to the previous Josh: point, it's well made that, like, in general, when it comes to framing, Josh: because I think framing is so important, you never, ever, ever want to buy into Josh: the framing of the opposition. Josh: That's it. That's one of the biggest things that we talk about on our show is Josh: the way that media frames up the way that you ought to see an issue.

Josh: And oftentimes it does it in a way that isn't explicit or even apparent. Josh: And the moment that it becomes a battle over what should your kids be allowed Josh: to do versus what should my kids be allowed to do? Josh: What are my parental ethics versus your parental ethics? Josh: Then it becomes a culture war thing. Because of course, if you are a liberal Josh: parent, your approach to parenting is going to be different from an evangelical Christian.

Josh: That's not going to be a fruitful. You're never going to be able to find any Josh: sort of common ground there because it's impossible to even meet at first principles. Jay: And people just don't understand evangelicals. Josh: No. Jay: They just don't. But it is also like this sort of anti-child way that. Josh: We think about children as well as we think of children as property and as extensions Josh: of their parents and, you know, child liberation.

Josh: So eventually in the. Jay: Will be. But I really hope that it's an uneventful vote. Jay: But it does look like they are, you know, they got funds from every library Jay: that they are allowed to distribute for different things. They were talking Jay: about how they were going to use that money. Jay: And this is, you know, I think I have a story in here somewhere of. Josh: That are having, yeah, Alpena Public Library was in Book Riot.

Josh: Lapeer Public Library in Michigan was also subject to a lot of this kind of stuff. Jay: Yeah, like how has this been affecting your mom? Josh: Well, that's an interesting question because my mom is not at a public library. Josh: My mom is the librarian at a Christian school. Jay: Oh. Josh: Oh, and, you know, she is doing her best to work within the constraints of that Josh: system, you know, because people are hyper vigilant right now against woke.

Josh: Right. And at the end of the day, I think as my mom sees it, Josh: her primary role is just to, you know, instill a love of reading in kids and Josh: give them resources that help them understand their place in this. Josh: But it turns out that any children's literature that even alludes to the idea Josh: of getting along with people is woke now. Josh: And so so it's actually proven quite difficult. Josh: I mean, you can see parallels to this in theater as well. Right.

Josh: Where the Kennedy Center, now that it is fully going to be like giving us whatever Josh: the Trump equivalent of Shen Yun is, I'm sure that's going to be really cool. Jay: Just Evita all the time. Josh: Yeah, exactly. The. Josh: At the Kennedy Center, they've been canceling programming for children. Josh: There was something about a shark that wanted to be friends with other fish. Josh: That's woke. Get it out of here. Jay: It's just the movie Shark Tale.

Josh: Look, you're telling me. So this is the other thing, I guess, Josh: about framing and rhetoric. Josh: I do think that there are ways that if you can present literature as something Josh: that has the ability to just connect people and tell fun stories, You can get pretty far, Josh: but it's always going to run up against a hard limit when it comes to things Josh: that are explicitly about gender, Josh: about sexuality, about race.

Josh: And at that point, within this mindset, this mindset that sees anything about Josh: that even tangentially has to do with an issue as a threat. that causes people Josh: to immediately go into a defensive crouch. Josh: And I don't know that there's any way to reason that. Josh: I think that you can materially obviously bring about change in your community.

Josh: There's some power in rhetoric, but at the end of the day, I think some of this Josh: does have to come about through sheer political force. Josh: I was going to say though, I would love to have your mom on the podcast. Josh: I know that would probably be a non-starter, but I wanted to do Yeah, Josh: I'm going to do a church libraries episode, Josh: and I suppose thinking now Christian schools as well, because I would love to Josh: talk about church libraries, modern church libraries.

Josh: We jump churches a lot. I don't really understand why. My grandfather was just Josh: very particular about where he wanted to go, and he was one. Josh: Not a common thing. And so wherever he went, he was in a position of leadership Josh: because he was funding that bitch. Sure. Josh: So he was always a deacon at every church we went to immediately because he.

Jay: Transported into this world where this narrator was and he wore like a turban Jay: or whatever, and he would tell them Bible stories. Josh: This like creepy strange man would tell you Bible stories. Jay: And then it would switch to the animation for the Bible stories. Jay: Like if anyone's gonna know it's gonna be josh that's kind of that's kind of Jay: why i brought it up because.

Josh: Um okay so i don't that that Josh: sounds kind of like something which i'm pretty sure is Josh: different which was a vhs series called secret adventures in which there was Josh: a girl who was like a babysitter and then she had two little kids who were in Josh: her charge and then they would imagine what it was like to be like i don't know Josh: fish or whatever and then they would learn a lesson because that would be in the world of animation.

Josh: And then the lesson that they learned in the animated world would help them out in real life. Josh: And so in this episode that I'm thinking of, the babysitter was running for Josh: class president at her school, but she was basically telling scurrilous rumors Josh: about her competitor, the other candidate that she was running against. Josh: And then they learned in the world of under the sea that if you tell rumors, Josh: then a shark kills you or something. It always seems to come back.

Jay: To sharks for some reason i don't know i don't know. Josh: That shark was not woke that shark was not woke that. Jay: Was not a shark no. Josh: That shark was telling scurrilous rumors. Jay: And ate you yeah i yeah i always wonder you know how. Josh: Library worker podcast, I think. Maybe I can get a universalist to come on, Josh: but they're just going to be hippy-dippy at me, and that's not what I'm looking Josh: for. Yeah, UU is sort of its whole own thing.

Jay: I know so many people in Massachusetts who grew up UU, and I'm like, no. Josh: I've had literal nightmares about getting stuck in UU services. Jay: Oh, God. Josh: Like, actual nightmares, where it's just like they're reading some fucking thing Josh: from, I don't know, James Madison being like, and people can work together. Josh: It's like, thanks. Shut up. Jay: It's like when I went out to the Bay Area and it made me feel conservative. Jay: I'm like, this is just too much.

Josh: Well, yeah. They're too woke out there is the thing. Jay: They're too woke out there. I need to calm down a little bit. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Go, go, go. Calm down. Eat some pomegranates. Josh: Rub a little bit of frankincense on you. Jay: Get some myrrh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh: I got a new strap-on harness. Jay: Oh, God. Jay: Do you know this josh.

Josh: No i mean i didn't i i didn't know that you got that but thank you for the information i. Jay: Can't wait to have your cock in my mouth. Josh: I'm going to give you. Jay: The blow job of your life blow job such great it's like senator or something.

Josh: Reading aloud some like challenged books okay Josh: so that hearing that is always my favorite thing is Josh: when especially when you get like the the like Josh: moms who like break down in tears because there's Josh: a book that has the word cock in it and they can't handle it and Josh: it's just and that's i guess that's the only other thing that i Josh: wanted to say is that the people who end up pushing these sorts of bands forward

Josh: the reason that they do it is that they are fundamentally uncomfortable with Josh: something about themselves that that's that's what it comes down and sometimes Josh: it's their gender sometimes it's their sexuality sometimes it's that they've Josh: always wanted to do something or see something but were never able to,

Josh: and so they want to make sure that nobody else can have that experience. But Josh: It all fundamentally comes down to this desire to make sure that nobody can Josh: experience the thing that makes them afraid. Jay: Yeah, it's like, I had to learn this, so you have to learn this. Jay: I got married at 18 and didn't get to live my life until I, Jay: That kind of story that happens quite a lot, quite honestly.

Jay: Practice saying cock while you're doing the dishes. Just like, come in, that'll help. Josh: So, I don't know. Maybe that's one other practical strategy. Josh: I don't know how practical it is, but just on an interpersonal level, Josh: just like getting it takes a lot of work. Josh: And it's not something that I'm personally equipped to do in my day to day life Josh: because I have too much of too much shit going on in my own life.

Josh: But like, see how much of what people are saying is just the first barrier, Josh: the first line of defense. Josh: And then by listening, try to actually get in there and see what's really going Josh: on, because that's going to take that's a lot of work. That's very hard. Josh: It's not for most people. Josh: And like I said, it's definitely not for me. But that's something that you can Josh: do outside of the more material.

Josh: It's like organizing stuff. There is research on this. And one of the things that is quite common is, Josh: what's called a worldview defense, which is a person will listen to you until Josh: you say something that directly challenges something they hold unchangeable about themselves. Josh: And the moment that activates, the conversation's kind of over. The good news is. Jay: There's also research that shows that repeated exposure to ideas that are different than them do.

Josh: People can change. people change throughout their whole life it's not over till Josh: it's over you know you know what might be a place for people to engage in stuff Josh: like that would be a local library just just just spitballing i'm. Jay: Sure there's a book or two that says cock in there. Josh: Maybe yeah in these unprecedented times i hope so the new testament exactly.

Jay: And it says ass and it has incest in there i was in a christian band called Jay: balaam's ass they made it change they made them you were They made him change it to. Josh: Balaam's donkey That sounds No, Balaam's ass is a good name Balaam's donkey is not I know, Josh: That sounds like a Depeche Mode cover band for some reason. It's probably not, Josh: but I would listen to a Depeche Mode cover band called Balaam's Ass.

Jay: It was fun. T made it really easy for me to do Depeche Mode at karaoke, Jay: so I think we can make this happen. Josh: It's fun, right? Jay: Yeah. All right. Well, that's everything I had in the notes. Jay: Josh, do you want to tell people where they can find you and what's. Josh: Coming up next for you? Sure. Well, yeah, no, I first of all,

Josh: thank y'all so much for having me on. This is something that I've been wanting Josh: to talk about for a long time, but I just wasn't sure where to do it. Josh: So it was like, oh, a library podcast. Perfect. Josh: I co-host a podcast called The Worst of All Possible Worlds.

Josh: Every week we talk about a different piece of media and we talk about the narratives Josh: within it, the explicit ones, the implicit ones, and just in general, Josh: how those media narratives shape the world that we live in. Josh: We cover a whole range of stuff where, you know, video games, Josh: movies, TV shows, the theater, pretty much you name it. We've probably covered Josh: something connected to something that you like.

Josh: So you can check us out wherever you get your podcasts. Josh: Worstpossible.world is our website. And we also have a Patreon, Josh: patreon.com slash worstofall, where you can get access to our premium episodes Josh: for the very affordable price of $5 a month. Josh: But if you're debating between that $5 and, I don't know, donating $5 to somebody Josh: in your community, please donate it to somebody in your community.

Josh: Find a library you can donate it to, you know? Yeah, which reminds me, Josh: this is the first episode since we did the Library Punk one-year fundraiser. Josh: Helps us keep the show running. And it's really made, it's really taken a whole Josh: load off my mind. Yeah, give the good hosts of this show your money. Josh: Do it. If you haven't already done it, do it. Just, I'm going to say it. Josh: Somebody's got to say it. Give them your money.

Jay: We never ask for money. We just like give shit away for free. Jay: We have like free stencils and everything. Jay: That's very librarian coded of you yeah yeah we're like fuck the police here's Jay: this for free we're gonna do Jay: consciousness raising you know and so we were like do we do a fundraiser, Jay: it was it was really because violet fox reached out as soon as she heard that i was unemployed.

Josh: And said hey do you need a fundraiser running i'll promote it and everything Josh: i said no no let me let me think about it for a little bit and i was like you Josh: know what'd be nice to cover is just the podcast. Jay: Bills for all of that. I was like, let's do this. Let's cover this for the next year. Jay: Over the course of a year, it's really not. It's also not too expensive. Josh: No, but it's more than it should be.

Jay: Especially we don't use it to its full extent. We do it so that we don't have Jay: to do the clappy thing. Anyway, thank you, Josh. Josh: So much for coming on. Thank you for having me again. Thank you all. This has been a delight. Jay: And thank your mom. Josh: Okay. Jay: She's out there fighting the good fight. Shouts out to your mom. Josh: Shout outs to Josh's mom. Let's go. Shout outs to my grandma, Josh: my dearly departed grandma.

Josh: Also a children's librarian who I just discovered. There are some writings of Josh: hers that are also available at a library that I wasn't aware of. Josh: So I'm going to be getting on that shit soon too. Very exciting. Jay: Hell yeah. Let us know. Keep us updated. Josh: It was her, her, her, her ladies Christian writing club. Ooh. Jay: Ooh. like that must be to be a fly on the wall all right good night.