Justin & Jay: The wikipedia says it's one of the best films of all time i noticed that it's Justin & Jay: very very encyclopedic of it yes scorsese is a huge kirsten the guy are you right sadie yeah good, Justin & Jay: I'll see you next time. I'm Justin. I'm a SCALCOM librarian. Justin & Jay: My pronouns are he and they. Sadie: I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they, them.
Justin & Jay: And I'm Jay. I'm a music library director, and my pronouns are he, Justin & Jay: him. Gender? What is it, Soviet Russia? Justin & Jay: All right. Big reaction from the crowd on that one. Justin & Jay: No guests we're doing a movie episode we watched the movie close up it's about Justin & Jay: a close-up it's hard to explain exactly what the movie's about in like a sentence we. Sadie: Just stared at a one guy in a close-up camera for like 45 minutes and that.
Justin & Jay: Was the film yeah it's that play that michael gambon did where he was just like Justin & Jay: framed in his face he had to stay exactly still and do all this acting i've Justin & Jay: never heard of that i've never seen it i have once again forced the podcast Justin & Jay: to watch an art house film yes well it's one of the greatest films of all time as wikipedia says, Justin & Jay: enrichment and art closures yeah this one admittedly is a bit of a stretch but
Justin & Jay: i'll make it work okay okay, Justin & Jay: you have to speak into a microphone for it to work you can't look around the room. Sadie: You're asking too much.
Justin & Jay: I have the worst mic Justin & Jay: discipline you know this you literally just turned your head to the side as Justin & Jay: you said that i had to get my water all right this will be fun all right what's Justin & Jay: this movie about jay all right so close-up is a 1990 film from iran that is Justin & Jay: more or less a docu-fiction about the instance of a man named Hossein Sabzian.
Justin & Jay: Impersonating or pretending to be, to this one upper-middle-class family, Justin & Jay: the director Mohsen Mahmoudov, and this reporter learning about it and breaking Justin & Jay: the story, and then his subsequent trial. Justin & Jay: And it's by Abbas Kiarostami. Justin & Jay: And basically, everyone in the film plays themselves.
Justin & Jay: So it's not a documentary about what happened. And it's not like, Justin & Jay: a unsolved mysteries reenactment kind Justin & Jay: of thing it's like a fiction Justin & Jay: like a drama film but starring like Justin & Jay: a based on true story kind of movie but Justin & Jay: everyone that the story is about Justin & Jay: those are also the actors they play themselves and that is the very simplified
Justin & Jay: version of it like there's this A lot of it is this trial scene that is shot Justin & Jay: on 16mm instead of 35mm, like the rest of the film. Justin & Jay: That is the, quote, documentary, quote, quote, quote, part of the film that, Justin & Jay: of course, is largely staged and scripted and influenced by the fact that there were cameras rolling.
Justin & Jay: So like it's this film that Justin & Jay: like sort of asks us to Justin & Jay: question like how you present truth and reality and what those things even mean Justin & Jay: very similar to some other films that we've watched on this podcast and that Justin & Jay: is the very short version of what this film is so yeah like i said it's directed Justin & Jay: Directed by Abbas Kirstami. Justin & Jay: All the people in the film play themselves.
Justin & Jay: And some cultural historical context, I guess. Justin & Jay: How much do you two know about the cinema of Iran? Sadie: Absolutely none. Justin & Jay: I know that A Girl Who Walks Alone at Night was filmed in the US because they Justin & Jay: couldn't film it in Iran. Justin & Jay: And it's an Iranian director. Yeah. That's a good movie. I'm going to mute myself Justin & Jay: again. Okay. Okay, so...
Justin & Jay: Media in iran both pre and post the the revolution i believe in like the late 70s early 80s yeah, Justin & Jay: has faced like a lot of censorship right Justin & Jay: you know does yeah does the Justin & Jay: film look favorably on the shah or Justin & Jay: does the film look favorably on the islamic Justin & Jay: republic or whatever famously in 2010 Justin & Jay: the iranian director jafar panahi was arrested
Justin & Jay: and put under house arrest for attempting to make Justin & Jay: a film about the 2009 election i believe Justin & Jay: it was and he was forbade from ever making a film more like touching a camera Justin & Jay: ever again and then having his son film on an iphone basically filmed himself Justin & Jay: around his house talking about this movie that he would make and then snuck Justin & Jay: the footage on a usb drive in a cake to the Cannes Film Festival.
Justin & Jay: Even in this film, there is mention of them wanting to go to a theater further Justin & Jay: away to go see this one film by Mahmoud Mubarak, I believe, because it's the Justin & Jay: less censored version, quote unquote. Justin & Jay: Obviously, from the West, the way that we hear about censorship in Iran is going Justin & Jay: to be very Orientalist. It's going to be very Islamophobic. Justin & Jay: But also censorship did and does happen.
Justin & Jay: There was a booming film industry, obviously, in the 70s and 80s, Justin & Jay: and still continues to be. Justin & Jay: But the Republic was pumping a bunch of resources into its film industry to Justin & Jay: have this almost nationalist cinema, kind of. Justin & Jay: And that is how we get the Iranian New Wave. So lots of national cinemas have a new wave. Justin & Jay: Infamously, there's the French New Wave, which I'm not a huge fan of.
Justin & Jay: There's a Japanese New Wave, there's a German New Wave, and I like the Iranian New Wave. Justin & Jay: Because when your national cinema faces various degrees and inconsistent degrees of censorship, Justin & Jay: what does or does not get censored, you start to start thinking about, Justin & Jay: well, what does it even mean to make a fucking movie? Justin & Jay: What does it mean to depict truth or to depict reality?
Justin & Jay: What does it mean to capture these things? And so one of the key things about Justin & Jay: the style of Iranian New Wave is this sort of documentary styling. Justin & Jay: Some people will call it cinema verite, and then the inner Werner Herzog in Justin & Jay: my head is like, no, we don't like cinema verite. Justin & Jay: It's very inspired by Italian neorealism and stuff like that.
Justin & Jay: I think it's Jafar Panahi, but it might be Abbas Kiarostami, Justin & Jay: or it might be Mahmoud Abbas. I forget which. Justin & Jay: But there's this one film that he was making with a girl on a bus. Justin & Jay: And in the middle of a take, she's like, I'm done. I want to go home. Justin & Jay: And takes all her shit off and goes to walk home, but still had her mic on.
Justin & Jay: And so they left her mic on Justin & Jay: and kept recording her as she was like walking home and that's Justin & Jay: in the movie right so like that's kind of Justin & Jay: what's going on with a lot of iranian new wave is this sort of like interrogation Justin & Jay: of what it means to make a movie in and of itself what does it mean to try to Justin & Jay: capture reality whether that be in a documentary style or in a fiction style,
Justin & Jay: I think is one reason I like it so much. Justin & Jay: Like this dramatic style like so Yeah, that's sort of like the background of Justin & Jay: the film and a little bit about Iranian New Wave and sort of why is this film Justin & Jay: the way that it, the way that, sorry, Justin. Justin & Jay: So, all the listeners at home are probably wondering, why are we talking about Justin & Jay: this on a library podcast?
Justin & Jay: Because we were bored. Well, yes. Didn't want to write an episode. Justin & Jay: So actually, I've got like three workings. You're just not done yet. We've been busy. Justin & Jay: I like with American Animals and F for Fate and even a little bit the the Bernard Hart song. Justin & Jay: Sorry, I have to mute myself while I talk because I'm like hearing myself.
Justin & Jay: Like i want to Justin & Jay: like relate this to like more Justin & Jay: broadly like information and media Justin & Jay: literacy as well as like our contemporary like media and news landscapes and Justin & Jay: how those are being talked about because i feel like this film and the way that Justin & Jay: it is a film and also the way that people People talk about this movie,
Justin & Jay: like, has a lot to say about a lot of stuff that's going on right now. Justin & Jay: I guess I should ask, what did the two of you think of this film as it was your Justin & Jay: first viewing of said film? I liked it.
Justin & Jay: I haven't seen it before i don't know a whole lot about iranian film i don't Justin & Jay: know a lot about film in general but i did like kind of snooping around while Justin & Jay: watching it and trying to figure out, Justin & Jay: because i knew going into it that everyone is playing themselves because Justin & Jay: you already told me about this movie and i knew that
Justin & Jay: there were going to be parts that didn't happen in real life and And that it Justin & Jay: was mostly just going to be a fictionalized reinterpretation with the added Justin & Jay: layer of reality of all the people who actually it's about are the actors. Justin & Jay: But they're actors playing themselves, which actually comes up in Close Up A Justin & Jay: Long Shot, which was made in 1996.
Justin & Jay: And there were interviews, people in Sabzian's current neighborhood. Justin & Jay: By this point his son is his other kid no longer lives with him so both of his Justin & Jay: kids are living with his ex-wife and he kind of lives alone and just goes to Justin & Jay: the movies whenever he can and works as a bookbinder part-time whenever he wants Justin & Jay: the money but he can see that's the library connection yeah. Sadie: There you go.
Justin & Jay: He's a very experienced bookbinder he Justin & Jay: just can't stop talking about up movies while he works apparently because Justin & Jay: they interview his boss and then people say well it Justin & Jay: seems like this is a con of him Justin & Jay: playing a nice person which is also said in Justin & Jay: the movie close-up when the family is asked if they want to withdraw their complaint
Justin & Jay: the younger son who is more interested in film says he's playing the part of Justin & Jay: a thoughtful person and i think other people, Justin & Jay: in real life in the 1996 well highly edited 1996 short film because you see Justin & Jay: tons of cuts especially when sabzian's talking because i think he tends to ramble Justin & Jay: he's just like me for real.
Justin & Jay: We're going to talk about whether this guy's autistic because i am really sure Justin & Jay: he is he's something he's definitely Justin & Jay: something but he's got a very strong special interest Justin & Jay: he speaks in quotes constantly Justin & Jay: he talks about how he can't fit in Justin & Jay: with society and that people don't get him he breaks Justin & Jay: up tolstoy in court yeah which i thought was hilarious i laugh every time he's
Justin & Jay: like it's tolstoy's day yeah so he's i don't know he's an interesting guy and Justin & Jay: i think it's totally possible that you know he is a compulsive liar but he's Justin & Jay: also being manipulated by the people Justin & Jay: making the film, particularly. Justin & Jay: That was Kierstami. Yeah. Kierstami because this guy's doesn't seem to be all there. Justin & Jay: I mean, obviously you can consent to be in a movie, but.
Justin & Jay: Could obviously be talked into doing this if even if Justin & Jay: he didn't think it would be very good in the long term but it seems Justin & Jay: also that his opinion about being in the movie changes based on Justin & Jay: when they interview him so he's like oh that was great my Justin & Jay: inner child was happy and then he's like you know Justin & Jay: i was being conned and i didn't you
Justin & Jay: know my i fulfilled one of my dreams and then he Justin & Jay: also says like you know i didn't i'm a Justin & Jay: victim of of being manipulated so he Justin & Jay: has he's definitely interviewed at different times Justin & Jay: a day so he's a very you know obviously interesting guy Justin & Jay: but he gives a really good performance which i Justin & Jay: find is very interesting because it seems like there are
Justin & Jay: cuts in close-up that you can see yeah like Justin & Jay: very obvious cuts that they didn't bother to reshoot yeah Justin & Jay: they're almost jump cuts yeah they're trying Justin & Jay: not to be but there's like no way to hide it and they don't counter Justin & Jay: shot which again i don't know why people don't do that more they should just counter Justin & Jay: shot and cut away from the cut but my critique
Justin & Jay: of quarriators right now is they keep doing obvious cuts Justin & Jay: when they have two cameras cut away and then cut the Justin & Jay: audio and shot counter shot charlie rose Justin & Jay: come on been doing this for Justin & Jay: 50 years that's why there's Justin & Jay: two cameras but i don't know Justin & Jay: i documentary film was such a fun thing because.
Justin & Jay: Like this is this is almost kind of true crimey in Justin & Jay: terms of oh this guy did a very petty but strange con where he just pretended. Justin & Jay: To be a director because he's obsessed with movies and the only thing he got. Justin & Jay: Was like cab fare one time it's extremely petty like offense.
Justin & Jay: So yeah like I don't know if like in Iran if like everybody lives in basically Justin & Jay: gated communities where like all of their houses have like gated yards and everything Justin & Jay: but at least the neighborhood where the Ahikaz live Ahikaz?
Justin & Jay: Yeah my pronunciation's bad on that one, Justin & Jay: they live in like behind gates and everything they're very like obviously upper middle class, Justin & Jay: and they're like this guy stole monty forrester cab fare jerry put him in prison Justin & Jay: literally he's in prison sadie what did you think.
Sadie: I i watched about the first half and then i took a break to do something and Sadie: i actually went over to my wife and was like this movie is really boring, Sadie: and i don't i don't necessarily mean Sadie: that as like a bad thing i think it's just i i Sadie: really didn't know what to expect watching a film Sadie: where people play themselves so it's Sadie: like obvious that they're not professional actors but it's kind Sadie: of documentary so they're not supposed to be and then
Sadie: it just throughout the film i just kept thinking like they're playing Sadie: themselves they're acting as themselves and like Sadie: having like this weird like sort of like disconnect moment Sadie: where i was just like i'm watching it i have the Sadie: suspension of disbelief that you have with you know watching fiction and that Sadie: kind of thing and then then i would be like no these are the actual people but
Sadie: this might not be what actually was happening this might actually be scripted Sadie: but how weird is it to sit in a courtroom and re-accuse somebody that you did this for already.
Sadie: Who supposedly conned you and your family and just Sadie: do it all over again if this is the way Sadie: that it it actually happened so i just kept Sadie: having those moments where it was like jogging back and forth Sadie: between like yes this is fiction but yes Sadie: this is also non-fiction in Sadie: an interesting way and like so like Sadie: while i was watching it i was kind of like okay there's Sadie: not a whole lot of plot here but that's
Sadie: kind of the point right so yeah it Sadie: was i was really interested in the courtroom Sadie: scene just because i i Sadie: know what cons look like a lot Sadie: of the time and the way that they kept asking him if he like intended on robbing Sadie: the family or like what were his intentions and pretending to be this director Sadie: and he kept giving answers that weren't like direct answers his. Justin & Jay: Hearst army scripted them. Sadie: Is that it? Justin & Jay: Yeah.
Sadie: Okay. Because I was just like, because that's a very con man thing to do. Sadie: But knowing it was scripted, I was like, is this how he actually talks about this? Sadie: Or is this, yeah, something like, or is this scripted to be, Sadie: you know, more challenging than perhaps a straightforward, yes, I'm guilty of this.
Sadie: And he kept saying, you know, I know that this looks like fraud from the outside, Sadie: but it wasn't from my perspective of things, Sadie: which I, yeah, I thought was a really kind of interesting way to put it because, Sadie: but that's true for a lot of con, for a lot of cons too. Sadie: It really is them playing a role and living it as if it is their lives to get Sadie: something out of it, even if they don't necessarily know what they're going Sadie: to get out of it in the end.
Sadie: So I think from that perspective of whether or not a crime was really committed was interesting.
Sadie: I also think that they kept asking him if he was intending on burglarizing the Sadie: house, but at the very beginning of the trial, Sadie: when he was like, I did not have that intention, I wasn't planning on stealing Sadie: or burglarizing the house the judge was like yeah you're not accused of that Sadie: stop talking about it but then they kept talking about it and he kept having Sadie: to be like no that's not what I was doing but yeah this.
Justin & Jay: Is why you have a right to an attorney in the United States because. Sadie: You can't. Justin & Jay: Just throw an uneducated person into a courtroom and then bombard them with questions.
Sadie: Yeah exactly and yeah so Sadie: it's like the the younger son is behind him Sadie: giving the story of what was happened they don't have Sadie: a lawyer you know sabzian doesn't have a lawyer there was somebody off camera Sadie: asking questions i couldn't tell if that was supposed to be a lawyer or somebody Sadie: else as part of the director is it the director okay yeah because yeah i wasn't
Sadie: sure what that was supposed to be but then they're like the judge is asking questions too and yeah, Sadie: It was very different than your usual court, like, American court scene. Yeah. Justin & Jay: And I mean, like, Islamic law proceedings are different. Justin & Jay: They are still very, like, democratic in a lot of ways. Justin & Jay: But they're, like, a 1,400-year-old, like, law proceeding, like, trial system.
Justin & Jay: I read in a review or something. But yeah, like...
Justin & Jay: To me so that that scene Justin & Jay: like it looks like it's like documentary right Justin & Jay: like it looks like like oh the rest of the film is like reenactment but Justin & Jay: this part you know they had to like get his trial date Justin & Jay: move to accommodate the shooting schedule and look it's filmed on the 16 millimeter Justin & Jay: instead of 35 millimeter and it looks all grainy and everything but like yeah
Justin & Jay: like kirastami scripted a lot of Sabzian's lines. Justin & Jay: I still go back and forth on I always get conflicting info on was that the actual Justin & Jay: trial scene or was that a recreation of the actual trial scene?
Justin & Jay: But regardless, apparently, Justin & Jay: Kiarostami, even in the trial scene, when it actually happened, Justin & Jay: scripted Sabzian's lines and also worked with the judge, Justin & Jay: to determine the verdict like the judge was like influenced by the director Justin & Jay: apparently the family was furious and even sabzian was like are you sure you Justin & Jay: don't want to put me in prison,
Justin & Jay: because he was very religious right he was like i should probably be in prison Justin & Jay: yeah and this isn't brought up in the wide shot short film long shot long shot, Justin & Jay: That, because in the movie you see that the trial gets moved up because he wants Justin & Jay: to get him out of prison kind of as like, you know, a favor to him.
Justin & Jay: And to accommodate shooting. I thought that was a lie. No. Justin & Jay: That was the excuse, because he said, I'll do what I can to help. Justin & Jay: Well, maybe it was both. It was a convenient truth.
Justin & Jay: We'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Yeah. But, yeah, Justin & Jay: where did you read that the actual trial itself, Justin & Jay: which we don't see because that footage is like gone or something or they just Justin & Jay: didn't want to use it, that the judge was influenced in the actual trial? Justin & Jay: I put it in the notes. It's close-up prison and escape on Criterion.com.
Justin & Jay: Also i made a note that in long shot they go to sabzian's it's not really a Justin & Jay: house it's more like his room and he has two books which is the quran and making films on super eight, Justin & Jay: which is very funny yeah it made me laugh because you just see the subtitles Justin & Jay: that's like holy quran making films on super eight that's it that's his two Justin & Jay: books in his room let's see do we want to go to this.
Sadie: One other thing that i thought Sadie: was really interesting was because the con was he was Sadie: pretending to be this director yeah and he told Sadie: the family that he wanted to use their house as a Sadie: setting for his next film and told i Sadie: think both of the sons that he wanted them he wanted Sadie: them in his in the film and he told Sadie: one of them the younger one i think it was that he wanted him to star in Sadie: the film right and during the scene
Sadie: where they kind of like his arrest is like reenacted Sadie: and he was at their house when he was arrested and the journalist Sadie: was present and taking pictures and that kind of thing and but Sadie: right beforehand he's talking to this to the younger son and he's like don't Sadie: forget we have rehearsal so like the son also obviously like he was also interested Sadie: in film as was sabzian and but here they are in a film talking about making
Sadie: a film that wasn't going to happen. Justin & Jay: And also they ended up being in a film. Sadie: Yeah. So I was just like, how much of this, like how, and near the beginning, Sadie: I think the father says something about like, Sadie: I did this to teach my family a lesson, implying that like his family was too Sadie: easily conned by the idea of being in a film. Sadie: So it makes me wonder how much influence that had in the making of it.
Sadie: Like we'll put you in a movie and, you have to play yourself in the movie, Sadie: but you have to play yourself being conned in the movie about not making a movie. Sadie: So it was just this, I just wonder about the motivations of the people that Sadie: this happened to and why they chose to be in a film about this crime that was Sadie: supposedly committed against them,
Sadie: right? Yeah. I don't know. I just thought that was just like a, Sadie: Many layers deep sort of like meta docu-fiction kind of thing. Sadie: Like, did the younger son go on to be in anything else? Sadie: Did Sabzian, did either of them do anything after this when it came to film? Sadie: Because they obviously really wanted to be in a film somehow. Sadie: I thought that that part was interesting. It was messing with me while I was Sadie: watching it, I guess. Yeah.
Justin & Jay: And Sabzian says in Longshot, you kind of have to watch both these together Justin & Jay: because it explains so much stuff about Sabzian's personality. Justin & Jay: You get to see him not doing lines.
Justin & Jay: You get to see him talk. And he was saying when he was in the house watching Justin & Jay: Kiarostami direct them, Justin & Jay: he's like, that's exactly how they acted when they thought I was the famous Justin & Jay: director and they were listening to me and they cared about what I had to say.
Justin & Jay: And more importantly no what he said was that Justin & Jay: like the way he was directing them was the same way Justin & Jay: kurosami was directing them that they were directing them the Justin & Jay: same way like same style and everything Justin & Jay: he's the kind of guy who would just say that though i think yeah like Justin & Jay: if so obviously like in part of Justin & Jay: the opening credits which i love a movie that
Justin & Jay: takes like 16 years to get to it's like title card Justin & Jay: drop love it love it but it Justin & Jay: says like you know starring as themselves but like Justin & Jay: did you know that they would be playing themselves before that moment or like Justin & Jay: how much of just that title drop like card like appearing as themselves like Justin & Jay: influenced what you knew about
Justin & Jay: the movie view like it doesn't make sense but you know what i mean yeah.
Sadie: Well i think i think i knew that they were playing themselves before i started Sadie: watching the movie so i don't remember if it was justin or if it was because Sadie: i pulled up the wikipedia article and skimmed the first couple of paragraphs Sadie: but yeah no i knew that was happening going into i. Justin & Jay: Think i mentioned it in the American Animals episode because they go off on Justin & Jay: like an Iranian new wave tangent.
Justin & Jay: And I was like, yeah, this one movie they played themselves. Justin & Jay: Listen back, listeners. Go back. See if we did bring it up. Who knows?
Justin & Jay: See so i guess like Justin & Jay: one thing about this film that i like Justin & Jay: that this film i think in and of itself interrogates and Justin & Jay: that like because like movie people love to focus on the like Justin & Jay: movie aspect like you know how like hollywood loves Justin & Jay: a movie about hollywood right like in the Justin & Jay: oscars if you make a movie about movies and it's like let's get
Justin & Jay: a win like filmmakers and like movie people Justin & Jay: love a movie about movies um and so a Justin & Jay: lot of the like reviews i looked at and criticism of Justin & Jay: this film talked about like the meta film aspect of Justin & Jay: it but what i'm much more interested in and not necessarily like Justin & Jay: this film as like a meta Justin & Jay: commentary on filmmaking but more like.
Justin & Jay: The presentation of truth and reality Justin & Jay: and that like how that affects how we Justin & Jay: like interpret it and like perceive it Justin & Jay: like for example the fact that the trial is shot in 30 Justin & Jay: in 16 millimeter but the rest Justin & Jay: of the film is in 35 millimeter how much of that is Justin & Jay: a budget or you know Justin & Jay: whatever other else choice and how much of
Justin & Jay: that is aesthetic because that grainier grittier lo-fi Justin & Jay: look of 16 millimeter Justin & Jay: looks quote more real than the Justin & Jay: 35 millimeter which looks like a movie right Justin & Jay: it also historicizes it it looks like what you would be able to bring into a Justin & Jay: courtroom because it's like lower quality and it looks more like film of the
Justin & Jay: time because it was you know it was i guess it was only like a year before all Justin & Jay: this actually happened they made the film like a year after the actual.
Justin & Jay: Trial which is wild it's Justin & Jay: it's similar to this article i just someone Justin & Jay: just put it on my timeline and i just read it Justin & Jay: and it's about the film that just came out zone Justin & Jay: of interest which is like the holocaust film that's not really about Justin & Jay: the holocaust because it's about like the muller Justin & Jay: family or whatever who just live it's
Justin & Jay: like a camp director of auschwitz and he lives in this like middle-class house Justin & Jay: and this article is all about like a historiographical he's basically saying Justin & Jay: that the the film is doing presentism because it's creating this dissonance Justin & Jay: through like its It's formalistic elements, Justin & Jay: which I don't, I'll buy it, but I don't really care that much about formalism,
Justin & Jay: but you know, well, the film is like zone of interest. Justin & Jay: If you haven't seen it, it's filmed entirely with like hidden cameras, Justin & Jay: like all the stats are shots are static. Justin & Jay: It's like literally like a reality TV show, like big brother. Justin & Jay: In fact, the director said it's like big brother.
Justin & Jay: And all the lenses are modern lenses so it doesn't Justin & Jay: look more historical you're not separated by Justin & Jay: time from it it's what it would look like Justin & Jay: now it looks like a modern film because it's shot on modern Justin & Jay: equipment they don't do any color grading or anything like that and he's saying Justin & Jay: that's that creates a dissonance particularly the soundscape creates a dissonance
Justin & Jay: between like what the movie is trying to say and what it's trying to make its Justin & Jay: audience feel and it shouldn't have done that if If it wanted to portray the Holocaust correctly, Justin & Jay: which, you know, that's, it's arguable if that film is using the Holocaust as Justin & Jay: a metaphor in the first place about something else, which is quite possible Justin & Jay: because it doesn't really seem to be focused on the Holocaust.
Justin & Jay: It seems to be focused on the present era. And it seems to be using the Holocaust Justin & Jay: to say, like, this is what your life is built on, right? Justin & Jay: This is, this is what it, this is the violence that undergirds your, Justin & Jay: your middle-class bourgeois fantasy. Justin & Jay: I mean, the director did say in his Oscar speech that he renounces the fact Justin & Jay: that the director of Zone of Interest is Jewish.
Justin & Jay: And he's the guy who did Under the Skin, which is another great movie you should go watch. Justin & Jay: But that he renounced Judaism and his Jewishness being used to justify what's Justin & Jay: happening to Palestinians, basically.
Justin & Jay: And it's basically been kind of blacklisted for this. but Justin & Jay: like yeah that's what the movie's like about kind Justin & Jay: of like the end of the film is like Justin & Jay: this really unsettling sequence of present day in the auschwitz museum of just Justin & Jay: the janitor janitorial staff cleaning and just like showing like and this is Justin & Jay: intercut from the nazi dude like doing a thing and then he like gets sick and
Justin & Jay: then it cuts to present day and it's like them cleaning and, Justin & Jay: in a film about like these hygiene conscious Nazis being like children was we're Justin & Jay: in the river with like jawbones. Oh no. Justin & Jay: Like, like this hygiene and cleanliness like this. Justin & Jay: Oh, we have to have this perfect, clean, sanitized middle-class life that doesn't Justin & Jay: exist without, you know what he was doing in Auschwitz. Right. Right.
Justin & Jay: And so, yeah, I would argue that's the point of that movie. Justin & Jay: Right. And the reason I brought that up was I wanted to talk about like tick talk authenticity. Justin & Jay: Like how people hold their microphones, even if it's like not the mic they're Justin & Jay: using or it doesn't need to be held because it looks more authentic as if you Justin & Jay: are just like, hey, guys, I had to tell you about this.
Justin & Jay: And like I'm holding my my earbud microphone because that's that looks more authentic. Justin & Jay: It's the same thing where like there were models who take selfies, Justin & Jay: but they're using like a good camera.
Justin & Jay: So it's literally a picture of a mirror. it's not a selfie or Justin & Jay: it's not a mirror selfie they're using like another camera they're Justin & Jay: not using a mirror the camera's pointed at them they're holding a Justin & Jay: camera but it looks like they're taking a photo of a mirror but they're Justin & Jay: not they're taking a photo of themselves holding a phone so Justin & Jay: it just looks more casual so there's like this
Justin & Jay: authenticity of tiktok and i want to Justin & Jay: bring it up because like that authenticity is also used to Justin & Jay: because tiktok is like a war weapon Justin & Jay: now in terms of propaganda for like Justin & Jay: both the israelis and palestinians who Justin & Jay: are trying to document like their lives Justin & Jay: or spread propaganda which really
Justin & Jay: doesn't hit outside of israel which is something israelis don't seem to understand Justin & Jay: like that kind of stuff is normalized in israeli media and then once everyone Justin & Jay: else sees it they're like what are you doing there was there was a tweet that Justin & Jay: was It was like Paul Verhoeven really hit it on the head when he had all the Justin & Jay: people in Starship Troopers dancing around and celebrating on the bug planet.
Justin & Jay: Watch Starship Troopers. Good movie. But anyway, the authenticity in the film Justin & Jay: is really interesting because the change of the film grain is used to manipulate Justin & Jay: the audience into thinking this is more true. Justin & Jay: And that's also true of any kind of media you're going to see now. Justin & Jay: Why is that decision made? Justin & Jay: Why is it filmed on what it's filmed on? Why is it shot with the cameras it's shot with?
Justin & Jay: Why is it framed the way it is? all of these things are tactics to manipulate Justin & Jay: you and you know i don't i don't go on about information literacy a lot because Justin & Jay: i feel like it's like attacking a wildfire with a super soaker, Justin & Jay: it's really disheartening work i love like i know people get really really into Justin & Jay: it but ultimately like the funding to do that kind of programming comes from
Justin & Jay: the government and And they're only going to fund things that like are ineffective. Justin & Jay: Right. Like literacy for what kind of information? What kind of literacy?
Justin & Jay: Right. Like I was speaking of like the TikTok thing, like, you know, Justin & Jay: there's the whole like Zionist myth of Pollywood, Justin & Jay: which is that all of the videos we see on TikTok and Twitter of literal like Justin & Jay: dead children and stuff and like people documenting.
Justin & Jay: Like attacks and all sorts of stuff of like you Justin & Jay: know how many like dead people i've seen on twitter today you Justin & Jay: know like like literal real i was like i didn't know you could show that kind Justin & Jay: of shit this is literal like oh my god like ah and like a zionist propaganda Justin & Jay: myth is that like that is all a filmed like that in and of itself is filmed
Justin & Jay: propaganda that it is fabricated that it is made enough that it is like Hollywood, right? Justin & Jay: And so it's like, we don't believe the literal like avalanche of like real.
Justin & Jay: Footage we see that like these actual people Justin & Jay: are filming of what is happening to them and Justin & Jay: then sharing on tiktok and twitter and stuff but Justin & Jay: then like you know on you Justin & Jay: know not even fox news like on other like more quote if we think of that stupid Justin & Jay: chart of what media sources are like you know that we go on about like what
Justin & Jay: are the reliable media sources you know it can't be too Too left can't be too Justin & Jay: right. Gotta be in the center. Like, good CNN. Justin & Jay: Like, you know, like, you know, when you go on there and it's like, Justin & Jay: oh, yeah, no, this is totally where the terrorists were. Justin & Jay: Look at all their names and their shifts. And it's a calendar because they don't Justin & Jay: expect the people watching this to know Arabic. Right.
Justin & Jay: It's like, we'll believe that because it's on the news. Right. Justin & Jay: And it's like filmed by like reporters and stuff. But then we don't believe it's like it's like.
Justin & Jay: Certain things will show authenticity except for Justin & Jay: when they don't right it's like we don't want Justin & Jay: to believe this because it's coming off of a phone but we'll believe the news Justin & Jay: because that's the reliable source like how many times have you been like even Justin & Jay: like remember being in like high school or something and your teacher or a librarian Justin & Jay: being like well if you're on the web and you
Justin & Jay: need to cite sources you probably can't trust something at a dot-com website Justin & Jay: but if it's dot edu or dot gov oh that's probably reliable then like that's Justin & Jay: horse shit and we all know it especially now but yeah people would also say Justin & Jay: that about what's the other domain that's not dot com, Justin & Jay: Dot org? Yeah, dot org. Because that's organizations. Right.
Justin & Jay: A dot org costs, I think, the same as most dot coms, and anyone can get a dot org. Justin & Jay: It's my first choice whenever I can't get a dot com, is I just go to dot org. Sadie: Well, and speaking strictly to that, I don't remember how long ago it was, Sadie: but they basically said, you don't have to prove that you're an EDU or that Sadie: you're an organization to buy a dot org or a dot EDU, right?
Sadie: So they just basically kicked any sort of authority of those top-level domains Sadie: to the curb by saying anybody can register for any of them for any reason when Sadie: that's not what they were intended for or how they had been done to begin with.
Sadie: But how many people would realize that? right so there's Sadie: the definite line of where it was where it was authentic and where it stopped Sadie: being able to be authentic and nobody even fucking registered that that had Sadie: happened because it was such like an under the radar change i think.edu.
Justin & Jay: Actually got more strict and that if you had if you had an.edu you were grandfathered Justin & Jay: in they wouldn't take it away but then they got more Justin & Jay: strict about it so academia.edu which is just a company it's a social media Justin & Jay: company for academics was grandfathered in but it's not an edu or it's not an Justin & Jay: educational organization it's just a company okay. Sadie: Maybe it was just the.org.
Justin & Jay: Then but yeah because you can definitely just go by.org right now we should Justin & Jay: get librarypunk.org to prove a point i'm maybe i mean also the government agencies Justin & Jay: also use .com all the time because people remember .com as like the default. Justin & Jay: So if you have like a Medicare website or like campaign websites. Justin & Jay: Well, campaign websites are, like, not, they wouldn't be .govs.
Justin & Jay: But, I mean, like, the government will create, like, this is where you go, Justin & Jay: and it's, like, socialsecurity.com or something, or, like, socialsecuritycheck.com Justin & Jay: or something, because that's just what people will use. Justin & Jay: Which is insane, because, like, just put out ads on the TV that just says, Justin & Jay: if it's a government website, it's .gov. Put it on PBS. I don't know.
Justin & Jay: Put it on C-SPAN. i mean yeah they Justin & Jay: it's all the time you will get redirected to a.com Justin & Jay: on a government website and there's really no argument for Justin & Jay: it as to why that should be except that it's yeah i'm sure there's a reason Justin & Jay: but i don't think it whatever it is is probably a good enough reason yeah i Justin & Jay: feel like this is also like is a fucking ai like becoming like also relevant
Justin & Jay: again because it's like Like, Justin & Jay: how are we teaching people to recognize what is or isn't AI when they're on the web team? Justin & Jay: Like, I remember, and you know, this is anecdotal, so don't, Justin & Jay: you know, H-bomb, don't yell at me.
Justin & Jay: But like, seeing that someone who was autistic, like, Justin & Jay: was denied a job or an opportunity or something because the people like they Justin & Jay: were writing the emailing to thought that they They were writing the emails Justin & Jay: with AI because of just vibes, Justin & Jay: I guess, like because of the tone of the email because they were autistic.
Justin & Jay: Right. But then people will like just without question sometimes believe stuff created by chatbots. Justin & Jay: And like, what's the art one? Justin & Jay: Mid journey. It's any kind of what's the word?
Justin & Jay: Combative gan gan generated Justin & Jay: images generative adversarial networks Justin & Jay: yeah and like Justin & Jay: you know even sadly i saw Justin & Jay: like a palestinian reporter sharing like ai and like you remember like the let Justin & Jay: rafa live ai image that was going around twitter and then like there was one Justin & Jay: recently of an attack and And it was like two Palestinian boys carrying a cart
Justin & Jay: full of watermelon slices. Justin & Jay: And people were going like, this is AI. Justin & Jay: You know, you're making yourself look less creditable by sharing these things Justin & Jay: or even creating them in the first place. Justin & Jay: And so it's like, you know, what now are our markers of authenticity when AI is happening?
Justin & Jay: Like you know I mean already a lot of writing sucked because of Grammarly before Justin & Jay: AI was in it yeah also like, Justin & Jay: ChatGPT was trained mostly by humans who worked in Nigeria. Justin & Jay: So a lot of the way that ChatGPT talks is Nigerian formal register of English, Justin & Jay: which uses some words that people like, aha, that sounds like sounds like GPT Justin & Jay: because it's using this word too frequently.
Justin & Jay: And then that would then lead to Nigerian people getting confused with ChatGPT Justin & Jay: because they use those words more frequently. Justin & Jay: In their register of English. So the bias has been caked into the way that the Justin & Jay: language is spoken by the people who are going to train it. Justin & Jay: Yeah, like at my conservatory, about two-thirds of the students are not native English speakers.
Justin & Jay: And it's not like a research institution. Justin & Jay: So they're not doing a lot of writing, but the writing that they are doing, Justin & Jay: sometimes the professors are like, this is obviously, they put this into chat GPT.
Justin & Jay: How much of it is just them putting stuff into google translate though Justin & Jay: you know like that also sounds tilted yeah i feel like info lit for ai is just Justin & Jay: a losing battle and i know we had guests on to talk about info lit for ai and Justin & Jay: i wanted to believe but i don't, Justin & Jay: Particularly, a lot of people that I follow on Twitter are making fun of those
Justin & Jay: Facebook viral images, which is like people walking in the ocean holding the Justin & Jay: giant Bibles. They're like cops, usually. Justin & Jay: And then the words are misspelled, so it's like holy dibble. Justin & Jay: And I don't know why they're always walking in the ocean. It doesn't make sense. Justin & Jay: But they're like holding a giant Bible, the kind I saw in the special collections Justin & Jay: at my Catholic university.
Justin & Jay: University like huge like liturgical things that no one even uses anymore i don't know why. Justin & Jay: But the way the reason those images are so popular because Justin & Jay: everyone makes fun of them because they're funny but the reason they're popular Justin & Jay: is because they are a screening test for scammers so they'll put them out there Justin & Jay: for particularly pious old people who will then respond to it and say like you
Justin & Jay: know amen whatever yeah and then the scammer will say you know god God bless you. Thank you so much. Justin & Jay: You know, I'm having such a terrible time. And then they engage in a conversation Justin & Jay: in the Facebook comments. Justin & Jay: And they said, by the way, you know, I'm having a really tough time. Justin & Jay: You know, anything you can do helps. God bless. Justin & Jay: That sort of thing. Or they start doing like drop shipping.
Justin & Jay: Yeah. And it's the same sort of like Nigerian print scam, which is you're filtering out people. Justin & Jay: Like the reason the grammar is bad is to filter out people who are going to catch it.
Justin & Jay: And you want people who are not going to Justin & Jay: notice that something's amiss and so Justin & Jay: ai just is a new vector for that attack i'm not Justin & Jay: even sure it's like particularly more efficient for scammers Justin & Jay: i mean i'm sure it is but you know Justin & Jay: i just feel like a lot of this stuff is going to become too expensive for people
Justin & Jay: to use for free because it doesn't make any money and it's extremely expensive Justin & Jay: so i'm I'm hoping the problem kind of goes away on its own because generative Justin & Jay: AI is shit and it can't do anything useful except scam people right now. Justin & Jay: That includes investors. So, yeah, I mean, we were going to see like verisimilitude created by AI. Justin & Jay: I think, you know, probably like it could be like color grading.
Justin & Jay: It could be adding in people that look more authentic or changing the footage Justin & Jay: in some subtle way that's going to, again, manipulate you. Justin & Jay: And you have to be aware, like, why is someone doing this whenever you're watching? Justin & Jay: Like, what's the intention of them sharing it with me? Justin & Jay: Just be a little more cynical about your life. I think you should go through Justin & Jay: life being more cynical.
Justin & Jay: That's my takeaway is you should just distrust why anyone does anything, Justin & Jay: particularly when they're trying to convince you of something. Sadie: Including us. Justin & Jay: Yeah. Don't believe us. What are you doing with your life? We're hacks. Yeah. Justin & Jay: Start your own podcast. Live your life. Justin & Jay: Get a hobby.
Justin & Jay: Fall in love i'm just thinking of we're in a hot dog like thinking about does Justin & Jay: it fall in love does the robot fall in love do you love the robot.
Sadie: That's kind of hilarious because Sadie: i just watched ex machina for the first time a Sadie: couple like a week or two ago good movie and Sadie: yeah really good movie that one that one's Sadie: stuck in my brain pan for a couple of days like it's Sadie: one of my wife's favorite movies and they were just Sadie: like watching me watching the film and Sadie: i would go but what if but wait why Sadie: is but what and they would just be like i knew that watching i knew that watching
Sadie: this movie with you is going to just be so much fun because i'm one of those Sadie: assholes that talks to the tv and says all of my dumb thoughts aloud so it was Sadie: just a good time dance floor yeah right oscar. Justin & Jay: Isek is so good in that movie. Sadie: Like i. Justin & Jay: Kind of don't care about the rest of it it's like watching oscar isaac just being insane i. Sadie: Didn't appreciate the.
Justin & Jay: Director is the guy who did that new shitty civil war movie with like footage Justin & Jay: from actual nazis yeah again media literacy like you know what is he what is Justin & Jay: the point of that movie and is the director dumber than you he is yeah. Sadie: It's always a good question to ask. Justin & Jay: Good movie, dumb director. Not Civil War. X-Monk, no. Civil War apparently is a bad movie.
Justin & Jay: People are so torn on it. I feel like it's another Joker situation where people are like, no, listen. Justin & Jay: It's a good movie. Other people are like, this film's the shittiest shit that Justin & Jay: was ever shit out of an ass. Justin & Jay: And I'm like, yeah, I guess you just gotta watch it for yourself and see how Justin & Jay: you feel about it, because I like Joker. Justin & Jay: I know a lot of people hated the shit out of it.
Justin & Jay: Maybe I would like Civil War because it's a bad movie. I love bad movies for no reason. Justin & Jay: Jesse Plimkins or Plemons or not Philip Seymour Hoffman. He looks just like him. Justin & Jay: It's pretty like fun and gay and evil in it. I like those like pink sunglasses. Justin & Jay: Yeah, especially with like how the open AI guy, Sam Altman, is obsessed with Justin & Jay: the movie. She I feel like I need to watch it. Her.
Justin & Jay: She her. Oh. Oh, because we were listening to Misfits the other day. Okay, her. Justin & Jay: She slash her. Okay. She slash her. What's funny is that Sam Altman is gay. Justin & Jay: It's not like ha ha funny, is it? A little. Justin & Jay: Because he's so obsessed with like Scarlett Johansson. That's all gay men are. Sadie: I was going to say, is that what makes him gay?
Justin & Jay: Maybe. You're like a woman, a hot woman. and you know but yeah bro in conclusion, Justin & Jay: maybe unless he has other things to say.
Justin & Jay: Iran is land of contrasts and like iranian new wave like was interrogating these Justin & Jay: questions and stuff and like this film came out in 1990 but like iranian new Justin & Jay: wave started in like the late 60s, Justin & Jay: and i feel like it took american cinema or like hollywood um a while to catch Justin & Jay: up because even Even things like Italian neorealism and French New Wave,
Justin & Jay: like, those were meant to, you know, do the whole cinema verite thing. Justin & Jay: Like, oh, yeah, we're going to depict it so it looks real, you know, Justin & Jay: because that's where the truth is. Justin & Jay: But it was still all fiction, right? It wasn't playing with the, Justin & Jay: like, documentary thing the way that, like, Iranian film started doing.
Justin & Jay: And like, I wonder like how much of our willingness or unwillingness to like Justin & Jay: interrogate documentary and other quote unquote sources of truth is to do with Justin & Jay: just like this kind of culture, right? Justin & Jay: Like in Iran, apparently like this is very like par for the course of like, Justin & Jay: this is how you interact with media, right?
Justin & Jay: You're supposed to do weird shit like this. in the United States, Justin & Jay: we're like, oh, the true crime documentary is obviously all true because it Justin & Jay: says true in the true crime, right? Justin & Jay: Like, that's the true crime. It wouldn't be called true crime if it weren't true, right? Sadie: As Anne Rule sits on her piles of money in exploitation. Sorry, Sadie: I have strong feelings about Anne Rule. Justin & Jay: Who's that?
Sadie: She writes a ton of true crime. Like, shelves upon shelves, and she claims she Sadie: knew Ted Bundy really well when they met in passing, and yeah. Sadie: Different different podcasts different episode.
Justin & Jay: Yeah i mean i Justin & Jay: like this i'm the i'm i'm the weirdo who likes like soviet realism which even Justin & Jay: my professor was like that no one likes this more than the other stuff you read Justin & Jay: and i'm like no this is great i love soviet realist film i love soviet realist Justin & Jay: literature it's great it's aspirational god damn it that's what i like Like, Justin & Jay: it's like a Jeremiah ad for socialism,
Justin & Jay: and that'll get a sensible chuckle out of, like, three of you. Justin & Jay: But yeah, that's, I mean, if you get the Criterion version of this movie, Justin & Jay: it's got a lot of specials, and it's got the long shot film, Justin & Jay: which I definitely think you should watch along with this.
Justin & Jay: I mean it's probably also out there in other ways but I would definitely recommend Justin & Jay: watching both of them because Sabzian is an interesting character and it's nice Justin & Jay: to actually see him not acting and what's fun is that that sort of interest Justin & Jay: article like review or reading was in a film, Justin & Jay: magazine called Sabzian yeah named after this guy that was just pure coincidence
Justin & Jay: I read it this morning when I couldn't sleep, Justin & Jay: and then we watched the movie and then I was like let me go get that article Justin & Jay: I'm thinking about it and I was like wait what was the name of that guy in the movie, Justin & Jay: and yep that was Sopton very strange weird synchronicity alright well thank Justin & Jay: you everybody go watch a movie movies are good mhm goodnight.