Justin: Anybody there it goes is my mic really high i was playing around with it earlier okay cool oh my. Chuck: Cat's here hello, Chuck: i i'll you your microphone seems very loud um well that way quiet looks big Chuck: mine looks tiny and quiet. Justin: You sound great yeah okay, Justin: yeah i've also got the bunnies behind me they're great they're they're holding Justin: the fort down while we record yeah. Jay: My cat likes to be in meetings, Jay: nice to. Chuck: Have a feline co-worker.
Justin: Yes this. Jay: Is arthur. Sadie: He's the mascot. Jay: Yes king arthur yes yes. Justin: Yeah so i i definitely feel obligated to to give you a good introduction on Justin: behalf of texas librarians i'm a librarian in texas so i feel like uh oh. Chuck: Wow here we go. Justin: Yeah i feel like i i have to To do it right. Justin: So normally I'm down in the Valley. So that's right on the border. Justin: So yeah, you'll, you'll tend to see like McAllen in the news. That's where I am.
Chuck: Texas is so big. I've been all over Texas, but I always forget where everything is. Chuck: So I know the cities I have been to. Chuck: I have no idea where they are on the map. But I've been to, like, Chuck: 10 different places in Texas, and you could scramble them all up, and I have no idea. Chuck: I think, and this is, I'm probably wrong, closest to your trot would be El Paso. Chuck: That's close to the border, yes? Justin: Yeah, but it's on the other side of the far west.
Chuck: Oh, yes. Texas is so dang big. Justin: No, it's too much. And I moved from Florida and I thought, oh yeah, Justin: big state. It's not that big, but it is. It just is too big. Justin: Okay, so the way we get the show going is I'll play the intro music. Justin: I have a soundboard, so I'll just have the music play that gets us into the...
Justin: The podcasting groove we'll introduce ourselves and usually i have the guests Justin: introduce themselves but i've got a special introduction for you so we'll just Justin: do that great okay let's go, Justin: I'm Justin. I'm a Skollcom librarian. My pronouns are he and they. Sadie: I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they them. Jay: I'm Jay. I'm a music library director, and my pronouns are he him.
Jay: And now, Library Punk is proud to introduce the top bookeroo with the five-star review, Jay: the man whose trot makes the world hot, Taekwondo Grandmaster, Jay: and the world's greatest author, Dr. Jay: Chuck Tingle! Chuck: Oh, yeah! Heck yeah! Incredible. What a great introduction. Chuck: I'm truly honored by that introduction. Wow, what a treat that was. Sadie: We've been so hyped for you to come on. It was for us.
Chuck: Very kind. I felt like when I do my book tours, I think Buckleys are used to Chuck: authors being maybe quiet and reserved. Chuck: Being an author, being a novelist is a pretty solitary, quiet activity. Chuck: And book signings can sometimes have that vibe, but I come puffing out of the Chuck: sacks and do a couple of laps generally. Chuck: So I think playing that song is pretty fitting for my live introductions as well.
Justin: Yeah, I listened to, as prep, I listened to all of My Friend Chuck. Chuck: Wow, we did a lot of episodes. Justin: Yeah, about like 25. I just had it running to catch up on all my Tingleverse lore. Justin: No, we're just super excited. I guess we have to explain. Justin: Well, actually, just a few episodes ago, we talked about your story with the Justin: Texas Library Association.
Justin: And I said, well, I guess I have to talk about it. And then we said, Justin: you know, there is still an open invitation for Dr. Chuck Tingle to come on the podcast. Justin: So, I'm glad that we made it happen. Chuck: Yeah, I guess. I mean, this is an honor to be here. Chuck: Also, I think it's been a little bit, things happen fast in the Tingleverse.
Chuck: You know, that whole thing happened to, gosh, I mean, part of this year, Chuck: it's only been a little over a month, and it seems like being history now. Chuck: Now and this is the first time that i have trodden anywhere kind of specifically Chuck: talking about it i know we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff but since Chuck: uh since you are in texas and you know this is a librarian show you know we Chuck: can get it we can get into it yeah.
Justin: Absolutely you you've done a whole post on the the specifics of what happened Justin: and i have my own theories about about why it happened. Chuck: I don't know if that's too inside baseball for the listeners, but I am very curious. Chuck: I will say, well, who would you say is a listener? Is it other librarians listening? Chuck: I mean, is it all kinds of book lovers? What would you say your listeners are? Justin: Gay children. Chuck: Children like gay.
Jay: Children we mean librarians and other types of library workers we have a lot Jay: of people who are in library school so people who are. Chuck: Going to be librarians. Jay: People who are thinking about becoming librarians. Chuck: Um that's great that's perfect that means it's not really inside baseball that Chuck: means we can talk about library theory and the audience will go wild child oh. Justin: Yeah they'll love it oh yeah well.
Chuck: So what i i don't know if it is it is it too Chuck: is it too deep to ask him what what do you think happened i don't know should Chuck: should i should i give a a quick rundown sure go ahead yeah just to set the Chuck: stage i tend to ramble but i'm gonna going to try to keep this quick. Chuck: This is going to be a summary like no other. Chuck: I was invited to be a, you know, it was a guest at the Texas Library Association Chuck: big conference and kind of a main guest.
Chuck: I don't know how you quantify it, but I was going to speak at the big, Chuck: big dinner. And there were some back and forths with my publisher where they, Chuck: you know, they invited and then a few months later said, well, Chuck: Chuck can't wear his mask. Chuck: And my publisher said, that's absurd. Chuck: He has only appeared anywhere with his mask on. Chuck: And why did you invite him if you didn't wear the mask?
Chuck: And then they said, well, he can trot around with his mask, Chuck: but not in the the main conference and then the Chuck: publisher said well then the point of the mask is Chuck: a one one to protect privacy i mean Chuck: i'm pretty political and the the amount of death threats that i get i mean pretty Chuck: much one one a week maybe more and so there's that but second of all it is often Chuck: you know part of my expression as a career on the spectrum i have learned over
Chuck: time as well but But honestly, Chuck: this is, and it's very interestingly part of my gender expression as well. Chuck: And so there's just a lot of things that I don't necessarily think libraries Chuck: should be policing about the way that the Buckruths choose to express themselves Chuck: in a sincere and important way. Chuck: And, you know, the publisher actually did write back. The Texas Library Association Chuck: said, well, we rescind our invitation. Chuck is no longer invited.
Chuck: And when that happened, my publisher did send back a thing that said, Chuck: you know, there is an important reason that Chuck wears this. Chuck: I don't know what the exact words are, but they said, you know, Chuck: this is not some sort of a gag or a bit. Chuck: Chuck needs this to appear. This is an aid for him, to which they said, we don't really care. Chuck: And then I made my post. So that's pretty much the rundown of what happened. Chuck: And I was banged from the conference.
Chuck: Technically, I guess I could go, I would say, if I want to present myself in Chuck: a way that feels comfortable and physically express my neurodivergence and gender and all that, Chuck: I am not allowed. So that's where it is. Justin: Yeah, and I remember that they eventually... Justin: They did resend. Chuck: They resend their, yes, they resended it. Chuck: And then after, after the, I posted this, there was a big, a big, uh, pushback. Chuck: I think a lot of buckers were pretty upset.
Chuck: And then, and then, uh, they said, Oh, oops. Uh, Chuck, can you can come again? Chuck: And, um, honestly, you know, I guess I appreciate, uh, I was trying to make Chuck: some sort of effort, although the apology was a little lackluster, I would say.
Chuck: But I also decided, you know, as someone with specific needs to present myself, Chuck: I cannot imagine them actually taking care of me and being a safe environment Chuck: for me if they won't even do the bare minimum of just kind of letting me exist in my own skin. Chuck: There are things, especially with my way on the autism spectrum, Chuck: I actually honestly just, I think even neurotypical buds probably get this of Chuck: I'm overwhelmed by crowds.
Chuck: And sometimes I just got to get out of there. I only travel with my buckaroo Chuck: who can kind of help me get away from things and helps me along. Chuck: So I always have a guide, and I can't imagine them accommodating that. Chuck: So I just thought, I don't really feel safe with these buckaroos. Justin: Hmm. Jay: That's actually a huge like discussion around the library conferences, Jay: especially since the pandemic when a lot of them did move online for a little bit.
Jay: A lot of librarians who do a lot of disability advocacy started talking about, Jay: wait, we've been able to make them virtual this entire time, Jay: like, or hybrid this entire time. Jay: Why haven't we been doing that? Because like, I love going to an in person conference. Jay: I love being around a lot of people.
Jay: I love that kind of thing. but I understand that Jay: like not everybody does and especially in librarianship it Jay: tends to attract a certain kind of person sometimes right oh yes Jay: absolutely yeah yeah and so yeah Jay: I think um is it Jess Schomburg is one and Jay: we've we've had them on the podcast before they've talked a lot about like the Jay: sort of like library conferences having the ability to be hybrid or completely
Jay: virtual like is an accessibility issue it's a disability issue like accommodating Jay: the fact that people had these different needs with how they show up in public Jay: or interact with other people is important.
Chuck: Yeah well i'm glad that conversation's happening i'm Chuck: i was you know the whole thing was pretty shocking Chuck: to me um just because it seems you know maybe i'm in my own little bubble it Chuck: just seems so obvious that if someone has this they need to to physically present Chuck: that you know a library of of all places, would be accommodating. Chuck: I think, you know, I...
Chuck: I have an interesting relationship with autism because my whole life, Chuck: it has kind of only been a positive thing for me. Chuck: I really like it. I think it's very cool to be autistic, actually, Chuck: and it's been that way ever since I was diagnosed. Chuck: I have never seen it as a disability, but I also recognize that it kind of needs Chuck: to be because it is a spectrum and that there are some buckaroos with this diagnosis Chuck: who do need help, who need additional help.
Chuck: And so in this conversation, you know, it made me uncomfortable that I had to Chuck: actually say what this mask is, which is that technically speaking, Chuck: this is a disability aid.
Chuck: It even makes me uncomfortable saying it because like I said, Chuck: I just don't, I don't, when I talk about my autism, Chuck: that is not the focus it's just kind of something that Chuck: needs to be addressed because of your government funding Chuck: for program i'm taking care of buckers you Chuck: know who are functioning in a different way than Chuck: i am and stuff so to be thrust Chuck: into this situation where i had to have that conversation about micro divergence
Chuck: very publicly because the texas library association i don't really know why Chuck: but but because they had a problem with my disability. Chuck: I think is really sad and kind of the most insidious part of all this is that Chuck: when you gatekeep like that, when you discriminate like that, whatever this was, Chuck: you're not just kind of not allowing someone to go to your reference.
Chuck: It's not just one thing. It's putting all of the effort and all of the work Chuck: that has to be done onto this buckaroo, Chuck: in this case myself, that didn't really want to have this conversation and to Chuck: talk about this as a disability aid. Chuck: I think ultimately it's a good thing because it is a good conversation to have. Chuck: But, you know, I think it would have Chuck: been better or if I could prevent a conversation in my own time, I guess.
Justin: Yeah. And I'm really glad that you've come on to talk about it because this Justin: will be recorded for, you know, we do have a lot of people who can help run these conferences, Justin: people who aren't just at the student level, but, you know, I've helped run conferences. I'm here.
Justin: And, you know, so that they can realize that they need to front load this labor Justin: And not dump it on the attendees, which was my theory, because there's a lot Justin: going on with book bans right now. Justin: And, you know, certain state agencies have to like leave the American Library Association. Justin: And there was some like, oh, is this an agenda against Chuck?
Justin: Chuck, and my theory is actually it was just incompetence by the conference Justin: leaders was they just didn't realize, oh, we have to work to make something accessible for people. Justin: And we're going to to invite someone and not even think for one second about Justin: what they need as an invited guest is such a like, it's so unbelievably rude is the thing about this. Chuck: Well, I've obviously thought about this a lot.
Chuck: I'm not going to say push back on your theory, but here's where the discussion is. Chuck: That as well. That's kind of generally what I would first go to. Chuck: But the thing that's confusing to me is that it's not that – it's a lot of work Chuck: for the person who is banned and has to kind of talk about their autism and all this stuff.
Chuck: Um what they were asked to do is Chuck: so bare minimum no effort Chuck: that i feel like when in Chuck: in my mind when i thought of the theory that you just brought up it falls apart Chuck: for me because i think what did they actually have to do other than warrant Chuck: of someone's appearance i guess i i mean there there's There's no additional stuff. Chuck: I have someone that comes with me if I need help with anything. Chuck: So I don't know. That's where I get stuck.
Justin: No, totally. Justin: The thing is, I have never been involved with this conference or the Texas Library Association. Justin: I'm not from Texas originally. I've only lived here five years. Justin: And I just, the state level stuff wasn't really interesting for me. Justin: So I don't really get involved with that particular conference. Justin: So I couldn't tell you who in particular was running it, but it just, Justin: the banality of just like, oh, we had this rule, right?
Justin: There's this rule about masks, right? And then just putting it out there so Justin: callously. Well, that's interesting. Chuck: Yeah. They didn't even say there was a rule. They just said, Chuck: and they didn't say that someone was uncomfortable. Chuck: They said they were worried that someone might be uncomfortable with the way that I look. Chuck: So it is kind of mind-blowing. Chuck: The really obvious one is to say, oh, well, they're just being discriminatory.
Chuck: It's run by a bunch of conservatives or something. Chuck: But, you know, if you look at the other people invited, my bud, Chuck: T.J. Queen was invited, you know, queer. Chuck: I think George Takai is one of the, I guess so. Chuck: And in previous years, they had had, you know, drag queens and all kinds of stuff. Chuck: Now, I know that there's some politics with the ALA and maybe leadership changes Chuck: or something like that, but that seems kind of strange to me, too.
Chuck: What I came to and what I wrote was almost a left-side thing, and it's interesting. Chuck: This is a great podcast for this since we're trying to talk about library politics Chuck: and all this stuff. Yeah. Chuck: I think the most intricate one, but the one that actually I can't, Chuck: it doesn't have any obvious holes to poke in it, is not the far right idea. Chuck: It is the far left idea that I, and I encounter this sometimes, Chuck: where because my presentation is so unusual.
Chuck: Because what I write is, and I use unusual.
Chuck: Not disparaging, just literally uncommon, common Chuck: that sometimes very far Chuck: left bookers who have never heard of me or have heard Chuck: of me from 10 years ago think Chuck: that i am some kind of a you know ironic Chuck: message board like fortune Chuck: thing that is homophobic or Chuck: like a parody or i i don't really Chuck: know entirely but i every Chuck: once in a there'll be someone kind of Chuck: very heroically making some posting
Chuck: you know chuck tingles a bad guy he Chuck: writes about being a buckaroos pounding dinosaurs Chuck: and big feet and obviously making for the queer Chuck: people and obviously not really queer not really Chuck: neurodivergent that kind of thing ironically just Chuck: seeing someone and and kind of gatekeeping them Chuck: and saying that is the wrong way to be queer that Chuck: is the wrong way to be autistic is in Chuck: itself about the most homophobic and bigoted thing
Chuck: these quote left left-wing people could do Chuck: but it does happen and when I thought about it with this conference I thought Chuck: gosh I wonder if that is it because it is a very you know like I said they they Chuck: have a lot of queer buckaroos they have kind of you know we've had drag queens Chuck: in the past I I thought, what if someone booked Chuck. Chuck: And then someone high up kind of looked at my catalog and thought, Chuck: oh, this is obviously a joke.
Chuck: That was maybe my theory. And I don't know if it's any more likely than the Chuck: other ones, but it's the one theory that I kind of can't poke a hole in. And, you know? Jay: And yeah, and it relates a lot to like, I'm glad you brought up the idea of Jay: comfort and people being uncomfortable, right?
Jay: Because I feel like this is also another thing in a lot of spaces, Jay: but in libraries, like the idea of like, what should be allowed in a library Jay: based on what makes certain groups of people uncomfortable. Jay: A lot of people get angry about homeless buckaroos using public libraries because Jay: people get uncomfortable around homeless people. Jay: And it's like, you are going to be uncomfortable when you are out in public sometimes.
Jay: And I feel like people are having a hard time grasping that. Chuck: Yes. Yes. Jay: Finding that balance. Interesting. Sadie: Discomfort is not automatically a bad thing or a harm or anything against people. Yeah, right. Chuck: It's such a, like a town hall where they say, okay, we're going to have all these voices. Chuck: Anyone can come here and we are going to be a place of ideas.
Chuck: It's such a beautiful thing. And I think emotionally why maybe the Texas Library Chuck: Association thing affected me more than I expected was because I thought, Chuck: wow, this felt like the last.
Chuck: Last thing you know it felt like Chuck: this these are the buckaroos who are standing up for that space and then to Chuck: see it crumble like that was was pretty devastating i i obviously i don't think Chuck: this is all libraries it's just some particular buckaroos in the texas library Chuck: association but it is interesting yeah.
Justin: It's it's very disappointing and i'm very sad that it happened and wish i had Justin: been at least able to voice my displeasure directly to the people involved if Justin: i had it would have been nice to. Chuck: Yes yo. Justin: Get myself thrown off of the organizing committee or something um.
Chuck: Well i you know i'm actually kind of curious because you Chuck: know there are buckaroos that know what happened Chuck: and behind the scenes i'm Chuck: actually kind of surprised that no one has has Chuck: posted something right maybe someday but you know these are large organizations Chuck: you know these are and not everyone's gonna agree so i i think the one thing Chuck: that has been kind of surprising is that um there has not been any more information yeah.
Sadie: Especially with how sparse that apology was like you say that it was lackluster Sadie: and i'm just like that not even i would go lower than lackluster, Sadie: if I could think of the word for it, because it just wasn't really anything at all. Chuck: Yeah, I think technically speaking, I think calling it apology is generous on my part. Chuck: I think technically speaking, I'm not even sure if it was an apology so much, Chuck: but trying to take the high ground trot here.
Justin: Yeah. Justin: I am curious, though, for this event, I mean, did you already have planned out Justin: what you were going to talk about? Chuck: You know, I think so. That seemed like more of a Q&A. Chuck: So, no, I did. I did not. In fact, I generally kind of don't like to. Chuck: I don't like to know what questions are going to be. I know most podcasts, Chuck: or at least most professional ones, like yourselves, will send kind of the question Chuck: list or things like that.
Chuck: I don't ever read them intentionally. Chuck: I just kind of don't like to know. Jay: Not to do most of our guests. It's fine. Chuck: It is. Jay: Yeah. Sadie: It's for us more than anybody else. Jay: Yeah. Chuck: Sometimes I feel bad because I know effort goes into them, but I do genuinely Chuck: think my answers will be better if I don't know. Chuck: I also think it's very kind of you, speaking of accessibility.
Chuck: I think that there are some buckaroos who very much appreciate and kind of want to plan. Chuck: So it's a good thing to do, but it's just kind of just the opposite of the way Chuck: my brain works. I like to just let her rip. Sadie: Yeah. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is one of the reasons, but it's also to keep Justin: us on track because all of us have ADD.
Justin: So if there wasn't like a bullet point list, it would be really hard to get Justin: through everything we wanted to. Chuck: Yes. Sadie: It's hard even sometimes just to frame ourselves in. Jay: It's always fun to like be watching the notes while the podcast is happening Jay: because Justin will like move things around and erase things based on what we've talked about. Chuck: Well, what note are we at? Justin: No,
Justin: no, no, no. Okay. We're on the two now. We're on the, we're on the second bullet Justin: point. Okay. We're good. We're good. Justin: You've, you've done these library conferences before, right? Justin: What can, what can they do better? Justin: I mean, we already talked about the, the load on putting the load onto someone Justin: else, but you know, I mean, is, is, is planning.
Justin: Planning too much in a head is that a problem is it like too rude is it like Justin: do you need this do you need that does that get patronizing at a point.
Chuck: I have actually not done a library Chuck: conference before um so i don't know if i can i i do i mean i love book tour Chuck: stuff and so i you know have done a lot of them kind of bookstore and do presentations Chuck: i've done a lot of i mean i've gone to did a panel at Comic-Con for probably Chuck: the last, I think, seven years. Chuck: So I'm in San Diego Comic-Con every year and we've done a bunch of conventions.
Chuck: But I have not done a Library Association conference, you know, Chuck: without saying too much, after Texas Library Association, you know, did what they did. Chuck: I think that I might appear at possibly some other state conferences this year. Chuck: Maybe. Wink, wink. but that's kind of getting worked out but no i i actually Chuck: i wish i could answer that better but no i don't i don't really know i'm excited to learn yeah.
Justin: Well we'll just have to bring you back on once you've done your tour of all Justin: all 50 library association or 49. Chuck: Yes yeah 49 yes i'm not allowed at one. Sadie: Band for life. Justin: When you started doing like your book tour stuff i mean did you was there anything Justin: you learned that you needed while you were doing book tour talks after you started writing. Chuck: Interesting um i think what i learned was that um i I am a very different person than most authors.
Chuck: Like I kind of said at the beginning, a book tour is generally a pretty quiet affair. Chuck: And, you know, when I'm on tour, it's, it's a show. Chuck: It's a pretty big show. We got a projector and everyone's running around. Chuck: I kind of get off stage, frightened like Elvis Presley under the hot glare lights. Chuck: So, you know, it's just kind of a whole, it's a whole different thing.
Chuck: And I knew that going in, but I think I definitely learned, especially on the Chuck: last book tour, doing Q&As, where I would have a bud from the city kind of come Chuck: and we could chat. And that's always wonderful. Chuck: I just love that part of it. I do love a deep discussion. Chuck: But when I started running around doing laps and all that to cough in the microphone, Chuck: I always think my Q&A partners must be thinking, oh my gosh, what did I sign up for?
Jay: I wish more authors would like that. Yeah, my least favorite part of most library Jay: conferences I've been to is when they get some celebrity or author as the keynote, Jay: and you get a bingo card out because they say the same thing every time, Jay: which is how much their public library as a kid was so important to them, Jay: and they wouldn't be the author they were today without it. Jay: It's like, I could do it in my sleep now. It's like, no, you're actually interesting.
Chuck: Yeah well you know i guess Chuck: we'll never know what i will say to uh to the Chuck: texas library association but no i like to Chuck: get out the slides and uh yeah and kind Chuck: of i play some games generally it is really a fun time i think honestly i think Chuck: because of the styles this next book tour will probably do more off-site things Chuck: because i it was a little too big for bookstores so you know i think I think
Chuck: it'll end up being more in theaters, which is even more like a, Chuck: a dang show which in itself even talking about this you know i'm i'm not the Chuck: biggest author ever i'm not being james patterson but um interestingly buckaroos Chuck: are trying to uh really like to trot out and and see me in person which i think is really, Chuck: it's just really fun i get so much energy it's like i think every day night Chuck: i'm crying and tears of joy by the end. It's very emotional.
Justin: Yeah. No, I feel the same way. You know, like we just went to a friend's first Justin: live show for their podcast and it was a wild time. Justin: You know, it was done in a bar theater thing and we all had fun. Justin: We went out for drinks afterwards and it was, you know, just a great fun time. Justin: I don't understand why more things can't just be allowed to be fun. They have to. Chuck: Yes.
Justin: Even other podcasts. So I feel like there are some where it was clearly a conversation Justin: that happened and then they went back and re-edited their questions in so they sound more formal. Justin: And I was like, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just enjoy the conversation and have fun? Chuck: We're here to prove love and have fun. Justin: That's right. Chuck: You know, let's... Jay: Dang right.
Chuck: Let's stay trot. I actually, so, you know, my appearance is also, Chuck: I never do live readings, too, which is kind of another chicken show. Chuck: You know, so that makes the energy up, too, because if we're doing kind of games Chuck: and discussions and slideshows instead of live readings, you know, Chuck: I don't know how authors do it. Chuck: I guess that's what buckaroos are there for, but that seems like a tall order
Chuck: to hold an audience just by reading a book. Look, but, you know, Chuck: buckaroos like it. It's been that way for decades. Chuck: But, yes, that's not really the trap. Jay: Yeah. Justin: Not going to go full Charles Dickens making your living off of live readings. Chuck: No, no. Maybe more than Bob Barker making my living off of a live game show host. Jay: Nice. Justin: I would watch it. Jay: Yeah. Sadie: All right. Justin: We're starting a petition. Chuck Dingle, host Jeopardy.
Chuck: Bring me to your dang library's game night. I'm going to blow the roof off of that place. Justin: Yes. Heck yeah. The moment I get control over the budget. Jay: I'm going to have to get involved more with the Massachusetts Library Association Jay: just so I can make this happen. Sadie: Do it. Jay: Or the Music Library Association, since I'm in that one. Oh, Jay: you'd be a hit at the Music Library Association conference. Chuck: Heck yeah. Jay: Oh yeah, heck yeah.
Justin: I am curious, because Sadie and Jay both have written erotica, and I wanted to know... Justin: When what made you start and did you have a moment where it was like all right Justin: this just needs to get out there.
Chuck: Yes so i think you know Chuck: erotica specifically i i do tend to Chuck: like art that um dabbles in Chuck: in the taboos that's probably why i like horror is you know you have you got Chuck: the tab violence and then and violation and then erotica is just the taboo of Chuck: sex and sexuality sexuality so i i artistically i i've always found those interesting Chuck: i think kind of exploring, Chuck: sexuality has always been interest of mine with art and kind of i think is coupled
Chuck: with my artistic philosophy that um. Chuck: You know, I just like art that pushes the boundaries of the format, Chuck: a book that is more than just the text on the book, a thong that is more than Chuck: just the time that you listen to it. Chuck: So I'm generally interested in what's outside the formal piece and how that art connects to it.
Chuck: It's a sort of a Dadaist philosophy, although that, funny enough, Chuck: very punk, also kind of cynical, and I don't think there's anything cynical about what I do, Chuck: but I think my interest in all of that philosophically really made me interested Chuck: in sexual art because there is all this baggage that comes along with it outside Chuck: of the art that is very interesting to play with.
Chuck: I remember, you know, being a young buckaroo and kind of learning it out or Chuck: seeing the Supreme Court obscenity cases. Chuck: I think it was Larry Flint, actually, and Hussler. Chuck: But basically, just the idea of the Supreme Court saying, well, Chuck: pornography is defined by something that has no artistic value. Chuck: And the second that I heard that, I realized, oh, then pornography just doesn't Chuck: exist, because there is literally nothing with no artistic value.
Chuck: That's absurd. That just can't happen. Chuck: Every creation has some artistic value, and the Supreme Court can't just say, Chuck: well, sorry, there's no art there. Chuck: And so I remember getting really riled up about that and thinking, gosh, Chuck: that's so interesting, and kind of wanting to kind of explore sexuality and Chuck: art and stuff because of that very, very early on in life and thinking that was so interesting.
Chuck: So I think it probably comes from there in some ways as well. Justin: No, it's fascinating. I've also heard you talk about the holistic nature of Justin: how you perceive art, you know, living your life as well. Yes. Chuck: I mean, I think it is the interaction of the, of the artist and, Chuck: and the, uh, and the audience. Chuck: I think, you know, it's, it's interesting how controversial this is. Chuck: It's been debated forever about, can you separate the art from the artist?
Chuck: And it is actually my belief that that's not possible to do simply because I Chuck: don't think that art ends with the piece as we see it. Chuck: So no matter what, you know, your view of a painting is going to be framed not Chuck: just by the physical frame, but by what you know about the artist. Chuck: Not only that, what you don't know about the artist. I think a lot of the times Chuck: the argument against that is, well, what about a painting that I have no idea?
Chuck: I've just seen it for the first time. Chuck: I believe that not knowing anything of artists also informs it.
Chuck: Um so it is really literally impossible Chuck: and and i also think that that's okay Chuck: you know it's up to each buckaroo to decide how Chuck: much of that they are going to participate Chuck: on what's a what's a bridge too far for them what's what's a bridge not but Chuck: just pretending that that that you can do the separation i think what it does Chuck: is it makes it so the buckaroo saying that can then feel absolved as if they
Chuck: are now not responsible for their actions in participating in these things. Chuck: When in reality, I think that we kind of need to own it and also say that sometimes Chuck: it's okay to read a book by someone who has done bad things. Chuck: It's all up to the person reading it and how much and what it was. Chuck: I mean, a great example for me is, you know, I love the Beatles.
Chuck: I listen to to them all the time. I don't know if a lot of buckaroos know this, Chuck: John Lennon, not a very good buckaroo. Chuck: And I think about that and I think, well, after Wade, he's not alive. Chuck: He also actually addressed the fact that he was not a good buckaroo and most Chuck: of his career is about him trying to change that without anyone calling on it. Chuck: He kind of did it himself. Chuck: There's all these things I can can go through. And I can think about,
Chuck: say, J.K. Rowling and think, I don't like what she has to say. Chuck: All these different things. I read it. She's still alive. Chuck: I'm not going to buy any sort of Harry Potter books or whatever. Chuck: But that's a choice that I am going to make. Chuck: And other buckaroos can make their choice of whether they want to have me at Chuck: their thing because I don't I don't buy J.K. Chuck: Rowling books, but I still buy Beatles records.
Chuck: If someone has a problem with that, that's fine too. Chuck: The whole point is that pretending that we are in some sort of a vacuum where Chuck: art and the reality of who made it are fundamentally disconnected. Chuck: The only thing that does is gives people an excuse so they can feel better about Chuck: participating with these things.
Chuck: What I do is when I listen to a Beatles record, I know that my opinion of that Chuck: song is going to be colored by what I know about John Lennon. Chuck: I'm not going to say that's going to make it better or worse. Chuck: It's going to make it different. Chuck: And to pretend it won't is not really something that I'm interested in. Chuck: Sorry, that was probably the most rambling answer you've ever gotten on this Chuck: thing, Todd. I apologize. Sadie: It's really not.
Chuck: I went on for that one. I apologize. Jay: No, it was great. And I'm so glad that you also brought up the obscenity cases Jay: and them arguing that, well, pornography doesn't have artistic merit. Jay: And this kind of also relates to when do you decide to read or something. Jay: Thing and like there's a discussion right now in libraries about like whether Jay: or not particularly public library should have quote pornography in there because a lot of wow yeah.
Sadie: Because a. Jay: Lot of conservatives are like well we have to ban these books Jay: about queer people because that's pornography because it Jay: talks about and then they just can't say anymore it's just oh well it's porn Jay: because we say it is and then you get a lot of librarians who think they're Jay: helping by going libraries don't have porn books that talk about queer sex aren't Jay: porn and all that and i'm like no that's not the way you should address that argument that's.
Chuck: Very interesting it is two separate issues you hear you hear a. Jay: Lot about. Chuck: Some conservatives kind of saying that Chuck: these queer books are inherently porn but you are right there's a bigger conversation Chuck: which is that adults use libraries you know is why why is that not a place where Chuck: where pornography would be available there's a big philosophical questioner so interesting.
Sadie: Well and and like i Sadie: when i think about this is like my Sadie: thing is just like having worked the front Sadie: desk at a public library like i checked out so Sadie: many romance novels to so many people and it's Sadie: like what's really the difference there between that and like playboy Sadie: it's a it's a matter of medium right these are written words so Sadie: you assume that they're safer somehow than like a
Sadie: playboy magazine where you can see like a woman's scantily clad Sadie: or whatever but like and then Sadie: then you factor in ebooks and how Sadie: like the number one thing that public libraries Sadie: check out is romance and Sadie: erotica right because that's because Sadie: it's more private that way right there's less there's Sadie: you know your neighbors aren't going to see you checking out you Sadie: know like the the best erotica of 2023 which
Sadie: like is the kind of thing that my old library that i worked at had and so it Sadie: was just like it are we really concerned with like porn here or are we concerned Sadie: with how visible sexuality is and that just circles right right back to, Sadie: you know, conservatives and what they believe is acceptable versus the.
Sadie: And then part of obscenity, too, is always it's the community's standards, Sadie: or I forget exactly how it's phrased, but there's part of that, Sadie: too, when they weigh what obscenity is, is what the community standards are for that.
Sadie: So it could vary quite wildly. and yeah Sadie: no it's it's a really weird time for libraries right now i think but yeah jay Sadie: is 100 correct and why why don't we have porn in libraries and i guess if we Sadie: did how do we do that in a way that works yeah instead of just writing it off Sadie: the table so that answers.
Chuck: My question which which is, are there libraries? Because I know erotica is about, Chuck: for written word, as much as that is the closest equating to visual porn that most would think of. Chuck: But libraries also have video, DVD rentals, downloads. Chuck: Are there any libraries with, I guess, what the majority would call, Chuck: you know, traditional gonzo pornography in their video archives. Chuck: Does that exist in any libraries?
Jay: It depends. It's more common in academic libraries because of like women's studies courses. Chuck: Oh, yes. Jay: But also there are some more sort of like specialized libraries. Jay: Like for example, back at the end of January, when Justin and I went to the Jay: live show, we also went to the Leather Archives, the museum in Chicago, Jay: which does have a library inside of it.
Jay: And it's just pouring in there. um and there's Jay: a another library in chicago that i actually volunteered at when i was in grad Jay: school called the gerber heart and it's a queer library and archives and some Jay: of the dvds that i catalogued were pornography and that was a thing that circulates Jay: in that library like when people say oh there's not porn in libraries i'm like Jay: no there is i know because i catalogued it, Jay: so it just depends on the type of library usually I.
Chuck: Feel that a library should be a trove of information and an expression of existence as human beings, Chuck: and then not contain something that is pretty big part of most human existence.
Chuck: Existence is such an interesting kind Chuck: of relic of you know i guess Chuck: you could say religion or conservatism or Chuck: other things where it is very fascinating you Chuck: know even you saying that i'm thinking you know i have tinglers that Chuck: are references to or written about big event you know you can go back in chronological Chuck: order look at my tingler shorts and really it's like reading history for the
Chuck: last eight years because there are different political events or different things. Chuck: But also that happens with visual pornography where it really makes the news. Chuck: The paraplegic parody from back in that election. Chuck: I'm just thinking of these things where there was a big news item that was based Chuck: around a piece of visual pornography and the idea that that is somehow.
Chuck: Not historically relevant whatever you think Chuck: of it even ethically even if you said i don't like any of that on ethical bounds Chuck: or the creation or the industry i think denying that it has historical context Chuck: is pretty silly actually when you really think about all these events. Jay: It is silly. Sadie: All the way through people's reactions.
Chuck: I find, specific to erotica, I find the fact that it is generally a genre where Chuck: it's almost like a one-beat story, and I just made a pun accidentally. Chuck: That was not my intention, but I did really mean that, and now I realize that's a great pun.
Chuck: But with my horror novels, I Chuck: am writing those are very much like three act structure Chuck: very much traditional story beats generally of um I use film story beats a lot Chuck: uh so you know I can map those out what I like about erotica as an art form Chuck: is because they are shorts it is essentially a single beat which is, Chuck: The character has a problem, and then you have to figure out how do they solve that problem with that.
Chuck: And so it's such an interesting... That was great. Chuck: Finally, the soundboard makes it. Chuck: And I think that's so interesting that there's an entire genre that just has Chuck: this structure, especially when you look at the three-act structure is so...
Chuck: You know that's basically prehistoric it's Chuck: it's just so ingrained and and Chuck: then to just kind of have this thing where you say well what Chuck: is it that makes this function as the one being and honestly because Chuck: erotica has the separate goal it's it's Chuck: supposed to arouse you know a lot of Chuck: buckaroos it's supposed to get them off and so Chuck: that and i talked about this before like horror Chuck: like comedy are these interesting genres
Chuck: where you you have a second goal Chuck: and not honestly not even a side goal Chuck: it's almost like the beat and then traditional Chuck: structure is the side goal and your main goal is Chuck: either to kind of arouse uh with erotica to stare with horror or to make laugh Chuck: with comedy so those genres have always just fascinated me so i think yeah that's Chuck: my part of writing erotica is just knowing that I'm exploring this really unique Chuck: genre I found so interesting.
Jay: The Horror Vanguard podcast talks about that relationship between horror, Jay: comedy, and erotica a lot. Jay: They're always saying horror wants to do things to your body. Jay: They talk about rom-coms every once in a while. Jay: We are very good friends, and they asked me to give them a good shout-out on the podcast. Jay: I was like, perfect slide in. But yeah, that's something they talk about a lot.
Jay: And also, I was watching one of your interviews earlier where you talk about Jay: with, I believe it's Camp Damascus, about how you call it more cathartic horror Jay: as opposed to more darker horror.
Jay: Like, my trot is more on the darker horror side, Jay: but it makes complete sense because cathartic horror, Jay: it has sort of the same goal of like romance or erotica where I know at the Jay: end that everything's going to Jay: turn out good, either happily ever after or happily for now or whatever. Jay: But how the hell do we get there? Right? How do we go through all of these obstacles to get there?
Jay: And that's what I really like about romance and erotica. And so I was like, Jay: oh, this makes complete sense that cathartic horror kind of maps a little bit Jay: onto the same kind of structure as romance and erotica. Chuck: Although here's one difference that I would say is that I think you have to Chuck: trust either the author or the director or whatever who's telling a cathartic horror story. Chuck: Because one thing that you did say, the only difference is that I don't think...
Chuck: I don't think that you know, you have to have a thing in the back of your head Chuck: where you're not quite sure what kind of horror it's going to be. Chuck: I think the job of a cathartic horror writer, and that's what I would call myself, Chuck: is to ease the edge of a sort of brutalist kind of hardcore horror and always Chuck: make the audience think, this time it could go there.
Chuck: Because i actually think that that Chuck: the real key to it is not knowing Chuck: and then being taken that direction so it is similar in some ways but a little Chuck: different it's it's like a roller coaster it's the the feeling that you're you Chuck: know maybe going to uh fly off and crash and die but also, Chuck: knowing that you know there are safety checks and these different things so Chuck: i think that the best Yes, catharsis can only work if you actually believe that
Chuck: there are mistakes where it could not go. Chuck: And so I'm kind of experimenting, you know, I have set up, you know, Chuck: straight, my first kind of horror novella, very cathartic. Chuck: I think Camp Damascus is cathartic. Chuck: I will say there's something coming up, you know, I think what I write is very Chuck: positive. But there are some things, Trouting, that I think could be a lot. Chuck: We'll see. We'll see. I'm toying around. I'm experimenting. But, yes.
Sadie: This segues into my next question. I was listening to your interview on Talking Sadie: Scared that you did last year, where you mentioned the comedy horror sort of erotica-like thing. Sadie: And, like, there are so many parallels there that are super interesting.
Sadie: Like there's there's the element of anticipation there's elements Sadie: of disgust there is you know so many things Sadie: crossover things between those three genres but Sadie: i was kind of curious like what sort of other crossovers between those genres Sadie: have you discovered and having kind of played between horror and erotica and Sadie: like or are there any other sort of elements between those that you are are Sadie: are exploring or hoping to explore in the future?
Chuck: Yes, there's two. One is timing, obviously, which kind of goes back to the tension Chuck: and release of the way that you get these bodily reactions, whether it's fear, Chuck: laughter, or arousal, is through peaks and valleys. Chuck: And peaks and valleys inherently involve time. Chuck: How much are you going to build that tension? Where are you going to release it?
Chuck: So that's one similarity. I would say the other thing that kind of you wouldn't Chuck: expect, but has been very interesting for me is I prefer to write... Chuck: High concept ideas. A lot of book gurus actually kind of misuse that term or Chuck: don't really know what it means. Chuck: I would say all my writing is pretty high concept, especially my queer horror, Chuck: which is high concept for listeners who don't know.
Chuck: Some think that that means like really artsy, elevated, kind of like a difficult to understand thing.
Chuck: High concept is actually the opposite of that. If you talk about a high concept Chuck: film or something like that, Chuck: it's essentially something thing that the concept who Chuck: that fell the movie without an actor or director Chuck: attached it's a one sentence idea that generally Chuck: has a bit of irony to it and it's almost like Chuck: almost in some ways a joke even if it's Chuck: not a comedy a really obvious high concept Chuck: example would be the film liar liar which the
Chuck: one sentence pitches um a lawyer can't Chuck: lie for a day so that that is Chuck: like the epitome me of high concept of just kind of Chuck: taking something flipping it up Chuck: flipping it on its head and so you Chuck: know i have straight my my core Chuck: novella which is you know that one day a year zombie apocalypse but it only Chuck: affects the cisgender straight people you know so camp damascus spoilers for
Chuck: anyone who has not read camp damascus get the head bang 30 seconds but but let's say a minute, Chuck: because I do ramble, but skip ahead, and then go by Camp Damascus. Chuck: But Camp Damascus is about the ends justifying the means, and a church, Chuck: instead of removing possessions, invoking possession to stop what they perceive as sin. Chuck: So it's taking these familiar ideas and then kind of in a one-sentence kind Chuck: of twisting them. I think that.
Chuck: And erotica and horror Chuck: are all very good with high concept i Chuck: think you know a big influence for me is jordan keel and if you look at his Chuck: work as a comedian on keon keel a lot of those sketches if you took the idea Chuck: and and filmed it a different way would be horror you could film them as horror Chuck: sketches um and a lot of romances. Sadie: Are like that too.
Chuck: Absolutely yes and and then And Jordan Peele's movies, Chuck: you know, if you take what Get Out is about and say, you know, Chuck: it is these kind of old white people kind of stealing black bodies, Chuck: that is a horror premise. Chuck: But also that could have been a sketch on he and Peele. Chuck: And so I think when you take those high concept things, that goes for those three genres.
Chuck: Even pornography, if you really look at, I mean, these days, Chuck: if you're looking at, you know, the industry of pornography is pretty dang gonzo Chuck: now, where it is just, buckaroos are just having sex. Chuck: There's not generally a story behind it. But I think kind of in the 70s, Chuck: 80s, and 90s, when people think of, it's generally, Chuck: you know, a pretty heightened setup about a nurse or a king's man or a firefighter or something.
Chuck: So all of these really high concept ideas work. Chuck: And I think ultimately what that relates to is all three of them are camp in Chuck: a way, because I think camp is high concept. them. Chuck: So I think that that is kind of why queer horror works for me and why, Chuck: you know, I think a lot of buckers resonate with tinglers as erotica and also some as, uh, as humor.
Justin: Yeah, we were talking about your upcoming appearance in our Discord, Justin: and someone said something, and I said, no, Tinglers are political commentary first, erotica second. Chuck: Yes, I would say so. I would say that they are. Chuck: Well, you know what's interesting is when I write them, I don't know what I do first. Chuck: I do write message first. That's a very astute observation.
Chuck: Observation i i always want Chuck: them to function as a piece of erotica and Chuck: that i would call that the heart of it but you are correct is that because i Chuck: am such a message first writer it is generally the message as commentary and Chuck: that that the erotica is the vehicle and then i honestly i I say this all the time, Chuck: I really don't write them to be funny.
Chuck: I don't really like, personally, I'm not a big comedy guy, but what I have learned Chuck: is that I kind of have a naturally funny voice and perspective. Chuck: So when I write things, even horror kind of ends up being kind of funny, Chuck: and Tinglers, I can lean into it a lot more, and Buckaroos will find it funny.
Chuck: But interestingly, the goal of them really is not to be comedy, Chuck: which I think is probably one of the most interesting things about it because Chuck: it is clearly very funny to Buckaroos, and that's great. Jay: I mean, sex is funny. Chuck: Exactly. Jay: Yeah. Sadie: Sex is inherently weird and silly. So like, yeah, run with it. Jay: And it's also hot. These things are, they are the same, you know? Yeah.
Chuck: Yeah. Jay: Like I loved the way in one of the episodes of my friend Chuck, Jay: when you talked about, when you wrote about the like physical, Jay: physical manifestation of washing my hands.
Jay: That that one how you talked about how you know Jay: with that one you wanted to talk about it's the importance of washing Jay: your hands during the pandemic and like good hygiene but also Jay: like forming habits and trying to take the negative connotation Jay: away from habit forming instead of making it Jay: hot lesbian hand washing situation and it was awesome i was like yes this is Jay: great yeah like i just i loved the way that you talked about about that about
Jay: like the messaging and the erotica they're the same thing you can't really separate them yeah yeah.
Justin: I there was another thing you Justin: had mentioned somewhere i've just started camp damascus so Justin: i just bought it and this is this always happens where Justin: where i have an author Justin: on and i want to get the whole book done but then Justin: i just do everything else like watch all their interviews instead so that i Justin: don't ask the same question they've been asked a million times no no worries
Justin: so i'm i'm just at the part i'm just after like chapter one i'm like halfway Justin: through chapter two but you mentioned at one point, Justin: probably years ago how the terror of god was really like the the concept of Justin: if there is a god and if like how horrifying a concept that can be in and of Justin: itself especially if there is a you know a Christian God that sends people to hell for being queer. Justin: I just bought a book called like the horror of God.
Justin: It's about like Job. And I think it also ties in Islam, but is that one of like Justin: the main sources of horror for you? Justin: Or is it one that you fixate on? Chuck: I think it is. It's kind of, it is both. It is both. Chuck: Yes, that, but kind of the opposite of that. I've never been a religious buckaroo.
Chuck: Religion has not, you know, I'm always very flattered by campanaskis reviews Chuck: and stuff because a lot of buckaroos say, oh, Chuck must have kind of grown Chuck: up in the church and all this stuff. Justin: Exactly what I thought. Yes. Chuck: And no, not at all. I think I kind of about maybe six or seven encountered the Chuck: idea of a kind of a Christian God and thought, I don't know about that. Seems kind of silly.
Chuck: And then didn't really think about it too much anymore. anymore. Chuck: But you know, in my youth, I, you know, there's a lot about me that is private, Chuck: but something that I have talked about a little bit to some, Chuck: you know, my teenage years, Chuck: 20 were spent traveling the country, a little Jack Kerouac style or cruising around, Chuck: kind of docking without a home and going all all over the place, getting rides. Chuck: And kind of meeting a lot of buckaroos.
Chuck: And I was very close with, and I'm still very close with, some very religious Chuck: buckaroos, a couple of buckaroos that were raised in cults. Chuck: One of them, you know, that you might, that buckaroos are kind of, Chuck: you know, one of the big, big cults.
Chuck: And so actually, I called them up and Chuck: interviewed them before right in camp and and also Chuck: i think that you know coming from Chuck: a place of i think because Chuck: i didn't have that religious upbringing but had very religious Chuck: friends at a young age you know i Chuck: would attend their root beer keggers when they Chuck: were definitely old enough to be having beer Chuck: beer they were still having the root beer keggers i was at
Chuck: one that the the police came to break it up and everyone tried to give out some Chuck: dang minor impositions and were shocked when the partygoers revealed that it was all root beer.
Chuck: So, you know, I had personal experience, and I think a lot of time I talk about Chuck: writing from a place of love or creating from a place of love, Chuck: and that can sound pretty abstract, Chuck: but I like having Camp Damascus to point to, which is that, you know, Chuck: as you're reading, you will see.
Chuck: There's characters in it that are religious characters that a lot of buckaroos resonate with, Chuck: that I think another author who wasn't writing from a place of love could have Chuck: handled in a pretty aggressive way.
Chuck: And i think that because i'm coming Chuck: at it from a place of love those characters can Chuck: really sing and it can kind of Chuck: bring together some things and i think what it does is it Chuck: makes camp damascus less of an anti-religion book Chuck: and more of an anti-using religion for Chuck: hate book uh which is i think i think knife so yeah that just comes from running Chuck: from a place of love i think my fear generally is kind of the opposite of that
Chuck: is um at such an early age to kind of reject the idea of kind of a sentient, Chuck: omnipresent being the idea of death the idea of the thighs of the universe those Chuck: are awe awe-inspiring things. Chuck: They're beautiful things, but when you really think about them, Chuck: they're also kind of frightening in a lot of ways as well. Justin: Yeah. That's great. Justin: Thank you for letting me know. I do love religious horror. There's always some I go back to.
Justin: But I want to make sure that you have enough time to talk about your upcoming book, Bury Your Gaze. Justin: So is there a pitch that you have and you would like to share with the listeners?
Chuck: Listeners let's see i think that um if Chuck: you like cathartic horror i'm Chuck: not going to give away the ending because i will say that there's you know not Chuck: everything goes right in this book but i do think it's a very cathartic read Chuck: i think that it is very it's kind of a love letter to fandom I think. Chuck: I think that it's a love letter to kind of human creation. Chuck: I know that we are living in an increasingly automated time.
Chuck: I think that it's also, interestingly, Chuck: because through writing tinglers, I've gotten very close to a lot of asexual Chuck: buckaroos by writing asexual tinglers, tinglers without any sex that kind of Chuck: follow the erotical formula. Chuck: So I have a lot of ace and aro buds.
Chuck: And interestingly, I actually think that Barrier Gaze is a love letter to my Chuck: asexual and aromantic buds, because there's kind of some controversy, Chuck: a lot of gatekeeping from queer community about that being included. Chuck: I think Barry the Gaze makes it pretty clear where Chuck stands on issues of gatekeeping. Chuck: So I don't know. That's a pretty vague pitch, I would say. Chuck: But Camp Damascus, I think it's kind of better to go in cold and let the mystery unfold.
Justin: Sure. You mentioned Jordan Peele, and I saw another interview where you said Justin: Get Out was almost a direct line to Camp Damascus happening because you realized Justin: how cathartic it could be. Justin: And if the movie hadn't ended the way it had, then maybe Camp Damascus never would have happened. Justin: Was there a similar Eureka moment for Barrier Gaze? I've heard you take a lot Justin: of inspiration from movies.
Chuck: Uh yes um i think Chuck: yes captain askis you know jordan peele get Chuck: out is so brilliant and he is doing his own you know marginalized horror and Chuck: and so i i do as well you know but i'm writing for the queer community um and Chuck: so i think i had if you're Or in a marginalized group, Chuck: there is already a lot of horror and trauma flying around in the real world.
Chuck: And I just thought, how do you make horror that is escapist and cathartic, Chuck: but also has the tropes of horror, has some brutality and all these things? Chuck: Just how do you thread that needle and make something that is moving for a marginalized Chuck: community? And then, you know, he really is such a genius with that. Chuck: And so that helped me crack the code. Chuck: I think that cracking the code for Barrier Gaze was, I had this idea for a long time.
Chuck: And then I watched a video about the Barrier Gaze phenomenon, Chuck: and I had already known about it. Chuck: But I just kind of, there's a very specific event that happened involving the Chuck: show Supernatural that got me very excited. Chuck: I generally don't get that about barrier gaze things. Chuck: I don't know why. There isn't one of them in my history where I really got that Chuck: upset, but that one kind of got me, I'm going to say.
Chuck: And so that kind of was the catalyst where I thought, okay, I've had this idea Chuck: for a long time. And I have, suddenly I had these really big feelings about Barrier Gaze. Chuck: And, you know, like I said, specifically with that show. And then I thought, Chuck: well, it's more than just this show. Chuck: There's all kinds of movies and stuff. I'm going to kind of create a story and Chuck: take this idea in and kind of give these characters that I think have been mistreated.
Chuck: And this is why I say it's kind of a love letter to fandom. Chuck: Of, I think, give them another chance with some of these characters that we Chuck: have felt wronged for rooting for. Chuck: And so I think the catharsis of it is drawn from that again. Sadie: That's fantastic. I can't wait to read it now. Chuck: I'm trying to be mysterious because there's so much.
Chuck: I would say that Barrier Gaze, as far as big swings in art, for sure the biggest Chuck: swing I have taken artistically. Chuck: I think that it is more autobiographical. Chuck: A lot of buckers try to find out about my way under the mask, Chuck: but it is very much about my own life as a creator.
Chuck: And so and then conceptually to Chuck: bring in these elements from fandom and Chuck: different shows and stuff i can't Chuck: really think of anything i am not aware of anything like it so i i think it'll Chuck: be interesting when it really comes out and buckaroos realize oh that's what Chuck: this is about is going to be kind of a wild time. Chuck: So I always have to kind of hold my tongue and think, well, I can't spill too much.
Justin: We're not going to be in the news for like, Barrier Gaze leaks happen on obscure Justin: library podcasts, gay library podcasts. Chuck: Well, not with that attitude. Justin: You know what? I won't be trying harder. so tell me more about the influences Justin: that went into Bury Your Gains only. Sadie: If you're a coward.
Justin: You know what I do need that confidence, Justin: when you're when when, Justin: I guess you've already sort of answered this when you're talking about Barrier Justin: Gaze pulling from your life. Justin: And you interview other people, but is there anything historically that you Justin: play with in queer history? Justin: Or are you really just pulling from your life and people you've met? Chuck: With Barrier Gaze.
Justin: With Barrier Gaze or Camp Damascus or anything else you want to... Chuck: You know, with Barrier Gaze, I am pulling from Supernatural and pulling from Lost, R.I.P. Mr. Chuck: Friendly, also known as Zeke, who died and then in a flashback episode, Chuck: we learn was gay the whole time. Chuck: Interesting way to treat a gay character. That's so Barrier Gaze that he comes out after he's dead. Chuck: There's a show called The Hundred that is, you know, there is a lot, and actually Buffy.
Chuck: You know, a lot of Buckaroos are very excited because the main character is Chuck: named Misha, which has a relationship to Supernatural. Chuck: But there's three main characters, and the other one is Terra, Chuck: which I think Buffy fans will be aware of. Chuck: And then Zeke is the last one, which is probably the most obscure, Chuck: but that is actually a reference to Loft. Chuck: So, yeah, there are different kinds of...
Chuck: In points to media there's references to Chuck: my own media i mean there's you Chuck: know camp vanaskis is in kind of involved in bear i think so the if you are Chuck: here is one little thing i can say that i think is a fun little thing to let Chuck: you know how meta barrier games is is when writing the book, Chuck: I had to change a character's name because it is a real person, a real famous person. Chuck: And the legal department had some problems.
Chuck: Let's just say that the legal department was okay with it until they got the Chuck: draft and realized what this person was doing. And then the name change happened. Chuck: But a lot of readers, when I mentioned, I tweeted about the legal department Chuck: and they said, oh, wow, I wonder what parts had to change. Chuck: And I thought, this book is so meta that they'll know what parts had to change.
Chuck: Because when I had to change it, I had to go back in and add a whole new part Chuck: of the book where the lead character has to change a character's name because Chuck: the legal department makes them change the name. Chuck: So readers will actually know what name had to be changed because now it's in Chuck: the book where I talk about the legal department. Chuck: That's amazing. It's a pretty big swing of a book, is I guess what I'm saying.
Justin: And it's available for pre-order now already? Chuck: Yes, yes. Well, this is all library-based, so you all know pre-orders, Chuck: dang, they're important. Chuck: I think that maybe the video game industry has kind of given a bad name. Chuck: But as far as publishing books, yes, if you have heard this and you are interested, Chuck: pre-orders are very, very important.
Justin: Yeah we'll make sure that people know and we Justin: always want them to because we have tons of people who Justin: who order you know or love to Justin: read and things like that although that's a stereotype i try to break down on Justin: this show as well like my job is to organize information not necessarily sit Justin: there and read it all day i'm a librarian not a not a reader not a professional reader A.
Jay: Lot of our listeners have controls over budgets and acquisitions and can say, Jay: yes, I'm going to buy this book from my library and I'm going to buy a million Jay: copies like we would for a James Patterson novel. Jay: Put Chuck Tingle where you normally put the James Patterson novels. Chuck: Please order a million copies. I think my publisher would be very happy to get Chuck: that million book order. Jay: Yes. Justin: I think you've oversold it, Jay, but. Jay: Nope. Justin: Okay.
Jay: Not with that attitude. Justin: You know what? Jay: Again, I'm being shown. Justin: Exactly. Jay: We have some feral listeners. Justin: Honestly, but shockingly shy when I ask them, do you have any burning questions for Dr. Justin: Chuck Tingle? And they go, no, no, no, we're good. Chuck: Yes. You know, that's okay. okay, they see the mask and they think there's a Chuck: buckery who doesn't want to be asked questions.
Chuck: When funny enough, I do love being asked questions, but I can understand that. Jay: I think one person sent in a question that was about when you are writing your Jay: tinglers about the human personification of insert object or concept here. Jay: Obviously, of course, we love the pound in the butt by my library card. Jay: Or whatever the title was, right? But this person wanted to know, Jay: how do you come up with those?
Jay: Do you have a dartboard that you throw things at or do you just get inspired? Jay: How do you come up with your human version of insert thing here? Chuck: I have my phone and my notes. And then when I'm trotting through the day, something will happen. Chuck: And generally, if I think, oh, that's really relatable, that's kind of a feeling Chuck: feeling, or an idea that everyone kind of encounters, then I'll write it down.
Chuck: I think, oh, that's an interesting thing to explore with a tingler. Chuck: I think when they resonate the most is when there's empathy, Chuck: where everyone kind of sees it and thinks, oh, that's a feeling that I've had, Chuck: or that's kind of a thing that I've noticed. Chuck: And you can't really just sit down and brainstorm. stormers.
Chuck: And then there's another type of tingler that's kind of just like the, Chuck: Less topical, you know, sometimes something happens in the news and it's me Chuck: synthesizing my feelings on it and then kind of expressing that in a real book. Chuck: And then the other kind is kind of just building out the world. Chuck: And generally that, if it's something that kind of seems like a strange combination Chuck: of ideas, like a mummy race car, for instance. Justin: Love that one.
Chuck: Which there is a tingler about a mummy race car. you Chuck: know you think well why isn't it just about a race car i Chuck: think that in general yeah when Chuck: i when i do those combinations it will generally have to do with like a story Chuck: i want to capture what the theme is and i think oh that would be interesting Chuck: you know there's a lot of lawyers in the tingle verse a lot of bigfoot lawyers Chuck: and stuff and that's another when you add on kind of a thing And generally,
Chuck: that just has to do with, oh, if I have some feeling, Chuck: I think the story is going to be best told if it's about this character who's Chuck: maybe very objective and doesn't bend the rules and is strict. Chuck: And I think, okay, well, that's going to be a lawyer character, Chuck: and then they're going to learn to kind of loosen up or something like that. Chuck: Generally, it comes from whatever feeling I'm trying to express.
Chuck: And then on the page, it ends up being kind of absurdist in its own way, which is wonderful. Chuck: It's kind of funny that all these very kind of logical things, Chuck: when you extrapolate them and kind of don't have any fear or boundaries that Chuck: it's going to seem too strange for buckaroos, Chuck: can really turn into these beautiful kind of absurdist things that I think are very powerful. Justin: Yeah, like a handsome rabbit that's a librarian.
Chuck: Well, I will tell you, if I had that idea, I could not, because rabbits are living animals. Chuck: So I can only do extinct animals. Justin: Ah. Chuck: Yes. Justin: Wait, are you telling me Bigfoot's extinct? Chuck: Well, or cryptozoological. Justin: Oh, thank God. Chuck: I will say if the Bigfeet came out of the woods to reveal themselves, Chuck: I would have to take down all my Bigfoot tinglers because then you would enter Chuck: a bestiality realm, which is not there.
Chuck: But a good example, actually, a couple of years ago, I wrote an Easter tingler, Chuck: and it's about the Easter Bigfoot, not the Easter Bunny. So there you go. Jay: There you go. Sadie: We support monster fuckers on this podcast. Chuck: Yeah, there you go. Jay: I have also written Bigfoot erotica before. Chuck: Oh, there you go. Sadie: Incredible. Chuck: And very handsome. I mean, it's kind of, that one is just right for the picking. Chuck: It's like big feet.
Chuck: We all know what else is big. It's just like. Jay: Well, this was a lesbian Bigfoot. Chuck: Oh, that's great. Jay: Yeah, I wrote it for someone else in like a challenge. and I did a, Jay: it was like a southern gothic horror story with like, with skunk apes. Justin: Mm-hmm. Florida boys. Chuck: Yes. Jay: Yeah. That's great. Sadie: I live in the Pacific Northwest so it's like Sasquatch sticker on like every
Sadie: single car. So like, joking about like, Sadie: Bigfoot walking out of the woods, I'm like, that would just make people here Sadie: more feral for the concept of Bigfoot than like, yeah. Chuck: Where in Pacific Northwest are you? Sadie: I'm kind of in the Seattle area. Chuck: Oh, okay. I've trotted around there quite a bit. Chuck's manager is in Seattle. Chuck: So I know all the places around there. Jay: Boston just has ghosts. We don't have anything. Don't.
Chuck: Sell yourself that's great. Jay: Yeah well i mean i have been to the cryptozoology museum a couple times. Justin: I was going to ask if you've been because there's a very handsome painting of Justin: a bigfoot with very kissable lips he's he's really he's really i got a i've Justin: got a photo of it i'll send it to you after we're done recording old. Chuck: Chuck has also been to portland maine like i said i trotted around And I traveled Chuck: around in my younger years.
Chuck: I think I have, Chuck has been to every state, actually, other than Alaska. Chuck: I've never traveled to Alaska. I've got to fix that, I think. Chuck: Somebody at a Juno bookstore. Sadie: Alaskan Library Association, get on it.
Justin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Justin: I've been following your just i'm sorry Justin: to keep you as long as i possibly can without letting you Justin: go but you can just tap out at any point but i have been following your patreon Justin: and i saw your drawings that you've been doing and i was wondering if you're Justin: building something up to that or if it's just a daily sort of meditative thing Justin: or what's what's going on with that so i.
Chuck: I do it to, I do Timeline Tuesday where I draw a creature from a different timeline Chuck: every Tuesday on my Patreon. Chuck: I just like it. I think it's a really fun imagination exercise. Chuck: Very meditative. I think eventually, all that material is there, Chuck: I thought that'd be kind of fun to put into a book.
Chuck: But I am intentionally not Chuck: thinking about it like that because I just Chuck: want it to kind of be its own its own little Chuck: thing that's important when you are creating to kind of have these little you Chuck: know these things that aren't necessarily in the service of kind of the big Chuck: project that you let your mind trotting trot out in other ways i think that's Chuck: very important at least for me.
Justin: I feel that way about this show a lot that it has to be fun first and. Chuck: Anything that. Justin: We create for If we were to ever create a book from it or anything like that, Justin: or a study resource, I don't know what you could do with this stuff. Catalog of cat sounds. Justin: That would always, that would always just be incidental. The main thing is that Justin: we're just doing this and hanging out and having fun and meeting really cool people. Chuck: Yes. Justin: Yeah.
Justin: Is there any final thing that you wanted to, to let listeners know about? Chuck: Let's see. Well, first of all, I just want to say, you know, Chuck: it is, we are on this timeline. Chuck: We have a beginning, we have an end. We trot along and we, we try to use our, Chuck: our time and make our decisions as best we can. Chuck: Each of those decisions kind of branches off and creates little timelines. lines. Chuck: And I do kind of try to stress that there's a lot of power in that.
Chuck: Even just taking a walk in the park or putting money in a Bud's meter who you'll Chuck: never meet, little things very much matter. Chuck: And for the listeners and this audience of librarians, I think that for anyone, Chuck: it can you the easy to forget how much you are doing by making these choices. Chuck: But holy cow, the amount of power in these choices that you're making all the Chuck: dang time, recommending books and things like that.
Chuck: Unbelievable, unfathomable power to bend this timeline, to prove love is real, Chuck: to add God, a little bit more creation and push back against the endless cosmic void. Chuck: I just want to say thank you, first of all, for wielding that in the way that you do. Chuck: And second of all, just always remember that if you ever feel like it doesn't Chuck: matter, it really, really does.
Chuck: It really does for a buckaroo just kind of making a sandwich in the morning Chuck: and choosing to prove love that way. Chuck: But then if you're handing out books, holy cow. Chuck: It matters so much. So thank you. Jay: You're going to make me cry. Justin: Well, Chuck, thank you so much for coming on. Chuck: Oh, thank you for having me. This was a treat. It's been really nice. I appreciate it a lot. Jay: We hope your opinions about librarians are a little better now after the Texas
Jay: thing. We hope we've restored your faith. Chuck: Oh, no, no. I'm a big librarian fan. So there you go. Chuck: And I'm also a fan of handsome library cards. Justin: Who is it? Yes. Chuck: I give you a sentient, living, handsome, ripped library card any day of the week. Justin: Same. Chuck: Yes. Justin: Yes. All right. I agree. Amen. Justin: Chuck, hang on the line so we can get your recording after I hang up. And good night.