#406 – Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D’Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness

The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary and at times controversial boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing. Styles, matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like Mike Tyson, Maka Mora, Glitch Goes, Usic, Vivek and Omanjangkotropoji, Canelo, Muhammad Ali, Shagre Leonard, Hagler Durand, Floyd and On and On and On. Like I said, I came ready

to talk boxing, but I stayed for something even bigger. The Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas, Cus D’Amato and Mike Tyson. It's a story about loyalty, betrayal, fear and greatness. It's a story where nobody is perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early 80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor, Cus D’Amato, in training the young boxing protege, now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson. Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over

40 times and age 15, he was sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a 38-calibur handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again or he would kill him if he did. For this, Cus D’Amato kicked Teddy out. Why? Well, that's complicated. In part, I think to help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who Cus legally adopted, would be taken away by the state and with him the dream

of developing one of the greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to listen to this conversation. The thing said and the things left unsaid. The pain in Teddy's voice, the contradictions of love and anger that permeate his stories and his philosophy on life. Like I said, I came to talk about boxing and stayed to talk

about life. This conversation will stay with me for a long time. The people close to you. The people you trust. The people you love are everything. And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them. Forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays, everyone. I love you all. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's

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our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas. You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned about life for your father? When you asked that question, you know, I've never noticed a model when I was with him up in Gadskiv all those years. He used to say to me, Teddy, you learn through us Moses. I believed it's true to that. If I know what

us Moses is. And I, but it sounds good. Yeah. But I learned through us Moses were my father. He wasn't a big talker. He was, you know, he was a doer. And I, when you're around someone who lives a certain kind of life and those certain things, it penetrates. He was a doctor. He was, I'm going to sound like an idiot right now because I'm being a son. But he was the greatest technic doctor. I mean, if I say I have it, no, what's that mean? You know,

I mean, are you a doctor? You know, you know, I mean, like what does that mean? But other people have told me this. Yeah. Like just legend every story. He would do house calls and help people. And like you said, a lot of people have spoken about the impact he's had in their life. He built two hospitals and he built two hospitals before the Verizato Bridge in New York, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he built it so people could

get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it. Period. And everybody looked at him as eccentric. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Because he, he would literally sneak patients, not sneak them in. He was knocked out. He could do what he wanted to accept. But he would bring patients in without administering, putting through administration. So there was no

charge because, you know, they didn't have anything. There was street people. They were, I remember being my only way to be with my father was to go on house calls or to go to the door. There's no, you know, and so I went on house calls. And he did house calls by the way to he was 80 and three hours. I mean, it was better than like McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, I mean, the deal. You three hours and you got medicine. You got

everything. And, but he used to write around the holidays. It was just certain things that I didn't understand, but I understood later where we would just drive certain areas. And he just over and over and he would pick up these home and, you know, I'm up on, I'm 10 years old. Yeah. You know, move over and move over, you know, and it's just you, him and a homeless guy, a couple. Yeah, couple. Yeah. Whatever he could fit in three, four, you

know, whatever it was. That's a big heart. And then he took him to hospital, dropped him to hospital. So, you know, I would ask questions after it was all over, but I'd say that they sick. He goes, well, not not in a way, whether you put them in the hospital. So he said, yeah, and he tried to explain things to me, you know, he would try, he didn't talk much unless you ask him something. Yeah. And that kind of works. And, you know,

don't talk less on issues. And he, he explained to me that he said, um, I said, well, why you put them in the hospital? Then, you know, and of course, the sickness was the alcohol ox. But, um, why you put him, he's, it wasn't an alcohol rehab, you know, so why you put him, and it wasn't for the purpose to dry out. He wasn't trying to cure. Yeah. Let's put that first before we, we, we are knowing him for sanehood, you know, like by Teddy Atlas.

So I, I was like, we finally get to the point. Why you put him in there? Yeah. Oh, because it's the holidays. Hi, why you put him in there? Well, the holidays, you know, are good for certain people and bad fathers. And, um, and it was always before the holidays, it was before Christmas or whatever. And, and, um, New Year's whatever. And so I said, why?

And he said, because they remind people, certain people of what they don't have that you, other people, uh, enjoy the holidays because of what they have family, you know, whatever. And if we mind some, their mind is that that's pretty profound. Yeah. And then, I don't remember because he didn't use the word suicide, but I got it like he, he basically, I figured out how he said it, but like I just got it. I don't know how I got his nose. I don't

know. But I just got it like so they don't hurt themselves. That's what came up in every way. I don't think he ever articulated it. I've ever verbalized that. But yeah, they don't hurt themselves. So, and well, how does that work? Well, it just basically, they're going to be around people that are going to be alone. They're going to be around people. They're going to get fed. They're going to be warm, right? And it's going to be for

three days, two, three days, whatever. And it's basically, it's, it's a bridge. So at the, the funny thing is a 10 year old, I wanted a, I want to be connected to him. So I, I, I enlisted myself in the job when, when, when he used to drop them off, he would take them, get them in, right? And, um, and then the thing that I know, I can't, he didn't say none, but I, you noticed things. And if you care enough, you don't, you don't know

there's nothing if you don't care. But if you care if it's important, you notice. And this guy was important to me. I just was, I didn't know what a hero was. No clue. I love Mickey Mano. I love Willie Mays. I loved, I loved my Hamid Ali. I, I, I, I never, ever connected with my mind as heroes. Never. My father. I, I didn't connect it that way, but he looking back now, looking back, he was, he was my first connection to a hero.

The two of you ever talk about how much you love each other. So what love, one thing that was not allowed. The, the greatest memory I have, my father shown me love was we were down to the floor at an airport. And, and um, we were, I was born in Miami, don't ask where I was person. And so, and so, I was supposed to go back right? And I wanted to stay with my mother for whatever reason. And so he, you know, he of course, conceded to it. And he's,

he's okay, you know, whatever. And very quiet, very, and there's a man who never showed emotion to anyone. I mean, for the most people, well, all of a sudden, he just turned and kissed me on the forehead and left. And I was, I was like, that's different. Yeah. You still remember that? Yeah. Like, that's weird. You lost them 30 years ago. How, how did that change you? It made me realize that some of the deals I used to make for God, um,

woman realistic. When I was a kid, I used to make deals for God. Let me die before my father. And then, you know, you get older and you have kids, you're blessed. Why did you make that deal? You know what I mean? Like, thank you for not taking me up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah, you met some, I met some moments when I liked to know what to do. And, um, you know, I remember when I was driving for the one in the house calls, he didn't listen

to music. He was a guy. He read books to his, when he got older, he read books to our blood vessels, broken his eyes. He only read nonfiction books, science, he loves science, wars, um, generals. I mean, I cheated on a couple of book reports because I didn't do the reading of the book that I before I had a freaking book report to put in that. I got a book report to do on the war of salin great. Really? The war of salin great. And

who the freak could tell you where you get an A? I got an A. Yeah. I just wrote what he told me, told me generals, he told me times, he told me strategy, he told me about the winter that came and destroyed the Germans. Yeah. And the, and the Soviets were tougher than the Germans. And you know, the Germans picked on the wrong opponent. Yeah. I was already in the box of business. Yeah. I didn't even know it. I didn't even know it. Yeah. Matchmaking,

very important. Yeah. They, they, they mismatched. They, they made a mistake with the picking up on it. And so when we would be driving in the car, my father would be in a trance. And dad, he wasn't ignoring me at all. He was just with his thoughts. He was, he was, he wasn't even here in the radio normal. I was one of the way he was. I did. So I asked someone and just trouble driving. I said, I want to know. So I said, Dad, what do you think

when you're basically in this place that I know you're somewhere? What, what are you, what are you, where are you? What are you seeing? I actually said, what do you see? And he said to me, I see what could be, I see what could be. And I'm like, Oh, I got to ask you, when did you discover boxing? What, when did you first fall in love with boxing? When it saved me. How did it save you? I was, I was a stupid violent kid that was angry,

not exactly no more. I was angry. I'd fit in real good in today's society because there's a lot of angry kids out there that I don't think they know why they're angry. I was, I was just out there getting fights and I got this stupid thing from that. Can you tell the story of how you got that? I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things. I heard people, some people physically, but I heard, I heard my, my family.

That's BS, you only hurt yourself. That's a good way of, you know, alibi in it. But at some point the truth usually finds its way. I like it to look like I was just heard myself, but it wasn't. Obviously. So I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in a neighborhood. I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood where a father was a doctor. And I walked down the street. The funny thing was down, down the hill was a very tough neighborhood

called Stapleton. And most of the people down there on the corners, we should take a get up the hill. And I, I wish I could get down the hill. So I went down the hill and I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And I, I, I got a big advantage. And I never did it to that because I figured out later a little bit, but, you know, I wanted a family. We were destroying our family. We were, you know, my father was

a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor. You know, I think when you created something, you sacrifice something too. You know, when you really created something, so great that maybe God made you great and you took great for your own good. And, and I don't know, it took me to these stupid dangerous places, dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people too, because I got to the point where I was doing robbies on the street.

I was, I was fighting everybody. And, and you know what? The most dangerous part about it was. And I came to this realization on my own, all by myself. I figured out, I was really as dangerous, you know, these kids from the project, someone that got nothing. First of all, I learned you don't have to be poor or be poor. You don't have to be deprived of certain things to be deprived. And, or because you at least think you deprived. And I was

poor in a way that I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have. So here I am where I'm out there doing these things and what made me more, I was more dangerous than some of these psychopaths. Well, I was the psychopath too. I guess the way it was behaving. But some of these psychopaths that really had nothing, you know, really would, you know, they obviously

would kill you. I was dangerous in almost the same way, but for a different reason. I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out because I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right because it was going to get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you know, your scientists, you couldn't figure this one out because all the people that had them were injured people, fractured people,

screwed up people in some ways, but hurt damaged people. So if I get damaged, I get them. So I was on a crusade, really a righteous crusade where I thought it was okay. I had permission. I had permission to do these terrible things quite frankly and to fight everyone into I, and then it came almost to a crash. Doing all that, you know, winding up in Rikers,

Holland, like an idiot. Not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he was a great doctor and he's got to see his son and hear about, you know what I mean? Like, God, I was out on that day, you know, with the guys that I grew up with now, you know, the guys from the projects, as I described, and I was one of them who he's dead now. So I was with him and we were, we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grew up, that I hung

out and he grew up in Billy. He came from the project and we got into a thing where we cut somebody close off, we cut them off, you know, jumped out to fight. And you know, it turned out there's like five or six of them and two of us. And we fought, you know, right on the side right there, only about a block from where I used to hang out and maybe a block and a half. And right in front of like a Spanish bodega and it really does happen

in a slow motion. I actually saw the guy was fighting the guys that I had to fight. And then all of a sudden, I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit. And I really, I noticed the guy going to his pocket and I knew why he was going to his pocket, you

know. And when he came out as pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because in the neighborhood guys just hanging out, they went to this, you know, they get into farts like right on the streets and they went at that time, they went to this cheap knife, but it was, they thought it was, we thought it was cool. It was a double seven. And, and the cool thing, whatever, was that you could flick, you could learn and I learned how to

flick, you know, but I never carried a knife. But, but my friends would have it and I would just, you learn how you could flick it open, not a switch plate, but a flick it with your wrist. And I was like, here I am in the middle of this freaking fight. And all of a sudden, I was a double seven, you know. And, and so I'm like, I, you got to make a decision, you know. And I got a split, I can either not do nothing, which wasn't, didn't seem like

a great, you know, a great option. I couldn't run away. Why not? Because you got to live with yourself afterwards. And, and that's more difficult to live with than whatever it is at that second because that don't go away. You couldn't live with yourself running away. It just don't go away. That thing, and I'm not gonna do it being brave. Yeah. And then none of the two of being brave. Really? It's got to do with just a common sense in life

that, for me, whatever you deal with, it's all, it's done. Like, like, okay, deal with, go to bed, whatever. But you, you do that, you know, that other thing. You can't, um, you, you, that never, that never ends. This thing ends. Memory of you being, yeah, say a coward in that moment that never ends. The only thing I had at that point in my life in my stupid mind was a reputation that I would do, stand up to certain things. That was like, and that for me was, was worth something,

whatever, because I didn't feel any worth to anything else. That was the only thing I found a connection of worth to. So, did you ground? So I say, no, I made a decision. Yes. I still might grab, but I, I actually, things do slow down. They do. And I actually said, it's a double seven. He's got a flick it. You know, I didn't say, but he's got a flick it. I got a split second, either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever. Or I get to him before he

gets it flick. I went to get to it before he got flicked. And, and I, and I just as I got close to right, I did him a favor. I, I walked right into a counter punch. Because I, I, I cooperated with him. I went right to him. And, and just as I, he, he, he, he practiced more than I did with the double seven, apparently, because he was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And, and, and, anyway, what did you think? What did you think that happened? That was also a motion. Did you think it might die?

Yeah. Well, not immediately took me a minute. I'm a slow learner. I put my hand up. Why wouldn't you? I guess so. And it went into my face. Yeah. And I was it. It was gooey. It was warm and gooey. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know what this means for I don't want to know. But I think I know. And, and, and, and, um, do you think about your dad and that moment? No, you know what I told about him was, um, um, you don't know who anyone is into their test it. And, um, I learned that.

The coach used to tell me, but I learned it. Uh, he said, yeah, I remember one time, because, for the obvious, uh, seven to eighteen year old kid up there and, you know, thought I was, whatever I thought I was. And he said, you got my friends? And, um, I said, yeah, because, you know, I was on the street hanging out with a hundred kids at night, sometimes on the street corner. So I was like, I don't know, too many people that hung out

with a hundred kids on the street on a corner on a Friday Saturday night. And, um, I was like, yeah, I got my friends. He goes, really? Really? He said, um, how about if I told you, you might not have any, most likely you don't have any. And he goes, and then he just started to stink. He said, everyone's got to be tested. You, me, everyone, because you don't know about nobody to their test it. He goes, you know nothing. He goes, you know nothing until you know, and just something happens to

test if they were really a friend. And they told me this story about a guy, a guy came to him, and he was upset. He was upset. He goes, I'm upset because I just, uh, I just lost a friend, uh, you know, after 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more. So it goes, looks at him, it goes, I mean, it's your question. What made you think you have a friend's will? Now the guy gets insulted. And guys, did you hear me? He goes, I just told you 20 years I've been friends with

this guy. Why would you say that to me? He said, well, I'll say it again. What makes you think it was your friend? He goes, whatever happened in the 20 years, other than chasing girls, because I figured that one out first, chasing girls and drinking together. Um, and whatever I should do now on the street, or whatever gave you the inclination that he was a friend. Yeah. He goes, whatever, when did he risk himself to be a friend? What was it dangerous to be a friend?

What was the friendship tested? When was it uncomfortable to be a friend? And you know what the guy said? You could figure out your scientists. He said, he said, today, and today came for me, and today, today, today, today, today, kept coming for me, today, and that day my friend, Billy, had turned out while I was fighting these, whatever, five, six guys, and where was Billy? He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was my best friend.

And so anyway, they take me to the hospital, and here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did do for me, when he got off some roof, thank God, he did, he dragged me, dragged me into this bodega, laid me on the floor, and started putting towels. And the towels, I vaguely remember this, they filled up with blood, I mean, completely like drenched, like you put them under a shower. And I heard the bodega on a scream, and screaming,

you know, like, wah, you know, whatever. And everyone's screaming and there's chaos, and I'm like, I don't know, I'm calm, weird. I'm like, real calm. And I'm just in this place, one thing's calm. And I was sitting, I hear Billy, he's screaming, call the ambulance, and nobody's doing none. Everyone's frozen. I'm starting to understand already. People get frozen in situations, people, the fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, just paralyzes people.

And I'm, and I was going into a fear business. I was learning, I was learning, I was getting a learning, probably PhD, and he, and all of a sudden genius, Billy genius, really, and street kid, he jumps up on a freaking counter, jumps over the counter, grabs the phone, calls 911, says a cop's been shot, and forget about it. It was crazy. All I remember after that, I tell you the couple things, I remember, lights being put onto a stretcher, bounced around,

you know, rushed. I felt everyone's anxiety, except mine, I had none, but I felt everyone's anxiety, everyone's fear. Like it was all around me, it was like, oh, this is interesting. It's kind of interesting. I know that's stupid, but like, well, this is interesting. You really have an eye for fear, that's fascinating. You're really studying it. Well, I had no choice. I got introduced in a crash course, and they put me in ambulance,

and this is what I remember to your point. I'm sorry, it took so long to get to it. I am, although I'll probably do it again before this conversation's over. But I, journey, yeah, I would get there. If we get there, pops. So I, I hear the cops say, we, we might lose them. And I'm like laughing to myself. I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne. John Wayne would have laughed. But I'm like, lose. You guys are stupid. You know, I didn't say that. But I'm like, lose me.

My father's the greatest actor in the freaking world. There's not no worry about it. You people, you people all uptight and whacked out here with fear. And there's nothing to worry about. Talk to Alice is my father. So anyway, so they're, they're taking me to the, and they say, we don't have time. I hear a couple of things I remember. Don't have time. Take them to, and they take me to the US public health hospital. Marina hospital was called at the time, but US

public health. And it's in Stapleton. So it's close. Thank God. So they're taking me and I hear the one radio, you know, what we're saying is stuff about. We got to, we got to move. We got to move. And I'm, I start talking. And that's how we don't talk. But I like to talk a lot, you know. And I'm, so again, fear. There's no fear when a fear has been removed. It's the only time you really free in life. And I know that sounds absurd. But really, it is the only time you really free in

life. I was when you close it, death, when you're devoid of, of, of things that, that normally hold you back, that normally influence you in ways that, that, you know, that a, a night of the influence that always positive influence. Where you're, where you're in a pure place, where you're, you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from fear, from anxiety, from, from joy, joy can screw you up. And you're free from all these things. And I'm in this place.

Just going to back up in ambulance, you're free. Yeah. I'm like, I said, just get me to talk to Atlas. And they say, we don't have time. No, no, no, no, no, you don't, you have to get to talk to Atlas. You have to get him. This was so damn it. This was so, you know what I mean? I finally figured it out the number. And I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden, I'm out. How many stitches? Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside, or whatever it was.

A lot. I look after, after, after 50, it's, that number doesn't matter. No more. I know whatever's 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever. You know, so I was fortunate. I was fortunate. And of course they, I was fortunate. They told me afterwards that Miss Mike Jogler literally by like, like a centimeter. I mean, whatever. And so then I'm, then we wouldn't be having this conversation obviously. I'm glad you made it. Yeah, I'm kind of glad to. And, and it just missed my eye, which thank

kind. It's bad enough I have a squat match for me with a patch. I mean, it's, I mean, it's enough that I get this freaking thing. And, and look, it goes all the way, you know, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's pretty long. And I'm, I don't know, I was out. And then somehow, I sensed like they had the curtain closed, you know, and it's amazing how vivid this is. And the curtains closed and I see a shadow. I, I felt the presence I did. And I felt him. He's

a, he's a powerful guy. And I felt him. And I just see like a shadow, you know, and all of a sudden the curtain gets pushed back. And I can't really see it's dark and, I'm, you know, out of it. But not completely out of it. And I'm, pushes the curtain back, comes in and his hand even knows all bandage, you know, whatever, but his hand surveys and felt safe. And I'm, it felt, it felt warm and safe. I was happy. And I'm, he got there, you

know, do you say something? Yeah. Yeah. Remember, I gave you a little bit of introduction to my father. I, you know, I'm now a little bit, right? Yeah. What do you say about the job? He just said, this is what he said. I remember this day, what he said. Yeah. That, that I do remember, I don't know who six or five people, but does he do remember? Yeah. He said they did a good job. You can have us call the rest of your life. And he left. Oh, man. They did a good job.

You mentioned cost, cost a model, legendary trainer. And you also mentioned, turned out, he really cared about you. In the book you write about a testimony he gave, I was hoping I could read it because it speaks to your character, it speaks to his. It's just powerful. The testimony goes, your honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I spent my whole life developing young men as a boxing manager. I trained two world champions, heavyweight champion, Floyd Patterson,

and light heavyweight champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character. I know things about Teddy Atlas. This court doesn't know. Things you won't find and has a rest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities of rare and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes, all made mistakes, but I've come to know this boy. And if we lose him,

we'll be losing someone who could help a lot of people. Please don't take this young boy's future away. It could be someone special. Let's not lose him. Please. Those are powerful words from powerful men. What have you learned about life from Mr. Customado? He gave me a quote and he drilled into my head. I became his guy. He loved me. I loved him. He said to me, Teddy, no matter what a man says, is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. That's why I learned from CUS.

The rest of it is BS. A lot of people say things. You just have to give them a minute to show you eventually what they really meant by it. I was learned from him that everyone's afraid. Cus, there's a way of saying to another great saying, you'll get kicked out of this. Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where fear is necessary to survive the situation. Anyone who says they're not afraid, they're one of two things.

They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor to find out what to fix wrong with them. He was right about that. We live in a taboo society where that word to have some of the signs that it's taboo because it invokes weakness. We are just layers of what we saw and learned since we were kids. We all were products of those layers. I learned that on my own month, at the end of the day, people will find their way of avoiding that term. They use the word

anxiety. They use the word butterflies, apprehension, a million different words. I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. Fear causes a lot of things in life. It causes a lot of problems. It also solves a lot of problems. Without it, we couldn't be great. If we are great, if we ever have a chance to be great, or at least to aspire to be great. How does fear connect to greatness? That's a profound statement. Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great.

You couldn't be great without fear because fear allows it to be brave. The most important word for me in this whole conversation, neighborhood, would be selfishness. It allows you to be for a moment less selfish. One of the things I learned, I guess, partly on my own. Everyone thinks my greatest teacher was a great teacher, mentor. My greatest teacher was my father, the one I never taught. I realized one of the things to be better towards great is if you can submit less than we submit.

One of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things I was always quitting, and my business, it's not a good thing. Every business, I think, yours is just more clear. It hurts more. In the moment, at least. In the moment, you're right. 100% because something's hard for a long time afterwards. And something like regret. We regret as the worst thing in the world because it's the solitary sentence. And man, that's a powerful phrase. Regret as the solitary sentence.

So boy, you're full of good lines. You know, it wasn't easy to accumulate them. It was a little bit hurtful. But so, it was submit less because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submit or compromise ourselves less, we get to a better place. You know, again, one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you that wind up hurting you in life and have hurt me in life.

One of those boogeymen words is the word of convenience. That's attached to everything. You know, people, people disappointed not because they want to disappoint you or let you down or betray you because they want to betray you. They do because it's more convenient to do than the other thing. And all the other man once told me, he said to me, I was trying to rationalize something. I was trying

to make someone excuse for something. I was trying to make myself better than I was. I was trying to say, it was okay. And he just looked at me and he liked me. And he said, Teddy. He didn't know such thing as being a little pregnant. I was like, yeah, it's your pregnant or your not pregnant. Either you're real or you're not really. Either you're truthful or you're not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not tough. Either you're committed or you're not committed. Either you're

not. Either you're not. Either you're not. Either you're not. Either you're not. Either you're not. That applies to a lot of things, including loyalty. That's quite a statement. But the life level of humanity for me is loyalty. It's what goes through the veins of, you know, everything has to have some veins in some form. And the humanity has veins. What runs through the veins of humanity instead

of blood to keep it alive is loyalty. Without loyalty. Without loyalty with dead. We're freaking walk, we're vessels. I never understood what a ghost ship was. You know what? I think I don't, I know what a ghost ship is. It's people. It's people that empty. They got no loyalty. Therefore, they got no humanity. Therefore, they got nothing. Therefore, I freaked them. I freaked them. Because and you know why they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why?

Because it takes, it's hard to be loyal. It's actually hard. I'll be a son of a gun. Yeah, you're talking about, yeah, it sounds great. Give it to me. Give it to me. Paint me with it. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, loyal. I'm, yeah, I'm great. Yeah, this is going, I'm on that team. I'm ready. Put me in coaching. I'm ready. Okay. Now you have to, you're going to have to get

hurt here. What do we get hurt? It's going to be painful. I mean, to be loyal, you know, you're going to be in danger because the person that you committed your loyalty to for reason because obviously did something in your life, whatever, whatever. You're actually going to get hurt to be loyal to him. You're actually going to hold on a minute. Wait, hold on a minute, coach. Hold on. Cool time. I'm here. Let me think about this coach. I might need me more practice.

I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Give me a little more practice, coach. And it hurts to be loyal. It freaking hurts. But without loyalty, we're, we're, we're go ships. We got no strength. We got nothing. Yeah, we got nothing. We got, we got nothing. I agree with you in a deep fundamental sense, but there is a pain that comes with that. I have to

ask you to introspect on this part of your life because of your value for loyalty. As people know, you and custom auto trained young Mike Tyson and the interaction there between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways. Given your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt from that? I guess it was the second time my life I felt betrayed. The first time was when I was whatever young 17 and I got arrested. I was with all

these older guys, tough guys, whatever. And supposedly and the detective separated us. That's what they do. And they asked me who did whatever who's gotten this that particular of obviously what we did. And it was me. And they said, you sure? You know, I changed that. You want it because your friends changed it. And these cops, they were nasty, but there were cops. They were the way you know, you're going to wind up with Rikus and they're going to be doing this to you. And I won't even say

the things because then I say them, you know, figure it out. But you know, they're trying to get what they're trying to get in, you know, you want to change it. And no. And but I felt very betrayed, you know. And especially when I was standing in the cell, and Rikus looking at their planes, leaving the quality airport and then hoping I was on one, you know, I was making like a deal with God that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I'd take a shot.

Was party proud that you didn't give up your friends? No. Because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that rules are rules. You're just loyal. And that's it. I didn't even know there was an option. I didn't think there, I know the cops said you could do this. But that there was no option. My father never had an option. But the betrayal, the private betrayal was

like, and so when cause we were partners, me and cause. Yeah. Cause was retired. This stupid kid goes up there and all of a sudden I start training fighters. First, I want to gloves, cause put me in gloves. I want to gloves that I had injury, whatever. But bottom line is I still want to fight. I want to turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan. And and cause had a different plan. Cause, cause was like, you can't and he had his setup a little bit. Whatever without getting into it.

Hey, he did me a favor. And I like to think he knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was. He was doing himself a little bit one too, but, but he was doing it for the greater cause because he believed in this thing of boxing. He believed that it changed life. He believed that it was worthwhile. He believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook. The big picture of boxing. Yeah. He believed in it. Yeah. He believed that to be a champion,

you had to be special. You had to be smart. You had to have character. You had that you had to be a better person. And then you couldn't make a champion of you didn't make them a better person. First and that this, you know, this could strengthen people. The sport could strengthen people in those ways. So he was married to it. And he was old and he needed, there was no one in the gym. He was empty and it was above a police station. This was crazy. And he needed an air to

the throne. He needed to pass an answer, so on. And he saw something. And obviously, he said, he saw that my career as a box was less important than having me become his answer to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy to continue that we could do a lot more for him. And for everyone, not just him, but for everyone. It was more like to keep it going. Like, like, it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And the cousin's afraid that it would die with him.

And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he didn't, so he saw me as, as, you know, the little bit of, you know, the seed to plant for more things to grow before that plant died. And so he, all of a sudden, he said, you can't fight. And I had people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight. And I could. But I couldn't. Right. Because I'd be disloyal. Loyalty is everything.

Yeah. So I couldn't leave cause. Yeah. And he kind of knew that. And, and so, you know, I couldn't leave him. And he said, you have an ability to teach. He said, knowledge means nothing. He said, see these per canna go here per canna for tanica, the psychopedias, the whole set in, in our library. He said, you see these? Yeah, I see them. All the knowledge of the world, whatever, uh, is in these. All right. Means nothing. If you don't have somebody to convey it

to people, otherwise it just sits on a bookshelf. It looks good. He goes, you have the ability to convey knowledge to people. You're a teacher. You were born to be a teacher. You'd listen yourself by only being a champion fighter because you don't need to take care of one person. You could take care of all kinds of people. And you could do this and you could do that. You could do this. So we go in his venture. Took a minute because I didn't believe him at first.

But finally we, I am, I'm there. I'm training fighters. And then he gets me to buy it. And I was a teacher and I started teaching these kids and there's no one in the German's dad. And all of a sudden there's 10 kids, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, cat's go box and club, which was never there. Now it's there. And I'm training fighters. I'm taking down the South Bronx to get experience. One of his former fighters knows the quevis down the South

Bronx. I'm taking down there to get smokers to get fights when they're ready. I'm wearing out dungarees. I'm getting holes in my dog. I was fashionable before it was fashionable to have holes in my dungarees. I could have made a lot of money with that because I was on my knees with these little kids, nine years old, 10 years old, eight years old, 12, 13, 14, all these kids. And I'm teaching them and I'm building a gym. And Klaus only came once a week because he was semi-retired.

You know, and he's home. And when he would come once a week, he knew he couldn't give me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise. And he said, look what that was doing. He's creating champions. And I was like, well, yeah, wow, I'm doing good. And then all of a sudden, after four years of that, because I was up there seven years, eight years, eight years, after about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that they get this kid in

prison and try on prison from one of the guys that knew Klaus, Matt Barazki. And there's a state, there's a correction of us named Bobby Stewart who used the box and Klaus had helped him out a little bit, a little bit. And they knew we had this gym now that was really starting to become something because we were winning tournaments and everything else. They call him, we get this kid Mike Tyson. He's 12 years old. He's 190 pounds. He's a mess. But Bobby Stewart

got involved with him, you know, the former fighter. And he's taken a liking to it. And now where he didn't behave at all and he didn't listen to anyone. Now he's listening because Bobby's got a carrot and a carrot is his teacher boxing. And now he's at the point now where we want you to take a look you and Teddy. I bring them down. What would you think when you first saw Mike Tyson? Well, I want to see his brother because he 190 pounds 12 years old and all solid. Yeah.

You know, really? But yeah, just physically, just as a physicist. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and listen, because he was right, I was a teacher. He was right. And he was testing me even that day. He said, what do you think? So he said, well, we ain't going to know not in the bag. Who the frickin' is about that? He knocked the bag down. We got to put him in with we got no one to put him in that way. I didn't have anyone that way. We got to test them.

Everyone's got to be tested. And so you got to put him in responsibly. But let's put him in. Just responsible. But let's put him in with Bobby Stewart, former profiteer at 14 Profites. Small in the Tyson. He was when he was fighting. He was 175. But still he's 28 years old. Tyson's 12. Come on. And and he'll work with him. Right? So what we do, we put him in. Tyson, he recognized the moment. He understood this was an audition. This was a chance. You know,

this was that TV show. Change your life. And he understood that if he passed the audition, he could change possibly changes. Like, it wasn't sure what. How could he be sure what exactly? But it was better than when he had. And so he was on audition. So he wanted. He innately understood what we would want to see. For Ociousness, toughness, character, desire, you know, and of course ability. Well, we saw the ability power speed. But it was it was unbridled. It was on toward. It

was it was raw. He didn't know really much at all. Um, at all. But we saw that. But he wanted to show more. He knew that wasn't enough. Again, and Nate intelligence. He he had to show desire. He had to show toughness. And so I was being responsible after two rounds. That's enough. Normally, I don't put a guy into boxing to maybe four months, five months, six months, eight months, ten. It depends what it takes to learn on the floor. Before it's responsible to put him in a ring

to actually take on, uh, incoming real live shells instead of blanks. And so normally, I wouldn't have men. And I knew we have to today. He wouldn't be in a ring again if I trained them. I would teach him first and then he'd get back in a few months. But for this day, it was the only way. It's kind of like I used to make this announcement. I loved it. He said, what's training on fighter? What do you, what do you look for training on fighter Teddy? You know, he asked me this ridiculous question

just to test me. And I say, it's like, go to me. She's where I, he loved it. I said, it's like, I said, it's like, go to me. She's with no. Oh, Christopher. He goes, what do you mean, me? Me? She went, you know, customers like, boom, boom, boom. So what do you mean, me? She went, oh, you got to me. She's windowed and I got the window where everything you want to see. Everything in there. And it looks great. Oh, everything. And yeah. And then what? Well, then,

you ask what's in the warehouse and they tell you nothing. And then customers, that's it. That's a trainer. And I wanted to see what was in the warehouse because I saw what was in a machine window. I saw the power. So to speak. So he goes to rounds and he gets to believe in us. Here's the weird thing. Not weird. Very telling. We knew what we were doing. Not praying. But we know what we were doing because he got a blood. You know, it's because he got hit.

After that blood, he never got another blood. You know, why he didn't get hit? Because he learned. He's still strong, but he's smart enough. Anyway, he goes to rounds and I saw, and I'm being responsible because if he goes more, it's not responsible. I saw what I needed to say. I saw a speed and saw power. So I had a system. And I saw, I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. I'm just telling you, I thought he was lying, trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling

tough. It didn't matter. Cause question me on and afterwards. What did you see? And when I said, he goes, young master, you know, again, he wasn't paying me money. So he had to give me something, right? And that was better than that was currency. Young master. I'm not master. Whoa. You know, young master, you know what I mean? I felt like that guy come food, you know, like in the movie, like come food. Grasshopper, when you're ready, when you could take this out of my hand, you can leave.

And that's powerful. Yeah, it was. It worked. Cause knew how to work me. And he did. And it worked. And so, but you know what? I didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit. Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and impacted a lot of people. Yeah. Cause you got the job done, but he did it his way. And he did it for a lot of

a meery of reasons. And but at the end of the day, it was all good. And I just had to understand that eventually later on. But you do the same. You do things your way and carry some of him in you, some of your father and yeah, that day, you know, that day was funny because when Kastra, what did you see, Teddy, when him, after two rounds, I got up and I rang. I knew I was going to train him. Obviously, we were going to say no. And he's still out about four months to

serve and we were going to work it out. Yeah. And when I got up on a ring apron, that's my job. I'm the boss. You know, people later on in a live call me a dictator. You know what I said? Yeah, you're right. I didn't deny people thought you, you mean I'm right? Yeah, I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss. I'm in charge. If I, you wouldn't be here if I was, what the freaking name before? I'm not freaking a charge. You idiot. Yeah. Yeah. They're right.

Well, what do you think is a shared responsibility? No, it's my responsibility. That's why you're here. Yeah, I am in charge. You shouldn't be here if you don't understand that. So I get up there. I know that I'm going to be trained. I got to show them who the boss is. You know, I'm being really frank about this. So I get up there and say, that's it. Out. No, no. No, let me go. I want to do another round. I want to do another one. I said, how,

did you hear what I said? Because I knew that, you know, he was going to test me. It's test me. I said, I said, get out. He got out. But were you impressed with the fact that you want to keep going? Yes. And I recognize what it really was. So because they asked me, what was that? Because I know what the young master saw. So because they said, what was that? I said, it was, um, it was an act. He goes, you saw that?

That he really want to go. I said, no, I said, he really want to go. But he knew that we want him to go. And he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy. And that's just as good. And because then right, it's just as good. All that matters was not, not, not how he got there. But then he got there. That's all that matters that he got there. That he got to the place to act like a fighter to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort level,

to do another round. He didn't want to. Damn, I didn't want to. But he knew we want him to. And he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it. And he said, you're right. He goes, now it's going to be your job to teach him to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit. And we'll get to that place without being coerced to get there, to get to that place on his own. Instead of using the things that he had to use to get to that place today, those things

are not going to be available one day. When you, and listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic because it was pretty good. You talk about man being on its job on money. Lex, he says, how do you think he finishes the sense because because someday, because you know, you're going to have to make sure that he learns these things because you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ. What did you just say? He's 12 years old. Yeah. He's been arrested 30 times.

He's getting out of jail out of, you know, juvenile detention, trion. He's a mess. And a lot of ways, there's a lot of things we find out later, a lot of problems with weaknesses. He goes, and you have that's part of your job. That'll be part of your job. And, but he really said that. And then he turned to him. He goes, you want to come live with us, young man? You want to be your fighter? Yes. And even that, because said to me later, what do you think about that? I said,

he said, yes, the way he said, yes, yes, sir. Yeah. And he said, what do you think about that? And we're talking. I said, ain't going to be that polite in a little while down the road. Again, he knew that that's what he felt that he needed to project himself as to present himself out to get to where he want to get to. He goes, you know, yeah. Yeah. Did you see what Cust was singing in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world? No. Again, the easiest answer would be,

yes. Teddy's just, Teddy, genius. Wow. Wow. Teddy's, wow. No, no, no. No. But again, it was my job. And I just, my job, it was simple, simpler than Cust is, Cust knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew, you know, rudiments of boxing, I knew what it took to be a fighter and, and how to execute it. The steps of executing it. So I took those steps. The rest of it, you get blurred by those other

things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. It was, it was just get them into Jim, make them mentally stronger, make them face things and teach them how to slip punches and, and create holes and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches. This is a cost. And what are you going to do? I'm going to teach them to fill holes and fill them with punches with bad intentions. And, and that became the moniker. And then Tyson would say that I'm, I'm told,

punch with a bad intentions. Yes, you are. And, you know, how do you make them mentally tougher? So that part of the job, the, you said, don't get a bloody nose, but the part of the job where makes them mentally tougher, how you do that? Most important part of the job, to make them face things, make them face where his line to himself where he's submitting. When we start this conversation with submission, submit less, submit less, submit less every day,

submit less. Because only come to Jim once in a while. And if I had him spawn, he would come because that was his, that was his, that was time. He wait. Now he came, you know, and put him life in cost, because that life, he was losing a little life. But that made the light bulb bright again. It did. And it was great to see. I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when, when, when it all went bad and because took the side that don't, he said he could take the

side of the next heavyweight champion for the world. But he, but he left me his partner, the young master. And of the second time I give a trade. And I'm like, for a while, I thought everything because taught me, he said to me, was a liar and wouldn't be any part of it anymore. And so I got a little more mature and I got a little past that where I was able to understand, I was able to understand that just because so many that you perceived this great,

in every area is you find there be weak and certain areas. It doesn't mean that they can't still be what they want to you. It's, it's something that, it's something that can be understood or forgiven. It's hard. It's hard to get to that place and forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed because, because told me the most important thing was loyalty, because told me he loved me because I was, because, because told people that the reason that he went to court was because

I didn't give up anybody, even though men put me in a risk of going to jail for 10 years. And, because felt that he admired those traits. And so I assumed that he, he would show the same traits. And he took a deal. He took a deal. He took a deal. He signed the papers that those, that those so-called fans of my sign. You know, he, he took a deal to, to, you know, to have the future, every way, chapters to turn down. And, and to let me, you know, to let me go,

to sign the deal, to, to let me take, you know, take the weight. For people who don't know, Mike was in a probably with a young girl and he pulled the gun on him. I don't know if there is deeper things to say about that situation. But why do you think us made the decision to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from custom, custom auto? Like, to break that, when he valued loyalty, I served my purpose. I got him to the, we needed to get,

um, food, life back in the gym. If I wasn't in the gym at that particular time, Tyson, never would have been in the gym. There would have been no gym to bring him to. When they caught up and made that phone call to bring him to the gym, there would have been no activity. There would have been no boxing program. There would have been, you know, no training, training them 24, seven away I was where it caused wasn't capable of doing that at that point in his life. Yeah.

But then again, it's not poor Teddy. I get the benefit of a career. I get the benefit of knowledge. I get the benefit of a life. I get the benefit of learning of, of becoming, hopefully a better person. I got the benefit of being portrayed again. Um, but, well, that's a hell of a statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is. You can learn to forgive weakness. You know, when you realize how, how easy it is to be weak. And, and when you realize that somebody asked me,

how did you get to the point where you, you could forgive, right? It's a pretty good question, pretty simple, pretty basic, pretty important, right? And I didn't, I didn't understand, I understood, but I did understand immediately for me. I said, how can I not forgive somebody? It becomes easier to learn how to forgive when you're still trying to forgive yourself.

When you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for your own inherent weaknesses, and betrayals of people like my father, in different ways that we forget very easily, because it's handy and it's a way of surviving. It's a lot easier to, to figure it out, rationalize it to, to, to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out. And, um,

so that helped me figure out how to forgive costs. Because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understand why I did these things, where the, where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came from, that they really existed. But they didn't exist for malice. They existed for me not being prepared to understand

that I could be stronger, to want to be stronger. And then I looked at costs, he wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in life where he had been strong for a lot of his life. He was strong with me. He was strong with a lot of things in his life. And does everyone deserve a pass in life where he got, he got to a place where everything was in one basket,

the basket of boxing. He once told me that he never got married because it would be on, it would be in selfish to a woman, to have gotten married when his whole life was boxing, that he couldn't give to a candy, couldn't give to a heart, he could, and then I thought about it. He had no money, really. And Jim Jacobs and Bill Cain took care of the bills. So he didn't really need money that way. But the one, what was the payoff for that kind of life, that kind of commitment,

that kind of sacrifice? Really, what was the payoff? The payoff was to have champions, to have a champion that would keep your name alive. You know, that word legacy, like what does it mean? Sometimes it's just a word, sometimes it's more than a word. It's a reprieve. It's a pension plan. It's being given a pension on your way out for the rest of your life, for your life wherever you're going, wherever you're going, for eternity. It's the only thing that you take with you,

is what you left behind. And for cause, it was all about leaving behind a mark, a mark that of champion. Yeah, it was attached to ego. We all have it. Yeah, it was attached to some selfishness and all. But yeah, it was also attached to wanting to leave something great behind, to know that you were part of it, that you existed for a reason, that you sacrificed for a reason. And all that freaking pain I brought my father, I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into

a righteous search. I made it into, I did. And I made it into, I was so, okay, because it was righteous. But it still did damage. It still did damage. It's still hurt people. It's still betrayed my father's trust and cause betrayed mine. But he didn't do it maliciously. He did it out of, again, my father came home, this is how I'm going to connect it. My father came home from, from work one night, 12 o'clock and I was waiting up. And like I said, it was over 19 years old,

and he got mad at me, he goes, go to bed. What are you doing up? I said, wait for you. Wait for you. And he said, well, go to bed. I said, no, I, I, what were you doing? I said, I was at the hospital. You were there. Why were you there so late? You know, he answered me. He said, there was a patient. There was a sick patient. I said, he must be better now, because you're his doctor, you know, because my father could fix anything.

My father, nothing got in a way of the truth, nothing, nothing, even blown his son's bubble. Matter of fact, he said to me, now he's not going to get better. He's going to die. And so I said, nine year old kid, you know, your kid yourself is, you know, it's not in a bad way, but you know, you want with you. And I said, I said two things. First I said, how, how, you're his doctor? How? It can't be. And then I said, I just said it almost angry. Then why were

you there? Like you should have been here with me. Yeah. And you know what he said to me? Because you don't give up on life. Go to bed. And give up on life. And that's, I finally connected the dots, this idiot that didn't graduate high school. I finally connected the dots. I was asking cuss to give up on life. You know, you don't give up on life. You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is, or forms of life. Doesn't have to be a physical form of it. It's life. It's

having a reason to be alive. It's having a reason to have tomorrow. And, and cuss is only reason to have tomorrow was to have another heavyweight champ and Teddy Atlas, even though we were together all those years. And we were partners and we trained together. And we were, we were, you know, the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers. That's the only thing we didn't do. And I felt like we did that

without cutting. And, and now here we are. And he freaking betrayed me. And, and, and, and, and all of a sudden I connected the dots. I was like, he didn't betray me in, in that cold sense. He didn't give up on life. Years later, Mike Tyson, I apologize to you. What, what, what's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story? I want to be the great gracious guy right now. Say, oh, I'm so human. That, that, you know,

a man's man enough to say, sorry, that said, we're good. I want to be really that, that's, that's, that's the, that's the best presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there. He's a good guy. He forgives. He's a good guy. He's a, he's a, he's a stand up guy and he's a good guy. I'm not sure. If he truly did it for himself, that he really did it because he felt that it was true. But, but if he's persuaded by other things, he was in the middle. I know I'm

taking it too deep. I know, but what am I going to do? He was in the middle of 12 steps with the, you know, getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps, which is a commemorable, really, it is. And he's taking the steps. The part of the steps was to admit or to apologize to all people you were offended in life. Okay. But are you doing it for the 12 steps? Or are you doing it because you really, truly have come to terms with believing what you did was that hurtful to me and that

it matters to you that it was that hurtful to me and that you were wrong and doing it. Did you do for, I know that's deep. I know that I'm a freaking idiot. You're, you're a, Teddy, you're freaking, you're, you should be better than that. He's better than you. Yeah. Maybe he is better than me. Maybe he is. Really. Seriously. Maybe he is. And, and I took it. He put his hand. I took it. We hugged. He said, I love you. I, I, I, yeah. Yeah. But I want to believe.

But what did cost tell me no matter what a man says, this is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. So today's day today was it really genuine or was it reflexive of that moment for him to get what he needed to, you know, for that step or was it truly for what I needed to really, that he really cared that what he did to me caused me to do what I did because I did something that was pretty damn bad to him too. Is he able to deal with that and put that where it

has to be put? Is he able to put that or was it just he did something he had to do and maybe he's sorry he did it. I know them. Look, I appreciate it that he, I would have rather been in a private place. Yes. So for people don't know you were in the middle of commentating a fight and he walked up behind you and he said, you're sorry he shook your hand, gave you a hug. I didn't know he said,

I love you. Yeah. He's emotional. I get emotional a little bit too. But, but he, he's emotional and he can be and he can be, I can see why people have a fascination and a love affair with him right now because he was because you know he was he was the media of the media that went across the sky

that is if they didn't see his parents told him about it. There was a media that came across the sky one day and the media is walking around in the room now and that's the media right and then it actually landed here and that's it right there and and and now he's come a long way and now he's

you know he's more human and and he's lovable you know and and compassionate and he cries and and I get the fascination I get the love affair I get it because we're inherently we're people that want to forgive we're people that we want to be good we and part of being good is to forgive

people and to to show compassion to people and so and when somebody's been damaged to acknowledge they've been damaged to acknowledge that you know they've been damaged and you care about them being damaged and how do you show care to admiration you know in some ways almost through

adulation and he's getting adulation from people like you know which is to a incredible level and it's because it's a phenomena but but I get it I understand it and um I don't know if he gets it I don't know if underneath all of this he's a complex guy he's

a sensitive guy I don't know and I am too yeah and one complex guy talking about another complex guy I don't know if underneath it all where he's really truly at as far as that day that he said that to me is that part of you that's sorry to Mike for I'm not sorry the gun on him yeah and that's

listen that's fair I I know dimensions of human nature too well to not know that he still has to have certain because I have those strong films what it's not fair for him to have them then right is fair now now he could look at it if he was to be held to his word that night that he

just acknowledges that what happened he deserved because of what he you know the position he put me in and he put himself in what he did and I wouldn't change nothing you know still you're you don't regret pulling the gun on him I regret that I had to yeah I regret very much

that that I had to that I regret very much I'm across the line I hated him for put me in that position that that you know how dare he think that that somebody feels that that trivial that the way I would feel about myself and the way the girl would feel about herself that was

11 years old at the time how she would feel about herself how dare they he think it's that trivial that you know that I shouldn't be ready to freaking to both die and kill for that why didn't custom auto see it in a deeper way and talk through it the word came back to me

but of course what does it mean but the word came back to me that cuss said you were right but if he took the side of Teddy he would destroy potentially a great a great fighter why why do you think that okay if you were to try to understand the point he was

making why why is that true is isn't the part of greatness that you said is building the character of knowing what is right what you know cuss was afraid to to go there where he used to not be afraid because it's kind of like you're never afraid of going up and I I get it you know when I

train a fighter now if I come out of retirement I train a fighter now I feel in camp like I'm I feel like I'm on death row every day that that of every day I I try to retrace my memory and say did I feel this way when it was younger I don't remember feeling this way I feel every day

a dreadful feeling that if I don't get this right I I portrayed everything I betrayed the fighters trust I betrayed what I'm supposed to be and then one one day I tried to figure it out why do I feel this way so intense I was in camp for two months training a guy for the world title

a couple of few years ago fighting a hottest puncher in the world at the time and Adonis Stevenson and the fighter was Ukrainian and I was you know brought into training for that fight and he trusted me and changed his whole style trusted me oh my god I went to bed every night like

praying um to dread waking up dread my stomach down to here every day saying what what if I fail them what what what what if everything that I told him was going to happen don't happen what if I fail him what what if he trusted me and I I betrayed that trust and the thing was the

what cost was you know he used to be stronger than that and then I tried to figure it out why I got this way and why it was so dreadful to me and why I felt like I was on that row every day training a fighter like did I do enough they do right well well we accomplished what we accomplished

what I promised them we would accomplish what I keep my word and and then I started thinking what how did I become this week how did I think and become I was a pretty strong freaking guy how did I become this week and then finally I think I figured it out you know why because I was always

working to get up but once I finally got up now he's looking down and I finally hit me I said I didn't want to lose I said there was not no lose on my way up now a son is something to lose when you're up there and you're looking down and that's where he was and and that's where cost was

cost was at the end of his rope he was he accomplished two world champs all this stuff right everything he and and and he did it right now all of a sudden it wasn't about moving forward it was about not falling down holy cow I was like I got it because I got it I got it you didn't want to fall

down oh my god you didn't want to fall and he this was his last chance you don't give up on life this was his last chance to live forever to to make everything he did worthwhile to have the youngest have it wasn't just heavyweight champ you gotta remember he was the youngest heavyweight champ

ever and to have that it was okay to die now and has loyalty so named Teddy Atlas gonna get in a way of that that's a tidal wave that they ain't no war that's been made high enough to stop that tidal wave and now I stop myself

yeah there is but but it would have to be all for big one and you know what who we to say that we could ever build that world that pig who is any of it who might as say do you think if you were to put yourself in the shoes of cost custom auto can you see yourself having the big enough

wall or you would choose loyalty now if I answer the way I feel then then I'm you know I'm making myself John Wayne again you don't have to answer that you know I think loyalty loyalty is important no matter what a man says what he doesn't he and that he intends to do all along I didn't make that

up custard and and when when this whole went down those words came freaking echoing into my freaking ears I didn't want them cotton doesn't help and they freaking kept coming into my ears and what do you think still a mature kid at the time you know I was young still an immature kid at the time

what the f**k do you think my response was you will fall off and but I got passed that do you do you forgive us have you found forgiveness you listen I forgive because he gave me more than he took away from me if I can what kind of man am I

if I can at least acknowledge that and be grateful for that he he gave me more than he took from me and I'm I'm grateful for that I'm also grateful for for what I gave him that I had you know that I I did give himself and at that point in his life you know a place a place to still

to still have test tubes and chemistry experiments you know a laboratory where he could still create great fighter and I help give them that I help I was part of that lab and making sure that lab was there and just that there was the existence of test tubes in a place because you can't freaking

tube experiments without test tubes now you're the scientist with the test tubes yeah I I guess so and I I just hope that what I said earlier is is really is really my thread through this whole thing when you say can you forgive us um I I'm still trying to forgive myself and

if I can have hope that I can forgive myself I think that hope has to start with the power to forgive someone else how can I ever forgive myself for all my feelings and figure it out if I can't start and practice it by forgiving someone else for some short comics and for me that's that's that's

only sense of sometimes a very hard thing to make sense of that that's my north star that's that's my compass because just to make me laugh you know me and him did everything together and we try and we get lost in the city we get lost in a bra and he get all frustrated and he's

at this you know great trainer but you turn you around you spin you around and you're lost and I said me or we because I was the only one who would argue with him and and it was really funny sometimes and I said we or me you were we or he goes I don't know because you're lost I'm lost what are

you talking about and then all of a sudden because couldn't give in he just couldn't met he couldn't give in you know what he said to me all of a sudden he goes when I was an army if I had a compass I could get out of the woods I said when I'm the woods when I'm army we don't have a compass because

I just don't argue with me I one time we're driving I want I want to get back to Katskel we we just finished at the Bronx it's been a long day you know visiting the murderous ain't houses and everything else that that he took me through for the 1800 time and I'm and he would

fall asleep you know he was getting older and he and he would just fall asleep in the car so what do you think I went a little faster right because before he went to sleep he said don't speed so I don't consider myself I try to be an honest guy and I try to be a freaking but

yeah you know it was a five or six years what do I think earlier try to do less submitting yeah really in all phases try to submit a little less try to lie a little less today hmm a little less try to get stronger try to get a little better so here we are and we're driving

and all of a sudden he's saying I what did I do 80 75 probably yeah probably did you know whatever and I'm all of a sudden he wakes up you were speeding all right I lie no I wasn't don't lie I'm not like you lied again you were speeding

now come on this guy he's you know what I mean he's he's he's unbelievable so I got a freaking you know he's the he's David Copperfield I want to know the trick yeah I want to know how he freaking he made this thing disappear so I said well you talk how do you know he goes

because I timed you I looked at the post number and I'm like what I looked at the post number on the side of the road where we were whatever mild and I never knew they even existed yeah I look and I said yeah there's little numbers he started timing and he goes sleep yeah and he timed it

and he looked he goes we couldn't have got from here to there and that's not a time unless you were going 75 miles an hour and I'm like all right I'm with my man all right I'm impressed you know don't try to get the mileage to my power part right it's enough that you got me yeah that's enough I'm

yeah I said and I'm not going to do that no one you know and and just he helped me in crazy ways where there would be times where I wanted to be you know where you wanted to be whatever right convenient week submit right and then all of a sudden all of a sudden in my mind cuss was there

with the stopwatch and I'd be like you know no you know whatever the bus is saying yes to whatever that yeah particular situation was just for the record never had a phone call like this it's hotel security the question is he asked me is are you okay sir are you okay are we okay I think so

I think so so far yeah you know I can only go like so far it's kind of like that old joke you know where the guy from 12 temp high estate building yeah phone down he's going you know 80 floor 70 floor 60 floor 50 and he gets passed the 50 floor and they're looking

about the window because how am I doing so far so good I don't know where it's going to end but um so Mike Desson is considered by me to be one of the great boxers one of the greatest boxes of all time heavyweight boxers what do you think on the positive side made him great I don't

know if he was ever great I know he was sensational I know he was the greatest mix of maybe speed and power ever I know he was one of the greatest punches for me the side of the plate left or right there's been great punches with just the right hand like Ernie Schavers and Deante

Wilder and Max bear I don't know if there's ever been anyone who could punch as good as he did on either side with either hand other than Joe Lewis and a few others I don't know if there's ever been such a combination of speed and power to that pure level that he had and it was a pure level I

don't know there was ever as good a fighter as Tyson was for maybe one night he was great when he wasn't tested but he might have been ready to be tested at one night against Michael Springs when he took him apart 90 seconds I think I saw a great fighter that night I don't think

you can be great unless you have all the requirements of being great what does it take to be a great fighter truly great to not rely on someone's house this weakness to be strong to be strong on your too often he relied on other people's weakness whether it's to

be intimidated or whether it's because his talent was so much greater than theirs that it was like putting a monster truck in there with a Volkswagen and the Volkswagen was going to get crushed how much horsepower the Volkswagen might have had under the hood and you put under the hood

it was going to get crushed a monster truck was not going to allow it to be a contest and to be able to find a way when your talent wasn't enough he didn't find a way when his talent wasn't enough and I'm not making statements if I'm not ready to put some evidence you know like if we

went a courtroom exhibit a when he fought when he fought Buster Douglas um Buster Douglas matched his will and didn't get intimidated stood up to him he didn't do what most people did he didn't submit even a little bit not that night he hadn't a pass but that night didn't why because Buster had Buster had a sicker weapon that night his mother Buster's mother died a few months previous he loved his mother very much Buster had always had talent big every way talented compunct technically solid

he was all those things always was but he quit and fights he did less than he should have done he never lived up to his ability he gave in he submitted he wasn't strong enough he never had a reason to be strong enough when his mother died he had a reason nothing could

hurt him as much as his mother dying hurt him Mike Tyson included that night Mike Tyson could not hurt him as much as his mother had hurt and by dying that night he had a reason to be strong for his mother and he was strong he was everything he was supposed to be

and more and he stood up to Mike and Mike for the first time maybe ever was in a fight where he had overcome some where he had to be more than talented more than a puncture more than a guy with scintillating speed and he wasn't and then that night got followed by another night with Holy

Field Holy Field wasn't as talented as him as big as a monster puncture but Holy Field had the character he was stronger ways that Tyson wasn't strong he was strong in a way where he could find a way he was willing to find a way he's willing to go to the cliff

to truly die before he submitted and you know a lot of stuff is just worth yeah they're going to have to carry me out on the shield yeah sure sure okay yeah until it comes time to be carried out on the shield sometimes there's people that actually mean it you think Mike didn't have that

he that's just say arbitrarily I don't have his record from me let's say it was 55 and 5 I know he had about five losses all right let's say it was 55 and 5 right a lot of knockouts I have a saying a fight's not a fight until there's something to overcome until then it's just

an athletic exhibition contest yeah who's a better athlete who's got more quick twitch fibers who's who's more developed who's in better this who's who's more developed in those physical areas but a fight is not a fight until there's something to overcome okay so if you go by my definition

not websters my definition but they think mean something my Tyson was only in five fights in his life the five fights where there was something to overcome and he didn't overcome it now I know people hate me for this including Tyson I understand hate me oh you're a hater because you won't

with him you didn't make the money because this because that because you got betrayed I think I'm better than that I hope I'm better than that I believe I'm better than that I'm not a hater I've broke his fights for 25 years on ESPN where there was some people in the corner I did not like and if

they did a good job this guy's doing a great job and then there were guys that I liked and I friendship but he messed up and we won't friends no more friendship got to be tested remember that so we won't friends no more but why did I do that because it was my job it was more important for me

when when it's all over with the only thing you left with is I mean we're gonna be dust all of us right the only thing we're left with is what carries on a reputation you know legacy whatever that is but our reputation so we're left with and that's all our kids are left with

I want it to be as good as it can be I've always had a ability I've done a lot things wrong and I've had a lot of lacking but the one strength I've had if I had a strength is to understand somehow to us Moses I guess to learn the lesson that was important is not words in front of you

for those five seconds for that moment in life is what's left behind you when those five seconds are gone when that what whatever it is that you deal with you know whatever the that moment is whatever that moment what you do in that moment the action of that moment is gonna stay with you

and be you it's gonna become you what what you face for that moment it's gone it's it's gone in the air in an instant it's gone it's done whether you take whether you stand up then you get shot in the head and the guy freaking blows your brains out or you're

freaking you're you stand up you're you're fighting a guy who's like an un scary guy to fight but you fight him and you beat him or he beats you up but how you represented yourself in that moment is all that matters that's gonna look what happened

don't matter it don't matter that you guys shot in the head I know that sounds absurd but if you believe that was important to stand up and head take the chance to get shot in a freaking head rather than to live like an empty vessel you know what that's all the freaking matters

and somehow that guy freaking wrapped into this freaking head of mine like that's what matters that's all the matters you know how many times I went and I I the things whether it was this one with Tyson with that I didn't want to be I was scared to death

but I was more scared I was more scared living with a grette how I would have felt yeah I don't want to be in solitary confinement of us in my life with that freaking guy in the cell next to me called regret I don't think I want to be next to that guy if I want to freaking go down that road

I'll watch papillon you know what I mean and I get my fill from that but I don't want to freaking live it I'm afraid of what my chosen to think of me if I fail in those areas why because that's forever when I'm closing my eyes for last time I I don't want to have that fear I don't

want to have that fear you know when I'm going down there or when I'm going up there you know I I I left because I I was I was around guys years ago that used to when we talk about that you know and just you know and I would get a kick out of this this one guy who've been around the

blog a few times when he say they tell you I ain't worried about that I got a friend in both places that's a good line and I yeah and I thought it was a I thought it was good uh listen my Tyson you want me to say it was a great fighter then you want me to betray what I really you know what I mean

you want me to do that I ain't doing it for listen I could do it to be a bigotety atlas and I know it would work for me I know it would be it do great promotional work for me I know it would it would make me more popular in certain area I know it I'm not that dumb not that dumb but I also know

what else it would do to me and I don't want it to do that to me I think he was a great talent I think maybe the night with microspinks maybe the night with my maybe he could have been that fighter maybe go but he didn't never really get tested but he might have been ready no matter what I have

to be tested that night that's how good he was that's how for even though it was a guy who used to be a light heavyweight I get it but we're still a guy who beat Larry Holmes who still had something left uh microspinks so at a great punch uh and an Olympic gold medalist but at a special fighter

wanted a great light heavyweight of all time you know what my Tyson was he was a meteor he was a meteor that struck across and not too many meteor and we still talk about him and and and unlike hell he's covered he came back and and he's walking around and he's he has become greater after

his career more loved more beloved more odd and he's been forgiven he found the fountain of forgiveness I don't know I wish I could find that where he has been forgotten for all his short comings all the things that he may have done may not have done we don't know only him and God know

but he's been forgiven of all that and he's been not only forgiven he's raised above it and and above that and been brought above that he's been brought to the pyramids of of of the greatest athletes that in the world and in every in every way in every way as a person

as a fighter as a historian as a figure as a celebrity I mean I mean you know even a philosopher everything yeah so I will take it back all right all you guys out there you forgive me he's the greatest of all time if you encapsulate all that if you encapsulate everything I just tried to

describe um and explain if you put that all he's the greatest of all time yeah he is but he still might be on five you know record of 55 fights he might in terriath this is book again I got friends of both places so it's okay where have I go I have company somebody there

will like me despite me saying this he might be on five because of five fights where there was something to overcome which really defines a fight he came he didn't find a way let me ask terriathless to introspect on the human nature here is part of the complexities of

your feelings on this whole thing is that you know to some degree that if you were coaching Mike Tyson he could be truly great I know cold I'm gonna cut you right off because you has a million dollar question I wish you didn't but you did you did because that's why do I get paid why you

get paid I get it you know the words how am I now that's why you all where you are and that's why I'm here the humility I'm gonna I'm gonna again full disclosure it's important right um I'm gonna cheat I'm gonna take some of Kuss's wisdom all right a little bit of mine yeah um Kuss told somebody that if terriathless got his way he might have been a better person but we would have risked him not being a great fighter now I believe and I thought Kuss did and I think he did up to that point in

his life that part of your strength of character made you a great fighter um and truly a great fighter and part of that battle to be a better person that that fight if you will to be a better person to overcome the things to be a better person um part of that fire you have

to go through to be a better person I really truly bought into it and I'm in for life that is really the only way to be a great fighter and I don't think that's what Kuss meant I don't mean I think he meant that Kuss knew more than I did of what was about to come and what would come

and what the world was but how people would try to steal him how people would take him how people would steal his guy the last thing he had to really the thing that he lived for because he lived to have another heavyweight champ the greatest fighter ever Kuss and Kuss is mine he could be and

I believe that Kuss knew that he he could perform a guy that had the ability to be the greatest fighter ever without fully completing the mission of what it takes to really be great but that he wouldn't he wouldn't be around to have to witness it and that he wouldn't he was well he would

uh man this is awful he's willing to concede that he might be dead in order to have eternal life in order to have greatness uh and which Kuss does have greatness a part of that greatness is attached to Tyson and he deserves it he deserved it because it was a great man and I wouldn't be here partly

without him but that was part of the calculation I know that's deep and I know that's well god I ate myself right now but um but because he knew he was getting out free he knew he was gonna not have to be there he was he was getting off easy I'll tell you how do you say someone's gonna be dead

they get off easy well I'll say it again Kuss didn't hear me right he he was gonna get off easy and not have to face where he came up short because he did his job because he put forward the greatest fight of all time and you guys screwed it up and he knew that that might happen but you guys screwed

it up and and whatever that's your fault that's on I'll tell you Tyson would be meditus but that's on Tyson how can you say that Teddy he loved me I'm not saying he didn't love you but he loved him he loved some other stuff too and I don't know if Tyson could ever come to

Cripp's light with that and it's not his job too but it's my job not to hide from it I know cousin dimensions that other people just only think they know the Kuss know the Kuss know this about himself they did he reflect the introspective he sent the message to me Kuss sent a guide to me

my wife was pregnant we were living in a apartment apartment in Katsuko on Kortis Kuvro we went through all this you know and I was getting ready to move to stand on and we stood with that for a little while before we did you know after all this went down he sent a guide to me

to the house secret whatever you want to call it my wife me so I listened to Kuss said if you leave I'm a messenger you know whatever if you leave this was in the aftermath of what the guy know thing you gotta remember Tyson was a word of the state

he was putting Kuss's custody Kuss was looking to adopt him five years reason so he had control and he loved him how dare I say anything less I won't but it made sense too but he was a water the state still you know what that means there's rules means the state still overlooking it

if he ain't living the right life you know he gotta remember he came out you know he came out of a jail so we formed school but if he ain't living like he could be taken away from Kuss what's not living the right life well he he wasn't a school normal they didn't know about it um

he he had some things that were going on we won't get into that right now in school and different things whatever and he had his train of put a gun to his head that is so good if a report came back to them that that happened he would have been taken away from Kuss that couldn't happen look nobody

knows this I talk about a little bit but never probably because why would I I don't know why am I doing it now I don't know because I don't know because I am because it's now because it's now maybe maybe because it's now I don't know so he sent this man that you know obviously we both knew

and he said he is the deal Teddy if no talk about this once it's you know this will be basically you leave and he will give you 5% his word can you imagine he will he will give you 5% of Tyson's earnings for the rest of his career and um but I don't regret it one bit because it wouldn't

happen anyway see that's where I I could be honest with my people say oh stand up guy because I don't shove it with you know you know in that place and and and tell Kuss to shove it in that freaking plate you know I was mad um Teddy Teddy don't get angry don't get angry are you out of

it you serious get out of here tell him to go shove it up and you know my wife is like huh but and then people like after why didn't you take the deal it wasn't a deal it was an escape clause for Kuss it was it was a it was an insurance policy that his you know this this kid wouldn't be

taking away from and thank God he wasn't I wasn't gonna go and say nothing they didn't have to worry about Kuss forgot who I was Kuss forgot why he went to court for me because of those because of those characteristics that he said he loved and he noticed and then that he admired I didn't lose

those characters he forgot that that was me he forgot who he was talking to he didn't have to do that how about that's why I told him to shove it up is that not because of the other insult and then and then when people said to me all you would stand up because it was around a little bit

it was around in the circles and then when people all stand up Teddy he didn't care about the money I said stand up Teddy what are you talking about how how about how about just realistic Teddy how did I live in a real world that I was never gonna get that money so I'm saying I'm standing up

to something that I knew never existed so I ain't stand up not that way I am in other ways maybe but not don't don't put a middle on my chest for that because because that never existed yeah it was never meant to exist but he didn't even understand that was the one thing that really

disappointed me because I was like Kuss you really allowed this to get to you where you where you allowed it to really fuck up your thinking to the point where you're smarter than that you're better than that that you would actually think you got a freaking off from me a freaking

pieces of silver yeah you really think that that's what you freak you like all that you told me that you love me and that we were you have a some young master and all this and and you think you were gonna buy me and I was gonna and I was gonna keep me quiet how about I will keep quiet because I

would always keep quiet so he thought maybe you might betray him it's not interesting yeah and why did he think that no no really fear yeah but yeah fear is at the essence of everything is a connected with everything fear of losing what he was gonna lose but it was more than fear

it was him not believing in the things that he told me believed it he didn't even know that he believed in me because I was a stand up guy because I because I didn't sell myself because because I you know I didn't freaking turn average I didn't make it deal

I didn't do I've not and that's why he went to court that's why he stood up for me and I appreciated and that was what he lived by and that was his you know those were the blocks of being a man oh so much for those blocks well it's like you said loyalty requires you know he would have had

to take a risk on losing immortality that he would achieve by creating that's the only way you have you want champion 100% but the only way you ever find out if somebody is hard that's hard is to test and it was cost this is Shakespearean you know this story because it's all me because

that and it just coming different forms yeah I said all right cause this was this test and and some people fast this test because they're able to pass that test because it's not really a test not for them because it doesn't speak to their weakness but it's the test that speaks to the

weakness that's the one so this one I get it I get what it spoke to because you know what at the end of the day I forgive you and I feel bad for you I feel bad that you were putting that position after you lived your life that way and that you that you taught that and you preached that from

the mountain tops that that you had to be that you had to be I'm not going to use the word but that that you had to fail yourself and that you had to somehow know that before you died I just prayed that you didn't know that and you still don't know that because you were great you were great

and um and you've given me something and I you're giving me something to to aspire towards to try to try to be less weak try to be better than try to be as good as you want it to be I wish I can someday more importantly I wish I could make my father you know feel just feel good up there

your grandfather now yeah for your grandchildren what if you can give them advice on how to live a life they can be proud of just um do everything you can to the best of your ability every day to like yourself to give yourself a reason to actually say I'd like to be friends with that guy is

loyalty one of the reasons one of the things to aspire to loyalty is your chance to have a fulfilled life loyalty should chance to have strength to have all the things you need to have a good life to be a good parent be a good husband be a good grandfather hopefully be a good role model loyalty is if you could find something to drink to take into your body to make you prepared for life to be all the things that you want to be to be strong enough to be those things loyalty would be

the thing you would drink and and when I say loyal I mean unequivocally I mean you know unconditionally not conveniently obviously you know that if you could be loyal you could be a good person you could be a person that you would actually like to be around because you could be a person you

could rely on and I think that's one of the greatest assets that a human being can have and what do you do when you're betrayed how do you overcome that you think of what you learned from it you said as a roadmap to remember and to think back of how you got there

and how you got to the place where you got betrayed and how that person got to that place try to remember that in your own journey as it for you made you cynical like how do you try how do you take the leap of trust towards people again and again after that just by remembering

that I'm still trying to forgive myself for the things that I came up short with and if I haven't figured that out yet it's probably okay to say they didn't figure it out yet they didn't get it they didn't figure it out and if I couldn't figure it out and I'm still trying to figure it out

maybe I could get over that initial stabbing of what it feels like it does feel kind of like a stabbing that you that you feel when you betrayed initially and that you could only think of of anger we avenge hatred I know things I'm not I'm not proud of that but I'm but I felt all those

things you know and I still feel them sometimes and then I go back and say hey you're still working at forgiving yourself for some things try to remember that kid you know when he's an important thing forgetfulness is pretty important too and I'm trying to remember why we forget

why do we forget because it wasn't something you felt proud of you think about your death are you afraid of it you know it's funny you asked that I never used to think about it I know people in both places you know I know you gotta cover

you're gonna be alright don't don't forget that yeah I know people in both places yeah um um both neighborhoods I I die um I've been I've been given credit for being brave in certain spots in life I hope I can be brave when it comes time to leave life I hope I can be you know

and that's you know that's just that's real and honest as you can be about it I hope I can be you know so far so good you know when when I've had to be certain things that was scared to freaking death um I found the way to beat them for the most part and um so I figured when

that day comes I figured that out too it's gonna be another test maybe the last one Teddy it's a huge honor to talk to you but it's my pleasure thank you for being the human you are for being honest honest about the full range of human nature and thank you for talking today

thank you thank you for having me and um thanks for listening thanks for listening to this conversation with Teddy Atlas the support the spot guest please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali I hated every minute of training but I said don't quit suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion thank you for listening and hope to see you next time