#290 – Dan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons

The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons, one of the most popular bands in the world with over 75 million records sold and with four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify. Given all that, Dan is one of the most down-to-earth, kind, thoughtful and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part by his lifelong struggle with mental health. The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance

are all there in this humble mind. For this reason, and many others, we became fast friends. Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which funny enough is where we start this wide-ranging, deeply personal and fun conversation.

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You get 20% off Grammarley premium by signing up at Grammarley.com slash Lex. That's 20% off at Grammarley.com slash Lex. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Dan Reynolds. So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming. What's the most beautiful program you've ever written something that brought you joy.

There's something I really love completion. It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting I like there being nothing and then having some blocks or tools and building them into what you want it to look like.

And then I find it incredibly rewarding to stand back and look at what you did at the end. It could be anything for me. It was as simple to begin with as just you know because it's our object oriented like making a cube move like that simple is that understanding that and knowing that I built that and made it do that is really rewarding.

And I think it's the thing that drew me into to wanting to learn more. But as far as what is some grand like some big piece of code that I've done like absolutely not it's more I'm still a level where it's more like what is a tutorial that I followed and got you know and then you know. Yeah, so I couldn't say I'm at a level where I've done anything beautiful at all in code but you're also interested in potentially like your heart is drawn to creating games.

Creating anything and completing it. Yeah, that's the good. The feel good is it's done. Yeah, I mean, I've been working over the last two years with actually a team out of Kiev on and then we can get into that it's all another story but on a computer game and really have kept that kind of under wraps but yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where we have a prototype that we can play and it's a lot of fun and thankfully all the team members are in safe places now.

Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit but you know when that started is when I really decided can you understand. Base level coding and C sharp so I'm not an idiot talking to these people and yeah, so it's yeah we've been doing that for a couple years. So any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming. I think it's a little bit more definitive.

There's debugging the code doesn't work is messy and so on there's the early design stages you're not sure like how to have functions in classes how it's all going to work and then it comes together and it's really done because it works and there's a cube moving on the screen right. Is there any parallels between that and music because are you really ever done done with a song.

It's it's exactly the same thing for me just in that it's art. I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists like when we say art I think most people think okay the medium must be painting or drawing or music or writing. But I really believe anytime you're creating some things engineers. For instance you're creating something with tools that you have and it can be incredibly beautiful.

And so yeah I think and it's never done. I feel like I look at songs that I've done and I never felt. You have to let go or I have to let go and that's all I'm just continually making myself let go but I look at songs that I've done and wish I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened and I'm really contained to because of what our band is and what our fans expect and there's so much more to it that it's like I'm fitting in a box always.

Yeah it's like this song shouldn't shouldn't be longer than three minutes and 30 seconds and I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it maybe I need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times it's like there's there's certain especially in pop music it's really hard to.

Yeah it's there's calm it feels like there's confines even though people are like well there's no confines but still everybody's writing a pop song it's a few minutes and those explicit in your mind or are they just kind of yet the gut is like you said course should you have course once twice or three times is that a good thing or is that a rule thing you know I think it's a rule I mean it's obviously a rule I impose on myself nobody's nobody's in my house saying hey Dan if you don't do this I'm going to punish you.

There's no major label president that's like imagine dragons needs to make pop music Dan you know what I mean my manager doesn't even tell me that I do it because it's what I perceive to be enjoyable I grew up listening to a ton of pop music and then I ended up being in what is quote unquote a rock band which I've never perceived it as that but that's kind of with the world has called it and that's fine but

so your prisoner of a prison that you yourself constructed there you go well I'm a confines are yours happy I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm a happy prisoner of the prison that I have created for myself and I made that prison thinking that it was a mansion so you worked with Rick Rubin was Rick think about your prison.

Rick was Rick was you know it was interesting to hear his outside opinion when we first met because my biggest focus for so much of my life my biggest fear was and I this stems from I think middle schools when I started but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself I read like the thought of

thinking you're good at something and really you're terrible at it and you're surrounded by people who are saying yeah you're good at it and then by themselves are like he's terrible at this just kind of and not just in regards to music or art but anything in life and I think maybe from having six older brothers stems from that to like always feeling inadequate and like the annoying younger brother you know but anyway so Rick's and that's something I've learned to like

go of as I've gotten older and and and had life experiences but one of the things that Rick said really early on that has stuck with me was he said yeah you know we were we're assuming the first time we met he said I'd really like to work with you because I feel like you don't you're not confined to a sound you've done a lot of different sounds and so it's exciting because I feel like your fans are forgiving more than other rock bands or bands because most people when they hear

you know and when they hear a band it's like there's a very specific sound with it it's like they do folk music or they do like California rock or they do surf or they do you know like there's and your fans kind of want that like they want them to do that thing and then they don't do it and sometimes I go as well but a lot of times it doesn't and people you know critics and everybody is like go back to the thing that you did good and do that

Rick was felt whether he was right or wrong that we could we could do we hop genres so much and that's been to our benefit and detriment I think

why detriment because people want you to to be something it's more you can believe it more I you know it's like it's more authentic if you if you never change I guess I don't know I mean it's certainly it's not something I subscribe to because I create music but but I also grew up listening to a lot of different genres like cats I would listen to like cat Stevens

and the next song would be like biggie and then the next song would be Nirvana and it was like I like a lot of it or and then Billy Joel and then and yeah is like you know what I mean I was a product and I was a product of the 90s which if you listen to 90s music it really was all a lot of reason that people say well 90s were terrible like a lot of people say that I love the 90s were my favorite

decade of music was there was a lot of genre hopping and and I don't know I I love that so you had the 90s had the boy bands and a Pearl Jam and Nirvana and it had a lot of like women of the 90s was probably my biggest influence like kind of that like angry rock women of the 90s like Lannis more set Jagger little pills one of my favorite records of all time the lyrics were so intimate and I don't know if she was angry or not I sorry if she wasn't

yeah but there was an anger to it there was angst yeah it was angstiness and that in hip hop of the 90s influences me and then my dad so anything my dad listened to which my dad didn't listen any that my dad listened to like Harry Nelson the Beatles cast even Bob Dylan Paul Simon Billy Joel it was very much like singer song writer you might if we throughout this listen to a few songs because you mentioned here in this and I was actually yesterday and the day before listening to a lot of

stuff and it's just like damn he's good and not as known as he should be like as getting you might if I play no please yeah I don't know not to not to open this conversation with a love song I would like that actually likes but without you is an incredible song oh man that's yeah and the heartbreak in the in the longing what he's the best to do it in my opinion in my opinion he's the best to do it the vocal range and just the sadness of like there's something I I don't even want to talk over

and because I this is one of my favorite songs to but I think people have a really good bullshit indicator and music in my opinion whenever I meet a young artist and say well it's I'm trying to make a new band and I want to do something like how to be successful I really

think understanding that people have a really good bullshit indicator is the most important part of being an artist and I'll explain what what that means at least to me I think that in order to have success or be a leader or whether it's an art or anything people need to believe that you believe what you're doing I think the best actors really when they're doing their thing it's like they it's not acting they're they're in it and it's how they feel and they're expressing that

Cesaro or joy or whatever it is Harry for me Harry Nelson he said I just believe it he could he sings that and I feel it and whether he's the greatest bullshit or of all time or it I don't think that's a case I think he probably was seeing that song

and he he just could transport himself to wherever he was it's what makes a great live act it's what makes a great song and someone could be the best actor and sing that in the same timber same EQ same compression same everything and there's some unknown there that I you know I don't I think it hopefully it will be known at some point at some scientific thing but there's something there that the energy or something that people can perceive it and say true or false

and if it resonates is true it's so much more meaningful and it lives on and if it doesn't that for me is what is good art or bad like for people to dispute over like will saunex stood sound like that silly to me it's like a song or or even a painting it's just the truthfulness of it yeah the truly great art goes has to go to that place where you really are feeling it like you forget that you're being recorded if you get there's an audience you really are feeling it

yeah which I totally agree with you one of the things that I love about the internet is it's brought the bullshit detector of the masses to power which is beautiful because then the masses uplift the really authentic right and even if you didn't write the song I think it helps a lot probably if you wrote the song but you know I was I was a little bit maybe a lot since when Vegas a little hardbroken that to find out that Elvis didn't write his songs but I like for example rock a man belt and john

like to find out the Ellen John didn't really know where the words of rock and man came from meaning like the depths of it it's interesting but nevertheless he's super authentic because for Ellen John and for Elvis there's something in the in the fun and the darkness and the entertainment of it like he goes to someplace in his mind that might not be deeply connected from where the lyrics came from but he relates it he relates it to whatever is in his mind and goes to that place emotionally

yeah and and that's what I think it is and that's why an actor like I said can be completely honest to me maybe they didn't write the script but I write like I've always written all my own lyrics it's a really personal thing to me but I will say I see people all the time who are performers like Elton John for instance who didn't write the lyrics that I believe that they it means just as much to them as what I wrote because they find the meaning in it for themselves at least the the greats do

and I think that that's the difference maker and I think you can perceive and I'm sure you've seen art that doesn't move you and maybe it moves someone else but for you for some reason you perceive it to be uninteresting to you and I feel like a lot of the time I'm going to say that it's of course

sonically maybe it's uninteresting to you but I think the majority of the time for myself I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting as long as I see it and I feel truth from the person that created it yeah but and for me the lyrics maybe not the entirety of the lyrics but a few words can can can do wonders to take you to a place and sometimes those words don't need to be connected with the other words that's the beauty of music they're allowed to float in the space of mixed metaphors

yes they're allowed to just jump around and somehow it paints a picture without actually what is it glycerine by a boy shirt right but it's also how the person says it right yeah it's the it's the feeling of exactly and the same person could say that word ten other ways

and you don't care but someone says glycerine or whatever it is and it's like oh you know what I feel that for some way the way he said that he meant it to me you know what I mean no I can't forget this evening or your face as you were leaving but I guess that's just the way the story goes

you always smile but in your eyes your sorrow shows yes it shows let me ask you to analyze this song do you so this is a lady possibly who's leaving him do you think he's leaving her or she's leaving him do you want to and the the course is I can't live if living is without you can't live I can't give anymore he's got a voice on him yeah he does and if you really there's been some incredible documentation on his life and the end of his life and so my answer to this is probably

skewed based on what I've seen about his life too but he he was a real alcoholic at the end of his life and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as well and so when I hear that I perceive it as someone who is destructive and an destructive place in life and can't love someone properly and so they can't live with them but they can't live without them type thing which is really something that I really identify with and I think is you know one of the struggles of life is loving

yourself enough forgiving yourself for for things and letting yourself love someone else and at you know at least when I listen to out of your hairy being like and maybe I'm wrong but this is how I perceive it at least is not loving

himself and feeling like he's deserving of this person like I have to let you go I hear that of course and people say oh well he's breaking up with her but there's so much more complexity and nuance to relationships and that knife in it for my wife and I went through really difficult separation

and that's you know a story for another day or different question or something but the nuance of it makes me think of this when I hear this which is there's just more to being with someone or not being with someone then hey I think that person's really attractive or hey that person makes me laugh or not or I love them and now I don't love them love is such a complex nuanced thing that a lot of times there's just more going on behind the scenes I think yeah on a

small tangent on that just a as a curious question have you paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and ever heard trials I have watched quite a bit of it because my wife really loves it and she watches it in bed at night so it's raw like to me it's really because you you've mentioned how complicated love can be and it's I've never seen I don't care about the celebrity nature of it I don't care if it was I don't care who it is yeah but it's just laid out in

such raw form the for the world this year for the world to see the toxicity but also the passion and and the clearly sort of the drugs and the drinking but also like the longing and the dreams and I will always be with you I will

die for you the places the roller coaster of love and it's all there at the end past the end so it's like I've also recently read the rise and fall that they're right about hitting on Nazi Germany it's the rise and fall and it's interesting to look at the entirety of that process after it's all over

many many decades after it's all over that book in particular written by the person that was actually there and so here we're seeing two people in the context of the courtroom analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair it's fascinating you know the truth is I was telling my wife this actually just the other day she was asking me what I thought about it it makes me really sad it's it's humorous don't get me wrong there's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny like

but I look at it and I also see the internet and you know someone's always the villain and someone's the hero which is such a funny thing and we talked a little about this offline before we got on this but I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than you think always always and we in and Johnny for instance is very charismatic and you you love him and he's funny and this way he does things and he looks certain ways and he says things

he's just you really love him and I feel like and maybe I'm wrong in this but it looks like the internet is really live and like Johnny is the winner Amber is is the villain and I kind of look at it yeah and I kind of look at it and I feel like where any of you in their bedroom like where any of you

there for these things and I'm not saying one way or the other like the all I see when I look at that is two people with a lot of deep seated hurt anger and that anger is so poisonous to both of them and they're and they're getting through it in the way that they only know how and I'm not saying

that we should you know we shouldn't be able to look at parts of in laugh about it and stuff and and be virtuous or something but just that there's not a hero I yeah I think unless you're you've been living with Amber and Johnny you don't know just because one seems more charismatic in the moment or

funny or or more believable even doesn't mean that their truth is the truth and I I feel like there's still love there too which makes oh that's the hardest part he won't even look at her he looks down the whole time and maybe people say well it's because anger or or hurt or whatever

but I the way she looks and stuff it feels it just feels like there's so much hurt there that it hurt it hurts me to watch it I just feel like oh my heart just like aches for them and and for both of them and I don't know either

them personally and and you know I don't know just hurts but it's I've never I've never seen sort of love laid out in this rock kind of way it makes me feel better about like it almost gives you seeing people have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way gives you room to

struggle yourself about the messiness of love true like you're supposed to like relationship is supposed to be simple and whatever but this like oh man this is like a heart yeah and and for the record like I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown like I think it's actually really beautiful art and I agree there's going to be a lot of people who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways or look at things different must change the whole world the Johnny

Devtrop it's art it's just like you would look at a painting it might affect you my only commentary is more that there's not I think it's silly when people say who's right and who's wrong and who's the clear villain and who's the like

we love as human we have to have an answer for everything we have to put everything in a box and it's like well we're looking at this and we're deciding you're right and you're wrong and and I just think it's it's silly unless it's your life so speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows you

grew up in Las Vegas and you said that Vegas is a performing town a town of high stakes and drama and eccentricity it's a town of high highs and low lows and I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out that correlation out to me

personally a long time ago so to me Vegas from the outside is romanticized by certain movies the lows define the beauty of this town and certain movies so to me casino was Robert De Niro Joe Pesci and Sharon Stone leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage she's here unloading Las Vegas with the

journey to have a hundred stops and first of all what's your favorite representation of Vegas from a darker side and do you draw any wisdom inside from the the the darkness that lows in the highs from in those movies or is it over romanticized so I grew up in a really conservative

Mormon family and Vegas was established by the Mormons and the mob those were like the two very different worlds that created what Vegas is and if you live in Vegas it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has the you know the strip

and the parties and the craziness but it also has very like neighborhoods and and big families and conservative people and and and liberal people living together in a really interesting way and for me growing up here what instance was a lot of like driving on the freeway my mom being like children

close your eyes there's a naked woman on that billboard and every yeah okay mom on our way to church you know what I mean it was like but also being like whoa this is crazy yeah you know what I could yeah yeah so I saw and I'm grateful for that like I really love that I didn't grow up as a Mormon

in for instance like Utah or something like the typical place because I I saw both sides and I appreciated something from both sides and now as a person now who's not religious but just spiritually minded you know I I I'm grateful for that divergent character that juxtaposition duoleged sword

that Vegas is and I try to apply that to everything in life which is like Johnny Depp in the Amber it's like there's two sides to every story there's always two sides to every coin there's always and there's something to be said for both like I try to see people and even if you know it's just yeah I try to apply that to life as far as a movie that personifies Vegas or or something and that medium that personifies Vegas in a way that that resonates with me don't

say hangover no no yeah I also like I wasn't even allowed to watch PG-13 movies growing up so I a lot of the movies that you're saying like I didn't see I didn't have cable television you know I wasn't like a pilgrim but I had a really really conservative upbringing so it didn't define your intellectual like development no no I just I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like that's my Vegas movie you know what I mean like I'm sure I've

seen some of the movies you've said now but I don't I can't think of one that I'm like actually personifies Vegas in a way that feels honest to me like or or like wasn't there a Chevy was there a Chevy Chase yeah I think that's

maybe the only one I thought of that came in line where I was like because I love Chevy Chase so much that maybe it's one of his biggest Vegas vacation or something yeah so but that's more like lighthearted yeah so that kind of stuff right it's not like I guess what I would say is there's no truth

pers that has been in that I've seen a Vegas because what I see of Vegas is there's obviously like the parties and stuff in the night life which I'm not a big party person so I haven't really experienced much of that but I've also

there's also drugs and I have a strange relationship with drugs that have lost a few friends to drug overdoses and so I don't Roman that's not romantic to me but there's also like yeah I mean you asked for a dark reflection of I can I guess I certainly see a dark reflection to Vegas and I don't I

feel like Vegas is typically personified it's like at the tables and I resist but it's also like I have like friends who've lost all their money to gambling addiction and and so it's like what I guess the the whole thing yeah somebody maybe needs to make maybe that's an open spot there

needs to be a dark side to Vegas well we've got Mormons and Vegas that's dying the mob drug overdose or getting shot by the mob yeah so you mentioned your spirituality you've you said that having a crisis of faith or just the philosophical question of asking who is God does God exist or in thinking of the flip side of that mortality what happens when we die those kinds of things were extremely difficult deep things for you in terms of your development the

process of figuring that out what does it hurt so much to lose faith in God yeah I would say that the seeking of God let's say that is an obsession for me and has been since I was young I really feel that I'm a deep deep deeply like committed to finding answers in life and there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to and I'm also very OCD by nature so I just don't give up to that I'm like well there must be somewhere in Tibet there's some teacher or there's

somebody out there that has the answer or maybe it's yet to be found I'm going to find it I'm really my life is can bend to date probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God or the lack thereof and mortality it's all I think about it's all our records have been about who do you think is God have you ever gotten a glimpse you know I will say the closest I feel like I have been to experiencing God is and this sounds so maybe I don't know I don't know how it sounds

but is through ayahuasca for me that's that's my honest answer for you I feel like I had pretty much given up all hope of there being anything greater than you know us being you know evolving and being here and then dying and you're gone and that's it nothingness and from nothingness we came and nothingness we go to where I am now which is there are answers to be found I don't know them like I don't know what God looks like or if God is anything to do with the word God in the way that we say it

but I do believe pretty fervently that there is more to be found Is it motion sensor or no I don't know what that was looks like they have all died actually do you know which one of it is this one right here one of it is you know I don't know if you can do it I'll take it out

do you know who this chair see if I can get it like this yeah I'm almost there I really don't know I'll change these probably yeah how many people does it take to what is it on scroll light bulb it was hot too like I was doing like the two finger like technique

I'm glad you survived that thanks that'd be pretty ironic if we talk about mortality and then this would be it for you I've never done I was so it's a mixture of two plants one of them is DMT but a lot of people I really respect very very intelligent people I'd profound experiences with I was what is that what where do you go where does the mind go what what the heck is up with that I'll first say that I am like I can't even smoke weed I really do not enjoy it because I hate to let go of control

like if I feel out of control and life it's like one of my biggest weaknesses it's like very scary for me I don't and some people you know really enjoy letting go in that way I really don't so I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to I wasca

but my wife who I deeply respect made a profound change through I wasca and I saw it she led the way yeah and it wasn't a strange like I think most we have a thing in America that's like a misconception a stigma on psychedelics where you know it's like it's a drug and it makes some people crazy

and then you're going to be on the street and you're going to be out of your mind or you're going to become like you know a crazy person basically and I think I really bought into that notion because again I was raised I wasn't even raised with cables TV you know I mean like I wasca is very like I didn't you know you can imagine what that was like for a Mormon kid I didn't know anything about it never touch drugs at all and never even touch to cigarette you know

anyway so I think we have this misconception about it where Americans are quick to go to their doctor and take any medication or drug but you know whoa when it comes to like psychedelics anyway that being said I so I had that trepidation going into it but I really love and respect my wife

and I saw it make a profound impact in her life where she suddenly was able to heal from a lot of trauma that she has she went through a lot in her life and it really helped her heal but it also set her in a new path spiritually that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be

so I did it and I did it twice the first time it didn't really have an effect on me which happens to a lot of people I guess I drank you know this little thing and there was like this shaman who came over from overseas that was really had been in the plant you know world for decades and was a really incredible I don't even know if he likes to be called shaman but so it's supposed to be like 30-60 minute to take effect and a few hours the journey lasts about four hours

yeah so the second time I took it I took it in I would say 20-30 minutes in exactly I started to I started to feel like I was like the dimension of what is reality the curtain was pulled open and there was a lot more to discover and it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind if for instance God descended or some Christian God or whatever it is we all think it be this beautiful thing

but in reality it would probably make people super fearful and think that they've lost their mind like I've always yeah I've always like joke that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom if God himself came down and told my mom Mormonism is incorrect you would say Satan

yeah you know yeah we're never I think our minds are just not prepared for a lot of of anything that's really extreme and it was very extreme it was like the curtain of life was was cut open which scared me but then I felt very much and a lot of people that I've talked to have a similar thing

where it felt very much like I was either communicating with something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of self or mind or mother earth or you know it's called so many different names but it's really it's very a lot of people have a very spiritual similar experience with ayahuasca

and just in that it's like this kind of profoundness it wasn't like there was nothing at least for me that was that felt like just like my like psychedelic funny cartoons or something it was like I'm about to go on a journey and it's and I'm going to communicate

I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise showed me a lot of things in my life kind of almost like from a bird's eye almost like I was looking through a video camera at a younger me there was a particular thing that it communicated to me I really have a hard time with with accepting success and not feeling like feeling undeserving or something I can't quite put it into words but of of my position and what I've been given I've been given so much

and it showed me this thing from when I was young and explained to me why I am where I am now and I to this day like it did not feel like myself telling myself that that's the only way I can explain it like and there was a lot more that it showed me and that was incredibly healing for me

but just to be like to put it into a short thing because there's so much to this it felt I walked away feeling very convinced that there is more to be known for sure and a lot of my deep like things that were traumatic for me didn't feel traumatic anymore specifically crisis of faith

I was very angry at my parents and my community for raising me in what I perceived to be falsehoods and that I felt like the bad rock of everything I believed was ripped out for me in my 20s and then it was like good luck in life but really my parents had given me everything that they could

and they believed that very much so still but a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped and thus I had been duped but I was get really showed me this road map of like this is truth and you're concerning yourself about a grain of sand which is Mormonism or whatever it is

and there may be some truth in that tiny grain of sand and there may be falsities but so is all these other grains of sand like focus on the truth stop focusing on these little details that are meaningless and forgive and let go of people believing in those things to begin with

I don't know if that makes sense but that was like the core thing I was taught and to let go of control stop needing to control everything and it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere it's really I do not believe at least in my current self I don't have that

the mindfulness that I believe that exists in me to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did and there was a lot more to it that would be for like a late night conversation with you but it's so hard to put it into you feel like a crazy person

any at least at any time I talk about I wasca to someone who hasn't done it I'm like I don't even know where to begin like how do you explain to someone that you felt like that a multiple dimension type thing happened in a way that like putting it into words

and none of it was words by the way that was communicated to me it was like you know people talk about telepathy and if it existed it would be like I could communicate to you in such a deeper way I'm so confined by me having to articulate these words and put them in a sentence to you Lex

and then tell you like if only I could just be like yeah and emotions do that sometimes right you could see my emotions and be like oh that communicates a lot so that's what it felt like to me with I wasca it felt like it was communicating to me very clear things

but it wasn't like Daniel it's me mother earth let me relax it back let me show you but it very it was very clear to me what was being said and no it did not feel like me but maybe science smarter people than me who've done it would say well was you I don't know but they're convincing

there's a lot of stuff in that subconscious that we haven't explored like we haven't explored the depth of the ocean we haven't really figured out what's that the younging shadow what's going on underneath the surface of our conscious mind

and what is that connecting to is that is that just inside our mind there's some kind of is there some kind of collective intelligence going on where all humans are connected to one kind of greater organism like what is consciousness we have a lot of hubris in thinking we understand any of it

like how the mind works at all like what is it like where what is the origin of consciousness what is the origin of intelligence there's a lot of hubris about this we give each other PhDs and Nobel prizes and congratulate ourselves as if we figured it all out but humility is helpful here

nevertheless that is the question that humans have been asking for ever since humans were humans which is the question of mortality the question of God so whether it's hamlet to be or not to be I think that's the hardest the most important question Albert Camus asked why live

so in terms of crisis of faith in terms of your search for truth in terms of some of the dark places you've gone on your mind what's the good answer to this question so for Camus with mythosysophys it was the question of suicide is what's the purpose like what's the good answer to why I keep going

especially when you're struggling especially when you're not when you're feeling hopeless when you're feeling like a burden in this search for truth where you feel like you're surrounded by lies what's the good answer to why I live I think you have a final one

well it's the simple answer right now is to say for it's very easy once you have kids to say the right answer is you just of course you brought these kids into the world so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father to them to always be there

for as long as I humanly can and to take care of them and protect them it's the most innate sense in me it's wired in my animal existence so if I take that away because that's kind of cheating let's put that aside because it is cheating it's cheating

there's still some fundamental way in which you're alone yeah and to that that actually has been a real struggle for me for many years I had a real turning point early in my career where we were flying somewhere overseas and we were in a really small plane and the lights went out

and like all these red lights were flashing and the plane just started to dive completely like scariest plane experience I've ever been in my manager was next to me and my brother he was crying and texting his wife a goodbye that's how like crazy this moment was was it really like genuine?

genuine? like genuine engine went out plane is going down pilots looking like crazy in the front and it was a really tiny jet and like I said my brother next to me crying typing a text to his wife really really scary I felt nothing I genuinely sat there and I was like this might actually be nice

like I really felt like this goes down and like ah man life sucks and it's hard and that sounds so ridiculous I know to say because I again I'm in a different place now and I see my life for what it is but at that moment I did not so life was primarily defined by suffering it was a burden

it was I fell lifted I was incredibly depressed I had been trying different medications since I was young and I just had not found anything that was working for me and then I was in a faith crisis lost all my faith started a band I wasn't ever thinking that this band

I was like when you call your band imagine dragons you're not thinking that bands if you pick okay I was like this was like a side project that was fun for me it was like art in college I was at in school and I was like man I hate this biology class I'm going to write down band names

you know what I mean like it was not hey put everything aside this is my career let's go like it just it happened I like to be at home with a couple of friends and have a late-night conversation over good food like that to me is a perfect night read a good book listen to a podcast go on a walk

you know those are things that I really really enjoy and suddenly I'm in this life where I'm like supposed to be something that I really don't want to be except for on stage which is a really fast and like strange thing to me which is on stage and then I come off and I just feel like

shrivel back into a show like it's a music does that for me and performing on a stage does that for me can we take a small tangent on this yeah yeah of course what's the high you can go through that the introvert that wants to cut a lop and read a book you're the frontman of one of the

if not the biggest rock bands the high of that and how can you land back on earth the high of it it's incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage sing these songs that you wrote and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them different cultures different places celebrate life

and the world seems like fantastic place it feels like we're all on the same team it's like one big hug yeah it's like everybody in that room gets it and they all it just it feels like what you want the world to be which is just like this co-existing unit of people and it's not even about like

you know I just it's incredible and then you walk off stage and you turn on the news and it's like you see we're all against each other everybody hates each other and it feels that way in the world so music really that's why live music is so important to people

that's why music is so important to people because even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song you're listening to it and the two of you feel connected you know it's like I get it and you feel connected that person you don't feel alone so that's the high of it for sure

and then you get off stage and then you know as my like my uncle's a heart surgeon incredible heart surgeon who like writes the book like he's like the guy that the heart surgeon's talk to he's out of Nashville Tennessee he's just incredible genius man he always worries and always reach out to me

all the time the reason they die you know it's because you're getting on stage and your heart's doing this and your quarter-zone levels are doing this you're getting off stage and then you're just doing this and it's a really real thing like you get off stage and you feel like you need drugs

because you're like I the world feels like incredibly daunting and it's also I'm sure has to do with like some like health things and your heart and the quarter-zone levels that are so crazy and then you come off and it's like people are like well then nothing's enough except math

that is enough except heroin and that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff and I don't say it in a preach I don't say it in a preach way like I've struggled with drug abuse in my life and I really I understand why artists turn to it but also the fact that you're introvert

so the other side of it the fame that's something that you also said is a double-edged sword for you the interesting thing about fame is that you also mentioned is this something you can't take back so it's a thing you can't just like go on vacation in Hawaii and it's like consider do I like it or not?

no you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life and you've never been there before whether you like it or not so what's that like being you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people which is perhaps the best kind of fame in terms of if you have to choose the kinds of fames and still being an introvert and all that kind of stuff so what do you do you feel alone more alone being famous is there a loneliness?

yeah I mean it's such a funny thing because for if you would ask if we were having this conversation a couple years ago I'd be incredibly guarded about this because the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful or unaware of how much I have and what is the famous celebrity with money? oh is your life hard? is it really telling me about how hard it is?

but I'm also in a place in life now where I just like I'm not always to speak my truth because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm here to speak my truth to you so I'm going to tell you my truth whether it's or not and feelings are real and so and that's the interesting thing you win a lottery what's that going to feel like?

it's not about complaining oh it's so hard to win a lottery because you get a lot of money you know it's still you're human you get to experience these feelings and it's fascinating you put humans in different situations and it's also fascinating because a lot of people think well I would like to be famous and then it's very interesting to think well once you arrive are all the problems solved?

no yeah so I will tell you according to me what the pitfalls are whether it's fear or not and there are certainly some pitfalls once you're there you can't go back whatever maybe that's fine because maybe you love it but the real pitfall for me is that you're now

you're Lex and you're what everybody's perception is that Lex is and that's what you are now Lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated and has a lot more to Lex than the Lex that is the celebrity so but anybody who meets you that's who you are to them and you may you may not feel this way

but you may feel confined to actually have to be that person to that person like I've early in my career for a long time anytime I met someone I suddenly felt like I had to be Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons anytime I met someone including my family now who were also like whoa this is crazy

you're like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons and I wanted to just be the goof ball that I have been my whole life with my brothers and family but suddenly I found myself feeling like no I have to be this because that's who this is I've heard a lot of actors talk about this

whether take on a role and then it's like they feel like they have to they've become that and it's a really scary thing like you alter who you are almost to fit the notion of other people because especially if a lot of artists are empaths you know a lot of people get into art

in a deep way are empaths and so you feel a lot of what people are feeling and you're never wanting to burden people and you're always wanting to deliver to that person you know what they want is like people pleasing is is there it goes hand in hand with a lot of like

these famous people and they get to where they were because they know how to do that they know how to be in a room with someone and look them in the eye and make them feel like they're the only person in the room and then now they got that role in that movie

because they sat with the casting director and they were like oh yeah so funny oh anybody took like put on the charisma do it all and it's like anyway I'm like I'm going on a different tangent here but long story short there's a lot of things that are really unhealthy about it and then a lot of people who want the fame and the second it starts to go way then they're like who am I anymore?

that was everything and now I'm like on the down and now I'm not a famous person anymore and now I hate myself now I'm going to do drugs and it's like it's like this vicious cycle like you could never be famous enough you're always going to get like there's just so much to it that I've just

I've lost friends in this career to do that for sure and there's a certain element to sort of just on the the losing fame I've interacted with a lot of folks especially young folks like in YouTube so fame is a thing that has levels you're always trying to be a little more famous

a lot of folks were chasing fame it doesn't matter how famous you are you're always trying to chase more the things can happen if you're not self-aware which is like like you mentioned you might be trying to grasp back where you were by leaning into the formula that got you there

so the constraints of the image that you mentioned becomes the thing that you're now trying to lean into like and that's actually walking away from where you really are like you lean further into for even on YouTube, which is people acting. They have a role that got them to the table somehow. Yeah, it's dark, but I think those are, that's just put for everybody to see, but that's a very human struggle, even when you're not famous.

It's finding yourself of being yourself, of not doing the people pleasing at any scale and being trapped by that. Yeah, and also feeling like it's never enough. I think that's something all, it's not just the famous thing, but it's like, and everybody deals with feeling like, when I'm here, I'll be happy. When I get that job, I'll be happy. When I have that money, then I'll be happy. When I get that surgery and my nose looks like this, I will be happy then.

It's like a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness. It's like the opposite of self love, it's the opposite of happiness. There's no presence to it. You're constant. You're never going to find it. You're never gonna arrive, and you're just gonna live your life, and then you're gonna be on your deathbed and be like, I was chasing the wrong thing, the whole life. I should say that podcasts are interesting in that way.

So for me personally, because you just talk a lot, you can't, people that meet you, they know you, and they know the evolution of you. And that's the same thing for you right now, a Dan of Imagine Dragons, you're just being on a podcast, long form reveals a side that liberates you more to be yourself. People see that, oh, there's a human.

Because music, they have a deep connection with you, they have experiences with you, the way they experienced it, that's who you are with them through the songs. But now you get to see, oh, that's a human being. You probably get angry, you get sad, you get excited, he's hopeful, and there's a core, there's a good human being with all the whole rollercoaster of emotions out there. It's a giant, beautiful mess. And podcasts reveal that, that's why I love podcasts, like long form.

You get to hear some artists and actors and so on. And some of them, you get to see, oh, you've lost yourself in the surface. That's a tragedy with some actors, some great actors. They've left so much of themselves in the roles they've played, that they can no longer be the thing they were before, those great roles. That's for sure. It's hard to see. So you get to see that with Johnny Depp, I don't know, Pirates. He was talking about that with Pirates of the Caribbean. That was a shift.

Like he's not that guy. Right. He's forever, forever, forever that guy. But the point is to remember that you're not. And to your family, she's interesting, you said to your family, when I see people close to me, they also, there is an element like that while you're that they start treating like the famous person. Yeah, I'm fortunate to have my manager, who's my brother, my older brother, and my lawyer is my other older brother. And that's been helpful because, it's weird.

It gets weird with everyone, no matter what. One of the best advice I was given was by Charlie Sheen. You got advice from Charlie Sheen. Yeah, we were playing the wise sage of our generation. The wise sage, sage Charlie Sheen. But it was, it was really wise. I was sitting next to him and we were playing some late night television. He said, this was right at the beginning. He just said, boys, just mark my words. Your life is about to get really weird. That's all I said.

But it stuck with me forever in his Charlie Sheen's, of course, sticks with you. And I remember being like, right, okay, Charlie Sheen, I'm not Charlie Sheen, it's not gonna get weird like, you know. But it got really, really weird, really quick. Because suddenly, you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just, everything you get, you achieved, it was because you got it.

And every conversation you had, like if someone liked you at the end of that conversation, well, it's because they liked you. If they didn't like you, it's because they didn't like you. And you could make complete peace with that. At least I could my whole life. I was like, life is a challenge. And be myself and I'm gonna go through it and find some people along the way that I connect with and others know. And that social integrity is so important to us.

And we think it would be nice to have this, and this is going back to the pitfalls of it. We think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like, and you could be like, dumpster fire. And everybody's like, oh my gosh, dumpster fire, that was amazing. Yeah, you said dumpster fire was amazing. It's like, it's incredibly lonely. And it just breaks everything that you knew about humanness. And it sucks. So then you're seeking out people who that it doesn't exist with.

And families are closest you can get to that for sure. But even your family, it's gonna take a little bit where they're like, oh, this is a little weird. All my friends at work are now asking about you. And you're my young, stupid brother. But now you're suddenly like the young, stupid brother that they want to autograph from and stuff. And it still makes, they have to get over that and figure that out. And then you meet people too who know about this whole concept.

And they're like, well, I'm gonna be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe. Yes. And you're dealing with people who are like, dumpster fire and the person who's like, you know, you could say something actually profound and nice and they'd be like, that's stupid and you're an idiot. Yeah. Because it's like an actual attempt to like show you how much they don't care.

So you live in this very, like, this still nevertheless, even when nobody knew you, you were seeking for deep human connection with a small number of people. And now when a lot of people know you, you're still looking for deep connection with a small number of people, the struggle was the same. Yeah. Can you speak to, because you mentioned some of the dark moments, what advice would you give to people who are struggling with depression?

And maybe for the people who love the people who are struggling with depression? So what I have found to be most successful for me, is it's back to the basics of everything that the therapist or psychologist will tell you. Psychiatrist will tell you right when you meet them, which is exercise every day. Eat healthy for sure. Find time, make time every day to do something that you love, whatever that may be, whatever brings you joy.

And you might, and when you're really depressed, that actually feels like nothing. Cause the things that brought you joy, don't bring you joy anymore. When I'm really in the thick of it. But for me, all, this is the cycle that I'll go through is I'll look at my life and I'll say, okay, what can I clean up? All right, well, for me, it was cutting out alcohol actually helped me a lot. I know that sounds like big. I'm not judging anybody for that.

And I still drink on occasion, but I felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful to my mental state. Feel less drive and less happiness. The next day for things that I wanna do, I feel like it plays a lot with your serotonin. So look for stuff to change. Clean living, yeah, clean living, but also understanding that sometimes it's just, it just is, and you just keep breathing. And it will get better with time. Just too shall pass. This is a good idea.

I really think that in the winter, I'm pretty sure, I mean, I've had a lot of therapists and all of them say the same thing, which is like, you have major depressive disorder and this is what it is, but it's certainly worse for me in the winter months. So I know there's like, I can't think of the term for it, but there's a term for seasonal depression there it is. So I'll get to the winter and suddenly I'm like, geez, everything really sucks on a deeper level.

And then, so it's like this too shall pass is another thing. It's like just practice those things. Absolutely see a therapist. That's my biggest, like my biggest emphasis of life is to like, on stage, like my goal, like I have a few things that I really, really care about. One is, is mental health, health, and destigmatizing therapy. Cause for me, I didn't go to therapy for a long time because I felt that it would be admitting that I was broken.

It'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex, who doesn't have to go to a therapist because Lex is stronger. So be strong like Lex. I would like look at all my older brothers and I looked up to them so much and they were all these incredibly successful people. Plastic surgeon, anesthesiologist, the dentist, two attorneys, Stanford, NYU, like just like incredible high standards, Eagle scouts, you know, like they, Valle Victorians, like they just did it all.

So for me, I was very, really did not want to it. And none of them went to therapy. So it was like, what are you gonna be? Are you, are you broken? Are you like the weak one who can't hack life? And I think that's incredibly dangerous. And I feel like it almost cost me my life because I took so long to finally go to therapy. So I really want kids to know, hey, like the great people that achieve great things that are doing amazing things, they probably have help, almost all of them.

Is that going to the gym, but it's a mental gym? What, so I, unfortunately, I want to be a psychiatrist when I was growing up. Maybe that's why I like podcasts. Maybe that's, I think you'd be a good one. Maybe I would, I would, I think you are a psychiatrist. Pretty much, right? That's, I think you're a psychiatrist.

I think I need more, I think, I think actually to be a good psychiatrist, you also need to be seeking therapy from the, like you also need to be, have some stuff to work through in your mind. I think, yeah, you have to have gone to some dark places. What is the, the empathy, it's the ability to empathize and especially if you've directly experienced it, you can go to those places in your mind. Like you said, it's with the music, to be authentic, you have to really go there.

What, why the therapy helps so much? What is the process of therapy if you can just educate a little more? Is it, are you basically bringing to the surface and talking through things that you, because of the momentum of life, you just never allow yourself to speak through, to think through, is that what therapy is? Or is there some more systematic thing? So I've been to a lot of strange, different kinds of therapy.

So I'll tell you, my first therapist, if I could sort of interrupt, how hard is it to find a therapist that connected with you? It is, it's actually pretty hard, I think. I think, I think for, well, actually I have a skewed view of that because going back to the beginning of my therapy was with a Mormon therapist. So it was very much like, well, are you reading your book of Mormon? And are you praying at night? You know what I mean? Like that was a big focus of my therapy to begin with.

And you're having a faith crisis in the distance, so I was like, well, and then, you're praying at the worst. Yes, the next therapist I went to was a Scientology therapist. I met my wife and she was Scientologist at the time, and she's not anymore. But she's like, it's such a funny thing to look back on because we met, and I was like this Mormon missionary who had just got home from his mission, and I met her and I was, she's Scientologist. I was like, wow, that's bad shit, crazy.

Like that stuff's crazy and she's like, what are you talking about? That's your crazy. You're Mormon, that's bad shit, crazy. And the two of us were like, huh, maybe there's something to this to bowl with us here. Yeah, the tension actually forces you to think through what is true. Yeah, what is true. And we really fell in love through that, which was like maybe we're both on the wrong track. Let's figure this out.

But before that happened, we went to a Scientologist therapist who that therapy consisted of what have you done wrong to Asia? And they asked, they would ask me that question over and over and over and over. And Tom, like thinking of the deepest, darkest things that were in the recesses of my mind, this was a therapy, this was marriage therapy. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into that, but it was, it was Scientology therapy. So that was different thing. And then I went to therapy therapy.

Like, no, it's not attached to any religion. And that was a really great experience for me. And since then, I've been through a couple different therapists, but that was more because where I was moving and things like that. So is it that hard to find a great therapist? Probably not, but maybe don't go to your Mormon therapist first in that Scientology therapist. Or maybe that's the route for you. Maybe it's the route for you, I don't know.

Yeah, but what is, so is it bringing stuff to the surface, basically? What's the last slide of? Oh, you asked, I didn't even answer your question. What's the effect, why is this so effective? Just, is there something you could be words to? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, obviously there's the common things you would think of, which is like, I've been holding these things in, and then I don't wanna tell anybody, and then I tell this person, and there's relief in that.

But that's really not where the real work comes from. I think the real work is meeting with someone who is well-versed and educated and understands. It's like, it's like coding. It really is. It's like someone who, like, they listen to you, and they're like, well, that was a trigger, and then this became this trigger, and you're probably, every time you're hearing that, thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life, and they just will walk you through scenarios,

and maybe some of them aren't right, but some of them, you'll be like, it'll resonate sometimes, you're like, wow, I am feeling that because of that, and that did happen, and maybe if I call my mom and say this to her, it will make me feel better. Hey, mom, this happened, it's like work. You put in work, and you have hard conversations and do difficult things, and if, so if you're at therapy's not difficult, I actually think that's not good therapy.

Good therapy is, it's gonna be a little difficult. It's work. Like, during and after. Yes, I had this incredible therapist, who I told him when I was gonna do Iowasca, he was like, Jesus, you know, he had actually was a doctor before, and really well-educated study person who had walked away from brain doctor. What's the word for that? Brain doctor. Brain surgeon, neurologist. No, yeah, neurologist.

And he said, well, basically his belief was that Iowasca was like basically doing therapy, like 50 sessions. He was like, it's like really intensive. He was like, I don't know if you wanna do that. If you do, you can make some big steps forward, but I prefer just to do one session at a time. And say, it's hard work. And I typically, it's really hard for me to even talk about Iowasca by the way, going back to that, because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go to Iowasca. It's incredibly hard.

It was the scariest experience of my entire life. It felt like I went to heaven, but it also felt like I went to the darkest, deepest hell that was incredibly scary, incredibly scary. Yeah. So you told the story of how you wrote the song, believe it, or like your childhood friend, I guess, a Donald, like bullying and that kind of stuff. This song, a lot of your songs are super interesting. It's sort of, there's a percussion, super interesting, super interesting, lyrically, just how it flows.

And also, pain is at the center of it. I mean, a lot of, like you said, the crisis of faith, some of these existential questions are basically behind a lot of your songs, funny enough. Maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see. But it's there, and this song is really, it's really interesting in that way that it puts, pain, you made me a believer. You break me down, you build me up, believer. That's so interesting. Maybe can you tell the story of how the song came to be?

I'd love to listen to it too. I have some questions musically about it too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy. I just feel like the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt, like losing someone that you love, is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me, at least thus far, like when I think of, okay, what was the hardest thing?

There's like, you think of physical pain, or maybe like going through financial pain, or whatever, I think losing someone that you really love to death is one of the hardest.

For me, I would say it was the hardest, but it also makes you look at your life completely differently, and alter your life, at least for me, in ways that were really healthy, being more present, letting go of things that were meaningless, trying to control what other people think about you, like wasting your time on things like that, and you suddenly see like, wow, like time, I got a small amount of time, like, how do I want to spend it?

I'm gonna spend it in the best way I know how, and that's it. So, yeah, I mean, that's, it's a basic concept that's been set a million times over in a million different ways, but that's pretty much what I was trying to say with Believer, which is like, I've lost faith in everything at that time period, and you know, or previous to that time period,

and then I was rebuilding my faith, or my spiritual thought process, and it was after I was given, it was like, you know, finding being a Believer, and that's not necessarily like, a Believer in God, or a Believer in Heaven and Hell, or anything like that, but a Believer in more,

believing in goodness, believing in that there is some light, like, and again, those words, like, they're just words, and I wish there were better words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express, but just more, like, the thought of me dying for me, I don't fear it, I don't fear it, but actually, I really fear not seeing my kids again. I'll say that, that is fearful for me.

I feel like I love so deeply these children that the thought of like leaving them, for me is a scary thought, or something. They're kind of good reminder how much you love life, actually. Yeah, and then you don't always remember that. Yeah, and I think having kids is not for everyone, for absolutely for sure, but for me, and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a reason to live. I feel like dying, I'm gonna have a kid.

You might feel more like dying after having a kid, actually. They're pretty stressful, but it is a place to, I've changed a lot of people that I've known, that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude for life, for sure. I do mind if we, I'll return to the pain of the Believer, I might if we listened to it a little bit. No, no, no. Do you write the music first or the words first? The kids together. It's same time, which is very typical for me.

By the way, it opens like how intensity of openings. You ever think about like what the first few seconds sound like? Is that something that, like when you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine? No, it's kind of a, it's just a, I never think opening, I never think final, I think, soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So it could be the middle of the song for all I know, when I'm doing that, but my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time.

Like by the same time, I mean, as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I feel like, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, like it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll hear it. Like, it's like, here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments, you know what I mean? It's just utilizing one instrument.

So you've seen the landscape. It includes melody, it includes percussion, lyrics, a little bit, or lyrics. Or I would be words to begin, like a word here and there. And I'll be like, You know, I'm like, what's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape? And I always create with no theme in mind. I'm never, for better or for worse, just my process is I'm sitting down and I'm writing a journal entry. Simple as that.

It's like, when you sit down and write a journal entry, are you sitting down and you're like, Kev, I've had all these words here that I'm gonna put on the page and I'm gonna order it in this way. And my theme for my journal entry today is gonna be this, maybe some people do, but I don't, my journal entry is, I don't know what I'm gonna say. How was today? Well, man, today was this and feeling this and not only think about that, I'm really angry about that.

That hurt my feelings when this happened. You're like, you're formulating it as you go. And that's the joy of it. And for me, that's what music is. So I'll sit down, not thinking, have been wanting to write a song that has a hard beat. I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic. I've been wanting to write a song that's, it's like, how am I feeling right now? And is joyful, is the feeling joyful to you or is it struggle? It's not, you just made it sound like it's joyful. I think joyful.

Or at least fulfilling. Yeah, fulfilling is what I was kind of looking for. But there was a lot of artists talk about, it's really, like, it's about writers. It's cathartic, that's what it was. It feels like having a good moment with a therapist where you're like, okay, I'm expressing this thing that I just need to express. For whatever reason, I need to express this. The majority of the songs I write for the record are never heard. I write over 100 songs a year.

I release 20 songs every three years. So I don't know what's that percent, 20 out of 300. Come on, like, I... Less than 10%. Less than 10%. Less than 10%. Yeah. Eight, seven percent. Yeah. Anyway, so it's, and then like getting together with the band and like getting them selected down is really what the process have. So you're really writing a song per one to three days. Kind of maybe a song that you can't quite figure out the puzzle of that's going to last a little longer. Is it, where's this?

Every idea. Yeah. You finish every idea. I do. I finish every idea. It's not just like laying completely unfinished. I could open my computer for you right now, and I would show you hundreds and hundreds of songs that you would listen to and think, that sounds like a song. It's like there's rhythm, there's melody, there's multiple instruments, there's lyrics. Like, I... It's the same thing is for coding for me, which is music, which is, I can't walk away until I've completed it.

But it's finished. My... Well, finished is... Yeah, but it sounds like a song. I certainly do a lot more with it after with the band will pull it apart. But it's a song. It'll be like, you know, you'll listen to it and say, okay, that was a song. I get... You understand what it is, for sure. Do you think this is a painful question from a fan perspective? Do you think there's genius on your computer that you walked away from that you just did notice it?

Like, do you think there's truly great songs that you've written that you just did notice how great they are? I think greatness is something that I feel I'm... I don't feel like I've achieved greatness. Genuine, I'm not saying that to you in a way of like humility. It's like Michael Jordan type. Genuinely, I feel like I am on a journey right now to find who I am. And I'm 34 and it's like, I don't even... I haven't begun that journey. I feel like I'm just starting that.

But that being said, I certainly don't know the right answer to what songs are, you know, beloved or good to the masses. Like, imagine Dragons is such a massive entity. It's like, there have been a... I will say this, there are a couple times where I've fought really hard to decide on the single. Really hard. Or I always fight for what goes on the record always. I always put the record together and that's the record that I wanted to be and me and the guys come up with that.

And it's nobody else has influence, no manager, no label. The single, everybody wants to have a saying. Your label wants to have a saying it, your manager wants to have a saying it. And I have fought really hard over that. And I've been wrong before and I've been right before. But as far as songs that I haven't put out, I mean... Because you can imagine so many songs, you think of so many Beatles songs that are like some of their great while my guitar gently weeps.

I'm trying to imagine weird sounding, not that interesting possibly songs that turn... The majority of what we put them. Honestly, they may be... Our best stuff is that we don't put out, for instance, because our band is such a... It's such a complex question. I really don't know actually. I don't know, maybe one day I'll die and people will look and be like, I hated Imagine Dragons, but now it was an asshole. I really liked that, which they would put that out.

Or maybe they'll be like, oh, it's all sounds like shit. I don't really know. Well, that's... Sorry, it is a tragic thing. That's why I asked it, which is like... There could be some great, incredible things that will take you a long time to rediscover, to realize how great they are. And it's also the tragic aspect of being an artist is you don't know... Forget fame or all that kind of stuff.

You don't know what's going to really move people, because ultimately what you want is to connect with people and you don't know what that's going to be. It's hard. I mean, to me, it's tragic, just as a fan of yours to see. Maybe I wonder if there's like incredible stuff there. Just as it is tragic to see great artists throughout history who didn't get recognition until they died. It's like, because they basically held on, you know, Franz Kafka was extremely self-critical.

A lot of these folks had an idea of what's good and not, and they were wrong. Right. They had genius. They weren't entirely wrong, because they became sufficiently popular, but it's interesting. I tried genuinely to release the songs that move me the most. Got it. So you're not your own audience. Yeah, I try to put out the songs that make me feel the most. Like I feel that.

That's my only gauge, because it's so subjective of what is good, what's the, nobody knows the song, the masses are going to like, nobody knows that formula, nobody knows it. So for me, it's always what makes me feel something. One of the main lessons Rick Rubin taught me when we worked with him on this record was he would say, he was his main point that he would continually bring up, went like, because he's not the type person to be like, that's a bad song or that's good.

It's just not who Rick Rubin is. It's more like there's more nuance to it. He would say, I don't really believe you on that song. That's what he would say, he would say. And I knew that was like, that song's a no-go. He would say, and I would genuine, there was a time he said it and it was about a song and I really felt it and meant it when I said it. But he didn't believe it when he heard it.

And that was enough for I was like, man, well, the end of the day, I can believe it all I want, but if the listener doesn't feel the honesty in it, just like we were talking about earlier, I think the most important ingredient is, is this truth, perceived is truth to someone else. And if it's not, the bullshit indicator goes and you're like, I don't care, I don't throw it away, I don't care about it. Well, he used to say that he made you go through, like line by line, the lyrics. Every single.

That was excruciating for me. Why was that excruciating? Well, first of all, it's Rick Rubin. So you're in the room with Rick Rubin, who's done a lot of the greatest of all time. And so I had to first just put that aside and be like, okay, well, you've done a lot of my favorite records, but still you're human and not everything you say is gonna be right. And I'm a strongly opinionated person and so is Rick. And so when the two of us were together, it was, you know.

But the lyrics, which is interesting, so not every entire composition, but just like, let's look at the lyrics. Yeah, I mean here. Yeah, oh yeah, because he would look over every, there was like, and there was battles he won, battles that he didn't win. And maybe he was right. I don't know. I mean, there was, for instance, I'll give you an example. There was a song on the record called number one. Rick will probably laugh when he hears this.

Because this was a big one that we kept going back and forth on. But this will give you a good insight of what it was like. And there's a line in it that says, I don't know, the course is, I don't know what I meant to be. I don't need no one to believe when it's all been said and done. I'm still my number one. And he was like, nah, just makes me cringe when I hear that. He's like, I just like, do you have to be like, can it not be like, you're still my number one?

I was like, no, it's not about anybody else. Like, you know, it's about like self love. He's like, yeah, but like, do you need to like talk about self love like that? And I was like, well, I can't. I feel like I need to. It's like, well, but you know, there's something else we could say there. Like, we just kept, you know, we kept coming back to this song. Okay. I was like, and I changed it. I tried changing it. What did I change it to? It was like, it wasn't you're still my number one.

Because it just made no sense. It wasn't about some love thing or like someone else. I changed it to something else. And it just, it was the one thing that I was like, I'm really sorry, Rick. Like, I get it. And if it sounds cringy to you, it's definitely sound cringy to other people too. And that sucks. But I don't know how else to say this in a way that I want to put that song out anymore. But there were other songs for sure where Rick was like, that or this, that word feels a little tried.

You already said that once. Can you say it in a different way? It was really helpful. And then, yeah, it's really interesting because you're trying to say something so simply and yet not make it cringe. And that's really hard. That's, that's like a, that's a strange art form because you want to say some of the greatest lost songs. We, we looked at the without you song. I mean, that's the whole thing is cringy. If you just read on paper, like it's a, like it's a court report or something.

But yet it's not, especially one song maybe, but no, there's something about. Yeah, maybe song in a way you believe it when you believe it, but also written in a way that's single bull in the way you believe it. So it's like, it's right. And then it rolls off. It just comes out in a way that just feels like silky and no word catches your mind as cringy. Yes. This just, but then music. I think great speeches are like that too or just, you know, conveying, communicating ideas.

Simply, that's the, that's the art form is to not be cringy. So interesting. And then you, because like when you're raw and real, it might have first feel cringy. So the battle there and that, that's where you see people fail. Like just regular artists like, I don't know, open, at open mic, I got to open mics. So I just listen to musicians. Like when they write songs like they, they fail that test. They write simple stuff, but it's cringy. Why? I wonder what I was like, what is that?

I'm telling you, like, I tried to explain this to my brother the other day. Because it's the same thing with a live performance. If I'm not in my right head space and I walk on stage and I walk up and let's say I say something and I do this. Yeah. Because I'm like, this is the move, right? I'm like, this is the move. The crowd doesn't care. In fact, the crowd's like, that's cringing when you did this.

Yes. But if I wasn't thinking about doing this and I went up there and I said something and I really meant it in my body was like, I can't explain this to you. It's so silly to say out loud. But it's, people will resonate to it when it's real. And when it's acted, it doesn't, you could do it the exact, the motion could look the same. Your eyes look the same, but there's something about the energy that people know. They know if it's real or not.

Yeah. People like you said, incredible, bush of detectives. I'm 100%. I'll go on a stage and if I'm not in the right head space to be real, it won't be a good show. If I'm real, then it's a good show. It's as simple as that. Let's go through the song. Like I said, great opener. So you had this in your mind, this landscape? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. First things first, I'm going to say all the words inside my head. I'm fired up and I'm fired up. The beat was first on this.

What about the first and the second and the first things first, the first line I wrote was first things first. I don't know why it just was like, and then I was like, oh, that principle was, yeah. Great line. Don't second things second. Don't you tell me what you think that I could be? I'm the one at the sale. I'm the master of my see. I'm the master of my see. Such a dad had that in his office.

He had this saying that was something about the sailor and being the master of a sea that I always loved. There you go. Simple statement. Yeah. Zero cringe in it. It's so powerful. It's so simple. I'm the master of my see. This whole song is just trivial. But in terms of lyrically, but extremely powerful and original, unique sounding. Something about the words. Just even you don't have to actually sing them. You just read them. And then and then raw.

I was broken from a young age, talking to the master's writing my poems for the few that look at me took took to me, shaking me, feeling me singing from the heartache, from the pain, taking my message from the thing. I can't why am I reciting your words to you. But the percussionist throughout it. And that that was there in the beginning. The percussion is almost in the lyrics.

Yeah. And I'm a very percussive singer because I was a drummer first before I think same with Dave Grohl, probably a similar thing, which is I think in percussive sense a lot when I'm writing. And I also was before I could play an instrument I would beatbox. And I think Michael Jackson did this too, actually. I've heard in the studio that he was very similar. But a lot of what I do is percussive because my brain thinks and it percussively first. A little more. It's almost like a drum.

And then you lay words on that. Yeah. Yeah this. It's building. It's almost like drums. It's all building to the chorus. What about the word pain? When did that come to you? Um, pain. You made me, you made me a believer. Yeah. The idea of, I just wanted to, I really, one of the things that a lot of the songs that I like, I like divisiveness, for instance, not always, but there's times where I want someone to hear a song and I want them to either love it or hate it.

I really don't want them to be in the middle ground. A lot of the songs that like, a lot of my favorite songs are divisive songs. And so for instance, with pain, I want you to hear that and almost like, whoa, you know what I mean? It's something either somebody's going to hear it and they're like, man, I just don't want to hear that like that. Or it's like, oh, I felt that so deeply when he said that in that way because it sounded like this.

And when you think of the word pain, it's like, that's a, that's a, when I, at least for me when I hear that word, I, it carries a lot of weight. So I wanted to sing it with a lot of weight and to come into that chorus with like, like it's a striking moment. And I'm also a tenor singing as, sorry, I'm a baritone singing as a tenor.

So that's where that natural, like, gruffness comes from is, and I'm singing out of my range really up in my head voice and it carries a lot of weight with it because of the baritone. Can I ask you a specific sort of the pause before the pain? It's really interesting because like a double... What is it? How much work does that take to get that right? That's incredible.

The, because it's like a, so you're kind of seeing the beauty through that and then that, whatever that sound is, the, the bass being rolled off. Yeah. Yeah, I actually, when I first was approaching the chorus, it was actually seeing, took a minute, missing a heartache from the pain, taking my message from the veins, making my lesson from the veins, seeing the beauty through the, seeing the beauty through the pain you made me, oh, you, like it came in on one.

I'm not singing it right now, but it did not wait. And it felt like it didn't hit in the way that it was supposed to hit because the, you predict that, right? You're like, you're waiting to see the beauty through the pain you made me up. Right, it was like, yeah. The beauty through the pain you made me up, made me. So I wanted to feel a little more like striking like again, it's like that thing that makes you kind of do this a little bit. You're like, huh?

But once you hear it a few times, you're like, ah, ah, and you predict, you know what I mean? It's like, I'd rather someone hear our song the first time and be confused by it. So they play it the second time. And then they're like, oh, okay. You know what I mean? Like, I really don't want, you know, I'd rather turn some people off along the way. And then the people who come along for you are going to feel more committed, I think.

It's just an interesting like, it feels gutsy to insert silence, you know? Yeah, that's what makes it, you know, it's like the greatest speakers of all time are like, and I told you, right, you would know. And then it's like, you're like, oh, yeah. What is that? Yeah, that's so interesting to do that just at the right time. And then pain, right? Yeah, it's a brilliant song. Did you know it was a good song when you wrote it out of the thousands of songs you had?

You know, it's always the same thing for me, which is like, if I want to listen to the song and I want to listen to it a lot of times, then those are the songs we put out. And I only want to listen to the songs and make me feel something. Whether or not it's like our single that did the very worst of all our singles was the song that I wanted to listen to the least. But it made the most sense as a single, which was all the wrong reason to choose it, right?

It was this, it was a, I bet my life is the single of our second album. And that song was originally written, it was just a guitar and a vocal and it was very just quiet and laid back. And we were like, well, let's try to dial it up, let's try to produce it and we overproduced that song. We self-produced it as a band and we overproduced. And that song, I mean, it's, it did good, you know, in terms of a song, but for us, it did not do good compared to other songs.

And I really look back at that and learned a lesson from that. It's like, I don't want to listen to the song. That's a sign already. If you don't want to listen to your own song, it's probably not a good song. Yeah. You said your dad, also wearing today just said that your dad early on was a kind of the early Rick Rubin. Yeah. So when you were starting out, he was, he gave you feedback, he listened, what did you learn about music about life from your dad?

My dad is a really quiet farm, grew up on a farm, very humble. I think he starts every sentence by saying, this is just my two cents pretty much. You know what I mean? It's like, take it or leave it. Like you know what I mean? He's that kind of a sense. Like there's humility and everything and it's real for him. It's not like false humility. He really, I really feel like when he's saying things, he really is like, maybe this isn't any worth to you, son. And he means it, but here it is.

And it's always gold. And I'm like, wow, dad, that's incredible. So what in those early days of you like, so you were like 12 or something like that, like starting to write song? I was 12. I wasn't showing my music to anyone. I started writing my own S12 and I probably wrote for at least, let's say six months or something. And I had written probably, I don't know, like a lot of songs during that. What was the topic by the way? Love. It was anger. All sad. No, the first song I ever wrote went.

And it was like a bluesy thing. It was like, there was my voice to that. And it was like, oh, by himself, no other one around. And he stood all alone. When would he be found? Did he want company? Or was he fine on his own? Everyone needs a friend. So I was he all alone. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? But I was like a 12 year old with, I just felt like depressed for the first time. And I was, and I just was like, so- They can discover the blues as a 12 year old. Yeah, right.

It really was. It was like my sense of the blues at that time for sure, like bad version of the blues, but it was like 12 year old kid with a bunch of acne. And like I just like, I hated going to school. I felt like that I just had not found myself. I was like a great song, by the way. I wanted to keep looking at it. I forgot us. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know about that. But yeah, what was your dad, at which point did you begin to share it with your dad?

A lot of the songs that I wrote in the beginning were very much like Bobby McFarron like that, because we are, Mike was in a part of the house where I couldn't bring over the piano and only the instrument I played at the time was the piano. So I would do everything with my voice. But then I started teaching myself the guitar in those, in that beginning like six month period, just watching my brothers play in their garage bands in the basement.

And then I started to write songs a little more like Anya vibes, like stack my voice like 20, 30 times and like. Anya meets like Jare, which is who my dad would listen to a lot, John Michael Jare, who's incredible synth genius. But anyway, so I finally got my, like, gallup enough to show it to my dad one day after work. I got very little of my dad because there were nine kids and he worked from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.

Well, come on, very tired and here's nine kids that are like, Dad, you know, and you're the young one, you're not, you're just going to miss, I was in the middle kind of too. So it's even, you know, middle child thing. But I sat him down and I was like, Hey, Dad, I just want to like, kind of show you a song. And he was like, Oh, you know, he didn't know I was right and writing anything and I showed it to him and he listened and he took it off and he really looked at me.

It was like, that was really good. He was like, I really, I thought, and this, when you said this, it made me feel this. He was like, and that did it. I probably would have given up music. Like I look back. That was a very pivotal moment for me. I was like in a place where I was like, is this good, bad? I don't know. Maybe it's so embarrassing and terrible. And I was already writing lyrics.

There were a little like overly metaphorical to hide that I was dealing with faith crisis because I thought, okay, I'm going to show this to dad. I don't want my dad to know I'm like questioning the truthfulness of Joseph Smith. I'm not going to be like, it's Joseph Smith, a real prophet, his Mormonism, true, I don't really know. Like, you know, I was like writing way overly metaphorical. But because my dad really validated it and he was a no bullshit person.

So I knew when my dad said that, I was like, you know what, at least my dad really actually thinks this is cool. And I really trusted my dad's taste and thought everything he listened to was cool. So I was like, wow, I'm going to keep doing this and I just showed it to my dad for years and years. And still to this day, I send every song to my dad. So he underneath it with a feedback is always like, oh, I like this idea. I like this.

It's just a positive, like a not always positive, no, but like underneath it, do you sense the positivity? Because I think that's always never, never mean, never malicious. You know, there's like, there's two types of criticism. There's like criticism that's just like you're looking to be hurtful to someone. And then there's criticism that's like really important for art. It's the type of criticism that's like, you see the value in what's happening.

If it's honest, then you, you maybe communicate with that person like, I see what you're trying to do with that. You know, it's not even like you have to say that or whatever, like butter it up, but it's like, my dad would just give me the this honest criticism that would be like, you know, it certainly wasn't always good, but I knew it was always well intentioned. I guess that's how I would say. So you mentioned, maybe you really listen to it. I'm a big fan of cast evens.

You made me really listen to father and son. I probably all sons have issues to work through with their fathers. And you said that you connect with this song in particular. I think so your father now, what is it about the song that connects with you for people? Let me play it. Let me play a little bit. People should educate themselves on cast evens. Oh my gosh. Right on the piece train. The best. The best piece. Right on the piece train. You think this is a hopeful, a sad song? I hear it.

I hear it is a loving father saying just what his son is to hear. It's like that calm wisdom. Yeah, it's time. It wise. And just the way he says that, that should be a corny line, but it's not corny at all. It's like, yeah. It could be a mold, but I'm happy. Yeah, I mean, the simplicity there. But it's such a contrast with what's his name? Harry Chapin with the cast and the cradle, which is like the sadness of this feels like there's a wise calm connection between father and son, right?

With cast and the cradle, I don't know if you remember that song. He learned to walk while I was away and he was talking before I knew it. And as he grew, he'd say, I'm going to be like you dad. You know, I'm going to be like you. And the idea of that song is that he does become like his dad, which is funny, not something you've said. But in a different way, you become too busy to make that connection. His dad was too busy to make it connection with his son.

In a not a dramatic way, in a very kind of calm, not too long way. You don't have time. You're busy at work. You're providing for the family and so on. There's connection, but you don't really get the form that depth of connection. And then the father, when the son shows up from college and all that kind of stuff, he doesn't spend any time with the father. And just the calm sadness of that, that we live. We can live parallel lives and never quite connect.

And there is a little bit of that in father and son with cast evens too. Like when the son is saying, from the moment that I could talk, I was ordered to listen. I always remember listening to that line, feeling like that really moved me. But the beauty of that song is it shows it's kind of like the theme of what I feel like we've talked about since the second you got here, which is something I really like.

I don't know why it's such an important theme in my life right now, but the duality of just understanding that you don't understand someone else's situation. And there's truth to both sides. Like there's truth to what the father is saying to the son. He's like saying these things and he's like, I'm looking out for you. I love you. Take your time with these things. If you want to get married, you can, like these things will bring up. And then the son saying, listen, I want to pay my own path.

I want to do this. Like why are you telling me this? Like, the son's not wrong. Because there's a lot of parents who tell their kids what to do and they're wrong. And they don't let the kid form the path that they need to. But should you not be a parent? Like, you know, there's just two sides. There's a thing. It is annoying when you're older. You get to see people do all the same things. You could say, well, this is a phase. You'll see that this actually will end up in this way.

You can like predict how the life on rolls. And it's very annoying for young people to hear, especially because it's probably going to be true. It's like, no, it's not going to be like this. No, it'll be different, but then you become that person. But that doesn't mean they also let them live that life, right? Let them make the mistakes, but they're not mistakes. Actually, they're like beautiful deviations from the path that they end up on. And those make the path.

Do you have a device for young folks today? You've had an incredible dark journey and a successful one, a loving one. And one of the most successful artists in the world. Is there advice you can give to young people today that would like to find themselves through that way, especially if they're struggling? I thought you said device at first, and I was like, honestly, I feel like that device is not helping. Maybe I should get away, throw away their devices, advice.

I would just say like what I emphasize to my kids is I really, really want my kids to just learn to love themself. It's easier said than done. It's really easy to pick on yourself in life. It's really easy to look in the mirror and wish you looked different. Wish you were more successful like that person over there, wish a lot of things. People that I see that really succeed at life really succeed truly.

That doesn't mean they're making money necessarily or they're succeeding and they're talking to a lot of people. Their success to me is happy. They have real self love. When you meet someone, you meet Rick, for instance. You meet Rick Rumin. Rick has a calmness about him and it's funny because everybody sees him as this Zen master.

Rick is just a really loving person who also loves himself and has self confidence because you just see it and it resonates and that's why he draws people and that's why he's so great in the studio because you know his intentions always. As an artist when a producer comes in, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are your intentions? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to get a hit out of me for the label? Are you trying to make me something?

Are you trying to make me this so you can prove this about yourself? There's a lot in that dynamic and the reason that Rick is so good is because you know his intentions and his intentions come because Rick has that self love. For me, find the things about yourself because they're there that you love and really focus in on them and it's not selfish.

I feel like I was brought up in a family too where it was like never looking word like be selfless, like serve, serve, serve, which by the way is a true principle of life. I think you love yourself more when you serve more. I think that's really evident in life but also spend time doing the things that make you happy. Take time every day to go on that walk that you need to go on, listen to that book tape that you need to listen to. For me, that's something I need.

I know if I do that, I'm going to be a better dad because I gave myself some love back in life. Just forgive yourself, I think. Forgive yourself because everybody messes up. Everybody hurts others. Everybody says unkind words at times. Everybody fails all the time. If you think that you're going to not, you're wrong and you're eventually going to and you're either going to punish yourself for it every day and be a lesser version of what you could be or you're going to forgive yourself for it.

If you learned that that's not something you want, then try not to do it again. If you do it again and you're probably going to do it again, whatever that is, you're going to gossip about that person and you're going to feel bad because then you gossip about someone. Is this something you could say in terms of self love? Is there a role for being critical? That those demons of self criticism, do you need a little bit of that? Tom Weitz talks about my town with a little drop of poison.

Is that silly or a meant to poison? No, I mean, it's my biggest thing in life that has been like the thing that I've worked on the hardest for the last few years is to not be overly critical and to let go of control. I think it's really easy to kill an artist. It's really easy to kill an artist. If my dad would have sat down with me that day and even if he would have just sat down and done like, good job, son. It's not silly, right?

I didn't, not everybody has a dad who's going to ever do something or put in the tongue or whatever. But that might have altered everything for me. My dad taking the extra time to just give me a thoughtful response, a post to kids know, kids know when you're just trying to get out of the room or wherever. I knew he wasn't and that did a lot. But is that a huge, is not what makes the artist, is the fragility of it that like, would you have any other way? No, no, I agree with you.

I think that that's what, that's the beauty of art. But I think also on the same token, it's like, I went to music cares recently, which is a charity for musicians that are down on their luck that maybe were a successful one-point or never been successful and they can't even pay the bills and this charity contributes money to these artists, aspiring artists or artists who've had drug issues and like, there's a lot that they do.

And there was a statistic that they told it was staggering to me, which is, I think it is 75% of artists, musicians say they struggle with severe depression. That's really high. I don't know what the national average is, but I would guess that that's higher than national average per occupation. So I just think there's a tricky balance in art. So yeah, of course, like, it's a necessary thing, the fragility of it all.

But um, yeah, I wonder, because I'm extremely self-critical and I sometimes ask myself the question, I've romanticized it or rather, I've learned to be productive to channel the interproductivity. But I wonder if there's better ways to do that.

And I also wonder if it's eventually the thing that destroys me, like if long term, if it's a healthy thing, it might be useful when you're in sort of actively fighting the battles of the day, the, for me, it's engineering challenges and all that kind of stuff. But then when you're sitting back and enjoying life with family and so on, is that going to be like, do you need to find that self-love? Like ability to kind of silence the voice of criticism in your head. You know what?

I really, there's a good, you're making a good point. And I think that the middle ground is you need, you need self-doubt to push you to be better. I do believe that like, for instance, if I, if I believed, I've hit my, like when you're like, is there a song on there that you think is genius? If I think I've written a genius song ever, I think I'd probably stop. I think I'd be like, you know what? Did it? I wrote, what's that perfect song? I'm like, what happened? Imagine.

Imagine, yeah. Okay. If I'd written Imagine, I'd probably be like, that's it. Did it. All right. Perfect song has been written. That's the best thing I'll ever do. Yeah. I think that there is like self-criticism and criticism outside, I think is necessary. 100% for sure. It pushes you. It pushes you. It pushes you.

It's just finding the right middle ground for that young aspiring artist to also not feel squashed and to be heard and to love just to not even to feel squashed, just to love themself so that when they're in the room playing the song, they'll believe it because they believe themselves. They love themself enough that they believe it and then they'll do a great and then the song will come out great and they'll do a great performance.

I have to ask, it's one of the very interesting aspects of your life of the way you put love out there in the world. What is it the core of your support for the LGBT community? A couple of things. So one growing up from a young age in the artist community, a lot of my closest friends were LGBTQ starting in middle school. I think a lot of the best artists in the world are LGBTQ and that's just not a secret. It's just this, like the artist community is filled with lots of LGBTQ people.

I think being raised in that community in that my friends struggled with their faith and their sexuality really opened up my eyes to how incredibly hard that path is. For instance, okay, when I was in high school, there was someone who went in front of who was LGBTQ and was Mormon and felt like there was not a place for them in the church. They felt like the path.

When you're being told that it's evil and you believe it because you believe in your faith and you feel like it's unchangeable, you're putting a kid in a situation where there's really no good resolution. It's either be alone for the rest of your life or marry outside your sexual preference, which I don't want to marry a man. Like if I was forcing a man, I'm like, I don't want to marry you to a man because I'm heterosexual. So you're forcing a kid into a situation where it's very dangerous.

I'm so short, this kid went in front of the Las Vegas Mormon temple and shot himself. Call himself. That impacted our community. And not just that, but it was like severe bullying to LGBTQ kids. In the 90s, it was especially different. Like, there's still bullying, don't be wrong, but man, like bullying in school, I don't really know actually what it's like in schools now.

Maybe the bullying is just as bad as it was in the 90s, but there was like, I would hear all the time, like the F slur being slung out at people who were LGBTQ all the time. And I wasn't even LGBTQ. So it's just seeing that, I think that every any social justice issue takes all sides. It takes all pieces of the puzzle. If only the pieces of the puzzle contributed are from the side that is affected. I don't believe that we'll ever have a resolution.

We're doing a shit job and we need to do better. And that's just the reality of it. So that's part of the reason I also have family who's LGBTQ. And it's just something that's been part of my path. And I feel like I'm a big believer in take the path that is presented to you. And this was just something that came up in my life a lot. When I met my wife, she was living with her two best friends who were LGBTQ who really didn't want her to marry me because I was Mormon.

And at the time it was Prop 8, which was Mormons were fighting against, LGBT, gay marriage. And so that then they didn't come to our wedding and that really broke my wife's heart. So it was just like because Mormonism represented everything that was against their community. So you felt you had to say something? Yeah, I felt like by not saying anything, I was saying everything. I felt like by not speaking up and being like, hey, Dan Reynolds is Mormon singer.

Here's this new band, Magic Dragons and their Mormons. It was like, okay, well, what do Mormons represent? They represent Prop 8. What does Prop 8 represent? Bigotry towards the LGBTQ community. So what do I do? Okay, I can speak in every interview and be like, well, that's not me. I don't believe that too. Or I could just be more active about it.

And especially when it's affecting my family and friends throughout my entire life, it was like, all right, this seems like a path that you need to go down. So long story short, it's a path that just presented itself through things in my life. So just on that topic, the religion and God give a lot of meaning to a lot of people. It gives tradition that brings people together across the generations, but it also can hurt people. What do you make about that tension?

So it's source of meaning, but also source of pain for people. The reality is, again, this is just my reality. I feel like I'm doing my dad's thing every time I'm talking to him. I'm like, I don't really know what to say. You have become your father. The reality and it's my reality and it is the reality for sure. I think that religion has brought a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people. Absolutely it has. I don't think anybody can dispute that on either side.

Whether it's war, whether it's slaughtering of entire peoples, there's been a lot of pain and suffering that has come from religion. So my little thing that has been hard for me is a faith crisis. I had religion and then I lost it and then I had nothing. So for me, I was like, well, religion did that to me. But then at one point, it's kind of like how much of my life am I just going to complain about being raised Mormon or being depressed? As I get older, I'm like, okay, so what?

It's really hurt me. But were there any good things that came out of Mormonism? Well, yeah, there's a lot of good things that have come to my family through Mormonism. Closeness where really, really close Mormon culture is that you live together forever. The teaching is that your families are forever. We die and then we go to heaven together and we're together forever. My family really believes that principle, all of them do.

And that instills a certain way of living that's kind of beautiful, even if it's not eventy. There's something kind of beautiful about believing that we're forming these bonds together as a family and that we're going to be together forever. It brings a lot of comfort to a kid too. When I was little, I was like, wow, it's going to be okay if I die because I get to see my mom again. I mean, I really believe that.

Is the right answer that you tell that kid, actually, when you die, you're not going to see your mom again. Maybe it might be. I don't know. And everybody's going to, anybody who has a kid is going to face that moment. I've already faced it where you sit down and my kid was like, hey, dad, when you die, am I going to see you again?

I was actually a really hard moment for me because I was suddenly faced with, okay, do I give the answer that I thought was bullshit or do I give the answer of what I think it is or do I give the real answer, which is, I don't know. And that's what I chose, which is a father that's not always the easiest answer because your kid, it's a wonderful thing that you feel like you can give your kid the comfort of like, hey, your parents are going to take care of everything. We know everything.

We've been around. My kids always like, are you the strongest? I'm like, yeah, I am the strongest. I'm stronger than everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're faced with that moment, it's like, it's kind of sucks to tell your kid, like, you know what? I don't know if you're going to see me after I die. But I hope. That's why I said I was like, I don't know, but I hope. I really hope because that would be awesome if we can hang out forever.

And if there's any way for it to happen, I'll make it happen. You know what I mean? That's kind of what my answer was. So long story short, sorry, I know that I'm being lengthy on this. Is there like, what is my thought on religion? It just is. It's going to, it's been here forever. It's coping. It may be it's, I can't say whether it's true or false. How the hell am I supposed to know? I mean, like, I've lived 34 years on this planet. A lot of people have been around a lot longer than me.

And they really believe very deeply. And a lot of them are smarter than me. You know what I mean? Like, I look at my older brothers, for instance, who are very practicing Mormons. These guys are hyper-intelligent. My younger sister, hyper-intelligent. All of them start smarter than me. They all believe it still. So what am I supposed to say? Well, you're all stupid. You know what I mean? Like, you're all wrong. I don't know.

Like, maybe it's the South Park episode where everybody dies and then they're like, well, the right answer was Mormonism. I've never been to that. Yeah. I mean, like, Mormon, Mormons love that moment in South Park. They're like, hey, that day may come. That day may come. Yeah, so maybe I don't know the honest answer for everybody around the table. But the biggest question for which I don't know is the right answer is, what's the meaning of this whole thing? What's the meaning of life?

No. You're not allowed to say, I don't know. You can be just like your dad and say, let me just give my two cents. They take it for you. Whatever it's worth, they can't leave it. It's probably worth nothing. Piddle on the ground. Um, do you know, I mean, what, why are we here? It's just, busily creating all these kinds of things, worrying about things, having kids. I, my purpose at least right now is to wake up and try to bring light love to the world, light love to myself and have integrity.

That's my purpose. The ultimate purpose of life, that I guess that's my ultimate purpose of life. I, I, I don't know what happens when I die. I was give me some sense that there's more to be known. I'm sure there are other things in life that would give me that than I'm, and I'm, I'm looking for it.

I'm a seeker. Like, I'm, I'm always looking for the next something to give me hope in something more, even if so I could just not bullshit my kids when they ask me that question and be like, you know what? I really don't know. I, I, I want to not know more. If that makes sense. I don't want to like, I want to see things that make me confused, that make me question what I already knew.

Like I am like, when I meet an atheist who comes up to me and they're like, atheism, atheism, atheism, it's just as laughable to me as when I meet the Mormon who comes up and they're like, Mormonism, Mormonism, Mormonism.

I'm like, how do, how do anyone, how do you guys know that like, like, you know, so you feel like you're doing some, through all your travels, through all the people you meet, you feel like you're still keeping your eyes open and your heart open to sort of discover, discover something new, like the eye-wask experience that there might be, there might be deeper truths out there. Yeah. And, and I want to find them and I want to surround myself with people who are just looking for it.

I'm not, I'm not interested in people who are just looking to point fingers at each, like I, life is so short, I'm looking for, it's one of the reasons that I want to meet with you is I was like, wow, Lex really seems like he's on a journey. He's on a journey to find truth and that humility for me is same thing with Rick, it drew me to Rick. It was like, I really, I see that and I identify with it and that's what I'm looking for.

There's the final song on our record, our new record that's coming out. The chorus goes, and this is like, this is my best answer to what you're asking. The chorus goes, take it easy on me, I need some lullaby. They tell me heaven's just a lie. Well I'm not surprised. Tell me that you know, know you don't, yeah, you're just like me. Can we just all hope for the best? Take it easy. So that's it for me. It's like, I'm going to play some like from like, I don't know.

Tell me, you know, I'm not going to believe you. Maybe you do. I'm not going to believe it, but like, just be easier on each other and like try to find truth wherever it may lie. But above all know that we don't know jack shit. I think that's a mic drop moment. Dan, thank you so much. You're an incredible human. I love that you share with the world, the darkness of your mind, of your life experience and the beautiful light you've shown to the world.

So it's a huge honor and thank you for spending your valuable time. Good luck on the tour. Thanks man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Reynolds. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Aldous Huxley. After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.