How To Be Well In An Unwell World, with Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

To get started. Tell us, what is your definition, or the scientific definition, shall I say, of resiliency?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I love this question. So resiliency in my work, and what we talk about is this idea about, how do we essentially take all the broken parts and put it together in this mosaic of how we get to find a comeback, how we are able to bounce back, how we're able to kind of reimagine, redefine, rebuild once, what was like something that we thought was going to go a particular way, for example, and then all of a sudden there's this detour. And what do we do with those pieces?

And how do we rebuild a big, bright teacher? So to me, it's incorporate so much on that behavioral perspective, but also that psychological perspective, and really how we kind of work

with our variables so we can build big, bright futures. In the research that we've done, what we were able to identify is that people who were resilient, that they seem to be able to kind of lean into a particular set of tools approaches, or what we've called the Five Pillars. So how a person like develops and learns those pillars is one thing, but I think for us to first understand, like, what those are, and then we can imagine all the different ways people can go about it. So the

first one was belonging. It's that you need a home team. You have to have people that you're fighting for. You have to have people that matter to you and also you matter to them. When people have some person that's looking out for them in their corner, we know it allows them to tap into this whole other level of tools and resources and energy to be able to show up even in the most difficult seasons in time. So having that

one caring, consistent kind of person in our world matters. The second we talk about is perspective, this ability to, like, see the big picture, but also, like all the little things that contribute to that big picture and we also tie into that area as well, this notion of like, this alignment between

our head and our heart, right for sure. Like, resiliency requires problem solving, critical thinking, but it also requires, like being able to feel our way through the world, to be able to like work in those situations and process our emotions. So we see that perspective piece was really important. The third one, which again, was a bit of a sticking point for so many people, was the idea of acceptance of

working within our controllables. And I think sometimes people get stuck because they think acceptance means approval, that we have to, like, you know, approve of what's happening. We don't have to approve it. We need to be able to work with it and to have, like, real, raw conversations about what our realities are. The fourth variable, which I personally think the world needs such a big

dose of right now is the perspective of hope. We know that part of human resiliency, there's this through line of

hope that we have to trust that better days are ahead. And this isn't what I think right now is getting really popular around this kind of toxic positivity where, you know, we just need to kind of think about rainbows and, you know, manifestation, or perhaps, like you know, if affirmations and ponies, this is just a genuine ability, that even in the dark seasons, we there's like this part of us that knows that we are going to

find our way through it, that we're well resourced. And again, things might be hard right now, and we trust we'll figure it

out. And the fifth variable, that's this wee bit of a wild card in such an extreme way, was we learned that, like, resilient people use humor, and it wasn't like humor, and then, like, you know, it wasn't like they were deflecting things or not taking things seriously, that they they understood the importance of a pause, that understanding, you know, being able to like, like, make light of what you can make light of, even In difficult

scenarios, that they have this amazing capacity to be able to, like still, find moments of relief, and we saw that through laughter. So for example, when you laugh, your body releases a natural tranquilizer. Your pain receptors are blocked, so people were able to use that as just a moment of reprieve. So that way, they were able to respond versus react to what was ever in front of them. It sounds like people who stay resilient have a good sense of perspective. They're realistic, but also

still very optimistic, not cynical. Is that correct? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, this idea that hope triumphs experience. And as a behaviorist, I'm the first one that's going to tell you your past you know past behavior is the best predictor of your future behavior, how you experience the world is so indicative of what you've gone through. Yet, even when we've had a difficult outcome or something, hasn't turned out our way, hope triumphs that

experience. It's being able to say, You know what I know this is why this went off the rails, or why perhaps this got, you know, this didn't work out, and I'm. To try again. It's that ability to like, not let that negative experience or that rejection or that hurt, like, preclude you from having a big future, right? So it's this ability that it like, has this awesome capacity to say, like, try again. You know, life experience might tell us don't do that. It could hurt or it

might not be your best choice. Well, yeah, but we find a way to persist. For a lot of people, even if someone has a really hard experience, if it has a positive outcome, that's all that stands out in their mind. Do you find that's the case?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, oh for sure. It does absolutely like how, again, how we like process, how we kind of navigate what we've gone through, but that requires this degree of like self awareness, that ability to pause enough after a mistake or a setback, or some type of, you know, event that's requiring resiliency to actually, like, take stock, right, do a little bit of that act after action report, almost of like, okay, like, what you know, kind of what went off the

rails, or what was difficult, or, you know, what can I learn from this? And there's this kind of beautiful, kind of philosophy that speaks of, if we kind of wiped away every mistake we ever made in our past, we would lose who we are today. And so that notion of the importance of it, and as I say, like, I have a mom of three teenagers, and one of my go tos with my teenagers is, don't waste a mistake, right? Like, don't, don't, you know, add it with blame and shame. Like, who cares? Like, that

won't serve you at all. Don't waste this mistake. How are we going to take the lessons learned there and we're going to be able to move forward? But on that note, one of the things that I sometimes get concerned about is when people, for example, process things in such a way where they'll say, like, oh, everything happens for a reason. You know, you have to, like, you know, go through that and, you know, to a point. Yes, things work for a reason, but some things also just suck.

Like, some things are just horrible. And I think sometimes when people try to be like, they try to rush recoveries, for example, in the name of resiliency, right? They're like, oh, I want to be a resilient person, so I'm not going to process it. I'm just going to like, you know, you know, ignore it, override and I'm just going to jump to the next thing, because I want to be resilient. That's actually not really being of service to yourself on the best kind of deepest, wisest

way. You're just going to set yourself up that you're going to have to do that work later. You mentioned the importance of pausing and taking stock after an experience before moving ahead. Are there a few key things that we want to keep in mind, as we're looking back and reflecting? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I really love this question. So there's a couple different kind of ideas that jumped top of mind

for me on this one. First of all, I actually love this practice of having what I love to call like my like, my failing journal, I know love people, love to, you know, journal about just kind of getting your all their thoughts and feelings out of their head, which is a great practice. I love a fail journal where when something doesn't work out, when I've dropped the ball or something outside of my control has happened, I'll just

take a couple minutes and jot it down, but this is the key. I leave a lot of space underneath that entry, because I'm going to come back in three months. I might come back in six months, and I'm definitely going to come back at the end of the year, because I want to see how that failure, that setback, that lesson, that mistake, I want to see how it actually impacted my

future. And sometimes when I go back, I realize, like, wow, like, I'm glad that that thing happened, because that then started this like domino effect, or this cascading of these other things that had that not happened, I wouldn't have gotten there. So having a failed journal and leaving space for it. It takes the kind of the shame and the power away of that feeling that, you know, oh, we don't want to document the bad stuff because we don't want to bring more of that into our

lives, which is absolutely the opposite. It's like, when we actually start to see this, like tapestry of how all this is working together. It's pretty remarkable. So that's a one. The other one is, is just actually having a, you know, another kind of practice I love to use. It's a reoccurring appointment with myself. Or once a month, I just block off an hour, and I rarely take the full hour, but just do again, just a little bit of a check in. Like, how did last month go? What were some of the

lessons learned? Or, you know, if there's something that I noticed I'm stuck on right? It might be a feeling. It might be an experience. I might notice, especially our stressors. We like to revisit those at like, 1am in the morning, so I take note of where I'm stuck. And what I do is just kind of that, once a month meeting with myself for just an hour and just kind of do that little check and notice, is there anywhere I'm stuck, is there anything that I need to maybe haven't processed

yet? And just again, just having that little bit of accountability check. And what's so interesting, somebody recently said to me, they're like, you know, oh, I don't have an hour to check in with myself once a month. And it's like, you're going to be forced to take time down the road. I actually have gotten the point where, like, I look forward to

it, right? Like, I look forward to just kind of slowing things down, taking stock, taking inventory, and again, not using it as, like, setting goals, per se, but just like, a really good kind of awareness. Pause. Just be like, okay, am I okay? And if, again, on that note, if I notice something that am stuck on that, I have to do some work on that. I'm going to set some intention to do some work on that. I'm going to revisit that. And the other question I love to ask in that place is, like,

like, who, who's telling like, the kind of idea. Idea I have about this. It's like, where am I getting that information from? Like, is it being driven by my ego? Is it being driven by is it outside appearances? You know, is it being driven by somebody

who is definitely not paying my mortgage? I'm really careful about kind of doing a wee bit of an autopsy of some of those big emotions to see who or where am I getting some of the information, because that stuff left unchecked festers in our psychology. Our show takes a very long term view of most topics, because it's focused on creating and leaving behind a legacy. So first of all, what does the word legacy mean to you?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I love that question. What's so interesting for me, where I kind of really resonate with the idea of legacy. It's not like it's not remembering me, it's remembering the work or remembering how the work was done. So legacy, to me, is something that lives beyond the

person, and it's around impact. And to me, one of the greatest blessings that I can hope to achieve in the work that I do again, around human resiliency and well being, is is not that it was, this is what she said, or this is what she talked about, is that ripple effect, for example, of hoping a strategy where people develop this philosophy that you know better days are ahead, and they don't need to know who necessarily said it, or how it came to be, it just becomes part

of the collective. So I think it's taking ourselves out of it, but we're letting the goodness stay long after our time here. So talk about being resilient in the short term, maybe through a specific period of hardship, versus being resilient long term, over years or decades. How do those different, and are there different tools or steps to each? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, again, another you're asking

such cool questions. So I think, on the short term is when we lean in a lot more to some of the like the behavioral

practices. So one of the reasons, for example, and you know, my first book that I put out was all about human performance and resiliency, and, you know, we talked about these pillars and but one of the things that, you know, the reason why the second book was the second book was one of the variables that we were able to come upon, is that the more a person looked after their whole well being like throughout their lives, outside or inside of a difficult season or a difficult

situation, that actually offered them this really interesting hedge of protection from some of the negative things that would happen with somebody when they're experiencing practices of resiliency. So essentially, the more we look after ourselves when things are good and calm and things are manageable, the better we are positioned when things go off course. So that's why the second book that came out was about human well being, and what does it take to actually be well, especially

when the world is so unwell. So what I the reason I'm sharing that is because when we think on the short term, it's what we do each and every day, that's going to set us up for our capacity to be resilient. So even, like what we said when we talked about that person who like, said, Hey, I don't have one hour a month to check in with myself if anything happens to them, right? They have no spaciousness in their life because they're already probably burned out, right? They're probably already

overextended. Their resources are probably quite drained. So then that way when that bad thing happens, it's going to knock them out, versus someone who keeps that little bit of spaciousness, that little bit of awareness, that just that little bit of ease. So then that way they're able to bend and adapt when things go awry, and you need to have just a little bit of ebb and flow. We can't always operate kind of in the red or at 100% because when that bad thing happens, it's going to knock us

out. So the short term stuff is, like the everyday stuff now, in terms of, like the big picture, the kind of, you know, the looking at that kind of 1000 view of, kind of out of it, one of the things that we know about that is it becomes this, you know, this tapestry, or this narrative of how we show up in

the world. And one of, to me, one of the greatest markers of resiliency that I don't think a lot of people talk about, is when people have gone through bad things or horrible things, like no good, rotten things, and they've processed it and done the work, and they can still be kind, that they can still be like, have faith and have trust, and they still lean into like humanity, people who have gone through just the worst of the worst things, yet somehow still believe in the good in the

world. To me, that is like the pinnacle of resiliency, because people can get through stuff 100% but if you can get through stuff and still have a soft heart and still have a generous

heart, you're you are winning on every level of life. You know, I do get concerned, though, again, as I said before, where people are rushing in the name of resiliency, or again, shutting themselves down or blocking things, and it's like no. The whole idea is that we process it in such a way, and we show up in how we're living our lives in such a way that we're not defined by our past, that the past happened absolutely but that doesn't preclude that big future where we trust that all

will be well and that, you know, better days are ahead and and that living, hope filled is a really beautiful way, especially as we age. You know the fact that if we can stay soft as we're aging, and we can still have faith in humanity like again, that's that's, to me, what will. Really make the difference in how somebody approaches their recoveries or their comebacks. How does resiliency play into someone's

trying to achieve their legacy goals? For that matter, what are some of the most effective and proven ways towards achieving any goal, including lifelong goals? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Again it's one of the things that's so interesting, is that, I think so often when we think about goals is this, this notion that it's like a final destination, right?

Like this is what we're trying to get to, but the reality it's like the things that we do each and every day with consistency and with intention that's going to give us the best return on our investments. So that notion that, like, it's not always meant to be like, this positive, smooth upswing, that there's going to be setbacks. That's part of learning. Like, learning

is messy. It's even just this past weekend, I had a conversation with another group of parents, and, you know, they're, you know, commiserating about the fact that they're, you know, teenager was in a mood, and I just paused the conversation because I think, for example, teenagers get such a brutal reputation in our society where it's like, gosh, they're, they're not adults, and they're not kids. And anyway, and I said to the person, I'm like, do you expect your

teenager to be in a good mood every single day? Do you expect them to be like, you know, chasing those goals and locked in and hungry for their features every single day? And the person was like, well, sort of, I'm like, Are you in a good mood every single day? Like, as a grown person, like, are you every single day locked in moving that needle forward, you know, always in this positive, you know, Outlook and, you know, there was just this little bit of this pause where it's like,

yeah, well, we are. It's not that human condition isn't meant to be in this smooth, static state of always improving, always going the right direction, so making space for

the realness of each and every day. And if we kind of embrace that little bit of that messiness and the ebbs and flows that is our nature, we will have a better experience working towards that trajectory of legacy as we age, as we go, you know, move forward when we realize it's not meant to be smooth, and there's going to be, you know, this pause right where you do the work and you realize, okay, so this is one experience.

And you know what mountain ranges tend to be? Have lots of summits, and recognizing that there is an opportunity to be able to Okay, now let's look at the next summit and, and sometimes our legacy isn't just one thing. It's like this mountain range. It's this foothills, it's these valleys and, and that, in itself, is a testament to just how amazing the lived experience can be. Well, we give ourselves permission that we're not perfect and we don't need to be to have a really great life.

Prioritization is a big part of setting and achieving goals, both big and small. What are the best ways to prioritize what matters most to you in your journey? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, so one of the things I can, I can share with you and on a couple different notes around like that, prioritization. I think sometimes people get a little bit confused about time management and priority management, about like, how do we fit time into these things?

And when things are a priority, we make the time we we can, like, create these non negotiables around that time. So if we have kind of too many things happening at play, time becomes a factor. But when we have radical clarity of what matters most, and we make it matter most, things become a lot more kind of straight, streamlined for us. So I think again, just kind of wrestling with that notion of time

management versus the priority. So often I'd say people say to me, like, this is my priority, but I don't have enough time, right? And time has such an illusion, and you know, that notion of not having enough time, it ties into that scarcity mindset. And I hear people all the time wake up and say, you know, Rob and I didn't get enough sleep last night, or I don't have a I don't have the right team that's going to help

me make this project move forward. And they're always kind of on their back foot, versus that sufficiency mindset, that trust, that I'm well resourced, that I can figure this stuff out, is just one right decision after another. So again, priority and time management is one of those stumbling blocks

that I think offers some help. And the other one that we often talk about is, again, there's so many noise there's so much noise and negativity and distractions, where all of a sudden we might not even notice, because we're on autopilot, that we're making things a priority that are not a priority. So again, it's that noise if we're on autopilot, if we're not careful, we feel like we just ought to do or we should do, when the reality is it's

like the stuff that matters most. It's like right in front of us, if we give it the right attention. Your debut book covering many of these topics is called Calm within the Storm, a pathway to everyday resiliency. I love it. That's a great title. Tell us a bit about the book, and also your your second book Stress Wisely. That's a good name, which is out now.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: So book number one really dives into human resiliency, like, how do people, like, build resilient practices that are going to let them live a good life, like, how they can bounce back, build those comebacks when they're going through something challenging. The second book, stress wisely. One of the things that was so cool that we learned about in our research is usually there's this heavy emphasis on physical well being, right, sleep, nutrition, exercise.

Absence of disease, that's what everyone was talking about. Then I stumbled on research that talks about, for example, like loneliness will kill you faster than a bad diet. Yet we are talking about social connection, and we're not talking about, like, building communities the same way what we are hype cycled by nutrition and all of that kind of stuff, even though we

know this is more detrimental to us as a group of people. So what stress wisely, really started to do is, like, unpack a lot of this, like, misinformation that's out there about well being, and really took a holistic approach that says, You know what? Sometimes the best thing that you could do for your well being today is actually not run to the gym and, like, try to hate yourself healthy. The best thing you could actually do is, like, clean out your car, like, literally, just tidy up your

environment, experience an immediate win. Be able to bask in just a little bit of organization and accomplishment. Because going to the gym, yes, it's important, and it has its place. But if you're so tired, burned out and depleted, the last thing you need to do is punch your body with all that extra cortisol, give yourself some gentle wins being able to

just have that tidy space. And then guess what? The next day, when you're feeling a little bit better, you take that clean car, you drive to the gym, and you're starting to always feel like you're having this positive momentum. So stress wisely unpacks the eight realms of wellness. It's full of these really practical ways of like, how to show up today for the best return on your investment for tomorrow.

You also expand upon your work in your online community called Anchor Labs, which focuses on resiliency for leaders. Tell us about Anchor Labs. Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah so anchor Labs is kind of that. Kind of was the answer to folks after I've worked with them, to say, like, what else right? I want to dive deeper. I want to spend more time learning about some of these, like,

undercurrents of these behaviors. So anchor Labs is a series of courses that allows people, at a self paced kind of way, to embrace and kind of dive deeper into some of these concepts and really get sustained results, which, whereas as scientists, that's what we're all about. We want to make sure people have the tools to be able to have the outcomes that so many people are promised, but don't actually

have a chance of having. But we actually found a way to get that to people, which it's really exciting to be part of. And you also co host a weekly podcast with singer and songwriter Peter Katz, titled In Time. Peter is from such a different background than you. How did the two of you come together and collaborate? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, so Peter Katz is my co host, and he is a brilliant singer songwriter. He is just a remarkable, talented human who is also deeply creative as the

takes to be a master in that field. And so Peter and I, we've been friends for a really long time, and this is this kind of neat thing that ended up happening. So Peter and I, again, we come from such different perspectives, right? Like, he's literally a musician, I'm a scientist. And what would happen is we would be like, just chit chatting. We'd be talking about something, and then we noticed people would be like,

listening, right? Like we could be in like a coffee shop having a chat, or going down for a walk on on the boardwalk, and then people just be like, how did you guys like? What did you guys say? Or how did you come upon that? And it's just really enriched conversation from different world views. And I think so often we spend a lot of our time with like minded people, which is great. We want to surround ourselves with people that are going to elevate us and move us forward, but they

tend to be the people who think a lot like we do. And what we wanted to offer, what we shared with the world is this, like, once a week, little check in where we just are. We're just having a conversation about, you know, what, what we're seeing,

what we're going through. Both of us are also professional speakers, so we're kind of always traveling around the world and and we call it in time, because we just drop in for half an hour wherever we are, and we just talk about things that that we're seeing and patterns and trends that we notice are happening and and really just try to offer people like this place where, you know, we can have dialog and discourse and just talk about something other than all that negativity,

unfortunately, that just is so prevalent right Now in our lives, and kind of a safe space where people can land just to, like, listen to some cool ideas that maybe could shift some ways of seeing the world. I gave you a really quick example of a neat little learning that happened really early on when we were on this podcast together. I made a comment just really quickly, and I said, you know, oh, this will allow me to kind of kill two birds with one stone, right? It's an expression that I grew

up with, seems like, yeah, people get it. And he paused and he said, or do you think you could try to feed like two birds from one hand? And he's just like, Robin, your language is so aggressive, like, you have really violent language at times. And I'm like, what? And he's like, Yeah. He said, you know? He said, You, you know, you Yeah, had this great interview. You killed it. And he's like, or were you really

impactful, right? So as a creative He's so sensitive to language, because, again, he's a master of words, and just this, like, radical kind of interruption for me, where all of a sudden everybody's like, wow, I use really, really aggressive language, even though I would say, like, I really care deeply about people, and I'm so tender hearted, wow, I didn't even notice how. Aggressive. Sometimes my language was so

again again. It's just something so simple as how we describe something and how when we hear it from another person's perspective, it just, it's just a really cool learning and anytime we can have those like, wow, I never saw it that way. I just think that's this beautiful, like, there's just so much possibility there to just really shift our thinking in an elevated way.

What legacy do you hope to leave behind through your professional work, anchor labs, the podcast and groups you speak with and to? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: On a professional level? The legacy that I want to offer is that hope is a strategy for all of this, in terms of resiliency, in terms of well being like, I just want that to be something that people carry into the future, that we're not defined by the worst things that have happened to us, that there's these comebacks that are available.

And I just really want that to permeate that, yeah, there's a lot of hardship in the world, a lot of injustice, a lot of bad parts, and there's a way through it, so that professionally, I want to, I do want to radically shift how we think about resiliency, to include it, to also include hope. So how is that different from what you'd consider to be your personal legacy? Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, so it definitely has. There's

definitely parts that break together. For me, the legacy and she was someone that was very generous, that she forgave, and she was very generous with forgiveness. She was very generous with the people in her lives. And again, you don't need to remember me. I just want you to remember how I made other people feel, that they felt that generosity. Where can our listeners connect with you and pick up copies of your books, your the podcast, or learn more?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: So the best starting place again at Dr, robyne.ca, Robyne with an E and again, on social. I find social is a great way to be able to keep these conversations going. So Dr, Robyne, on social and again, thank you so much for just asking such big, beautiful questions. Thank you for just being so prepared for this. And I really appreciate your work.

I've been listening to your podcast in my morning walks, and I just love the work that you're doing, like it's just such a refreshing approach that you cover so many different topics, and I love it. I just love that you're putting this into the world.