¶ Common Copper Certification Issues
Hey Wiremonkeys , welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling . This episode we're talking five common issues with copper certification . Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers , project managers , estimators , isd personnel , customers , even end users . We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world .
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You know I do a live stream on TikTok and Facebook and LinkedIn and YouTube where you get to ask your favorite RCDD and you know that's me questions on installation , certification , design , project management , even career path questions . But I could hear you now . But , chuck , I'm driving my truck at 6 pm on Thursday . I don't want to crash my truck .
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So one of the most common things that I get asked questions about is testing , especially copper testing , and it seems like I keep getting asked the same questions over and over and over again . So I wanted to make sure that maybe I do a show where we talk about the five most common questions that I get asked about copper certification all in one file .
So now , when people in the future and if you're listening to this , in the future , you can say , hey , chuck , what about blah , blah , blah ? I can say , hey , go to this episode and I answer that question . Start making it easier for myself . Who doesn't want to make their job easier ? I want to make mine easier . I'm talking about the rest of you .
So I figured what I would do is , I would bring on a subject matter expert . So I brought on Tom Jallo from Softing . Tom , how are you doing ?
my friend , I'm doing great , Chuck .
How are you Doing ? Fantastic , man . It's good seeing you last week . I always seem to catch up with you at industry events .
Yeah , we're always bumping into each other , it seems , in the midst of chaos , which is Right , yeah .
What we need to do is next time I'm in Tennessee or next time you're in Florida , we just need to sit down without any industry people around and just have a cup of coffee and just talk , because you're always going 100 hundred miles in one direction , I'm going a hundred miles an hour in a different direction and just like we're like passing ships in the night
, yeah .
Yeah , absolutely yeah , I agree with that .
So why don't you tell us who you are and who saw ?
Yeah , so my name is Tom Jallo . I am my current role , I guess , with Softing . The company is I am Director of Business Development and prior to doing that for Softing , I was Director of Support , which is , I guess , really relevant to the conversation that we're having today , conversation that we're having today . So who is Softing and why is it relevant ?
Softing is a German-based manufacturer of a number of different things in technology . Honestly , we have an automotive division , industrial automation division , but we have an entire division for IT network testing tools . So cable testers , fiber optic testers , network testing tools just a lot of really neat stuff , especially in the ICT industry , that benefits things .
And one of the tools that we've been manufacturing actually one of the longest or the tool that's been around probably the longest and started our interest in this area is a wire expert certifier , which is a certification test tool with support for Softing .
It was my job to speak with technicians , project managers , company owners , the lead tech , the beginning tech , all with these questions about hey , how do we deal with this testing issue in certification , for that matter , not just certification , but any type of cable testing that you could that we deal with Right and our our ?
We're talking about technicians and companies and organizations that are testing to just about every type of degree or every degree that you can imagine . In other words , they're doing a you know a very thorough job . They're doing it by the book . They're they're testing the standards . They're doing a very thorough job .
They're doing it by the book , they're testing the standards . They're doing everything that you could possibly imagine and they need help with a particular topic there To also technicians who really have not been informed or not have proper training and stuff like that , and it's our job to kind of fill them in and get them going in the right direction .
So we're dealing with all different aspects of testing in this space and all different aspects of technicians or users in this space . So that gives perspective to me and to anybody else in that role on this particular topic .
Yeah , I like it . I didn't know that about you . I mean I knew what your role was , but I didn't realize that you play that role in support , where you talk to , seems like every level of person involved in the industry .
So I would think that would give you some unique insight on to the challenges that they face out in the field , as opposed to the challenge that a project manager might face in the office trying to see what results on the backside of that manager might face in the office .
Trying to deal with the results on the backside of that right and they'll get them wrong . They're just as complicated , but if it's not done right in the field , that makes the project manager's job a lot harder in the back end .
You know , it's all the same , I guess , group of problems , right , but there are almost inevitably different drivers to find success and there may be even different , I guess , ways to measure success in these situations . So it's a really interesting topic . I know that , you know .
So , behind the scenes , you know , you and I have been talking about different things and you floated I forgot how it happened you floated this idea to me and my response to you was that's an awesome topic .
I can talk about it and yeah , like immediately , because it is , uh , it's been , it's painful for technicians at times and we feel that we understand it , we've lived it , you know .
so , yeah , that's , uh , it's , it's a great topic that was big scene and that just shows you how long it took for us to finally make it and there are some technicians probably , I would say the vast majority of technicians that you would think were in the computer industry . They'd be really good with computers and stuff .
But do you know how many times I've watched people sign in on my computer on the sign-in sheet , typing literally two fingers at a time ? And how do I build space ? So when you throw , and a tester is nothing but a computer . So I can certainly see if you make their life difficult .
I could see how they could become frustrated and make a project manager frustrated , right ? So let's talk about manufacturing , warranties and stuff , right ? So a lot of the manufacturers require certification testing in order for warranty and stuff , and there's a library in the tester that has , you know , different types of cables .
How big of an issue is it if somebody the technician in the field didn't enter the right manufacturer information in the tester for their warranty ?
It could potentially be a big enough of a deal that they have to go back to the job site to do the testing again . That's a big deal . So you know what you're
¶ Optimizing Cable Certification Testing
talking about . Let me go ahead and share screen and I'll show you what we're , what , what , what you're referencing there . Let me grab these on and let me go ahead and share screen . I , I bring um , I bring visual aids to this discussion . Chuck , okay . Because , technicians are visual learners . They are . They are Absolutely , and technicians are visual too .
So , going back to the support , one of the first things we would ask is hey , can you send us a picture of your problem , right ? Picture's worth a thousand words . So let's go ahead and share screen , all right . I have on my workbench here , okay , I have on my workbench a wire expert certification test set .
So in the bottom right you can see both local and remote unit . In the top left , the bigger screen that we're sharing here , you can see the local unit . Okay . So our certification test is a little bit different than everybody else's in that you have two screens . Okay , it's nice , because that allows you to be more informed during the testing .
Both people if you're doing two person testing one person at one side , one person at the other side you're more informed on what's going on . Okay , a lot of other testers on the market , it's okay . They only have one screen , okay . So there's basically only one person who's seen what's going on .
But what you're referring to for this first , I guess our number , our first entry into common certification issues , is not having the correct cable manufacturer information in there . So let's , let's come up with a , a generic cable manufacturer . Okay , do you want to give them the name of the cable manufacturer ? Do you want to pick one in there ? Just pick Acme .
Acme is my favorite . Okay , there you go .
So let's say , the roadrunners , the roadrunners , they're , uh , they're , uh , they're , they're that's right .
So let's say , the Acme categoryategory 6A cable is what you bought . You paid good money for it .
Acme makes great stuff , it's got great headroom all the things that people say and maybe true about good cable right , and you need to test it for this application and on your spec even it says Acme Category 6A plenum cable should be used and all this kind of stuff .
So you've done the thing that you need to do , which is go and source the appropriate cable and then you've installed it and now you're ready to do your certification test . All right , you can list that cable in the tester . Okay , that's what we're talking about here . Okay , that's what we're talking about here .
You can't change that information after the test is completed because it actually changes some things in the test , thatity stake of doing the certification testing . So you go into the tester . If you look at my local unit right now , the cable is listed generic . You can see the limit is Cat6 permanent link .
We can change that to 6A in a second , but the cable is Cat6 UTP . That's just as generic as it gets . It doesn't say Acme . What you are saying is that there is a library of cables and cable manufacturers and there are . So I'll just click and show you that . I'll click on the test settings area and you can see that there is a cable type .
Let's click on the cable type , okay , and you can see . Look at all these different manufacturers out there . Right Is Acme in there . Did I have it in there ?
Yeah , it's in there . Scroll up there .
That's not . That's actually Acom .
Oh , I guess I probably put my glasses on . Here we go . I'll put my glasses on . Now I can read .
So I mean , look through there . This is basically kind of like the default manufacturers that we have in here , okay , and we have a pretty big list of manufacturers in there , right , and you could choose any of those . Of course they're not Acme , so let's just pick one . Real quick , I'm going to go through and let's , let's choose one .
Let's say that we had I'm not going to try to pull any favors here or or bias here so let's just grab , uh , uh , let's grab this right here , okay . So I'm just gonna grab , oops , let's grab , uh , grab that one .
Okay , and you can see once I get into that manufacturer , there's actually the individual cable types that I could choose , okay , and so that's what we're talking about . I could choose that , and that will be on the test when I submit this report , and I can't do that later on . I need to do that up front . So I think that is our number one mistake .
Now , as far as Acme , if I don't even have that manufacturer on there , of course , would you made up Acme ? I can actually enter in a custom cable manufacturer to this . So let's scroll back up , right . So I go up here to the very top and you can see there's an option there for customized cable .
I can click into customized cable and I can actually write in ACME as my cable manufacturer . I can say that it's a 6A , I can choose that , and that will show up in the tester and on our test set .
Once it's on the local unit and you connect to the other unit , it will show up on the other side so that the user can both users can say oh , I see , acme , we're good to go , we're meeting this requirement and we're not going to have to come back to the job site and retest .
Now , does it just use a generic MVP or can you find the actual MVP for the Acme XTP-QVR75-3XT-4-UTP-whatever ? You know , you've actually with our links , with our stuff .
Well , okay , so this didn't make my top top seven , six five list . Okay , but it's , it's a problem . You just hit on another problem . So the MVP is the nominal velocity of propagation . That's basically a , that is a constant that cable manufacturers use to calculate the length .
Okay , In other words , if I have the right MVP and I'm testing in reality a hundred meters or we'll say 90 meters of cable and I test it , if I'm using the right MVP , it's going to say that I've got 90 meters or very accurate .
But if I've got the wrong MVP value let's say it's off by a few percentage points right , then it could say that that 90 meters is actually 85 meters or a hundred meters , and I don't want that to happen . So having the right MVP is critical and in our database of cables the MVPs are listed by the manufacturer .
So if you choose the right cable type , that MVP will be entered in and therefore your length value will be correct during your testing . Good question , yeah , because even if it's off , just a tiny bit and you're testing ?
Good question , yeah , because even if it's off just a tiny bit , like I said , if you've got a cable , that's right there at 99.9 meters , right . If you've got the wrong MVP , that could kick you back a face .
And you could be going back to job site or pulling cable down . Absolutely yes .
Yeah , could be a problem . So it's critical that they enter in the right manufacturer and the right type . And how much of a concern is it if they select riser , let's say , the right model cable , but they select the riser version of , not the pump ?
So this is the other side of this question . It could be a very big problem , right . So there's the question of choosing the right cable so that somebody gets credit to meet a spec , right .
But riser versus plenum is another problem that could potentially have a bigger deal , right , like riser versus plenum is a part of you know fire code , this kind of thing for a safety concern , and if you use the right cable but have the wrong type of cable listed on your tester , that could cause somebody in the approval process to say wait a minute , we didn't
approve this , we don't like it Right . Or you know the opposite of that situation , in that you use the wrong thing and you have the right one listed , or something like that . That could also be a problem . You could get kind of rejected through the certification process for a number of reasons by different AHJs Authority Having Jurisdictions .
So is the MVP for RISER and the MVP versus plenum ? Are they close enough together that if you test one accidentally with the riser , that it's still I mean , let's say , let's say not necessarily talking about you know meeting spec ? Let's just say just they're doing .
Let's say , a company's out there and they just , as a general rule , certify every new cable that they install they're not trying to meet the spec . But the tech actually put in the riser cable instead of the plenum cable . Knowing that he put in plenum cable , he just selected riser cable accidentally in the library because he didn't pay attention to details .
Not that that ever happens Is the MVP close enough that those two test results will be good , or are they far enough apart that we might have to go back and retest ? Yeah , I can't say that there is correlation there between MVP and Riser versus Plenum consistently , so I can't say yes or no to that .
I get that because you know Manufacturer A might be insignificant , but Manufacture B it might be a wide variant .
So I get that you know , realize that you have options between plenum and riser in the different manufacturers , but you also have the option between shielded and unshielded options as well , and those are all there for you to choose from in the various manufacturer type options in the tester manufacturer type options in the tester and when they select the , the shielded
version , that'll tell the tester to do that .
additional test for the for the drain wire .
That's correct . It's looking for a shield of some variety , continuity across the cable and the connectors on either side . It doesn't necessarily have to be the drain wire , but yeah , it's looking for a shield , variant foil , foil , screen , drain wire , something in there . It's looking for that .
Yes well , there you go , there's , there's quite , there's number one yeah , let's do um , yeah , so so no , no pre-testing with a wire map yeah , I think that this is good .
This was on my short list on there . So you know , this is a question of efficiency . So , like there's a number of ways you can kind of , I guess , mess up in this area or make your life more difficult or , on the other side of this , make it easier . I think testing with a wire mapper is a no-brainer .
Okay , first off , certification testers are typically slow . You know , our tester auto test time is around 10 seconds or so . There are some other certifiers that actually test faster than ours for auto test time , but on the other side of that , again , we have two test screens telling you what's going on .
So , you know , is auto test time the highest point , or the highest measurement of efficiency ? I make the argument that being right on your testing and being set up is a bigger mark of efficiency . So , but faster than all of that , all the certification options is to run a simple wire mapper . I have one just on screen here . So here is a .
Here is a Softing Cable Master 210 . It's a super simple device . It's inexpensive , right ? So here is are the two the local and remote unit for this tester , and what ?
What I'm , what I'm suggesting here , is that using one of these simple wire mappers to prove that you've got your cabling punched down correctly In other words , you don't have any crosses , you don't have any opens , you don't have any shorts okay and that you've got 568A versus 568B right you don't have A on one side and B on the other side right Is all done
okay , correctly is a huge improvement on efficiency , not to mention that your certification tester may be at a different job site . It's probably in high order , since it's expensive tool and needs calibrations , things like that .
These tools are inexpensive , they're quick , they can be ran by really any technician right , with little to no training , and so use these tools to prove out that you have wired correctly , that you're landed in the right port , ok , before you bring in the big certifier to go in and do the testing . I think that's a huge mistake .
I can see the value there on a larger project where , like you said , there's a company that might only have one or two certifiers . They don't issue them out to everybody . You're having to share them , and I can see where running it with a continuity tester while you're waiting for the certifier to become available .
My only hiccup there is that needs to be priced into the job for the labor side , because then the project , because if it's just 10 cables , it's just 10 cables , that's no big deal , but if you're talking 5,000 cables , that's some labor hours .
¶ Testing Efficiency in Structured Cabling
What ?
to add the wire mapper .
Yeah , to do tests . What's it take 15 seconds of tests .
For a wire mapper . Yeah , yeah , one second .
So one second , so it's 5,000 seconds , right , oh , and I've got to break up my calculator now Put on my passcode , go to my calculator . So 5,000 seconds divided by 60 minutes that's 83 minutes . So that's times two because you got somebody on each side .
Look , are we going to get into an argument , Chuck .
No , no , no , no . I'm just all I'm saying is . What I'm saying is on a small project is not the big deal , but on a larger project , I agree with you . I'm not . I'm not disagreeing .
All I'm saying is that's still 83 minutes times two , that's two hours that somebody , the two guys , are gonna have to go through , and run it but and then when the comes here it'll be faster because they won't have any issues .
I get that , but I'm gonna the estimator needs to know to on a larger project , to put that a little bit that you're actually a bit .
I agree with half of your math in that situation . So the part that I disagree with if these problems are there , okay , if these problems are there , it is , it is . Remember when you get to the certification stage . If you have a problem , your tools are already put away , right ? Your punchdown tools are already put away .
You may have to run a new cable God forbid to correct this issue . Right , your punchdown tools are already put away . You may have to run a new cable God forbid . To correct this issue . Right . You may have to bring in another connector . You may have to do all this kind of stuff . So it's like an order of operations situation , right ?
The argument that we have here is that when you bring in your certifier , it really should be kind of like the icing on the cake , and and and you should be chasing only minor issues . Major issues should be corrected and put away and put to bed , and the technicians , the manpower to correct these issues should be minimized in any way possible .
So the test time that you have with this tester and again it's like it's literally like one second , a test for this right Is so fast that it warrants going through and doing a quick check . Imagine a 24-port patch panel . That's potentially 24 seconds .
Add a couple seconds for actually moving down the line , so in a few minutes you have wire map checked , the entire patch panel from end to end so so I agree with , I agree with half what
you're saying right . So yes , it's one second to plug it in and test it . And you said go down a 24 port patch panel . Well , in a lot of scenarios those are in 24 different rooms . Sure , yeah , so now the guy on the other side has to walk from one room to the next .
That's not one second , oh , but you can have multiple remotes for your wire map . Wire mapper .
You still got to walk between the rooms . You could you still got to walk between the rooms ? I ? Agree with you that the process ? you say will definitely keep what you said the certified as icing . I agree with that . My only point is , if you're going to do this two-step process from looking from an estimator's goggles again , small project , 10 cables eat it .
I did a project once for the world's largest office building , located somewhere in Virginia . They had millions upon millions of feet of cable installed in that building . So if you multiply one second times , the number drops . That adds up and then the time walks in . All I'm saying is from an estimator's perspective .
If you're going to do the two-step process and I agree because now you get that squared away by the time you get to the certifier you should rock and roll through that . You're not going to sit there with a certifier sitting there idle while you're trying to reverse a pair or do whatever . I get that .
Remember , the certifier probably needs to go to another because you can have 10 of these testers for little to no money . Your certifier . You definitely have a limited number of those . Even large contractors have a limited number .
Absolutely . What's the street value of the continuity ?
$80 MSRP for something like this right , and it doesn't have to be ours . You can use others . It has an office locator kit . I know I've watched your shows . You like office locator kits . It has options with those . It has an office locator kit . I know I've watched your shows . You like office locator kits .
It has options with those , has additional remotes , has a tone generator built in , and I think we think they're great . Softing has one . It doesn't have to be ours . You can go out and find others of these , but again , we think that this is a great way to improve your testing prior to bringing in the certifier and minimizing your certification time .
Yeah , because , like you said , a lot of companies they only have . You know , I work for a large contractor in the DC area . We had 20 certifiers 20 , and I can never find one when I need it , that's right , Because they're always on a job site somewhere , or they're with the service tech , or they were back the manufacturer's getting calibrated or something .
I can never find one when I need it . So yeah , I can certainly see how the two-step process would save time . I agree with that . I wasn't disagreeing . I wasn't disagreeing , Fair enough . Fair enough , fair enough . So the next one , next thing that you'd send to me you know common things is testing to channel instead of a permanent link .
Why don't you expand on that one for me ?
What we're talking about is link definitions and essentially choosing the wrong link definitions . So in structured cabling there are two . It used to be just two and there were two all day long . Right , that we were concerned with and now there's three . So I'm actually going to merge two of mine into one so that maybe I'll get a bonus or something like that
¶ Understanding Network Testing
. But basically what we're saying here is testing to the wrong link definition . So the two that have always been around are permanent link , which is from patch panel to the work outlet . That's jack to jack . You also have an optional consolidation point in between there .
That's the permanent link and then the other is channel , which would be that same permanent link , and then the other is channel , which would be that same permanent link , but there's an equipment cord or a patch cord on either end of that .
And I'm testing through all of that through the patch panel , through the entire permanent link , back out through the work outlet to the patch cord going to your PC or whatever device a phone or whatever is at the opposite end .
Those are different measurements so there's different allowable values within each of those measurements and so if you choose the wrong limit on your tester it could potentially give you false readings you also could be . Another aspect of this is you could be mandated by the spec or by the project to make one of those two measurements .
Nowadays , permanent link is really the more popular of those two choices and there's a couple of reasons for that which we can get into , but permanent link is the popular of the more popular of those two choices . So know the difference between those . Know what you're required to test right and choose correctly on your tester .
You can see on my tester right now on the main setup screen I have a link definition , a limit test for CAT6 permanent link . It's clearly shown . And again on our tester , the remote unit will also show this permanent link right .
So as two technicians are sitting here looking and thinking about the project , they should both know what is required of them , either by the boss , by your boss , or by the spec , and they should both be thinking we need to test category six , permanent link , and they should look at that on their tester and make sure that that's what they're doing for the
entirety of the testing at that job site .
That brings up a good point . The testing at that job site ? That brings up a good point . You know my project managers who are listening when you convert that that contract into a scope of work . Details mean everything . Yes . Yeah . Details mean everything .
So and that's what that's when you write this good work , that's when you say , hey , it's gotta be tested with . You know , you know cat five , you know Cat5 , cat5e , cat6 , cat6a , permanent link or channel or whatever . And for me , you know , we're talking about permanent link versus channel . You know , for me , the whole reason .
I think that the industry leans toward permanent link is because , number one , when the technicians are terminating and testing stuff , usually the patch scores haven't arrived yet . So you know , wait for the patch cord to get there .
And from a manufacturer's perspective , I know that a lot of manufacturers lean towards permanent link because there are some technicians out there who may not have been trained , may not have been trained right , and they can't get something past permanent link and say , okay , let's change every channel . Oh , look , it passes with a channel , there's other issues there .
You got to figure out what those other issues are . So I think I think that's why my manufacturers push towards permanent .
I can think of another reason , and maybe , maybe , maybe one . That's maybe a little more . I don't know what's the word I'm looking for here . I guess a little more negative perspective . Okay , I'll just share this example , right ?
Maybe there's one bad contractor out there that ruined it for everybody else We'll just use that , okay , so yeah , let's say , the trunk slammer ruined this for everybody else . So let's let's say that it's not the case that you said that the patch cords haven't arrived to project yet . Let's say that those patch cords have arrived to project .
But that trunk slammer decided to save money by buying inexpensive patch cords hundreds of them , Hundreds of them and instead of testing with those inexpensive , poor-performing patch cords , they got some really good patch cords just two of them and they connected them on the channel link that they're testing and therefore improved the performance of that particular channel
test , and they moved those same two patch cords to every… .
That's not the way you do channel testing . You're supposed to leave the patch cord .
Yes , and that is . Uh , maybe that's a little negative point of view and maybe we can blame that no , I don't think it is .
I don't think it is because there's stuff like that happens and you know , I see , you know , I see it in all of the all of the social media groups . There's people out there that are championing to do it the right way , the best practice way , and then there's other people that are just looking to do the minimum amount of effort just to get you .
And you see it everywhere , you truly do .
That's it for this episode of today's podcast . We hope you were able to learn something . Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future content . Also , leave a rating so we can help even more people learn about telecommunications . Until next time , be safe .