15th Edition TDMM Released and Top Ten Estimating Questions

This is gonna be an exciting show , okay , exciting show . I got so much to talk about and so little time to do it in . I don't know how I'm gonna do it all and just . I don't know how we're gonna do it , though we are going to do it . So , as we always start off every episode , right , every episode .

If you've been a member of this podcast for any period of time , you know I always start off with what are you drinking ? This is an after-hours live show . You can drink anything you want , even the dull beverages , but Chuck's drinking water . I'm already hyped up . I don't need anything like that right now . Oh , my Lord , yeah , I'm drinking .

Actually , I'm thinking back . Hold on , it's not water . It's not water . It's Zevia , rupir soda , that's right . No sugar , no coloring my favorite favorite things . So tell us in the chat box what are you drinking right now ? Anthony's in the house . Anthony , lots of good stuff coming on this show . You better hang around . Lots of good stuff .

So tell us in the chat box what are you drinking . Hold on , I gotta get back over to my live stream . I lost my live stream somewhere . There it is there , it is yes , yes . So , chat box , open it up . So let me see . Somebody here says , unfortunately , unsweetened tea . I saw the greatest meme .

It said and I'm paraphrasing it because I can't remember exactly how it was worded it said something about there is nothing that compares to the disappointment a Southerner has when they take a big gulp of an unsweet tea . Yes , yes , right , so , absolutely yes . So again , we're drinking tea . Now you know if I've done the after hours thing .

I did the acronym challenge . So this acronym challenge , let me throw it up here real quick . Man , I really need to get my wife to help me with this stuff . I really really do . Today's acronym challenge is TDMM . Helps when you put the microphone in front of your face , chuck . Tdmm what does that stand for ? Anthony's drinking water , by the way .

Tdmm what does that acronym stand for ? Put your answer in the chat box . Oh , by the way , I also have to say my TDM message . Please help them control the acronym population . Don't forget to spay or neuter your acronym . We have enough , we don't need any more . We don't , we don't . So let me see Nobody in TikTok has answered yet .

Let me check the chat box if anybody has answered there yet . Let me see Nobody has ordered . Nope , nope , nope . Oh man , old Sergeant , I got some bad news for you , buddy , in a second . It stands for telecommunications distributions methods manual . I'm sorry , telecommunications distribution methods manual . I always seem to throw in that extra S .

I don't know why . I don't know why . Just you know I am who I am and sometimes it just , yeah , it just it rolls , it rolls . Now , why did I pick the TDM as my acronym for today ? Does anybody know ? Because the 15th edition TDM was released today . It was released today , january 25th 2024 . Yes , they got lots of new stuff in it .

They got some single pair ethernet connector stuff in it , some other stuff . I haven't read all the stuff in it yet . Which means good news and bad news . If you're studying for your RC exam or you're gonna start studying , you're gonna have to buy the 15th edition Right now . If you go online to Bigsy , you can only purchase the hard copy .

You can only purchase the hard copy . The electronic copy should be available , according to Bigsy , tomorrow . But yeah , just in case , I'd wait till Monday because you know things can happen . But here's that If you are going to the Bigsy conference , if you are going to the Bigsy conference and you purchase the 15th edition TDM , you will get a discount .

Yes , if you're an RCDD , you will get a 30% discount if you purchase the TDM at the Bigsy conference . If you're a yet to be RCDD , you're gonna start studying for it . If you purchase it at the Bigsy conference , you will get a 25% discount . So I think it was like 325 for non-members . So 30% and 325 . Hello , that's a chunk of change .

That is a chunk of change . Now , when I saw that email come across today , I was filled with questions . Filled with questions because you know that I just started a TDM study group . This is week two . We were doing it right after this live stream tonight , right Now . Look , here's some people who answered it . There you go .

Ron got it , of course , michael got it . I would have known that you got it . I thought that was because you're our favorite RCDD . I am your favorite RCDD , you're right . Right , yes , you can say it . So I was filled with lots of questions , right , because right now , you got a lot of people who had the 14th edition who were studying .

You got people who have already applied for the RCDD exam . You got people who are studying the 14th edition . But have what do these guys do ? So I reached out to Bigsy because inquiring minds got to know . Inquiring minds got to know .

So , if you are studying for your 14th edition right now and you've already submitted your application to sit for the exam and that application was accepted , you have up to one year to take the test on the 14th edition . Okay , good news .

If you are studying for the 14th edition right now and you have not submitted your application , bixie will accept applications for the 14th edition RCD up until the 31st of May 2024 . Now I suggest you don't wait till May 31st . I suggest you do it now . Okay , get it into books , get it accepted . Then you have a year from that date .

Okay , a year from that date . Now , with that being said , the last exam , the last exam that they're going to do on the 14th edition , is the 1st of June 2025 . So if you're studying the 14th edition , even though the 15th just came out . Put your application in , get it accepted .

That way you can still take it on the 14th , because if you wait , shathees in Hells , he'll tell you every single time that they come out with a new version of the TDMM . They add pages . Do it . That's more stuff you got to memorize , more stuff you have to memorize . Okay , great , great news . There is some other information as well , too .

The version 15 applications will start to be accepted on the 1st of June 2024 . If you're looking to take a Bixie class , a Bixie instructor-led class , on the 14th edition , there will be no available after the 10th of June of 2024 . Okay , the 2024 . So keep that in mind . That's good news , isn't it ?

You can still so , if you're studying your RSED , you can still . You still have time , but you don't procrastinate . Don't procrastinate . Speaking of Bixie , you know I'm going there . I'll be there Sunday , monday , tuesday , wednesday , all the way up to the end of the awards banquet , I'm doing a podcast meetup at 3 pm at the Big Bixie sign .

If you've ever been to a Bixie conference , you know they always have the big sign , the Bixie letter , and people always kind of stand around and they take pictures and stuff . I will be there . I'll be there . I'll be there at the podcast meetup on the Tuesday at 3 pm and I will have stickers .

As long as they last , as long as they last , I will have stickers . Okay , I only have like 200 , so , yeah , try to be the first one there . Did you get a chance to catch last week's show ? Well , not last week , the Monday , the one that just came out . I had a special guest , henry Frank .

Henry Frank , he participates on the standards committees and we had an instant conversation , number one , on volunteering for committees , whether they're the standards committees or the Bixie committees . But the show was about cable dressing . Should you dress your cable ? Should you not dress your cable ? Make sure you watch that show .

It was a really , really , really good show . Now , next Monday show you don't want to miss that because it was a first for the podcast , right ? I recorded live at the POE consortium back in . I don't remember when it was . It was a couple of months ago , right ?

So that show's going to edit out , that show's going to be editing it now and it'll come out on Monday . I might even release it on Sunday , it kind of depends . And it's a first for this podcast show because I recorded live . It's another first for the podcast because I had like six guests all at once .

It's another first for the podcast because normally people look at my videos and they think it's really complicated . It's really just two video feeds it's my video feed and it's your video feed . You know who I'm interviewing and then I kind of put them together , the show as a POE consortium . I have three different camera feeds , seven different microphones .

Yeah , it was a little bit above my skill sets , but I'm working through it . I'm working through it . So you're welcome for the information I absolutely pass along . You can actually watch this recorded video if you want to send this video to them as well , and they can always reach out to me too .

So I was answering somebody there on on TikTok , don't forget , you can purchase let's Talk Cabling merchandise , right ? So I've got the page set up . Go to the link tree in the description there so you can buy .

You can buy t-shirts , you can buy wire monkey shirts , anything that you ever see me wear , except for the RCD shirts , because you have to be an RCDD to get that . I'm selling them just to help kind of make some money for the , for the podcast , right ? So there we go . Oh , and one other thing I want to talk about before I move on , right ?

I've said this every time and I'm going to preach this until the end of time what's the big membership cost ? Everybody know if top their head . I think it's like 135 bucks , I think . I think . I think that sounds about right .

What if I told you you could have a mentor for a year who has a big C RCDD , osp , dc , dc , you know , rtpm for that cost of that big C membership ? Would you be interested ? Because right now , as you know , I help volunteer on the committee for the Big C membership mentorship program and the beautiful thing is we have more mentors than we have mentees .

Right , more mentors than mentees . So if you know somebody like the guy who just said in TikTok about the people studying , have them sign up for mentorship . You can scan this QR code right there , or you can go to the Big C website and look at the mentorship program .

I'm going to leave that QR code up so , even though it kind of blocks my sign , but that's OK , mentorship is more important . Mentorship is more important , right ? So now let's go ahead and move it . Oh , let's answer this question right here . Bum , bum , bum , here we go .

So they'll expect me to have the 15th edition if I take the class looking for class in July . Sadly , I can't do it before then . Yeah , yeah , if you're going to take it after that date , yeah , you're going to have to get the 15th edition , unfortunately . Good question , chris , and I'll see you tonight .

And Shatya answered the question about the membership , the Big C membership . It costs $119 for a Big C membership and then you can get into the mentorship program as a mentee . But then you get all the other benefits . You get discounts on , for example , the TDM . It's 325 if you're a member and I think 375 or 350 or 375 if you're a nonmember .

So there's advantages to it . There's absolutely advantages to it . All right , so the subject of today's show wasn't about the TDM . It wasn't . The subject for today's show was the 10 most commonly asked estimating questions .

Darrell , how you doing my friend Now , these questions are the most commonly questions I get about estimating and I could literally do a show about each of these questions , about each of these questions , but I've got to get through these things in 30 minutes or less because I've got a study group I'm running tonight . Several of them are in here tonight .

Several of them are in here tonight , so let's go ahead and flip over to those questions . I remember how to do this again . I'm struggling through these platforms here . Sorry about that . One of these days I will actually talk to my wife and have running this stuff behind for me .

So the first question is what factors should be considered when estimating the cost of a cabling project ? Everything , everything . You need to sit down and do your due diligence . You need to be detail oriented . You need to read the details .

When I used to be an estimator and I would get a request for quote RFQ , a request for proposal , rfp I read through that thing twice before I even started to work on it . I read it the first time when I got it , just to kind of get an idea how big of a project it was , how much time it was going to involve .

And then I waited a day , sometimes two , and then I would read it again , because when you read it the second time , that's when you really start picking out the details . Right , because you need to know what is the scope of work . You need to know what is the size .

Is this something that's going to be done by a two-man crew , a four-man crew , a 50-man crew , right ? You need to know what types of quantities of cables are going to be needed , and you're going to get those from the blueprints , right .

So you're going to sit down with the blueprints , you're going to determine all the different types they have , count them up . If it's a job where you don't have blueprints , then you're probably going to have to walk around with the customer . They're going to have to identify where they want the drops at , and then you've got to come up with those footages .

Sometimes you don't even get that . Sometimes you have to estimate a price without a blueprint and without a walkthrough . How do you do that ? Well , you do that by when you write it up , you make an assumption on the average cable length so you can do an estimate based on an average run length of 150 feet .

And then what you do is , in the terms of conditions and assumptions you put verbiage in there that this estimate is based on the average run length of 150 feet . We will monitor the test results and if the average goes above 150 feet , we reserve the right to bill for additional costs for material and labor . That's how you protect yourself .

That's how you protect yourself , right ? Then you got to figure out your labor costs for the installation , Right . Is it going to be day shift , second shift , third shift ? Is this going to be your cable pulling crew or is this going to be your fiber crew ? You need to figure out what type of materials and what type of equipment .

Are they going to need scissor lifts ? Are they going to need a dumpster on site ? This is all the kind of stuff that you need to know . So you need to know all of those details , all of those details . Question number two it says how can one accurately determine the quantity and types of cables for a specific project ? Well , it's kind of just answered that .

Actually I kind of got ahead of myself . The blueprints is the best way and what I would do , and I didn't mention this a minute ago . But if you do an estimate off of a set of blueprints , make sure that you put in your response that your estimate is based on blueprints revision blah , blah , blah with the date revision .

That way you tie your price to a specific print . Let's be honest and Daryl can tell us this , but you probably give me 100% we are always the last one to get the revised set of prints , always the last . So you want to make sure that your price is tied to a specific drawing that way , if they oh , that wasn't the right one , here's the other one .

Well , there you go . My price is no longer null and void because it says right in my proposal it was based on this print , based on this day , this revision number , right . So make sure that you do that , make sure you understand the connectivity requirements . I messed this up one time .

I did a job for the federal government I won't say who it was and it was a classified site and I did the estimate for it and it was one of those really quick turnarounds . They gave it to us oh , we need this price backed by tomorrow , okay , and it was a very complicated design and I messed up the counts . Luckily for me , I'd actually doubled my counts .

I doubled my counts Right . Hard to scrap a mountain life Document document document . That's pro tip number one on my list of pro tips . Document document document . Yes , good job , good job .

So make sure that you really understand it , because had that been the other way , had I not had enough materials in it , I might have lost my job and the company would have lost money . Also , consider future expansion Right , and then when you're putting in the support system , maybe overbuild .

Actually , if you follow the standards , it says to design it for 30% growth . So put that in there , because the average lifespan of a structure cable plan is seven to 10 years . That doesn't mean the cable goes bad , it just means the customer buys new computers and they need better , faster cabling .

But there are some cable systems that last , for they're still in use 30 years later . But when you look at overall they kind of get replaced because of the moving , constant moving forward of technology . So always make sure that you that you always make sure that you consider the future .

Okay , you also want to make sure that you have a comprehensive cable schedule . So again , clear again document , document , document . Put in the , the , the , the proposal , a cable , a cable schedule . It says look , here's the , this , these cables are going to this room , this cable is going to the right . Here's the average one leg .

You are documenting what you found , documenting what you have found . Question number three oh my gosh , we're at 720 . I'm only on the third question . Oh my gosh . Hey , guys who are here , my study group tonight I might be late .

What are common challenges in estimating cabling , ict , cabling projects , and how can they be mitigated ? Okay , so the the the biggest one is a constantly changing scope .

That's why I like it when customers give me a written scope of work right , and it's documented , because I because now I know , because most bids are usually you're not a lot of times you're bidding against other contractors , so you want to make sure everybody's bidding the same document so that way you get a fair comparison .

So you want to make sure that you know , if the , if the scope does change , that you make sure all the other people get notified of that change . You know you probably think , well , why should I care if the other contractors get notified about the scope change ? Because you want them bidding the same thing .

If they don't get that information , their price will be cheaper than yours and they'll probably win the job and they'll probably lose money because they didn't get that change . Another big one unexpected site conditions , right , and I couldn't tell you how many times I've estimated a bid without the building even being there .

I had to do it on assumptions and then I had to assume that the hallway , the , the , the ceilings were free and clear , the interstitial space was free and cleared to run the cables and then when the guys got on site , guess what ? Somebody took our hallways right . You know clear communication with your clients . I kind of already touched base on it .

Anytime you have a question , if you call them , follow that up with a confirmation email . If it's in a competitive bid scenario , issue out an RFI request for information and make sure that everybody gets notified of that right . And then also staying up on your industry trends . This is another one that happens . The artist is bad for this . You know . What about ?

What about Chuck ? What about cat 6E ? Cat 6E ? There is no cat 6E in standards . Is there a cat 6E cable you can buy ? Yes , but it's not in standards . It's not in standards . Go on to question number four . Question number four what role does cable testing and certification play in the estimation process ? Ed , the old tech guy's in the house , ed Ed .

So the question number four what role does the cable testing and certification play in the estimation process ? Okay , you have to do it . You got to understand what is the requirement . Do they want certification , qualification or just verification ?

Because those are three different testers and those are three different tests and three different time values and three different level of technicians . You need to understand that A lot of customers they don't care about the certification , they just want a continuity test .

Dude and I can train two cable monkeys to how to do a continuity test in matter minutes and have them rock through a job site Certification a little different . That tester costs a lot more money . You have to have somebody who knows how to run that tester . That's a more experienced technician , that's somebody who's going to cost a little bit more .

So make sure that you understand that . Make sure you understand the true cost of testing equipment . A lot of people don't get this . The certifiers , the cable certifiers , those permanent link heads , have a lifespan , usually about 5,000 insurances . They are a consumable .

Consumable Now , consumable means that it's going to be part of this lifecycle , or maybe all of its lifecycle will get used up on the project . I'll give you an example . If you're estimating how to terminate a job that terminates fiber , let's say it's an old school where they're doing two-part epoxy and they're polishing stuff .

Well , you've got to factor in polishing pads , chem wipes . All that stuff is going to get used up during the job . That's called a consumable . So your tester heads are also consumables . So the best way to do this find out how much it costs to replace your tester heads . Call the manufacturer .

They'll give you the price and then ask them how many life cycles is this good for ? They'll tell you that too . Now all you got to do is take that dollar value , divide it by the number test that they say those heads are good for , and now you have a consumable number . So if you have a project that has 150 cables , you put it in your line .

150 labor , whatever your time value is five minutes , seven minutes , 10 minutes , 15 minutes , whatever it is and then on the material side , you put in that little bit of a stipend for each test . So that way , when you win up enough project where you've tested 5000 insertions , you brought in enough money to buy a new set of heads . It's a consumable .

It's a consumable . And also those testers , especially the certifiers . The certifiers have to be calibrated once a year . Yeah , once a year . So if you're a big company , you got multiple testers . That's not a big deal .

But if you're a small company where you only have one tester , you might have to factor in the cost to ship those testers , the cost to rent an additional tester to hold you over while yours is getting calibrated . These are things that you got to think about . That's what you got to think about . Question Excuse me , I got the hiccups . Question number five .

Question number five how do you count for factors like cable routing , cable trays and conduit in the estimation of cabling projects ? So on the conduit side of this , I've never estimated conduit . I've always got subcontractors to do . I would call up my local electricians . Here's the blueprints Give me the price for the conduit .

So I take that price and put my markup on it . Boom , put it in , put it in . So there's a guy that I'm collaborating with , jeff the 360 electrician . I asked him if he could come on tonight and talk about how to estimate conduit , because he's an electrician .

He actually has two shops , one in California , one in Wyoming but he was traveling so he couldn't do it tonight . So I asked him if he could create a video . Maybe I can make a short video content out of that . So I can't talk about the conduit Now . Let's talk about the other things the cable routing .

So the cable routing , the key is look at all the other prints , look at the electricians prints , look at the HVAC prints , look at the fire sprinkler prints , find out where they're going , what hallways you're going to be routing through , because you don't want to route through the same ones . So you've got to consider that .

You've got to consider that and then you have to understand the kind of cable . Or are you putting in cat 5e , cat 6 . Cat 6a Did you know that cat 6a cable can weigh up to as much as double of 5e ? It can , absolutely can . A thousand feet of 5e is about 20 pounds , 18 to 20 pounds .

There are some older cat 6a cables that are still on the market that weigh 40 pounds per thousand feet . Cat 6a is typically 23 gauge . Cat 5e is 24 gauge . It's more copper . Sometimes you have the cross web separator inside of it . Sometimes you've got the full shield inside of it . So it does just cost more .

So you might have to put in a more robust system . See when your material weighs more . Let's talk about J-hooks . So the standard is four to five feet of random distances .

If you're putting in a bunch of category 5e , category 5e , a bunch of category 6a , you might want to bring those J-hooks closer together , maybe to three or four feet , maybe one to two feet , depending on how many are going through that because of all the extra weight .

If you just go by the industry standard four to five feet apart , you will lose out on your material side . You will lose out on your labor side . Right , that's how you do that .

And then , once you've got your hallways lined out and here's a tip If you're not really good at estimating cable , tray , ladder , rack , most of the manufacturers will help you come up with a bill of materials . So if you send them the prints , they will kind of say , okay , here's what you're going to need , and they'll give you bill of materials .

And then you can take that , always double check it , always double check it , and then put that in your estimating sheet and you're rocking on and put your labor values to it .

Speaking of labor values , so a lot of times when you're estimating , here's the thing as an estimator I could not estimate how long it took me to do something , how long it took me to terminate a jack , how long it took me to test a jack , because not everybody could terminate a jack as fast as I could when I was in my prime .

I'm not trying to say that to Wag McDale , but we all know this . There are some people who are really good at stuff and there's other people who just kind of meander and get the way through it . You have to use an average , an average . So keep that in mind and there's a way that you can figure that

out . You know , if you're a owner of a company or an estimator and you win a project and go out to the project , you know once or twice while it's going on and look at you , just kind of watch , you know , see how long it takes them to terminate stuff . And then time , you know , don't let them know your time because they'll alter their behavior .

And what I used to do is I would do a QA inspection and then I would review it with the foreman on the site . Now , I would always do it somewhere where I can keep an eye on the crew and I said , okay , they're starting at that piece of furniture . And then I would talk to my project manager I'll talk about the QA and stuff like that .

When I got done , I'd see where they were . I said , okay , I know there's three jacks per place . Bam , bam , bam , that's you know X amount of jacks and so on and so forth . So they're doing their jacks in X period of time . Right , that's how you do that . Got a question in here on TikTok . I agree with the factor in the hourly price .

What do you got , think , a factor in the HR price , hr price , what ? The HR price , hr price , what's it ? Oh , home run price . Oh , okay , I've never heard that before . Home run price . I know some people who do estimate per drop and some people I my preference is always to estimate per foot because it's going to be more accurate .

But there's some people say , okay , well , you know , as a general cat , 5e one drop $125 . Okay , you know , just keep in mind that your runs aren't always going to be the same length . They're not always going to be drop tile ceiling . Sometimes you have to run through a solid ceiling , sometimes you have to go over things , go under things .

So that's why I'm not a big fan of the per drop price . I'm not a big fan of that , not a big fan . So that's my question what is the significance of compliance with industry standards and codes when estimating cabling projects ? Wow , wow , holy smokes . A number one always follow the code , always follow the code .

You don't have a choice in the matter , you don't . And if you enter into a contract with a customer and the contract stipulates that your work will have to meet or exceed the standards . Now you have to follow the standards . So you have to be thoroughly knowledgeable of both codes and standards codes and standards .

That's why I'm always doing what I'm doing , man , I'm always out here trying to tell people . Somebody asked me one of the social media groups early . I told you I'm in tons of them . And somebody asked about what was it ? Oh , they're talking about running cables to VoIP .

So there's a system where it's a phone , you run one category , you go to cable to it , it's got a pass through and then that could connect into the computer . So one cable ran both the phone and the computer . And then somebody asked about well , doesn't the standard say you have to do two cables per ?

So I responded yes , the standards do say you shall run two cables per phase plate , one for voice , one for data . But you got to understand the word shall is a requirement , but standards are voluntary . You are not required necessarily to follow the standards . You don't have to .

Now , if you want to be the best installer , if you want to be the best company , yes , you want to follow the codes , you want to follow the standards . You want to follow the best practices , because that's what the winners do . That's what the winners do .

Yeah , your project is going to cost a little money , but your quality will be much better and that's going to help you a lot . Somebody says do Daisy Chain the same money ? Well , technically , I guess that is kind of a Daisy Chain , isn't it ? Yeah , daisy Chain is something I have to do , a show . Actually I did do a show on topologies .

I talked about Star Buzz and Ring . That was a few years ago . I might have to do a , put out an extra episode next week on the Bigsy and do a repeat on that show . It's going to be kind of funny because you'll see how much I've gotten better at presenting and you'll see the different studio and a bunch of other stuff like that .

So you got to make sure that you understand the codes and the standards . So the best way to do that is to get a copy of the standard , read the standard , participate in standard committees , talk to professionals , attend classes , just be current with it . That's the best thing to do . It really is .

Moving on to the next question how can an estimator accurately forecast a timeline for completing a queuing project . Okay , that's not as hard as it sounds , because when you're creating an estimate , you're creating a bill of materials and a labor values . So you can literally total up all your labor values , and you can .

You'll get the number of hours in the job and then all you got to do is figure out crew assignments . Am I doing a two-person crew , a four-person crew , right , something like that ? And you can , through some calculations , you can figure out oh , this project should take three days , this project should take three weeks , this project should take three years .

Absolutely , I've done . I have done estimates on projects that have spanned multiple years , multiple years , as a matter of fact , 20 years , 20 years , doing an amazing job . Player one is really neglected in the field . Thank you , yes , it is absolutely neglected .

You know , I was talking to somebody just the other day and they said I told them I had a podcast , and they go you have a podcast , what's it about ? And I said Gabling . And they go oh , whatever it's like .

Okay , and this was a guy in the field , he was in the ICT industry , the ICT industry , yeah , so , yeah , you can total all that up and then , and then there are some trips , trips and trips , tips and tricks Can't talk today that you can do it .

So a lot of times , you know customers sometimes will come back and say , hey , can you knock off some money off that estimate ? Yeah , but what I would do is I would find ways to make myself more efficient .

So if I had a project that was running like , say , a month , well , if I went to four tens , I could save a little bit on my setup and tear downtime and drop the price a little bit , but yet I still had the same amount of hours in the project for the actual work itself .

So the price will come down a little bit because I'm really happy , but yet I'm still getting the same stuff . You also need to consider the availability of your workforce , especially if you you know , if you get a larger company , you know you can't always assume that your best crew , your best copper crew , your best fiber crew , can do that project .

They might be on a secure job site somewhere , right , it might be . And so you've got to keep that in mind when you're doing it and also consider the complexity of the job . The complexity , because the more involved it is , there's a certain amount of time you actually can , you can actually look at isn't actually in project management methodologies .

You can see how a project kind of scales up where people kind of it gets better , better and faster and faster as people become more acclimated to the project . The more variables , the more things there are . That takes time . I did a project once , an estimated project once , where we had 35 different types of work area outlets , 35 different types .

You know what . That takes time to learn that and then be efficient with that . Question number eight oh man , I really got to get in gear here . Question number eight what are some time cost saving strategies that can be incorporated ? And then , yes , I already told you one go to four tens . That's one I used to do quite often .

Another one , and I just told this one , I just did this one in the in another group that I'm in and I said use a 2000 foot pull up instead of doing a 1000 foot spool . And here's why Think about this . If you've ever pulled cable you know there's always a little bit left in the box or on the spool after the job .

If you're really good , that number will be below 50 feet , but sometimes it's between 50 and 100 . Sometimes it's between 125 . That's wasted money . Let's say that you have . If you use a 2000 foot pull up , and when you got done you had 125 feet , if you had two 1000 foot pull ups you would have 250 feet left over . You've doubled your waste .

There's always waste in a project . When you estimate , you do all your calculations , you say , okay , I need , I need 10,000 feet of cable . There's a factor and a commonly one uses 10% . Yeah , I just kind of depend on which one I use , depending on the project , but 10% .

So you would take 10,000 , multiply that by 10% , you put in , you would buy 11,000 feet of cable , because you know by the time you got done you'd have 125 feet left on 10 spools . Well , that's a thousand feet of cable that you had to buy . You have to calculate . That is part of the process . Part of the process .

And then another one is optimize your labor allocations . Right , so you know , is it going to be the same crew all the way through , the same two , three , four guys , or are you going to have a copper specialized crew doing the copper and a fiber specialized to do the fiber ?

There's a ways that you can , because they're going to be more efficient , because they've developed the skill sets for that Question , number nine , 638 . How do you handle contingency planning and ICT cable project and estimates To account for unforeseen issues ? Yes , yes , yes , yes . Cost mitigation , risk management yes , that's how you do it . That's how you do it .

So what you do is there's a bunch of different ways and if you have the opportunity to ever take the project management class at Bigsy , I highly recommend it , especially if Chris Hobbs is teaching the class . Chris Hobbs is a fantastic instructor and I highly recommend it .

I highly suggest it if you get the opportunity to do that , because there's certain ways that you can say okay , well , we're going to be doing this project in December in Detroit .

Well , guess what ? What's the weather patterns in Detroit ? What happens when there's so much snow that you can't get to the job site ? What happens ? Maybe not even Okay .

Here's one what if you're doing a project in Miami in January but the cable that you're buying or the cable tray that you're buying , or some product that you're buying is coming from some place that's frozen and they have a big blizzard Guess what .

That's going to delay that product getting built , that product getting shipped , that product arriving on your job site ? You got to think about this cause . Well , what happens is is can you shift the workloads around and do other things until that material come in ? See , if you think about it ahead of time , you're already two steps ahead in the game .

Two steps ahead in that game . So you can actually , and once you start doing that , you can start assigning dollar values to that . You know , okay , we're going to need extra hours , we might have to work . Second shift you might have to need , you might need a specific piece of equipment , right , right , somebody says we'll , we'll call Graybar and start staging .

Yeah , oh , absolutely , I'll try to talk to Graybar when I'm there . Did you know Graybar has a podcast ? Did you know that ? It's called keep the light on . Keep the light on . I met the . I've been on his show and he's been on my show , I think I'm . And I met him at the , the Nica Bixie Summit .

Yeah , and then also , make sure that your project stays on budget . Stays on budget . Last question , man , I got to get this done soon . What are some key considerations when providing an estimate for an ICT cable project ? Return on investment . So this is one of those weird kind of questions .

Right , because the return on the investment means , as for a cable contractor is you're expending labor and material to put a cable system in at somebody's place and you're expecting to get paid a certain dollar value and you hope , when time you get done , doing all the math that you've had , you've got more money left in your bucket than you spent on labor ,

material and other direct costs . The return on investment is a different thing for the actual end user . So the key is , you know , always monitor the productivity of your tax and I know technicians don't like to fill out time sheets that well . You got to break down not just we got to do more than just say I worked eight hours at , you know , project ABC .

What'd you do for those eight hours ? What did you get done ? Did you do you what you really should be doing ? This kind of ties in with with estimating , because you're estimating at the , at the people that you're estimating at the , at the piece level .

You can concrete together , say , okay , well , if you're estimating that you should be able to pull , you know , 10,000 feet of cable a day when you're out on a job site . When you got done , did you get , did you pull , 10,000 feet of cable a day ? If you did , great . If you didn't , why not Understand , why not ?

So that way you can make the adjustment on future projects . So that's that's the key . You got to understand , you got to make sure that you cover all those things and you pay attention so you can make those , those changes . Sometimes the change is good . Sometimes the changes are not so good .

If you are a large company where you might have multiple offices , you're not just a small operation working out of , you know , out of your own one single office .

Your big company that has multiple offices , come together once a year and have meetings and On those meetings you know , talk about , obviously , where you're gonna go in the future , what , what vertical markets you want to chase , but also Also have each office pick one project that went bad and have them go in detail and explain here's the project , here's what we

were asked to do , here's what happened , here's why it went bad , here's the results of that and here's how we fixed it . And then what'll happen is , you know it's like , oh , it's great , I got to tell the people that I made mistakes . Yes , everybody makes mistakes . If you've been in this industry for longer than 13 minutes , you have made a mistake .

In this industry , the key is to learn from that mistake . And if you , when you're doing that as a group setting with other other offices , right , well , you , you're , everybody's being rose up . So now , when , that , when the other office might do a project and they run the same scenario , they are already they .

Well , you know what Chuck and his office had , this issue and that's how they solved it . You're already a step up because you've already you already talked about , you've already had it done , you already have the , the plan configured right . So those were my 10 tests , my 10 estimating questions . Oh , I gotta go back to my chat box . I didn't sorry .

Well , sometimes when I get on a roll , it just happens Luke is in the house , hello , luke , chuck Wilson's in the house . Chuck Wilson's right down the road from me . He says a US individual membership is US individual membership , 1992 , a year . That doesn't sound right . That doesn't say you sure about those numbers , chuck . Let me see here .

Andrew , well , I'm glad to know about the cost associated with testing . Yeah , that's , a lot of people miss that one . A lot of people miss that one . What's a good percentage to add after your estimate ? How do you count for ways ? I've already covered that , michael . So for cable to 10% Labor , I wouldn't go so much because , see , you're a real risk .

And on project is the labor side . That's the unknown . I mean , well , the material is a little bit of an unknown , but labor is the big one . That's when you really got watch out for so . So what I would , typically we do is , you know , 5% for the labor because it's a bigger dollar value , and 10% on my materials .

J who's in the house , greetings from Chicago , chicago , and as long as you don't go for 20 . Yeah , exactly , let me see what's the what's the most here . What's up tech family and j who , again , j who's a really , really good guy . And then Chuck Wilson again took typing in separate the dollar amount From the year oh , 199 .

Yeah , yeah , that he's talking about the big see membership . Sign up for the big see membership . Go to the become , go to the mentorship program , get a quality , quality mentor , quality mentor of . I was actually a mentor the first two years I've . I didn't really got , I haven't really volunteered to be a mentor this year but I probably will .

But you know , you know , so you get people like me are CDs , you know . And , and I said DC , dc said sign up for the mentorship program . It's a great way to get an education . Learn from somebody else's mistakes , that's the key , so you don't have to make those same mistakes , right ? How fantastic is that ? All right , guys .

So don't forget , check out the peo , a consortium Video coming out on Sunday night or Monday night , one of those two nights and let me know how I did on the on , on the editing on that , because , like I said , it was a monster . It was a monster , but I'm enjoying it .

I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes and I hope to see everybody at the big C conference next week

. Again . I'll be there Sunday , monday , tuesday and Wednesday . If you see me walking around , stop me and say hi to me . Some people say I do when I do was talking to I do . I like to talk to people . If you see me talking to somebody else , come up and stand right there with us , right ?

If it's a , if it's a conversation where you know we're talking about some stuff that might not you know , then I'll say can you give us a minute ? But if I don't feel free to stand there , absolutely , and then say hi to me , okay , alrighty , all right . So Michael Michael said he applied as a mentee , nice , nice .

Well , I hope it wouldn't be kind of cool if they signed you to me as your mentor mentee , wouldn't it be kind of cool ? All right , j , who was in Shebaugin ? I don't know what that means . It's a town , I guess . All right , everybody . I'm already way past my 30 minute mark . I am 646 .

I have to go eat dinner and Start to conduct my RCD study group at 7 pm . So until next time , everybody , remember , knowledge is power .