Todd:
Well, welcome back to the podcast. We are incredibly honored today to have Maricopa County Sheriff Paul Penzone with us today. Sheriff, welcome.
Paul Penzone:
Thank you for having me. And it's nice to be on a podcast because I talk with my hands a lot, so now if people don't understand what I'm saying, they can just watch my hands and follow us.
Todd:
Yeah, they can see you now, right?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah.
Todd:
Well, we can all look up your bio. And I mean, everyone I think knows who you are, but maybe tell us a little bit about you and then also something about you that we wouldn't find on your bio, for instance, if we looked at your bio online, but. Maybe where'd you originally come from and how'd you end up in law enforcement?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, what don't people know about me? When you run for political office, people know too much and oftentimes untruthful things about you.
Todd:
There's that.
Paul Penzone:
I grew up in Trenton, New Jersey, came out to Arizona in the late '70s just before junior high. And it's wild now because when I drive around and see how much it's grown since that timeframe, it is a different place, but all for the better. But no, I grew up in an old-fashioned Italian neighborhood, Roman Catholic, all the traditions and everything. Came out here, and my mother eventually went to work at one of the justice courts, oddly and coincidentally enough, to the county. And while I was in high school, to keep me out of trouble, she'd bring me to work with her, and the judge would humor me by allowing me to act as her constable, as his constable, I should say.
Todd:
It's not bad.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. And that was kind of my first introduction to the criminal justice system. And then just decided in high school that I thought that was a path for me. Went to Grand... Excuse me... Went to Glendale Community College, then on to NAU, studied criminal justice and started my career at the Phoenix Police Department.
Todd:
And then you got the bug for political office. And I remember the first time you ran against Sheriff Arpaio.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, I don't know if I would call it a bug. I would say more so I got bit by something that toxified my system to go for politics. And I always tell everyone, because I think it's important, to treat each other with respect. I have no ill will towards the sheriff. We may have different attitudes about how policing or management should be done, but I show him the utmost respect. He held the office for a long time. It was just that I felt that leadership, especially in a time when law enforcement was kind of losing its moral compass in some ways, that leaders have to have humility and be servant leaders and focus more on how do you help the organization thrive, and the men and women within the organization, and make it less about yourself. So it wasn't an interest in politics. It was more so an interest in restoring public safety to a place that people could, in my opinion, feel better about who was wearing the badge and the gun.
Todd:
Well, I do think that made you interesting at the time. I remember when we first met you at the chamber.
Paul Penzone:
I'm less interesting now?
Todd:
No, but at the time-
Paul Penzone:
Jeez.
Todd:
Obviously, the sheriff, national figure.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah.
Todd:
And you had someone-
Paul Penzone:
International.
Todd:
You're right. And someone's coming in saying, "Hey, I want to have a respectful dialogue about law enforcement and the direction we should be going," I think that really caught some people by surprise, because that certainly was a hot area to run in.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, I think I was definitely the beneficiary of circumstances. I think that for the most part, the community wants stability. And if you are an incumbent and you're doing a sound job, it's less likely they want to see change. They don't like turmoil. And unfortunately, in our community, there was a lot of turmoil. There were civil rights violations and lawsuits that were just costing taxpayers considerable amounts of money. And it was time for a new direction in the sheriff's office, and I happened to be the guy at the right place in the right time, I think, in a lot of ways.
Todd:
Yeah. And a lot's changed. Looking back from that first day in office to today, what would you say sort of your top three accomplishments, looking back? I know we would probably all talk about the tent city, but that was something you said we just had to do administratively. I don't know that you would put that in there, but what would be your top three things that you think you accomplished in the time?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, that's a great question. So I would tell you internally what I see that maybe isn't as transparent or obvious for the general public is the change of the culture. And I would best define that by there's a hierarchy in law enforcement in general, just because of rank structure and the military design to it, but we have 3,500 or so employees, civilian, detention officers and sworn, which would be deputies. And there was almost this pecking order that had existed where I think that... I wouldn't say there was a lack of respect, but a lack of recognition, appreciation for each other. So part of it was changing the perspective and the attitude, just having gratitude for each other, and then that resonates on how you treat the community. So first and foremost, trying to redirect the culture in a way that people felt good about going to work.
Todd:
Well, did you get some skeptical people as you walked in the door?
Paul Penzone:
Absolutely.
Todd:
Because, I mean, you talked about that.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. No, there's a saying in law enforcement, they say that the two things that cops hate the most, the way things are and the hidden change. So it's always going to be difficult. My predecessor was there for a quarter of a century, and the majority of the organization had been there for a lengthy period of time under his reign as administration. So to get a different perspective and get them to buy into it, I had to learn about the culture and the people. They had to learn about me, and they had to trust me that I was competent and had a direction that was in their best interest as well as community. So that took time.
Externally, I would tell you just being fundamentally sound, not getting caught up in the bells and whistles of law enforcement having to be above the fold, as they say, every day, especially from the sheriff's office. Just people in the community feeling as though they had confidence that when we showed up things would be done right. So part of it was just getting our employees to just be good at your job. You don't have to be sensational, you don't have to make the news, and you sure as heck shouldn't be focused on getting me on the news. And that would be the third one I would tell you. It's amazing how internally there was this attitude like, okay, how do we get the sheriff on the news to show him off or to make him look good politically? And what I hear most frequently from the community is... And I say tongue in cheek, but this is exactly what they'll say, "Hey Sheriff, thanks for not being on the news." And I say, "You're welcome. Any day of the week. I'm happy to not be on the news." But I think they can feel that if I'm not on the news and things aren't going bad, they're just under control. And that's what we want from law enforcement, to just feel at peace with what's happening.
Todd:
100%. Yeah, you want to know that things are working and that there's not some huge issue that's popping up in the media. Well, I'd like to maybe pivot a little bit because when you talk to businesses around the country... And I'll speak about one retailer that I talked to recently was giving me the stat that in another major metro in the west, 30% of their merchandise was walking out the door untenable. Now, not that way here, but certainly a concern here. Retail theft is a big deal here. Talk to us a little bit about your efforts in that arena and also how can business partner in a more effective way with you on that?
Paul Penzone:
It's a great question. And I would tell you that although we may not feel it to the same severity of other communities, do we have to be careful because we could be right around the corner from that same circumstance. I can remember years ago being in the field in patrol and responding to a box... What do you call them? Box stores or-
Todd:
Big box.
Paul Penzone:
Big box store.
Todd:
Yes.
Paul Penzone:
Yes. And someone had walked out with some pretty expensive merchandise, and we had caught the guy because a citizen had seen him running out. They didn't call us. A citizen who had just pulled up did. We catch the guy with the property and the merchandise and go back at the store, and they said, "We don't want to prosecute." And I was really dumbfounded. I was like, "What do you mean I'm going to prosecute?" They said, "No, no, no. Unless they take money from the till, we don't prosecute because we don't want the liability, and we don't want to be tied up in court." And it didn't sit well with me because what we're doing is we're setting a behavioral pattern that criminals will learn from, and they'll know I can go take property from there and they're not going to do anything about it. And then the expenses, the losses fall back on the consumer.
So I would tell you it's both of our responsibilities. It is the companies as well as law enforcements to set a standard for consequences, accountability and how we expect our community to behave, because criminals look for easy opportunities. And if we send a message that there's not going to be a consequence, they're going to take advantage of it. So when I say it could be right around the corner, I get the fears. I get the concerns, liability, and is the loss worth less to us than the potential of being sued for something bad happening? But who do you want to be as a society? And we have to be a society that has order and accountability, in my opinion.
Todd:
When we think about retail theft, I always thought that some kid made some bad decisions that went in and took a chainsaw out of a Home Depot. I'm told that's actually not necessarily the case.
Paul Penzone:
Far more sophisticated.
Todd:
It's more of organized rings. Is that correct?
Paul Penzone:
It is. It is. And what you're seeing now is almost like gangbusters. You will see a group. And when we talk about organized, I think people want it to be so structured that they think it's like a business. It's not. It could just be a small faction of people, five to 10 people, who work collectively together, and they know that they can overwhelm a consumer or a store and take thousands of dollars worth of merchandise, get pennies on the dollar when they turn and sell it, but it's still profitable for them at no cost. And that is one of those situations where when you see it occurring in other cities, we have to be really proactive, we in law enforcement. We have to give the confidence to the business owner that if they trust in us, call on us and stand against that, that we are going to serve their best interest. So a big part of it is ours, but the other part of it is just trust is two-way. We're going to earn your trust hopefully, but we need you to trust in us to make that call. But absolutely it has become an institution in a practice where it's organized crime.
Todd:
And to your point, it's a two-way street. So if law enforcement's willing to step up, we as business owners have to step up as well and maybe not do the most expeditious thing, which is to just look the other way and maybe close a business or a location, but to actually fight it.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. And a lot of it are steps that can be taken that are preventive in nature, but the challenges with those is oftentimes it creates inconvenience for the consumer. You start putting the locks and the bands through leather jackets, or you have monitors on everything that come at a cost, but to some extent there'll be deterrence, it is where's the balance for you as a business owner that you feel comfortable in protecting your interests? This is your hard work, and these are dollars for you, but you understand that for your consumer, the environment might be a little bit less convenient, but the convenience is intended to keep pricing down, because at the end of the day, everyone says why does it matter to me? It matters that if you're slightly inconvenienced, but you're paying less for that product because it's not walking out of the store, it's being purchased before it leaves the store, then I see a personal benefit. I go, okay, it's not so bad. But I think if consumers don't understand what the business owner is up against, then all they care about is, hey, this is inconvenient. I'm going to shop elsewhere.
Todd:
I don't want to wait the two minutes before someone unlocks this. I mean, that's a good point?
Paul Penzone:
And who would've thought that razor blades would be locked up?
Todd:
Good point.
Paul Penzone:
But how expensive are they?
Todd:
Yeah, absolutely. It's true.
Paul Penzone:
And you got to shave twice.
Todd:
I shave up top and on the face.
Paul Penzone:
That's the problem here. It's killing me.
Todd:
And I think to your point, it's point well taken that for consumers, they're feeling spite. So businesses might say, well, it's easier just to say we're going to take that hit, but at the end of the day, they might be losing customers if they have to raise prices.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, yeah. It all-
Todd:
It's a tough one.
Paul Penzone:
Slides down to the consumer eventually. I don't know.
Todd:
Well, let's switch gears a little bit. I know there's definitely been a lot in the news about Title 42. Obviously, the governor made some announcements. I know you've spoken to the press. Clearly a big change in terms of the way we're addressing immigration or any kind of amnesty for folks. Talk to us about how you're involved and what you're doing in Maricopa County as it relates to that change.
Paul Penzone:
Well, if I might, could I flip the script and ask you when you... I don't know how much of what I spoke about you heard, but what did you take from what you heard relative to myself or law enforcement representing the concern with that issue?
Todd:
Well, I think the law enforcement take I heard was this is more of a federal issue, and so we have to react to whatever happens at the federal level. And that seems to be the gist of it. But-
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, so our office, we're under two federal court orders because of my predecessor specifically for abuses due to, we'll say immigration enforcement. People, their civil rights were being violated. There was racial profiling, a lot of things that cost the community a lot of money and has cost our organization a lot of resources. So we are prohibited from being involved in any way. My message was just this... To the federal government, because it is not them and us. We are collectively part-
Todd:
Sure.
Paul Penzone:
Or an extension of the federal government, even the community... is we need to see that immigration reform in border security. And when I say border security, that doesn't mean necessarily a wall. It just means how do we do a better job of addressing the free pass that some get at our borders. They can coexist, we can be a safe, sound, secure nation, and we can accommodate people who want to lawfully enter for whatever intentions, as long as it's not criminal. If it is citizenship or job opportunities or to visit, whatever it may be, you have to abide by the laws. So all I was trying to emphasize is this can has been kicked down the road far too long. I don't expect us to resolve it overnight, but we should have a six-month, one-year, three-year, five-year, 10-year plan that each party agrees to, our community agrees to, Congress and Senate agree to. Stop being so selfish and stop being negligent when it comes to your responsibility, because first and foremost, in my opinion, no community and no nation can thrive if we're not safe.
If we are safe economically, educationally, health wise, all the other elements that are the things that cause a community to thrive or a nation to thrive have a better opportunity because they're on a strong foundation. If we're unsafe, it doesn't matter what we have to offer, we will become less appealing as a nation to our own community and citizens, let alone others from other nations.
Todd:
Well, and I think what you're saying seems to be echoing everywhere, and people I've talked to, is let's just get it done. We've been bickering about this since the Reagan years.
Paul Penzone:
And I find... And this will be an insult, and I don't mean for it to, but policy-makers oftentimes are the least qualified to truly understand the issue and the first to put pen to paper on what they're writing to do about it. So just call on those who truly are the subject matter experts that are dealing with it on an everyday basis and at least allow us to give you counsel, because when I see legislation written that affects law enforcement and we were never consulted on it, it frustrates me greatly, because oftentimes there are just blind spots that you may be well-intended, but you're ill-equipped to do what's best for the community and to understand our needs when we're moving in that direction. So it can be very comprehensive. Don't be so shortsighted that you can't call on us for counsel.
Todd:
Oh, agreed. And I think Senator Sinema was just here with folks from both sides of the caucus, or both caucuses, to look at that because you're from Ohio. It's hard to really understand what's happening here and to try and formulate a solution. So I absolutely agree with that. And I hate that I'm focusing on negative things.
Paul Penzone:
I don't think they're negative. I think they're just real issues of concern for our community. And my mother passed a few years ago, but I'm going to invoke her and tell you what she'd say all the time. She'd say, "Honey, I'd see you on the news." Obviously, I'm her son. She can call me honey. "You never smile." I say, "Because, Mom, I have to talk about the most devastating things that go on in society. I'm in law enforcement. You want to see me smile, then I'll find a different profession where we get to focus on the joyful things, but unfortunately in law enforcement we deal with the difficult things."
Todd:
You do. So I won't feel bad when I mention fentanyl. And fentanyl obviously is a problem for obviously people who are taking it and sometimes young kids, but first responders, I mean, what a significant danger to first responders and then the community at large. Maybe speak to that a little bit.
Paul Penzone:
So there's two lanes in this. The first and foremost is how do we address it on, we'll say the law of the enforcement side of it to reduce the challenges that we're seeing because the other side of the coin is the public health. So first responders, deputies in the street and officers aren't just investigating illegal possession of fentanyl. They are delivering Narcan and doing CPR and all kinds of lifesaving measures because of the high volume of overdoses. They are jeopardizing their own safety when they encounter what could potentially be fentanyl powder or something else that could jeopardize their own safety. So the complexities of the role on that side are extreme. And then you look inside the jails where the detention officers and correction officers work, and inmate populations are primarily those who have committed crimes, convicted of crimes. Some may be pending their trial and not yet convicted, but the percentage of those that have an alcohol or substance abuse problem is extremely high, which means they're going to be creative in ways to try to bring drugs into the jail system.
So no different. Not only are we dealing with the behavioral patterns that could be violent in nature because of drugs and drug overdoses, but we are reviving life, delivering Narcan, CPR. And oftentimes, and I can tell you firsthand, we have had inmates who have attempted suicide and been unsuccessful, which is odd to say because it seems like, well, you're alive, so that's a success. But in interviewing them post their attempt, they'll say, "The pain of the withdrawal from fentanyl is so painful and severe, I would rather take my own life." So that tells you the desperation. So it's a complex issue with complex solution, which is education, recovery, rehabilitation, enforcement, prosecution and consequences. We have to look at it from all complexities and say how are we going to stifle this issue?
Todd:
And how do you keep your deputies safe? I mean, to your point, they're having to administer lifesaving measures to people that could have this on their body and certainly could pose a huge danger to them. How are they staying safe?
Paul Penzone:
Well, first and foremost it is how can we train and equip them to be prepared to keep themselves safe first when trying to provide health needs or safety for others? The other part of it is it takes a toll. Imagine being a detention officer and in any timeframe having to revive two or three people in the period of a month or two. They go home with that. They carry that with them. And if one person was lost in that process, even though it may seem like an unknown commodity, they may have been around this inmate and got to know them in some context while serving and dealing with their care and custody. These are real people. So we have a wellness division where we try to be there to care for our own employees to make sure they're mentally well, physically well, that every need that they have is cared for also so that when they go to work and try to care for the community, they're equipped to do so. And it is a full-time commitment.
Todd:
Absolutely. One of the other phenomenon that as I talk to colleagues around the country that they've seen a significant increase, especially after COVID, was homelessness. We saw that here, I think, between 2020 and 2022, about a 23% increase in homelessness. And obviously there are a lot of factors for that that you don't control, but how are you and the deputies dealing with that issue?
Paul Penzone:
Right now, the biggest challenge falls inside the walls of our jails. We're seeing the homeless population has always been a portion of the incarcerated population. It seems as though that number is climbing at a steady pace because when someone is homeless, living on the street, doesn't have employment, maybe has mental health or drug addiction, those are all contributors to desperation, and desperation leads to behaviors that are in conflict with the law. Doesn't mean they're always committing crimes, but listen, if you haven't eaten for a week, you're going to steal something to eat, right? You are an opportunist when it comes to how to survive. And once you cross that threshold that you become comfortable with breaking the law to survive, if that is your justification in your mind, it becomes easier each time. So we're caring for a population that if we found another way to address it, maybe they would be law-abiding and not breaking the law.
So that's just another aspect, no different than COVID was where we-
Todd:
Sure.
Paul Penzone:
Had to do public health service, drug addiction. It's another area that suddenly we have to become experts in. And there comes a breakpoint. There comes a point that we have to say enough is enough. Law enforcement can't be there to solve all of society's ills. We have to find other resources to mitigate that before they come through our doors or before we respond to a call for service. Doesn't mean we won't. Our deputies and our detention officers are very good at what they do, and they're very committed. And as the sheriff, whatever responsibility you throw at me, we're going to take it on. I mean, look at elections. Who would've thought that we would be so highly invested in protecting people, protecting democracy, protecting elected officials because of the vitriol that's occurring? So I think in some ways it's apple and oranges, but it's the same demand on law enforcement resources.
Todd:
Well, I want to come back to elections, but as it relates to homeless people that would have addiction issues or mental health issues, clearly, yeah, that's not your job. Are there the resources in Maricopa County for those folks then once they're through your system?
Paul Penzone:
I don't believe so. I think we're trying to find a better way that once they're... Because when they're in our custody, they're going to get services they wouldn't get elsewhere, medical, mental health. They're getting fed every day. They're getting clothed. All these fundamental things that just keep people going forward they get inside the jail system. It doesn't mean it should be a place that they exist or that we see that as a solution. It's not. But when they leave, how do we bridge them with NGOs who can maybe continue their care if their care involves keeping them stable? A person who has mental illness and suddenly they come to our jail and they're cared for will see improvement, but when they leave, they'll see just an immediate decline because those services are no longer available. So we have to do more, we being society, to connect inmates that are in need of certain services with NGOs or other providers so then when they leave, they're cared for and they don't come back.
I don't think everyone understands how expensive incarceration is. And it comes at such a cost that we really have to make decision, how can we better solve this problem? It doesn't mean criminals should get a pass. It doesn't mean that-
Todd:
Sure.
Paul Penzone:
We should ever let a criminal walk the streets. They need to be inside our jails. But for those that kind of fall in that space where maybe there are other factors, what can we do to resolve it so that taxpayers aren't paying to keep people in jail that otherwise could be productive in society?
Todd:
Well, and the issue of recidivism is a huge one. And I think that's one that hopefully there's a lot of room to work on.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. No, I believe there is, and I believe we're making progress.
Todd:
So I guess that takes me to criminal justice reform. Do you think there are things that we can do in the system for people that have gone through the system or and have paid a price and we want to then make them active members of society? Are there things that you think we should be doing for those peoples to make sure that they don't go back into your system?
Paul Penzone:
Absolutely. I mean, we've seen great success in drug recovery programs in our jail to reduce recidivism, work programs, things to help people be equipped to manage their aggression and their emotions so they're less apt to become... And I'm not talking about the bad person that is just a predator in our community.
Todd:
Sure.
Paul Penzone:
I'm talking about someone who maybe had an alcohol problem or a drug problem and then it contributes to their inability to manage their emotions and suddenly they act in an inappropriate and violent way. There must be consequences. But when it comes to criminal justice reform, where I think sometimes we can lose sight is that we think everyone can be reformed, and we become lax in our belief that consequences are necessary. And suddenly we want to cuddle or find an excuse for why it occurred as opposed to holding people accountable to their behavior. I think that criminal justice reform has great potential and value, as long as we continue to be disciplined in holding people accountable for behaviors that are unacceptable, that are harmful to others and that are in conflict with our laws.
I hear probably most often from, well, sometimes the activist communities that they want me to stop enforcing certain laws because they feel like they're detrimental. And I say, no, no, no, no. I should never be selective and subject in how I enforce the laws. If you don't believe a law is appropriate, then work with legislators to take it off the books or to write a more effective one. But when it comes to my profession, break the law, we hold you accountable, and then we leave to the judicial system to determine what the outcome should be, the consequence. But don't think that telling me to stop doing something is a solution because you don't like a certain law how it affects the community.
Todd:
That's certainly the purview of the legislature.
Paul Penzone:
Absolutely.
Todd:
And if that's changed, then you'll change the way you look at this.
Paul Penzone:
And we have three branches of government, and that's for a reason, with a purpose.
Todd:
Absolutely. No, thank you for that. So you touched on the election. Yeah, it's hard to imagine how things have changed in our elections, starting with the days leading up to the elections and people trying to put ballots in ballot boxes and feeling threatened all the way through. Candidates... I think there was a big article about Bill Gates recently and what happened to him and his family. Yeah, I mean, hard to imagine targeting people's families. Talk to us a little bit about that experience. Obviously, you and your deputies had to be a part of protecting people as they went to vote and then afterwards protecting candidates.
Paul Penzone:
And it goes further back. It actually goes back to 2020, the presidential election. We saw an influx of people, not even from our own community, from all over the country who came to Arizona because suddenly we were a swing state and we were critical to the presidential outcome. And people wanted to come here and make accusations that they didn't trust our process and they questioned their results. And it was a powder cake. It had the potential for something really bad to occur. We were reactionary then. We didn't see it coming. No one did. We didn't expect it, but we really quickly geared up and did everything we could to deescalate the challenge. Suddenly then we go to a midterm, and everybody on the heels of that one started behaving in a way that was deemed to be acceptable. It really isn't. It's not okay to threaten someone's life or their family. It's not okay to intimidate a person from voting. It's not okay to believe that you are the law and you get to make up the rules and treat people in a certain way because you believe that potentially they could be breaking the law.
We had to get out in front of that. We had dropbox sites, polling sites at the recorder's office with elected officials. Bill Gates is a colleague of mine. He's a supervisor who is a man of high integrity, and he's a family man, and he believes in doing what's right. You may not agree with his decisions. I don't always agree with his decisions, but I don't question his motives. And the idea that you can as an individual, because you don't like the outcome of the election, threaten him or his family or anyone else's for that matter is not only an inappropriate. It is unlawful. And we're going to protect him and others to include the general population from that type of bullying and vitriol and just unlawful behavior.
I was with him the night that we saw some things that were threats against his family and his children. And I was the one who looked him in the eye because I know he took a lot of... People questioned or criticized it. I said, "Bill, whether you like it or not tonight, you're going to stay somewhere else. You're not staying at home-
Todd:
Of course.
Paul Penzone:
"Because of course I don't want to see you or your family harmed until we get our arms around it." And it's not like he wanted to be out of his house. He stood tall, and he said, "I think I'm okay, Paul." And I said, "You may think you're okay, Bill, but I'm just asking you to trust me, to trust me that I just want you for the time being to stay somewhere else tonight." And it became a story. And people to some extent try to question or treat it like he was running. He never ran. But it takes a toll. It takes a toll on a good man or a good woman who's just trying to do right by their community, and they serve a very difficult job during a time there's so much political unrest that bad behaviors become acceptable, and it's not.
Todd:
I'm assuming you weren't immune.
Paul Penzone:
No. Listen, I've had mine. And usually it gets worse during election cycles, but when you have a jail that a hundred thousand inmates go through every year, there's another aspect of it also. My family has learned to be thick-skinned and tough on it. I take extreme measures to protect my own family. And I find it disgusting when I see opponents or other people in politics take liberties and say things and invoke my own family or me in a way that years ago would've been deemed just unacceptable. It was taboo. Now all of a sudden it's not. But make no mistake about it, don't confuse kindness with weakness. You come after me and my family, and you're going to find out a whole different story. And I don't say it like I'm trying to beat my chest with bravado. I got into this to serve people, and if you think you're going to make me or my family a target, you're foolish.
Todd:
Well, and certainly the question is can we put the genie back in the bottle? What are your thoughts? I mean, have we just passed the point of no return? Or are there enough people out there like yourself and Bill Gates who say we can disagree with each other, and you clearly have, but that doesn't mean that we have to invoke violence or vigilante justice? Can we put that back the way it was?
Paul Penzone:
I believe that we can, but it requires a commitment, a discipline that says that every day we practice what we preach. My staff has heard me say this too frequently, and maybe some of the public have. I say, "You teach people how to treat you." Why do you think I sent so many resources to the recorder's office for this last election and throughout the community? Because I want to make sure that everybody knew there was a line in the sand and you were not going to cross it. And it was actually setting the tone for the next election and the one to follow, because if we don't consistently practice that, then people will think that we're vulnerable and weak. And we saw that on January 6th. There was a reporter from France who spoke with me at the last election, and she said, "We look at America as the shining light on the hill that leads the world. Is what we're seeing normal?" And I said, "It's not, but if we don't fight against it, we'll become the new norm, and that's unacceptable."
So putting the genie back in the bottle is not easy. It will take time. But every day you let someone misbehave without a accountability, it means the next person up thinks it's going to be a lot easier for them to do the same thing.
Todd:
You bet. Absolutely. I think one of the hallmarks of your administration with business is your door's always open. If there's a concern, a question, or if we have some issue that we need to deal with, you and your office have been incredibly responsive. What about the rest of the community? How do you work with other community organizations or activists for that matter?
Paul Penzone:
Just like this, I feel that you have to be reasonable with it. It's not like you'd have to duplicate me 57 times or replicate me 57 times to be everywhere, but I try really hard to make sure that our office is always... We are public servants, first and foremost... always available, do the best that we can to help you resolve an issue, to answer your questions, to agree to disagree when necessary, and to be reasonable about what you should expect from law enforcement. I find it interesting... And I am going to tell you this with maybe a little bit of bragging on myself, which I don't like to do... I find it offensive when I see my colleagues in any other space or place in leadership or elected officials who are unwilling to meet people where they are and answer difficult questions.
I don't work off of a script, at least I seldom do. And I feel it's my job if it's about law enforcement to answer to you, and I try really hard to do that. I just would like to see other colleagues behave the same way and not lead from a silo, not hide from the public because you're afraid of criticism or afraid of opposition, as long as that opposition is respectful and that it is constructive in nature. So when it comes to working with other organizations, I see law enforcement as we do public safety, but there's a lot of lanes outside of that that are opportunities, working with nonprofits, working on issues that affect children and affect our schools and affect mentally ill or those with drug addiction. I'd love to see us solve the problem before people come through our doors of the jail. So we commit. We try really hard to be available in all spaces and places when it's appropriate.
Todd:
And does that cooperation extent of Phoenix PD, DPS, the feds? Is there a good communications channel between the agencies?
Paul Penzone:
I'd say it's great.
Todd:
Good.
Paul Penzone:
Not just our agency, but just in this community in general. And I've had the chance to travel around the country in different capacities and work with other agencies and other communities. Arizona's unique. It's unique that the law enforcement community... And some people are like, well, that's a thin blue line." No, no, no. I'm not talking... That's nonsense. I'm not saying that we don't have circumstances where law enforcement behaves and we have to hold ourselves accountable, but when it comes to multi-jurisdictional cooperation and a seamless commitment to serve our community at large, I think that we set the example for the nation. In Maricopa County, you can drive three miles and go through four jurisdictions. So we have to be cohesive, we have to have a good partnership, and we have to at times, again, agree to disagree and hold each other accountable. But just the other day, I called on Phoenix PD to take an investigation on our behalf because we'd participated in the capacity where I felt like it required objectivity and the community would only feel comfortable with it if someone else took the lead on it. So we handed off to Phoenix and said, "You investigate this and make sure that we did everything that we should have. And I'm confident we did. But those are the types of moments that show that you have trust and collaboration.
Todd:
Doggone TV where the other jurisdiction shows up, and-
Paul Penzone:
It's ours.
Todd:
Yeah, exactly.
Paul Penzone:
Get off our turf. I always laugh when I see that. The feds show up-
Todd:
Too much TV.
Paul Penzone:
[Inaudible 00:32:08] now. Yeah, not so much.
Todd:
I got to ask, how is AI going to play a role in law enforcement going forward? Or is it still years away?
Paul Penzone:
Well, there'll be benefits to it, and there'll be detriments, much like the internet. There'll be aspects of it that will probably enhance our ability through technology to solve crimes, to identify suspects, to do a lot of things that when we went from fingerprints to DNA, there's always the next piece of science that helps us find that bad guy or stifle that crime. But at the same time, criminals spend their days determining how can I use AI to my advantage to commit crime, to steal an identity and to pose as another person and to use technology in a way that I can breach into someone's space and place and take their money when they least expect it? So I think that if we don't have structure in it and we don't have responsible people at the helm on how it's used and executed, then it'll be a big problem, because they'll be chasing it. But I also see an upside to it. Then it's like social network. It's like the internet. It could be used for so much good, but oftentimes it's used for so much bad. We suddenly have people that are empowered to sit on a keyboard and just do harm to people, to their reputation and to their hard work with no accountability. And I think AI can, on a much broader scale, do the same thing to us.
Todd:
Well, let's hope there's more good than bad.
Paul Penzone:
Starts with us though.
Todd:
That's true. Starts with us.
Paul Penzone:
It starts with every one of us.
Todd:
Well, speaking of good, and I mean this only from your work, but when we first became acquainted when you were a candidate, or obviously even before that, you were very involved in human trafficking. That was something that you felt very passionate about, and I think that's continued. Is that something where you're still really engaged?
Paul Penzone:
Absolutely. Now we train our detention officers to be more cognizant of understanding indicators of the inmate population, because we may have a woman who comes to jail for whatever crime, and they may be a victim of human trafficking and not even cognizant of it. It was just their life cycle and they were in a space and they became addicted to drugs and suddenly they were doing something to make money off of it. Then suddenly a John came in... Or excuse me... a pimp came into place and made money off of them. So we want our detention officers to be empathetic and to help people find services while in our custody, if women have been victims of sex trafficking and with human trafficking. And the same thing with our deputies in the street, trying to train them to better understand that if they respond to a call, a person may be a suspect or start out as a suspect in a circumstance, and suddenly there's a turn in the road and you realize they themselves are also a victim. And how do you make sure that you investigate it further? How do we make sure that while they're in our custody we connect them with services to get them counseling or the needs that they leave so when they leave they're not going back out to the street and-
Todd:
Don't miss those clues.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, yeah, but it's not easy. Are we as good at it as I would like? Not because we're not trying, but just because it's such a big monster to tackle. But we have to be focused on it. We work with the McCain Institute on a regular basis, and they've provided education for us. Even on tablets in the jails we have information for women in our custody so that they can actually go through and learn things to better address their needs and find help when they leave.
Todd:
No. Well, and I think that says so much about you. I mean, this was an issue for you way before you were in the sheriff's office and continues to be. So I want to thank you for that one. And thank you for spending so much time with us. We're going to do a quick lightning round.
Paul Penzone:
Uh-oh.
Todd:
Although, what was the fact... I didn't think I got it... the facts about Paul Penzone that people generally know and that is not on your bio?
Paul Penzone:
Let's see. What do people not know about me? Like I said, they know so much. I'll tell you just some of my hobbies. We do travel quite a bit, my wife and I. I like to cook a lot.
Todd:
What's your best thing that you make?
Paul Penzone:
I'm pretty good at making pasta sauce. Absolutely.
Todd:
Really?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. I mean, maybe it's in the blood-
Todd:
So no can?
Paul Penzone:
No. Please. It's got to come from all, yeah, fresh products. But I cook quite frequently, and I even... This is going to be... I got tomato garden, and we have all kinds of fruit trees and stuff. So I'm like one of those old... Like I said, I grew up in Trent, New Jersey. And in my grandmother's backyard if you walked out there, it was just filled with tomatoes, tomato plants. So I'm one of those old souls, old school Italian guys that I like cooking and I like planting stuff.
Todd:
Well, I have friends from Jersey. They don't-
Paul Penzone:
Fake trees.
Todd:
They don't call it tomato sauce. They call it gravy.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, they call it gravy.
Todd:
Is that correct?
Paul Penzone:
Sunday gravy. Absolutely.
Todd:
Okay, see?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah.
Todd:
All right, so if somebody wants to know from you the most important ingredient... Obviously tomatoes... but the most important ingredient in a good pasta sauce is-
Paul Penzone:
Well, I think that one of the things that I do is I give it a little bit of flavor by chopping up an onion, and I'll cook the onion down first, and I'll even remove some of the onion so it's not too much. And then you just got to make sure that you get good tomatoes. At the end of the day, if you don't have a good product, you're not going to have good gravy.
Todd:
That's why you grow your own.
Paul Penzone:
So yeah, yeah.
Todd:
Excellent. Okay. Well, lightning round really quick. So first job, what was your first job? And I don't mean professional job. First job?
Paul Penzone:
Garcia's Mexican Restaurant as a busboy.
Todd:
Busboy?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah.
Todd:
And what did you learn?
Paul Penzone:
I worked in that industry for a long time because I went from there to work at The Point Resort. And you name it, I worked in room service. I was a valet. I worked in the ballroom. When you work in that industry, it is all about taking care of people and solving problems. And I think that translated to being in law enforcement where you needed to learn to communicate. They can say the customer's always right, but at least understand the customer's needs. So if you're dealing with a victim, you're dealing with a witness, you're dealing with a suspect, you have to be a good listener. So I would tell you I learned that in that industry. And it's hard work.
Todd:
Such a good point.
Paul Penzone:
Get up early and work late.
Todd:
Well, that is such a good point. And every time I see someone yelling at a person at the airport that has no control over the flight, I'm like you probably never worked in-
Paul Penzone:
Well, how many events-
Todd:
In customer service, right?
Paul Penzone:
Do you and I go to where there are people that got up early to set the tables-
Todd:
Yes.
Paul Penzone:
And make up everything else? And I think it's important to show gratitude.
Todd:
Yes.
Paul Penzone:
You take for granted the food shows up, and you go, oh, this is good, but you didn't say thank you to the person-
Todd:
Always say thank you.
Paul Penzone:
Who put the water in your cup and fed you.
Todd:
100%. Thank you. So obviously you have an incredible job, but dream job, if you could have any job?
Paul Penzone:
I think I'm in it, buddy. I never expected-
Todd:
FBI director? Come on.
Paul Penzone:
Listen, you know what? That'd be pretty-
Todd:
CIA director?
Paul Penzone:
Yeah, those are all pretty appealing. Absolutely.
Todd:
Right?
Paul Penzone:
Absolutely.
Todd:
See?
Paul Penzone:
Like I said, I'm very much a man of faith. And I say if you don't believe in God, just look at my path of becoming sheriff. You know his hand's on it because I'm so fortunate and privileged, but I don't know that I have a dream job. But yeah, I'll be President of the United States if-
Todd:
Yeah, there we go.
Paul Penzone:
You want. I'll tell you this, I'll take the politics out of it, and I'll be-
Todd:
There you go.
Paul Penzone:
More disciplined in X's and O's.
Todd:
Excellent. And watch out, Putin.
Paul Penzone:
Yeah. I'm going to go and go big.
Todd:
Okay. And then the last question. Ron Howard calls you. He's like, "We're going to make the Paul Penzone movie." What's the title?
Paul Penzone:
Jersey Boy.
Todd:
I mean, could it be any more perfect? Thank you, my friend. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for all the work you do in our community, and hope we have you back very soon.
Paul Penzone:
You're a good man, Todd. Thank you for the time, buddy.
Todd:
Thank you.