Todd Sanders: 00:00 Well, welcome to the Let's Talk Business Phoenix podcast. Today, we are absolutely thrilled to have Dr. Andi Fourlis, who is the superintendent of Mesa Public Schools, I think the largest school system in the state. Welcome and thanks for being with us.
Andi Fourlis: 00:16 Thank you. I'm honored to be here with you.
Todd Sanders: 00:18 Well, it's such a pleasure and we've had, I think, a few years of being able to work with you and your team and I think really evolved what we're doing as far as preparing kids, or I should say young adults, for college and career, but why don't we start a little bit personally with you. I encourage you all to read Dr. Fourlis's bio. It's very impressive, but let's learn something about you that's not on your bio. Tell us something that we wouldn't find on your bio.
Andi Fourlis: 00:45 Oh my goodness. I started my educational career in Mesa Public Schools. I was raised by a single mom and she could afford a little apartment in Mesa and we rode our bikes. She dropped us off in the morning and she was a reporter, her first big girl job at the Mesa Tribune.
Todd Sanders: 01:06 I remember that. Absolutely.
Andi Fourlis: 01:06 Yeah. So most people don't know that, that I started my educational career right in Mesa.
Todd Sanders: 01:10 We're hearing a lot about challenges in education, currently hearing about a shortage of teachers. What drove you to go into the field?
Andi Fourlis: 01:19 Well, this is an interesting story, might be a little long.
Todd Sanders: 01:23 That's okay. We want to hear it.
Andi Fourlis: 01:23 Okay. Well, when I was a little girl, every opportunity that I had, I wanted to play school, whether it was with my dolls or whether it was at the grocery store and I would arrange apples and oranges and that was my classroom. So I was always figuring out a way to play school. Well, I think I was driving my mom crazy. And so she found out, can we get this kid in school and not wait for my December birthday? So we got the great news that I could start kindergarten when I was four. And my mom came home and said, "Okay, you're going to be able to go to school." So I was so ready and I had my outfit ready. I had my backpack ready. I had my lunch box ready, because I was going to school. This was going to be the real thing. So when my mom picked me up after the first day of kindergarten, she picked me up and she could tell I was not at all happy.
Andi Fourlis: 02:10 And she said, "So how was it? Was it the best day ever?" And I said, "It was the worst day ever and I'm never going back." And she said, "Why?" I said, "Mom, you didn't tell me I wasn't going to be the teacher." So my life started off saying I was going to be a teacher. And so I really understood that school was a great place for me. And once I realized that I could learn something as the student, not just to be the teacher, I have always found success in school.
Andi Fourlis: 02:39 School spoke to me. It was a place I felt safe. It was a place where I could share my ideas when I couldn't share my ideas, it created a lot of frustration. So I always thought about someday, I'm going to be the teacher that allows kids to share their ideas, to pursue those ideas and think a little differently about what schooling can be, so that was my motivation way back 50 years ago.
Todd Sanders: 03:01 Well, and that's a great story. You're one of the lucky few who always knew what you were going to do when you decided that you were going to leave the house and be a grown-up. So mentioning the teacher shortage, what's changed in the profession from that time to today, if anything? Have things changed that much?
Andi Fourlis: 03:18 Oh, a significant change. So when I started teaching in 1991, if I think about the challenges that I faced as a teacher compared to what our teachers are facing every single day, they are radically different. I think that what has happened is over time, schools have served as the hearts of communities, but what has changed over time is a change in family structure, a change in how we work, how we live, how we play, the demands on our children, the fast-paced life that they have. That has all changed in our communities, which means it's also changed in every single classroom. So our teachers are responding to the various needs that students have, not just academically and behaviorally. As a teacher, you know that you're going to work with academics and behavior. I don't think as a teacher I ever understood the power of working on the emotional wellness of our profession, as well as our students. I think that's the biggest change.
Todd Sanders: 04:12 And it is significant. And I think we can't talk about change without reflecting on the pandemic. And I think schools, again, front and center on that probably in many more ways than we can imagine. Talk to us a little bit about that in terms of how you weathered that and what changes came as a result of that time.
Andi Fourlis: 04:34 Well, I became the superintendent July 1, 2020. So I only know COVID. I only know superintendenting through COVID and it was the hardest time in my career. I think that what happened during COVID, and we've learned a lot from this, what happened throughout COVID is we quickly digitized the American place called school. We sent it into the homes of America and we asked our parents and loved ones to wrap around students and help to educate them at home.
Andi Fourlis: 05:06 And then what happened was that school became very, very visible and we were not using our very best teaching all of the time. This became crisis teaching for teachers. How can we quickly provide content in the most accessible ways in many communities that had not ever had access? So we were bridging all of these gaps. So now all of a sudden, we're sending the American schooling system into homes. We are now making our work very visible and our community saw where the holes are in our public education system. And so we have a responsibility and a sense of urgency to close up those holes, that there are many gaps in what we provide our children.
Todd Sanders: 05:50 You're right. I mean, it became very clear as the water receded that, for instance, I know we had a shortage of about a hundred thousand laptops for kids to be able learn at home. Clearly, a lot of learning and I can imagine for you, it had to be an interesting time to be a leader, but that's where you test your leaders, right? Not when things are good. Clearly, very difficult, but did we take away any good things from that time that we're using today?
Andi Fourlis: 06:17 Oh, absolutely. I think as an educational industry, we are known for being slow to change. COVID taught us we can change a whole lot faster than we ever thought that we could. We can be more nimble. We can be more adaptive. We can respond to personalization faster than we ever thought that we could. It's also helping us to understand what is most important in the schooling of our children, of our young people. What is most important to them? What's most important to their families? It's making us think differently about seat time in our high schools. Do you need 180 days to demonstrate that you understand English one? Can you demonstrate that in new and different ways?
Andi Fourlis: 06:53 COVID also taught us that our kids are far more tech savvy than we ever could imagine. Now they may not be tech savvy in all of our standards that we want them to do, but they're very adept at accessing information. And so we need to think about how do we help them understand to curate the information, making sure that it is credible and that it is useful information. And how do we use information for good versus working against our communities?
Todd Sanders: 07:19 Well, it's such a good point and especially the point about kids. I think we underestimate how comfortable they are and probably harder for the parents to make that switch in terms of jobs than it was for these kids to transition. And hopefully, we can use that now going forward. So recently, within the last few years, the Phoenix Chamber Foundation through ElevateEd started a partnership with Mesa Public Schools to work together and really start to think about how we can do the right thing by kids in terms of college and career and put them in the right spot. What drove you to decide that that was the right direction for Mesa Public Schools?
Andi Fourlis: 08:01 Well, as we talked about COVID, one of the things that we also learned is that school must be relevant. And so this partnership with ElevateEd has increased relevancy for our students and intentionality around the work we do as educators to better support our students. So when we're thinking about high demand, high wage jobs, we need to think about how do we align our systems so that our students have access to those high wage, high demand jobs, and that we are providing as many learning opportunities, not just in our classrooms, but also partnering with business through work-based learning experiences, job shadowing, internships, and so on. We can't wait for our kids to decide what they're going to do and say, "Well, once you graduate from high school, then you start thinking about it." That's too late in today's world. And so we have to get them on a pathway where they see opportunity for a lifestyle and a career that will bring them joy, but will also allow them to be self-sufficient in this world.
Todd Sanders: 09:02 It is so true. Thirty years ago, much different world in terms of how you thought about college and career today. We should probably be talking to kids in elementary school and absolutely middle school.
Andi Fourlis: 09:13 Absolutely.
Todd Sanders: 09:14 Clearly, this partnership is probably different for you. I know for us, a lot of the discussion prior to the being able to work hand-in-hand with you was, well, it's got to be the fault of education that we're not getting what we need. Turns out, when we looked in the mirror, we're a big part of the problem. We weren't talking to you. We weren't partnering with you. We weren't telling you what we needed. So you were having to guess. As far as you see this evolve, how do you see this program evolving at Mesa Public Schools and how do you think business should be engaging with you?
Andi Fourlis: 09:46 Right now with the ElevateEd model, I'm really excited that we're focusing on our high school students, but I think as we look to the future, we need to push that down into our junior highs and into our elementary schools. And we also need to bring our parents alongside us to help them to understand. So I chose to be a teacher because that was a profession that was visible to me. Many of the professions that our kids are going to go into are not visible to them today because they haven't been invented yet. So how do we talk about their possibilities? How do we look for the talents in our children? What are they naturally talented in and curious about? And how do we ask them questions that will take them down a pathway to say I think you might want to be interested?
Andi Fourlis: 10:26 I was at an elementary school today talking with kindergarten through third grade students that were already demonstrating the curiosity of engineering mindset. And so asking them, 'Wow, you sound like an engineer. I love your language of being an engineer." And they looked at me and I said, "I know it's a hard word to spell, but it's something that I think you would be really good at and interested in." Education should not be separate from college and career preparation. That needs to work side by side throughout our entire school system, not just with our high school students.
Todd Sanders: 11:00 Well, I think that's a good perspective. And I like the idea that we need to be talking to parents too. One of the challenges we've had when we start talking to groups is we mentioned the phrase CTE, career in technical education. And immediately people think about the shop class from 30 years ago.
Andi Fourlis: 11:21 The old voc ed, right?
Todd Sanders: 11:21 Right. And the data tells us kids who are in these CTE-focused areas, tend to graduate at a higher level and they go to college at a higher level. You are all in on CTE. Tell us about that and why?
Andi Fourlis: 11:34 Oh, I think it goes back to relevance and purpose. I think that when students have this opportunity to not only graduate with a high school diploma, but they also graduate with an industry certificate, they are on a pathway to be able to see, understand and align their time and make their time more worthy when they go into college or they go into the career world. So those industry certificates are so important to me or those industry experiences because that's an opportunity in high school for students to say, "I thought that I wanted to go into the medical field. I pursued a certificate to become a certified nursing assistant and I hated every minute of it." I'd want them to hate it in high school, before they start incurring debt at the higher education or they say, "Oh, this is the only place that I'm going to apply." And then they become a disgruntled, horrible employee that they're in the wrong field.
Andi Fourlis: 12:34 So I want them to try in high school when they're still in their home, when they're in a comfortable environment with their friends and their teachers and counselors that support them. So that's why it's so important to me that we allow them to try in high school, but it's most important that they're understanding that they get to chart their future. They are in charge of the future rather than receiving this prescription that says you are going to be a teacher. You're going to be a dentist or you are going to be a farmer. No, there are so many options and we need to let them see the breadth of what that looks like.
Todd Sanders: 13:08 I couldn't agree more. Thinking about a parent who says, "Well, that's great. I'm glad those opportunities exist, but my kid's going to college. Why would I want my kid to be in a CTE course? Why is that relevant?" Is there an answer to that?
Andi Fourlis: 13:22 There's a very simple answer. And we live in a world of and we don't live in a world of or. I can talk a little bit about two of my daughters, graduated from high school with certified nursing assistant certificates when they graduated. That was a leg up for them to become direct admit into the ASU Nursing Program. So this is really working in tandem. Those skills that they learned through that industry certificate in CTE courses and high school have made them leaders in their nursing programs.
Andi Fourlis: 13:54 Many of these nursing students are coming in with high GPA, high ACT, SAT scores, but have never given a blood pressure. They've never worked. They've never been into a hospital setting as an employee to even know that they would like to work in that environment. So I think that the conversation has to be about and, so when we're looking at our kids that are earning industry certificates in manufacturing, that leads them into a company. If they want to go straight from high school, they go into a company, they were going to manufacturing company that says we want to invest in you and help to pay for you to go to college to accelerate your leadership skills or deepen your knowledge within our organization. So no longer do kids pick or, it's absolutely an and.
Todd Sanders: 14:40 Well, I love the example, especially nursing while there's a demand, a huge demand.
Andi Fourlis: 14:44 Huge demand.
Todd Sanders: 14:45 But it's ultra competitive. It's not a guarantee that big as a demand, you are going to get in and giving kids not only the edge, but also the experience because to your point, well, I thought I was going to like this, but I really don't or I love it and I want to do more. That gives them that edge going into the college setting. So thank you for that. I think that's such an important distinction for people to understand. People do like to make this a black and white question, it's not. And really we're just lifelong learners.
Andi Fourlis: 15:14 If I can add on to that too, in my experience of working with many, many, many students over many, many, many years, what I would notice is that students that are in our career technical education programs, they have experiences that they can write about in their scholarship applications. They're more likely to get scholarships when they can talk about what they've done, what they've explored in their life, what they like, what they didn't like. Oftentimes, scholarship applications talk about what were some of your biggest life lessons? What did you learn about yourself? What do you want to do with the rest of your life? They go back to talk about internships that were provided to them, classes that they took and most of them were hands-on and those that were relevant or irrelevant that they talk about. So there are so many opportunities that the experience of career technical education provide to our students.
Todd Sanders: 16:02 Well and having gone through that with my son last year or how many essays, that would've been really helpful. So for those of you out there who's kids are going to be going to this process, good advice.
Andi Fourlis: 16:17 This is the mom in me.
Todd Sanders: 16:17 Well, it's a hundred percent true. It's true. So I like that you talked about manufacturing. We are rapidly becoming a hub for advanced manufacturing all the way through, up through TSMC and the incredible $12 billion investment they're making here in Arizona. As we started to look around the state for high schools that were doing this kind of work in terms of advanced manufacturing, turns out that one stood out because it's the only one right now and that's Mesa Public Schools. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Andi Fourlis: 16:45 Well, there is absolutely a need. And so we are fortunate that we have a lot of support for rapidly responding to the needs of what our community is identifying for us. And taking a look at manufacturing, we know that's where the jobs are growing. And so we had the ability to build manufacturing labs and also the gift of being able to hire the right teachers that are motivating these students to continue their interest in manufacturing.
Andi Fourlis: 17:12 I also think that what's important is I go into those manufacturing classes, skills, collaboration skills, all the things that we know that are happening in the workplace. So even if students are in our manufacturing courses that don't choose that pathway, they have learned skill sets that are going to take them other places, but this also gives an opportunity for manufacturing companies to come in, mentor our students, have conversations with them about all of the possibilities. So you might go into the manufacturing class and say, "Okay, this is not exactly what I want to do, but boy, am I good at project management." And so talking to our students about how that works, I think is important.
Todd Sanders: 17:50 Well also I think again, perception. Is this a dirty greasy... What does it look like? What do these jobs look like?
Andi Fourlis: 17:58 Oftentimes, parents and educators and students don't know what the jobs look like. That's why they need these internships and they need industry partners to paint the picture of it's not greasy. Even automotive isn't greasy anymore. We used to think that was really greasy. Right now you go in and say, oh my welding. There are virtual welders. I mean, there's lots of things that our kids are working with. So I think we need to change some of the stereotype. I think that's a really good point. We need to help many parents, oftentimes, understand what these current jobs are like and what the industries are today. They aren't what they used to be.
Todd Sanders: 18:37 So true. And I mean to go into any dealership with your car, the first thing they do is plug it in and find out what the computer's saying. And especially with electric cars, fewer moving parts and more electronic parts that are really going to be what these kids are going to be working on, which is absolutely amazing. And this opportunity you're offering is really important. So part of our work with you is we actually took folks from our organization for our foundation and embedded in their college and career coaches. Why is that important?
Andi Fourlis: 19:10 Well, it's critical to the success of our students, but it's the secret sauce of this partnership is what I really believe. When you think about how you staff a typical high school, you've got principals, assistant principals, counselors, teachers, department chairs, and so on. Never in that lineup do we ever talk about college and coaches, these career coaches going out into the industry, bringing opportunity to our students. That is something that we've been waiting for industry to knock on our door. We've not always had the door open. We have not had that pathway. So those career coaches are really, really important about bringing opportunity to us and then telling the story of what's happening in our schools back into the career world. I will say that is the secret sauce of what we are doing with ElevateEd. That is the most important role that we have developed together. And I only see it getting larger.
Todd Sanders: 20:06 Well, and thank you and thank you for opening the door. I mean, that's what it took. And we really appreciate the confidence that you had and the trust that you had because I know these kids mean everything to you.
Andi Fourlis: 20:16 Oh, absolutely.
Todd Sanders: 20:17 Speaking of partnership, one of the things that we need to do more of is provide internships. And when we mention internships that we get a lot of hands raised and then when we say high school kids, they all go down, unless they've done it before. And then they become incredible advocates for these kids. Why are internships important? And why should businesses consider a kid in high school for an internship?
Andi Fourlis: 20:40 Our high school students are curious. They are ready to be molded and to be shaped into what the possibilities are. They're looking for possibilities. And so when we open the door to our high schools and I will tell you, we're learning this ourselves as we're the largest employer in the city of Mesa, we are looking to start hiring our high school students to fill our vacant positions in our own schools. And we are realizing they have voice and ideas when they are asked. They are not only our next workforce, but they're also our next body of consumers. And so we need to be listening to them with two ears. Those are our future parents that are going to be bringing their kids to Mesa Public Schools. Our high school students are those who are going to be the next consumer of what's being designed and the prototypes of today are going to be what they're purchasing for tomorrow. So we have to hear from them. They provide so much impact and they will lead us into the future if we let them. So it is important to have them in these internship opportunities.
Todd Sanders: 21:49 Well, and what I like about them is that they're real. These are real opportunities. I think what motivated us to decide to move forward with the internship side, we were actually in another state and we went to a company that had interns and they're paid interns that work up a full semester and we heard a lot of good things and the kids were there and it all seemed a little bit too good to be true. And so we had an opportunity to talk to the IT department about this, and this is a virtual company, a very large company. And we said, "All right there obviously has to be a negative." They said, "There is. There's actually a negative." And we said, "What is it?" They said, "These kids are about 150% faster than we are."
Andi Fourlis: 22:23 Oh, yes.
Todd Sanders: 22:26 So what they were bringing to the table was huge for that company. And to your point, that's your future workforce.
Andi Fourlis: 22:31 That is and your future consumers.
Todd Sanders: 22:34 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One thing I want to touch on is dual enrollment and when I think about the story of your daughters, the idea that you can be in high school and you could be taking college classes and getting credit for it before you even graduated, tell us a little bit about why that's important and where you see that going.
Andi Fourlis: 22:56 Well, it's important because it provides a safe foundation for students to go into the world of whether they're choosing career first or college first. And, again, it's that same idea that in dual enrollment, you are enrolled in college level coursework with the surrounding support system that is comfortable to you in a high school. You're generally living at home with your family. You have your teachers that are familiar to you. You've got the counselor that's familiar. You've got your high school coaches. You have all of these people that are around you saying, "Yeah, you can do this. You don't have to wait until you go out into the world beyond high school to start your college career." So I think that's really, what's important.
Andi Fourlis: 23:38 The other is understanding and building the confidence, not just in the study habits of students, but in understanding when they leave, they can say, "I've already done college, I've got this." And so in Mesa Public Schools, we're launching what we call the graduation plus model that our goal is that our students graduate with a diploma plus college credit and/or an industry certificate or a state seal that is honored by the Arizona Department of Education, such as a seal of biliteracy, service learning and so on because a high school diploma used to be enough. It is no longer enough for children to be able to chart the path that they really want to have into the future of their workforce. And so we see it as a package. And as soon as we can get our kids into college credit, we know that we have a support system to wrap around them in our high school system.
Todd Sanders: 24:31 Well, and I think about the example of your daughters and when they do get to that first day of college, it's not the big mystery. They know what to expect. Obviously, it's a different environment and there are different expectations, but they did this. They've proven that they can do it. And I think it probably takes some of that anxiety away and helps them succeed, especially if they're going into college with credit hours where they're saving money.
Andi Fourlis: 24:50 Right. A high school class syllabus and a college syllabus look very different, but if you can go through those syllabuses under the same roof of your high school, is a really safe place to do that.
Todd Sanders: 25:01 Absolutely. Mom and dad are still there.
Andi Fourlis: 25:02 Yep.
Todd Sanders: 25:04 So we've talked a lot about the work you're doing in the partnership. You've got a good audience of business leaders watching this. How can they be of service to you? How can they better partner with you or be allies to you?
Andi Fourlis: 25:17 I will tell you that oftentimes when we approach businesses and we start conversations, they're always thinking that we're looking for money. We're not looking for money. We want mentorship for our students. I want the investment to be in building relationships with our students and with our teachers. So the best way to get involved is to reach out to your school system and say, "We want to be involved. We don't know what it looks like necessarily, but we want to help shape the future of our workforce. And we really want to improve the lives of the children that are coming out of our schools to create better communities."
Andi Fourlis: 25:50 And so working together is the right way to do it. It doesn't have to be through paid internships. It doesn't have to be through, we will sponsor our carnival at your school. We're looking for bigger, deeper things than that, that say I want people from all industries to come down and start talking with our third and fourth graders. Talk to our teachers about really what are we looking for in the workforce. I would love business to come in and sit through a typical classroom in an elementary school, a junior high school and say, "Huh, you're still teaching that way. That's not how we talk about it at all." These are the questions we ask. This is how we engage our employees. So I would love to build the business mindset throughout our school system, not just waiting into high school.
Todd Sanders: 26:32 And I can speak from experience that you're open to those conversations, which is really key because I think sometimes the perception, well, they don't really want to hear and no you do. And it's a two-way conversation. Speaking of going to classes, as we wrap up, you, this morning, before you came here maybe appropriately, you met with a bunch of kindergartners. What'd you learn?
Andi Fourlis: 26:53 Oh my goodness. Well, I learned I was going to look at a new incentive program that one of our schools was putting together about getting kids to school on time. And they have started by engaging their students in STEM activities for the first about 20 minutes of the day. And so I saw problem solvers. I saw critical thinkers. I saw students that were working together to collaborate, that were thinking about how to solve the world's problems, their problems in a very different way. And so my favorite was a little scholar, a five-year-old, who was designing a cube. He wanted to design a cube out of straight tubes and connectors. And I said, "Why?" And he goes, "Well kind of like an ice cube." I said, "All right." So I came back over to him and I was watching and he was building it around his head. And I said, "So why are you building this around to your head?" And he said, "So I can see it better." That's the power of our kids.
Todd Sanders: 27:50 A hundred percent. Well, thank you for that. We're going to wrap up with a quick lightning round to get to know you more as a person here since we know ever since you were in kindergarten, you wanted to be teacher. Favorite class in your educational journey that you took?
Andi Fourlis: 28:06 My favorite class was always English class, every English class that I took because I thought that there was a lot of opportunity for creativity and I didn't have to follow all the rules.
Todd Sanders: 28:17 Okay. Least favorite class?
Andi Fourlis: 28:18 Math.
Todd Sanders: 28:18 Okay. Math. I gotcha. First job?
Andi Fourlis: 28:23 My first job was in a restaurant.
Todd Sanders: 28:26 What did you do?
Andi Fourlis: 28:27 Well, I was a hostess. And then many of you that are from Arizona or the Phoenix area are going to know that I rapidly moved from a hostess to being a waitress at Ed Debevic's. I was Dotty the polka dot queen.
Todd Sanders: 28:41 That is awesome. And I do remember that right off of-
Andi Fourlis: 28:43 Highland.
Todd Sanders: 28:45 Yeah. Highland and 16th Street.
Andi Fourlis: 28:46 You got it.
Todd Sanders: 28:47 Excellent. Okay. And what did you learn?
Andi Fourlis: 28:50 I learned that my success was dependent upon my relationships with other people.
Todd Sanders: 28:55 And that holds true today. And you can't say your current job, although I know it is a dream job. What is your dream job?
Andi Fourlis: 29:01 Middle school teacher.
Todd Sanders: 29:02 All right. Well with that, we will wrap it up. I want to not only thank you for your time here, but I know, I think we know, what you do on a daily basis. So I want to thank you for your leadership.
Andi Fourlis: 29:11 Thank you.
Todd Sanders: 29:13 It must be really gratifying to be in a position where you're shaping the future of our state. So, thank you.
Andi Fourlis: 29:18 And we are so grateful. Without partnerships, I couldn't do what I do. Thank you.