Todd: 00:00 Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we're honored to have Leslie Meyers, who is the Associate General Manager for Water Resources at SRP. Welcome, we're thrilled to have you.
Leslie Meyers: 00:10 Thank you.
Todd: 00:12 Well, we want to get started with knowing a little bit more about you. You've obviously been involved in water for a long time at the national level, but tell us a little bit more about you.
Leslie Meyers: 00:23 Great. Thanks Todd, and thanks for having me here today. I really appreciate it. I actually came to Arizona right out of college, looking for good solid work as an engineer. My husband and I both started working in the late '80s here in design of roadways, because that was what was happening in Arizona at the time, and they needed lots of engineers. I did that for about a year, and then I transitioned to the Bureau of Reclamation right during the construction of the Central Arizona Project. So I spent 34 years there. Great years. I retired last summer, and came to SRP.
Todd: 01:04 Well, we're thrilled that you're at SRP, and I got to meet you last year, I think, when you were just starting. Something about yourself that we wouldn't know from your bio?
Leslie Meyers: 01:14 Oh, great. So I started this story and then decided to hold it for this piece, but actually when I first came to Reclamation, I was a construction inspector on the Central Arizona Project. I did inspection out in the pump generating plant at Waddell Dam, and actually on the dam itself. So I started in operations, which was fantastic, and it really laid the groundwork from then on. So I've always had water resources, and CAP and now SRP in my blood.
Todd: 01:48 That's excellent. Well, so then when you were here though, when you first got here, did I-17 connect, or I-10 connect all the way through?
Leslie Meyers: 01:54 I-10 did not connect through when we first came through Phoenix.
Todd: 01:58 Okay.
Leslie Meyers: 01:58 Yes.
Todd: 01:58 Yeah. So you've seen a lot of change here.
Leslie Meyers: 01:59 A lot of change and a lot of growth.
Todd: 02:03 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're definitely in a place where people want to come, but that impacts the topic for today, which is, of course, water.
Leslie Meyers: 02:10 It does, and it actually, if we think about it, the fact that we have water and a reliable water supply from the Salt River Project and the Central Arizona Project is what has allowed the Phoenix metropolitan area to grow to be the fifth largest city in the country.
Todd: 02:27 Well, for folks who may not be aware, when you think about the Central Arizona Project, obviously that's how we get the water here from the Colorado River.
Leslie Meyers: 02:35 Yes.
Todd: 02:36 But how did that come about?
Leslie Meyers: 02:39 Well, all of the projects that developed water here have been Bureau of Reclamation projects. So in the early 1900s, when the Reclamation was authorized by Teddy Roosevelt in 1902, Salt River Project was one of the original five projects authorized. So we always say that was one of the first reclamation projects, and ironically, the Central Arizona Project was one of the last authorized reclamation projects, and it was authorized in 1968. So it started planning in the '40s, it was authorized in the '60s, it was constructed in the '70s and '80s, and it started delivering water in the late '80s.
Todd: 03:25 And it was a congressional deal. And my understanding is that part of the deal to include Arizona was that we're last in and first out, in terms of water usage, or rights.
Leslie Meyers: 03:34 It is. So there was a really longstanding disagreement about how the Colorado River was allocated in the lower basin among the basin states, California, Nevada, and Arizona. And Arizona really didn't buy into the methodology early on, and so later there was a lot of discord between California and Arizona. And eventually there was a Supreme Court case, Arizona v. California, and that said, "Okay, Arizona, you are entitled to certain things." But right after that, we had to get the project authorized, and California remembered and remembered hard, and they have the big congressional delegation. So we got the authorization, but the hook was that anything that was developed, any contracts that were established after that date in 1968 had the lowest priority. And that's primarily the Central Arizona Project.
Todd: 04:32 What a fascinating history for our state.
Leslie Meyers: 04:34 Yes, it is.
Todd: 04:36 And I think a good lesson that policy can have very long range impacts.
Leslie Meyers: 04:40 Yes, it is. I think you always have to be careful, because people have, and states and other organizations have, very long memories, and water's just a very hot topic and very important.
Todd: 04:55 Well, and I think that's such an important point you make because in my time here in Arizona, it hasn't always been. We've always just had water, and all of a sudden it's become hot. How did we get here in terms of the water shortage we're in today?
Leslie Meyers: 05:13 Well, I think the bottom line is that we're suffering from climate change, and really climate variability. So the allocations of the Colorado River, the same with the Salt River Project, are based on hydrology from the early 1900s. And what we've seen, of course, over time, is that the climate is so much more variable. So we're having higher highs, lower lows, and just this really significant long-term period of drought. So we might have a couple of good years, but overall we can't... Those couple of good years aren't enough to get us back to normal.
Todd: 05:56 Okay. And I guess to that point, we just got declared a tier two shortage.
Leslie Meyers: 06:04 Yes.
Todd: 06:04 Talk to us about what does that mean? What's the impact on Arizona businesses?
Leslie Meyers: 06:08 So the tier two shortage comes from, and ironically I'll say in the early 2000s or in the year 2000, the Colorado River system was full, and we were in good shape. At the time, the Salt River Project was struggling. But when that happened, we actually, the Colorado River Basin states, and the federal government, negotiated surplus guidelines on the Colorado River first. It wasn't until later in the 2004/2005 timeframe that we got around to talking about shortage sharing guidelines. And those guidelines were actually implemented in 2007. And the premise of the guidelines really were coordinated operations between the Upper Basin, which is at the base of Glen Canyon, Dam, or Lake Powell, and the lower basin, which starts at Lake Mead or Hoover Dam. And the lower basin shortages are based on the elevation in Lake Mead. So as the elevation drops, entities, the states, have to take reductions, right, to try to slow down the decline of Lake Mead.
07:20 Well, before we even had a chance to implement those 2007 shortage sharing guidelines, the modeling and the data said it's not enough. What we negotiated there as far as reductions to deliveries was not going to alleviate enough risk. And so in the mid 2010s, there was a whole nother overlay that's called the Drought Contingency Plan to the original 2007 guidelines. And that overlay then has these tiers, meaning we increased the amount of reductions, we also drew in California, because there was significant risk to them. So now there's reductions through the DCP to Arizona, Nevada, California, and then through a separate set of agreements with Mexico. So we got all the way to 2022 before we had to implement any of those shortage guidelines. And the first one was a tier one, which meant we met the first elevation, and then tier 2A is in 2023. And what it means is there's pretty significant reductions to Arizona, about 600,000 acre feet, 592, which is about 20 to 25%, let's say, of Arizona's Colorado River allocation.
Todd: 08:46 So really significant.
Leslie Meyers: 08:47 It is, it's very significant. And when you think about it, because we talked about this, that CAP has the lowest priority, or a group of folks in that fourth priority, but primarily those reductions come to the Central Arizona Project.
Todd: 09:02 And the aforementioned California really doesn't have to do much at this point.
Leslie Meyers: 09:06 Not at this point.
Todd: 09:08 Okay. So thinking about what we've done, and clearly there's been a lot of work, and sure it's not been in the media, but it's been in the background.
Leslie Meyers: 09:17 Yes.
Todd: 09:17 Do you feel like we've done a good job in preparing and ensuring that we're doing what we can to save water and to bank water?
Leslie Meyers: 09:26 So we actually, there's millions, probably nine million acre feet, and when we talk about an acre foot, that if you envision an acre of land, which is about the size of a football field, about a foot deep of water, that's an acre foot. So it's a pretty significant amount of water, 325,000 gallons. It is the nomenclature, but I know it's not completely intuitive what it is. So when we're talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of acre feet of water, it's a lot of water. So when the Central Arizona Project first came online, we weren't fully using all of our water supply, and so some of the water was staying on the river.
10:10 And because the way that water works in a year is every year starts new, there's an amount of water in the lower basin available, and if Arizona didn't use its allocation, it tiered down in priority to the next user. So for many years, California was using our extra water, and that wasn't necessarily acceptable to Arizona. They wanted to be able to import and use all of our own water supply. So we established the water bank and we started bringing water into Arizona and storing it underground. And the premise of it was that we would use it in times of shortage. We would firm ourselves in times of shortage. So we have a lot of water stored here in Arizona.
Todd: 11:00 So our version of the strategic petroleum reserve, but with water.
Leslie Meyers: 11:03 That's right. That's right.
Todd: 11:04 Okay. And so do you feel like that sets us up in a better place than some of our neighboring states?
Leslie Meyers: 11:10 It does. I think it's good. I think one of the issues is now we did such a great job of establishing that water bank, and creating long-term storage credits, and putting together the institution. Today, now we have to figure out how to recover it, move it around, and use it.
Todd: 11:30 Okay.
Leslie Meyers: 11:31 So we haven't maybe mastered that, but we're working on it. We're in the process of working on that.
Todd: 11:38 So we've had, I think, the benefit of a really nice wet winter, and a lot of snow up north. And I think a lot of people are hoping, well, maybe that's going to have an impact. I think we all know that that's not going to solve the problem, but what kind of impact will that have in this season? For just this season?
Leslie Meyers: 11:55 So for the Salt River Project, which is all interior to Arizona... And the nice thing about the Salt River Project is we are one entity, one watershed, the Colorado River is seven basin states and Mexico. So we have a lot more control over that system. But our series of reservoirs will fill this year and we'll be back to a full status, which is a great place to be. Now we have a limited area that have rights to Salt River Project water, and we're doing some projects that are going to allow us to develop additional supply and move that water outside of the surface area.
Todd: 12:34 Horseshoe Dam, I believe.
Leslie Meyers: 12:35 So yes, we have a couple of things in the queue. We're looking at modifying Bartlett Dam on the Verde River that will allow us... Right now, we don't have a lot of capacity on the Verde, and so we don't have the ability to really control and moderate the water there like we do on the Salt River. And so we're looking at modifying Bartlett Dam, and potentially constructing a whole new Bartlett Dam that will give us a lot more storage and capability and flexibility and reliability on the Verde again.
13:14 And that water is in addition to the initial established Salt River Project water and water service area, so that water will be able to move outside of our project and help support Central Arizona. We're also looking at, in the short-term, the ability to do planned re-operation of the flood control space at Roosevelt, which would let us at the end of the season, release the water slower if it gets into the flood control space, and be able to... So we can use it, instead of just putting it in the river and letting it flow.
13:53 So that's a short-term, that's immediate. And then the other big project that we're looking at is when the Central Arizona Project was constructed, there was a CAP/SRP interconnect, so we could deliver water back then, lots of water in the Central Arizona Project, more need potentially in the Salt River Project, and more flexibility so we can actually deliver water, CAP water, to the Salt River Project for delivery. Today, we want to connect the other way now, so that we can move this water through the Central Arizona Project and support other communities.
Todd: 14:31 Because the Verde system is so healthy now.
Leslie Meyers: 14:33 The Verde system is extremely healthy this year.
Todd: 14:36 That is tremendous. And the idea that we would not really lose that with this interconnectivity sounds like a real win for the rest of the state as well.
Leslie Meyers: 14:46 It is, it is. It gives us just a lot of operational flexibility, and really we have the water supplies that we have. We're going to have really banner years and not so banner years. And the ability to be flexible like this just gives us all the tools back in the toolbox.
Todd: 15:09 So if looking at the west, too early to pop any Champagne corks, this is really, it's a great winter, but we've got a long way to go is what I'm hearing from you.
Leslie Meyers: 15:19 We do. It's been good. We've had a very productive year on the Colorado River watershed too. That one is going to take longer to recover.
Todd: 15:29 Okay. Speaking of that, we understand that we could have a tier three in '23 or '24, obviously give or take, depending on what we're seeing. Can you speak to that?
Leslie Meyers: 15:41 Those are some pretty significant reductions. And I would say that is the most significant reductions per the drought contingency plan that was negotiated. Also, last June, the commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation said, "We've run some models and what we have, what we've negotiated, isn't enough." And we probably always knew that, but it was the best that we could do at the time for a consensus approach. And so the commissioner said, "We need to seriously look at more significant reductions than that." So the reductions, if there's seven and a half million acre feet for delivery in the lower basin, we need to reduce that, drought contingency plan reduces that by about 1.5 million. And then the commissioner says, "We probably need another two to four million reductions."
16:44 So if you think about that, if we're at 5 million acre feet, that's only a third of the water that we're used to getting in the lower basin we would actually have for deliveries. So it's very significant. It's very serious. There's some hope that this year, the water on the watershed will help temper that a little bit. We really need five years of good water supply on the watershed to get through that. So it's a very serious issue, and right now the United States is in the process of developing a supplemental environmental impact statement to the original one that was done for the 2007 guidelines, just to look at all these alternatives and figure out how we're going to move forward.
Todd: 17:33 So thinking about tiers, obviously two's done, but three, it hasn't necessarily impacted daily life for most Arizonans. It certainly impacted the ag community, which is significant, huge. We can't underestimate how big that is. But tier three, how would that start to impact business in a daily life?
Leslie Meyers: 17:57 For those folks, the key to water resources in Central Arizona is to have a diverse portfolio, not to put all your eggs in one basket. So if folks primarily depend on Colorado River water, it's significant. They could lose technically all of their supply. Now, there's some discussion with the United States about developing human health and safety guidelines. Meaning if it's a city and it's delivering to a home, there's some other things that they're looking at which would push water a little bit out of priority. But really, the folks that are in the best shape are entities that have access to other surface water, which would be Salt River Project, groundwater. We have the Groundwater Management Act, so we're limited essentially on access to groundwater, but with all the water stored underground, there's ways that we can maneuver our way through the system. But it's the folks that just have the one supply that are going to be the most significantly impacted.
Todd: 19:09 So what can Arizona businesses and consumers do to impact this? What kind of conservation measures really make a difference?
Leslie Meyers: 19:19 So I feel like this is always what pushes us to innovation is when we get into these sorts of scenarios, we see the chips manufacturers, and other technology moving away from water cooled systems, and moving in other directions. It's a hard place where we are right now. I think there's some potential for some really good things to come out of it. As far as that goes. And there is some excellent technology right now in industrial conservation and other programs.
Todd: 19:56 What about the, I know I went to Israel a few years back, and clearly desal is a big part of their strategy, but a bigger part of this is reclaiming water, and making it potable again. Didn't notice over there, no one said a thing and no one got sick, and it tasted fine. What about here in Arizona? I mean, is that something we should be thinking about?
Leslie Meyers: 20:21 It is, and I actually had the pleasure of going to Israel too, about 10 years ago. And I feel like as you're driving around, you see the purple pipes and all the landscaping, and they're irrigating their crops that way too. And they've really learned how to accommodate. We talk about opportunities to augment our supply. Yeah, I think that our first, next best thing is effluent. It's a supply we have, we control. It's here. We are actually using a lot of effluent. We're just using it in... We're not directly using it. We're not directly reusing that water. We might be putting it in the river, delivering it to Palo Verde for their cooling water.
Todd: 21:08 Which is great-
Leslie Meyers: 21:10 It's part of the Tres Rios system. We've found innovative ways. I think today, the cities especially, and the folks that are developing wastewater, are looking a lot harder at what's the next step with that. And I think you need to.
Todd: 21:25 Well, and I think once people can see and understand that you're just getting H2O, that's it, then it's okay.
Leslie Meyers: 21:32 Yes.
Todd: 21:32 And it certainly can go a long way in conservation, and avoiding a tier three and some of those other things that could come our way, so we can continue to grow.
Leslie Meyers: 21:42 Absolutely.
Todd: 21:43 In terms of generation, you mentioned some of the dams, water levels coming down some. What will be the impact on generation?
Leslie Meyers: 21:51 So a big part of the consideration in this supplemental EIS that the United States is looking at on the Colorado River is protecting infrastructure. And some of that, at least for a long time, is going to be protecting the ability to continue to generate electricity. Six million customers get power from Glen Canyon Dam. One of the biggest issues with Glen Canyon Dam, Lake Powell, is that they primarily... Their minimum generation elevation is also their way to get water through the dam and to deliver it downstream. So it's not just power, it's the ability to get the water out of the dam, and deliver it to the lower basin. So at Lake Mead, Hoover Dam, the United States Bureau of Reclamation did a lot of work in anticipation of this, and they installed low head turbines, meaning you don't need as much elevation to be able to generate power. And they are able to generate at lower elevations, but still, it'll be a fraction of what they can generate and what people are dependent on today. So we talk a lot about the water-energy nexus, and that's a perfect example.
Todd: 23:05 And speaking of large projects, we have the bipartisan infrastructure bill that was just passed by Congress, and signed by the president. What sort of impacts might that have on our system?
Leslie Meyers: 23:20 We didn't talk about this before, but prior to coming to Salt River Project, I spent 34 years at the Bureau of Reclamation. And so I think that all of the funding that's been in the queue, $8 billion through the bipartisan infrastructure law, $4 billion more in the Inflation Reduction Act that's really designated for drought and other water projects, is nearly unprecedented. So the fact that we have that kind of money is fantastic. The thing is, we need projects. And I think there weren't a lot of folks out there developing billion dollar projects, or at the place where they could necessarily spend a billion dollars on a project. So I think the United States is doing a great job of getting money out into the water community to help address these things. I think the best thing that we can do is support the local folks in getting projects ready, getting them off the table and into the field.
Todd: 24:24 Absolutely. Speaking of other collaborations with states, other southwestern states or Mexico, any collaborations going on with those players?
Leslie Meyers: 24:36 Yes. There's always great collaboration. I know sometimes we're at odds, but we really are all in this together. There's a binational desal project that's been in the works for many years with Mexico, is that would be a build off of the agreements, the minutes, that exists between the United States and Mexico for the delivery of Colorado River Water. It's a follow on to minute 319, which looked at other projects that the United States could do in Mexico to conserve water in the United States. So lots of really good collaboration there. And on those projects, it's not just Arizona, it's Nevada and California that are working on those binational projects. We've also looked at projects with California, where California could develop desal and potentially there could be exchanges there, and better inland use. So lots and lots of projects in the queue. Again, these projects, we talked about the Central Arizona project, it was planned in the '40s, it was authorized in the '60s, and it was constructed in the '80s. So a lot of times these things, especially on these large scales, they take time.
Todd: 25:56 It was a big lead time.
Leslie Meyers: 25:57 Yeah. And that consensus building process, it's really important.
Todd: 26:02 Well, so we've covered a lot of ground and certainly there are challenges. We've done a lot up to this point to ensure that we're meeting those challenges, we're going to do more. Thinking about businesses coming into Arizona, is this still a place where companies should come, and look to set up headquarters and create jobs, given this shortage and the mitigation measures that we've put in place?
Leslie Meyers: 26:28 Absolutely. I think Arizona has a great history of, one of the first reclamation projects was here. One of the most recent reclamation projects were here. We had one of the first groundwater management acts. The governor is reconvening the Governor's Water Policy Council to re-look at groundwater management. I feel like we've always been... We have really smart people here working on water, and we've always been on the cutting edge. Clearly, any industry that's going to come here needs to understand the lay of the land, and where we are, and what that means. But I think that there's no other state, no other community, that's done the kind of work and developed that reliable, renewable sources of water like we have in Arizona.
Todd: 27:23 Arizona. It sounds like you're bullish on Arizona.
Leslie Meyers: 27:24 I am, I am.
Todd: 27:25 Yeah. That's good to hear. That's good to hear. Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time with us, and also the work of a career in ensuring that we have the infrastructure, and now the water, going forward. Now, since we are talking water today, we're going to do a lightning round. We're going to do a water themed lightning round. Very quick, very easy. Don't worry. There's not really a wrong answer. Okay. Preference, tap, filtered, or bottled water? What do you drink?
Leslie Meyers: 27:52 I drink tap water.
Todd: 27:54 Okay.
Leslie Meyers: 27:54 I do.
Todd: 27:54 There you go. I like it. I'm sure the mayor's going to love to hear that. In terms of where you'd rather spend some time, the ocean, a river, a pool?
Leslie Meyers: 28:04 A river.
Todd: 28:05 Okay. Excellent. And then we'll go to first job. I think you covered this, but maybe there was a first job in the teenage years.
Leslie Meyers: 28:12 So first job in... Right. So I'll tell you, my first real paying job was at Morrow's Nut House. Yep. I made candy and sold nuts over the counter.
Todd: 28:23 That's great. What did you learn?
Leslie Meyers: 28:26 I learned that I love nuts, and I would fill my pockets with them so I could snack on them when in between customers.
Todd: 28:33 At least it's healthy, right? Okay. And obviously you have a phenomenal job now, but what's the dream job? If you could have any job in the world?
Leslie Meyers: 28:42 Any job in the world? I hate to say this, but I wouldn't change a thing. This is my dream job. When I was in college, I remember wanting to... Well, when I grew up, I grew up in California and we spent all of our vacations camping and boating at all the reclamation projects, which I didn't know were reclamation projects at the time. But once I went to college and in my engineering curriculum, all I ever wanted to do was work in water. And you know how you look back as your children grow, and you advise them? And I wouldn't do anything different. I feel very fortunate to be at Salt River Project exactly where I am now, mentoring young people, getting the next generation ready. It's a great gig.
Todd: 29:29 Well, we normally don't allow that answer, but I believe you. I think that you're 100% honest in this, and that is your dream job.
Leslie Meyers: 29:37 It is.
Todd: 29:37 Thank you for spending so much time with us. We appreciate it. And hopefully we can have you again soon, and hopefully we'll have some more to talk about. More water, more good news.
Leslie Meyers: 29:47 Thanks, Todd.
Todd: 29:48 Thank you.