Todd: 00:00 Welcome back to the podcast. We are honored to have the new Chancellor of the Maricopa Community College System, Dr. Steven Gonzales here with us, and a big important partner of the Greater Phoenix Chamber in our community. Welcome my friend. Good to have you.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 00:13 Thank you, Todd. It's great to be here and good to see you.
Todd: 00:16 Well, for those two or three people in our community that haven't had the chance to meet you or haven't heard, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get here?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 00:23 Well, born and raised here in the state of Arizona.
Todd: 00:27 You're native.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 00:28 That's right. Aren't many of us out there, but there are some. But I grew up in a small town of Coolidge. Some folks that have been around for a long time might refer to Coolidge as the place where they stopped to get gas on their way to Phoenix and Tucson before I-10 was built, so you know how long ago we're talking. And Coolidge has always been a small town, it's grown some with everything else growing around nearby, but we haven't been completely swallowed up by the Phoenix metro area.
Todd: 01:00 Absolutely.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 01:01 So, grew up in Coolidge and went to high school there. And following high school, I went to Northern Arizona University right out of high school.
Todd: 01:09 Excellent choice.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 01:10 Yeah, I think so. And I thought I wanted to be a civil engineer, and I took a few classes and majored in engineering for probably a year before deciding to change to mathematics as a major.
Todd: 01:23 So you went from hard to harder.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 01:24 Yeah, but math was the part that I really enjoyed for whatever reason. And then somewhere along the line, through an internship that I did, I realized that I didn't want to be a pure mathematician either, and I had to really think about what I wanted to do with myself. And I thought about the fact that I was always inspired by teachers. Some of my favorite teachers were math teachers, and especially those that were teachers and coaches. And so I thought I might want to go back to the town where I grew up in and be a teacher there someday. And that's what I did. And I was a high school math teacher at Coolidge High School for two years before moving on to Central Arizona College.
Todd: 02:02 And that was your first professional job out of college?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 02:04 That was first professional job out of college, taught high school math again. And I also coached wrestling. So when I left the high school to work at Central Arizona College, I kept coaching for about another five or six years. And once my younger kids were old enough to spend a lot more time with them, it began to be difficult to do both. I made a decision to stop coaching, focus on being a dad and working full-time.
Todd: 02:31 So, interesting you mentioned the internship. Yeah. It's such a big focus of the work we're trying to do with ElevateEd. What was that internship?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 02:40 I interned with the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA. So yeah, it was a pretty cool job. Of course, I couldn't say that I was working for them while I was in college, but-
Todd: 02:51 What did you tell people?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 02:52 I told people that I worked for the government. And then to go to Washington D.C. In the summer and semesters that I worked out there, there's a number of things that you could be doing in D.C. working for the government. So now I can say it now, of course, that's declassified information.
Todd: 03:11 Oh, wow. Something we didn't know. That's really cool, and thinking about how that internship really changed your life is really incredible.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 03:19 Well, I love the work there. Computer science was an area that was becoming a major that people could actually major in, and I think that they were taking a lot of mathematicians and also turning them into computer scientists. So I was doing some programming and I didn't really enjoy it, what I was doing. I enjoyed, of course, who I worked for and even some parts of being out there. But one of the other things that I learned that was really important for me, and I still hold this as a value today, a family and being close to family. And I decided that I did not want to live more than half days drive from home. And of course, from the Phoenix area, D.C. Is a four to five hour flight either way. And I just figured if one day I have my own family, I want them to grow up close to their cousins, their grandparents, aunts and uncles. And that's the way that it's been. So it's an important part of their lives as it was for me growing up.
Todd: 04:18 Well, family's important. And I think one of the things that we're learning about internships is that one of the values that they bring to the table is that sometimes you learn about what you don't want to do.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 04:27 That's right. And that was the case for me. And so for my own children, and because I've been in education all my life, I always push the internship opportunity, whether you're getting paid for it or whether you're not. And an internship can be formal. It can be informal. As long as you get to go spend at least a day in a place where you think you might want to work, doing the kind of work you think you might want to do, that is so valuable for anyone in that educational pipeline on the way to a career someday.
05:02 So for some people, it absolutely solidifies what they want to do, and they know they're in the right profession. They make some good mentors, good contacts to help them realize that. And then they're on a sweet ride after that. And that's what an internship should do for someone. Now, as an educator, a lot of what is discussed in a classroom in the traditional sense is theoretical in nature. And you attempt to bring in the real world experience as much as you can describe it. But an internship gives that person, here's the real world experience.
Todd: 05:37 That applied learning component.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 05:38 That applied learning component. And so, one of the goals that I have, among several goals that I have as a chancellor is, and I think it's a bold goal, is to ensure that every single student who comes to us, if they want it, has an opportunity for experiential learning experience, to actually be able to have an opportunity to apply what they've been learning in our classrooms. In some areas, specifically in a career in technical education, it's really easy to do that.
06:06 But if someone says, I'm somewhere in the liberal arts, then we've got to get, no pun intended, we need to get a little creative in how we find that opportunity for them. So if we can get them to be a little more specific and say, I might want to be in marketing, for example, then we should find some firms that are willing to take a student in for at least an hour, half day. In some instances it could be a part-time job, so that they can figure out if that's what they want to do, apply what they've learned in the classroom, and then come back to the classroom, just sort of more focused, reinvigorated for the choice that they've made.
Todd: 06:44 Well, and hopefully for these businesses as well, is perhaps a future employee.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 06:49 Absolutely. And in Phoenix nowadays, and it's Phoenix metropolitan area, people are clamoring for a workforce, especially in this high-tech, high paying jobs that we see coming in. I got to sit down on a presentation today delivered by Sandra Watson of the Commerce Authority that talked about all of the projects that are currently in a pipeline, and if they materialize, could potentially bring up to another 160,000 jobs in high-tech, high paying areas. And I know that the Greater Phoenix Chamber is involved in a lot of those conversations, and you guys are good partners with them, with GPEC and others that are making Phoenix area an enticing place to come and plant roots for a company with the promise that we're going to have a workforce that's prepared for you. And that's where we play a critical role in Maricopa Community Colleges with the number of students that we serve across the valley to have a wide impact or solid impact on filling those workforce gaps.
07:51 And we work closely. And again, with your help, we work closely with school districts, we work closely with industry, two that come to mind that are just enormous, are Intel and TSMC that collectively have asked us to produce, in a hurry, I'd say between eight and 10,000 semiconductor technicians. So the community college path is one where there's the traditional opportunity if you want to earn the associate's degree. And if you want to earn eventually a bachelor's degree that we'll now be able to offer, we do that. But that upskilling and re-skilling is, I think it's the next wave. It's here already.
Todd: 08:35 Well, the lifelong learning is, that's a big thing. And it's not going anywhere.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 08:39 That's correct. So the reskilling part, another thing that I learned is that over the next five to 10 years, there are going to be across this country, probably 150 million people that are going to need to reskill. Because whatever they're doing today may disappear, likely to automation. Maybe there's just simply not a need for whatever that job is. So someone needs to be there to shore up to provide that opportunity for these people to reskill. We think as the community colleges, we're the answer to that reskilling, because we're agile, we're all across the valley. We not only meet students where they are, but we will meet industry where they are, too.
Todd: 09:23 Well, it's such an important component of the economy. And maybe to set the stage, and I mentioned your new chancellor, well, it's kind of a misnomer, but how did you get to this position? Talk to us about that journey, but also maybe for those of us who were in the system like I was in the eighties, it's changed. Talk a little bit about the system as well.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 09:44 Sure. So how I arrived at the Chancellor's position, in 2013, I became the president of Gateway Community College, one of the 10 colleges in the system. And I'd been at Central Arizona College for 15 years before that and left there as their Associate Vice President of Instruction. In January of 2020, I was asked to step into the chancellor's position as the interim chancellor while a search was underway to fill a job permanently. And I thought that I was going to be in the job for six months, and more than two and a half years later, I was appointed to the role permanently.
Todd: 10:22 With Covid in the middle?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 10:23 With Covid in the middle. And I think that's what really set this whole thing in motion was the fact that six weeks into the job, we go into spring break and we never really came back from spring break. We're back now. But the way that we're back looks very different from March of 2020. We've been fundamentally changed as an organization in the way that we work with one another, the way we communicate with one another, and more importantly, our core function of teaching and learning. The way that we deliver that looks really different from how we did it just three years ago. So if there's a silver lining through the pandemic, it's that it forced us as the one of the largest, if not the largest community college systems in the country, to realize that we can literally turn on a dime. Because in two weeks time, we took over 22,000 face-to-face classes and moved them to an online environment.
Todd: 11:19 Classes, not people.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 11:19 Not people, classes. So if you just average that there are 15 to 20 students per class, you can do the math on a number of students that were involved in that. When I say that we don't look the way that we look then, it's because our class schedules look really different. You can find the traditional face-to-face Monday, Wednesday, Friday, eight to eight 50, college algebra if you [inaudible 00:11:43] But you're also going to find a very eclectic schedule that has a hybrid learning opportunity for you. We've always had that completely online, but now we've moved from face-to-face to completely online to almost offering everything in the middle of that.
Todd: 12:00 Well, I got to think for someone like a working mom that wants to move into a different career, move up in her career that doesn't have the time to do a traditional type of setup, this could be a game changer for that kind of person as well.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 12:11 Well, and that's what we've seen. Across Maricopa, our average age is about 24 to 25 years old. That's seven, eight years beyond the high school senior, typical high school senior age, which would suggest to you that this person has been out and they've tried some things. And in most instances, this typical student is a 24 to 25 year old single parent that's trying to find a way to make a better life or his or her own family. And so we're seeing a lot of that. So that's what's really prompting us, not only because the workforce is asking for it, but because our people that are coming to us that want to enroll in our classes are saying, I can't afford to be here for two years. I don't have the time. In some instances I may not have the money. What else can I do to quickly to get a skill, get into the workforce, and then see where it takes me after that?
Todd: 13:09 Well, [inaudible 00:13:12] I think all the hallmark of the system is that you really have been there since I can remember to serve the community. And it seems like you've pivoted out of necessity, but now you haven't changed that to make sure that you continue to serve them.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 13:24 In fact, community is in our name, and I think that we've proven over the last two and a half to three years, especially through the pandemic, that we've served our community immensely, our parking lots became testing and vaccination sites through the pandemic. Every single one of our college campuses has a food pantry that's available to the students. Our campus parking lots also served as food distribution centers for the community. So we are interwoven in our community. We are dependent on our community, and I think our communities are dependent on what we do and deliver as well. I'd like to say this because we just had the Super Bowl. And it was fun and exciting. I didn't go to anything, but I got close to the events that were going on. And one of the things that I thought about was the fact that we really appreciated the economic impact to the state.
Todd: 14:19 Right, probably 600 million plus, sure.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 14:22 I heard closer to a billion dollars.
Todd: 14:24 Probably with the open. Yes.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 14:25 Yeah. So with that, think about this for a moment. The last time that Maricopa did an economic impact study, we have a 10.4 to 10.7 billion economic impact in this area. So we are the Super Bowl of higher education, if you would let me refer to it that way. And I say that because we should get excited about the fact that the community has Maricopa Community Colleges as an asset. And sometimes, I don't know if it's always seen that way. Sometimes it makes it challenging when we're looking for the support and funding that we need to run this major enterprise that we should get excited about the fact that it is truly an asset for this community.
15:07 The more people that we get that will walk away with the skill certificate, industry certification or degree on their way to a bachelor's degree, the better off we're all going to be. The research has shown that a person with education is more likely to be involved in the democratic process. They're more likely to be a healthier individual, and they're going to be a great contributor to the society that we live in. And we want more of that. And there are other things that I think are a part of that, part of the variables of that equation. But I would put education up there in the top three.
Todd: 15:43 No doubt. The ROI is huge, absolutely. And for those of us who, oh, I live in Mesa. I know that we have MCC, or Scottsdale, that don't know how many colleges are in the system.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 15:53 So we have 10 independently accredited colleges in our system. And total, we probably serve 160 to 175,000 students. The pandemic had a pretty serious toll on our enrollment where we lost nearly 20% of our student enrollment. And this past fall, and in this spring semester, we're finally seeing those numbers creeping back up.
Todd: 16:17 They're coming back now.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 16:17 They're coming back. And so life is maybe balanced out for them, and things have settled down a little, but there have also been some opportunities that have help people afford college at the moment. And so what we learned through the pandemic was that it wasn't always the cost of attending college that was the barrier. It was the cost of living. That in general, to give up time to be in a classroom means you're giving up time from probably working a job.
Todd: 16:51 Some sort of earning potential is not happening.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 16:53 So we've seen some exciting things, innovative things happen as a result of that, the Route to Relief program that the city of Phoenix supported by making seven to 8 million dollars available for anyone who lives in the valley that wants to go to one of our colleges. They help get help for their tuition and possibly get a stipend to help them with some of the other costs. We just had the First Lady of the United States here on Monday at Mesa Community College, who was here to celebrate our partnership in Mayor Giles in the city of Mesa and development of the Mesa Promise program. So we had the first lady to celebrate that. Also in attendance was our newly elected governor. Congressman Stanton was there, and of course the mayor was there. And then we had the US Secretary of Education, a lot of political power in the room to say, folks, this is really important for us. We understand the importance of education, but behind that, we also need to ensure that there's a way for people to have access to that.
Todd: 17:58 Not just on people, but everybody.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 17:59 That's right.
Todd: 18:00 When we look around the country, other systems, how do we compare, for instance, if we think about benchmarking ourselves to similar communities, how do we compare?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 18:08 We are one of the largest, again, if not the largest, I was specific to say that we're comprised of 10 independently accredited colleges because there are some systems that are nearly our size that are seen as one independent or one accredited institution. For accreditation purpose, that means something. But when you slice and dice us and look at our numbers, so other systems that I look to for sometimes inspiration and sometimes for comparative purposes, I'll often look to Miami Dade, I'll look at Los Angeles County, I'll look to Dallas College.
Todd: 18:45 Large metros.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 18:46 Houston's so large, they've got two community college systems there, and both are big systems. 50 plus thousand students in their systems. So in City Colleges of Chicago or another group, those are the ones that come to mind immediately. For everyone else, they're likely going to be a small to mid-size college. And if they're a large community college, they may have 15 to 20,000 students, but half of our colleges in Maricopa have 15 to 20,000.
Todd: 19:17 We're unicorns in the country, then, in terms of that. Well, you mentioned wanting to be accessible to everyone. And I think that's such a laudable goal. And I think that's what we were thinking about when we partnered with you. Talk a little bit about the partnership with ElevateEd, the Chamber Foundation's program and why you think it's important.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 19:36 Well, the ElevateEd program is an example of one of those partnerships where we have someone such as the Chamber that says, we share a common interest. We want to see, we want to help close the workforce gaps. And we see education as the primary mechanism, the vehicle to do that. And so you guys have come in and you've said, we want to help serve in this capacity. In fact, we want to help lead some of the effort. We work closely with these industries, we work closely with these schools. And so what can we do to help bridge that conversation?
20:14 And so what I really like about it is the focus on that high school student. We're focusing on the high-tech, high demand, high paying job opportunities that will turn into careers. And you know us, and you know us well. And so that's really helpful that our leaders and organizations have strong relationships so that when we come to the table and we throw these ideas around, there's likelihood that something's going to stick. And to me, ElevateEd is one of those ideas that has stuck and it's proven to work really well right now.
Todd: 20:53 And I appreciate that. And you all have been incredible partners. And I think one of the things that we found early on was we're not getting what we want. It's got to be the fault of education. And what we found out was, no, there has to be a conversation that wasn't occurring. And we appreciate your willingness to engage in the conversation with us. One of the things that I think we're really focused on with you is dual enrollment. And I think that that's another area where there's a lot of opportunity. What are thoughts on the dual enrollment and how we can do more?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 21:19 Well, as a former high school math teacher, I understand the importance of developing that college going attitude for a student. Research has shown that often by the time a child is in the fifth grade, they may have the capacity to understand whether their parents can afford to send them to school or not. So that's pretty young. And so while we're focusing the high school, I'd love to get us to the point where we're even thinking lower than that. But the fact that we're working with the high school is the opportune time and age to do that. There was a report that came out recently that was conducted by Helios working with ASU. And their studies showed what other studies have shown that when students are in high school and they complete a college level course while in high school, they're twice as likely to go on and earn a degree.
22:13 It's really important to acknowledge that it's saying that they're twice as likely to go on and earn, not twice as likely to pass a class, not twice as likely to go to college. But it's to do those things and actually earn a degree at the end. And it's a time saving effort for these high school students. If they can earn three credit hours, six credit hours, great. That's a half a semester in some instances for our students. And then the other thing that it does for the students, it builds this level of confidence for them that says, I can be successful on a college level class. I can do it. I did it.
22:51 And if we can do more of that, then great. There's currently a bill that's moving through the Senate, 1717, had an opportunity to testify and support that. And I know that you all are behind that and help craft that. And so I'm always on board to support something like that that puts that opportunity into a student's hands sooner. And the nice thing about this bill is that the scholarship opportunity provides for the student means we can expand the number of students who have that dual enrollment option.
Todd: 23:24 Absolutely. And what I think is interesting too, is that I think people assume sort of one thing in terms of what you all delivered, but there's also CTE pathways that are equally important that you all offer. Tell us a little bit about that.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 23:37 Well, the CTE pathways are what I would say are sort of that non-traditional route for the student. Oftentimes we think of college, we think that you're going to go earn a bachelor's degree. And when in fact, there are many other ways to get to the career that you want to go to. And something has happened in education over the last 25 or 30 years where we may have forgotten how to develop that interest and to let students know early on that there is. Working with your hands, for example, maybe you want to become an electrician, maybe you want to become a machinist. And in many ways it's also computerized anymore, that it's a high-tech job. and we need these people. And by the way, these are high paying jobs. And you can almost go anywhere in this country and find a job doing some of those things.
Todd: 24:34 So we found that important during Covid, didn't we? These people are incredibly important.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 24:40 That's correct. That's correct. And so it's important for us as community colleges to have that opportunity as well. In the dual enrollment space, there is the opportunity to earn dual credits through some of our CTE programs. And I'm a huge fan and supporter of those because, again, it gives an alternative route to a prosperous life filled with opportunity. In some instances, these folks can have their own business and it becomes very lucrative for them.
Todd: 25:16 Absolutely. And I got one of the best stories I've heard on that arena with a partner of our plumbing company. He knew he didn't want to go to college when he graduated high school. And he started his own company eventually after learning the trade. But then once he had his company, he needed to go back to learn business administration. So I think that goes back to your lifelong learning opportunity and learn the trades and you can learn so many more things through the system. Looking forward, everyone seems to be talking about AI and chatbots and all of these things. In the next 10 years, what kind of changes can we expect to see at the higher ed system?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 25:57 Well, artificial intelligence is here and it's alive and well. And sometimes it's hidden and you may not realize that it's there. Maricopa worked with Intel to develop the country's first certificate and associate's degree in artificial intelligence. And so we're placing our bets on that. And in fact, we use that, like you said, mentioned the chat box, an artificial intelligence feature that engage us with the student. And oftentimes our students say, I didn't realize that wasn't a human who I was chatting with. That's when you know that you're doing it well.
26:34 So, to me, that's just the start. I think the last time, at least in my lifetime, that we've seen this technological change. I was in college and I was able to get through most of my university experience in early nineties without using the email address that the university gave to me. Think about that for a moment. And I remember seeing one of the first commercials, I think it was a cereal commercial where they put their website at the bottom of that commercial. And I thought, who cares? Who wants this? When am I going to go to [inaudible 00:27:09] All I want is my Fruit Loops.
27:13 With that, It's hard to imagine. Because I remember being in college at that point, and our teacher educators, our teacher professors were saying, you are going to be teaching students and preparing them for jobs that don't exist. 25 to 30% of the jobs are going to go away, and there's going to be 60% of the jobs out there that we don't even know what they are. So I think we're in that moment right now where we're going to see a number of jobs disappear due to artificial intelligence, which means that there's going to be a host of new jobs that I can't even tell you what they are yet, but I can tell you that we're doing things to help prepare as best we can. We're reading the tea leaves from the future that says, this is what we think students need to be prepared for.
Todd: 27:57 That kid that's wondering, what's this chatbot thing? Why is it on my cereal commercial?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 28:01 Correct.
Todd: 28:03 So how are you thinking about these new chats that can now write papers and do your homework for you? I mean, I know that's a small part of what probably you worry about, but you seem to be hearing more and more about that.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 28:18 Well, and I have been hearing more about that. And I think if I was a professor, I'd probably be pretty worried about that. Professors already have access to tools to be able to determine if students are using and writing papers and using parts of other papers that have been written around the country. And those are effective tools. But artificial intelligence and chats and robots being able to do this is entirely different. And so we've got to step up our game there. So Todd, there's new jobs right there already.
Todd: 28:47 Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. And there's nothing going to the sun. I mean, I think when I was in college, everyone had cliff notes and that was sort of the big thing and now of course that's just nothing. Well, thank you for spending so much time with us today, and thank you for the strong partnership with the Greater Phoenix Chamber and our business community. Before we go, quick lightning round, and I know your first professional job, but what was your first job?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 29:13 My first job that I actually got paid for, and every now and then I look at a social security statement. It goes back to the late eighties. And my dad made me go out and chop cotton. And chopping cotton meant walking in the summertime, walking through cotton fields with a chopping hoe and cleaning out the rows. And he had me do that. And he had my brother do that for a number of reasons. The way he grew up, he and his family had to do that. That was the work that was available for them at the time. And he said, if you ever think about dropping out of school, that's what's waiting for you.
Todd: 29:57 Smart dad.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 29:59 Anytime you spend money and you think about how much work you've got to do to earn that dollar, this is what it takes to earn it. And I don't ever want you to be afraid of hard work. He says, I'm promising you a college education and hopefully this isn't what you have to do someday. But remember, this is what's always waiting for you. And I also appreciate the fact that there are people that still do those sort of things today. And when I see that, I just have an appreciation for them, because I paused in that moment and count my own blessings. But I'm very grateful for the fact that we have people that are doing some really hard work out there right now.
Todd: 30:37 A hundred percent. Wow. Great parenting. Did you learn anything else in that job?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 30:44 I did. I went back and well, I was always a good student. I was straight A's afterwards, and I took school really seriously. I also took every opportunity very seriously. I joined every club. I did all the sports I wanted to do because I felt like I was given something that neither of my parents had an opportunity to do. And I wanted to make them proud through that process,.
Todd: 31:05 That American dream. That's wonderful. Well, and I know you're in your dream job now, but let's imagine, think huge. Anything. What would be your dream job?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 31:22 I like to hunt and fish and I watch these shows on TV. And I think to me, that's a dream job.
Todd: 31:27 Like a guide?
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 31:28 Guide. Yeah. Or going all over the world and just sharing my hunting, fishing experience with people who want to watch that program.
Todd: 31:35 There you go. Absolutely.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 31:37 What I would even imagine talking to someone that does that, they probably have another dream job, but they seem to share it [inaudible 00:31:42]
Todd: 31:41 Yeah. I'm sure they have their moments, but that does sound pretty good. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, and we certainly look forward to more partnership in the future.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 31:51 Thank you, Todd. And we appreciate your partnership and always here to help and serve. And I also want to thank everybody in Maricopa. I'm not doing this job alone. We've got 12,000 employees, a number of faculty and staff and administrators that get up every day to do this because this is what they want and love to do. And so I just want to say thank you to all of them.
Todd: 32:10 Well, it's mark of a good leader. Thank you.
Dr. Steven Gonz...: 32:11 You're welcome.