Featuring Victoria Garrick

The Hidden Opponent, talking about this in raising awareness. That organization is now featured in Kobe Bryant and Eva Clark's book Geese Are Never Swans. So we talked about the book. We talk about her nonprofit, what it's like being a student athlete, and how you can make an impact. I hope you enjoy Victoria, Bye, how are you? I am good.

I am so excited to you have you on my podcast for so many reasons, not only because we have a lot to talk about, but also both of our podcasts have the word real on a real pod Let's Be Real. I think it's fitting. I know I noticed that, and I was just like, I love this realness, being authentic, no filters, that is all my favorite stuff. So glad to meet one of the same exactly. It's so important, especially with what's going on now in the world. Um. So,

like I said, we have a lot to talk about. First, I read the book Either Never Swans, and oh, my goodness, why hasn't there been a book out like this before. Yes, it's such an amazing book. Um. That just really depicts mental health issues so beautifully, and especially in athletes, which is a storyline we don't often get. And I literally read the entire novel in one night. That's depressive and

that's not even a joke. I had to read it early because of the promo, so obviously I was like, I gotta read this thing quick, but that I could not put it down. It was so good. And that also made me so happy because I am so passionate about the story and people reading it. So I just feel really once again real in the fact that I'm promoting the book because I love it and I want

everyone to get their hands on it. So for those who don't know, Uh, Kobe Bryant and Ava Clark created the idea for this book, and they and Ava Clark wrote it. Um, And I think this story is just like I said, it's so not talked about and congratulations. Your nonprofit is listed as a resource and I want to talk more about that in a second, but first I just want to talk about for those who haven't read the book, can you give the synopsis? Yes. So the synopsis of the book is as follows. It centers

around a young character, Gus. He is a swimmer, and Gus is when we first opened the book, is dealing with the grief of losing his older brother to suicide. And his older brother was also a competitive swimmer, and the older brother got very very very close to making the Olympic Games and did not qualify at the Olympic trials, and that devastation everything he dedicated his whole childhood to qualify for the Olympic Games and then not make it um was unbearable for that older brother, and he ends

up taking his own life. And so now Gus, the younger brother, is navigating the loss of Danny, his broken family life, and going to experience those same pressures, thoughts, and stresses that his older brother experienced. Because Gus is also a swimmer who also wants to go to the Olympics, so we kind of see the same storyline manifest itself and Gus but the difference is how can he navigate

these challenges better than his brother? When I read the book, one of the main things that I took away from it is that being a student, let alone a student athlete, you try and plan everything accordingly, but you know, life throws you curveballs, and it's not what the curveballs are, but it's how you react them is what shapes you as a person. So I'm curious, as a former do one volleyball player at USC what kind of curveballs were

thrown your way? Well, it's interesting because I felt like, Um, some of the curveballs I faced as a college athlete were. One of the biggest ones was just my myself, the own my own self talk, the things I said to myself every day. In that kind of environment, my confidence was shaken for sure. Um that question of am I good enough to be here? Did I prepare enough? Do I know enough? What do they think of me? Um? The level is just so high that for me I

developed that sort of imposter syndrome. And I definitely feel like towards While I definitely struggled with my mental health throughout college, my senior year I felt like I had kind of mastered my own mind and how to handle it in those situations. But then I graduated and I've been pursuing my own career, and I found that I still struggle with those thoughts of my own self worth

or with anxiety. But now the narrative is slightly different, and so I'm having to re understand the new curveballs, um, and apply what I used to practice to this new dialogue, if that makes sense. So I think every curveball we're thrown in life, whether what comes next is similar or not, we're developing and creating mechanisms to handle that sort of thing. And so it only makes you start for sure. I mean also, like you're going to say, like we're a

lot of the times our worst enemy, you know. It's how I think. Also social media plays are roll into that, which we can talk about later. Um. But another aspect of this book that I love is the relationship that gus Uh creates with his coach. It's that, you know, camaraderie that I think is so special, and it's not really talked about how that can help to have someone like that who understands the pressurey that you're under. Did

you ever have that type of experience. I feel like it's very special to have a coach who has that sort of impact on you, in that relationship with you. And I definitely experienced that sort of coaching in high school from my club coach. However, UM, you know it is it is something that when you continue in a sport and you experience different coaches, and I had two

different college coaches. And on top of that, UM, if you're great, if you're fortunate enough, depending on your division, you might have three to four extra coaches on a staff. So fortunately, I think with good people, there's always an opportunity to form a connection. UM. But for me, I would say, looking back on my sports career, you know, being honest, being real, I don't have that one coach,

UM that I feel like changed my life. UM. I did feel like I found that in teammates and role models, but it is something that as an athlete, you know, you hope you do come across. Do you think if you had that that would have helped the pressures that you kind of put unto yourself with under the such high stakes. I definitely do. I think that when you feel like your coach fully believes in you and wants to see you shine and cares about you as a person.

Some of that you are going to mitigate some of that stress and pressure because you're not worrying about what your coach thinks about you, and there's not anymore. There's not much uncertainty because their relationship is clear, and so I definitely think that that would have been a help. However, I learned one of my biggest lessons and not having that, which is not letting people outside myself give me validation.

The more I seek, uh the approval of a teammate or the approval of a coach or the non important then then the less secure I can be in just my own thoughts and knowing who I am. So while I yes, that would have been nice to have, I don't regret the incredible lesson it taught me of being

the person who creates my own storyline. So when you found out that you were going to be a player at USC, which is their volleyball team, in credible What was your experience like in the work and for those who don't understand how much goes into being a student athlete, can you describe what your days were like? Yes, So, I was so excited this was everything I had wanted, especially playing volleyball my entire childhood, and so to get

this opportunity was huge. And getting there, I think you like to imagine, you know, what it would be like to be a student athlete, especially at USC. You think, oh, I know, I can work really hard, I promise, like all I want to do is play volleyball. You know, you think these things, and then you get there and they lay out your schedule and you realize that Monday through Friday, from one o'clock to six o'clock, you can't do anything but show up to the gym and just

do what they say. So from one to six Monday through Friday, I would have practice, film a lift. Most of the time in that block, you're you're working out for about three four hours. Depending on the day, you could have a three hour practice, US an hour and a half lift. Um, the numbers could vary. My body is just tired just hearing this, litterally doing it. And then yes, and then you fit in your class before

one or after six. Not to mention the other things that we do as college students, having a family life, of social life, wanting to just get lunch with a friend, um, and then you have games twice a week, and that includes traveling out of the state depending on your club friends and keeping up with the academic schedule. About everyone else at the school is as well. When did you

have time to eat? That is the thing you have to carve in, is like you have to make sure you're eating and you have to like plug it into your calendar. And that goes along with just even time to do nothing. I feel like if I am waking up and doing things and I'm super robotic, um, I just feel like I'm not relaxed or I haven't had

a moment to distress. So it's also carving in like thirty minutes to do nothing, which you barely can't even get And honestly, at the time, my thirty minutes of doing nothing was just sitting stressing about the things I should be doing or um, you know, feeling overwhelmed and kind of letting up because you know, and you just do so many things that you don't focus on what's

really happening. And then you slow down, You're like, so it becomes weird to like take a breath, Yes, you realize what you've been kind of running from with this busy schedule, so it was a lot. Um it is a lot for current student athletes, and um, you know that just comes with the territory. So I'm curious because I'm always thinking about like different solutions to things. If you could rewrite the curriculum for a student athlete, what do you think you could do that would make it

more manageable. It's tough because they do try to make sure all the schools are doing the same things and have the same opportunities to practice and et cetera, and they're very strict rules about that stuff. However, for UM, I feel like the most obvious thing to me that can be adjusted is just providing equal and accessible mental health support for all student athletes. Uh, That to me would have helped me manage everything much sooner. Is to have that person to talk to. And fortunately at USC

I did have that. It took me a while to go seek that help, but there are many many schools and players who don't have an opportunity to seek that help for their mental health. So it's incredibly important. And that's another reason why the book Use Are Never Swands so important is because it details this side of the game that is equal to all the physical things we do to compete. We had to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to talk about

mental health and athletes and something social media. We'll be right back, and we're back my Season one finale. Kevin Love with our guest and saw that that is my dream interview congrat agulation. That was crazy. He's incredible and we One of the things that we talked about that I want to bring up with you is that there's

such a stigma for athletes going to therapy. It's fascinating to me that it's okay to go to a sports psychologist, it's okay to work out and get in great shape physically, but yeah, there's such a stigma to go to therapy. I always say that you're supposed to work out your body, but you're also supposed to work out your mind, Like that's what therapy is. I agree with that wholeheartedly. The stigma from society is definitely a huge factor in the

reason why we don't prioritize mental health as much. It's just this idea that because you can't see the injury because it was invisible, because someone just has to say it's there, makes it less believable, and we obviously know as a society we don't like to believe things unless

we can see them. So, um, you know, I found that the stigma of oh, you should just be able to figure this out or cheer up, or you've got this or brush it off, so not that simple, not so simple exactly, especially these terms that we have coined in sports culture, like brush it off, shake it up, um, figure it out, just be clutched. All those things make you think it is something you can just fix yourself.

But when we look deeper and we die below the surface and we talked to those professionals and people who really know what's happening inside our minds, they can tell you it's not just a quick fix. It's the same sort of injury as an a C L tear. You need to go to rehab, you need to get surgery, you need to um take time off. And if your brain, if you're depressed, Um, the neurochemicals in your brain are not the way they once were. You're not producing enough

serotonin from people. Forget, there's a science behind it. It's not just like there's a chemical imbalance in your brain. A lot at the time that's not just in your head exactly. And I think we beat ourselves up for not being able to think ourselves out of it. And I struggle with that for a long time. I just said, you've got to think yourself out of this. You know, this just means you can't handle. No one else is this way. And I discredited how severe the issue actually

was until it was really bad. Yeah, well, I heard you say that you never really experienced anxiety before this. No, my high school experience, I'm fortunate to say, was pleasant. Um, I know a lot of people don't have that. I wish I could say the same. Oh no, I'm sorry. It wasn't rough. The first two years were the hardest for me. Last year was a lot better, and this year I'm a senior. So we're trending in the right direction. But it's all about putting your mental health first, right, right.

And I also think we're at different times, um, with social media, and even though we are close in age, you are going through high school at a time where we have a TikTok or we have Instagram the way it is. I did not get Snapchat till my sophomore year of high school. So even though I have been

very tech savvy, and I'm a younger generation. It was not as prevalent as it was, so who knows how many mental health would have been if I was dealing with the same social media scrutiny and involvement that you have to deal with. UM. But so for those reasons, and also for having a pretty blessed, privileged family, UM,

I did not experience too many mental health issues. But then when I got to college, I just felt like that schedule we mentioned, the pressure we talked about all just came out of nowhere and I was not able to handle it. You mentioned this in your TED talk, and I was so curious about this. You said that if you're one minute late, you had to wake up at six am and run. Why did they do that? That is as clear as it sounds. If you are one minute late, we are all running at six am

the next morning. That was a team role. Sixty seconds yep, that was a team role. And it was just you can't be late. There's absolutely no excuses. UM, we show up on time or we show up early. And that was one of the main things that developed to my my anxiety a real quick and it wasn't understandably. It wasn't just if you were lately ran at six am. It was if you break any single rule on our

team rules, we will do six am running. So wearing the wrong color shirt, forgetting your socks, like just common human errors, punishing you for being human. But it's tough because you know, I still look back and I'm torn between. I personally think at this time in my life, I could handle that penalty, I could handle those rules, and as an eighteen year old who was dealing with so many changes and adjustments in college as a freshman, I

just wasn't equipped to handle that stress and pressure. Because I look back and I'm like, Okay, we were number one in the country. We were undefeated. You know, there's a reason why we were that good. And I'm guessing rules and the team dynamic and that strictness played a part in our performance. However, you know, I just wasn't wise enough. I hadn't done enough work, I wasn't experienced

enough to know how to handle that pressure. And like, if I had that rule now and I made the team run, I feel like by accident, I feel like I would just be like, you know what, sorry, guys, I'm human. I forgot my mis shure, like I'll see you guys six am. Whatever. That's life where a team we do things like this, whereas freshman year was everyone's gonna hate me. I'm a freshman, I'm a walk on. I'm gonna make the steamyors run like it was just this.

There was so much more tied to it than just a punch with the hierarchy of that too, like seniors. And you couldn't be late to six am running. If you are late to six am running, we had to show up the next day. And that happened once someone missed six am running because they overslept, and so we had to come back the next day at six am. Did you have time for a social scene with your schedule? I did my best to try to keep up some

sort of social life. One of my my best friend from high school, also went to USC and she was not an athlete, so she was able to, you know, bring me along to things and introduced me to her friends. And I was grateful to have that because I didn't have the time to go meet people at all. So for her to just say, join us for dinner and let me introduce you to all the friends I've made was a really nice thing to have. However, something I really struggled with was not having a social life or

friend group outside my team. And my senior year UM in the spring was the first semester I was just a student because volleyball is in the fall, and now that I didn't have a season, I was training for

you get senior spring, just to be a student. And that time in my life, I really was like, Wow, I've been here for four years and my only friends or social relationships were teammates, And it just was really difficult for me to sit with that as a college senior, thinking great, now I have all this time, I don't have practice. I can do everything social I would ever want to do, but I don't really have people to

do that with. And I really struggled with that. That makes total sense, and I also think the social media role that plays into that, where you see people having fun and partying, then also you're torn between wanting to go out, but then also you're in a really bad mental state where you don't want to socialize with anybody.

It's that it's that you're between a rock and hard place. Well, something I've discovered about myself in quarantine, which I'm so excited, like this one thing will be the best thing that I've realized about myself is so I mentioned I struggled with kind of that lack of a ton of friends, and I think, especially as females, there's this pressure to have a girl group as a girl's night out, and so you don't have that group of five or six or that group chat, you think like something's wrong with me.

And before Quarantine, I just remember, like actively, how can I build relationships? How can I invite someone here? Like I need more friends? Because there were social things happening, pictures, events, and I felt like I needed that. But now that I've been in quarantine and there is no party to go to, there are no pictures of the groups, there are no things. I've looked at my life. I've been realized I don't have an absence. I don't feel an

absence of friends. I have some of my my best friends in the world, but let's be real that it's like four or five people and they're not quality over quanity, though that's what I always say, yes, quality over quantity. But so I've realized, like these people give me everything I needed friends, and I don't even have time for the people that are my friends. They're always like, you're so busy, can you make time for me? Because of

everything I'm doing. So I just realized, Wow, it was an illusion that society was convincing me I needed more friends. You need to go to these things with people in the pictures, And now that there's no opportunity, I've realized I don't need that at all. You know, you've talked about how you would post these photos, but like they would be so manicured, even though they would just look

quote unquote candid. Yeah. I spent a lot of time trying to perfect my Instagram, especially in college, and make sure it looked like I was everything I thought I was supposed to be, a happy, skinny, pretty popular, um like just enjoying this lifestyle and being this girl that I thought, you know, you needed to be, and it was just so fake and it was such a disconnect with my heart because I remember just feeling like absolute um, just feeling really bad about myself for feeling really down

and finding a picture to seek those likes and those comments and and look at this little feed and think, Okay, well this looks perfect so you know, maybe my life's not as bad as I think it is. UM, And that also wore on me over time, just putting up a front and putting on a mask that wasn't genuine to me. And I think if you live yes, and if you live your life as someone else or something else, you slowly start to lose touch with who you are.

And I just I had to stop that. Okay, we have to take one more quick break, but want to come back. I want to talk more. Thanks social media and society's beauty standards. We'll be right back, and we're back. I love so much how just authentic you are on social media, and I love your TikTok because it is just like with everything going on the world, and especially on that app, it is just like, thank you real it's authentic, which is needed more. I'm really grateful to

hear that. And you've got to get on the app. Girl. It is where it is at right now. I mean, I just it's we can talk. We can talk about it after. But TikTok is just a game changer. And the people I've been able to connect with, um, the way I've been able to explore my creativity, you know, I've found that in the message I want to share. It's given me so many ways to communicate it. And you are right, there's a very toxic diet culture on TikTok, a very a very clear standard of beauty presented on

that app but you're breaking that. I think it is important and um just I've been having a really great time on it, and it means a lot to know that, you know, you're enjoying the TikTok, So thank you. Something that I've also just realized, there's just this gap in what societal beauty standards, which is something that I want to talk to you about because you know, there's so many trends with it. You know, sometimes it's the like skinny stick figures what's cool or beautiful, but then it's

the curse. But then it's like a normal body. Why do you think that's something that's still so prevalent in society when people are like, just don't look like that. A lot of people, Well, we've just continued to give attention to our appearance. First off, that's something that as society we value. Um and I'm not saying that that's what I value, but as a whole you just grow up, especially as a female, being told to look a certain way, present your look presentable. Um. And then there's all these

like adjectives people to attribute with that which is dainty, poised, feminine. UM. I know, feminine was a big issue for me because as an athlete, I didn't feel feminine. I felt sweaty and bulky and strong, and even strong isn't something we would associate with a beautiful female. So you have those narratives. And then also we see the people who have the power and the followings promoting image and you know, without

naming people, but I'll name people Kardashians. You know, we see them most of the time very image focused, and that in turn sends a message to the people who follow them and consume their content, which is millions and millions and millions, that that is important and also this is what you should look like. And we need to just start shifting the attention and the message, especially for

those younger generations, about what the priority is. And you know, I don't think that the Kardashians wake up in the morning and set out to make girls feel bad about themselves. I They're also normal people like us who probably fallen victim to the same standards and pressures, but they're under a spotlight and so whether they like it or not, they are setting the standard UM and we follow that.

And so it's important to pay attention to where we're putting that focus, what we're trying to become UM and then create our own notions around that. I know you've talked about how you know from all these societal standards, it made you want to change your body so you either wouldn't eat or you know, and that's something that

so many people are facing. It's become kind of have you seen those like TikTok's where it's like they make light of it or they make it like normal something they're so harmful because you know best, like when you're an athlete, especially a student athlete, you have to bulk up to play the sport. That's just what happens. You

gain muscle, um, you gain strength. How do you think we can as a society change that to make that still beautiful because it is It comes with each person kind of claiming that power back and that authority to be the person who validates themselves, be the person who says this is okay and I don't need you to approve it, and especially for female athletes, you know, we need to remember that. And I made it to talk about this yesterday, and it was just saying, you're not

there to look the prettiest. You're there to play the best and ball out and do what you've been training to do, not look the cutest in your uniform. But we've once again in this society had people put such a focus on our image that even athletes, female athletes me, I wasn't focusing on how strong, fast, um good at

my sport. I was instead I was thinking about how I looked too big, how I didn't look good enough, um, how the muscles I had spent months building and developing on my body were ugly um, and just ignoring the fact that that was a mark of hard work. To get muscle on your legs is hard to do. Yet in that process I despised that growth. Wow, Unfortunately, it's so hard to be a girl today, Like, it's so hard, um. And I honestly love what you've done with your nonprofit.

I love that it's listed as a resource in this book. So for those who aren't aware of your nonprofit, please please share it. After struggling with my mental health freshman and sophomore year, I delivered a TED talk in the spring of my uh college time I've never time talked abou summer year, and it was called The Hidden Opponent, and it basically explained the stigma that athletes face when it comes to mental health and the mental health issues in sports that often go UM, not talked about or

not addressed. And after graduating, I continued to speak, and I traveled at a different college campus is and I spoke. But I realized that there's so much more than just me and my one story. There's hundreds thousands of athletes who experience these SAM struggles. So I wanted to create a community, a platform where we could amplify the stories of those student athletes and also create a community together

UM to kind of combat that stigma. And so it's called The Hitting Opponent after my TED talk, but also because I think, you know, I just love that that idea that we're facing a competitor. We have another opponent, but this one you can't see. And it's really been

special to develop this group. IY have an amazing UM team of people who who helped Ben Ruvo as a baseball player in college he's our president, and all of the team is made up of current and former student athletes, and we have a Facebook group with hundreds of athletes. So it's really it's really special, and I'm so grateful that Kobe supported it and that we can be a resource in this book and anyone who reads it and

is struggling can come our way. Just starting a nonprofit for this is so important because, like you've talked about, it's not talked about. Yeah, it's not at all. So I know you've been asked would you write a book? You know, I've seen your answers. You even asked a lot. But I'm going to change your research. I did, so what I'm going to change up the question would you

ever make a documentary? I mean, I would love to participate in that or do that, and I am willing to share my story in any capacity and hopes that it helps. But speaking of that, there's an incredible documentary coming out any day now called The Weight of Gold with Michael Phelps and all these incredible athletes who talk

about the mental health issues of Olympic athletes. Um so that sounds that is something very similar to what you just asked coming out too, and then also just big not to Kevin Love who you've interviewed, but just for him to kind of champion this conversation just creates waves, um for him to complete it's incredible. It's also this it's this stigma that all of this is a stigma, and I just don't understand it because if everybody goes

through it, then why is it not talked about? Yeah? No, I agree for sure, and I think the stigma has already changed dramatically, which is incredible, just from my freshman year of school where it was at too now my first year out of school, looking at where the conversation is, um, I really feel like it is super prevalent in sports right now. And that's that's awesome that in just four years we've seen such great lengths. I agree, And I also think that you have persevered not only through the

transition but also to get on the team. So for someone who has been rejected, what advice would you give them to Kno, give up? I believe that when it comes to what should I give up or not? And I almost want to refer to that room as more like move on, because you know there aren't people that do have to stop for certain reasons. And you never want someone to look back and think they couldn't do it or they wouldn't strong enough, because it's a difficult

decision to stop something. I would just my advice would be to really look inside yourself, forget the external noise, what your parents say, what social media said, what you said in the past, two people, whatever it is you're dealing with, and think, you know, is my heart in this? Do I really want to do? I have more to give? And sometimes that answer is going to be no, and that's perfectly okay. And other times you might think, yeah, I got a little fight left in me and you

want to keep going. And for me, I had a little fight left in me, and I'm glad that I kept going. Man Like, I think I feel like if more people were as honest as you have been, just in general, I think the world would be a much better place. That is so sweet of you, and you are super honest too, so I'm glad that you get to host these conversations with all these incredible people and

bring that realness out of them. Well, thank you very much, And if you haven't already, please go purchase Ease or never Swans and don't forget to check out Victoria Garrick on her social media. It's just Victoria Garrick on all of them, right, yes, yes, yes, yes. And also go check out the Hidden Opponent. Yes, come to the Hidden Opponent Instagram or if you're a student athlete, join our

Facebook group. We definitely want you there. Thank you guys so much for listening to this week's episode of the Let's Be Real Podcast. If you have not already, don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment if you have any suggestions or just your thoughts on the podcast. Also, if you haven't already, don't forget to follow me on Instagram at It's Sammy J. That's I T S S A M M Y j A y E. And as always, I will see you guys next week. Buy