Let Him Go Barefoot is a podcast that dives into all things parenting and education through the lens of mindful awareness. Conversations aim to bring forward patterns, beliefs, and attitudes that shape our expectations and ideas about what it means to raise healthy children. With the blend of science, ancient wisdom, and intuition, we will explore ways to support, nurture, and connect with our growing children while also nurturing and expanding ourselves. I am grateful you are here.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Let Them Go Barefoot podcast. Today, I am talking to Erin Graham of EverLearning. Erin has an Instagram page, and she also has a website, and she's also... a co-host of a podcast called The Virtual Kitchen Table. We're going to talk about all of that today. But first, I just want to say hello, Erin. Thank you for being here. And we just want to dive into your story.
bring up the various ways that unschooling has been a part of your life and especially through the teen years and young adult years. So if you will just kind of give us a little bit of your backstory. Sure. And thanks, Missy, for having me. I enjoy connecting with you over Instagram and it feels sometimes like lots of... you know, just like little short, um, direct messages and it's fun to, yeah, to kind of have a longer conversation. So thank you for having me. Yeah.
Um, so yeah, so I guess a bit about me. So I'm in, uh, I live in central Ontario in Canada and, um, For so many years, I've been used to saying I'm a homeschool mom, but I'm sort of not anymore. I am, but I'm not. It's been about a year, I guess, depending on how you how you look at it, as far as kind of my technical form. you know, home education years. I technically finished, yeah, like last June after, yeah, 20 years almost exactly.
and home educating for kids. So it feels like, you know, a bit of an identity shift for me. Although I still feel very much, I think because I'm so interested in continuing to. think about home education and talk about it. And really just kind of connected parenting as well, not just, you know, the school piece of things.
I kind of feel like I'm still carrying some of that identity. So it makes sense. It really does. I mean, you're doing it so long too. It really does kind of just become a part of your life and who you are and how you see the world. That makes perfect sense for me. And I'm, you know, I'm not too far behind you. I've got one at 17, going to be 18 in a few months. And the other one's already kind of sort of launched as people like to say. Yeah.
Yeah, I won't be far behind you. So I'm sure I'll be calling you up and being like, hey, let's talk. Looking for answers and finding, I just am still doing more questioning. did you find homeschooling or how did it find you as some people say? Yeah. Well, I remember when you first started your podcast, it was maybe your second episode because you're.
I think you had a really good one with your son. Was that your first episode? I did. My very first one was with him. Yep. He helped me get it going. Yeah. Yeah. So it might've been your second one and you kind of put a call out for stories and I think it was called like, when did you know or something like that? So, yep. Yeah, so I find that. And it was funny when I read that, because I think usually when people have asked me about homeschooling, you know.
They're asking, when did you know for your kids? Or when did you find out? Which I will get to. But I've always... You know, it's funny. I've always kind of known that there was something else there in the sense that I think I always questioned school. I just didn't know there was any other possibility. Like I didn't, you know, I didn't. grow up or know thinking that there was any kind of other format for going through childhood. So, you know, even as far back as kindergarten, actually.
I won't give you a super long story, Missy, but this might be relevant, even as far back as nursery school. So I think I was like... four, three, three, almost four. And I went to a lovely little nursery school. It was in the country. And I remember there were goats and a big sand table outside. And it was a really nice spot. Lovely, lovely lady kind of had it on her property.
It might have been kind of like what we think of now as forest school before the word was around. It was just this really nice little environment. So there was no negativity to that experience at all, except that... I just felt done with it after, I think I went for six weeks and then I was just kind of like, Oh, okay. You know, I've, I've been there now. What, you know, why do I need to keep going? And so that's always kind of been a joke.
with my dad that I was a nursery school dropout for no reason other than it had kind of like, it just wasn't serving any purpose. In my four year old mind. Right. And then in kindergarten, I would just notice things. And I, I, you know, I remember asking my mom, like, why do the kids all sit on the floor, but the teachers get chairs or.
I noticed like reading groups having numbers to them. And I noticed that people made fun of the kids that were in groups that had certain numbers or whatever. And it's not that, you know, it wasn't like a great. rebellious streak really at that time but it was just I noticed stuff right and I think um I always longed to get home and just
Um, I did a lot of pretend play like solid. I did a lot of solitary pretend play and I did a lot of just like creating of stories and worlds. And, um, that's really where I wanted to. be was to just get off that bus and kind of create like ideas and stories and things like that. So it's not so much that I was thinking about it at that time, but
When I first heard that there was a possibility that, you know, homeschooling was a thing and I, you know, maybe kids didn't have to be in school all day. It was a very fast sell for me, like almost within the 10 seconds that I heard. Um, you know, so my, uh, my eldest was like, I don't know, maybe two or three months old and I was out for a walk, um, with another mom of a, like from a baby group.
And she mentioned to me that she was planning to homeschool and that she had been homeschooled. And my mind was blown. I was just like, oh, you know, I was just even that she had been homeschooled was. interesting to me because i i mean i i heard i had heard the word Um, I guess I knew of a few people, but I didn't know anybody, you know? So to think that I had kind of developed a relationship with her over the past couple months, um, like.
I knew a homeschooled person and they were pretty functional. Right. It's like a little unicorn. You found one. Exactly. It was just really. And I think because she had had that background and because she was planning to homeschool, she was able to, like, she had community. Right. So she knew she had looked into some community, even though, I mean, her son was like a few months old, but she had done a little bit of research and.
So it became, I think, even a little bit more of a reality for me because, yeah, I was actually able to go to a couple of park days and some stuff like that and be introduced to people. So I think that was huge for me to, to, it wasn't sort of this far away idea that I read about, but I actually. Yeah. I could actually go and talk. Yeah. Like in the flesh, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, somebody really is doing this. We've heard about it or seen it or maybe even.
heard some stereotypical things about what homeschooling is or isn't and then you know you get this great option to see it in actually in play. And then it's like, okay, now this is an option for me. So at that point where you kind of sold, then you said, so it was like, Oh, we're going to do this. I was pretty sold. Yeah, I was. And I, you know, we did do a little bit of a, um, We tried very briefly a little bit of a nursery school.
options still knowing that for the long picture like the big picture we were planning to homeschool but just I had little ones and my older guy you know he's got an intense personality and he doesn't mind me saying that and you know like I really was hoping for maybe three afternoons a week that I could really have time, you know, with the baby and the, you know, I just hadn't.
an image of a little bit of a break, to be honest with you. Um, and it didn't really work out. It wasn't his, his cup of tea. And I think, you know, I'm. It probably would have, he was keen to go, but there wasn't the understanding of him needing some time to transition. So I think in hindsight, you know, having my, my oldest child. be quite self-determined and it's probably a really good thing.
that the timing happened at the beginning. I feel pretty fortunate actually, that I knew there were other options because, you know, by that point, another friend of mine, because I was kind of connected through to other people through. you know, a family resource center and some attachment parenting groups and stuff. And my other friend had older kids plus one, my, my little guy's age. And she just said, well, you know, don't worry about that. We're going to see the salmon swim upstream.
a whole bunch of us on Monday. Do you want to come? And, and we went and I was like, oh yes, this is, this is, this is good. This is what we need. So it was so helpful to have. really helpful to have that ready-made well connection, but just even the knowledge that it, yeah, that it was a possibility. Right. Right. I, yeah, I know. And I think that's so helpful for so many people to hear because.
when you don't have a template or an example to follow, it does feel very scary. It feels like those salmon swimming upstream, you know, like, are we able to do this? Can we do it? Or is it legal? Or am I going to fail my children? All the questions that come. rushing in. So you had four kids. Is that, am I, am I understanding you correctly when you're oldest in nursery school? Okay. Yeah. So yeah. So my second guy is.
has been part of our life since he was a baby. I was actually a doula for his mom, his biological mom, but he ended up being part of our family as well. So it's a little bit of a funny, like it's a little bit staggered, but... yeah it was a lot of it was like everybody was kind of two years apart so there's six years between my oldest and my youngest Well, I do want to talk to you about the fact that your kids are older because I feel after being in this.
In the virtual world, but also in the local homeschool circles, I'm just noticing a lot of younger families coming into unschooling over the last couple of years. And with that. So many are just thriving and enjoying the younger years and the play that's involved. And in some sort of way, it almost seems as if it's very.
organic and natural for a lot of families. And I do know that the transitioning time that typically comes around the early teen years, late, late tween years is on the horizon for a lot of people. And I feel like you offer wonderful insight about the teen years and the young adult years. And so I wanted to tap into that today.
Just sort of pick your brain and see what comes up for you in terms of things for parents to take into consideration and things to look forward to. You know, there's a lot of negativity around the teen years. in the typical society, you know, the terrible toddlers and all this stuff, and then the terrible teens. And, and I like to flip that over and say, well, you know what, that's not actually true. And here's why. So I, if we can maybe.
Talk about some things that you've learned along the way and also some things for parents to consider while they're... preparing in there's, you know, mentally, psychologically for the teen years. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, I think the first thing that, that I've, I have sort of jotted some different things down, Missy, but just even you saying that, that.
the first thing that kind of comes to my mind when, when you talk about some of the preconceived ideas maybe that people have about the teen years is that, you know, I think. I think the teen years are really, they can be an intense time. I think it depends so much on the particular... personality, right? And the particular person, we can't kind of group everybody together around that. But I think by and large, they can be pretty intense. But I think for me, if I can think about the word
You know, and this isn't even just the teen years. This is maybe just. the whole of, maybe this is the lifespan, but the word messy comes to mind for me because I think instead of awful, because I think that there is a lot of, um, trial and error and a lot of it's us it's us trying to figure stuff out it's not just that there are these you know terrible difficult children it's it's us as well where we're all kind of trying to figure things out
together. And I was having a conversation last week with a parent of younger kids and just sort of a kind of a mentoring conversation of sorts. And she was just, you know, lamenting. I think the things we all lament, like worrying, you know, it's some pretty intense dynamics with siblings and differences around things and just like this isn't working or I'm not sure what to do. And I think.
you know, at that age, but even, even into the teens, we just started talking about like, just like life is messy and messy doesn't have to be bad, right? It can be hard. It can take a lot of energy. But I don't think it has to be bad. But I think sometimes, well, I don't know, maybe you look at kids going to school and if things aren't going well there, there's somewhere else to place that.
blame for lack of a better word. And I think we kind of have that to measure it up against. But the other piece we have are just so many curated, curated pages and different, you know. blogs and pinterest and and instagram accounts and and not that any of us are trying to be phony but just even for the purpose of
privacy. There's only so much we can show about what's going on with our kids. So you're going to see the highlights of people's lives. And I guess where I'm going with this is I wonder sometimes if we set ourselves up for... an expectation of how things are going to be and thinking that if we homeschool or if we unschool, it's just, it's going to be smooth sailing and it's going to be perfect.
You know, I have to be honest, there have been some really messy, intense times here. But it's not because teens are awful. It's just because life is complex sometimes. We're all kind of trying to find our way. We're all trying to learn. And so I guess I just, I just kind of wanted to add that in because I do think there can be a narrative of, well, if you.
if you homeschool or if you unschool, it's, it's going to be great. You know, there's nothing to rebel against. So there won't be any, you know, I feel like we can hear that narrative. And I think that that can be true, but I. I don't even think that's what it's about. I think it's about just a willingness to kind of enter into that complexity and understand that we're all going to be learning. Not about...
It's not about anybody trying to be difficult. And I think the the other side of that is that like teens are so. they are so much fun and they are so amazing. And I mean, I'm sure you can relate to this yourself, Missy, like just the level of conversation that you can begin to have. about different topics, about, you know, whether those are serious philosophical things or whether you're just, you know, they're working something through maybe.
you're a part of that or whether it's just funny stuff, you know, like just being able to go and do fun stuff or, or joke around or whatever. They really are amazing. I think if you can let go of the, is this working or isn't it working? It's if you can let go of some of that and just kind of let it be what it is.
it maybe frees things up a bit from some of those expectations. Right. Well, and I love how you said it's messy, but not awful. And that's powerful because you're right. I mean, our lives in the social media realm. If you're in that world, it is a very curated, algorithmically led world. And so you are going to see all the good. And it's true, too, about the privacy piece that, you know, not.
Everything that goes on here is going to be blasted in the virtual world, again, because of privacy for our children. So I love that you brought that up and mentioned the fact that. Just because you choose to homeschool or unschool doesn't automatically mean that everything's going to become so easy and smooth sailing. You're still in relationship with other human beings who have their own ideas, beliefs, and wishes. They have their own temperaments.
And it's a growing, it's growing pains because we've never been the parent of teenagers before. You know, we've never, everything that we're experiencing as parents for the first time. or everything our children are experiencing for the first time, we're experiencing for the first time as their parent. So it's not like we've done this before and had a trial run, and now we can go back the second time and do it all so perfectly. But keeping that... thought and in mind as the parent of children.
is that it's a learning experience all the time. It never stops being a learning experience, which is one reason why I do like the name of your account, Ever Learning, because it is true. You're never not learning something or at least being exposed to things that...
are going to test you and maybe even allow you to pull back a little bit and pause and reevaluate. And again, it's the narrative that tends to... trump the teen years was it that they're terrible when it's like well actually can we maybe question what's going on in the environment or what's going on in their relationships with their family members, what's going on in the bigger relationship of if they're in school or their extended community, you know, why does it always have to be about them?
not being one way or the other, but instead maybe they're reacting to the world that they're within. And there's a lot of people that, and myself included, there's been plenty of times where my kids have done things that I've been like, oh. That is not about them. That is so about me and the way I have interpreted something. And so.
Sure, it gets kind of uncomfortable sometimes. And it's a little bit raw when we have to go, wait a minute, that's my fault. You know, and you have to apologize for your own behavior. And they were simply responding to something that we were doing. So yeah, I, I, I, yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. What would you say then would be some other, other things to consider? Cause you mentioned the communication part and, and I do believe that's mighty, mighty important.
As a parent in general, but especially as a homeschooling parent, you know, you want to, we tend to be with our kids a little more regularly and more consistently from littles until. they, you know, launch and move away. So where, where does that, how does that look for your family? Yeah. And I think that, um, I mean, I guess just carrying on this, this theme to degree of, of
how much we still have to learn as parents. So to your point, Missy, like we haven't done any of these life stages before as a parent. And I think especially these... kind of like teen years and young adult years. Like I know for myself, I worked with kids a lot and I believe you did too, as far as sort of maybe younger kids. I always did a lot of childcare and then I did paid work with kids, but my experience with teens was very limited, very limited to having been one.
Yeah. So just kind of having that undertaking, it really is kind of a learn as you go and gather information where you can, which I think. home educating parents are really good at doing you know kind of gathering all those all those pieces and just really having um a lot of humility like you had just mentioned something about kind of thinking to yourself okay hold on you know that piece is me or you know maybe coming back and doing some repair around that and I'm finding that at even a
a different level now that my kids are young adults. So my kids are ranging, um, my oldest guy will be 25 in a, in a couple of months and my youngest will be 19 in a couple of months. So It's kind of, especially the last few months, there seem to have been opportunities, we'll call them that, coming up where they've been able to express some stuff that, you know, that...
came across to them in a different way that I that I might have meant it or you know just pieces that I flat out missed the mark on and not in a kind of let's do battle kind of a way, but just stuff coming up and me really being able to have the humility and that doesn't always come.
in that first second, right? It's like, you know, we, I, I think, you know, we, we work pretty hard at this parenting thing. And then you kind of have somebody going, well, you know, and so it takes me a minute to try or a minute or longer to try to imagine it right from their perspective to kind of. And so for us, there has been, as you said, kind of some acknowledging like, hey, I missed the mark here. I didn't. think about this, I was maybe acting more from a place of what
people, I wanted people to think, or I was afraid people would think, then I was in your best interest. Like we've definitely had a conversation like that recently. And we've also had some time to they're kind of at that maturity level where I can sometimes give them a little bit more context about stuff where it's kind of like, it might've seemed this way to you, but let me.
Let me kind of explain the bigger picture of why this particular thing kind of flowed the way that it, the way that it did. So what I'm finding is there's just this, just this like more mature level of communication. that is happening and yeah it's it's there's just a willingness to listen and on my part i think um a huge part of this is just our own personal
work, our own personal accountability, getting curious about why we feel a certain way. I mean, I think that the teen years are a really intense time for parents. of probably parents in general. But I think when you're homeschooling, and particularly maybe when you're in more of an unschooling end of things, it's, I don't know, it can feel like a lot of...
external pressure as far as what we should be doing, what our kids should be doing. Even if we have let go of some conventional ideas or timelines. others in our life might not have. So there's, I mean, I think we have to give ourselves some grace as well, that we're simultaneously supporting our kids and really trying to help facilitate.
their goals and respect their timelines. And we're also often, it's like the noise gets a little bit louder again, or at least that's what I found. Like I found that initially the decision to homeschool. there was quite a bit of questioning, like quite a bit of, you know, and then there was a period of time where people kind of let it lay for a bit. They're kind of like, Oh, okay, this is, you know, this is what they're doing or whatever. And then it kind of wraps up again.
At least, you know, that's what I've noticed for myself and quite a few other people I've spoken to. There's this sort of like high school or pre high school ramp up again, as far as. you know, some of that pressure from the outside. And then I'm finding it again. I, you know, I kind of had always thought, okay, you know, we finish our formal years and...
I can move back into the box. People will, you know, we can have normal conversation without worrying about getting all the questions at Thanksgiving or whatever. But I actually haven't found that. I have found people still have really strong ideas about what kids should be doing or young adults should be doing. So I guess, I mean, I just say that to say that I think it's so much of our own work.
And that's going to be, you know, our relationships with our kids are going to reflect whether we do that. work or not. And I'm not meaning to make that sound like a pressure thing, like you have work to do. It's just that ongoing awareness and yeah, just kind of willingness to self-reflect.
Yeah. Well, you know, you made me laugh because honestly, I remember when the kids were younger and I felt like I had it nailed down. I'm like, I've got this parent thing. I understand this. I know who, what needs, what, when, where, and then they would switch and they would change. would happen and they would like learn a new skill or they would just grow in a way that was unexpected and then it was like oh my god okay i have to relearn how to be a parent of a 10 year old now and then
Yes. You know, and then all of a sudden they would switch again. And then there was like, now we're almost in the teen years and then I have to be a parent of a teen. And, and I, I mean, it's kind of funny, but at the same time, it's like, why are there always so many questions around? doing things a little differently. And, you know, here you are with grown children who have gone through, as you said, like more of the academic years and they're kind of doing their thing and yet still.
Because they did it differently or they're doing it differently now, there's questions about, well... you know, aren't you supposed to do this now? And I laugh because I've had that same thing too. Like, okay, well now they're officially graduating from high school. What about this? What about that?
You know, I mean, I'm always a fan of just look at the kid in front of you, you know, like there is a lot of noise and I'm not saying that has not impacted me. And there have been times where I've been just like, I wish people would just leave me alone about this. But at the same time.
I also look at it, as you said earlier about the arguing with your kids, you could go into argue or you could just see it as an opportunity. And I do that with people outside of the family unit too, who maybe don't quite understand what we're doing. But I'm like, it's an opportunity. If they're really genuinely interested, let's have a discussion. Let's talk about it. So maybe you can hear what we are doing and you can understand kind of where we're coming from.
So that then you have a clear understanding and then you also don't have to move forward with. these holes in what you think is happening, you know, and I feel that way with our children too. So it's again, like going back to that conversation and Hey, I'm sorry. You know, I actually thought I was doing it this way, but you interpret it this way.
and i and that's true too with um with um when they're younger they might have thought something was one way and now that they've become older had more life experience are more mature their brains have developed you know they actually are unable to have a deeper, more sort of adult-like conversation, you give them, as you said, more context. And then it's sort of another light bulb goes off and they're like, oh, wow, I really didn't know about that part.
And that's the part I love of the teen years and the young adult years is that you do, I mean, here you've had this child this whole time and they've been changing and evolving. And now you can see them in a way. That's almost like eye to eye. Not that you weren't looking eye to eye before, but it's just different. And I think that they also have life experience and have been around enough to be able to see how.
families operate and other teens operate, that they have a bigger perspective of what is true and right for them in their world now. That's been a... a wonderful thing for me as a parent, you know, who chose something differently and also has a background in education, which is kind of like some people think I sort of abandoned my studies and my abandoned my.
the world that I was originally set out to do. So yeah, there's a, and that's on me, you know, that's kind of my ego being like, okay, I can actually say I did it. I did all right. But when they get there, it's very nice, you know, to say, hey, we did do it differently and it's worked out just fine. It's so true. And I'm finding that the older that they get, there's a little bit of a, like I had always heard.
And I think I've said it myself about teenagers and just this idea, not said with any negativity, but just said with sort of. people will sometimes parallel it to the toddler years as far as just this great burst of development that's happening, right? So you, you have this kind of, um, moving toward, you know, individuation and just really getting a sense of.
who they are and wanting to kind of, yeah, do things more independently and then a real drawing back and wanting that nurturing and kind of coming back into the fold. for a little bit of time so to speak and just started this back and forth and i note i did i noticed that so much when my kids were teenagers but what i've noticed now kind of getting into this really later teen early 20s sort of period of time That is still there, but it's less...
How can I put it? I feel like when I feel like with teenagers, it's there, but there's still a little bit of a self consciousness about it, like a little bit self conscious about how independent they're getting. And then maybe a little bit self conscious about. you know, wanting to come back into the fold. And I'm finding it's really kind of cool right now. What's happening is that they are moving forward into their own independence, much more like with excitement.
And with confidence rather than, hmm, is this, you know, am I pushing too much here? Or am I going to be able to do this? They seem to be, it's like an exciting thing. of really stepping into who they are and trying new things. And at the same time, they are still really...
wanting that family connection. And I just think that's a human thing. Like, I guess I'm starting to see the whole lifespan a bit differently in the sense that we don't have to just disconnect from everybody. You know, they can become their own people.
and still really want that family connection, not just to parents, but even to just family friends and siblings and just kind of still hold on to the parts that... feel anchoring for them and so I'm noticing like a lot of nostalgia like just having a lot of which is fun for me right like you know going back and joking about things we did or
just remembering stuff from shows, like children's shows we watched and stuff. So yeah, there just seems to be like this really cool stage that, that I'm finding where it's like, that back and forth is still there, but it's like they're owning it now. It's not, I'm not sure if I'm explaining that well, but it's, it's, it's there, but in a different way, it's less self-conscious. So it's really powerful to have that family story, you know, that consistent thread that gets.
sewn as you live and learn together. And it's also really powerful to reflect and to reminisce. And, you know, it also solidifies their memories more. That's why I think it's important to put family photos up on the wall and have a family photo album where you can go back in time and see things. ensures that bonding and that connection and that sort of story of this is us, you know, and I think that.
than the teenage years and the young adult years. I know we're, we're doing that too. And as a matter of fact, that was something we're, we're in the middle of a move and I have already kind of decided in my mind, I'm like, okay, when we get there, this is what we're going to do. You know, I'm going to put like. I mean, I want to line the hallway with these photos, you know, from over the years because I want.
I don't want to pretend like that part didn't happen. You know, I don't want to just put it in a book in the corner. I want it to be evidence on the wall. And I think that's really a powerful feeling to create that, that family circle, if you will. Yeah. Well, so I do want to, I just, I'm going to ask for some practical examples if I possibly may, which is like, you know, what are some things that you did specifically that you really were conscious about with your.
children and you know even in the teen years or to help them determine their next steps did y'all have like a family meeting did you like or was it just one of those Like it really was kind of a daily exercise of checking in with each other. And, you know, did you notice I saw, you know, like you saw one kid was interested in this particular activity or this. skill or a job and then you kind of helped them find a place to utilize those skills or, you know, kind of what did that look like?
Yeah, yeah, sure. I, you know, it's, it's funny, the idea of the family meeting, I think I'm trying to think where I was having a conversation with somebody else about this. And I read about these families having these family meetings.
And so it wasn't that because every time that we've tried to do something like that, my kids have just looked at me like, well, what do you already know what I want? Why are we sitting down and talking? I think I had this idea that, you know, we sit down at the beginning of the year and my kids are like.
you already know i enjoy that why are we so this feels weird mom stop this is weird and i'm like okay never mind i just read it on a homeschool blog somewhere It was like, that was natural for us, although I know it works.
I know it works really well for other people. So, so by process of elimination, it wasn't that, but what I think, um, I mean, one thing I can think of that really stands out is that I, I kind of aimed for, and not really for the purpose, not really for the purpose of kind of helping them plan, but I think it just sort of lent itself to that is I. I always try to have quite a bit of individual time with kids. And I mean, sometimes that just happens.
naturally like I was just capitalizing on an opportunity you know like maybe one would have a sport or choir or something and then I would do something with somebody else while they were there or whatever so I did always try to kind of have that individual gauge with everybody um not we didn't have again we don't do really well with like
Like, I don't think it would have worked for us to have like those sort of dates or special kid time that never really worked for us. But I just kind of kept it in my mind that, you know, these were opportunities where I could really stay in touch on an individual level with so-and-so.
whatever so I do think that that time lent itself because I think I think sometimes there's some pressure when you're having like a face-to-face conversation that's planned about something but if you happen to be in the car every Monday night you know while you're driving somewhere or you happen to do the dishes together on a particular day or whatever
That's that more sort of parallel contact, I think, is when a lot of those conversations come up. But just as far as like really practical stuff. Yeah, we did. So my kids. particularly the, I'm going to say the younger three had, mentorships of various kinds. And not again, not in the sense where I was like, okay, we're all going to have a mentorship, but just that things came up. And so I would kind of have an eye out to opportunities.
So, you know, just to give some examples of those. So, for example, you know, one guy did a lot of he was part of a building crew at a at a provincial park. So did a lot of the accessibility like the. the forest paths, the boardwalks in the forest and stuff like that. Another son of mine did a woodworking mentorship for. Probably from the time he was 13, actually, until he was 20, he worked with a carpenter.
And just did a variety of a variety of things. So there were some hands on things like that. And there were also some sort of like leadership opportunities that they were part of. And my daughter's been part of. some wildlife conservation stuff the last few years, which has been really, really fun. But you know, it's interesting because sometimes I will, I would look at those interests and still in my mind, I was like,
okay, this could pave the way to this. And, you know, nothing has paved the way exactly the way that I thought it would. But I can look back and see threads of that. in, in what they're, they're doing now, not necessarily because they had a mentorship, but, you know, just anything that we spent time doing, or I exposed them to, you know, I think we want as parents, it feels so much.
clearer to imagine a linear path right it's like oh yeah we can do this and then that will give them experience to for this job or to apply to this program or whatever. And not that they haven't been useful. They absolutely have been, but you know, it really, those things have just been a piece of. who they are becoming rather than quite as maybe straightforward as i imagined kind of originally so i think you know we always just kind of have that have that open mind of where things um
of where things go. And I think I did. I don't think that they felt pressured. They were things they were interested in. They were things we talked about. They were things they asked for. But there's still that expectation that I think we can build our minds around where are things going to lead. And then I'll just say quickly, another practical thing that comes to mind.
If they had something where they were wanting to apply to a post-secondary, like a university or a college, then that was me helping facilitate that. you know, you've probably, I'm sure people have heard that backwards planning sort of idea with younger kids. And it's really the same thing, right? You're working, you're working your way.
Like, actually, I guess it's not quite the same thing, but it's the idea that you're working your way backwards, right? So this is my goal. And, you know, what, what. Is there a prerequisite course or a number of courses that I need to apply for this? Right. Yeah. Or that would put me in good standing or whatever. And so. You know, that was kind of an interesting process for me because, you know, some of those, like the way things work in our province, we don't have really any.
homeschool regulation. We just didn't go to school. That's literally all we did. There's no regulation at all. That's been a good thing. I certainly wouldn't trade it. But I do think that the slight trade off of that is that they almost ignore us. And so when it comes to applying to things. They do have, it's not that there aren't homeschool routes, like there are some programs and degrees have different opportunities, but really the easiest thing to do is just to try to get those prerequisites.
and apply as a mature student. That seems to have been for us the easiest thing to do. So I guess, where was I going with this? Oh, just in kind of, we had some times that looked unpleasantly schooly. because they needed these courses and, you know, and so it really was me taking a deep breath because
some of the stuff didn't make very much sense, right? You're stepping out of this really natural, authentic learning and woodworking with a carpenter and doing all this stuff. And then you're, you're, you know. aiming for grades and sometimes the assignments don't make much sense and well we all know right we all know how things work oh yeah system it's hit or miss and so for me it was also like not
kind of projecting my own irritation with that onto them. So, you know, I really tried to take kind of a... you know, lighthearted partnership roll around stuff where, um, it's almost like if things were not making sense, it was kind of like us against the course. Or, you know, I was, I mean, I know that sounds awful, but it was like, oh man. Okay.
this doesn't make, I know, I don't know what they're asking here, but okay. And then when things were good, cause there were lots of good things about some of the courses. That's the other thing. We can't paint everything school as negative. They learned tons of stuff from some of the, the.
those prerequisite things they needed to do for, you know, for what they wanted. And so for that, it was like having fun together. Yeah. I think the power there is that it was, it was buy-in from them, you know, that. And I've told my kids very directly, you know, it's sort of a game in a way. And there you will find that there will be lots of requirements that really do not make sense, especially when you've been living your life in a way.
where your interests are able to lead you and then you're able to make sense of things that you need to do for those interests to then have a system that you now are jumping into where... You don't really have an opportunity to negotiate. You don't really have a person that you can.
communicate with to say, you know, what about this? How about let's try it this way? It's more like, nope, you're going to do it. This is how you do it. And I'm not saying that people shouldn't try because I do have found that if, well, my son. enrolled in the local community college. And he had some great conversations with some of his professors. And I've always encouraged him to ask the question, you know, if you're not sure, just ask the question.
Sometimes when you do that, people go, oh, wow, you really care about what you're doing and they want to communicate with you and sort it out. But at the same time, there's still things that you just have to do because. you want the next thing you want the next step. And, and again, like it's also not all bad or all good, but there are definitely great things within the context of.
of some of the structures that are already in place that you maybe weren't participating in before, but you kind of want to work your way towards. Absolutely. I think it's that idea of, you know, there's. There's the one angle of doing those sorts of things, which is as a means to getting to the next step. And I think when kids are motivated about the next step, then yeah.
kind of like you're saying, they're willing to participate in the means to get to the end. And then there are times where they're actually genuinely interested in the content. Like my daughter... When she did, it was quite a process to get into the course. That's a long story I won't get into. But anyway, once she got into, she was doing a senior English credit.
ended up really really diving into it like she was spent she spent an enormous amount of time on this course and again i think when you have kids coming from unconventional uh background you really see the differences in personalities right so what I had seen with my guys was more of like like they enjoyed some of it but it was kind of like yeah let's
let's get, let's go. Let's kind of get through this weekend. You know, they, they did it and they were fine with it. And it was what it was. Whereas with her, she was, um, man she was so interested in achieving and in getting a particular mark and you know she did get extremely high marks in it and that was important to her and it was it was funny for me to see that because
you know, I haven't been a person that's been pushing for stuff like that, you know, for that achievement, but, and it wasn't, it was just important to her. She was really interested in challenge, challenging herself and. So just kind of funny to see how different personalities kind of perceive that more sort of schoolish format as well. I haven't.
figured it out completely yet, but I'm sorting through this idea that, you know, and not to put people in boxes, but there is a very clear, very clear to me over the years. personality traits, if you will, or temperaments of kids when it comes to the homeschooling and unschooling world. And you have kids who tend to, in the teenage years, become more academic.
They just love that kind of stuff. They like to challenge, like you said, they like to challenge themselves. They're okay with the grades. They actually want to do well and take the tests and things. And I just think there's some kids that are built that way. I know I was built that way. That was me.
from an early age. I just loved reading. I love learning. I love studying. It's just who I was. And then I think there's the very hands-on kids, you know, they're just, they need to be making stuff and building things and being busy with their bodies in a way that.
Other people are like, yeah, I don't, that can, you know, take it or leave it. And then there's kids who I feel like are very much into like volunteer work, you know, and not necessarily activism, but partly sort of like that, you know, they just really want to be sure that. there's a particular interest of theirs that will take them maybe across the world even. And so it's really, like I said, I'm still working on it. I'm still trying to.
piece it together but but I but I think you know just what you explained I mean you saw that kind of within your own family and I know I've experienced that with my just two kids and and then I've talked to so many people and I've heard that over and over again that there's been like a
You know, even with one of the girls I actually had on the podcast, she was talking about her and her sister and how she was super academic from an early age, was reading all the books and couldn't read enough. And her sister was like, eh, I could take it or leave it. But she loved book, but she wasn't quite the same level. You know, it was just very.
interesting so I know that's just that again pay attention to the kids you know they will show you what they need they will tell you what they want and they will show you regularly with the way that they behave and how they interact with information and the world and, and others, what, what works for them and what doesn't. Yeah. Well, and something that, something that just comes to mind about that too, is just how.
trying to think how to articulate this. So my most probably, maybe who would have been described as the most sort of conventionally academic learner. So, you know, this is a guy who, you know, you would, he would just remember and be really into historical things or he would, you know, just my earliest reader. those sorts of things. Right. Just really pretty. I think if he had been in a classroom, um,
Yeah, today would have looked. Yeah, yeah. And easygoing, right? Just easygoing personality, but just kind of ate up information and really learned in that way. Now, interestingly, he's also pretty hands-on, but so. So, so it is both, but he has, he has had the least interest in what I would consider like conventional post-secondary education.
You know, the two that were maybe less academically focused were actually more interested in going and experiencing that. And I think a lot of that, because people do things for different reasons, right? So I think... the opportunity to live in residence and learn in a group. And you know what I mean? Like that social, that more sort of extroverted way of doing it.
That whole kind of experience was something that was a fit for them. So it's just kind of interesting sometimes because I think we can... So for me anyway, I, you know, you kind of think, okay, well, if this, if this is where this person's aptitude, cause I think you're right. I do see that too. These different sort of personalities and different aptitudes.
And it's just funny how we project that that will mean a certain thing as far as what they choose to do now. He, so he, he started working, um, I would say. almost right out of his high school years it's a little bit tricky because we had like the pandemic in there and there was a lot of open and shut it was just a bit weird right but he but within that structure um
By the time he was like 20, not even 20, like management approached him and said, you know, are you, what are you thinking? Like you're here full time. Are you planning to do, um, are you applying anywhere? post-secondary and he said like not there's nothing that's really Not at the moment, no. And so they asked him to be part of a management training. And so he's been doing that for a couple of years and he has now moved up into somewhat like a kind of a...
the next level up or whatever of management. Um, and it's doing some cool things, you know, he's going places and being part of the ordering and he's like, you know, they, they've kind of chosen someone to be his direct mentor. So he's still. using I think a lot of the you know communication skills he was good at and the math he was good at and all those kinds of things but he's not interested unless he can see a clear purpose in going and
sort of being part of that more conventional post-secondary way of doing things. And my daughter, who's my youngest, has just developed her own, it's quite... fascinating to me her own course of study like there's she has all kinds of things. So it's, it's art and illustration related, but she's got a real mix of like art business workshops and theory and art history. And so she's developed these, I'm trying to think what the word is.
like spreadsheets basically, but there's all kinds of, you know, she has her list of courses she wants to do. And it, you know, there's a, it'll say like in progress or. completed or not begun. So she has done all of this. It's, it's incredible, all these books that she's ordered for herself. So she's really working for the purpose of kind of supporting her passion and studying her passion, but she's hacking it. She's not interested in
But but those two would have been more academically inclined than the two that actually applied to post-secondary. So it's just it's just it's a I don't know. And I'm noticing that, too, just a lot of the kids that they grew up with. with homeschooling as well, it's a real mixed bag. And so you look at what kids are choosing to do. And sometimes it's like, Oh, okay. I don't, you know, but then if you, if you look back, you can definitely see some of those threads.
just maybe in slightly different ways. And also even within the homeschool and unschooling paradigm, there are kids who love the... the schedules. They want that structure, even if they get to choose and go in whatever order they want to go in, but they still like almost having a schedule. And I do think that's sometimes a misconception.
when with unschooling is people think, well, if you're unschooling, you're just, I don't know. I think willy nilly just live in life. And there's just, it's not chaotic necessarily, but there's just no rhyme or reason to it. When in fact. It really is about the individual kid and they're just going to create the space and go in the direction that makes them feel, I guess, most alive. And, you know, I had my daughter.
eventually came to me and was like, mom, I want to do this, this, and this. And so it was like, she wanted to learn these particular things. And she was funny. She was like, I need you to give it to me because I'm not doing it on my own and I need to do it. You know, and so she knew herself well enough. She's like, yes, I know what you're saying, but will you just like ensure that I am taking those steps and doing the thing?
And where I had the other one who like set his alarm clock, you know, and you just, you don't know. And you don't know until you're there. And even if you are there, it doesn't mean you can look in a crystal ball. You don't have a crystal ball to look at and say, they're definitely going to.
lean that direction or, or you're not, like you said earlier, it's not linear. You can't draw a straight line from what they're doing at 10, 12, 13 to what their future life is going to be. And we shouldn't, you know, we don't need to, it's not necessary. Not that you can't have a plan and not that you can't think a few steps ahead, but it really is almost limiting. It is limiting to yourself and to them if you say these things right here that you're doing will definitely make you do this.
And it kind of closes off opportunities for them. So I like to leave it open. I like to encourage curiosity and just trying things out. And you just don't know where it's going to go. And why would you try to predict it? Early on, you know, if anything, you're shutting doors for them by trying to fit them into a particular pathway. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think, too, some of the things that, you know, I think we talk about so much in.
probably thinking about it in the younger years, but even the early teen years, we, I know I did and people that I was homeschooling alongside certainly did. You think about these kind of like quant, I think, I guess I'd say quantitative things. So like, can they get into college? Will they be able to get and hold down a job? There's always the question about whether they'll be able to get up in the morning. That's that kind of question. So you kind of think about these.
kind of quantitative things like that. And what I'm finding so fascinating is some of the nuances within that, right? So for me, it started to become once I realized that yes, they can, they can go to college. then it kind of frees you up to look at some of the more interesting things. Like I loved looking at, you know, like my one son, for example, just watching him work through
situations that would come up. Like, just as an example, I remember the one year, there were a lot of like, group writing and group presentations that he needed to do at college. And he seemed to be the guy that like everybody would hand their piece in and he would kind of, you know, do the, get it ready the the kind of final big picture before the presentation and you know consistently there were a couple of people handing in fully plagiarized like he would look at it he's like
I'm pretty sure I can find that on the internet right away. And, you know, just making, making those ethical. So some of it's ethics, but some of it's also like personal. Like, you know, like, where's your bottom line, right? So if he can see that they're not going to change, like they're going to keep handing in plagiarized stuff, you know, is it.
Does he want to talk to the professor because he doesn't want to be part of something that has this in it? Or is there a point that you go, well, you know. My section isn't plagiarized. And so, you know, I'm not going to keep worrying about this. And there's just all that there's all that decision making to make right around the ethics, your personal boundaries. If you communicate to the professor.
What's your, you know, what's the best way to go about that? And I loved, I loved when we kind of got past those initial like quantitative questions, like, you know. And my other son, like listening to all the, the workplace stuff, right. And just the dynamics and the, I love listening to that stuff because that's really.
that's really I think where a lot of the relationships and connections we've had with our kids and the ability to critically think and think things through that's where it shines not just the getting of the job like not just can they get through a job interview or whatever. And so I think sometimes we have to check those initial boxes to really be able to see the fruit of what's in there. But it's...
I just find it fascinating to, to kind of, and it's hard. It's hard sometimes to step back and be like, you know, not. like where's okay so where do I just listen and then where do they maybe want me to engage and ask questions and then is there ever a time where I it would be really useful for me to offer my perspective. Right. So it's like growth for everybody, I think. Right. Yeah.
But I think I mean, I like that you brought that up to about the quantitative stuff, because, you know, I mean, that is real. It is a real factor in our society, in our modern day society. You know, I mean, we do have to have income. We do have to have. something that we can depend on and a way to use our skills. And I know a lot of the research and the reading I do about human behavior and the psychology of us is...
You feel happier if you have something that you're working towards and or that you are doing something that you feel like is part of your purpose. And so the quantitative side of that would be, you know, finding that niche, finding that, taking those skills that you've learned over the years and applying them somewhere that benefits others. And then also as they get older.
watching them have interactions and building new relationships with people outside of their immediate circle and their extended family circle. And then being able to sit back and watch those people appreciate your children. It is the most satisfying. thing I can tell you as a parent of older kids is to have someone interact with your kid in a way that shows that they trust them, they appreciate them, they respect them. And, you know, you feel, I feel as a parent.
So grateful for that, to know that, you know, they've been able to live in a way that honors their evolving and their unfolding. And now they're living that way as an adult where they're. recognizing the importance of that outside of the family. And also... recognizing where they don't want to be. And they have that strength to say it because they've been able to practice it within their family unit for so long. And so they know what it feels like to be honored and loved and appreciated.
And so when they go out into the world and they're not experiencing that, they also know they have a lot of discernment, you know, if you will. Yes. Oh, I agree with that so much. And I think that's definitely where a lot of growing edge has been for me is. partly maybe the era that I grew up in, but partly maybe just who I am. Um, but just that expectation for me of just, you just kind of keep going, you put up with stuff, you whatever, but that really.
To a degree, there's some of that in life, but just watching my kids balance that out with, um, no, this is actually my bottom line on this, or, you know, I'm not going to be like. I'll be reasonable, but I'm not going to be pushed around. Or times when stuff has happened, you know, in a workplace or with friends or whatever, and it's not great, but they seem to be able to move forward without.
taking it on as their whole, with their whole beating, right? Like they can kind of let it roll off. And I, yeah, I really, I like, I like seeing that. I, I relate so much to that.
Yeah. Well, before I let you go, I don't want to let you go yet, if that's okay. Because I really, one of the things I wanted us to talk about was the fact that, you know, People may hear about unschooling or homeschooling and believe that the only way that you can do it is if one person stays home all the time and another person works full time.
And I've myself worked here and there and had odd jobs and tutoring and things like that throughout the whole time that I've been homeschooling my kids. And I know that you have had a job that you enjoy, and I would love for you to share with us about that and then how that has looked for your family.
Sure. Over the years. Yeah. Yeah. And this is funny timing, Missy, because just a couple of days ago on Instagram, I I've done a couple of pieces of writing about this, which I never have before. Like I've never, I've never. Um, I maybe mentioned, you know, my work in passing, but I have never actually kind of put to, uh, words, um, yeah, kind of the balance. And so.
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's good timing. Cause it's been on my mind a lot the last little bit. Yeah. So, you know, initially I had very much. wanted to be a full-time, I'm going to say a full-time parent, like a full-time home educating parent. I knew I would need to work.
sort of a little bit right around my husband's schedule or kind of figure some pieces out that way. So I knew there would be a little bit of part-time work and I wanted to do that work. It's not that I didn't want to do the work. I just. wanted to be with my baby more than I wanted to do. It wasn't a reflection of not liking the work.
So, yeah, so I kind of started out very part time, but we had a situation, kind of two situations that happened one on top of the other. And one was a really sudden job loss that my husband had that was. It was unexpected. Something happened with the company and it was an unexpected, highly unexpected situation and very sudden. And then we had a very unexpected and huge.
expense that happens after that as well. And, you know, in looking back at it, I realized that probably a lot of people would have... I don't know, maybe put their kids in school. It's interesting to look back. I don't even think that ever occurred to us. We were a few years into homeschooling at that point. Yeah, that was never, we just kind of decided to continue to make it work. And really what we ended up doing, I started working a lot more. And then when, when he kind of.
started looking for work, like kind of getting over this job loss situation, we made a decision to each. continue in our field but very much do our our own thing so we both do independent contract work although we contract with organizations at times it's still it just felt like it would give us more um Well, less security, less security. Yeah, yeah, exactly. More flexibility, less security in some ways, but at least.
At least if we were going under, it wasn't somebody telling us the night before it was our own. You know what I mean? Right. Right. Gosh. Oh, that's so hard. Right. Like a little bit of agency there, at least. So what that has meant is exactly what you said. More flexibility. And yet oddly sometimes working a lot of hours because when you're working for yourself, it kind of never.
stops. So it's a weird balance, right? Or it's a weird sort of combination, I guess, is a better word for it, where there's more flexibility, but also sometimes a higher level of intensity at times. So, yeah, you know, one of the things that I that I said when I was was kind of writing this week for the Instagram piece, and it'll probably make it onto my blog at some point, you know.
I guess just to say one of the struggles I've had would be around identity because I really did continue to see myself. as a full-time parent, even though I was working a lot of hours. It was just, I never quite integrated that fully, I don't think, into kind of who I was or what I was doing. But what I found hugely... helpful, like on a practical level, was the fact that I had a really solid homeschool community. We did. And I know not everybody has that.
So I just, you know, I'm really aware of that, but that was really, really helpful for me because there were a couple of other moms who were working part-time. We did a lot of trading off. And it was a trade-off that the kids really enjoyed because really it was like... a playtime for them it was it was right an opportunity right to go to their their friends houses or to do whatever or if there was a field trip somewhere um we would take each other's children or whatever um
Now, it's not perfect. Kids don't always want to do what we need them to do or, you know, you know, somebody's not feeling very well or whatever. Or there are sometimes dynamics a little bit between. kids and families. But if I look at the big picture of it, it was really an incredible partnership to be able to do that and to be able to trade off like that. And I think...
You know, I there were pieces of my work that really have benefited the kind of my parenting and my my homeschool experience and vice versa. I think there's so many skills that we build in our. our parenting and our time with our kids that are very, very transferable, you know, into those other roles. So I do see a lot of kind of back and forth there that was really helpful as well. But I do think the key thing for us was...
having that sense of community. And so, I mean, I do hear homeschool families. lamenting that sometimes, not being able to find that community, not just for the purpose of working, but just in general. And I think, you know what I would say?
Missy and I don't know if I'm just getting old maybe I'm not you know but I what I do notice I notice a difference and maybe it's an online versus an in-person difference but I know for us it was it was a bit different, I'm going to say in air quotes back then, in that we just sort of all worked together because
we needed to. So it was kind of like enough kids that we could get a group rate on swimming lessons or enough kids that we could get a group rate at live theater or whatever. And so we really worked. together. And we kind of, and so my kids were friends with all sorts of different people and all sorts of different families, as was I. And I think the world was less.
siloed kind of and less politically divided and less. And so I don't even know. I don't know because I don't have in my same community, you know, young kids, but. I do. I am glad that we just, we just connected with people and they were often quite different from us or, you know, whatever, but it was. we all just kind of hung out and made it work. And I'm so thankful that we did that because I do think that that gave us a lot of just really natural support around the, the working piece.
I'm not sure if I've really answered your question, but that kind of came to mind. No, no, no, you definitely did. And I want to reiterate the importance of just meeting people where they are and being out in community. You can't... This is a, this is a hill I will die on, which is that I think we all have more in common than we have different. And I think unfortunately what happens with our virtual world is we highlight the differences and we.
stop seeing the human and the fact that they have needs and wishes and trials and joys, just like the rest of us. And they also have a desire to be seen and be in a community with people. And I'm with you. I mean, I was part of the homeschool world way before Facebook was around. We used to do Yahoo groups and I had no clue who anybody was. I didn't know anybody's.
party affiliation or favorite song or anything about anybody. We just saw each other as like, you have a child. I have a child. You're homeschooling. I'm homeschooling. We like to take our kids to the park. We like to go to nature museums. You like to organize this kind of stuff. I like to organize this kind of stuff. So it was everybody, everybody's strengths were actually highlighted instead of the differences.
I would encourage people, anybody who's listening to this, to get back to that as much as possible and to remember that, you know, you will probably, sometimes you might, you're somebody who you might think would be your biggest. not into me, but the opposite of you might actually be your, your favorite person. Yes. And, and so, yeah, I think take that risk and be curious. I mean, we're here, we're here as.
unschoolers always talking about you know curiosity and looking at things not necessarily as burdens but as opportunities and um it's messy but it doesn't have to be awful and You know, those sorts of things like that's true in our adult relationships as well. So the community piece is really vital. And I, you know, I know that's true for us as homeschoolers all these years. And I know that's been true.
or many, many people I've talked to over the years that, and it doesn't have to be a huge community. That's the other part. It doesn't have to be 75 families. It doesn't even have to be 20 families. It could be four people that you know you can count on and depend on.
It might even be better if it's not 75, right? Because you're getting to know people better. And I just, sorry, Missy, I'll say one more thing on this kind of like working in community thing is just that the other piece of that is that many people. that are homeschooling, uh, you know, they're, they're in chapel.
if you're homeschooling, you're, you're in tune with your, you're spending a lot of time. You guys are in tune with your kids. But I think too, we have sometimes, you know, kids that have various sensitivities, kids that maybe, um, you know, I, I had two that weren't keen on being away from me. Like there were lots of different pieces there. And so finding that, finding a couple families who they can just start to feel almost like it's a second.
family for them. And also just finding those people that understand that and kind of, you know, getting to know people to the point that they know when the point is to give you a call or They know how to help comfort that child. And I think that that is probably, I don't know, because I've only ever lived the years I've lived, but I feel like... You know, our society has gotten so far from like extended family and natural community and kind of having.
a few other people that can jump into that parenting role as needed. And that's what I think that building community can, can possibly do for people and kind of. not just even around working, but if you just need a break or you get sick or whatever, it's just so nice to have.
that camaraderie with a group of people. Right. Yeah. When I think that's, you know, I mean, that's kind of what school used to be for people. It was a community gathering place, you know, parents were involved. Teachers were involved with the parents. Everybody knew everybody. And so school was an amazing resource for gathering together for a common goal and a common good. And I think that's in my mind, I feel like.
our pendulum is swinging in our society now because we're breaking apart from this school that's become this large, very extended, very intrusive space, which is like, you know, it. parents don't really it's like school was part of family life and now school has become life yes and and it's it's it's a pendulum has swung too far and so I think
what we're seeing is a reaction and a response to that. And it's like, that's just gone way too far and we need to bring it back and let the family kind of be the circle again. And then we'll add school in instead of it being all school and a little family added in. Um, so I think that's what we're seeing.
And I would encourage families to do that. Just step out of your comfort zone a little bit. You'd have to in order to start making those connections with people. And the reason for homeschooling is not to isolate yourself and to not. be with people at all, ever. It's more to have a little bit more say-so and also a little bit more control of your schedule.
And where you're spending your time and when you're spending your time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think. Exactly. Well, and what I think you and I both share is this. you know, just wanting more and more people to have as much choice and opportunity as they can around the way kids are learning and where kids are during the day and what the different options are. So I do think that...
the more talking we can do, you know, it doesn't just have to look one way. But being honest about what some of those challenges are as well, but. Yeah, I think if we can move past the idea that it has to just be this particular structure, hopefully that opens the door for more families and for more kids to be able to. kind of have the kind of learning environment that works for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Well, I want to touch on, if we can just briefly, your...
podcast of the virtual kitchen table that you started with Haley of taking a kinder path and Ashley as mama, which she also has another Instagram account, right? Story time. She does. time shelves. I think it's called story time shelves. There you go. Okay. So, so can you just like, tell us a little bit about that and then, you know, how people can learn more? Sure. Um, yeah, so, uh,
Ashley Haley and I started the virtual kitchen table, which as you said, is a podcast, probably, I think we started recording almost a couple of years ago, but probably started putting episodes out about a year and a half ago. And. It's just delight. It's for me. I just find it delightful. I love to connect with them. So sometimes the episodes are the three of us.
Ashley, Haley, and I having a conversation about a particular topic. And then other times we will invite a person or two on to, you know, again, discuss a particular topic. So we've been very fortunate. to have you a couple of times, I think, Missy for a couple of different topics. And so really, I guess it's not so much of an inter, pardon me, an interview format as much as it is, you know, let's just look at a particular.
thing and and chat it through so you know i i guess the idea is to kind of have it feel like you're around a table just just talking about about stuff and so things kind of it's fairly um spontaneous things just kind of come up as they do but it's it's just been a nice way to deepen
I guess, kind of deepen things. And it's a little bit different than, than the writing I'm doing because it's an opportunity to get the back and forth and to get a few perspectives rather than me just kind of putting what I think. down on paper. So yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a lot of, a lot of fun to do so that the actual kind of the main link is just, you can actually find it on.
my website on ever learning. And then it's also, um, on various apps like Apple and Google and Spotify, and I think a couple of others. So yeah, you can listen to it that way as well. And we're actually thinking about, I think we're thinking about it enough that I can say this out loud. I think we're thinking about having some...
unrecorded virtual kitchen tables where instead of it going up as a podcast episode, people could just join us if they wanted and kind of talk things through. Like we could... talk you know just kind of pick a topic and talk about it and um i think the benefit to that would be that it's it's unrecorded it's not going online so it's just that opportunity to
maybe even speak a little about things that might seem a little too private to put quote on the air, but really kind of deepen that. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Because I agree. I think sometimes.
people feel a little more you know hold things closer to the chest if it's being recorded and shared with the world so I think that would be a lot of fun and really helpful for parents to sort through things and I do appreciate your what you offer because I have found even just the two times I've been on when I sit and listen to someone else's perspective about a particular situation or experience.
You know, it brings up things for me that I forget. You know, sometimes when you're depending on yourself to remember your history, it's hard. It's hard to. remember everything. And so you, you hear someone else talk about it and you're like, Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh, I forgot about this. So that it's a great, it's a great way to, to, to hash things out and to dive into. specific things that parents are struggling with or are interested about or want to learn more.
yeah yeah and sometimes we've picked topics they just kind of come to mind and we're it's like hmm will there even be much to talk about and like stuff like I think we did one on um like flow like the idea of flow and learning and we ended up talking and talking about that. Like it just, so you just don't know where stuff's going to go. It just flowed. Exactly. That's the benefit, right? Of kind of a, just a spontaneous conversation. Exactly. Yeah.
Well, thank you for being here today and talking about your experiences with your teens and your young adults and the things that you've experienced with them over the years. I know it's going to be really helpful to other families who are about to either be in that. part of their lives or who are there now and give them some things to think about to appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much, Missy. I really enjoyed chatting with you today and just.
you know, getting the back and forth is great. It's a topic I love. So thanks so much. Thank you for listening. To learn more about guests on the podcast and to stay up to date on how they are showing up to make the world a better place for children and families, please check the show notes.
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