Welcome to Be on Sunday, a podcast that is an extension of the preaching ministry here at Leamington EMC. I am Pastor Jonah Chitty and I am joined as always by Joe Joe, Pastor Joe Penner. On Sunday, Pastor Joe preached from Nehemiah 5 right. Yeah, I did. I just something just came to my mind as you said that. So like we have to be, we have to be careful, I guess as pastors. I know like, I don't know, you probably wrestle with this sometimes too.
Like some people, people will text me and they'll be like, hey, Pastor Joe and I'm just like, Joe is great. Just just Joe is just fine. It reminds me of something that John MacArthur said years ago. He's very well renowned pastor. You know that many, many people know him and he had just.
He's he's sort of well known. Sort of well known, like some people may know, may have heard of him, but he had just said he had just said, you know, talking about this in a passage that specifically says like he was condemning the Pharisees for going around like wanting to be called rabbi and teacher. And he says you shouldn't desire that. And and John MacArthur talking about that just said, you know, Jesus was good for Jesus. And so John is good for me, you know. So I'm Jonah.
I'm not saying that, you know what? And I, and I, I say that to also say I know that some parents like are wanting to teach their children to like learn to be respectful and people are trying to be respectful. And so I'm not saying that to be like, you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying I always try to come back with that and be like, you know what, Joe is just fine. You know, we're just. Joey. Joe. Joe. Anyway, we all have J names. Yeah, we do. Joe, Jake, Jonah.
Yeah. So anyway, that was good. That's a good segue. In the NEMI 5, you think he was like wanted to be called like like Governor Nehemiah. Governor Nehemiah, I don't, I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, really. Like, that's a good point. Like nobody goes around saying hey, bricklayer, Bricklayer Pete. Yeah. Oh, whatever. It's like or. Even if if you're like ACEO or a supervisor or a manager, like nobody, yeah, nobody says that. Like, hey, Manager Bill, you
know, nobody does that. That's a good point. So I'm sorry, Joe. I'll never call you Pastor Joe again. Never, ever again. No, you're never. You'll forever now be known as Joe being silly. All right? You did preach a you did preach a sermon. Yes, Sir. On Nehemiah 5, and you named it. Hang on, not remember the Titans? That was your opening illustration. We are one body. Let's live like it. Would you put an exclamation point at the end? Maybe I should have? OK, but he didn't.
I didn't. Yeah. So we are one body. Let's live like it. Give us a rundown of what you had for your outline. Yeah. So essentially in this chapter we have infighting, we have division from the inside, right, which is very different from fighting from the outside. We've had what we've had the sorry to interrupt you there, but to get us in the context of Nehemiah, we have experienced lots gone on and they started construction on the wall. They have experienced some outside opposition.
Now we face Yeah. Internal opposition and and they're beginning to to fight against one another, right? Maybe they don't see it that way, but but we see this sin sort of going through the the body where people that are poor people that are not very well off and are struggling, are being oppressed by those who are wealthier and have the opportunity to take advantage of them, which goes against God's word. And so they're not acting like
one body. They're not living like like one people and they're taking advantage of each other. And so that's where I tied in. And I use the opening illustration you alluded to the remember the Titans, you know, these high schools that were brought together, there was segregation, blacks and whites at different schools. But now they were forced to integrate and they combined the school and the football team was made-up of white and black
players. And the biggest opposition they faced was internal struggle, the fighting with each other. And you know, the scene where they meet at the Gettysburg Cemetery and and the coach delivers this legendary speak out of speech. I don't know if it was if it was a real thing or not. I don't know the movies based on a true story. I don't know if that scene is like accurate or not, but at least in the movie. Played well. Yeah, and they played really
well in the movie. They come to the, the cemetery in Gettysburg and, and it's a reminder of, you know, the, the, the American Civil War where America was fighting against itself because they believe different things and, and, you know, 51,000 people died. And so this, the coach sort of delivers the speech. It's like if we don't come together, you know we're going to destroy ourselves just like they did. Let me ask you a question.
Did you, when you were watching the clip, you've watched the movie a long time ago. When you were watching the clip, did you cry a little bit? Not that, no, not this week. If, if I'd watched a whole movie, if I get into like the context of a movie, I probably would have teared up a bit. We were talking yesterday a little bit about this and I, I just mentioned to you that I don't really like movies that like play on my emotions and really like try to, to like get
me in the fields. And you said something like that you just don't like to cry movies. And I was like, you're right, I don't. So yeah, that's a really, it is a really moving scene. And it, and it really helps like figure out, hey, if we don't work together, if we don't like in, in this context, if Israel, if they don't work together, then they're they're they're going to destroy themselves from within essentially. So yeah, it's good. Exactly.
And that's exactly what was going to happen here, right? It's like they literally were going to risk like because, because some, because some commentaries that I read, I didn't, I didn't mention this in my sermon, but some commentaries sort of alluded to like it may have been the wealthy people that refused to join in rebuilding of the wall who were taking advantage of these people.
And so I know Jake mentioned in one of his sermons that I think it was the dacoits, the the leaders, the nobles of the dacoits refused to join in. And then but the people from Dacoa came. Right. But it may have been those leaders and we have no way of knowing, right? But it may have been, you know, wealthy people like that, including them, who are sort of oppressing these people. It's like, and so if these people are oppressed beyond a breaking point, right?
Like we can't eat anymore. It's like, well, guess what, now you can't. You die or you know you. Can't work. You for sure can't work if you can't eat. Right. So at a minimum, you know, the work of the wall is going to stop because they're going to have to go back to their fields, they're going to have to go back to their farms, they're going to have to go back to these things. But the the the longer picture, the bigger picture is like as a nation, they could have just
been destroyed and disbanded. But, and so it's that fighting from within that they needed to, to confront. And so my points in, in the sermon were the first thing is that we need to expose sin in the body. And so the, as the chapter progresses, it begins with the people who are oppressed, They bring this sin forward, they expose it, they sort of shed light to what's going on. They bring this to Nehemiah and expose what's going on. And so, and then Nehemiah confronts the sin, right.
So that's my second point, that therefore we need to confront sin in the body. And so Nehemiah then goes on from there to go and confront those leaders and confront the sin that that is exposed to him by these people and he goes and confronts it. And then the Third Point was that we need to be killing sin in the body.
And so there at the end of the chapter, we see Nehemiah's example that, you know, he avoided the sin, this specific sin of oppressing people by himself, being willing to be a servant. And so by doing that, it's like I, I was just mentioning to you that I think this is probably the point that I maybe took a little bit of the most creative license. But I think it is, I think it is true that he is killing sin by, by being a servant.
And, and he, he doesn't, you know, sin against the people and harm the people because he's, he's choosing to be a servant. And so I think, yeah, I think in all these ways, it, it helps us sort of the point like to be 1 body, right? If we're a body, we're one. And so when sin happens, we have to expose it and then we have to confront it so that we can seek
reconciliation. And then as we move forward, it's like as much as we can, we have to be killing sin in our lives personally and as a whole so that we can be pure and that we can truly be the body of Christ and and live like it so that the world will know that we're Christ's followers. Yeah, I don't think you, I don't think you'd stretched it. I I didn't even like when you mentioned that earlier.
I I I never even considered that you took license right to go further than you should have because I mean, you didn't you you didn't like say thus says the word of Joe. You're like you pointed us to other parts and and scripture that that told us gave us like examples from the New Testament, like you, you in that point. You went to James one or excuse me, James 41 to three and talking about what what causes quarrels and fights among you, right.
It is not it is it not this that your passions are at war within you. And so like, yeah, I mean, Nehemiah, dude had a good life before he came back, right? So I mean, he could have, he could have still had that life if he wanted to. And so like, you know, he he had to like, say, hey, we've got to give up these passions and, and like focus on this one thing. Yeah, so. Well, it I had wanted, I thought of using this, this illustration sort of throat throughout the sermon.
I mean, you know this, you know that I had a toothache a couple weeks back. And as I was thinking about the body, like the fact that we're one body, I sort of alluded to this in, in the first point that, you know, we we don't usually do things intentionally to harm ourselves, right? We don't purposely hurt our own bodies. And as I was thinking about this, you know, I, I had a tooth that was causing me just an incredible amount of pain for about a week, maybe not quite a week.
Joe had a rogue tooth. It was and I went in, I went into the, I mean, I, I couldn't sleep. It woke me up at night like no pain medication was helping at all. So I went to the dentist and he said I had an abscessed tooth. And so there's an infection in the bottom of one of my teeth. And you know, but as I was thinking about that as an illustration, I'm like a tooth is a very small part of my body. And yet when it, when it hurt, my entire body was affected, right?
Like, like it was hard for me to work. I would sometimes just lay down and like just, you know, if your hand comes up and like holds the side of your face, 'cause you're just in pain. And it just made me think like you expose K you, you've exposed the problem. A problem has been exposed. But now for me just to pretend like, well, whatever, I'm just going to deal with it, that that goes terribly wrong because now I'm in pain for like, I'd be in pain for weeks, right? In unbearable pain.
And so at some point, it's like you have to confront the issue. And that's like going to the dentist and coming up with a plan of like how we're gonna fix this thing. And, you know, it's like, I just felt like that was such a, like, such a good illustration. And hopefully that's helpful for people to see here because it's like, we're one body. And so, you know, like, like, like Paul writes to the Corinthians, when one part suffers, they all suffer.
And so like, we can't, we can't watch one part suffering and be like, oh, OK, fine, whatever. You just go suffer over there in the corner while I continue doing what I'm doing. No, we have to deal with the issue and we have to confront it. And you know, whether it's like weeping with someone who weeps or, or, you know, confronting sin and dealing with the issues so that reconciliation can happen. But that's what it means to be 1 body. But we often do do the opposite.
Why do you think that is? I, I, I mean, we're, our Western society probably plays a big role in that. The fact that we really have been conditioned to think individualistically, like, like everything is, is a, it's mine, it's my life, it's my money, it's my car, it's my house, all of these things. Is we've, we've thought so individualistically that it's like it's just when we're together on a Sunday morning that that we see ourselves as a
body. And, you know, maybe part of that is like, throughout the week, it's like we don't really spend a whole lot of time together. And that's true. I think that honestly, I think that's really the autonomy thing. Like we feel like we have personal autonomy, man. That that's, I think that's all I think you're hitting on it. We don't, we don't see ourselves as a body.
We we almost see ourselves as I don't want to say it out loud as a social club, like we just meet on Sundays or Wednesdays or whatever it is. We and it's not like I really have this relationship with these people that's like deeper than just like a cordial. Hey, how you doing? Well, how was your week? Did you eat any good food? Whatever? What are the other questions you have? Like, you know, even if it's painful things you're going through.
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. If you need anything, let me know. Those are, those are like, I don't know, they're like the same thing you would get at work, right? Or maybe less actually. Yeah, how that's, And that's a really good question to ask, right? How are your relationships with your brothers and sisters in Christ different than your relationships with just acquaintances, right? People that you work with or people that you know.
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. There should be a difference. Yeah, there should be. When we look at the book of acts, like what happens, right? Like they've shared what they had, right? They ate together. They met and ate together in one another's homes. They they were selling stuff to share it with those who had a need. You know, they were, they were, they were acting like the church. They were acting like one body. Right. Yeah, that was yeah, exactly. And Acts, they're they're,
they're there Pentecost, right? They're there at the time. And then they don't want to leave because they love what they're what's happening right then. But yeah, that's, that's, that is it. I, I think you hit it, man. You, you're like, you're like picking at this festering scar on my body somewhere. I don't know. It's weird. I'm just saying it's like you're, you're scratching an itch. You know what I mean? Like that's that is what it feels like.
Well, maybe we should take a moment to like talk practically about that because I, I think the solution to the problem is not that like, because we realized that like, you know, as a church, you know, we have, you know, somewhere around 600 people that are coming on a regular basis, including kids, adults, teens, kids, young adults, all like all the range, whatever. And so you can't, it's, it's not possible to have an intimate relationship with all of those
people. Like that is, that is physically impossible. And So what are practical ways that people can be the body of Christ to one another? I mean, I feel like we're beating like the same drum over and over again. One way would be, like, find a way to, like, be intentional about discipleship in like a group. Yeah, where you can, you can, you can have, like, deeper conversations. I don't know, man. Like that. I think that's probably the answer. I don't. I don't know what are other
ways. Well, I think, and I think that's faithful because we think about the church in Acts, right? Yeah, you know, Acts 2, Acts 2 tells us that 3000 people were added to their number that day. You know when, when? It says, oh, well, then they met. They met in homes, eating and, you know, sharing food. It's like, well, did all 3000 people. No, no they didn't. I think, I think it could be broader than just discipleship groups, though.
Yeah, I think like, like last night we had, we we watched the Super Bowl together. We invited some other couples and their families to come as well. And our kids invited some friends over as well. Right. We had it, we had, it was a fun time. We had lots of food, lots of fellowship. We watched, we watched a stupid ball game that the only person in the room that liked it was me and maybe, maybe some one of the other guys.
But like, like the conversation. We, we skipped the, the men and anyway skipped the halftime show and we made coffee in the kitchen. And so we just chatted. But I felt like, I felt like the conversation in the room and and granted, we, we like our work, like our work mine and your work is, is Christian, right? So like we, we're pastors or we're actually, we're Joe and Jonah. But, but so our conversation sort of naturally comes down to like what we, what we think about all the time.
But fortunately, the other people that were there, they also enjoyed talking about that stuff. And I think like I was thinking about like the idea of communal living is not the right word, but like friendship and like expanding friendship out to include families. And like then you then you get together frequently and you like you have meals together and around the converse and around the dinner table and around like the sitting on the sofas
together. The conversations are always about life and always about and they do include work. But like a conscious Christian will bring up how does the gospel affect this right? And what is what is it about like Christ and how he's working in my life? How does that affect what's going on in our lives right now? And I think that that came up, you know, those things came up with us. We were talking about, we're talking about sermons and all these other things.
But like, I just think that that's part of it too. Like it has to be like the discipleship group can almost always can almost come into this thing like the church does too and, and feel OK that I'm the body when I'm with my discipleship group, when I'm not with them. So that's like, how do we flesh this out and like forming another program, forming another like small groups where you meet with different families in your house. That might be something that's helpful, but I don't think it's
the true answer. I think like the true answer is like, I'm going to be Jonah and I'm going to bring my family to Joe's house. And we're going to have live conversations about what what like, what interests us. But also like being very intentional about like sharpening each other with the word, talking about what God is teaching us in the Bible, you know, as we read it and then our kids hear that and then that's the norm, right? That's like the normal thing dad dads talk about.
They could talk about cars and and beers and cigars and whatever else that dads are known for talking about. Or they could talk about what is Christ doing in your life in your heart? How is like, you know, that's a hard thing you had to go through, but you had, how did you get through it? Well, I had hope because of, you know, the Lord's work in my life. I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling now, but. No, that's really helpful though. Like like it's, it's doing life together.
I mean, that's. That's a It's cliche. I'm trying to avoid saying that. It is a really cliche thing to say because it gets said so much, but it's it, it is. I mean, that's what a body does, right? Like my entire body follows me everywhere I go. That's right. And experiences everything that I experience and goes through whatever I go through and. Feels pain whenever. Yeah, like a part of it feels
pain. And so like instead of, you know, that that pithy comment in the in the foyer where you say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. It's like going to their house and just sitting with them, not saying anything, just being there or answering a text. You know, I was talking to a friend the other day on like on a phone call and he said the like, if you, if there's somebody in need that the difference in like somebody like going down like the path of like suicide.
Like for some people, like is like a 6 minute conversation with a friend. And it's not even like, it doesn't necessarily even have to be about anything like, hey, you know, you got a second and then like the person doesn't respond or they respond two hours later or whatever. And sure, whatever. And then like that could be like the moment like this, it's you don't have, it's not, doesn't take a lot of time. Like, you just have to be willing to be there for somebody, you know, like to be,
to be willing to spend. I think Simon Sinek is the person he got this, this idea from talking about the six minute thing. But anyway, I, I just think like we're, we're overthinking it. Yeah. Like a lot of times. Like what does the body mean? It just means being like a human, decent human that cares about other people. Yeah, like genuinely cares about other people. And I think that goes back to
your autonomy comment. Like if I'm autonomous and that's the only thing I care about, that I'm a super selfish person because I'm only always thinking about myself, right. And so I think that that would be, I think that's the that's the shift in pattern. We have to think about is how are we others focused? And I don't know if I know I'm not. And it's hard.
And it, and that's why the sermon really, it was a good sermon, but the good kind that like, you know, punches you in the gut or, you know, kicks you in the pants, whatever. Right. And it did for me too, right? Like I was telling people, you know, as people came up and asked questions or talked about it, it's like, man, you're, you're, you're preaching to yourself all the time, right?
I feel like that's the hardest part about preaching is realizing that like you have so much room to grow. And so I hope never, nobody ever sees me as, as preaching. And you know, I'm, I'm, you know, pointing the finger. It's like I'm quite often and I most times pointing it more at myself than anybody, right? You, you as the guy who's saturating your mind in the text all week. It's like, man, I feel guilty all week long. I know, isn't that the way it works too?
It's like like we don't, we don't, I mean, there is a rotation of pastors preaching in the church, right? We have. But like, it just seems like, and no one's like saying, all right, this text right here is assigned to, to Jonah because he deals with this garbage in his life the most. But like, that's almost what it seems like. You're right.
It's like, oh, you're going to, you're going to have to look through this text for like 2 weeks because you know what, you need it. And it's the pastor, Jake and oh, sorry, Jake and Joe aren't, aren't, aren't saying that they're the Lord is saying that he's the one who, you know, organizes it all anyway. But yeah, and I think like to your point about, you know, like take people taking advantage of another because we're autonomous, we're thinking too
much too selfishly. You know, I did have someone mention, you know, like the way the government, you know, takes advantage of people. And we look at like, we look at businesses today and it's easy to point towards them, right? But they do see people as as in a means to an end, right? Like, I, I see these millions of people who are going to buy a cell phone as a way for me to make a product that they will buy so that I can become wealthy, right?
Yeah. I mean, I want to give them something that's going to communicate, keep them in touch. But it's like, at the end of the day, it's like they're concerned about making money. And and but we can trickle that all the way down into our own hearts, right? Because it's like, you know, at my job, you know, it. Am I texting this person? Am, am I reaching out to this person, you know, starting a conversation?
I'm, I'm doing air quotes, starting a conversation because I'm really their friend or because I need to borrow that thing from him and I'm just starting a conversation. You know what I mean? It's like it's very subtle in that way. And I, I have to check my heart sometimes too, where it's like, am I friend with this person because I want to love them and I want to care for them and I want to minister to them, or because of what I might be able to get? Well, that's, that's
interesting. I've that, I've, I've seen that play out like a friend. I was talking to a friend once and he was saying, yeah, I, I went home like he, he lived far away and he went home and he was visiting family for the holidays or something like that. And he said, one of my friends from like high school reached out to me. They saw I was there, came by, we had this good conversation. And I mean, I was just so pumped.
I was just so pumped and it, you know, but after, after a while, he started talking to me about my insurance needs and started to try to sell me insurance. And it's like, dude, I just wanted to like I wanted, I wanted so badly to believe that this was real, like that you really wanted to have a conversation and find out about me. But instead you were fact finding about my life so that you could sell me life insurance for the four kids I have.
Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, come on. And but yeah, that's right. Like, that's that's the mentality. Like, are you using people right for your own benefit? Are you? Do you genuinely care about other people? Yeah, and I think, I think we've all probably felt that on different levels, right? Like you, you, you think someone's genuine and, and we've been that person too, right. So we can't, we can't be too judgmental about it.
But it's like we've all felt that right, that someone wants to be a genuine friend with us all to, to find out that it's like, oh, they were some ulterior motive. And I think that's where it's important for us to, to truly be genuinely concerned about each other and, and not to see people as well. They're, they're just there to
get me what I want. It's like, no, these are people that got us placed in my life, people that it's my responsibility to help them grow, to shape and mold them to I'm, I'm placed here to be the sandpaper that helps them become more like Christ. And equally, they are to be the sandpaper in my life that makes me more like Christ. And, and it's when we're committed to doing that for each other that we truly are the body and we work together to grow.
Right, So I think that like, I think that sometimes like to your first point, first point, excuse me, like exposing our first one and two, actually exposing the sand and then confronting it. Like sometimes that's all you need. Like if someone is genuinely like they don't, maybe they don't see what they're doing right and they recognize it like they did here. I was just looking here in chapter 5 and and 12 it says then they said we will restore these and require nothing from
them. We will do as you say, right. It's like they immediately responded to what was happening. Yeah. Like Nehemiah basically just pointed out, hey, you guys, these complaints have come up. We don't need to be doing that. And like I think they saw quickly saw the wisdom in like, why are we fighting with each other, our real enemies outside? And that's the same for us. Like, why do I need to fight with you, Joe? My enemy is the world, the flesh and the devil.
I need to be fighting that, right. So yeah. But we, I think honestly, though, but like, and you may point, you pointed this out, like more often than not, when you expose it, genuine people respond in a positive way. Yeah. Yeah, but this, this actually reminds me of a conversation I had with someone this Sunday morning.
And we were just talking about differences in in in beliefs and, and what this guy was trying to say was that he just didn't understand how how people made some issues such a big issue. And he's like, we, we agree on the fundamentals. We agree, but like we're just disagreeing on peripheral issues. And it's like, why are we fighting and arguing about that? Can't we just agree that, you know, we're at least following the same savior and just we have these external issues.
And I think that's, that's a really good example of, you know, certain theological viewpoints within the church. It's like we, excuse me, you know, we're open to as a church having allowing different viewpoints that we're, we don't force people into our belief system or like, obviously there's certain things that we're going to say. It's like, well, if you don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, what then? We're not in fellowship
together. If you don't believe in the Trinity, if you don't believe in, you know, salvation through by grace alone, through faith alone, those sorts of things. It's like those are like those are non negotiables, but there are other things that that we're not gonna stand on those things and force people. And so we can have some, some abilities like let's not fight each other. Like you said, there's an enemy on the outside.
And it's like if we're so busy fighting each other on these things that like at the end of the day, are, are not salvation issues and are are just distracting us from the work of building God's Kingdom, then we're we're failing to see the real enemy. And Satan likes nothing more than to cause us to turn on one another. He's so happy. He doesn't have to do anything.
Yeah, he just, he just can sit back and watch it and laugh because if I'm fighting with you, I'm definitely not sharing the gospel with that guy down the road. Absolutely. Or with my neighbor or even with my kid. Because all I think about is this argument that I have going on with you.
Exactly. All week long at work, assumed by it, all week long at work, you know, we're throwing in our earbuds, listening to sermons, listening to things, not so that we can learn and grow and share, like you said, share the gospel or help the church grow, but so that the next time me and that guy have that argument, we can. We can. Yeah. And that's not healthy. It's not we're. Going to destroy ourselves from the inside. No, we need to be 1 body, right?
Like you look at one body and it's use any example, the working out one always comes to my mind, right? It's like if I'm going to if I'm going to try to get fit and healthy, it's like my whole body's going to have to work together. My hands are going to have to stop shoving unhealthy garbage down my face. Sour Patch Kids Mini Kit Kats. And and then my whole body's going to have to work together to like lift weights, run on the treadmill, go for a walk, be healthy.
Like our whole body. It takes the whole body working together to not sabotage itself, but to work together to grow. And it's the same thing in the church. It's like we all have to be focused, using our gift, using our skills, using our ability to help the church grow so that we can become healthy and mature in Christ. Yeah, I want to get back to, I want to get back to your sermon.
Specifically in .2 you had 4-4 sub points and basically confront sin or confrontation, should seek self-control, should seek the truth, should seek God's glory, and then should seek reconciliation. And then you used another New Testament passage to talk about that. Do you remember which one it was? Yeah, Corinthians. Yeah. And then you pointed back to. So I was just like, it was just
really cool to watch. I really liked how you connected the New Testament passage that you were using to kind of prove something out. Because often, I mean, I'm guilty of this is like, oh, I think there's a perfect verse in that Paul's Paul wrote that applies here, right. And then I just go read the verse and I don't. And then I don't really like tell anyone how it really connects. And so like, I just appreciated what you did. So what?
What was it in Corinthians that you were talking about? Yeah. And so and so, yeah. I mean, my, my, my sermon preparation. It's, it's not like a, it's not rocket science. I I can explain it to people. It's very, very simple. What basically what I do when I read a text is I read it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Pacing around the gym.
Pacing around the gym, walking around parking lot, I saturate my mind with the text basically so that by the end of the week, it's like it's, it's locked in my mind, essentially not quite memorized, but but pretty close. And then I'm looking for the divisions in the text. What what are points? And so in this, so in this chapter, it's very clearly
broken up, right? You have, you have the people come to Nehemiah, then you have Nehemiah confronting the leaders, and then you have Nehemiah sharing his practice, right? So there's three parts it's broken up. And then what I do is I explain what's there, then I try to use an illustration just to help us grasp the idea. There's usually an idea somewhere in there that I'm really wanting us to understand that I feel like the Holy Spirit is leading me to like emphasize.
And so I try to come up with an illustration and then I apply it to us as a church more directly and more specifically. And so just, I mean, you're now that I say it, maybe people will be more keen to like see it in the sermon, right? Which I don't, it doesn't bother me at all. It's very simple. I'd love to, if anybody wants to learn how to study Scripture like that, I'd be more than happy to sit down with you. But that's basically it. I explain it, I illustrate it, and then I apply it.
And so in this one, I felt like it was a good illustration for talking about like confrontation, right? So here you had Paul here he, he went to Corinth. He, you know, was with these people for a year and a half, you know, spending his life there. And after he leaves, people begin to turn on him, right? Fueled by, you know, some guy who came in and began to teach them things that were different and opposite of what Paul was
teaching. And so Paul, actually, the part that I left out of my sermon is he actually went back to Corinth and tried to confront them and he got insulted like, and rebuked openly. And so he just left before things got real bad. And then he writes them this severe rebuke, this really, really hard letter that we don't have. He refers to it in Second Corinthians saying, I, I wrote to you and I, I rebuked you. And basically he calls them out and they, they repent of their
sin, right? They confess that they were wrong and they begin to discipline this guy who came in and he repents too. And but then so the point was that I was trying to bring up, it's like this whole idea of confrontation. It's that it's to lead to reconciliation. It's to lead to, like, not just venting, not just getting something off my chest, not just me letting you have it 'cause you sinned against me. It's like I should be aimed at reconciling the situation.
Let's restore what was broken, restore what was lost. And that's exactly what Paul encourages him to do. You now you need to forgive him. Now you need to welcome him back. Now you need to reaffirm your love for him so that you know, 'cause we know. And he sort of says he may be overwhelmed by excess of sorrow, but he says sort of later on in the passage is like we're not unaware of Satan's schemes. Like this is exactly what Satan
wants, right? He wants to like he wants to to separate us, right, to divide us. But the fact that he's repentant, that should welcome him back, right? That's the goal. If he repents, don't just like keep making him feel bad. He's repented. Now welcome him back and affirm your love for him. And that's exactly what we need to do as believers, that, you know, when there's sin and and we confront it then and there's repentance that happens.
It's like, let's reconcile and then let's restore that unity, that joy in worship. Man, that's, that's good. The reconciliation should be the goal. I don't. I think that's probably I'm just thinking about what the world says. The world says exactly what you said. You said get it off your chest, let them have it because they sinned against you, and then move on because then because why they'll be they'll be 6 more friends or six more people that
you can hang out with. You can just forget them. Yep, the world says forget you. Yeah, I'm done with you. Write you off forever. But in the church, we don't. We can't do that. Yeah, that's not what? Because that's not what Christ did for us, right? Yeah, we deserve to be said to be told forget you, but that's not what Jesus did. And so like we can't, we can't be that We can't do the same thing to other people.
Exactly. Yeah. And I referenced this, this quote from John MacArthur where he he basically says like Paul knew that like there's no room for like man made limits, right on grace and forgiveness. There there is no limit. Peter comes to he comes to Jesus and he says how many times do I got to forgive my brother? And he's like, there's no end. It's, you know, 7 * 70. Which wasn't the number like he was just saying. Right. It's like it's infinite, right?
Look at God's, like exactly what you said, right? God's grace towards us is the example. It's like there's no limit. If they come and they're repentant, it's like you forgive and you and you reconcile the relationship and you keep going. Yeah, that's such a good word for for all of us to think and like and to remember like, like you could you could say, OK, well, I'm not going to forgive that person. And then they, what happens to them? They they end up being so
uncomfortable in the situation. They leave the church and then you're like counting on the next couple, family or whatever friend to come in. And then, but eventually you're going to realize that you're the problem, right. And it wasn't that person all along, because I'm having the same issue I had with Frank that now I'm having with Pete. And it's all these things like, guys, you got it. You got to reconcile. The goal is reconciliation.
And that's the same thing for someone like the Matthew 18, right? The the goal is reconciliation. The goal is to bring a person back into the family, not kick them out. Right. And there's and it brings about this idea that like and and even if you so if you're not going to reconcile and you're not and you're just going to you just want to be bitter and you're just going to keep that. OK, great. I mean, I guess that's your choice.
But last week in our Bible reading plan, it's like you have the story of Joseph. Yeah. And his brothers, you know, one day come to Egypt and they don't know they're before Joseph. And Joseph begins to test them a little bit. And what do we see immediately, Right. Their immediate response is, Oh man, God is brushing us. They felt they felt guilty for what they did to him. Yeah.
And they didn't know it was him. Yeah, And it was like 20 years later, they were still carrying that burden of guilt. And so it's like, do you really want that? Like if you're going to be unforgiving towards a brother or sister or you really just want to carry that baggage for the rest of your life? I shared a story with my D group as we were talking about this passage and, you know, harboring bitterness and, and just carrying this burden.
I shared a story that a friend had shared with me years ago. The context of the story is kind of weird. I don't really understand it, but anyway, it'll make sense when I say it. So like, there's this, back in the day, you got a horse and buggy and this guy has his wagon and these boys come up and they fill his wagon with stones. And it's like, now he's got to take all these stones off, right? He's like, I can't carry these stones around, It's too heavy. So he empties the stones off the
wagon and then he leaves. Well, 20 years later, these got these, these boys felt so guilty that they had done this thing. They they come to the guy and they confess it was it was us who did it. We're really sorry. And he just said, well, he says, I loaded the stones off my wagon and I forgot about it. You guys have been carrying those stones for 20 years. And it's like just a really interesting word picture that it's like, that's what happens
with unresolved sin. It's like you think you dealt with it even for you to go like, well, it doesn't bother me. Yeah, it does. You're, you're carrying the burden and the weight of that because it's in your mind, right? How many times? I mean, you just, you just carry things. We have things in our life that it's like you, it's unresolved.
And every time you see that person, every time you hear something about them, it's like it pops up in your mind and you carry it. So are you willing that that's the question you have to ask yourself. Like, am I willing to carry this for the rest of my life or should I just deal with it now and be done with it? Right, Right. Should I just kill it now? Yeah. And then and be done with it?
Or do I want to, do I really want to carry this pain and this like anger, Cause anger is pain at some, on some level, like I'm angry with you. It's like I'm carrying something forward. Just get rid of it, right? Like seek the truth, right? Yeah. Confess it. Reconcile. And, and at the end of the day, it's like there's not one that's easy and one that's hard. Like they're both hard. You just have to pick your heart. Do do I want to do the hard thing of having a really
difficult conversation? But again, if it's aimed at reconciliation, I feel like that helps a lot, right? If you're starting the conversation with like, hey, I just want to make things right, but it's still hard. I get it. It's very hard. Or you're doing the hard thing of like carrying that baggage for the rest of your life or however long you choose. Both of them are hard. Yeah.
And the other thing too can't neglect is like if you have to be willing to like to be OK with the other person not seeing it and not and not reconciling with you. Like at some point you can only do, you can only do so much. You have to, you have to depend on the Lord to do the rest. I think that's, that's hard because sometimes my excuse would be, I don't want to do it because they're not going to listen. They're not, they're not willing
to do whatever. And, and I think that for me, that would be, that would be the hardest thing to overcome in my mind, right. And so we have to like, do I want to carry this forever? Well, like, no, but my excuse would be like, well, they're going to carry it forever. It's like, So what? Like I can only do my part, right? And then I have to pray for them and trust the Lord will allow them to to see that too, and, and to move on eventually. Yeah, it's really hard.
It is dealing with, dealing with, I mean, dealing sinners. Dealing with sinners is hard because you're one too, right? We're all sinners trying to figure this thing out. Yeah, absolutely. The good thing is we don't. We don't have to do it alone two ways. We don't have to do it alone because we're a body. Act like it. Yeah. And then we have the Lord's help, right? We, we, we do have the Lord. We're if you're a Christian, you're indwelt by the Lord and the Spirit and the Spirit's in
you. And we often just like, think we can do it on our own, which is so crazy. It is crazy anyway, but it is it is so helpful to be thinking about the fact that you know, like you said, that that we are one body. Like Jesus wanted unity so much that we have an entire chapter dedicated to his High priestly
prayer. You know in John chapter 17 of of him wanting his disciples and his people to have unity, so much so that he didn't even just pray for unity just among the disciples, but for all who would. Everybody that comes later. Everybody's going to come after. That's the unity that he prayed for. That's the unity that he wants. He wants through his Spirit for there to be unity. And that if it's important to Christ, then it should be important to us as well.
We should strive for that unity. Yeah, there's no Alice. There's not. Should we have to? Yeah, like that's that, that's our, that's pretty much. I don't know if it's a command, but we need to make sure that that's what we're doing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, killing sin in the body? Killing sin or what? Who said that? John Owen said what? I didn't. I didn't. I didn't quote John Owen, but he, he, he. Just came up today when we were talking. Yeah, he said.
You must be killing sin or sin will be killing you. And that that's the truth. I think so many times I, I shared, I shared an article with my D group this morning and in the beginning of that article, I'm just going to quickly pull it up here. He shares this really, really interesting anecdote. He says the deadliest snake in the world. This is this is on the Gospel Coalition website by Grant Gaines. The the title of the article is John Owens 9 instructions for
killing sin. He says the deadliest snake in the world is Australia's inland Taipan. The venom from one bite can kill 100 full grown humans. Imagine you come home to find this venomous killer coiled up in your living room. What would you do? You wouldn't encourage your kids to play with it. Wait, I would burn the house down. Me too. I hate snakes. You wouldn't keep it around as a pet. No, you'd grab a shovel and you would aim for its head.
We have something far more dangerous in our homes and our hearts sin. Sadly, too many people play with sin instead of putting it to death. And then he goes on to court. John Owen, he famously warns Christians be killing sin or it will be killing you, which is a book that he wrote from is from a book that he wrote the mortification of sin on Romans 8, verse 13. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you
will live. And so, so many, so many times it's like we, we play around with sin, we minimize its effects. We minimize, it's not really that bad. We just sort of like keep it in the corner. We don't really do all that much to kill it. It's like we sort of become OK. You shared the sermon illustration, you know, months ago about, you know, this, this guy and, and you know, this Holy Spirit that wants to kill this sin and this guy and he's like, he's just trying to justify why it's OK.
It's like he's just become used to it being here. And, and we need to have a hatred for sin, that God, God hates sin. It, it destroys our relationship with him. It kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden. Like one sin was enough to remove them from the presence of God. And it's like we just have to learn to hate sin and to be killing it and, and to be very diligent. And so maybe we can share this article. Yeah, for sure in the in the podcast notes that might be
helpful to some people. Yeah, and infighting amongst yourselves is sin, yeah. Yeah. So that was yeah, yeah, absolutely it. Is like infighting. Infighting is sin in itself, but but so is like it's not just what happened before the fight. Like the one sin calls more sin, which in turn causes even more sin, which in turn causes people to to harbor bitterness and hate, which is more sin like. That's how that's how come it kills you so fast. Yeah, yeah.
And so the so the point that I drew out here is that that way that we kill sin in the body is by being servants, right? We serve not to get but to give. And this is how Nehemiah lived. He like what we learned in this story is that, you know, rather than, you know, using his position to take take advantage of people, he used his position to serve. And he provided for himself. He provided for his own people. He he did that on his own. And he even helped with the work
on the wall, right? Like he wasn't, he wasn't there, just standing around. Like passive, like an overseer, like no, you do this. Yeah, I, I worked on the wall. I've also persevered in the work on the wall, he says in verse 16. And so so he was looking for how to give, you know, not to get. He wasn't, you know, OK, I'm now in this position. Now I'm the governor. Now I get this is what I get because of the position I'm in. That's not what his mentality was.
He wanted to give and he also wanted to please God. And so that was the second part that we serve not to please man, but God. You know, his prayer at the end of the chapter that you know, remember for my good, Oh my God, all that I have done for this people. He wants to be pleasing to God and I. And when we do that, we kill sin in our life, right? When we serve out of desire to bless others, to help them grow, to help them and, and spiritually nourish and
strengthen them. And our desire is to please God. You're going to kill sin in your life because you're seeking to do what's what's glorifying to God and most beneficial to other people. And it's like sin doesn't have room there, right? That's so good. It's, it was a really helpful chapter. I don't, I don't know. I don't know that I would have come to the conclusions that you did. I just appreciated your work on this on this. You'd had a different flavor and you'd have done it.
It would have been slightly. It would have been good. Yeah, yeah, that's true. We do. We do come at things from different perspectives. Well, and I think that's, I think that's good and healthy, right? Like all all three of us pastors preach differently and you draw different things out of the text And, and, and because the truth of the truth of the matter is it's like, I could preach the same chapter in a month or two months in a year and I and I'd probably draw different things
out then. You know, I think a really beautiful, and this is, this is a really helpful thing to think about because some people, some you, you might have a favorite pastor that you listen to and, and you know, you could ask the question. I ask this question all the time. It's like, you know, if you can listen to, you know, the best preachers in the world, why would you listen to me? I don't really answer that
question. Maybe you shouldn't listen to me. But I think I think the reason why God puts pastors in different areas is because we live in a world where it's like, you can listen to the best preachers all the time, But our job as pastors is, is to take
this word. And what does it mean to this specific body of believers and what they're specifically going through in this season of life in this context in Leamington ON right in 2025 in February. What are we going through that this word has to and you know, you can't get that from a pastor who's who's preached this text 20 years ago. It's God's word is still obviously going to connect and they're still going to be connecting points.
But that's where it's like a pastor knows what's uniquely going on in that body in that season of time. And God works through that to to give them the word that they need. Right. And if he doesn't know he should, he shouldn't be their pastor, right? So that's that's the other thing too. So. Yeah, you got to know the flock. Yeah, very good. All right, Joe Almost said. P Joe, any final thoughts on on
the sermon from Sunday? I think just a further application of find ways, find ways to be the body, you know, I, I don't know, I don't, I don't always know what that means for. You, man, I really think it's. Dude, eat more food together. Like get together. Yeah, take time. Like make like we have time. You're not too busy to have a meal with your friends. And I'll be the first to confess, you know, we visited, we visited a a family this week, too.
And I just said to Jessica on the way home, I was like, you know what, we need to sit in more people's living rooms, you know, and, and get to know them and hear their stories. And there's just, there's something that different, Like we can talk on a Sunday after church and have a conversation in the foyer or in the sanctuary or whatever. And that's can be great. And it can be a great time of
blessing. There's just something the different that happens, a different connection that happens when you're sitting on someone's couch exactly and listening to them and you use your sharing in life more personally. And so that might be a really good encouragement. See, I do, man, I think. More people's living rooms. Sit down, have real conversations, leave your phone in the car, right? Look people in the eye, have a conversation with them and I'm
like staring at you in the eye. Now it's like, I can't say that and not do it, but that's that to me, that's it. It's like, dude, just just disconnect from whatever it is you're trying to like fill in this void. You're trying when you use your phone or your devices and you whatever, you're trying to fill a void that you can get by sitting on the sofa with somebody and having a
conversation about their life. It's just that's what that to me, that's it man Form relationships, be willing and open and as hard as it is, be vulnerable at times to an extent, you don't need to be open, like open the book right away, but like just be willing to be a friend. Yeah. Friendship matters, and specifically Christian friendship is the most important kind because it's centered on Christ. Yeah, and the closer we are, the less we're going to want to sin
against each other, right. It's like I and we see this like when, when you, you know, with your kids or your wife or, you know, some people that are really close to you, it's like, man, you're you're willing to do almost anything to protect them, to save them, to defend them. And that's exactly what we're talking about. The closer we are together as the body of Christ, as brothers and sisters in Christ, and the less sin there's going to be. Yeah, it's really good, Really,
really good. Next week we'll be talking about EMI 6. Professor Jake will be preaching that, I think. Yep. And then yeah. So we're grateful for you guys who are listening. If you have questions, send them in. We haven't received a question in a while from you guys, so I don't know if that means that we were just doing such a great job or that you're not listening or whatever. If you have a question, send it to beyondsunday@lemchurch.ca and we'll be glad to answer your
questions. Why don't I pray and we'll close it out. Father, thank you so much for an edifying conversation about reconciliation and dealing with sin inside our inside our church and inside different relationships we have with maybe it's a family. You have hard, hard conversations that need to be had. So Lord, I pray that you would give us the courage to trust you. I know that's that seems silly, but I sometimes I need courage
to trust you. So Lord, I pray that that you would give us and our church courage to to do the hard thing because it's all hard. Ignoring it is hard and in doing something about like the pain in the the conflict is hard. But Lord, I pray that you would give us the the courage to do it, to step out in faith and to trust you to deal with sin, to be killing it before it kills us. So when I pray these things in Jesus name, Amen. Amen. Thanks, LEMC, we're praying for you. Have a great week.