All right. So welcome to be on Sunday an extension of the preaching ministry here at LEMCI Am, Pastor Jonah Chitty, joined today by Pastor Joe Penner as always. And today we have a special guest. We have Anthony Fair, the one, the only Anthony Fair. Is there another Anthony Fair? Probably. There is. So I lied to. Everybody, yes, OK. And I don't think he goes to this church, but he's from the
community anyway. OK, so this the one of two Anthony Fairs is here joining us today and it's good to have you here. Anthony is one of our youth leaders for senior youth, right? I got that right for senior youth. We're excited to have you here. So we're going to be talking a little bit today about your ministry. Also. We're going to talk at first, I think we're going to talk about Pastor Jake's sermon. Pastor Jake preached a sermon. Joe preached a sermon from First Corinthians chapter 15.
You left off on verse 19, I think, right? So he picked up in verse 20 and went all the way down to 3433 is an incredible verse. Do not be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals. So I'm sorry I'm bad company most of the time for you, Joe. I might corrupt you, but yeah. So it's a very good passage. Continuing Paul's really, really in depth overview of the resurrection. So yeah, what are your guys
thoughts about the sermon? Yeah, I, I thought he was sort of building off of, you know, my sermon the week before mine was the importance of the resurrection. And he's beginning to talk about some of the effects of the resurrection. And so I know first, the first one that he talked about was that death was conquered. And so because of Adam, all men have sinned. But through Christ and his victory, through his, his death, his burial, his resurrection, he actually defeated death.
And so death was conquered. And so his second point was that Jesus resurrection in rain meets the end of all earthly rain. And so whether we like it or not, it's, you know, the, the rulers and the kingdoms of this world will have to subject themselves to Christ, you know, whether they want to or not. And so he said in sort of in that point, it's not a matter of if, but when that Jesus is the true ruler and judge.
And I've, I've maybe you guys have heard this before, but I've heard people say this before that when people accept Jesus is their Lord and Savior. And it's sort of like that's it's a nuance in the wording, but it's not that like you accept Jesus, it's like Jesus is Lord. Right. Or somebody said like make Jesus. That's what it is. Yeah. And like, yeah, yeah, right. Like you can make Jesus anything, Yeah. And you're it's just whether you come to realize that truth or
not. But like Jake said, it's not a matter of if, but when. And then his Third Point was that Jesus resurrection means complete unity and perfection restored. And I, I sort of like how he, he talked about the two different sides of Jesus. Not that we talk about two different sides. It's really the complete fullness of God and, and his
perfect nature. But, you know, sometimes we can overemphasize the judgement and the, the harsh realities that are in Scripture of, of God's justice and judgement, but then we forget his gentleness and his compassion and those and his love and those sorts of things. But we have to, we have to realize that it's, it's not like 5050 or 252525. It's like God is 100% just, he is 100% holy and 100% righteous and compassionate and righteous and all of those things.
And so I thought it was helpful for him to talk about the, the different realities of who God is in, in his perfect state. And so, yeah, he sort of talked about what we become is evident by what we follow. And this idea that you know, what we, what we believe and, and how we live sort of proves what we believe. Yeah, I think. Does that come out in the? Does that come out near the end? Of the Yeah, yeah, that was close to the end, yeah.
It hits on that verse that I mentioned at the beginning when I was reading it there. And like, yeah, you like, if not like, I think he's picking up on this idea that Paul's talking about in verse 32 about like, if, you know, if the resurrection isn't true, if the dead aren't raised, then let's eat, drink because tomorrow it's all over, right? Like a nihilist attitude, like, yeah. And that's just not that's not the right way to go.
And so I think he picked up on that and that bad company corrupts good morals is such a good like it's a proverb. It's in quotes in the CSPI. Don't know what it is in the ESV as a quote, like a popular saying or something like that. But like it makes me makes me of garbage in garbage out mentality. Like if you put a lot of garbage in your brain, that's what's going to come out. So Anthony, how'd you how'd you feel about this? Yeah, yeah. Do you guys talking about that?
Reminds me of a conversation I had once with a boss of mine a few years ago, and I brought this up at youth too. Actually, we were just studying the book of job, so we were talking about. Is it job or job is? Job job for sure, no doubt we were talking about job and just suffering and the, the world's view on suffering. And I remember a conversation I had with my boss.
He, he explained to me that the reason he doesn't, you know, believe in, in Jesus is because of the, the suffering that goes on around the world. And like, how can there be a God if, you know, children are being killed, mothers are being killed and all that. And I just brought up the point that it's interesting that people often don't even use their own suffering to, to discount, you know, the existence of God. They use other people's other
people's suffering. Meanwhile, in those in those areas, that's probably where you see the strongest, strongest faith and relating that to the sermon. It's. I'm trying to remember where I was trying to go with this point but. It makes it seem meaningless, right? Like, well, if if God is truly good and God is truly all powerful and that's this was sort of the reasoning of of someone who doesn't believe in God, right? If God is all powerful and God is good, why is there suffering
since? OK, there go the. Part. The part that you were saying let us eat and drink for tomorrow we will die is like, yeah, if, if I also don't think there's a God that exists that promises only peace and only, you know, a good life. Like if, if that's the God that he's discounting. I agree that God doesn't exist like our our God. He does allow suffering and ultimately it's always, you know, to fulfill his plan and his goal.
But I just think, yeah, like it's, it goes back to that point about it's not a matter of of if, it's when people will, will realize that Jesus is, is raining. And that's, yeah, that's kind of the point I was trying to make with that. No, it's good. I think like it too. Like you talk about suffering, like would it be like a really? I don't know if life would be even worth living if you didn't have something to like, to like
compare good to right? Like in my mind, it's like good and evil are two different things, right? And but like, you don't know what good is unless you've experienced some kind of like suffering some kind of pain to understand the opposite of it. And so like, you know, that's the old thing saying you don't really know how good you have it. You know, you start complaining about everything you like in your life.
And you realize if you start to compare yourself towards, you know, other other people who suffer more, it's like, you realize, man, I really have it really good. And so, yeah, I think that God for, for God to say, for, for there to be like a, this vision of a God who would not allow any suffering, to me that almost seems even more like horrible. I don't know. It's like, not that not that we want suffering to be like a primary thing. We always obviously we want to be gone.
But like, like what we experience here, I think on earth, like in, in, in the midst of the fall, What will that make heaven seem like to us? We'll see the opposite, the complete opposite of it. We'll be like, yeah, this is amazing and we will be overcome by, you know, an all satisfying God. So yeah, it's good. Yeah. And then and I think for for us as Christians, I mean, we see this in our own lives that you, God can grow you in ways and suffering that I'm not.
I don't say to say that he can't when things are good is not the right way to say it, but I think you understand what I'm saying. It's like when, when things are, if everything just always goes perfectly, then you know, there's ways in which you can't grow. I I've used this example before of like your kids. If if your kids, if your kid just always gets what he wants, What does that kid turn into? A spoiled brat? A spoiled brat exactly.
But this is sort of like, well, if we just got everything we always wanted and everything went perfectly, we would be spoiled rotten brats. That's exactly what we would be. And I think God uses suffering, he uses hard times, he uses difficulty and death, even in sickness and those sorts of things to refine us and shape us.
And it leaves you like there's the already in the not yet there's this idea that there's there's something that still is yet to be fulfilled that we're waiting for that's better than it is here. And I think the suffering, the hardship, you know, that they leave us longing for that, for that better, that better thing that's yet to come.
For sure, and I think if you view, you know, suffering from from God's point of view is, is he he is willing to lose, you know, 100 physically speaking, if, if that will lead 1 to eternal life. Like if if you think about it that way, like we would all agree that that's that's worth it. Like if, say those hundred are all saved, but he has to lose all 100 of them just to gain, you know, one more for eternity. That's that's worth it. Like that's. Yeah.
It's an easy, easy choice. Man, you just made me think like before when you were talking about your boss, you're having conversations like that. That's a heavy conversation. I have like with a boss employee relationship. So that that's pretty good. That's a pretty good relationship we got there. Yeah, yeah, He he was very open to to talking about. I didn't make very good points,
I'll admit. Like I I thought of all this after, but during I was like, yeah, OK, I didn't have very many great points, but it it at least kind of gives you something to think about. Gives you something to think about. Also gives you like an opportunity, like, to think about like, how can I, how can I weave some of this into conversations in the future? How can I be, like, sensitive to this in his life? And when we go in, when he's going through something, how can
I speak truth into it? It's good. Yeah, it's really good. People are going through so much. And the fact that someone was willing to open up says a lot about you. It says that, you know, hey, he recognizes that you are a believer. And even if we are criticized, Joe Joe's talking about criticism a lot. Even if we are criticized, sometimes people criticize us because they recognize something in us that's different, right. So like, maybe you're moved the holes in the golf course to the
wrong spot. They maybe they think you're like, I don't know, like just someone who's like mean or whatever. And it's like trying to do them wrong. But now they recognize something in you that they that they that they don't have a lot of times. And that's just people reaching out that way. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I sort of a question that Jake asked towards the end of his sermon was, has the resurrection affected my life? And that's sort of been like
when I was for my sermon too. It's like, OK, well, what does? Because mine was heavy on the resurrection as well. It's like, well, what does the resurrection, how does that really affect us, right. Like what's the application, you know, how does it change how we live? And I think that's a really good question to ask. We sort of had a question come in from a listener, right? Yeah, about similar, similar along that same vein.
Well, it was, yeah. And so this, this person was just mentioning that, you know, all this time we've like, so the last three sermons we've really been emphasizing the gospel. And you know, you touched on the resurrection quite a bit in your sermon. And then Jake and my sermons were both like 100% on the resurrection. And I guess I even realized this for myself that I, I guess I've been sort of neglecting the resurrection too.
But that's what this person is saying that, you know, I talk about the fallen nature, I talk about our sin. I think about that often. And then I often talk and think about how Jesus died for our sins and took our place and emphasizing that part. But then it's almost like we don't really talk about the resurrection, or it seems to be like an afterthought, or we're not actively thinking about it. We talked about last week, you might be embarrassed to even bring it up. Right?
Like, exactly. Oh, you believe. You believe that guy came back to life. So yeah, exactly. Right. But it is a it is central to the gospel. Like, I mean, we have to, we have to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Otherwise, I mean, that's Paul's whole point in this whole chapter, that otherwise our faith is completely meaningless. But this person asked the question, how do I how do we emphasize the importance of the
resurrection more? And what is a What's the best way to bring it up and share it in conversations with unbelievers? That's a good question. I think like I think going back to that verse at the at the end of Jake's passage 32 talking about like if the dead are not raised, then let us eat, drink for tomorrow, we die. I think to me when I read that, like, I don't know, in my flesh, I think, yeah, it sounds like a great, great life. Just do whatever I want to do and then it's over.
But really, it's a hopeless life, right? That seems like to me like, oh, yeah, that's like a nihilism and it's hopeless. And the resurrection, the, the way we bring it up is like this is like Jesus died for sinners. We've we found that out at the very beginning of chapter 15. We found it out way before that. But Paul like hammers that point
home, right. And then he talks about being raised, that the, the being raised part, Christ being raised from the dead is where our hope in, in salvation comes. Like that is the that what pastor, pastor Jake was talking about the defeat of death. He he defeated death. You know, death is dead, like, which is, you know, weird to say, but like, and when his heart started beating on the third day, he had conquered death.
And therefore, because of that, we can live with, like, this hope that this isn't all there is. Like, we can live with this hope that this suffering that we experience is going to end. There will be something on the other side. I may never see the end of my suffering, you know what I mean? But like, yeah, eventually we
will. Yeah, And just like, you know, Christ was the first fruits, he was the the first to be resurrected, we're invited to now join in that and like we have an opportunity to be resurrected as well. Like that's where the hope is because, you know, if we share Jesus dying on the cross for someone, somebody who doesn't, who doesn't believe in Christ, they're going to say, well, I didn't ask him to do that for me.
What does that do for me? But the resurrection is where like, OK, well, that's maybe the biggest fear of of humankind is, oh, I don't I don't want to die. Like where where am I going to go? We have the answer or the Bible has the answer to that, that question. Like we have an opportunity to to live after this life. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And I think just including that, you know, to the question about like, how do we include this in our like when we talk with
people? I would say probably the first and most practical thing would just be like it you should just include it in your gospel presentation, right? Like if you're going to be sharing the gospel with people. Yeah. Talk about sin, talk about our fallenness, talk about how Christ died for our sins. But then don't forget that he rose from the dead, which proved that he had authority to do what he did. He proved the authority to forgive sins and be the
sacrifice for. Sin and his authority over everything, right? Yeah, exactly. That's a really good point. Joe and so like you, that actually is the you, you actually haven't reached the climax of the story until Christ has risen from the grave, right? And so you, you sort of like otherwise you're just leaving Jesus in the grave, so to speak. You know, he's he's stuck there in the grave, having paid for our sin.
It's like, you know, like some guy, you know, took my place in my crime and so he's in jail for me. You know, like that's that's not it, right? Like he died and then he rose from the dead. And he's actually like, like you said, he has all authority in heaven and earth. And so that's like the completion of the story, like you said, Anthony, that we now have hope that goes beyond the grave, right? That's why we have hope that we'll raise. We'll be raised from the dead to be in heaven.
Yeah, I, I pastor Jake Moon is in a certainty to really good job of like, like talking about the disciples and like how they felt like it was over, you know what I mean? And like the resurrection happened and like proof that it wasn't over. Like about like if, if if Jesus had not risen from the dead, then those guys just would have been like, so I, I saw when I was preaching through that, I was thinking, you know, that's, that's something to think about.
Like the disciples are just hanging out, like all hope is gone, right. And then I, I love he brought up the first fruits thing when Pastor Jake referenced Leviticus. Maybe we should go and preach through Leviticus soon. It'd be a lot of fun. It'd be a lot of fun. I think we'd learn a lot. We'd understand more of this sacrifice. The sacrificial system that that was set up in in like the Jews
had is what Jesus fulfilled. And so for us to not like to neglect that would be detrimental to us as Christians and believers. But I think it's very important for and Pastor Jake did a great job referencing back talking about like why we why the first fruit matters? Why did Paul talk about that? Like it he's not just a first fruit type, You know, this, he's the first of many. He's, he's like the best of all of us. Like, you know, he, he's died of human life.
But he he did it and and he did it first. And so, yeah, I just thought it was really good that he brought that out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's just like, I mean, the resurrection is, yeah, I, I like we talked about this last week already. I and and I just didn't even realize for myself, like in the moment, like how vital this is. And like I to sort of sympathize with the listener's comment that man, I feel like I've sort of done the same thing too.
It's like you talk so much about Jesus death for sin that you don't emphasize enough his resurrection. And I just, yeah, I I've just been so blessed to to really slow down in this, this portion of the letter and hitting on all these topics and on all these subjects and just really being able to emphasize the resurrection. It's been really, really, really good. I think it's one of the things that expository preaching does. It allows you to not skip over like things that you may may
hit. You know, we, we would probably if we were just going to preach the sermon one off in First Corinthians, we might have chosen, I don't know, any of the 1st 7 chapters to hammer home all those talking about the sin of the Corinth, the church in Corinth and all that stuff. And like, don't be like Corinth. But then Paul, like preaching through the whole book has given us an opportunity to like preach this whole council, which has been really fun.
So. Yeah, and people don't even realize how long we've been in it. I know I, I said in my sermon last week that we've been in this book for like 7 months. And I was talking with somebody the other day who was referencing something that they had remembered that you had said it, Jonah. And they're like, I think it was in Ephesians or something like that. It was a few months ago. I'm like, Nah, I was, it was still First Corinthians. And it's funny because I could remember it too.
I think it was somewhere back in like 10 or 11 or something. It was about the Lord's Supper. But anyway, I just was. Like, that wasn't even that long ago, really. I'm like, yeah, that's funny. We've been here for a while. Yeah, for sure. You're talking about the. Did you have a point? I'm sorry. I'm going to cut you off if you had something. To no, yeah, I was just going to kind of reiterate what Joe said.
I was very convicted to of how little I think of the resurrection and some thoughts that kind of came up for me were like, what role does my doubt of the of the salvation play and why I don't talk about it more like is it is it because I'm scared to be laughed? It's pretty easy to argue that somebody died for me, but it's it's kind of a whole nother thing to say. Like I believe that he rose from the grave like it's. Right. What? What role does doubt play in in?
That well, I think it's natural to doubt that, right, like or to even have like thoughts, questions about it, honestly, because it's so rare. Like like we don't see, we don't see resurrections anymore. Like we see resuscitations, right? We see like people who are revived in hospitals after being like, quote UN quote, dead for for minutes. That's a resuscitation. It's not like a a resurrection, like, like Jesus was dead for three days, Lazarus was dead for days.
Jairus's daughter was dead for maybe minutes, maybe. I don't know. It doesn't say those things that the pastor Jake mentioned in his sermon. It's so rare. So it's I think like, that's for me. That's that's where I come to like, yeah, it is weird. I mean, you think about this like the supernatural aspect of it is, is strange. And so I think it's natural to have like good healthy doubt.
Well, I don't know that it's all like, and realistically speaking, is it any more unrealistic than than saying that he died for the sin of all mankind? You know, like that's, that's pretty like wild too, right? You know? Who, who, who has the authority to forgive sins but God alone, right? And so that's basically like that's also very, very rare and strange. I feel like maybe it's just something in our mind that like we just, I don't know where. I It's the physical nature of it.
I think. I, I think that's what that's what causes us to, to like, make it like bigger in our mind than the other. Yeah, yeah. Because the one in all reality, the one proves the other right? Like, and what I mean by that is so yeah, we, we even if we say all the time that Jesus died for our sin, I mean, that's OK. The resurrection proves that. So it's like sort of to Paul's point, it's like if the resurrection isn't true, then still he just died. And so it still means nothing.
And so the resurrection actually proves that he had the authority to forgive sins by way of being the sacrifice because of his resurrection. And so I, I think, I think it's just probably a mental shift that needs to happen in our mind. But I get what you're saying about the doubt because, you know, at the end of the day, we can't, none of us can prove that it happened, right?
I mean, we can't, we can't go back in time and know for sure That's, and I think there's an element of that that's just faith. And the reason we doubt is because faith is exactly that. It's faith. It's like it's not seeing, it's believing even though I don't see. And so it's having the faith to believe in. And I, I think I've been talking
with people about this recently. I don't know if it's if we've said it in the podcast or if it just came up with a conversation, but I, I think some people think that's a cop out for Christians to say, oh, it just takes faith. Because an atheist would say, well, yeah, that's just an easy cop out to say, well, it takes faith. I don't think it's a cop out because I I think it's scriptural. You know, Jesus, God that literally says that in Hebrews. You know that.
There's a whole chapter on people like. With the people who believed, right? Abraham got sent out and he went out not knowing where he was going, and he just chose to believe and he had faith. And Hebrews 11/6 actually says without faith it is impossible to please God. And so I think we just got to accept that that there's an element of faith that we just have to believe, even though we don't know for sure, but we stand on the truth of God's Word.
Yeah, I was talking to, I was leading young adults the other night and we came up, we came across the text where Abraham and Isaac, I, he, Abraham is told to go sacrifice Isaac. And this idea that I've never, I didn't make this connection until recently. But like that, Abraham's faith in that moment was also a resurrection faith. So like this, our faith in in the promise, it's always been
sort of a resurrection faith. But the reason it was because Abraham believed that God had the power to resurrect Isaac if he had gone through with the sacrifice. And we learned that in Hebrews. It's not something that we made-up. Hebrews 11 tells us that Abraham, his faith that God could raise from the dead is, is the reason that Abraham's listed in that that chapter of, of those people who are considered the most faithful.
And so like, I think it's, it's important for us to remember that our faith has always been a resurrection faith, always been this idea that God can can do way more than we even like, can imagine and think about. So, yeah, it's good. We're talking about important things. And you've been, you've said this several times today, like how central the resurrection is to our faith.
And then we had a question come in because in my sermon a couple weeks back, I said something about theological triage. And so we had this question come in from, from one of our church members asking like, what are the primary things like? So the triage for Albert Mohler, popular, popular resident, I think he came up with an article way back talking about like this idea of triage and, and thinking about like all the theological things in like in a framework so that you can kind of get your
mind. How do we, how do we like fellowship with people who have different ideas about different doctrines than us? Like what is required for us to be able to like I just said this, what is required for me as a Baptist to come and be a pastor at a Mennonite church, right? Like that's, there's, there's certain things that I would have to like say, OK, these are things that that we have to be sure we agreed on. And then these are things we have room to to disagree on or,
or, and to still work together. And so like the question was like, what are the primary things? So you said 1. So do you have any other? So he could he listed out like salvation. We have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Basically the things in 15-1 to 11. Well, I, I know, like, I mean, you sort of, you sort of mentioned like, I don't know, we were talking a little bit about this before we started the podcast, but there are central
things to our faith. But you sort of realize how many, I don't want to call them Gray areas, but just different beliefs there are right? And so. It's very narrow, like the primary thing. Tier 1 is very narrow. Yeah. And so there there's a book that I would recommend to anybody who would, who would want to read it before I right. It's called Finding the Right Hills to Die On by Gavin Ortland. And it's, it's really fleshing out this idea. I think the whole point is
finding the right hills to die. Like don't die on a hill that's not worth dying on. You know, like there are certain issues that it's like we just have differing, we have different beliefs. And I think the mistake that some people make is they, they take some of those issues and they think they assume that their position is the correct position. And so therefore, anybody else
who thinks differently is wrong. And that is wrong when you have two differing beliefs, let's say mode of baptism, like what baptism, you know, whether it's dunking or whatever, just use it as an example. There are two, 2, two or three different frameworks. Some people would say sprinkling's OK. Some people would say it has to be immersion. Some people would say, well, you can baptize babies or we should baptize babies.
And so each of those people has a, they're looking at baptism through what they think is a biblically faithful lens. So those are three different ways of viewing baptism. And so I just, you don't hang your hat on that, right? And you don't make that like a. Yeah, don't hang your hat on it, but I had a conversation with a family member and they were they've been going to a Presbyterian Church to become members of a Presbyterian Church.
They're baptized as believers, but they have children, right And so like that aren't that haven't been baptized yet. This church will allow them to wait until they are professing believers if that's their conviction, which I think is good. I think this is like this is like triage in action. Like if you conviction is that that you need to be baptized as a believer, like this pastor in this church has like said, OK, that's fine.
We'll we'll baptize whenever they're believers, but like we were just discussing it made me laugh because like my, my wife's cousin said, yeah, I'm, I'm teen infant baptism now and we're like. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't, you can't just make that call us. They're like, anyway, it was a it was a funny, funny like instance of conversation about this. But I think like it's important for us to think about the primary. So the primary would be.
I would. There's things that are essential for salvation, which are the Trinity. Like we, we have to have a triune God. We have to have Christ who who is fully God and yet fully man. Yeah, so we can't deny the divinity of Christ, right? And so the, the incarnation, right? Like that, that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, things like that. Justification by faith alone, right? We're saved by faith, not by
works. Things like that, The resurrection we've been talking about the authority of Scripture. Yeah, I think that's you. You brought that one up before Anthony in our conversation that like, what would you say that the Bible how where does the Bible fit in all of it? Isn't it like important or not? Yeah, it's. It's pretty important. It's yeah, it's the authority. It's it's yeah, it's true.
It's it doesn't need to. Nothing needs to be added to it like it's it's profitable for teaching reproof everything. It's it is, it is the the thing. It is how God revealed himself to us. Yeah, like in a special way. It's the only way we know. God, right? We'll we would know him, the general and special revelation. But yeah, he's exactly right. It's the way that we know him, the way, you know, in the way we do. Yeah. So it may sound crazy, but yeah,
I think I think you're right. So like the Bible being primary as far as the way that God revealed himself to us, we believe it's inherent. We believe it's totally profitable for all teaching and reproof. It is. It is the place to go to find out how we're supposed to live as Christians. It doesn't answer all the questions that we have as far as things go, but it gives us a framework in which we can live and we can we can guide ourselves.
So I don't know man, that there. It's very narrow as far as the primary thing. It is and, and So what that means is that in other areas we can have differing agreements and still have fellowship. And one specific one that just came to mind is creation. Like you can believe that God created the world in six days, 24 hour periods. You can also believe that God created the world. And that phrase is very important in like ages. And we can still be have fellowship with one another.
It's totally fine because the central part of that creation is that God created the world. Like we can't deny that God created the world. I also think you can't deny that that there was one Adam, one Eve. Like there was like there was one of each at the beginning. Those are things you can't deny about creation. But as far as the age of the earth, I don't really care if you think it's six days. I don't care if you think it's
millions of years. But there are people who will make that a primary issue and they'll question my salvation if I say it's a long time, which is it's fine, but I I'm happy to have those conversations with people, but that's not something. Primary well, and I think that's that's like to your point, I think the whole point of theological triage is the ability to say I believe that you're a Christian. I disagree with that belief.
And you know, I guess just to bring up a really contentious one, because I feel like this is one that comes up quite regularly here at our churches, the Calvinism and Arminianism, right? And so even me just saying that you know who, depending on who's listening you, you might have differing beliefs. You may have just gotten butterflies in your stomach. Don't worry.
And, and, and the, The thing is, one of the things about this topic is when you hear those words, you ask 10 people what Calvinism is or Armenianism is, and you're going to get 10
different answers. And so the first thing we have to do when we're having those sorts of conversations is we have to talk about terms and what we mean when we use those words so that we're talking about the same thing because everybody's heard it, taught differently and heard different nuances of it. But the point is like, we can, we can disagree on those things. Like our church is not a Calvinist or an Armenian church. Our we're, we're a church that
believes the Bible is true. And those are just frameworks through which we see Scripture. And so it isn't about, you know, analyzing the details of each of those views, but it's understanding that those are frameworks through which we can see the Bible. And so we can have someone who is a Calvinist or someone who is an Armenian and we can have fellowship together because we say, I believe you're a Christian because you're baptized on the confession that
Jesus Christ is Lord. You believe in the Trinity, you believe in the Bible, you believe in justification by faith. We just disagree on this, this, this work of salvation and, and how, how exactly it functions, but it doesn't change the essence of our faith. And so we can fellowship together. And I would say we do fellowship together.
We have people who are in both camps in our church and that's not an issue that we're that's not a hill we're going to die on. You know, like we can fellowship together and we can praise God together because it doesn't, it doesn't change how we function. We still all believe that we have to witness and we have to share the gospel with people. And we still, we still all believe that we have to come and we have to worship. And so all those, it doesn't change the essence of your faith.
And so I think I think those that's a really good example of one where it's like we can just, we can have differing beliefs, but still fellowship. Yeah, it's and it, it's good for us to be able to like recognize those things as secondary or tertiary. Thirdly, I don't know how you say it, tertiary is the word, but like trying to use a word that's smaller. But yeah, so like we have to recognize those and be willing to like say, OK, yeah, that is a
secondary issue. And I'm getting really worked up about something that's secondary. And let's let's let's figure out where we agree. How can we fellowship, love each other? Well, because like that's that, that honestly, that is the biggest thing is like when someone makes this like a secondary or a third or tertiary thing, primary, then then like fists come out, right? You you put put up your defenses, your guard comes up, people get angry.
Relationships and families are broken When you're making something that's not meant to be primary, primary things, bad things happen. And I think what's important to do when you're having those conversations is obviously to drop your pride. But also like I've heard going on the same issue, like Calvinism and Arminianism, I've heard both sides. I've heard people when they start arguing, they say, well, I'm not a Calvinist. I just I. Believe the Bible.
Believe the Bible what they're were, and I've heard it on both sides. What they're doing by saying that is they're saying that you're not. You don't believe that someone else doesn't? Reading the, you're basically saying that they're not saved, which that's what we're getting at. Like it's not, that's not a salvation, it's not a primary issue. So you can't with those issues, you can't now go up to them and say that they're not saved.
That's when it just gets contentious and you're not going to, you're not going to get anywhere. Like you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are genuinely reading their Bible and that's the conclusion they came to. And then you can argue from there what what you believe and you can talk through it that way. But if you're going to start there, you're you may as well not even that's true.
Not Even so true. And there are times, you know, in, in certain secondary issues where it doesn't mean that it doesn't when two people disagree on a secondary issue, they can separate peacefully. And because it may affect, you know, like I, I would say, but let's say, for instance, like a woman being a pastor, you know, here at this church, we believe that pastors are to be called men. And so we wouldn't agree with a woman pastor.
And that's an issue where, I mean, I can look at another church and go, you know, I, I think they're preaching a true gospel. I believe they're saved. I believe that they're people are growing in their faith in that church, But I'm not going to go to that church if a woman is a pastor because I don't think that's biblically faithful. And so, so there there's, I think that's sort of the point that we're getting at. We have to have some way of determining, OK, well, are you a
Christian? And that's where the, the primary issues come in. This is this is the gospel, like a gospel issue. That's where that term comes from. This is something that's central to our faith in Christ. And here are issues that sort of that they begin to affect how we function and how we operate in the church. And there are times where that
that is OK to separate. But I think you need to acknowledge that that they, they can be believers who think differently from you, which is important because you're going to be in heaven with a lot of people that you disagreed with.
Yeah, for sure. And I think the secondary things like baptism is a secondary thing, but that would mean that I would have a hard time like joining a Presbyterian Church, even though I would consider myself Baptitterian, like in my, in my theology and the way that I believe the Bible works, I would have a hard time because they don't believe in believers
baptism. You know, it's like a, they believe that they could baptize babies and then they're confirmed later in life, whether they are a believer or not. So I, I get it. But at the same time, it would be, it would hard, be hard for me to worship consistently and become a member of a church that way. Because if I become a member of that church, that means I'm going to agree on all of these things.
So unless it was like the one that I was talking about earlier where they, they allow for you to have different views on secondary issues and they're they're OK with it. Yeah, I think it's, it's important. We don't need to make the primary or the secondary things primary. And I think it's important to note too, that those things are like, there are secondary issues that are very important and we should like work through them.
But I think the only thing that we can do is we, we can look at the fruit of, you know, the people that believe those things like what are, what is their ministry leading to? Or what do those beliefs lead to them just slowly relaxing on more and more things. Because that's often what you see with with some of these things. They'll start maybe with something secondary, but then they kind of become more OK with just letting more things go.
And it leads. But it's not that secondary issue that that was really the prime issue. It's that they kept going further. Right. So you have to just, you know, I think we all just have to be praying that if, you know, there's anything in our theology that we're wrong on, that God would help us through our reading to to realize that and to just continue growing. But not to. Yeah, to be ruining our relationships because of.
Disagreement. Yeah, it's definitely not worth it to to blow up your family over secondary things. We got good examples like our professors you mentioned, like praying and asking God to reveal to you when your theology goes one way or the other. We have, we just have. I was just thinking about professors who say, yeah, I changed my view on this. They would say that in class I I had this view and I actually wrote this in a commentary.
Ten years ago, but I don't agree with myself anymore and I've changed my my view and now I'm at, you know, that publisher's actually doing a revision on this commentary for to, to review, to revise this one point. This is very important to everything. Just like, you know, it takes a lot of humility. It does, Yeah, for sure to not just like dig your heels in well. And I, and I think this is an important conversation because you're never going to find the
perfect church, right? Like I had someone asking me a question, some questions a few weeks ago about certain things. And, and I, I just said to this person, you know, you'll never find the perfect church. And, and if you want to find a church that's just legalistic about everything and has a million rules about everything that you need to be doing and not doing. And you're just never going to find a church that you agree with on everything.
And This is why this conversation is so helpful because, you know, we think we're a biblically faithful church. And so we would encourage people to come here. We, we think that here at LEMC, you can grow spiritually. And we're, we're continuing to grow. We, we realize that we're not perfect, but we think that people can grow spiritually here
at this church. And whatever church that is, even if it's another church in town or another church in the area that you feel like is good to go to, so long as you think they're rooted in the gospel and you think it's a place that you can grow spiritually. You see the ministries and the way they function, that they're rooted on the right things. You may, you're not going to agree with everything they believe or everything the pastor believes.
If there's going to be somebody on the leadership team that thinks differently or whatever, you're going to have different beliefs, but you need to have some way to say, you know what, but this is a good, solid church. I may not agree with everything, but I think this is a place where I can root my family and we can grow. And so that's really where the rubber hits the road with this conversation where you're not going to find a perfect church and you know this, but it is a place.
You can grow. Yeah. The reason, the reason Moeller wrote that article in the 1st place is he came into Southern Seminary and it was extremely liberal theologically. There were professors on staff that didn't believe in the physical resurrection at the time. And that's the kind of thing that like he had to like address on the front end. Like these are the core things you have to believe in order to be a professor here. So he fired a bunch of people, which caused a bunch of problems.
But this is like what we have to, we have to make sure like you have to believe that the resurrection was real, like Jesus was physically raised. You have to believe that the incarnation was real, like Jesus was born to a virgin, like the virgin birth was true. Those are the, like you, these are things that you have the whole salvation story, the, the story of Jesus Christ as it's portrayed in the Gospels. Those are things you have to believe.
You know, we have to believe that in order to be a Christian. Everything else is, I mean, really everything else we can, we can, we can talk about. And, and so I hope that was helpful conversation. I think it was for me anyway, just to talk about it some more for the, for the question that came through. I hope that was something that was helpful. Yeah, go ahead.
Expository preaching kind of naturally helps a church stay on that path because churches who maybe pick their topics that they're talking about, they're going to pick topics that they're passionate about, they're naturally going to be swayed by their their bias about the.
Body but. When you're just going through it, you have to deal with topics that you're maybe not sure of or and even for as a, as a listener of the preaching here, like it's made me have to to deal with issues that I hadn't thought of before because you're not just hearing the the classic sermons each year that are important. To the church leadership. You're you're just going through everything and you deal with it.
As a yeah, that's true. And sometimes you just have to say, I think Pastor Jake said it this way. Sometimes you just have to say, I don't know and it's OK, right? It is OK. Like we have sometimes there just comes to a point where you like you, it's time to preach. And I haven't formed my view on this yet. And sometimes you either have to read over it or you have to just like, say, you know what? I, I really don't know. This requires more study. But Paul's general point is
this. And I think he did a great job with that this week. It was what I'd like to hear more. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody wants to know. Like, that was a hard verse that he had to talk about. Like we were talking about earlier, the one about baptizing on behalf of others that are dead. I don't know. It's hard. What I would like to hear. Heard more. Yes. But I, I don't know that I'd have done any better. Like sometimes you just have to
say, you know what? I don't know, this requires more study. 23 other people won't know either. So let's just figure out what Paul's really the big picture is and and go there. And that's what expository preaching does. It humbles you like that. Like when he's, when you were talking about that, I was thinking because before I was like, man, I really wish we could have gotten into that because I was like, I wanted to know, but it humbles you because I don't know what I would have
said either. And don't pretend you know, because that's what exactly. I'm OK with you picking a position and saying, hey, I this is where I like leaned off the strongest. You've done that before, Pastor Joe, where you say, you know, there's room for like for us to figure this out. But right now in my thinking, this is what I think is the strongest thing. That's OK too. But I think that's that's what
exposes, it humbles you. Well, and that's that's the hardest part about it, right, because like, you know, with this verse is it is it going to impact the way we live? I I don't, I don't know how much like baptizing, you know, people being baptized in the path bath the dead.
I don't know. But when you come to other topics where I think that's where it gets really hard because I'm realizing that I'm having to say something about it and it may influence people in the decisions that they make, massive decisions they make in their life, right. And so there's. 450 adults that are listening on Sunday morning in person who you're influencing. Exactly. And so it's like you feel the weight of it, right? And it's, it's heavy.
And so you, you want to do the best that you can. But I think at the same time, sort of like you said, like you, you want to be able to say something, right? You don't want to, you realize that it's your job, right? Right. And that sounds bad to say it that way, but God has called you to to shepherd and to lead. And so you want to do that as faithfully as you can. But we recognize that we're fallen and we're sinful, and we
can be wrong. Yeah, and I, but I think like to, to Jake's credit, I think that the humility shown there like to say, I don't know the answer to this question. That's a big thing. Like it's and it's, I think it's important for a, for for us to project to our people is to say, you know what? We don't have every single answer. Like pastors are infallible. The word is, you know, is not. And so like, I mean, maybe I said it the wrong is we are fallible.
Excuse me. And the word is infallible. So like we just have to take like I loved what he said. Like we can't build a theology on this one verse. Like we it would be very dangerous for us to say this is this is the the gospel truth when there is so much room for for conversation about it. Like what is Paul talking about? Is this something that that they were doing in court that we don't really have a clear picture about?
And maybe that's helpful to decipher what issues are primary, because those issues that we set our primary, it's not hard to dig through the Bible and be like, OK, it's pretty clear what's right here. But when, when it's very unclear, then you know, God wouldn't leave us like his his word is good. It's complete like it's, it lacks nothing. He wouldn't leave us wondering on an issue that's. That's right.
That's this as far as I know. And you, you, you said this earlier, Anthony was like, as far as I know, this, this hasn't brought up anywhere else. And so it's like it's, it'd be hard for me to like to say something like very authoritative on it, right? We have to remember this is also helpful for us to understand context. Like we need to understand that letters are written to a specific people, specific time for a specific reason.
So he's addressing something that we may not be Privy to. So anyway, we're almost at 50 minutes, which is crazy. I wanted to ask Anthony. Anthony, you are leading our one of the youth leaders for our youth group. How's it been going? You got you got like 5 or 6 kids that are showing up on this on a random Friday night or. Yeah, we've got a few more than that. So last, like before this new school year, we were averaging around 4040 to 50 on a really busy Friday.
That's a lot of kids. And since September, I think the first week we were back, we were close to 90. That's a lot more kids. 90 kids and so we've just seen, you know, a huge a huge jump in in numbers, a lot of new grade nines and even just people bring in their friends. So that's been interesting to navigate for sure. It was already a lot of kids and we already didn't have, you know, the enough leaders to to really pour into these kids.
So to go and double that number, but really keep our leaders the same. It's been challenging, but it's also we're thankful that God has blessed the ministry with with these kids to to hear the gospel and that we can pour into. So it's, it's been challenging, but we're yeah, like I. Said So if you're an LEMC member or someone who attends here faithfully and you would like to serve in the youth group, I'm here and Anthony say we need more youth volunteers.
Even bigger than that, we, we met with someone to sort of help us navigate these new numbers and we asked him, like, how do we, how do we get more leaders? Like what are we doing wrong? And he, he pointed out a verse in Matthew that just talks about how the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. And we're urged to, to pray for, for more workers.
And I was really convicted by that because I find it really easy to complain about a lack of leaders, but how often am I praying, praying for more leaders? So that's, I guess that's kind of my commitment to, to the church is that I'm, I'm committing to praying for, for more leaders. And all I would ask that, you know, our listeners would do is to be doing the same. But pray for if you feel a call on your heart, pray, pray about that. Ponder on that.
And also, even if you don't want to help, just pray that there would be more help. Well, and the biggest thing that I maybe just to, to flesh out a little bit for people what, what would be required of them, because I think people want to know what's entailed, right? So you guys beat it on Friday nights. But I think the biggest thing that we guys are looking for is people who are willing to, to come to be there to help lead, but to build relationships,
right? It's, it's not that they don't they, you know, they don't need people to lead devotions. You're not going to be asked to lead devotions. You're not going to, but basically just that you need help there or just keeping all the kids in check, but building relationships. And so like if, if, if you enjoy having conversations with like teenage age kids, high school age kids, right? Just getting to know them, talking to them, building relationships, having
connections and just. Yeah, or if you wish you had someone like that when you were a teenager. Right, That's something to think about too. Like if, like if you enjoy it, that's one thing. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I don't enjoy it. I'm just saying I don't enjoy it. If I if I had that desire, like when I was a teenager, some older man like would be able to like give me wisdom.
I could like I needed a mentor. I mean, there's no, I can't count many times in my mind I thought, man, I really need a mentor. I really need a mentor. And like, if you've ever felt like that, be that mentor for someone. So anyway. And I think it's, I know our evangelism team obviously goes out on Thursdays and maybe some people are, are kind of terrified of sharing the gospel with, you know, strangers. But I think this is a really good opportunity.
Like these kids are choosing to come to church or maybe their parents are making them. But either way, they know what they're coming to. They are expecting to hear the gospel. So you're not going to have like, you can come and learn how to share the gospel with people who want it and who are are coming for that. Yeah, maybe they don't want it, but they at least they expect it, right? They're. They're not going to like be shocked if you go up to them and
share the like. They're not going to, you're not going to get any crazy embarrassing reactions. The worst thing they're going to do is they're going to ignore you, whatever. So I think it's a really good competition, yeah. Yeah, although I think it approximately. So maybe I'll be worth so much. I just don't speak their language anymore. They speak English words and. I what are you? I mean, you're only like, you're only like 2323 and you don't
speak their language. I they say words and I, I don't know. What they If he's 23 and he doesn't understand, Joe, you and I are. We're done. No, that's good. So I have a question for you about youth and maybe you've had time to think about this. I did prep you so you'd have some kind of idea of what I'm going to ask. Prep is a stretch I've prepped. In like 2 minutes before 2 minutes before we hit record, you've had 50 minutes to think
about this. OK, Like what is like, we can talk about all sorts of issues that teenagers face in our, in our current culture, But like, sometimes I think like we, we may be talking about things that they aren't really concerned with. Like maybe like there's a different bubble that they're in, you know what I mean? Like think about like the identity stuff and transgender issues, all those different things. And maybe they are important to our kids, but like maybe not.
And so anything you are with them week in, week out as one of our youth leaders, what is like the like what you would say is like one of the biggest issues that that our youth here at LEMC are facing in their current life. Yeah. I would say there's there's obviously still those those typical issues that I think you would think of like for guys, you know, struggling with lust or pornography, like that's still that's still very, very prevalent. It's just it's a lot easier to
get to now. So that's kind of a whole nother. Another thing to deal with. I think there is issues like identity is a big a big one, and I do think some of that is US putting them putting that on them. Like, I don't know if they would feel like that's their biggest issue. But I guess just a big thing that I've noticed is there's just so many distractions in in life these days. It's really hard to spend your time wisely.
And especially as as young, young people, like it takes a lot of time to to build good habits and with how easy it is to get to your phone. And I think we just naturally, we all we need to be entertained these days like never before.
And so it just seems like they struggle to just slow down and just be bored and desire, you know, reading their Bible rather than just going out and, you know, spending time with friends or whatever, which is like, I'm not going to act like that's not what I did when I was like, it's I'm not going to say that they're way worse off than we were. Like, I think you always look back and think, oh, I was never
that that bad. But I think if you would really think about it like they're no worse off than than we were in a lot of ways. But I guess, yeah, the social media part and just fitting in with friends and and stuff like that, I think it's maybe a bigger struggle than than ever. What do you think? What do you think the answer is? As a parent like I'm you, you're a parent now too.
I think it, it comes down to, I think family worship getting back to that, because I think if your goal, I'm kind of speaking to the parents here, if your goal in sending your kid to youth is that they'll get, you know, their weekly fill of the Bible and discipleship. I would urge you to rethink what you're doing at home because we have two hours, like there's not much we can do. They're going to fill their time with a lot more things throughout the week.
Then, and that's such a good word. And yeah, appreciate brother. And so, yeah, like we, we don't have the power to, you know, lead your, your children to Christ. Neither do you. But you do play a big role in what they're spending their time on. So if I know family worship is really hard to make consistent, but I, I think if we don't do that, we're yeah, we're not setting our, our children up for much success, I guess I would say. Yeah, I had just recently been on the road.
I just got back last night and one of the most annoying things that happened on this trip, there were a lot of annoying things. I was in the car with my wife and our four kids for like a total of like 32 hours there and back, plus all the different like running around. I think like we lived in our car, but like one of the one of the ways. What do you do, Joe? If you're in the car for a long time, what do you what do you offer your kids as a way to pass the time?
Looking out. The window Joe, you're being too you're trying to be too holy. Watch a movie, watch a movie. And so like we did that and I regret it because Ezra, our two year old, if I hear, I want to watch Spidey on your phone one more time, I want to watch Spidey on your phone. I want to watch Spidey on your phone. Like like he would wake up from a nap and say, like he would wake up the first thing he'd say, I want to watch Spidey on your phone. And I'm like, we did that to
them. Like we did that to him his like we're programming him to your point to want like entertainment and to feel like every minute needs to be filled with entertainment. Your comment about looking out the window is what we did. Like you're thinking about what did your dad make you do? Like your dad? Like I can remember, like we had a a white Chevrolet station wagon with a red vinyl interior. And I can remember there were like 32 scenes between me and my sister.
Like the only you know, you don't want to know. You want to know how I know that is because I counted them thousands of times because I was bored in the car. Like we need to learn to be bored, but we need to teach our kids that too. I think it's very like you hit on really something really good, like all this stuff. The reason our kids want to like dive into this, like what the world is saying to them is because that's who's disciple in
there. We're allowing them to be discipled by their devices, by whoever controls the social media, which is not, they're not looking for out for their best interests. They're looking out to see if they can keep them on the device more and more. So, So like there's a whole bunch of problems like they're the kids see that, Oh, this is the way I'm supposed to act. This is this. I should, I should, oh, maybe I,
I feel like I should be a girl. Whatever, you know, those things, they start to have those thoughts to creep in or this is what a woman should look like. And so they're, they're like their idea of what a wife or a girlfriend should be is twisted by this worldly view of like whatever the sexual revolution is telling them, right. And so man, I, I just like, we got home last night and I'm like, we got to start family
worship back out. You know, we got I, I literally said that in that's why when you said that, I was like, I, I it was confirmation for me, like because I have to. Take ownership of the discipleship for my kids and my wife. Yeah, and myself in a lot of ways. But like, I think it's very important. If we don't disciple our kids, the world is going. To yeah, you see. What do we want to disciple the man? And somehow we're like you said about, you know, needing to be
entertained. Somehow we're shocked when our kids fall into that. But then you look back and you're like, oh, that's I like, I gave that to them. I, why am I shocked that they, they want to watch TV all the time or they want to do this like exactly. Their thoughts are very malleable and they are like, they are going to take on take in a lot. Like they're not stubborn old people that won't change their, their mind like their kids. They, they're going to consume a
lot. They're going to learn a lot. And it's up to you where they're going to get that from. And I think you, you want that to be you discipling them, you teaching them the word. Because if you don't, somebody else will. Their friends will their.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. That's very convicted folks who are listening, like if you've had any reservations about sending your kids to youth, like you should send them because they're going to get good quality teaching like from Anthony Fair and from from the other leaders. So dude, thank you so much. It's been a joy to have you with us today. Do you have anything you like today to share, Joe or no? Did I? Did you fail? Did. You fail. Oh. Man.
Oh, you just got that new book. That I just brought you from the from the bookstore that you haven't. I haven't looked at it yet. No, I I don't have anything right now that I can think of. OK, I do have one thing that you could that that if you're interested in an Advent devotion, I just received one in the mail. I started it two years ago because today's the third day of Advent. It's called the God who is with us, 25 day devotional for Advent written by Ronnie Martin.
It's excellent so far. I commend that to you, to you all. Oh, there's actually one. I I crossway just sent one out too for kids. So well, it's like for parents and kids, but it's the God, the devotions. 25 days worth and printable ornaments that like kids can color and hang on the tree. So you sort of learn the principle and then you color the ornament hanging on the tree. So it sort of gets the kids involved. It talking about family worship. It's actually be a really great resource.
Is that available to everybody? Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was. Free. Yeah, free. Free is good. It's always good. If it's free, give me 3. You can have three I could like as much as you want. So very good. So we'll put those things in the show notes, links to those things. But yeah, so we started last week ending on prayer. Do you mind praying for us, Anthony, as we as we close out
the podcast today? Dear Heavenly Father, I want to come before you and I just want to thank you for this day that you've blessed us with. I thank you for this podcast and for our church leaders that are striving to faithfully lead our church biblically. I thank you for their faithfulness to the Word and their willingness to take extra time during the week to give us even more material and help us really dig into our Bibles and understanding what what these
texts mean. And I just pray that you would give them endurance and strength as they continue to do that and, and patience as they work through that. And I thank you for your son Jesus, who died on the cross for for us, he paid the penalty that we deserved. And he also defeated death and he was raised from the dead. And we are invited now to have relationship with you. We also will one day be resurrected.
And even if if we're not, if there's non believers, they will be resurrected to but to death and we will be resurrected to life. And I just pray that that would give us a desire to share your gospel with, with anybody around us, wherever we might be at work, at school, that you would help us to take those opportunities to share the wonderful hope that we have in Jesus Christ, our our Savior. And, and just pray that you would bring up helpers for our
senior youth. God, if there's anybody that's listening to this podcast that has been thinking about it, I just pray that you would continue to, to work in their hearts to, to answer that call to be obedient. And even if they're not going to help with youth, God that they're serving somewhere, that they're sharing the gospel somewhere and discipling people around them like you have called us to. So I just thank you again for
this day. And I pray that you would go with us from here and throughout this week, that you would help us to dig into our Bibles and learn more about you and and your, your truth, greatest in your name, Amen. Amen. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week.