Hey listeners. This is Neil Ludovic and Amir, John dalli, welcome to leave looking at. Where we have uplifting conversations about the state of the world with our heroes, with the intention to demystify orient and leave you. Our listeners inspired for this episode, we sat down with Pierce free Lon. A man whose accomplishments are truly extraordinary. Pierce is an Emmy Award winning producer for the PBS. S-Series, the history of white people in America.
He is the former city. Councilman for the city of Durham North Carolina, a two-time Grammy nominated artist for best children's album, alongside his mom who was also nominated in the same year for her Jazz album. Making them the First mom and son Duo nominated in the same year. He is also the founder of black space, a space for afro futurists. And if that's not enough, he's a children's book author. And perhaps most importantly to him, A proud dad.
In today's episode, we learn about the importance of honoring. Our ancestors, vibrations, dealing with failure and challenges through acceptance, being obedient to your intuition and not the way you do. One thing is the way you do, all things. Thank you for joining us today. And now, without further Ado,
let's start this episode. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did and leave afterwards looking up I met Pierce through an incredible initiative which I believe Eve is the Genesis of one of your Grammy nominations, if that's correct.
We definitely have some overlapping networks but I also think at a deeper level you put an energy out in the universe and you attract like-minded energy and I found and you for sure like so much Synergy, just all the projects you're working on the people that you kick it, with our podcast, as a whole is really about humanizing, our heroes, it's understanding their worlds and who they are, and making them a little bit more.
Able to us. So I think I'm going to start with this question of, how did you get here? Wow, I got to start with my ancestors, they were instrumental when I look back, first of all, my grandmother's here to my left Queen Mother, Frances pierce, my mom made a portrait of her. That I'm going to show you. It says Bloom where you're planted is the name of this piece. You can see here, there's Queen Mother, it's kind of like a collage with these cut out
pictures and birds. She likes to be I mentioned. This is one of those ancestors. That's like going to tell him about your grandma right quick. This woman was a hairdresser, a
community organizer. She was just a church lady bible-thumping hardcore, Jesus, Apostle woman, and really was invested in rooted in her community and Cambridge Massachusetts. She poured some really important values and to my mom that she passed on to me, you She was just one of these like many black women in the black Freedom
struggle, who often go unnamed. There's a lot of men but there are scores of people like my grandmother who were doing work on a daily basis to uplift, the black community that you may not know the names of and we have these people in our family. We have them in our community, we have them, you know, at our schools, there are teachers there are Librarians. There are Grandma's Auntie's I carry her.
Her spirit with me, just a look at me and my siblings say you are the fruit of my womb in full bloom. And I think that such a such an apt metaphor because she did the work during Jim Crow. You know what I mean? Coming up for the Texarkana, Texas, grew up on a sharecropping Farm, just in the Deep, South and found a way out of no way. Found a way to build a business doing hair and make them black. Men feel beautiful found a way through her Church community to have an impact on the Civil.
Rights issues that mattered, to her found a way to saturate her children in the Arts. She was close homies with Maya Angelou and made sure that my mom and her siblings were at every poetry reading art show exhibit. Dance performance after school program that they were saturated in that, and that was a part of her Legacy. See, and what she left to her own children and I'm the fruit of the fruit, you know, Fruity Fruity Fruity, Tooty number 2, T
second generation, right? My grandma passed that onto my mom, then they form like Voltron. No, I'm saying they and while I'm talking about granny Freddie, I got a raise up. My dad's dad's dad's dad, his name was Alan freelon, senior. He was a painter in the Harlem Renaissance. He was a politician, he ran for public office. Office in 1949 to represent Pennsylvania and the in the state general assembly and was just bout it. If you go look up his art, he
did. He was an impressionist painter. But he also did kind of paintings that were critiques on war and white supremacy. And he passed that on to my dad, his grandparents and great-grandparents clearly passed on their passion for Arts, their fighting spirit for equality and their love for family and community. Immunity on to his parents, my mom is a jazz vocalist, she's a singer and have the courage and wherewithal, and audacity to
step into into that realm. And I'm a kid watching her and seeing, oh, this could be a career trajectory. This could be a path. My dad was a similar vibration to my mom. He was an architect and designed many buildings around this country, including the Smithsonian Museum of African American history and culture
shortly before he died. And he was another one who was just singularly aligned with his purpose was undeterred by the, you know, the fact that he was the only brother in the all-white office and just overcoming adversity and tapping into his excellence and resilience to pour himself unapologetically into his purpose. I don't have some kind of elevated perspective because I'm taller than everybody. Buddy else. Do I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
Yeah, this is the whole family Force that's generation to generation, but this is definitely family and role models in. You're straddling that city council. Being a producer, a music artist and author as well. Talk to us all about those different hats. How do they all integrate I do?
Wear a lot of hats, but there's a nucleus there that kind of binds the other pieces of. There's a Are there in the middle of my solar system of things that I'm doing and at the core of my being in my purpose as a creative person versus Black Liberation. That that's number one, it's like a commitment to the black Freedom struggle and the resiliency of black folks and families children Elders, that's
important. I think the Arts are there for sure service, I say service because I think social justice doesn't quite Eight, the fullness of what, you know, service is really about. And also, when I say creativity, or the Arts, which my dad said art is the most powerful force in the universe. I'm not just talking about my music, I'm not just talking about my books. Like parenting is also an art form, you know, trying to get my kids to do things disciplining or loving them.
They make you improvised, right? It's like parenting is creative. Husbanding is creative work. I'm in a band with my wife and she's dope. We got a shed to stay sharp sometimes as date night sometimes that can look like different things. Sometimes that's getting in an argument or a fight and then coming back and apologizing, like it requires chops that need to be honed and develop and require the same things that need to show up for you, in a
creative environment. If you want to be successful. I think service creativity Black Liberation that It's in my books. It's in my parenting, it's in how I strive to be a spouse and how I strive to show up and community and various ways. Something that I know is super important to this idea of being a dad is so important and having children, I was just thinking my daughter like minutes before this call comes into my office, just like Dad, come over here.
I cooked something I want you to try. She had taken some Her. We had a take out last night, she mixed the leftover salmon with rice, all right. Wrapped it up and rice paper through on some little sesame, seed, some teriyaki in there, and then she threw it in there in the airfryer and that in the airfryer. So she comes in. She comes in here, Dad, you gotta try this. I'm looking at the clock, I'm like, I got an interview in 10 minutes. Okay, ran in their shoes. She goes like this.
She puts her arms out. She says right this way. Oh my goodness gracious. Excuse. Right. I love it. Oui oui. So, yes, that down. It was so good. It was so good. Not only was that creative of her to do to come up with the recipe and to see what was in the fridge. And then just remix. What was there? How often do you experience that as a DJ, where you like? All right. Well, this is what I got today.
So let's You go down the rabbit hole and you surprise yourself with what you find in the digital fridge of your hard drive, right? And if we, you know, you escort the audience to taste this delicious salmon and rice wrap of a mix and it was a great parenting moment. I honestly I haven't reflected about this because I literally looked at the clock and said, oh, at now, I got to get on to the calls. But you know, it's the same thing that creative spark and the joy that you find.
And Being of service to others. Like it's one thing she could have made those rice wraps and just smash them herself. I got like that would have been dope for her to experience on her own, but to share the experience, you know, and to spread joy, to others. There is joy and abundance that comes from service from looking at my expression. And you see how expressive I am? I was like, Stella, you know, I was helping her up. Like, she just won an award.
She didn't win an award, she won the air. Prior award. The thing that is important back to the purpose of your show. That kind of spark that Bliss of a parenting moment or a doddering moment of her presenting. Something to me, that is such a visceral expression of love. That is available to us all. I just think that is something that seems in accessible to people, but is actually in everyone's fridge and everyone's
house home bless. And we just need to find ways to tap into it as often as possible and to share it, because when you share it at the, you know, the vibration raises, for everyone Creator included. There's this theme about aligning to your purpose and sharing that, which is in all of our fridges, no matter how we choose to slice and dice and
serve it, right? I'm also hearing from you this beautifully integrated honor of your history in your past and so I'm wondering what are the conditions that one can create for themselves for That expression, I think the primary condition is love. That's number one, that is more accessible for some than it is for others, depending on your childhood and how you grow up and what you've been through,
whatever. When my wife and I, we talked about the kids especially reflect on decisions that we've made. I tell her often, if you lead with love. There's really no error possible for you to have all you have is like opportunities to grow. I think that is where you have your kids stepping into moments, like, the ones we had this evening because the love is present. And so, here's a great example with my mom. My mom's Journey when she was a
teenager. She wanted to pursue a career in music and was discouraged by her loved ones, including Queen Mother who just wanted the best for her daughter and wanted her to get a job that had some security attached to it. We're all creative. We all got relatives for like, really, what you doing, how's that 401k, doing with those risky? Life Choices out there, you know, making music or whatever. Make a out of love and a desire to protect their child. Coming from a sharecropper
background. Not want your kid to live in poverty and to build a foundation from which they can have some Financial Security. She was discouraged at a young age from pursuing a career in music I believe she was offered a record deal of like 1415 which was also a young age to say like well I'm not going to go to college, I'm going to do this deal, you know, so So, for understandable, reasons, and coming from a place of love, she was discouraged from pursuing
her music. So there's nothing you can do about that as a kid. You don't have the kind of agency to chart your own path fast forward. She went to college. She got her undergraduate from Simmons and did exactly what her parents expected her to do. Which was pursue a respectable career in healthcare. She's going to be a nurse Matt my dad. Boom boom three kids boom. Boom. All right. Now, we're in 1984. I'm born. I'm the youngest of three. Mom has a crucial choice on her hands.
It's time to get back to work and be a contributing, you know, member financially to the family. Am I going to go back to UNC hospital and finish my Nursing degree or am I going to step into the purpose denied at 16 into the space of abundance and resilience that I've been dreaming about all the gigs she had done up to that point other than singing in church is singing lullabies to her. Babies. Right. And she has a crucial choice on her hands about how she wants to
live moving forward. Now that she has the agency now that she has the ability to make decisions for herself and she chose and that moment rather than bringing a guaranteed income of whatever 3040 thousand dollars a year, a nursemaid back in the 80s you know, certainly a stable income relative to I mean yeah. That s right. Jazz it in the type of gig. For a person that don't have, you know, a decade of experience career, right? I'm playing at the mall. I'm playing at the airport.
I'm playing at the lobby of the hotel during the holidays, you know, barely making gas money. Like it's a humble place to begin at 30 with three kids, you have to love yourself enough to Grant yourself permission to step into the space that, you know, is going to be fulfilling for you. You not necessarily the best for my family because it's not bringing in the same amount of money, or whatever.
But guess what she was more happy and more able to pair it with abundance coming home from a gig where she really thought she crushed it. And building a career where she's making forward progression that is helping on her instrument and grow as a person. And as an artist you know that To be a better wife than it better mother.
And of course, she got signed 10 years later and was nominated for a Grammy and you knows travel the world and has had the career that she dreamed of. She only had that opportunity to step into abundance because she was being basically selfish. You know what I mean? There's a lot of people who would look at her and say, oh, you're being selfish. Nah, she's loving herself. So, I have plenty of examples. As from Queen Mother Frances pierced, my own parents to other
elders. And so now my job is pretty simple. Just don't mess it up, keep doing the thing. Do the thing, keep stepping into your abundance, keep being aligned with your purpose, keep showing the children through your actions. How you love yourself through the way that you show up in the world and then your community and in your relationships and your family and they will take note of that.
And Run with that baton. And I can't explain it to them as they have questions, but the best explanation is my own behavior and they can model and emulate that behavior as they step into their own versions of self-love listening to that especially like about your mother. So much of that experience. I think was informed by that original decision to respect her own mother right to do maybe what's Needed, but not what's wanted.
And there's a little bit of a heartbreak there, a defining moment that kind of makes coming into herself at 30 that much more meaningful, that much more of that mindset of abundance. I think that somewhere in our origin stories and our Genesis, we all have those kinds of heartbreak moments, that help Define us and I'm curious what was yours? What is your heartbreak? That was also a breakthrough demystify that a bit. I've had many heartbreak moments
I've had To learn. So when I say something as Gully as like I don't believe in mistakes and everything is a learning experience, like that's not just I wasn't born that way. Even with the tutelage that I got from the mentors, and loved ones, who raised me, it really is something that I learned through failure after failure after failure and getting up and seeing wow, you know, that really seemed like an L in the moment, but but now that's a whole W1.
Example of that would be running for mayor and losing that election in 2017. Pierce ran for mayor of Durham in North Carolina, his platform Community, growth Youth and love the primary race was crowded with a total of seven candidates. But Pierce gained 16 percent of the vote as the first time runner, he ultimately lost the race though. I put everything into that campaign, it was in the uphill battle of uphill battles. It was really tough to kind of claw back from what felt like a
devastating loss. Like all these people thousands of people voted for me, supporting me got on my campaign I'm like I let all of you down. You is Oprah, I let you down, you down, you down. Hey you in the back you gave me two thousand five hundred dollars. I let you down like it was just like whoo. This is tough. Now here's what those types of experiences and wisdom over time. Will teach you, I was not ready to do the work that came for our
mayor. So the guy who won his name is Steve, Schewel had one of the hardest mayoral terms in the history of our city, with covid and everything that was going on. And he handled it with so much Poise and made decisions that really reflected his experience. He was on City Council. Council for a long time and that experience, really helped inform some important life-saving crucial decisions that he made for the city of Durham.
When an opening came up on the city council, my former opponent, the guy I was locking horns with and debates a couple of years prior was my biggest champion. He was like, oh yeah, that's a. We got to get pierced in that seat. He's that dude in 2020. Pierce was appointed to serve on the Durham city council. Now, he was ready to make some real change. During his term, he expanded the opportunity for those without wealth to serve on the city council as well.
By passing a measure to increase council members salaries, just work. It made sense for what was going on in my life at the time. If I was mayor, there would be no children's music album and book and all these other things that I've poured my life and energy into Yeah, daddy-daughter day. Girl, what up, what up? Right now we can go anywhere. You wanna roller skating rink to the movies, chilling at the house.
Maybe later, my energy would have been channeled in a different direction which I'm sure would have had its own fruits. But there is no doubt in my mind that everything happened exactly as it was supposed to. And I'm exactly where I need to be with, no regrets whatsoever. And in fact, my previous angst and insecurity around failure has been flipped to Gratitude, moving forward, when losses
occur, I'm much more resilient. It's not that I don't feel bad when I don't get things that I really strive for think I deserve, but the bounce back is much quicker, because I know that it's not a loss, it's just a step. It's just a step in the right direction. I mean, hearing that story and especially that you were saying that your opponent was your biggest champion. I think that's a testament to your character to running campaigns with integrity and styles and, and those
vibrations, right? The anyone can feel that vibration. I'm curious. Who are you looking to to Champion? Who are you looking to, as your role model as a guide? Who do you? Look up to all the people, I mentioned the ancestors that I mentioned my kids.
My daughter Stella, there are certain historical figures that I look to as people who really like you did that Harriet Tubman and Nina Simone and You know, they're just too many to name Paulie Marie, Andre Leon, Talley sindorim folks, Andre recent
ancestor. I think my daughter is important to mention because it's not a people who are associated or Tethered to institutions of power and the rod recognition, there are grannies in my community, like my grandmother who are just Rock-solid, highly intelligent Fierce, beautiful power houses that I've known just from coming up in the community but also that I've met through my service on Durham city council women who would show up at meetings with Stage 2
cancer. Just like demanding things for their community on other people's behalf and I'm just like, whoa, you could be home right now. Probably should be wrapped in a blanket like watching Golden Girls on Hulu, but You hear it at the council meeting like showing up for your people, respect strength and resilience. Those role models are literally everywhere that you don't have to squint hard to look specially when you're looking at at black
women. As you're talking about all the people that are around you and you have so much Direction, the idea of what you want to do and how you want to do and where to go, seems very clear. And I think there's a lot of people that have maybe an intention like I want to be in this space but I don't, I don't know where Start, I don't know who to talk to first or how to talk to them.
What would you say is the first tool or resource you know for the weary wavering person that's like I want to do something I just don't know how to start. What is that resource? That could be used to them. There's clear tools that come to mind to answer that question. One is butterflies that feeling of butterflies in your stomach as soon as you leave the date or whatever and you're just like I'm feeling you. That's how I felt about the work.
Well, you never know listen before you find the one or the several, you know, somebody that you really dig and really click with, you got a date and you gotta say, you got to look at the person, you thought was a diamond say, but your personality is trash, it wasn't as good as I thought it was gonna be. But I mean, you gotta try stuff out and so over the course of you trying things, eventually you're going to strike a chord with someone that puts a
butterfly in your stomach and makes you fall in love. And when you feel that love in your and your, I don't know, all the chakras, but whatever is in your stomach, or your solar plexus, or whatever. But when you feel it, you have a responsibility to say, like, what's going on here? You can't have an experience like that and then go back to
like bussing tables or whatever. Is kind of like cool but not like really the purpose and so that's what the, the advice to The Listener. Who's looking for, what's my path that my My mom had a similar experience, she enjoyed
nursing. It was healing and it's an in one way, and then she enjoyed singing, which was healing in another way she said, I want to be a Healer but she didn't know necessarily at the time whether that healing was going to be through nursing which she enjoyed or through music, which she was deeply, deeply passionate about also, but it's the difference between the person that you date but you don't want to get engaged to and the person that you're Head Over
Heels, Love with, let's elope tonight. So the former is great. I think we all go through experiences in jobs and work that occupy that former space. If you're a musician, maybe it's the band that you go to that, you play with to get checks, you know. But then there's this other one, that's that, that's it. Like this band, is it when I'm playing with these players to chemistry, the vibe is different.
And so we have to be aware because if you don't check in, after your transformative experience, Then you can just move on through life without recognizing, that you're walking away from something that deserves further inquiry. So, there's there's a responsibility to be aware of how you feel. And then once you make an observation and say, like, wow, I'm really, I'm smitten with this. Then I have an obligation, an obligation to seize the opportunity to see what this is
about. I'm not saying like, have a midlife crisis because You enjoy playing a gig one night, it deserves further inquiry and as you sit with it and over time you'll see if this is something you can dig your heels into or if it's something that you want to step away from but the first step is the awareness of the butterflies and the responsibility to pursue them and to see what's on the other end of that. Part of this is awareness.
And the next step is is trying. It's just seeing what may I'm curious, how do? You get through those challenges that maybe didn't work out. Like, what's the nurturing that happens there? Listen. If you mentioned some of them but that, you know, accepting, yeah, it's really important. Another good dating metaphor as well. This is actually a dating podcast. This is this fantastic. Any progress. Listen, I believe that everything is a marriage every band on man.
I'm like we're married now. Like if I'm in a business, Worship with you, it's a marriage, it requires the same thing from the individuals, and I can think of a few collaborations that I was reluctant to let go of even though I know the relationship was over. And I'm talking about business, you know, relationships and Partnerships and creativity and Entrepreneurship. And here's the thing it's generous for you to let go.
Like there's this idea in our head that you know, letting go is gonna end something and yeah, sometimes things need to end. It's like an apple that doesn't want to fall off the tree. Like it's remaining here, will only harm the vital nutrients and prevent other new fruit from forming. If you have a blessing in your hand, that's meant for someone else. Then you're digging a ditch for yourself. You're canceling, your blessing and there's by holding onto the things.
It's the same awareness with where you are in relation to that person, or that project of that collaboration, or that vibration, you'll know, if you're truly honest, you know, when it's time to step away and you got to be, I still listen, I still struggle with this but you got to be obedient To your intuition. And if you're not, you're only causing harm to yourself and those that you're clinging to. That's so beautiful. That's awesome, Pierce.
I'm also hearing the theme of surrender here. That's the strong one. Now, you sound like my grandma. That's what your grandma says to under. Yes. Surrender and obedience are kind of like the right there. But, yeah, I think another thing I'm hearing is allowing yourself to experiment your way through it, and try something. And if it's not Landing in a certain way accepting that it's time, to Let It Go. It move on, it might be a blessing for somebody else.
Just like your beautiful story about not winning the election. It was a breakthrough in another capacity and you had that symbolic site to see that. That's really, really beautiful given. What we've heard given where your internal Compass is pointing given where your nutrients are flowing in the direction that you're heading. What's on your radar right now? Like what's where is your attention going? What, what, what seeds are? You're nurturing? I look for this one.
My manager Monica cause connectivity, but I see it visually as kind of Of concentric. Bubbles in a Venn diagram. So so when you say father, for example, that's a big-ass bubble, whelmingly overlapping in that bubble is author. This is my book daddy-daughter day and you know, it's inspired by a song I wrote with my daughter. So like artist while parenting. It's a book that's really rooted in the in the spiritual tenants of afrofuturism which is one of the hats, you know?
And as I'm doing kind of book, tours and readings. Whatever Stella will let me drag her with me. I'm going to and whenever I have an opportunity to live the book out in real life and cancel something, so I can help her do handstands or test out that air fryer.
And, you know, I'm going to do that and it's not mutually exclusive with any of the other kind of Bubbles and hats, that I occupy and where, and as much as possible, I want those Tools to bleed into one another because of the more separate. They are the more directions I need to run.
If I bring it home to the Hearth and I live in the, in the center, then I'm constantly at maximum efficiency, you know, in all the truth and all the spaces that I want to be, I think for me it's really about blurring those lines as much as possible. While prioritizing husband and family first. Then then you know everybody else get in line, this includes what we talked about earlier with letting go.
You know, one of the things that I've realized as far as what do they call it in basketball and they sit players when they're not injured load management. That's what they call it. Okay, it is basically you're not going to play today because we want to save you for the playoffs. Anyway, if I'm ever in a situation where where I'm not managing my life, Load appropriately.
It's important to be aware of that and to let go of things so that I can hold the other things with a more steady hand rather than just be wobbly, because I'm trying to do everything at once. And I think for me, like a good barometer to what I'm capable of is three things, that's it. It's three things and parenting.
And husbanding is one of those three, those opportunities that you give often come back to. And it Ways that people that you wouldn't even have an expected are saying thanks to you. You thanked a lot of people and recognize a lot of people today. Who do you need to give? Thanks to that.
You haven't given thanks to yet whether here today or in general, that is coming up that maybe was unexpected or, yeah, that deserves it. I mean, there are too many people to think, like I said, at the beginning, I have a vaulted perspective because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. Now, as if that wasn't dope enough, I also have like active
homies. First of all Spirits, ancestors angels, helping me and then in it Angels, you know, helping me out, lifted me up and then just our people here on this Earth. And so, yeah, there's a ton of people that I consider mentors. There's a ton of people that I consider mentees and then peers, And then ancestors, even this this very conversation because y'all got me like, awesome stuff. I'm like, damn maybe I don't make this into a TED talk.
You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be right, but, you know, but that is again, that's a testament to the vibe that you're bringing and what you're pulling out of me, which is not common, like you've heard my interviews, they're not all like this but anyway. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of gratitude to go around. For sure Pierce. You're amazing. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom. We're going to tune out with the track. You sent a few tracks over.
You can get contacts for one of them, which would it be? And we'll take it off with that guy. So, I found a tape VHS tape from 1980 Something. 80-some 87. I can't remember the year now of my mom as a teaching artist in rural eastern, North Carolina. And, and this was a song, I'm that was the The actual recording of that song, Justice. Come here real quick. Just give me the tape. There's a tape in that bag says 1988 in the green VHS, right behind you. Thank you.
This is your grandmother. Check it out. And she was, you know, singing no one exactly like you I heard it and I called her. I said Mom, this is beautiful like she's like. What's that again where did you find that? She had no memory. Memory of having recorded it at all, it's been 30 plus years but it was really early in her career and is a Timeless beautiful song. I added some vocals and instruments and kind of try to breathe life into it for 20 21 which is when blacks in the future.
Came out and it was the opener. The album opener. This kind of intergenerational sample from when I was really little kid and my mom was really young and her career and it was really special for me. You can follow Pierce on all social channels at Pierce free lawn or on his website at www.airsofthero.com leave looking up is hosted by myself, me, Ludovic and my co-host, Amir Jan Dolly, and produced by our
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