Have you ever heard of scrupulosity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more Latter day Saints than you think. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with scrupulosity
and how he got treatment. You You can watch this interview for free in the Mentally Healthy Saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen. This gets you fourteen days free access to Sam Baxter's interview about scrupulosity and 25 plus other interviews about ministering to those who struggle with mental health. The content is priceless for leaders. So visit leadingsaints.org/14 for free access. So you're checking us out as maybe a
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The following episode is a throwback episode, one that was published previously and was extremely popular. To see the details of when this was originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this throwback episode. Alright. Today, I'm in my home studio, which is really just a bedroom with a few mics in it with Andrea Lystroop. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you doing, Kurt? Very good. Now you're in town. You're visiting Utah. I mean, who visits Utah anymore? But you do. Clearly.
I'm one of the minority that finds families and people here in Utah. Yeah. Few few Latter day Saint folks here that, are possibly related to you. So you are from where? I'm originally from Las Vegas, and I'm now living in Tucson, Arizona. Nice. So you came up here for a little cool, weather Yes. In the even though it might get me triple digits. But and what do you do down there? I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I run a private practice. Cool.
That's awesome. And you reached out to me. It was a few months ago. You had this trip plan. You're like, I'm coming to town. I have an idea of maybe what we could talk about, and I'd love the idea. Right? What so what? Where did this idea come from and and and maybe that give you an opportunity to explain the topic. Yeah. So I in my practice, I work with a lot of people who describe themselves as feeling spiritually worn out. And I think
COVID has only exacerbated that further Mhmm. Where they sometimes they go to church and they don't feel like they're receiving the same uplifting of the spirit that other people are. And so sometimes that's been through mental health challenges that made it hard for them to feel the spirit. Other times, it's because they have a faith crisis that's going on, and it makes them not connect with the material in the same way that they used to. And when you feel spiritually worn out, it
affects all areas of your life. Yeah. And and, you know, we hope that the the church experience is a place where people leave feeling like, oh, like, I'm so glad I did that. You know? And but it's not always that way. Right? Yeah. I have a number of clients that will say that they go to church, and they end up feeling like there's something wrong with them because they're not getting the same answers to prayers or experiences that seems like
everyone else around them is getting. And so they find themselves wondering, is there something wrong with me or is there something wrong with everybody else? Yeah. And you don't wanna leave church feeling like there's something wrong with anybody. No. You wanna feel community there. Yeah. And and I'm just thinking of, specifically, the leaders sometimes. You know? Like, I've talked with bishops
who are just quietly suffering. They just they really hate their calling and they look forward to it to end and they can't wait to just move on. And, you know, a lot of my experience in different callings was like, no, this is can be a remarkable thing to be a part of. And it broke my heart when it when it went away, you know? And so we want people to have that experience. So we're gonna explore this as far as, I mean, the the
reengaging the spiritually worn out. Right? Yeah. And I was reading over your your outline with my wife last night. She's like, well, it's not necessarily spiritually worn out as much as church worn out sometimes. Do you think there's a difference there? Yeah. I mean, I think it can be. I think sometimes we get over a lot of people talk about how it's not the it's not the doctrine, it's the culture. And so I think there are aspects of the
culture that wear people out. But I also think with depression, for example, I think it can really interrupt your ability to feel anything other than just neutral. And so that includes spiritual experiences as well. And if you are trying to participate in a community, and you're trying to do your calling, and you wanna participate to the fullest extent that you can, but you're not feeling spiritually uplifted, I think you do feel spiritually worn out. You forget what it feels
like to feel that upliftment. And Yeah. It's hard to keep going. Right. And I've seen examples where people begin to find that outside the traditions of our church, you know, where it's like, man, I went to this retreat and I finally felt it there. And so what's wrong with, you know, can really kind of trigger maybe that faith crisis or the kind of dissonance of like, well, why did I feel it there, but not here? And maybe there's something wrong with that or you know? Mhmm. So
it's interesting. Anything else as far as, like, what makes your perspective unique about obviously, you have clients that you meet with, that bring up some of these current concerns. But anything else? Yeah. So, I mean, I think I've always been kind of interested in this topic because I'm the youngest child of I have four older brothers, and I'm quite a bit younger than all of them. And so and I've watched three of the four of my
brothers leave the church. And so I've kind of witnessed from the background how my parents have dealt with some of these things and, kind of seen the effect that my brothers have had. And I think right now with people coming back from church from COVID, I've had a lot of friends reach out and say, you know, I've been struggling with this and that or just kind of throughout my life, I've kind of been the collecting complain about the church. So I've heard
a lot of stories. I've heard it professionally. I've heard it with friends. I've heard it with siblings. And so I have a lot of collective gripes to share, I guess. Yeah. That's a lot of shade. And this COVID dynamic is is interesting because, you know, just, this week, my wife was talking to a neighbor and it was and she said something like, yeah, we haven't come to back to church yet, but we're we're coming to you know, we're we'll do it. But it's more of this feeling of, like,
okay. Here we go again. Right. You know? Like Sometimes the things that have surprised me is it's been well respected members of the community that have served as bishops or state presidents or in various capacities, and they're even saying, oh, it's really comforting to just sit at home and watch it online. And it's hard to wanna put the effort to come back in. And like, these are good standing members that have really been pillars of their community. Yeah.
And I sometimes people interpret that as like, oh, you know, it's a form of lay laziness or apathy. People just wanna watch church in their pajamas. I sort of wince when I hear that. It's like, well, no. It's like there's this spiritual exercise and engagement that sometimes is overburdening that, they're where they could maybe have that under control more in the context of their home.
Right? Right. When I've talked to some young families in particular, they just say, I feel like when I'm in church on Sundays, I'm it's a it's a WFC match like I'm or is that what WWF seems to be? But it's a fight club where you're wrestling, at least for me with my three boys, like, you're always kicking them under the bench telling them to sit down and be quiet. And so it's sometimes it's nice to really focus on the messages and not how people
are perceiving your children. Or some people have hearing issues or lose a number of reasons why people would prefer the online experience to in person. Yeah. I met sometimes during, you know, the watching church online, it was like, yeah, the kids were I I invited the kids and wanted them to sit down and watch church, but sometimes they snuck away to their room. And my wife and I just enjoyed it, and that was kinda nice. You know? Right.
And so that's not an option that you can take the whole crew to to church. Right. Yeah. Well, one of the things whenever I'm feeling spiritually disengaged, I feel really grateful that my grandfather before he passed away, compiled hundreds of pages of his life history and different talks that he had given in church, and he was a state president and done a lot of a lot of a lot of talks in his life. And so one that he talked about was, like, why do
we need religion? Like, why do we need other people? And that talk in particular was really helpful as I was like, making the decision to come back to in person practice was like, we need people. Like, we need that's how you get better is by learning from the examples of
other people. And and I think especially, I really liked there's a talk in general conference called poor little ones, where they talked about how even, like, we especially need the people who feel the most disengaged or the most removed or, like, we need their spirits even more Mhmm. Than perhaps the ones that we always hear. Yeah. That's fantastic. So let's jump into this. So far as what makes people spiritually worn out, what what can we learn there? So I think the one that I was aware
of the first is mental illness. So having depression or anxiety can really interfere with your ability to sit in church. And if you have social anxiety, it can be really hard to reach out to to speak. And I think we've learned that you gain a lot of testimony through the bearing of your testimony. And I've heard people just say that they just physically can't. And so that's an an area where some people feel like they're uplifted
is by sharing their experience. If your social anxiety gets in the way, you're not going to do that. And you're also not as comfortable engaging in the fellowship. So you instead of participating in the church meetings, you sit in the foyer and you, like, read a book and try to avoid contact with people. And so I think social anxiety has a huge component in your ability to feel relaxed and to kind of open
to the spirit. And then I think with depression, a lot of times people incorrectly perceive it as just being really sad and miserable. But for a lot of people, it's just flat affect. They don't feel sad. They don't feel happy. They don't feel angry. It's just nothing. Yeah, like indifferent.
Yeah. Right. And so if that's where you are, then going to church where people are, like, sharing their souls or sharing these beautiful experiences, not only you're not feeling it, but then the other problem is that people will say things that kind of trigger you. So, for example, I've had clients that have talked about praying for something for years and or specifically for a relief from their depression that it's like they've tried therapy and medicine and nothing
is working. And then they hear other people talk about how they had this beautiful spiritual experience and it cured them, and they think, well, how come they got it and not me? Or, like, why is there something wrong with me? And then some people can even take that to the further extreme when they feel like God is punishing them, that
there's something they've done wrong. And so this is them being punished for that, and that can feel even harder to than engage in church if you feel like this is some curse that God doesn't love you. That's and I think sometimes we don't realize how deep that level of despair can go and how triggering those kind of church experiences can be for them.
Yeah. And so adding this, sort of this mental health dynamic to it, depression and things like that that it's again, it's not that the person's lazy or the person doesn't have a testimony, but there's some complexities happening in their mind that, that really feed into this. Like, not only do I have to go to church and listen to these stories, but now they want me to serve in three different ways or, you know, they want us to participate. I
can't always get called on. It's like this or or I the the guilt trips or what I perceive as guilt trips can just sort of add on and then that mental health gets inflamed. Right? Right. Well and, also, I think sometimes we don't understand what it's like to be someone who's, for example, has experienced, like, trauma or abuse. Because I really think a lot of times your ability to feel a relationship with your heavenly father is gonna depend on your ability to
have felt loved by anybody. And so if you come from a family where you weren't feeling loved, or you experienced abuse or neglect, and then perhaps you never were married, or you experienced that same neglect in your marriage, or you're distant from your children, like if you've never really had those loving bonding experiences, it can feel foreign to think that you have a savior that loves you or a
heavenly father that loves you. And that's one of the things when the going gets tough for a lot of people that they can say like, okay, I'm struggling with this aspect of the church or I'm struggling with my relationship with people in the ward or that sort of thing. But at least I have Heavenly Father, at least I have Christ. But I think these that at least kind of statement for people that feel like they don't even have that is kind of like, well, then what is there for me here?
And how do I how do I get that? And like you said, they're not lazy. I mean, I've had clients that say that they have prayed for hours, and they still don't get that reassurance, and that can feel really isolating for them. Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes, there's, I guess, one one thing on, like, this the idea of triggering, like, I wanna make
sure that these people listen to this. It's not that it's not like on the bishop or everybody else that's saying things that you can't say certain things because it may trigger people. But I think it's just important to be aware of how people interpret things that are said with the best intentions. Right? I mean, of course, we want people to stand up and share faith promoting experiences. Absolutely. We shouldn't diminish that or say,
yeah. Let's not do that anymore. But just being aware of, like, oh, like, for some people, because of their background, their DNA, Tony Overbay says all this the DNA, their their brain, their, you know, all these things that that happen in their life, they interpret that a certain way. Mhmm. And maybe the person next to them on Pew doesn't interpret that way. They may feel like, well, I found that incredibly inspiring as the next person's like,
like, more of this. Well, and I think that's where the power of empathy and vulnerability really come in is I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing your faith filled experiences. I think that's why we go to church is to learn from other people and to be inspired and think, oh, yeah, I haven't been thinking about haven't been looking upward. I've been more focused on myself, and that's why I'm miserable. So thanks for the reminder to
Yeah. Incorporate more faith. So I don't think we're I'm trying to say it all that we need to eliminate that. But I think some of the most powerful church experiences I've ever had is when someone shares a vulnerability or or empathy as well. And so that's something when I'm sharing faith experiences in church, as I try to have this in mind of, say, thinking, okay. So if this particular client was in the room, how would they
receive what I what I'm saying? And is there something that I can say that at least validates their experience or lets them know that they're not alone or the other people are thinking of them? Because I think part of it is you just you need to feel like you belong. And one easy way to do that is just to show people that you're thinking of people like them. Yeah. Yeah. And is is does an example come to mind as maybe how you do that or an approach, like, the next time somebody
does wanna make a comment. I don't want people to feel like, oh, I shouldn't make that because I don't know how others will respond. Any any Mhmm. Advice you give in making a comment or Yeah. Well, I I think I think about I went to a testimony meeting about a month ago where the counselor who was in the bishop break opened up the meeting and he shared his testimony and he just said, honestly, I have really wrestled with my testimony in
a way that I never have before. I've really come to experience a lot of doubts in in a way that really surprised me and it kind of scared me. But and I'm still working through it, and one of the things that I find faith promoting is to bear my testimony. And so he bore his testimony of the essentials like God in Christ and, the Book of Mormon and that sort of thing. And he said, I encourage you, the particularly that those of you who are struggling to bear your testimony on whatever nugget is
left. Yeah. And it was such a beautiful faith promoting experience to say, we welcome you because you are struggling. Like, we are a hospital for people that are struggling. And I think it was a wonderful example of opening the door and kinda giving people the invitation because I think a lot of times we hold back and think, oh, well, people don't wanna hear my nugget of a testimony. It's
not good enough. Yeah. Yeah. You have to see this, sort of this process or this cultural tradition of we often turn the gospel into I call it gospel algebra. Like, what I did is I was righteous, or I did these righteous things, Plus, I was consistent about it, and therefore my problems went away. So anytime we sort of put the gospel into this math equation of, like, good works plus consistency equals happy, no problem life. Right? Mhmm. For other people, it's like, okay. Listen.
I did that math equation, and my life didn't turn out that way. Now what? Right? Exactly. Rather than saying, you know, I just suffer there's suffering in life. There's pain, and that's why we have the savior. Isn't it beautiful? Right? Like, sort of that redemptive flavor of some of these comments. But anyways And I also think one of the problems is that we tend to share our struggle
after the fact. So we say, I've been struggling with my testimony or I've been struggling with depression, but now I've overcame it, and this is how I did it. And I don't think we open up the door enough to say, Well, how are you struggling right now? How can we be how can we validate you and support you right now? You don't have to be a finished product to feel worthy of standing up in front of everybody and sharing your experience. I think the
present right now is what we have. This is what we have control over, and this is where we can provide the empathy and the understanding. So Yeah. You don't need to be a finished product. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Really good. Anything else as far as mental health or depression that feeds into this, you know, disengagement of of spiritually? I think just a lot of it has been I've seen it be exacerbated with COVID in that I think it's been a reminder how much we need each other. Mhmm. And
depression and anxiety is fueled by loneliness. And so I think as much as we can do as a church culture to be looking out for the lonely and the the one, really, when you think about the parable of the lost sheep, like, I think if all 99 of us are constantly looking out for the lonely, I think it would make our congregations a much more inspiring place. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is easy to just sort of show up and be like, I'm here. Like Mhmm. In some ways, that's sort of all
you can do. Right? But, to just be engaged and looking for the And I also think once you find the one, I think sometimes we tend to shower them with here. Read the book of Mormon. Read this general conference talk. Like, expect all of your problems to go away. And I think more than anything, when you look at the parable of the 99 and the one, what Christ was doing at the time when the parable came about is he was eating with sinners. Mhmm. And that's what prompted the the the parable.
And so I think more than saying, here's something that'll fix your problem is just saying, here, let's go get lunch together. Yeah. Let's eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the porch. Yeah. Something simple, I think, is Yeah. Yeah. I did an interview with Janice Spangler about this concept of service for solidarity. And, and oftentimes, we default to service. Like, well, oh, you're going through a tough time. I'm gonna bring you dinner this week or I'm
gonna do this for you. But instead of being like, I'm just gonna sit and be present with you Mhmm. And try and empathize with what you're experiencing and realize that the suffering has meaning and purpose, but we don't know what it is yet. And and I recognize that it hurts. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Anything else with depression and mental health? Or No. I mean, it's a huge topic, but I think in general, like, what we can do is just
love people. Don't treat them like a problem to be solved, but a person to be loved. Mhmm. Love that. What do the spiritually worn out actually say about going to church? So what I mean, how do people articulate this in in when they're in that state of just being spiritually worn out and church is still coming on Sunday? I mean, if if anything, it feels like a sense of otherness. Like, all of a sudden, you don't belong. You you are perceiving this community
as everybody else has it together. They understand what's going on, but and it's working for them. So there's something wrong with me. Or you think about, like, that spiritual algebra equation that you're saying, like, what have I done wrong? So if if everybody else's spiritual algebra works for them, then God must hate me. I must be cursed. Like, there must be something that I'm feeling punished for.
Or I think sometimes there's also like the sense of paralysis, where I think a lot of times depression or anxiety or just like faith crises in general can spur the sense of fear or this impending doom. Like, if I if all of these if spiritual algebra is working out for everybody else but me and you have this equation of, like, there's either something wrong with me or there's something wrong with everybody else, sometimes you'll do that equation and you think, well, I really don't think
there's something wrong with me. So maybe this isn't true. Like, maybe the church isn't true. It's the model. It's broken. Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. And so I think that can kind of start to make the ground fall out from under you and start questioning everything about the church. And we don't want to do we don't want our communities to be the very thing that is keeping is making people feel like they don't belong. I think it's that belongingness that is so essential.
And the interesting thing about that is how how that happens almost on a subconscious level, like where then if people can see and people leave the church and it's maybe about historic issues or doctrinal issues, which are, you know, I validate and can get messy there. But we never perceive that. Yeah. But months earlier, they sort of subconsciously went to this process of like, okay, everybody else has this figured out or this model is broken because they articulate that
it's working a certain way. But that doesn't work for me. And wait a minute. Wait a minute. What did Joseph Smith do? Like, okay. Not like, then it starts to sorta you can latch onto that. Right. And then all of a sudden, it feels like everybody else is drinking some Kool Aid that you don't have access to, and it can make everything. And then when your shelf breaks or your ground falls apart, then everything kinda goes into free fall, and then you are
suspicious of everything. And so then you're sitting in church, and you're thinking that there's something wrong about this model, and then someone's saying something, and you just are you're skeptical of everything. And then, like, you will hear comments about, like, don't rehearse your doubts with other doubters or you'll hear things like that. And you well, where do I go? Because these people don't see things the same that I do. So what else is there for me? Yeah.
And I think we really need to do a better job of of opening up people wherever they are. Yeah. And having space for them. I love how you kinda loop in the, you know, president Nelson's recent talk because, you know, the talk was great. Like on paper, you read through it point by point. Love it. Right? Yeah. Then you mix it into just the intricacies of human nature, mental health, and and then these one line phrases sometimes can be a lot less helpful than
maybe we perceive them as Right. Exactly. When you look at it as a whole, it is a very faith promoting talk. And, of course, the prophet is gonna be wanting people to engage in a positive way in the church and look for the bright side and, like, hold to the foundations of the church. Like, you wouldn't expect anything other Right. Other anything else other than that. And but I think the the key is is you apply the the talk to yourself, then you also make room for others for wherever they are.
Yeah. Right. And when somebody comes forward and say, what what president Nelson said here was really hurtful to me, and you wanna say, well, come on. You're just seeing it wrong. Like, the problems with you, and that's not helping because that's perpetuating what they're already thinking is, yeah, I think the problem is with me or with this model, and so something's wrong here. Right? Well, I I really like to look at our relationship to the church as a marriage and so that we have
wonderful things in our marriage. Like, there's a reason why we stay married, and there's a lot of things that make it wonderful and good and a wonderful thing to participate in. Yeah. But then I don't know if your marriage is perfect, but I know mine has its moments where you have to really work through some things, and you have to really kind of have some deep discussions that are painful, and you work hard at marriage. And so I think that's the same thing with
churches. I think if you expect it to be wonderful and uplifting and beautiful all the time and not ever have to work through some nitty gritties, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. We can often perceive the church as sort of, and this is a future interview coming up, but I had this discussion with the seminary teacher as far as, like, church pain. And we often can put the church experience into a box of, like, no, it is
the answer. As if, you know, we sort of mix up Christ with the church at times. Like, no, no, you engage in this experience here and it works. And if it and if you say it doesn't work, there's something wrong with your testimony. Right? But we have to step back and just realize this is messy here. And there's just like a marriage. Like, I would say the institution of
marriage absolutely works, Mhmm. But it is messy day to day, week to week, month to month, or there's seasons where it's like, man, we are off and we really need to sit down and figure some things out or this isn't going to lead to anywhere good. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And I think sometimes applying almost like a trauma informed approach to understanding how people respond to hurtful things. And I think there's there's
definitely degrees of trauma. There's the straight a student who gets their first b. Like, that's a trauma for them, and there's major life earth shattering, life changing traumas. And and I think in marriage, it's the same thing. There's, like, small hurts and big hurts, and I think the same thing with church. And and if you apply more of a trauma informed lens, it helps you make a lot of sense of what people do. And so I think of if you look at trauma, there's there the three responses
is fight, flight, and freeze. And so I think if you look at how members in the these worn out members engage, there's three different options. There's the the freeze mentality, which is the people who are attending church for years and years and years. They're not really participating. They feel like spiritually worn out and disengaged. And I think those are the types that you would kind of classify as the lazy learners because you're like, oh, you're
not reading your scriptures enough. You're not participating enough. But really, they're frozen because they're afraid of something. They're afraid that if they discover that this model isn't working for them, then the whole, like, the whole foundation of where they built their life will fall apart. So in that case, if you're face to face to face with the lion, it does make sense to just kind of hold still and say, if I don't do anything, then I can at least not make
it worse. And so I think that's the way a lot of people are participating in our congregations is they're a little bit unsettled about things, but they have this intense fear of making things worse. And so they just don't really want to do anything. Yeah. And then you have the fliers. They're the people
that flee. And I think those are the ones that just leave, like, all of a sudden, you just never see them again or or you re you try to reach out there on your roles and you kind of do, but they just avoid you or change the subject or that sort of thing. So I think you have the fliers. And then I think you also have there's two different
types of fighters. I think there's the type that go on their social media they publicly leave the church and go on their social media and say all of the different things that they found wrong. Or they could also be the type that are still trying to meaningfully engage in the church, but they say kind of edgy or hard to hear comments in Sunday school that make people nervous, and they don't quite know what to do with them. Yeah. Yeah. It was those were three. What was
the first one again? The There's freeze, fight, and flight. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. That's a great way to sort of contextualize it. And I I appreciate you to bring up trauma and all this because going back to the marriage example, like, you you take marriage in general and then you mix in some level of trauma. So, for example, maybe the wife was sexually abused as a child that will dramatically change the dynamics of that marriage, even though the husband is not a Was not a
perpetrator. Right. Or the perpetrator. Right. And so the same thing happened with church where me, I grew up in a I feel like a very positive, healthy relationship between me and the church and the experiences there. They were life changing. You know, going on a mission
wasn't even a question. Mhmm. And then you take someone who maybe came from an abusive home and their dad was a monster at home, and then you see him at church and he sort of put on this act and that there's some trauma there as far as, like, why are you different here when you're a monster at home? Huge cognitive dissonance. And then that changes the dynamic of that person with
the relationship with their church experience. Right. And when it can also I've seen number of so many people, both professionally and personally, that have known that their family members are abusive and then also seen them hold high up church callings, which can then, like, really do a number on your testimony of the priesthood and the sense of divine callings. Like, how do you make sense of that Yeah. If you know that someone is doing some horrific things at home? Right. Right. And,
again, it just changes the dynamic. It's it's not like it's not the church's fault. It's not that person's fault. It's just mortality. Like Exactly. It's mortality's fault. The the imperfect, you know, the imperfect world and life we live in creates these dynamics that make, you know, going to church and Right. That equation and that model to work. Well, and I think we we expect a lot of
the church. I think we have kind of a culture of perfection and we think that we have this divine access so that our church should we shouldn't have these problems. But then that just reminds me of elder Holland's talk several years ago. I forget what it was called, but it was about doubt. And he just said like imperfect people is all heavenly father has ever had to work with. And I'm sure it's incredibly frustrating to him just as it is us.
But if he's patient with us, then we need to be patient with us. Yeah. And I just love the realizing the nuance that is there and sitting in that and appreciating it for what it is rather than saying, no. No. No. Like, no. This should be this model should work and sort of you almost fight for it. Like Mhmm. I must convince myself that this works or else my testimony is in question or I'll start to doubt. Right? But just say, no.
This is messy. Mhmm. But at the end of the day, like, Christ is this beautiful experience of redemption once we come into him. And this is a model that can bring us under him. Absolutely. And I also think sometimes that it would be helpful for bishops to understand or anybody that really is trying to minister to someone who's struggling to understand the differences and how people grow up relating to the
church. So I feel like in my family, I grew up very much with a don't throw the baby out with the bathwater mentality. So if I came to my mom with questions or said, like, hey, like, this really bothered me or this bothers me, my mom would say, oh, actually that bothers me too. And that's just something that I don't worry about because I have a testimony and all these other things that I find so beautiful that I would not cast the whole
thing out. But I think there's other people that kind of come from more like scrupulous backgrounds where everything has to be perfect. Like, all of their decisions rigid. Right? Rigid. Yeah. And, like, all of their decisions have to culminate into, like, perfection. So even if they make a mistake, it was a mistake towards learning about perfection.
I think that can be though when you come from that more rigid mentality, it's a lot harder to be flexible and it's a lot harder to look at human imprints, the flaws of that we get by touching the gospel. I think it can be harder to forgive Yeah. Those imperfections. Yeah. So when you I'm just curious, like, when you see maybe have a client come in and and you're perceiving there's some rigidity. I don't know if that's a word, but, you know, they're very rigid or scrupulous
in their approach to their faith. And because sometimes I interact with people, I'm just like, oh, like, you're sort of ripe for a faith crisis. Like, we need to, like, open up the to the ambiguity of the gospel and and the the nuances here because if you don't, it's gonna hit you hard at some point. So how do we help people, you know, inoculate themselves maybe a little bit to the that rigidness sometimes invites
that black and white mentality? Mhmm. So are you thinking about how to open them up before they ever hit the faith crisis or what to do when they are in the faith crisis. Like before. So if you had a client come in and it's just sort of like, wow. I can see you're trying to really tighten down the church algebra here and and follow step a, b because that leads to happiness and no problems. Right? Like, is there do you just sort of have
to wait around? Or I mean, it's hard because it's I feel like it's threatening to people. I think those types of people are very much to say there is no black and white. It's like or there is no gray. Everything is black and white. Mhmm. And so then to try and say, well, like, but don't you see gray area here? Or how is haven't you seen gray area in other areas of your life? It can be kind of like, woah. Are you trying to shatter my worldview? Like, this isn't what I
believe. And so I think part of it is meeting them where they are and validating their experience and seeing the benefits of of their perspective, I think, helps loosen people. Mhmm. So I'm a big believer in the finger Chinese finger trap analogy. So whenever you're trying to move someone closer to a certain perspective, you first need to push forward, take a step closer to them, and then that helps them relax their stance and then follow you a little bit more. Mhmm. So instead of
coming to them and being like, hey. Like, here's all these gray areas. Welcome to the rainbow of, like, different perspectives. That's not gonna go very far. I think they're gonna feel like, oh, like you are crazy. You might as well just like you don't understand me at all. Whereas if you say like, oh my goodness, there's so much strength in your perspective. I I look at you as like the backbone of the body of Christ. Like you have so much strength and you can handle a lot of burden.
I think a lot of times those rigid black and white thinkers are always the ones to show up to clean the chapels on on Saturdays. And they're always volunteering to bring casseroles. Like they really are oftentimes the backbone of our church. And so I think validating that perspective can be really helpful and less threatening than saying, let's try to make you have a different world. Yeah. That's helpful. That's helpful. And,
yeah. And and, you know, a lot of therapists, I don't this code of conduct or this official, but, like, do no harm, right, when you're meeting with somebody. And so, yeah, you could go in there and sort of shatter their world a little bit and be like, okay. I'm glad I I'm glad I shattered your world before the world did that for you. Now let's put the pieces together. But they're like, wait a minute. No. You can't do this. So you sort of just validate where they're at and and say, hey.
You know, I'm here to talk about anything, you know. Well, and I also think in general in therapy, people don't often come to you before their worldview is shattered. I'm more of the the person that's picking up the pieces. So I feel like the pre work is not often done by me. I think that's more the realm of friends and that sort of thing is just being supportive and making space for them and whatever. Yeah. That's great. Anything else as far as the what we can do better to help these saints?
Yeah. So I think you're talking about wanting to do better. There's that I think the finger trap analogy is the first place to go. You wanna meet people where they are. And I think one of the ways that we try to help people is I think we try to imprint our brain onto theirs and say, if you can just look at things my way, then you won't have a problem with this. And instead of doing that, just say, like, tell me your story. Like, what is it that you are experiencing?
And just validate me like, wow, that sounds really hard. Like, I can I can see why that would be a challenge for you to come to church? And I think sometimes we're afraid to even say those words that it would be challenging to come to church because we're I think we're afraid of is that giving them the permissions? Oh, you think it's challenging too? Alright. Well, then see, I'm not coming back. Yeah. This is broken, isn't
it? So yeah. But I I so I think we're afraid of admitting that things can be hard for some people, but it actually usually has the opposite effect. And so there's a whole realm of therapy that talks about how the way that we try to fix people ends up making the problem worse.
It's called strategic therapy. And the idea is that if you kind of prescribe the opposite or you kind of do the opposite of what you would normally do, then that can kind of give them the release to to approach you then and to come a little bit closer. And so I think, yeah, like this is really hard. Like, instead of trying to nag you to come sit in sacrament meeting, like, would you like us to have someone come sit with you in the foyer? Yeah. Or just try to be creative
with the things that we suggest? I think oftentimes we double down on saying like, well, have you read your scriptures? Have you listened to general conference? Are you coming to church? Are you praying? Are you praying long enough? Are you praying on your knees? Are you listening to music before you pray? I think we're very prescriptive of what we want to fix the problem.
And if sometimes just doing the radical opposite of just doing nothing and just saying I'm here, like complain, I'm a voice that can receive this and I won't judge you for it. I won't try to correct your opinions. I won't do anything other than be here for you. Yeah. And I think
that's a really important first step. Yeah. And this is the tricky part because as a church leader, we never want to be perceived that we're pushing somebody away from from the church or the church traditions or experiences or ordinances. Right? We should always be bringing them towards them. But I often use the the bicycle analogy that, you know, we talk about trauma. We talk about different life experiences that by the time they sit on the gospel bike, they're dressed up in scuba diving gear
because of all of these life experiences. And then we keep telling them, well, just pedal faster. Pedal faster. Like, well, no. The problem is is that they have flippers on their feet and they can't pedal faster. And so sometimes there's a there's a process that obviously we have to make sure we have resources in place to help them do this, but where they have to step off the bike for a minute and be like, okay, let's get the flippers off of you. Let's get you into some biking shorts and
a helmet. And and then when you get back on the bike, you can zoom. Right. And but that's scary for a leader bike. But but, no, they can't get off the bike. But I remember as a bishop seeing many people, some individuals stepped away from the church. And I'm thinking, I don't know how else you're going to reconcile your life experiences right now unless you just sort of take a breather from this day to day, week to week grind of
the gospel. And I have talked to a number of people where I have felt the level of anxiety that they feel in church or the level of anger that they feel in church or the level, whatever negative feeling that is they're experiencing. And it affects all of them. And I mean, it starts Saturday night where they start being, oh, tomorrow, Sunday, and like the anger, the anxiety or whatever it is starts brewing inside of them. And we expect them to
heal in that environment. And I think like the strategic therapy thing to do, and I've done this before in session where I'll say like, well, have you thought about like taking a break and that sort of thing? And what sometimes has been really interesting is like, it's a scary move to say, like, do you like, do you want to take a rest period? But oftentimes what people will say is like, well, no, because that's where my friends are. That's where my family is, or I enjoy the music or
or I do that sort of thing. And so when you talk about discovering what reinforces people's spirituality, it's oftentimes saying, well, it can come across as manipulative. If you say, well, like, what would you miss if you miss church? Cause then you feel like you're kind of getting a gotcha statement. But But if you do the opposite where you're like, well, like, why don't you just I mean, you're clearly disturbed by this. Why don't you take a break for a few weeks and see how you feel?
Then the reasons that they tell you, like, they're reinforcing it for themselves. They don't feel like they're being, like, pressured or manipulated by you. It's like, no. I just genuinely have a lot of things about the church that I don't wanna lose. And so they're reinforcing it for themselves, which is extremely valuable. Like, that's what you want people to do. Yeah.
Yeah. Rather than this, you know, every time I go to meet the bishop, he's trying to sort of manipulate me into coming to church or, or focusing on, you know, what will get me in the building or whatever, when in reality, I'm, like, suffering inside. Mhmm. Absolutely. Alright. Anything else in this section with we can do better to help these saints? You mentioned Gordon B. Hinckley's three three ingredients. Any anything we haven't hit on in different ways?
Yeah. So I think we haven't really talked about an assignment, and I think sometimes we get so caught up in viewing these people as projects. And so a lot of people will say like, well, as soon as I told the bishop that I was struggling, then all of a sudden my ministers, like, showed up three times a month and I haven't seen them in five years. Or I like, I'm seeing all these people that, like,
really have had no relationship with me. And people do not want to feel like a project that can feel like any ministering efforts you do are box checkers and not because they actually care about you and you don't want to do that. And so I think sometimes when you giving them an assignment, helping them feel needed and finding a purpose that they can serve in that makes them feel good and comfortable, I think is a good place to start.
And that might, I mean, I know for my brother, he, when he was struggling with it, he still loved the scouting organization. And so he would participate that way. Or someone else's like, oh, I, I can handle the library. That's a safe place for, or nursery is a really popular, like I love children like
that can be a good option. So I think finding ways that they can serve and if they can't handle a calling, like that's respectful, like, finding helping having them help plan cool service projects or whatever meaningful way that they are willing to engage in, I think, is a really important thing to do. And just not looking at them as a project.
Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful that instead of, like, again, going bombarding them with service and casseroles or, you know, visits or whatever, but saying, you know and I'd be open to your ideas or thoughts here. But is it just simply making that invitation of, like, how would you like to engage in our religious community or the gospel and then see what ideas come to the surface and When I think I mean, it's two things. Like I said before, you can't look at people like a
problem to be solved. So the purpose of having them participate isn't because you wanna, like, boost your numbers or, like, make them come back to church. It's because you genuinely love them and need them. And that's what I loved about that. Poor little ones talk so much is that it talks about how much, like we especially need those that are struggling. They have this experience that enriches our wards in ways that like those of us who have never struggled can't, can't
grasp. And so I think really communicating them that, like, we value you. Like you are an essential part of the body of Christ. And if you like, can't be right in the center, like how can we, like, can you be the softer hands that kind of can reach out to other people? Can you help other people feel like they belong and feel welcome? And so I think just finding a place for everybody in the body of Christ and really communicating
that you need them. This isn't that you you just want them to feel good about yourselves or to validate that the church is true. And if people come back, then it makes you feel, like, better about yourself as I genuinely love you and want your company. Yeah. I I remember often times I would tell people, you know, if if they were really struggling and be like, do you know there's I know there's at least five other people and really sign it feel the same
way as you do. Mhmm. And I need you in that room to sit by them. I need you to know that they're not alone. So Mhmm. I would love for you to to join us. And I know there might be tough weeks over others, but we need you here. Right? And really expressing that need in a in a sincere way. And sometimes this can go off the rails of sort of, like, you know, we really need someone to, to set up chairs or, like, it's like like, no. You don't. Like, you'll find somebody
else, you know. And but to really articulate why they're needed. And if that doesn't come to mind, if you can't think of it, maybe something to ponder over and think about and then return to that discussion. Right? Yeah. Well, I also just kinda back to this view of being a project. I really I like to look at faith development in the analogy of my bougainvillea that I bought last year and almost killed. A bougainvillea? A bougainvillea. What is this? So it's a beautiful
flower. It has it's green. And on the when it blooms, all of the leaves turn pink. And so it's just like this beautiful pink, majestic bush that is gorgeous. And so last year I bought a really expensive fully bloomed one because I wanted to skip the maturing process and have a nice backyard. And then during the winter, it you can't handle a freeze and it froze in Tucson. And so all of the leaves fell off and my bougainvillea was the ugliest sticky looking branch ever. And I looked at that and I
was like, I'm pretty sure that's dead. Like, I don't think it's coming back. And I was about to just rip out the whole thing and plant a new plant, but I decided to give it like one last chance and look on the internet to see what it is I was supposed to do. And they said, just keep pruning until there's some sign of life. And if you can't find any sign of life, just cut it off to about an inch above the soil. And so I kept pruning and there was
nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So I went right down to the inch above the soil and went, well, okay. I hope this works. And then what they, what it says is don't overwater it because they don't have any leaves that can process this water. So if you pour in too much water, then it's gonna experience root rot root rot. Wow. And so I think that's something what happens is so there's people that are feeling disengaged and
they're barely hanging on. They're, like, debating whether they should just rip out the whole thing and find a new belief system or whether they should hang in there and hope that their Bougainvillea grows back. And if you treat them like a project and overwater them and say, here's all these resources, read this, read that, do this, that's overwatering. Whereas if you just say like, hey, I'm
here. Like, I'm gonna attend to you every now and then show you that I care show you that I, like, want to be a part of your life. I like want to welcome you in my garden, but I'm not going to overwhelm you to the point where I push you away, then you're not going to experience root rot. And then miraculously, my moving VA grew back.
Amazing. And it's beautiful now. Cool. So I think and I think that pruning process is for a lot of people is saying, okay, so maybe you've you're struggling with church history or that sort of thing. Or maybe you're struggling with feeling the spirit or depression or, like, you've had experiences of abuse in your family. That's making it hard to like view the priesthood or in a positive way, or like whatever it is that you're struggling with, like prune it off.
Like you don't need it from now and then pruning until you find something. And so I think that, like, you can survive spiritually, like, on a grain of a mustard seed, really. Like, you don't need this, like, beautiful flowering testimony to show other people. Like, it it can grow back if you just treat it well. Yeah. I love a good metaphor. I love that. I love that. And because with you, I'm just thinking, like, sometimes we're like, okay. It's dead, but let's see if we can
revive it. Fertilizer, water, you know, more sun. Like, what what else do we need to do? And the person is like, I am dying the more you try and help, so stop trying to help. Yeah. But sometimes all you really need is time. Yeah. And there's so many of those inspiring stories where it's like an individual stepped away from the church ten years, twenty years, and they just needed and then maybe the in their mind, they thought, you know, I I'm done. You know, I am dead
as far as the testimony goes. And then over time, you know, the savior continues to be with them and encourage them along. And over time, that that green leaf sprouts. Right? And it's like, okay. We have a starting place now. Exactly. Yeah. And I remember using this for a object lesson in my young women's class and showing them the one point, like, this piddly little green leaf is like, look. It's working. Yeah. And I had no idea that it would turn it back into this beautiful thing
that's something to be proud of Yeah. Much later. So Yeah. That's awesome. Root rot. That's a new term. I love that. So what about, what would you prescribe the opposite look like? Maybe talk about this concept with, quote, Carl Rogers. The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I change. Yeah. So the idea with that is it's it's hard to be motivated to change when you feel like you aren't good enough
as you are. It's kinda like, if you're not gonna love me for who I am, then, like, why am I going to engage with you? And so if I find this a lot that in in marriages, you'll have a couple that comes to me and say, like, I'm having all these issues. Like, how can I fix my husband? And I'm like, well, don't try to fix him. Love him first. And they're like, oh, well, then I'm gonna go see someone else because, like, I don't wanna do that. Like, I can't love him until he changes.
But the reality is is it's that very act of showing unconditional love Right. That then gives you the fertile soil and the sun and the water and what you need in order to be able to make changes and grow. Because I think otherwise it just feels like pressure or manipulation or that sort of thing. But when it's unconditional love, it's like, you know what? Like, I actually do wanna show up as my best self. I wanna be a part of this and I wanna
bring my best self to it. So if I accept who I am, then I can also make who I am better. Yeah. Yeah. And this is an interesting, you know, as you mentioned, this paradox with this concept of acceptance because I don't I don't like, I've talked more a lot about this. I wrote a a newsletter about it in the context of it's pride month we're recording in June. And this concept of, like, well, we need to be we need to be completely accepting of our LGBT brother and sisters and people like, no,
Curt. You don't understand. If we do that, then they'll think we're giving them permission to go sin and live this lifestyle. Like, no. No. No. No. When we're completely accepting, they know that it's a safe place. They engage with us. And you'll be surprised that someday they may lean in and say, so tell me about your Jesus. Like, interesting. You know? And then there's, again, that's not the point of we don't be completely accepting so we can manipulate them into we can catch
them in the cross. Well, and then it can feel like this. Like, well, what is it? Like, what is your game plan here? And and I I see this a lot when I work with people who are trying to overcome a pornography problem where I'll say, like, you need to accept yourself. You need to forgive yourself. You need to say that who you are right now is good enough. You need to understand that the savior loves you right now, even if five minutes from now, you go and engage in a problematic
behavior. Like, he will still love you. Your love is unchanged. And it's interesting to like, you would think that people would be like, well, yeah, like, I want to be loved and that sort of thing. But I have so many clients that are resistant. And they're like, well, but but then how do I keep myself from like, engaging? It's like ruining my life. I don't want to do this. And I was like, but you don't understand that the shame cycle of feeling like you're worthless is exactly
the same that's perpetuating this problem. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's just this, like, this tweak that we need to make with how we communicate, especially to youth. Because sometimes there's this overemphasis of, like, aren't missions great? Like, oh, look at Tommy down the street. He's in Ecuador and look here's he's so happy, you know, his mission. Like, don't you wanna be like Tommy? Right? And it's like, and
we gotta go to the temple. Like, we sort of over reinforce these behaviors and we lose the opportunity of saying, you know, Billy, I couldn't care less if you go on a mission. Like, I'm just glad you're here and you're my friend. And I just accept you whether you go on a mission or whether you have a pornography problem. Like, whatever. Like, I accept you here. And that's gonna be the difference of them saying, oh, maybe I'll hang around a little bit
rather than these people don't like me. And if they knew who I was, they would reject me. And I I feel like it comes we give too much credit to the cognitive distortion that sin is enticing. Mhmm. And I think we're afraid to say, I will love you no matter what, even if you're sinning, because I think we are afraid that that gives you the rubber stamp of approval of go do it. Mhmm. But I really believe that creating goodness in the world is more enticing
than sin. And I think we're afraid to accept that because what if we're wrong? But I think people are inherently good. We wanna do goodness in the world, and I think we need to trust ourselves more. Yeah. And I've I've noticed that in my own relationship with my father in heaven, it's like when I've let go of the idea that I'm doing things because I don't wanna make him mad, but instead I do things because I've been just shocked how overwhelmingly he loves me. And then it's like I
beg for more commandments. I'm like, okay. Yeah. You've given me these these great command. Like, what more can I do? Like, I I don't drink coffee. Can I stop eating carrots? Like, how about that? Like, what like, what else can I do for that one? Because we rec it uncovers the sanctifying nature of a loving God who wants to make us better, not because we are good, but because he wants to make us great. Mhmm. You know? And
that's that's the beauty of his grace. When we are going to become more and more like heavenly father, the more we grow. And I think that is our that is our natural tendency, really, is to become better, and I think we need to trust that in ourselves. Awesome. Alright, Andrea. I I feel like I've torn your outline apart. I've jumped all around. Thoughts? What what else? Anything else that we need to touch on before we wrap up? I think just being mindful of the power of right now.
So don't think about prescriptions for the future. Think about how can I connect with you right now in this moment? How can if you have had struggles with abuse or feeling loved or whatever it is that makes it so that you have a hard time engaging. Like how can I show you a loving moment right now? So that it's not that I'm saying like, oh, here, go home and make a million friends that are going to love you in the future. How can I love you right now?
And I think that's, that's where the beauty of transformation and healing comes is right now in the moment. Yeah. And that's such that's such a liberating idea for a leader where and we've talked about this before, like, when you remove the responsibility of fixing other people's problems, and it's like, actually, your job is just to connect with them, like, just to hear them, just to
listen. It's like, I can do that. Like, I I don't know how to fix their pornography problem or why they hate church or whatever, but I can love them. Yeah. I can love with them and just accept them completely for where they're at. And then you'll magically see the step your the savior step in and, and begin to change it. That's remarkable. Right. Well and there's this principle of
healing. My husband's a physician, and when you do stitches on people, there's this principle called approximate, don't strangulate. The premise of it is that your body already knows how to heal. So all you have to do when you're doing stitches is just keep people like, keep the two edges of the wound close and your body will
do its work. And I think that's the same thing as you're trying to heal people from their spiritual fatigue is just keep them close in whatever way they can tolerate and trust that the savior and the spirit already knows how to heal itself. It's not anybody's job to heal them. We already have the power within us to do it. Another metaphor bomb, Andre. This is you've got brought some great metaphors. It was worth the price of a metaphor. This is great. I love that. Like,
proximity. Like, you don't have to fix it, but just bring them in proximity and love them and and watch them stand back and see God work. It's amazing. Exactly. Alright. If people wanna reach out to you, if they're in Tucson and they need a great fifth Sunday lesson, I mean, whatever it is, like, where where can people reach out to you? Yeah. So my website is andrealiestrip.com. So my website would have all my contact information, and I'd be happy to help out in any way that I can. I love
doing this kind of thing. Perfect. Alright. The last question for you is as you've had opportunity to lead or serve in in the way you do through your profession and through church and whatnot, how has being a leader helped you become a better disciple of, or follower of Jesus Christ? I love taking the focus away from yourself. I think a lot of times it's easy to get caught up in your own struggles and that keeps you from progressing. But when you can love someone else,
then that brings you forward. It helps you have a purpose, a sense of purpose. And I think purpose is what drives progress. And I think that's how, that's how I've become closer to Heavenly Father is just by helping other people and loving them. And that concludes this throwback episode of the Leading Saints podcast. Hey. You made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good? You know, I I tend to pinch myself that this is what
I get to do. I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it. Drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode.
I mean, you're not done with the dishes or mowing the lawn or working out, so you might as well keep it going at the bottom of those show notes and, make sure you you listen to each one maybe a couple times on a few of them. Remember, to watch the interview about scrupulosity, go to leadingsaints.org/14 for free access to the mentally healthy saints virtual library.
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.