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Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now for many of you that are brand new, to Leading Saints, it's important that you know that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization, 501c3, dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead, and we do that through content creation. You get so much positive feedback on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles on our website. You definitely gotta check it out at leading saints.org.
And on their homepage at leading saints.org, you can actually find the top 6 most downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if you're new, like the content, wanna jump in to some of our most popular, podcast. So if you're new, like the content, wanna jump in to some of our most popular episodes, head there after you listen to this episode. Another leading saints interview. And let me tell you what, this one one I was looking forward to, and I'm so glad I got to participate in it.
It was with Stefan Tager from BYU. He's a BYU religion professor, and he studied his PhD around the concepts of giving sermons. He uses some big words, and we'll get into that and clarify exactly what he studied. But I wanted to invite Stefan into the Leading Saints studio and just ask him specific questions about giving a sermon, or in our faith tradition, it's usually known as giving a talk. What are some good do's and don'ts, best practices? What do other faiths do that maybe we
could learn from? And how can we really make the sacrament experience focused on Christ but also not make it overly boring or have people drone on? Or when do we use scripture references or or quotes from general authorities and anyways, I probably talk too much in this interview, so bear with me, but I just I'd look forward to other opportunities that we'll have that bring Stefan back into the studio
and explore other concepts. A really fun one as especially those who find themselves speaking a lot or those who are preparing to speak in sacramenting. I think you'll learn a lot here. So let's jump into it. Here's my interview with Stefan Tager. Alright. I kidnapped him from BYU campus. We're here with BYU faculty member, Stefan Tager. What's up? How's it going? Now you are in the religion department? Yes, sir. I mean, I've heard that's the best job ever. I really
enjoy it quite a bit, actually. Yeah. I feel like that's, like I always ask us to, like, when I interview Seminary Institute guys or even BYU guys, like, that's that's, like, the pros. Right? Like, everybody, every seminary teacher wants to teach at BYU someday, I guess, to each their own, right? No. It's it's wonderful. It's the perfect combination of getting 1st and foremost to teach, but then also get to research and interact with other academics and it's really I love it. Totally
enjoy it. What what classes are you teaching there, Corey? I teach Book of Mormon and New Testament. So, yep, both halves of the Book of Mormon. I taught the non Latter day Saint class, 2 semesters. And then I also taught I teach 1st half of the New Testament, but I do other classes too related to that. Yeah. So the non Latter day Saint, tell us how does I don't think we realize that happens at BYU. Yes. But there are non Latter day Saints that go there.
Yeah. Yeah. So they have a class. I taught the Book of Mormon class for non Latter day Saints and a lot of them are international students, but then sometimes a lot of athletes as well. Uh-huh. And so, it's great. It's mostly a course for building understanding and connection that way. And my other classes are overtly about building faith and the savior and the restoration and conversion. And that one's more about, let's try to
understand each other. Let me let me teach you the text of the book of Mormons to understand the story line and the and the doctrine theology in the text. Interesting. Yeah. It's great. So would you say out of all the non Latter day Saint students at BYU that most likely they're taking that class or depending on schedule, maybe they'll fall into
a a typical class? Yeah. So there are core classes you have to take at BYU and so they would take a church history core class and and then they would take a book of Mormon core class as well. And I think they take an intro to the church class. Right now, Jared Halverson's teaching it. Not that good of a teacher, kind of a minor to declare, you know. Just kidding. He's one of the best. He's one of the best. Yeah. He is.
I use very similar PowerPoints. In fact, I use the exact same ones, but then I just word it in a way. I say this is how we view it. This is how we look at it. Maybe you can gain some life principles. I'll sometimes ask from I'll say something like from an evangelical point of view, how would you say that? Right? And so we will just kinda dialogue, do interfaith dialogue as we're going through.
But mostly, it's just from our perspective, this is how we view this text and this principle and and then what do you think? And a lot of times they'll say, oh, I resonate with that. And sometimes they say, oh, we we would say it differently. Yeah. You know? Nice. Everybody leaves friends and it's all good. Hopefully. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. They actually handle it very, like, they're very gracious about
it, the students. And I think they understand that they came to BYU and it's a religious institution and so but they're very kind, you know, and they're open. They'll ask tough questions and stuff, you know. Yeah. Awesome. Alright. And so what did you get your PhD in? So, yeah, my PhD is in instructional psychology.
And so but my research focuses a lot on homiletics and which is study of preaching and also the use of storytelling in preaching or the use of storytelling or narrative structure and instruction a lot. So I'm really interested in in the power of story and creating story like experiences when we present and, how story can lead to human transformation, that kind of thing. Awesome. So hemolytics? Homiletics. Homiletics. Yeah. Like a homily. Yep. Oh,
okay. Gotcha. Yep. So what what led you towards this path that's because especially as Leonard is saying, we don't have a sermon tradition. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. It's actually really practical. As a seminary teacher, I used to teach seminary and institute for seminary and institutes. I would I would just sort of wonder how to organize a text or scripture as
you're trying to unfold it. I was really interested in how to create a unifying theme around a scriptural text if you're teaching a few chapters. And so I just kind of started researching that and it led me to homiletics. So I wish it was more dramatic than that, but it was just very practical. How do you organize and think about scripture you're trying to teach it? And I'm sure it comes in handy as a teacher. 100%. Yeah. Presenting
content. Yeah. Yeah. So I I basically organize my lectures as a giant sermon but with student participation. So it's not just me up there talking, but the structure and the way I think about it is very informed by
Yeah. Homiletics. Yeah. I mean, would you say the majority of Christian traditions have a sermon tradition where they go to church and it's expected that the pastor or somebody like that, a visiting pastor, is going to talk at us or or deliver a sermon for 20, 30 minutes where our tradition is quite different. Right. Is that a fair generalization?
A 100%. Yeah. And what's interesting is within different denominations or traditions, you'll get different styles of preaching and and what the sermon will actually look like. But the vast majority of Christians are expecting to go to church and hear the leader of their congregation deliver some kind of sacred communication related to a text. Yeah. You know? And there's to me, there's pros and cons to pretty much any approach to how to how
to do church. Where I see a lot of growth, I mean, is since we were young young people in primary, we were giving some form of a talk and standing in front of of in front of our peers and and talking the the gospel, right? Or through the youth and then as missionaries and as dole we all take our turn of speaking and so, like, how would you is that unique to us or do you have any idea where this sort of tradition came from or what comes to mind with our tradition? You know, that's that's a really
good question. I'm not too sure on why we have sort of a congregational, you know, rotation of of preaching. I don't I The biggest part of is the lay ministry. Right? We don't have the bishop isn't sitting around on a Tuesday planning his talk or his sermon. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Interestingly enough, I haven't done a ton with Latter day Saint
preaching history. Mhmm. I know a little bit about the basics and things like that, but I've actually always just been more interested in how can we effectively communicate scripture to the modern world. Yeah. You know? And so but there are definitely times when I'll hear someone preaching in our, you know, sacrament meetings where I think, man, this is incredible. This is amazing. I would put this up against anything I've heard. Right?
You know, and and I've said before, you know, our preaching in our church, it's a little bit of a box of chocolates. Right? You know, it's but that's part of the beauty and majesty of it. Right? Yeah. I think for one thing, it requires the congregation to stay humble and see the goodness and truth in any message Right. Which is really builds a sense of unity and makes it a a revelatory experience rather than some kind of performative Yeah. Experience. Right? And there's, you know, within
our faith tradition, there's definitely different styles. Right? You can tell the person like, oh, this person is seems experienced. They don't seem nervous. They're doing the other people are like, wow. Like, they're so nervous. I'm just praying for them. Whatever they say, I'm good with. Just I'm so glad they're they're having the faith to do that. Right? Is it because, I mean, is it in our faith tradition, should it be seen that, oh, it's your turn to give the sermon or is a sermon
a completely different animal? Or how would you how would you define that? Yeah. You know, we we use the word talk, but it really is a sermon on at least on some level. I mean, sometimes people I've heard them say, I've been to a Latter day Saint church and you guys are not doing sermons. Well, that just depends on
how you define the word, sermon. Right? And so I think it's okay to think about that as long as sermon doesn't mean carry with it some of the negative connotations that come with that word, sort of pounding the pulpit, angry, telling people what they're doing wrong. I'm not close to interested in that kind of sermonizing. Right? That that doesn't seem to be very
helpful. Yeah. Because there's this connotation that I'm speaking to this group in order to motivate them to change or to act differently and I see this a lot, you know, in just through leading saints that, you know, I recognize us more readily as and I've been this leader where it's like, you know, you're the bishop and you've had all these people come in who struggle with pornography and you're like, I cannot believe this like one after
the other. Alright. Next this Sunday, I'm gonna talk at these people until they get it because they obviously don't get it. Right? So I think in our traditional human nature generally that we think if I wanna motivate somebody, I'm gonna bring them or motivate group of people. I'm gonna bring them into a room and talk at them when in reality, that may not be the best way to motivate people. But what I mean, is should it be seen as a motivational thing or trying to change what comes
to mind with that? Yeah. I I think first and foremost, the the purpose of a sermon is to build faith in Jesus Christ that leads to conversion. Now that's I think we all kind of agree on that broad level, but that raises the really important and, you know, very long discussion. The question really, what can we do that will most effectively
lead to change? And ultimately recognizing that this is an act of God, this is a miracle, the Holy Spirit is supposed to enter into people's hearts and we can't directly control that. Jesus says the spirit is like wind. Right? Comes and goes when it wants. And so there is that central element that sort of underpins a lot of what we do.
When we do hiring and we're looking for other professors of ancient scripture, one of the things that I'm really interested in and asking people is what do you think a professor can do that's most likely to lead to change? And if we step back and ask ourselves that question, you know, someone might say, well, teach the scriptures. And I I totally agree, but why not just stand up and read them for, you know, you know, why why do we do commentary on the scriptures? Why
do we explain them? You know, so to think really precisely and specifically about what we actually think will help people change is a really important discussion. Yeah. Because that's people walk into sacraman sort of using sacraman as the Sure. General, you know, universal experience when we come to when it comes to preaching. But should that meaning be about changing? I mean or or should the message be about,
like, with the intent of changing people? Or sometimes it's like because, again, I guess we need to remember who does the changing. Right? It's the spirit. Right. But we sometimes put that load on our own shoulders because I'll listen to someone could just stand and share their, like, conversion story and I walk out a change, man. Right. Not because they told me I should act differently, but because I felt the spirit. And the spirit helped me say, I you wanna be better,
don't I? I'm like, yeah. I wanna be better. Right? So, I mean, is there anything that was in mind? Like, what should our intent be with the sacrament meeting? Yeah. So, I mean, I think the handbook here is is so helpful because it says we are to talk about Jesus Christ. Right? And so as Christians, we're not there to just give a bunch of good advice or just teach a bunch of principles. Quite a few commentators have said, our job is to declare the good news and not
just good advice. Right? So essentially, what we do in a sacrament meeting is we remember what God has done by sending his son. We declare the gospel, the good news, but out of that flows implications for our ethical life, our behavior, the way we live in the world. But you're right, central to what we're doing is focusing on the love of God and then our response to what God has done through his son in the world. Yeah. Right? And and then the restoration in these latter days. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. And I don't I don't know if I don't mean to keep dwelling on this and maybe there's nothing here, but we can add it later. I just so often as in in the leadership position, right, You have standards. There's numbers involved, like, maybe temple attendance is down or, you know, people are saying no to callings. And so, you know, I I I remember being in that state presidency with the, you know, finally a state conference is
coming up. We have a venue where we can get them to change and remind them that they're kinda not living up to the standard we expect. Right? But that's like an opportunity for me to re to correct myself because I think about, like, is it I think in 3rd Nephi 27 talks about, like, Jesus draws people onto him because he hung
on a cross for them. Like just knowing the what he did for us like I'm like I just want to follow you like whatever not because he told me I need to change but what he did for me. Right? And so that's where it's like if we can just focus on Jesus and his redemption like that, that's what what we need.
Right? No. That's that's really excellent because one way to think about it as a leader when we're facing difficult issues and we see some patterns in the interviews that we're conducting is to ask ourselves, what's the issue here? And then rather than just teaching behaviors to try harder Mhmm. But to ask ourselves, what's really going on? What's the cause of
this? To do some study, prayerfully scripture, words of living prophets, and ask ourselves what's leading to these behaviors and where's the disconnect between someone's connection to the savior, our father in heaven and the savior, and those behaviors. Mhmm. So president Kimball said, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, that sin is unmet need, right? I'm paraphrasing. Mhmm.
And so to analyze what are the unmet needs that are are showing up behind whatever problems we may have at a stake or ward. And then to ask ourselves, how is that need met in Jesus Christ? Right? So for example, you take something like pornography. There's obviously going to be some psychological or biological elements going on there. Other people have pointed to the loss of connection that people feel like a sense of aloneness.
And so how does feeling connected to God and his son and then also my faith community, my family, those gospel truths and principles that flow out of the what the savior has done on the cross for us. How could that help me as I'm trying to teach people to live a life of chastity, right? To turn
away from pornography. Yeah. So to frame it as these sins are manifestations of something deeper that's going on and then do the hard spiritual work of really trying to diagnose why that's there rather than just here's 3 ways you can, you know, 3 behavior changes or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. Sometimes, you know, in in evangelical tradition they have what's called sola scriptura, right? Where Yeah. Basically if it ain't in the
bible you have no standing, right? As far as what you're preaching if you can't point to it in the bible it's kind of not there, right? Or it's not doctrinal or you're out of line type of thing and
it's a general description. And I feel like we have our own kind of even though we don't believe in Sola Scriptura because we have living prophets we have additional scripture as well but sometimes we have our own version of like okay I'm giving a talk and as long as I quote from 5 general authorities and I'll share some scriptures in there as well, I must be in bounds when in reality you can use all of those things in ways to teach lessons, teach a message that maybe isn't exactly doctrinal.
Right? What comes to mind as far as, like because people, I'm supposed to focus on Jesus Christ, which is good, and I need to teach doctrine. And we throw these statements around without really understanding. Well, what does that mean exactly? What what comes to mind? Yeah. So for me, it this is, this works best when we frame it as discernment rather than compliance.
So we use scripture and the words of the prophets to better discern the truth, to get a sense, a revelatory sense of what is true and what is accurate. And so if we're just quoting scripture or prophets just to check it off, our motive will be there. But if we actually believe that God is working through those who lead the church in unique and authoritative ways, we'll try to be in tune with what they're teaching. And often, quotes from the leaders of the church will show up very naturally.
The they'll sort of president Nelson, so to so to speak, will raise his hand and say, I I belong right here. Can I just have a word right here? And he'll say, of course, president Nelson. You and so if if we're connecting with scripture and words of the prophets, we'll have good judgment about how to present the truth and what how we feel the Lord is working through the leaders of the church now and and what matters most to his kingdom in
our current age. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I sometimes get in this trap where I just feel like I'm like, I have my own agenda, my own perspective, and now I I just go find quotes that support me. Like, well, he you know, elder so and so is out of here. So I must be right, you know. But even though there's so much context and things go into that, but, you know, it's hard to do all that in in the course of a a sermon or a talk. Right? Yeah. So Yeah.
It's it's tough. You know, the way I look at it is sort of to of course, you're gonna hear you're gonna read quotes that really affirm your own personal beliefs too, but that's why it's so helpful to have a quorum of the 12 and a first presidency. Yeah. It's also bring people to the table who will challenge you as well and make sure you're staying honest and you're staying balanced.
Really, more and more I start to think of doctrine or the capacity to both speak it and discern it as a skill to really be close to scripture and the words of living prophets and have the good judgment to discern how to word things. I think that's more of what I look at rather than just a list of propositional statements, this is true, this is false, that's definitely a part of it, but also the skill to discern how to
communicate that and interpret it. Yeah. I often, say like in this come follow me era where we're all going to YouTube and finding our favorite, you know, come follow me resource which they're all great and really helpful and I'm glad they do them and some of them are your colleagues, right? And sometimes we get this message unintentionally that the reason we study the gospel is so that we can all talk like BYU professors.
You know, religion professors like, oh well let me I know the Hebrew translation of this and I can take you to the you know, I can cross reference do this and that when in reality we're trying to have a change like a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. And so sometimes we do that, we think I'm giving a talk so I kinda gotta sound like a BYU religion professor a little bit, right?
I've gotta like bring the the Hebrew history or, like, this is what how they handled back then or or we do this in gospel doctrine as well. Right? I've given the advice to people, like, when they're speaking in sacrament, I say 80% story. Like, I wanna hear your story. I wanna hear, like, your conversion. I wanna hear that time your baby was in the hospital with cancer, whatever. Like, 80% story. And the rest, you know, scriptures
and doctrine and, you know, whatever. Because and I tell that to people because it kinda it sort of releases the stress of, like, oh, I could tell my story. Like, I don't have to be a BYU professor for 15 minutes. Oh, good. I can tell my story for 12 and and work in, you know, tied to scripture and thing. But is that good advice? Would you push back on my advice of 80% story in a a sermon? Because you you talk about stories Yeah. Big
part of what you studied. Right? Yeah. No. I mean, God could have inspired his prophets to write scripture like this. 1st Nephi chapter 1 verse 1, pay your tithing. Verse 2, go to church. 1st you know what I mean? But instead, the primary or at least a significant amount of how scripture is communicated is through narrative. And there's quite a few reasons why. One one of the top reasons why is because, at least as far as looking at it as a rhetorical method, is that scripture is experiential.
So propositional statements, clear, clean, doctrinal truths are essential and important and they provide clarity. Mhmm. But a story provides an experience. And when someone gets up and tells a story over the pulpit, people vicariously experience the story alongside with them. Even stories you know the end to. That's why we'll rewatch movies and we'll still feel scared at certain moments or triumphant at other moments. And so if we want our teaching to be more experiential,
you you story. Right? That's one of the primary reasons why it's so powerful. Yeah. So when you think of, like, the prodigal son, for instance, like, by presenting that story, a scripture story, it doesn't necessarily have to be your your personal story, but that may relate to the person who's felt like the prodigal son or the parents who have the prodigal son in their life. And so they they're able to sorta attach to that narrative in unique ways rather than just saying,
you should all just love people. You know? Right. Right. That's the command, just love people. And they were like, I don't know what to do with that. But the narrative gives that Yeah. That ability. That space is actually what also brings down their defenses. Because when I hear a story, I also know that I can attach to it the way that
I choose to. I don't feel attacked. And so like a story will lower the defenses and then I can start to identify in the way that the spirit directs me or the ways I'm particularly connecting. I mean, obviously, Jesus told lots of parables and, I think the scholars say, at least in the synoptics, about a third of what
he says are parables. Wow. And so people could overhear those in a sense and start to identify where they're gonna come into the story and the defenses go down and they have to use an active agency to engage with that narrative. Yeah. And so is there something to consider is, like, do we default to scripture stories than our personal stories or does it matter or is there a balance there? I think it's whatever the topic calls for in the situation.
Obviously, we want a lot of scripture and words of living prophets in our speaking because that gives us authority. It keeps us within the range of what our tradition teaches and keeps us on target. Right? And also scripture itself and the words of living prophets, particularly their stories, give us experiential material to teach. Right? And so it gives us something concrete to really work around. Often in traditional Christian churches, they'll read a text before they actually preach.
The scripture itself is filled with concrete material. For example, the prodigal son, the one you just named, it talks about the prodigal son being welcomed home and giving a robe and a ring and shoes on his feet. And there might be symbolism behind that or Jesus could have just been a really good storyteller and he's trying to help us to experience that gospel principle as he tells that story. Yeah. And on that note, like, interpretation,
I go back to the story. I was, like, a teacher like 14 year old kid and I was asked in when we had priesthood opening exercises to share the spiritual thought and I forget where it's you may know where it is in scriptures it's like do not rest the scriptures. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not I I intervene. And so my point was like, yeah. So don't like let your scriptures rest on the table over there. Like, actually get into them, use them. Right? And obviously my naivety arrest me
change the scriptures. Right? Or Right. And so sometimes there's this pressure again in this unintentional quest of everybody becoming a BYU religion professor, we think, oh, I I shouldn't interpret them. I've got to go to YouTube and see what John and Hank say. Right? About interpreting them. Like and so we
have this hesitancy of interpreting scripture. And so then when we're asked to talk, it's like, well, I don't I better find someone else who's interpreting that when in reality, is it bad that my 14 year old self misinterpreted that scripture? No. I I applied it myself and, yeah, I was off. But in that moment for me, it helped me study my scriptures more. Right? So what are your thoughts on just should we be more willing to attempt to interpret the scripture even though we don't have
a PhD? Yeah. That's a really good question. So what I would say is I would use lots of wisdom and caution when I'm trying to apply scripture and it depends on what you mean by interpret. This is called hermeneutics, the study of interpretation. It's a very important field and there's a lot that goes with it. But I definitely would never read into scripture stuff that goes beyond obviously what the church is teaching or Yeah. Things that just don't seem to fit what the author is trying to say.
Uh-huh. So I would develop good exegetical skills. Exegesis, reading what the text, you're trying to draw out the meaning. Who's talking to who? What are they saying? When did they say it where? And I would use the best commentaries and resources I have, including prophetic resources, what have prophets said about this text. But at the same time, I would also not be afraid to bring a message. Mhmm. Just make sure that it fits within the framework of scripture and living prophets.
But sometimes we feel like our job is just to copy and paste. Copy scripture, copy words of the prophets. But it's okay to, especially as a church leader, to get a sense for what my people need and bring that message and preach that and teach that in such a way that's most likely gonna lead to them embracing it and acting on it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm definitely trying to develop that personally of, like, of not just, like, grabbing a quote and sharing it, but, like, what was the whole
talk about that this quote came from? Or what book did it come from? Like, my favorite one is the the old David O'Makay, you know, nothing failure in the home will never compensate for what is it? No success in life will compensate for failure in the home. Right? Yeah. Turns out, it wasn't David O'Makay's quote. He was quoting somebody Interesting. From right? But we we throw it out there. Like, isn't that a great quote? I'm like, well, yeah. He used it, but he
that's not he was quoting somebody. I actually bought the book that was written about what the quote is because like that, I can point at the source. Anyways but this is I appreciate that encouragement of just being like rather than saying, oh, here's a quote. I'll use that That really build what's the context of it? What's the story? Or Yeah. Yeah. We love the prodigal son story, but why was Jesus telling it? Where was he? What was he trying what was he trying to communicate to?
What audience was it? Right? Right. Right. And have a message. Don't be afraid to say, here, this is kinda what I'm trying to say. And Mhmm. In fact, in a lot of preaching manuals, they'll have you write down what you're trying to say in one clear insightful statement. And I I think that that's hugely important. In fact, the other half of that, and maybe just as important, is to frame how we're speaking around a question that people care
about. And so I would ask myself, what's the question I'm answering and what's the insightful answer I'm gonna powerful insightful answer I'm gonna try to offer that's based in scripture or within the context of scripture in the words of living prophets. So how what suggestions would you like if I'm speaking in church or giving a lesson, how do we make sure we have, like, a core message? Because sometimes we can get lost in in it all. Like, you know, I shared this and gave 4 quotes and Right.
Alright. I'm done. Like, oh, glad that's over. But the message was lost or people don't know what the message was. Yeah. Often people will call me or ask me, say, hey, Stefan, can you help me craft this message or think about this presentation? And almost always the first question I ask them is, what is the question you're trying to answer? And then have that question and have that answer. If you just get really clear about that, a lot of the mental spiritual work is already done.
That's really difficult work to get really clear about what is the question and what is the answer I'm offering? And then we can start to build around that. What are scriptural texts or a single scriptural text that really deals with this question and answer? And then also what are prophetic quotes, right? Yeah. And so that requires both empathy to understand where the class is at or the congregation is at, but it also requires study and prayer to come up with something that's actually helpful
for the people I'm I'm speaking to. Yeah. And it really focuses your mind in that preparation stage. Right? Right. I'm not just sharing random quotes. I'm trying to get them there. Yeah. And really good stories obviously always focus around a central question. And so if we can raise a question and then sort of tease it out and study it, and maybe it's this. Well, maybe it's not that and sort of refine our thinking almost in front
of people. We bring people on a narrative journey that will then in the middle or towards the end, provide a climactic answer. And that's just how humans learn. They sort of wrestle with an idea and they what about this? What about that? They bring in new data and then they come to clarity about it. And so that has a very natural flow to it in our sermons if that's how we structure the way we preach and teach you. And we're actually recording
this day after October 2024 general conference. I'm just like thinking back like President Eyring, the focus that I picked up was like the simplicity of the gospel, like teaching the simple gospel. Right? And I mean but you go through you can easily go through depending on how close you're listening of like there was a clear message in a lot of these in a lot of these talks. Right? Yeah. And that helps us retain it. It helps the audience retain it because they are so focused. They're not
just preaching the general gospel. Right. Yeah. And President Irene is such a good example of this because that's someone who is simple, who is not a simplistic soul. I mean, he has a DBA from Harvard. He's a brilliant human, but he's he's reached that simplicity like the paraphrase in his elder heifah now, on the other side of complexity. Uh-huh. Yeah. And
so that's a really powerful combination. When the audience can tell you know what you're talking about, not because you've name dropped or scholar dropped or you're flashy, but you have a depth of insight and soul, hopefully. But then you also present it in a way that the average person can understand it. That's I mean, Jesus' parables are very simple narratives that scholars have been wrestling with for 2000 years, discerning the meanings and insights. That's the
sweet spot. It's both depth and being simple. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's awesome. Anything else as far as having a clear message that as as people are thinking through a talk or delivering a message Yep. How do they focus on a message? Yeah. One way is to ask myself, how is my the people I'm going to be speaking, what are they struggling with? What are they thinking about? And then ask myself, what scripture stories also the characters in that story face the same problems?
And then the very story itself can start to provide answers and insights on the problems that people are wrestling with or what conference talks have dealt with this very same issue. And then our answers come with authority and insight as we preach. Mhmm. Yeah. Makes sense. Is there, this is probably inappropriate question, but here we go. I'll let you know. Okay. Like, Elder Holland. Everybody loves Elder Holland. Yeah. And and and this, tangent,
squirrel. I have this, like, with unlimited bandwidth, I have this podcast idea. I think you're my cohost for it. In in a in a world where we have no other responsibilities, we're gonna create this podcast where I would love to, like, go through the the history of general conference talks or just general BYU talks, whatever, and, like, analyze talks of being like, k. What did he do here? Do you see how Elder Holland used that story?
And then what it did, like, by the end, then he could bring that in or whatever. Because I go back to I can I have some of these conference talks that they're not even apostles or whatever, but they're like, the way he formulated that talk, I can still remember it and I, like, go back to it and, like and those things? So, like, why is Eller Holland so good? Like, what does he do? What would you say? Well, first of all, he's he is he's one of the best. Absolutely.
Yeah. I actually wrote in that my first academic publication almost 10 years ago was analyzing an Elder Holland Tarr Really? From a preaching standpoint. Yeah. And I published it in the religious educator. You can get it online. Just type in, using Stephan Tager, using the elements of narrative. Perfect. We'll link to it as well. Yeah. And and so that's just, that's yeah. And one of the things Elder Holland does is he does have a sense of
movement through his talk. So you start off with a theme and then has this built building he's analyzing a topic and he's bringing in new insights and he starts to lead to these climactic moments. He also uses lots of concrete language. So nouns and description, right? And so particularly nouns that you can connect with the senses. Like, this is a very powerful way to preach. This is just 8th grade English class, show don't tell. Right?
Elder Holland does that. Elder Holland also reflects the emotion of the content as he delivers it. So as things get more intense, his voice reflects that. He also things are lighthearted, he's lighthearted. Right? When things are more serious, he's more serious. And so he follows naturally, and it's not a performance. It's just letting the material and I'll I would obviously let him speak for himself. Right? And he won't he won't come on my podcast, but I'm trying.
But the material itself dictates the way it's delivered, and it feels very natural and authentic to who he is. You know? Yeah. Plus, Eller Holland is insightful. Yeah. Right? He helps us see scripture and text in new ways. Right? PhD from Yale. You can see why. You know, he knows what he's talking about, but it never comes across pretentious. He doesn't it's not flashy. Right? He's just insightful and assessable at the
same time. Yeah. You know? And, again, that's what I don't want, like, people thinking, like, what how would Elder Holland give this talk? But as maybe expert level stuff, but I appreciate, like, he just he really is himself. You don't feel like, oh, he's playing some character or you meet him in real life and he's like, oh, wow. That guy's different. Like, he Yeah. You hear him in casual interviews. He's still that same guy. He has a way with words and and so he just is who he is and that just
be who you are. Right? Right. Right. Absolutely. And and one of the things you'll react to with Elder Holland or other great speakers, one of the ways that you can tell it's a good talk or good sermon is you'll think, I wish some of my friends who are not Latter day Saints could hear this. Mhmm. And that's one of the best ways to tell that you've reached the audience very well. In fact, in connection with sort of what am I trying to
say? What where do I start? I would really think hard about who am I speaking to? Am I speaking to the bishop or the stake president? Am I trying to be impressive? Am I speaking to the BYU professor in the audience? Do not speak to them. Right? Do not. Right? But the way I would say it is I would speak to the average member in my ward with non Latter day Saints in mind. One possible way to to really think about how our congregations can grow is are we speaking to the people we want to come?
I can't remember exactly who says this. It's either Tim Keller or Andy Stanley. It's one of these 2, but they basically said those are both traditional Christian preachers. 1 of them said whoever you preach to is who will come. And so if you only speak to Latter day Saints, guess who will keep coming
are just Latter day Saints. Yeah. But if we speak to Latter day Saints, but also dealing with the concerns of those outside of our tradition and the everyday practical things that humans are dealing with, then that's who's most likely to come. And oh, and by the way, our congregation, the Latter day Saints inner congregation, they're dealing with the concerns of non Latter
day Saints as well. Yeah. And so precisely the thing that will help them is speaking to people, to the average person outside of our faith because those are a lot of the things that just everyone are dealing with with wrestling. Yeah. And that, as you were saying that, you mentioned Andy Stanley, that's what I listen to his a lot of his sermons. He's an evangelical pastor and he has this thing where he even says it sometimes, assume assume that they're in
the room. So he'll say things like, for those of you that are believers, yada yada yada. But for those of you who are not, here's something else to consider. So he's assuming there's people coming to this church who maybe don't even believe in God or Christ or you know, but he's still speaking to them and it draws everybody in and it I think it makes it for so people wanna come back because they're like, oh, like I'm I didn't sneak into this club but this is for me too. Like, this
message is for everybody. Yeah. I just wonder how profoundly a revelatory experience it would be to ask people outside of our tradition to come in and sit and say, hey, what was this experience like for you? Yeah. You know, and we can't we're we can't some things are core to us and we can never change. We're not gonna be other churches. We are who we are. Right? But could could we get insight about how maybe the way we're coming across and what we sound like to people outside of our tradition.
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to learn there. And we have people show up all the time with the missionaries. Right? It's like maybe take that extra step of reaching out the next day or saying, now what was that like? Like, I'm just looking for feedback here. Did were you interested? Were you confused? Were you did anything shock you? Right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I don't know, Kirk. Do do you think it would be appropriate just to ask someone to, hey. Will you just
come to our church? Right. Just so you can tell us. Yeah. We need a focus group. Right. We need a focus group, you know, and so and maybe that's beyond our purview and our responsibility, but thinking like that at least, I think, could provide lots of insight. Yeah. You know, going back as you're talking about the messages and, like, president Nelson's really good about this of think celestial. Right? And the you know, he's really pushed the the
covenant path and those types of things. I even go back to I remember talking to him years ago and he's I don't know if you remember when he said ask the missionaries. He said it, like, a bazillion times where he's like, ask the missionaries. And you knew exactly like, that message was clear of, like, what he want us to do or now that now we have this term of think celestial that people can attach their meaning to and and and apply their own personal lives.
Yeah. It's really effective. Right? Yeah. I mean, you look at the savior's teachings and some of those things obviously have stuck around, I mean, clearly for 2000 years, you are the light of the world. Right? Yeah. And so or or whatever phrase is a city set on a hill. And so those kinds of sticky, insightful phrases are really can carry a message past just the time in the pulpit. Awesome. Let me ask you this question this way.
From the the bishopric standpoint who's giving the topics to individuals, how can we best set up individuals to succeed by the way we give them a topic to speak on in sacrament? So that's a that's a really, important question and I think, a lot of your listeners obviously will be will be wrestling with that. So I think there's a few things you want to balance. 1 is giving people direction while also giving them flexibility.
And so sometimes you may just give them complete flexibility and sometimes you may give them a very specific topic. But I think normally people want something in the middle where they can kind of get a sense of the direction but also have some ability to bring their own thoughts
and insights into it, right? Yeah. And then also you might want to create, I know in our ward, the bishopric has created a simple Google doc that they share with people who are gonna speak and it'll have quotes from the handbook about the purpose of sacrament meeting, the purpose of speaking, and then it has a few key principles. Use scripture in the words of the prophets. You might wanna give personal examples or stories.
Frame your speaking around a central question and then also make sure you tie it back to Jesus Christ. Those are the 4 things that our bishop Rick gives Oh, wow. To people and those are really powerful, simple principles, I think. And then that way people have something sort of to work with as they're
about to speak. And then also, I could be wrong, but it might be wise to give them a little bit under the time you want them to speak because people have a tendency to speak longer, particularly at the beginning of their talks than they often realize. You know? That's actually a really difficult skill to develop. How do I stay within time? And a lot of our the people in our congregations just don't have the practice doing
that yet. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, for me, if someone asked me to speak for 5 minutes, I I try not even to think about preparing because I I over prepare. Like, it's just an outside talk too long. So it's like, you really get a sense. And as I I remember speaking at an event, like, they gave me 30 minutes to speak and I looked at my outline. I was like, no way. That's gonna take 10 minutes. But sure enough, it took 30 minutes. And I'm like, always, you know, trying not to trick myself
that way. But best way to how would you best way to start a talk? Any anything come to mind? Yeah. So particularly, I think starting with the concrete, a specific example in time and space. So a story or an example, particularly one that is going to raise a question that people care about. So sometimes people will offer a personal example of someone wrestling with a gospel principle or idea. And Of course, we want to be wise and appropriate. We don't want to force something
very dramatic on people right away. We want to give people emotional space and make sure that we're not trying to force a certain emotional experience on them, right? But I would typically start it off with a story or something concrete. It's a great way to get people's attention. Yeah. If you're trying to be really clear, you start off with a thesis statement. This is what I'm gonna talk about. Right? If you're trying to draw them in and create an experience,
often a story can be really helpful. Yeah. I'm just my mind goes to Elder Renlund, talked about dynamite. Mhmm. You know, and the church is like dynamite, and I thought it was really effective how he at first, I'm like, wow. I'm in, like, a chemistry class. What's going on here? But I it drew me in of, like, the I didn't know the story about dynamite and how it was created and, you know, and then he had that foundation and then tie it back in to his message, which was really effective. Right.
Right. In fact, I think last conference, he started off by speaking about a story with him kayaking. Yeah. That's right. Right? And so right away, you're out on the water and you're kayaking with all the Renlund. And so that's if you start with something concrete, that's what that does. Cool. Anything else about stories or using stories that we haven't mentioned that would be helpful? Yeah. I think one thing to remember is to not overexplain them. It's
sort of like telling a joke. If you have to explain it, it probably didn't work. And so, the leaders of the church and the prophets throughout history and particularly the savior are experts at just giving us the right amount of cognitive space to have to do some work for ourselves. So tell the story and you might need to do a little bit of tie in, a little bit of clarifying, but most of the time people can really sense what you're trying to say if the
story is told right. And that makes your teaching and preaching more engaging because the second you subsidize people's thinking for them, they'll turn off their brains. If they know that I'm not going to have to do any work, then they'll just say, oh, they're going to make it super clear for me. And you don't want to be confusing.
You don't want to make people have to do too much work, but allowing them some mental and emotional space to finish the story can be a really powerful method for both engagement and for letting them make their own applications. Yeah. Would you say, like, just practicing beforehand? You know, just I found help in that just sort of okay. How am I gonna go through this narrative? Because we think, like, oh, I should tell that story when I was a teenager and this and that
happened. I'll tell that. But and then when we get in the process of telling it, we're stripping all tripping all over ourselves. Right? Yeah. The older I get, the more and more I am for practicing beforehand. Yeah. And, of course, we need flexibility for if we wanna go somewhere or take a direction or
the spirit directs. Mhmm. But there's few things that can be more helpful when you're about to teach or preach than really giving it a practice, running through it multiple times, even so that you can get the right delivery, the cadence on the words, the volume, the speed, all of that. And because not all of us are speaking every single week, having a chance to really practice
through it can be really helpful. Yeah. And I think about, you know, there's been such a more and more emphasis on making our all means, especially sacramenting, focus on Christ. And I mean, we're all on board. Let's do that. But sometimes execution is a little more difficult. Did any any thoughts come to mind as how can we do that even as an individual speaker or as a bishopric? I mean, what comes to mind? Yeah. No, that's such
an important question. I think the first thing I would say is how knowing that our justified state or our covenant relationship with Christ provides the motivation for obedience. And so when we frame a diligence and obedience as a response to the cross and what the savior has done for us in Gethsemane and Golgotha, that feels more central to the Christian message rather than just a list of behaviors we're
supposed to be doing. Mhmm. So for example, if we say, hey, don't be lukewarm in your faith, we can always ask ourselves, how is the savior not lukewarm towards us? He is singularly focused on our well-being and our eternal life. And so we should be as a response, singularly focused on loving God in response and seeking the well-being of other people and their eternal life, that kind
of thing. So if I was teaching the principle of tithing, I might say because the savior has gifted us with the riches of eternity, of course, we can freely give back to the church. Yeah. And to others. Any gospel principle, I can think about how the savior has embodied that towards me and towards others and towards the father, and then now my obedience is a response to his loving grace. That's awesome. Let's sort of rewind and give
us your crash course then. Okay? I'm about to give a talk or a sermon or whatever. I'm I'm about to speak even maybe you have a work thing you gotta do that has nothing to do with the gospel. Right? I don't know. But, like, give us a crash course on the process we're going through, and it seems like it starts with finding that core message that you're trying to communicate. So step 1 for me is what is the question that I'm going to ask and raise? And then step 2 is what is the
answer? Okay? Mhmm. And so and then when I raise the question, I wanna make sure people really get a feel and sense for the importance of this question, why we wanna answer it, examples of people struggling with the question, and then I start to provide answers. Now, the way I like to teach and preach is I sort of lead up to one climactic answer at the end, but you might
provide a series of multiple answers. So the question might be in a sacrament meeting talk, how do I make scripture study meaningful? And how do I do that? How do I make this regularly meaningful? And you might provide a few answers. I typically leave the most insightful, powerful answer for the end. And so once I have that framework, the next thing I'm going to do is start putting in resources. What are scriptures, quotes and stories that I'm going to
put in to what I'm telling? Try to think of concrete examples, real life stories on either side of that formula, the questions or the answers. So that's those two things is first, what's the question and answer and then 2, what are the concrete resources I'm going to fill out, flesh out my sermon with or whatever I'm doing. And then 3rd, finally, how does this relate back to the savior? How does this relate back to Gethsemane and Golgotha?
And how does his goodness provide the motivation and his sanctifying power to actually live out Christian lifestyle? Right? So maybe those three steps would be a good crash course in preaching. Yeah. Any general resources you recommend, books or YouTube videos or things that would help someone better prepare a sermon? Yeah. So on my website, stephantayor.com, I have some recommended reading on preaching and so there's some books you can go there. I've also written a few things to our
tradition on preaching. And so if you just go to academic writings, I have some stuff written to Latter day Saints. Some of it is going to be technical to journals and just don't even pay attention to that. That's just, but then there's other articles in there that are more assessable about how to preach, you know, or things like this in a Latter day Saint setting. So that that might be a good a good way to think about
it. And then I also would take my favorite speakers and I would actually analyze them. I would say, what are they doing here that I think is so effective and what are the principles and practices that they're engaging with that I can then incorporate into my own preaching. Yeah. Awesome. Also, I wanna make sure we plug because you you you have your own podcast, and it's focused on sermons. You could say general conference talks. Right? The themes you and Dave Butler
talk about just themes from conferences. How would you frame it? Yeah. Yeah. We typically don't do an analysis of their preaching stuff. Right. Right. That's that's my podcast that I'll never do. You know? But no. But Dave and I just it's called Revival, and we take the good news of the gospel, and that's kind of the way we frame
it. And we are each episode focuses on one conference talk and then we just I pick my top three headlines and then he picks his top three headlines and then we just say, what is the good news of the gospel? It's being taught by prophets, seers, and revelators and and other leaders of the church. Yeah. It's a good listen and you guys are always make it fun
and easy to listen to. And I'm just saying for those who maybe teach Elder's Quorum Relief Society that's focused generally on general conference talks and maybe, you know, you wanna find the talk that you guys already talked about and see You can learn there. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else we need to plug for a statement? Another thing that might be helpful is a few years ago, I wrote a book of a collection of
sermons. They're narrative sermons, so they kind of have that shape, a lot of them of a story and sort of lead to a point and often end in kind of like a parable, give you enough room to sort of think about what is the message of the sermon and apply it to your own life in the way that you think is best fit in the way that the spirit's directing you. So the name of that book is called Ears TO Hear Many Sermons That Make You Think. Wow.
So it's just a collection of 21 sermons based on Book of Mormon text and that might be an example of how some of these homiletic principles might play out and when we were speaking and and and preaching in church. Awesome. Well, maybe that'd be our reason to bring it back on after I read that.
So really good. I'm gonna tweak our the final question I typically do, but how has your journey of giving sermons, studying sermons, especially of the great sermon giver, Jesus Christ, how has, this sermon journey helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? Yeah, that's such an interesting question, a beautiful question.
And I think one of the things that studying homiletics and studying the way the savior teaches has helped me, one of the ways that's really helped me is that teaching and preaching and restored Christianity in general is a social activity and it requires us to read people, very carefully, to not just understand the doctrine, which is essential, but but also understand where people are.
And good speakers are actually really good at reading humans, at reading what their needs are, what they need to hear, and how they can say things even if they have to be direct and bold, how they can do that in a way that is edifying, uplifting and inspiring.
And so I think one of the things that preaching has really done is it has helped me, at least in some ways, open myself up to the humanity of others and just see where people are at and how we can communicate the gospel to them in a way that's helpful. Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting the Leading Saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider
and you picked this one. If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, we would sure like to hear about it at leading saints.org/contact. And if you could quickly text or email this episode to a leader you know, I bet it will bless their life. You can mark off your good turn daily and let's even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you and help us share this content.
Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff betrayal from Jeff Struer by visiting leading saints.org/14. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.