The Power of Building Consistency | An Interview with Jeffery and Jami Downs

- Have you ever heard of Scrupulosity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more latter day Saints than you think. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with Scrupulosity and how he got treatment.

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I actually went through my email before this episode to see when was the first time somebody recommended. I reach out to this couple and it was 2020. And I mean, that's now we're in 2024. That's four years ago. 2020 doesn't feel four years ago what's happening. But I have Jeff and Jamie Downs here with me four - Years ago, Kurt. That's amazing. - I think 20. There were three separate people who said, would you get these people on the podcast? ? Now I've done it. You can stop emailing me.

But, uh, Jeff and Jamie are the authors of Streaking is their subtitle. Oh, the Simple Practice of Conscious, consistent Actions that Create Life-Changing Results. - That's a mouthful, man. - It's a mouthful. , you had a marketing team that we - Did. - That's good. I love it. - Oh, we did Absolutely. - . Awesome. Now, uh, I mean, streaking, there's, so the, the titles that, uh, how to Get Your Bishop Streaking, I mean, there's so many titles we go with this. Oh - Man, isn't there ?

- But, uh, again, a great marketing captures your attention. So where, where does the story of the book streaking begin? - It begins with me. . Yeah. Yes. What happened? So it was several years ago, what, eight years ago? Nine years ago? Mm-Hmm. . And we had been running, we were runners and still are runners. Still are runners. Good . But at this point in life, I was running, I had reached a place where I had signed up for a couple races. I had, I did. I wasn't born a runner.

And so I used races to help keep me motivated to be a runner. And I picked running because helped me to stay healthy. That was really my ultimate goal. And I had reached this point in life where I had run two marathons and had signed up for a couple half marathons. And then I started to sign up for races to motivate me to run, but it wasn't working anymore. And so I'd had two races that I had signed up for, got the t-shirts for, but never actually showed up for the race.

Mm-Hmm. . So we were talking earlier - About, we call those charitable donations, happen. Yeah. - We were talking earlier about shame. And I was like, I hate that I have these T-shirts for these races that I never run . And so I was at the hairdresser getting my hair done and was actually going through the news while I was waiting for my hair to process. And I got discouraged because the news was all very depressing.

And so then I went to the DTT news app and the first story that popped up was couples streak running for 15 years. And I remember thinking, this is the desert news I should be able - To trust. What is the world this out? What - Is the coming to? Yeah. . So I clicked on the story and it was a beautiful story about Jeff and Diane Shumway, Uhhuh that had been running at least a mile every single day for 15 years.

Wow. And that was a huge mind shift for me because I was thinking about this running and I thought, huh, I wonder if I could do that. Could I change the way that I think about running from, I need to run a faster pace or a longer distance to could I just run a mile every single day? And so at the end of that appointment, I called Jeff who was traveling a lot at the time, and he was just getting on a plane. Yep. Headed - To Boston.

I remember it forever. Yep. - And I only had a few minutes 'cause the door was closing. And I said, I just read this great article. Do you wanna go streaking with me - ? I was like, yes. . I don't know what you're asking me. It's a couple building activity. . Yeah. You wanna get a couple building activity relationship.

But yeah, when she, when she asked, I was definitely, - So when I first looked at it, I had to step back a little bit and be pretty honest with myself and say, I don't know if I could genuinely run a mile every single day. And so I thought about, and I thought, if I'm transitioning from this idea of the activity that I'm doing to, I wanna be consistent in what I'm doing, then I, I had to look at myself and say, what could I really be consistent with?

Mm-Hmm. . And so that's when I set my first streak. But for as I, I thought I could run or walk a mile six days a week. So I chose to take Sundays off. I'm like, I don't wanna feel that on Sundays. Mm-Hmm. . And I gave myself the option of walking. 'cause I thought there's days that just long as - It's a - Mile. Yeah, just a mile. Long as it's a mile. So that was where minimal, that's where it started with us. - And then, and so then she, so we started streaking together, and this is in 2015.

And we were about 300 days in to the streak when I was dealing with another problem that I had, which was my teeth were falling outta my head because I had such bad periodontal disease. Oh, wow. Periodontist or dentist will tell you, in order to prevent any type of periodontal disease is to do two things. Brush and floss. - It's always the floss. What's with these guys? - I don't know. Right. And I hated flossing, hate flossing, - Which is so still today.

I think most people, I struggle with flossing, but it's like, it's so simple. - And it is. And so we were 300 days into the streak. I had just gone to a dentist's appointment where I'd had my teeth cleaned, they were hurting. It was painful. And I knew that all I needed to do was floss. And I'm like, what is my problem? You know how you have those conversations in the mirror, , and you're looking, and I'm looking at myself thinking, what is your problem? You know, this is good for you.

You know, this will help you avoid many dollars of dental work and it will help you to feel better as far as your teeth are concerned. So what is your problem? And this was a prompting, this was direct prompting I received, and it was this specific thought, why don't you just set a streak to floss your teeth? And it hit me like, yeah, I've been running for 300 days run, walking for 300 days without any type of a break. Haven't even thought about it.

Why don't I just set a streak to floss my teeth? Well, that was 2,932 days ago. Oh, wow. And I have not missed, those - Are not dentures folks. Those - Are not dentures. Those are the real thing. . But, but something else hit me at that point too. And I do believe that this was direction and prompting, because the other thing I was struggling with was my spiritual reading or scriptural reading.

But my spiritual life, the scriptures, and forgive me for saying this, had kind of become guard cardboard to me. Mm-Hmm. . It's like, yeah, I read 'em a lot. I'm just like, you know, I, I'm not getting anything out of 'em per se. And I know everyone will tell me, well, you weren't putting enough into it. You weren't doing enough about it.

But along with the streak of flossing my teeth, I thought, well, if this works for physical things, then can it work for spiritual things or intellectual things? And so I thought, you know what? I'm gonna set a scripture reading streak as well, and see how many days in a row I can read at least one verse of scripture. Now, this is a few days later, but that one is now at 2,863 days. Hmm. Where I haven't ever missed reading at least a verse of scripture. And it's obviously gone into other things.

And this started to work where nothing else really did. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of books written on habits. Okay. And a lot of people turn - Seven habits, you know? Right. , - There are seven habits of highly effective people. Yeah. A lot of people quote Atomic Habits. Yeah. That's a great one. And there is, there's some great, great principles that are in there. There's a couple other habit books. The Power of Habit. The Power of Habit, and Tiny Habits, I think. Okay.

So I had actually, atomic Habits wasn't out when I was there, but the power of habit was Mm-Hmm. . And I had tried to set a habit to floss my teeth or even to read my scriptures. And the problem that I've found, and as I've since researched, is that habits are something you do automatically after you've supposedly done it enough times. It's - Part of almost like it's part of your nature. Yeah. Right. Like Right. Just you do it, - You do it.

Well, what's interesting is not everything turns into automatic. In fact, as you look at good growth activities or anything that leads to your spiritual life and intellectual life, any of those things that are growth and progress, none of 'em will ever turn into a habit. Anyone that says to me, I have a scripture reading habit. I'm just like, no, you actually decide intentionally to read your scriptures every day, which is really good, but it's not a habit.

In other words, if you were to say, for example, read your scriptures for two years and all that two years you read every single day, and then you decided, you know what? My life has changed. I'm doing something a little bit different. My environment changed. All of those things changed. And all of a sudden, two to three months later, you look back and you're like, I'm not reading my scriptures like I was. Well, that two years was your mission. Hmm.

And now you're off your mission, your whole environment changed. Yeah. You're not reading the scriptures anymore like you were. That's because when you were doing it on your mission, it was intentional and deliberate. And so now as you get off of that and into regular life, there's other things that happen, and therefore it's really not automatic.

- Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I, you know, you see these, some people have made videos or you hear it brought up, like, if we treated our phone like we treated the Book of Mormon, it would be, and I kind of hate it, , have a comparison, because what we go to those scriptures for is different than what we go for to the phone for Yes. And there when dopamines involves, oh yes. I don't often get, get dopamine from the scriptures. Right. But I get a lot from the phone.

And so naturally we go towards that acorn. Right. . Um, but I think in this, you know, building consistency, a lot of what you talk about when you talk about streaking is you're putting some dopamine into the Book of Mormon. Right. Or into the scriptures or to the, the flossing or whatever. Yes. And so you're, you're, you know, leveraging these chemicals in our brain that cause us to go to the phone.

Instead, we go there and we kind of get that hit of dopamine, not because we're watching random funny memes, but because I'm making progress. That feels good. Right? - Yes. That very well put as, as you look at, because what streaking does now is it activates a part of your brain that is the gamifying part of your brain. Mm-Hmm. . And if you study gamer, uh, gamer philosophy or gamer, what you do when you're gaming is there's four different personalities for gaming.

And any one of those can be activated with streaking. And as you apply streaking to, for example, reading the scriptures or any number of things which we'll get into, you activate that part of your brain, which does cause the dopamine, which does give you, I just made some progress today. Yeah. I had a little bit of success. - Yeah. So let's just step back and maybe Yeah, - Like from - The, - We got, we, we went right down into - Yeah.

That's great. But I mean, obviously this leading saints, we talk about leadership in the church and, and consistency is a core leadership principle. I think every leader wants to, I mean, if they're going to lead effectively, whether lead themselves or lead an organization, consistency is gonna play a role in that. And so maybe Jamie, lead us into like, where's the gospel intersect that we haven't touched on as far as like in a world of Come follow me and apps and all these things.

Like anything else to say in that intersection. Yeah. - So I'll start by just real quick so that there's background to it that as we were doing this, we kind of realized that there were three laws that helped us to have success as we were streaking. The first law was to make it laughably simple.

And that I always claim that is my law, because that to me was the thing that's helped me to be successful is to recognize that in order to have consistency, it needed to be something that I could do on any day of my life. And so I often, when I set a streak for the first time, I think of the worst day that I've had and think, could I still do this? On that worst day? My worst day was one time when Jeff was traveling , and all seven kids got the stomach flu at the same time,

which has only happened once. Oh, weren't - You sick too? - I don't rem probably because if I wasn't, I should have been . But there was just, it was one of those days. And so I think of that day when I said a streak, because I'm like, if I genuinely want to be consistent, if consistency is the thing that I'm looking for, then I need to take into account that there's gonna be some really bad days sometimes.

Mm-Hmm. . And look at it and say, how simple would it have to be to stay consistent on that day? The second law of streaking is to keep a record of it. And as we've gone through that, we've come to recognize that the record is important. Because when you're doing things consistently, you can forget that you've done them. And you're like, was that yesterday?

Or was that the day before? And then time can go by and you can think that you've done it, but maybe two or three weeks has passed and you're like, oh, I guess I haven't been doing that. Mm-Hmm. like I thought. And so that record is kind of your own, I call it like my journal of successes. It's, it's the place that I go to that says, I've been doing this every single day.

It's extremely effective for things that you want to do that are difficult to quantify, like I want to be a more kind person. It's a very difficult thing to quantify that. But when you can go back and say, I have done something to be kind for this many days in a row, you can look at it and say, I've been doing it for this long. I am becoming a more kind person. Hmm. The third rule was to create a community.

And this was something that we recognized as we were, as we were having success and looking at it. And we're thinking we're what has helped this? And as we've started to study different streaks, we recognize that winning streaks and all things that talked about streaking seem to be centered around some kind of community. People that had something in common that shared a passion for this thing.

And we recognize that we're like, that is a huge part of having a streak, is having a community of people around you. At first we thought it was to have accountability, and we thought, oh, you need to have accountability. And there is a small accountability component to the community. But what we've really come to recognize is that the accountability is really in law Number two, which is the record. The record is what really holds you accountable.

And the community really became that cheering section. Those that group of people that were like, wow, that's really cool that you've done that. Or, or in our case, have you done your streaks yet? Or just different? - Well, it's just a celebration. Yeah. It's celebr. I mean, - It's - Celebration. It's celebration. Yeah. - The things that you've done. So you asked the question, how does this relate to kind of a gospel setting? And, - And let me review those.

So the three laws of streaking are la make it laughably simple. And the second one again is keep a - Record. - Keep a record, and then create a - Community. Create a community. Okay. So we say laughably simple, no record, no streak. You've gotta have a record that you've kept that streak. And one little bit of confusion. Sometimes people felt like the streak was broken if they didn't record it that day. Sometimes I'll record it the next day.

As long as you did your streak, your streak is - Alive. If you did your streak and recorded it, you're good to go. It's, and even if it, even if you recorded it the next day. - The next day, yeah. And then create a community. So the thing that's been the most eye-opening for me as I've done streaking, and I kind of call it my streaking journey, because where I started, when we started streaking has evolved so much to how I view streaking now. And what it's done for me.

And I'm, I'm gonna use an example, it was a couple, I don't know how long ago I set this streak, but I set a ministering streak. And we have an app where you can keep track of your streaks called the streaking app. And you can make your streaks public or private. And I kept this streak private and I didn't tell anybody except Jeff. And now we're - Announcing it to everyone .

Yeah. I - Didn't, I told Jeff he was my community, but I, this was a kind of a personal streak because I didn't want, I felt that I was struggling in ministering and I didn't want other people, I didn't want somebody to be like to judge my ministering. And so what I set was, I thought, I just want to do something with ministering every day. And when I first said it, it was centered around the sisters that I was assigned to minister to.

And I would do small things like look up their birthdays or look up their child's name or their husband's name, or check. Sometimes if I was really tired and I hadn't done anything, it would just be, did they post something on Facebook today? Just something that I was doing every day. Then we had this time where we moved and I went through a small period of time that I didn't have assigned sisters. And I thought, well, how am I gonna keep this streak alive if I don't have assigned sisters?

And I thought, well, they don't have to be assigned to minister to people. I can, I can minister to people without having it be an assignment. And that was kind of my next step in, in my journey of ministering with my streak. And then recently, so this is years that I'm talking about this kind of, this journey. Well, you've - Had it alive for 2000, - 2,185 days. Nice. As recently, I've become a relief society president just like four months ago.

And now my ministering streak has been who I minister to. And then the thought process of, well, who else ministers to this person? Who else is in their life that could be part of that ministering component? And so as I look at this journey, it has helped me to really change the mindset around ministering. The reason I first set this streak was because I felt never felt like I was doing a good job in ministering.

I shouldn't say that. It wasn't never, but it had to be this certain standard like Mm-Hmm. , I took a meal to 'em, or I dropped off their birthday gift, or, or yet - An in-home visit with a - Lesson, right? Yes. I went and visited and had this lesson, or they called me and asked me to help with something and I was able to do it, which were all good things, but you have to be doing a lot sometimes to get to that place. A lot of other smaller things.

And as I've come to look at this through streaking and thinking about it every single day, it's changed my mindset from ministering isn't this grand thing that I do all the time. It is a journey and it's a journey of how I treat other people and how I'm changing inside. Am I a person who just thinks about people and can minister to them?

And through setting a streak, it's helped me be able to look at that every single day and really see areas where I'm actually ministering more than I thought I was. Yeah. And then also to see opportunities that if I wasn't thinking about it every day, I would've missed. Mm-Hmm. . And the beautiful thing about the streak with it being laughably simple, is that it doesn't have to be big. I can look at something simple that I did and think, oh, I did that today and that counts.

I was thinking about ministering today. Yeah. And so in terms of how streaking helps in a gospel scent, I sense, I feel like it gives me the opportunity to take these big concepts that we talk about, ministering, um, think celestial, um, just these, these concepts of how the kind of person that I want to become. And it turns it into the things that I'm doing on a daily basis to become that person.

And because I'm doing it on a daily basis, it helps me see it as a journey that every day is a step in that journey. And some of the days it's grand and beautiful and amazing and I can go to bed feeling happy. And other days it's like, well, it was a regular day and some days it was a bad day, but I still did this tiny thing towards who I want to become.

And so it gave me this latitude for the ups and downs, I guess of life to look at it and be like, it may be up and down all the time, but I've got this one thread through it all that has kept me focused on who I want to become. Yeah. - So take this worry off the table for the listening audience. 'cause I had a going in the book and you did a great job easing my concern as I read the book. But whenever behavior's talked about there is the risk of shame being a driving motivator.

And in my opinion, shame is the number one tool the adversary uses to alter our perceived identity. Amen. And so when there is ever like this effort on whether the habits or behaviors or actions, I worry of like, oh man, what I don't, are we just motivating through guilt and shame? So how, I mean, how do you respond to that? Yeah, - That's a great one. I'm gonna let Jamie go first because, and then I'll, and then I'll give some thoughts on it.

- And this is such a good question because I think I've spent so much of my life being motivated by guilt and , - The fellow latterday sin. Am I, - You believe it? - And I think that as I look at this, I think the thing that has been, and it's similar to what I've said, is it's just recognizing how much I do that counts. How many of the things that I'm doing, I'm already doing well with. And then it's also just giving some latitude, giving some grace.

The thing I guess I, I love about a streak is - I think you should tell about your journal because that was where you felt the most guilt. - I did feel the most guilt. - I Did you not wanna tell? Did you not wanna tell about that - One journal? No, I probably just forgot about that. Okay. So that was when it, well, - There, there were two because I let preface this just a little bit. So every year Jamie would come and say, I gotta write my journal more.

And she'd spend like three days writing a novel now, - And this is why I'm, I'm so excited we're releasing this in January. 'cause everybody goes through these feelings like this is the year, this is, the year isn't gonna be different. And then February hits - Alright. Exactly. So she would, and what she started to stack up were journals that were partially filled out. And what they became was guilt was especially symbol of guilt.

Yeah. A symbol of guilt. A symbol of - My, A symbol of my failure. - , all those empty white pages. - Yes. Yes. Exactly. - And all those restarted journals. That was the other hard thing is I had journal after journal after journal, because - That's the other thing. Get the new pens, you get the new book - That's gonna motivate, - Because that is the motivation. - And so that was a big thing is, and it actually took me a while to be okay setting a streak around it.

Because I remember saying to you, 'cause you got super excited and we're like, oh, this streaking thing is really working. What do you wanna set a streak around? And I'm like, I do not need another thing that makes me feel like a failure. Like I don't need another thing, another box. It's like, oh, you said you were gonna do it and you didn't. And so it took me a long time to be okay looking at setting another streak around something besides our running.

It took me quite a while and one of the first ones was the journal writing. 'cause I thought, what thing and what - Is your streak? What is your streak for - My streak? So what I decided is I thought I am just, 'cause I tried a couple times. I even went to a class years ago, A BYU education week class that was just said, oh, - You're getting really serious about it. - I know. I was like, five minutes a day. That's what it was. Just take five minutes a day to write in your journal.

And it didn't stick either. I couldn't get that to work either. So I thought it has to be so simple. It's gonna be one sentence. That's it. All I have to do to be successful writing in my journal is write one sentence. And it was amazing to me how when you release yourself from it having to be something so big, how much more often? I did write a lot more, like I didn't, but it wasn't, the focus on wasn't how much I wrote. Once I wrote that first sentence, I was successful.

I had been consistent, I had done it. And if I stopped at any point, it was totally okay. But often I would go on and continue on and, and it was amazing to me. But there were days, I have entries in my journal where the, the entry is this day was really stupid and or I'm really tired . Like, that's it, period. Done. I'm gonna bed. Hate journal. Exactly. Hate journal. Why did I start the streak? But the beautiful thing is that the simplicity of that allowed me to keep the streak alive.

Yeah. And there is something extremely powerful about when you keep those promises with that you've made to yourself. Yeah. When, when you say, I'm gonna do this, and you do it and you've given yourself a way to make it happen. Yeah. And so now I have dozens of journals. This is great. Okay. So I've been writing out sentence in my journal for 2,470 days, which is great. But what's even more awesome is that I have, I have journals. I have journals that I've finished. I tons - Of journals now.

Like serious, I mean, in a full way now it's a d different symbol way. It's different symbol. Exactly. Right. - It's totally different symbol. It's a symbol of my success. And I still sometimes have days that I don't write very much. Mm-Hmm. . But I have a lot of days that I write however I, however much I feel. Yeah. Sometimes it's several pages. Yeah. Yeah.

But for, and it's the weirdest thing that, because all I commit to is the one sentence, as soon as I do it, I'm free to stop or start as long as I to keep going or stop whenever I want. - Yeah. There is something inside of each of us. So you look at what King Benjamin says as far as the natural man as an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever unless he yields right to the promptings. And what I look at is what is yielding to the promptings?

Well, everything we learn is they're small, they're simple, they're quiet. All of those promptings are those tiny things that we decide to do. And those lead to the big grand things because I believe that's how you overcome the natural man. Hmm. So as a leader, so now if you, you, if I'm in the leader's shoes, right?

And I'm thinking back to when I served as bishop or, and thinking back to individuals with who I worked on any number of issues and what one, one thing that happens with guilt and is people focus on what they did wrong. And so the guilt comes in as, I am wrong. I am bad. Mm-Hmm. . And Satan plays on that. He plays on that because the natural man is at that and is at that point. And what happens then is Satan's like, well, you shouldn't even be a part of this because you're just, you're bad.

You're not wrong. And isn't it so much more fun with streaking? And this is where I look at it as a bishop, I would've loved to have this because what you're now doing is giving yourself a, not only a way to win, but you're focusing on the win, the positive, the win. Mm-Hmm. , you won today and you are gonna win. Yes. Or tomorrow. And you're gonna continue to win because you've given yourself away to win. You've given yourself permission to win. Mm-Hmm.

, there are so many people who I work with and talk with that are like, well that's really not gonna make any difference. That laughably small thing. In fact, we are at a young single adults, um, conference. And I had explained Laughably Simple and then I, - But we weren't calling it laughably Simple at the time, we were just calling - It That's right. We were just calling it Simple, simple. Make it simple.

And I had said, and so one of my streaks is to write at least one sentence daily for a book article or a letter. So I'd put that up, write at least one sentence, lady. And, - And you had just told the story about how you wanted to write a book. Yeah. That, - That was, and I hadn't written one. I was doing everything I could. I had set a goal, I tried to read it, you know, write a page. You've been through this recently, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

So I was, I put it up, I had it on the slide. It said, write at least one sentence daily. And there was a young single adult, she laughed out loud, just laughed. - And the whole point was, she was looking at that saying, you wanna write a book, but your streak of laugh of write one sentence a day is not gonna get you, it's - Not gonna get you there. It's ridiculous. Ridiculous. That can't ever, it's laughable. Ever. And that's why I thought that's exactly it.

The laughably simple. And why it is laughable if you do it only once. Mm-Hmm. of course. I mean, if you do it once Yeah. You're not gonna get anywhere with it. Yes. Send, - It's not a book. Right. - Right. Exactly. But if you do it for now six years, every single day. Mm-Hmm. you not only have a book, but you also have 300 letters that you've written. You also have 50 articles that you've submitted. All of those things come from, you know what, I can write at least one sentence.

And there are days where I write one sentence. Yeah. Just like the, and - And I love what you said though, that it changes that focus from the things that I didn't do, which was, well, I didn't get very much, I didn't get the full amount that I wanted to write today, or I didn't. Two, I did what I said, I wrote a sentence. Mm-Hmm. . And I think that there's a huge amount of power in that shift of focus from what I didn't do to what I did, did get done - Difference.

So, and speaking of individual that is, you know, in my office and striving diligently to repent, I'm gonna give you a whole bunch of things that you can be successful at. Right? Mm-Hmm. things that you are doing. And that success is what on what I want you to focus. And one of the things we have that we've, we've looked at this quite a bit too, is don't streaks don't work. Hmm. If you set a, for example, let's just use diet for a second.

People that say, I'm not going to eat sugar. I thought you - Were gonna say Diet coke, , - I'm not gonna drink - Diet Coke. Whoa. Whoa. Let's, I was gonna stop - That. Eat back off of that . But don't eat sugar. Right? Mm-Hmm. , what happens in the brain is you start thinking sugar, sugar, - Sugar, sugar, sugar. - And all you're doing is reinforcing. So now you go into something else, like, don't look at pornography. All you're saying to yourself is pornography, pornography, pornography. Mm-Hmm.

- . And I think a huge part is that shame, because then you miss, you mess up one time and all that shame comes back in. Yeah. Because you've been focusing on that anyway. And now it just validates, I knew I was a screw up. - You're focusing on the - Negatives. Right. You're focusing on the negative and then you mess up on something and it validates that. Yeah. - The surest way to be part of an accident, a car accident is to focus on it. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. That's the surest way in nascar.

That's what they talk about. You wanna be part of that accident, you just look right at it. Mm-Hmm. - You'll drive. Right. - That's the same thing with our lives and behavior and everything else. Yeah. You wanna be part of any type of sin or anything else, just start focusing on it. Right. And it'll get you there. Yeah.

- And that's what I really appreciate that, you know, as we talk about streaking, it's so powerful because, and my wife, she does this thing in our home where she says, we're doing a 10 minute pickup. Mm-Hmm. . And she literally sets a timer. It tells my kids 10, we call - It 10 minute tidy. Oh, - 10 minute ti I like that. Yeah. There you go. . But then it's like, then 45 minutes pass. I'm like, Hey, wait a minute. You said down tricked us. But there's something about the brain

that you just need to get started. You - Just need to get started. Exactly. - It's almost protecting you. Like that's a big mountain to climb. Don't even start on climb that mountain. Yes. 'cause you'll never get to the top. But if you just get started, you realize, oh, this ain't bad. You know, I can I do 10 more steps. I can do, I can, you know, - And it does two things. It gets you started. And I also believe it gives you an exit.

Yeah. Like you can look at something and say, oh, I got started and if I have to exit, that's okay. 'cause I still did what I said. And you know, it's okay because you did it yesterday and you're gonna do it again tomorrow. Yeah. - So there is something with brain science behind this as well. As you look at brain science, the, the brain is a great big energy conservation factory. It wants to conserve all energy.

And so whenever we set something that is large, the brain automatically has a rejection response. Mm. Because I'm gonna have to spend energy on that. And where streaks exist are in the frontal lobe because you're thinking about it and is intentional. And the frontal lobe is the thing that sucks the most energy. And so the brain is looking at it and saying, oh boy, I no, no, no, no. Don't, don't approach that.

Whereas when you say it's laughably simple, you actually overcome the rejection response. And your brain says, oh, well I could do that. And you use a little bit of ego in there as well. It's like, I can do that. Come on. Mm-Hmm. - I can do. At least - I can do at least that much. And in fact, that's one of the phrases that we use in streaking, is at least I'm going to write at least one sentence. Because then that really cues to you that you can do it.

- Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you do in like, you got the 2,700 days writing the journal and, and you - Miss something, something - Happens. I mean, how do you, obviously you gotta start over 'cause it's no longer a streak. Mm-Hmm. . But how do you not let that wave of guilt come in? 'cause I imagine there'd be like this phone call from you to Jeff being like, it happened , my streak is over. It's sort of like, it's suddenly this thing. Right. And so that can lead to a lot of shame and guilt.

What, what's your thoughts on that? - I feel like the shame and guilt happened a little bit more earlier on in the process. So when you've got streaks that you've had to start over a couple times, it can be hard. I think one of the hardest streaks I've had has been morning prayers. I have reset that streak so many times. And I actually started years ago with just say two prayers a day because I didn't wanna commit to having it have to be a morning prayer.

Mm-Hmm. . And I spent a couple years on just focusing on two prayers a day. And then I reached a point where I thought, no, I really do want it to be a prayer in the morning. Like I, that's really where I wanna go. And so I approached the streak knowing that I would need to start over. I just knew that it was gonna happen. That it's gonna take time to start over.

And then so those, when you're starting a streak, those first few months, it takes time to, as Jeff says, to build a consistency muscle. Mm-Hmm. to fe to remember to be consistent, to add something to your life consistently. It takes time for you to be like, oh, this is a part of my pattern now. And so those first few months is where I feel like I had to kind of work to overcome sometimes that shame and guilt.

And the beautiful thing about it is that oftentimes, if it's a long streak, I've had a couple really long streaks that I missed someti one time for, I don't even know why. Like, I woke up and I was like, I genuinely don't know what happened. Yeah. I don't know why I missed it. And we always say it's okay to take some time and mourn it. Like Mm-Hmm. Let yourself feel bad. Like you had a good thing going here and missed it and you're kind of sad about it. Mm-Hmm. Because you broke that streak.

And then you give yourself a few minutes to do that. But then you kind of look back and you say, wow, I accomplished all of this though I had this many days in a row that I was doing it. Whether I broke the streak or not, that is still with me. Like, that is still a part of who I am and what I've been able to accomplish and part of the journey of who I'm becoming. And that's not gonna go away. And then I look at it and think, and I liked that I was doing it. So I'm willing to start again.

I'm totally willing to start again because we have a, our poor daughter, she's in the book, but she has a, she has, and I say our poor daughter because her example in the book is a negative example. . - So it's the one she's like, this is what I'm known for. Yes. - But she talks about, um, setting a streak to read her scriptures. And she made it about 30 or 45 days. And then she lost the streak and she got discouraged. - She actually made it 85 days. Oh, - She made it 85 days.

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . So she was feeling good about that. And then something happened, she lost the streak. And so she didn't start again. She, she got discouraged and she's like, I'm not gonna do that - Again. Actually, you know, what are you talking about Lily's streak? Yeah. Actually what had happened, am I tell the story wrong? Yeah. 'cause what actually happened is she's like, this isn't really doing me any good. Hmm. I'm gonna stop like just going through the motions.

Yeah. I'm just going through the motions. This isn't doing me any good. And so she stopped and we asked her about three months later, how much have you read since then? Zero. Hmm. I mean, very minimal. I mean like nothing. And she said, and I realize now that to keep the streak of life, what then happens is you set up what we call the floor of success. Hmm. And sometimes you lay on the floor, sometimes you crawl on the floor, sometimes you stand on the floor.

Sometimes you, you jump, sometimes you jump from the floor, reach high heights up to high heights. But it's always the floor. And what I look at is, and she now has great streaks now and she's fantastic from that experience, what she learned was is I need to have just that floor of success. And I believe Satan's gonna be telling you that that small thing is not gonna make any difference in your life. Mm-Hmm. - . Okay. I have to tell you something. 'cause I've thought about this a ton.

So it was interesting when I had my journal recognizing that now I've kept a journal for a long time, but when I didn't write in my journal and I would feel guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And then I would write and I would write a ton. Like that day that I wrote a ton and I took a half hour, an hour and I just wrote it all the adrenaline that that, what did you call it? The, - The serotonin - S serotonin that I would get The dopamine. The dopamine hit. The dopamine, yeah.

That I would get for that day that I wrote was huge. Mm-Hmm. Like I felt so good. I finally alleviated that guilt. But then I often would go maybe write one or two days, but then it would fall off and I wouldn't write again for a long time. So then back time feeling guilty. Yes. Yeah. Like children born and I didn't write about it. , - We've been there - Yet. Yes. And so again, that guilt would build up.

And I started to notice, so I've had the journal streak for a long time and I was talking to Jeff about this the other day. I said, it's interesting to me that I am more consistent and have written in my journal more than I ever have in my whole life. However, because I don't have that purpose of guilt. And then alleviating that guilt and then not doing anything in the guilt. Build, build, build, build. Mm-Hmm. And then I do one thing and alleviate that guilt.

'cause I don't have that porus effect. Sometimes I will look at my journal writing and think, it just doesn't give me that same adrenaline rush. Mm-Hmm. It doesn't. And it's been an interesting thing to look at and think consistency is small drops over long periods of time. Yeah. And you don't get the same rush sometimes from a small drop that you get from dumping in a whole bucket. But if you look at watering a plant, a plant's not gonna survive if you just give it a bucket every two months.

Like it's gonna survive with the small drops. Yeah. So I have had to learn and recognize that the consistency has a different feel that I may not get that super awesome rush all the time, but I also don't have to live with the guilt. - I think though, and this is a great story too. And so here you have to share your family history story and the streak that you had with your grandfather. And you're hitting all the guilt trip. Oh my goodness.

There's another one. Yeah. - All of my history, all of my streaks center around things I felt guilty about, especially my longest streaks, which are writing in my journal, reading books to my kids. Family history was one that - Ministering, - Ministering all these, all these aspects. - What's interesting, just before you tell this story, what's interesting about these Kurt, is that each one of them, so for example, when it, she's a great example of those things.

So when she set a ministering streak, about a hundred days later I set one. And what is the streak? Do at least one ministering activity daily. Mm-Hmm. . So what does that mean? That means I can pray for the family, I can text 'em, I can look up their names in tools and see, you know, who they are, pray for 'em by name. All of those, the very just very doable things I can do every single day.

And it's been great. I feel I have been such a better minister than I ever was a home teacher because I'm thinking about it every day. And it's that simple thing. So family history. Right. I have a streak on that. You started it first. Mm-Hmm. . But it was do one family history activity every day. Well, with the app opening, it is a family history activity. Mm-Hmm. . I mean that's how simple it is. Right? - I think I spent months that part of my streak was just understanding how the app works.

- Yeah. Mm-Hmm. just opening it, looking at it, everything else. Especially. Yes. Yeah. That's just it. And so all of a sudden I'm doing this. Well the results of that, and then we'll get to her story. But the results of that, you know, when you look in family search underneath the contributions or family tree under contributions, there is a definite distinct difference from when I was Oh yeah. Doing the streak and when I wasn't. Yeah, there's some, I mean if you look at that, there's

- A graph. Yeah. - That's more than Novell curve. That's . So, and that was from just doing so in 2018, nothing. 2019, nothing. And then I started a streak and the contributions went off the charts. But it wasn't like a, I'm not family history - Expert. It wasn't like you were spending hours every Sunday working on your family history. No, you weren't. In fact, I don't dunno if I've ever seen you actually do that.

I would like to get to the point that someday we do , but right now, you, your streaks are very, it's very simple, - It's very attainable. And I do it every day. But the contributions are off the charts because it's the small simple things, which leads to the story that she has. Let's hear it about family history. You got it. Yeah. We've been building this one out - And I don't know how, how many, so I'm a - I think you're a couple hundred days into your

streak. Yes. When this happened, - And I'm a convert to the church, but my mom and I were both baptized on my eighth birthday. And so family history to me was always this thing that was, well it was Mormon. People had family history to me. - Your convert, you're adopted by your Yeah. Dad now. I mean, there all kinds of different, - It was a big elephant to tackle - And complex. There was all kinds of lines that crossed - All over. And I never knew where to start.

And I always felt like other people knew so much more about it than I did. And I really didn't know where to start. And so setting this streak, it was the same thing. It was to do one family history related activity every day. And I'd been doing it for, yeah, probably - It was about 200 days or - So. Yeah. Not quite a year yet. And we were up, we were actually on vacation and it was a Sunday. And I was looking at that, oh, I gotta do my streak.

And one of the things that had bothered me is that my biological grandparents, I had never been able to find my grandfather's name. Like I'd been able to find my grandma's name, but I had never been able to find my grandfather. And I had lost contact with them when we joined the church. And - Because this is your adoptive, or not your adoptive, my biological, this is your biological, and she'd been adopted into another family Mm-Hmm. Really didn't have contact - With, so I didn't have contact.

And so I had been working on it for a couple days. Each day I would just try and do a little bit of something towards finding his name. And this one Sunday I was sitting there and I found it came up on my app, the Find a Grave. And it had a picture of my grandma's gravestone there Oh wow.

That I had found that I, I was like, oh, I, I've seen this before, but this time I looked at it a little closer and realized that it had her name on it, but it didn't have, it had a couple, but it didn't have my grandfather's name there. But it had a space. And I, and it was the first time that I thought, could he still be alive? Like maybe he's alive. And that's, I, and so as I got to think about it, I'm like, well, maybe I, what do you do?

You look in the white pages, maybe . So I did - On the phone the white pages, - Right? Yeah. The white pages on the phone. Yeah. And so I, I looked in the white pages and I found his name. And it was in North Dakota where I, where I was born. And, and I thought, well, maybe I'll just call . But then it took another day or two to get the courage to call. - No, no. You called, did I call that day? You called right there. 'cause I was like, I, I was kind of prompter.

I'm like, you should call, you should call and see, see if he's actually alive. Yeah. Do it. Come on. Another - Important part of community. Yes. Yes. - Exactly. The celebration. So, - So I, I called and he answered, and I was, - And he - Answered, I was like, is this Marlo Gould? And he's like, yes, it's, and I said, this is Jamie, I'm your granddaughter. Do you remember me? And he was like, I do remember you. And we hadn't talked for probably 40 years.

I must have lost track, track, track when I was about 10. Yeah. And we ended up having this great conversation and I was able to ask his mother's name and get more information about his mom and when she was born and her birthdate and Do you have brothers? And just talked for a little bit. But it ended up being, it opened up a whole section on my family tree that I didn't even have access to. And it gave me the opportunity to reconnect with the grandfather that I had lost. And, - And it lost.

And it came from just do it every day. Yeah. That simple. Yeah. - Small and simple things. - Small and simple things. - And that's, and that's really where, if you look at the scriptural basis for streaking, it's in Alma 37 where Alma is turning the plates over to Heliman. Hmm. And what's interesting about that, that particular chapter, you think about the importance of what's happening. Alma is turning over the record of the Nephites to Heliman.

And he is telling him, look, I need you to write in these, I need you to keep this record. And I'm not sure what the exchange was there. I'd love to be there with the exchange. Yeah. Because Alma says something that kind of is interesting to me. He says, as he is turning it over, he says, now you may suppose this is foolishness in me. And you look at that and you go, why is he asking if this is foolish? And he's talking about keeping a record every day of the Nephi people.

And he's saying to heal him. And he's like, look, dad, we've got all kinds of things we need to run in this kingdom . We have got people that are, you know, over here in the wrong farmland and there's people over here that aren't where they need to be. You want me to write a sentence in this record every day? And he is like, you may suppose that this is foolishness of me, but by small and simple things are great things brought to pass.

And you think about the Book of Mormon today and the influence it has the billions of people, what it does for individuals in their lives. And it was all from keeping a record. And if you look at it, all three laws of streaking, keep a record every day. Make sure laughably - Simple. Think think of alumni where he's like, uh, my sentence is that he wrote this. He's my - Verse. That that was it wasn't it? I'm, I'm out. I saw him write it and in the day he wrote it, I was standing by him.

Mm-Hmm. , I'm out. Uhhuh, - , - Laughably simple. Keep the record and share it in a community. Yeah. Changes lives. - Yeah. I mean that's truly is the gospels that it Yeah. You know, we sometimes frame as being very simple, but, and I hear individuals who even who've lost their faith and, and leave the church because it was such an overwhelming, overwhelming experience.

And when I, when I see or hear somebody that's in this state of overwhelm because of the gospel, I'm like, all right, time out somewhere. You swallowed false doctrine. I don't know where or when, but if this experience isn't full of hope and encouragement and love and divine identity, like then somewhere you missed it. So I get it. You know, I get how somebody can feel overwhelmed. But if that's the case, like let's just step back. We really - Need to step, step - Back.

Yeah. Right. And I think, and you mentioning in the books as far as like, your streaks are your streaks. There's not like, oh, well, to be a good ladder. He saying, here's 40 streaks, you gotta do . So do those. And then Yeah. Maybe you can start to cook or something. You know, like, it's like you gotta start with your own, right? - Right. Yes. Well, so interestingly enough, so when we started this streaking journey, wrote the book, we start to meet people all around and talk about streaking.

It's usually the first thing that comes up. Well, there's a professor out of North Carolina who actually studied streaks and we got put together. And what he found in his study of streaks is that for a streak to really be yours, you have to determine what the time is and what the, when the streak actually counts. So it's really up to you as far as what the streak is, and no one else determines that for you.

Mm-Hmm. . Now, when we, you know, when people go into the app and they look at it, they can adopt other streaks because it helps to kind of have a starting point. But really, after that you determine when your end point is. For example, one of the things that Jamie talks about in, she has a, a streak for the we believe app, right? Mm-Hmm. to open it every day. Mm-Hmm. . Well, inside the We Believe app, they keep track of your

streak of how many times you've opened. Even - In the Gospel library app. - Yeah, exactly. Right. The Gospel library app. Well, interestingly enough, it resets at midnight in that app, and it resets at midnight in the Gospel library app. Oh, wow. So if you didn't do it by midnight, well, we have a lot of streakers that my day doesn't end till like two or 3:00 AM Mm-Hmm. And so what they determined is, my day is done at 3:00 AM not at some time on a clock.

Mm-Hmm. . Now, the reason I bring all that up is to go to your point in what you were saying in the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latterday Saints, and as members of the church, you determine your streak, how you do it, what it looks like. And if it's too much, if you're being weighed down by guilt, don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. - Yeah. And, and sometimes there may be a season, there's a season for some streaks, or you may do a 30 days, you're like, that served us purpose.

I'm moving on to something else. Right. You don't have to keep piling - 'em on. Okay. Now you've gotten into the next edition of the book where we want to talk about, there's actually three types of streaks. There's lifetime streaks, time of life streaks, and challenge streaks. Hmm. So lifetime streaks, I wanna read the scriptures for the rest of my life. Yeah. And I wanna do that every single day. And I'll - Restart this - Streak and wanna keep trying. I already restart many, many times.

- Need to, as many times I need to, because that's a lifetime streak, a time of life streak. For example, Jamie has a streak of reading to our boys. We have two children left at home, and she reads to 'em every single day. And this started quite a while ago, but she reads at least five sentences to him every day now. - But the youngest is 12. That streak is gonna, that'll - End, that'll end. And we'll retire that streak and we'll - Retire That streak - Served its purpose.

I'll you what? There is nothing like the feeling of retiring a streak. It is an amazing feeling because you look back on the journal of your success and you see that you're now retiring something that you have done every single day. And it's a moment of euphoria. Mm-Hmm. I mean, it's this moment where you're like, and emotional, emotional, just Mm-Hmm. It's neat to be a part of that and realize, you know what?

This has been an amazing part of my life that I now have, because I set this streak to do - It. I had a streak that I had a daughter that was on a mission and she was having a hard time. And I set a streak to just write to her every day. And it was only specifically for that time of season, which just to help her and me in that moment in time.

And as soon as she came home, I remember thinking, I'm like, well, should I pick another missionary and write to that missionary and so I can keep the streak alive? And distinctly, it was like, Nope. That wasn't the purpose. The purpose was for this daughter at this time. And you did it. And now else, - I remember too, too, when she came home, one of the neatest moments that happened in our home is she was in her bedroom. She was unpacking her suitcases.

And I heard her from the room and she said, Hey mom, dad, do you wanna see something? I'm like, yeah, please. She brought out her suitcase, she opened it up, and all of Jamie's letters were lined up in her suitcase, the daily letters. - Yeah. That's - Cool. And she basically said, these are what saved me on - My vision. That was a very specific streak, specifically for me and her at that time.

And even then, there were some that she'd pull out and I had just drawn a big heart and said, I love you. And stuck it in an envelope and mailed it, because that's what I had time to do that day. Yeah. But it was, you're right. The visual of seeing all of that. And it was an emotional moment for me because it was one of those times that I thought, I actually did what I committed to do. Like there's a visual picture of my success.

I really did that. Yeah. And it was very, that was a powerful, yeah. - Yeah. So a few things I wanna underscore here is, one, we talk about, you know, how to avoid the shame. Streaks don't cause shame. Satan causes shame. No matter if I go home today and speak to my son in a way that I'm not proud of, the adversaries is gonna constantly try and put shame in there. And that will be the case with streaks as well. So I think a part of that is just, just being aware of it.

Yeah. And not letting it overcome you and pray and restart. And here we go. Right? Yep. And then I wanted to talk like when, again, you touched on it earlier, that don't, streaks don't work. Right. Right. And so when we talk about sin or, and it breaks my heart, like the most le least effective way to approach sin, especially from the the bishop side of the desk, is to tell a youth or an an individual go 14 days without a relapse with porn or whatever.

And then you can take the sacrament like that will only perpetuate shame. Huge. And so let's not talk about, don't streaks or sins or things like that. Instead doing of like, well, what streaks could we set? Right. A scripture a day. Could you journal a day? I mean, there's again, so you're reiterating these positive do behaviors Yeah. That then will help them overcome sin. 'cause they're reinvesting in in the - Gospel.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, when you think about in our behavior, no matter what our life and our time is full of our behaviors, and I know that sounds simple and obvious, but I'm gonna use it as an illustration. If you think of your life as a cup of water that's filled to the brimm Mm-Hmm. . Okay. And inside of, of that cup, the water is always at the top no matter what. And it's mixed with all of our behaviors. It could be good behaviors, bad behaviors, whatever it is, sin is in there.

And everything else, if you try to scoop out whatever that water is, bad behavior is the bad behavior. Dirty - Water, - . And you can, and there's a couple of different scriptures you can read on this. But immediately this behavior is absolutely right back in. Yeah. And it could be worse behavior than what it was before. Right. So you don't scoop out and replace what it is. What you do is you displace Yeah. Bad behavior with good behavior.

And with streaks, what you're doing is you're displacing less valuable things in your life with more valuable things. There is some point where you find sin valuable to you. You're like, this is valuable because you keep doing it. And what you realize is through time is that it doesn't provide you the value that you thought it would. It's a actually a cheap imitation of the real value. So what you're doing is setting a streak to put in really good behavior.

Because if your water is always at the top, guess what happens when you start putting in the good behavior naturally. Yeah. You displace any of the behavior that's less valuable. Right. It goes outta your cup. That is the key here. - That's what we're trying to do. - That is what we're trying to do. That's how we become like Christ is we put in the good Mm-Hmm. . And that's what he wants for all of us, is to put in the good. And if we do that a drop at a time, that is what he's asked.

He's like, just do that simple thing. Yeah. - Yeah. And we were gonna ask, yeah, - Sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah. - It's a lot. Like you said, it's a focus issue more, I just was reading President Nelson's quote about joy, that it's not based on our circumstances, it's based on where our focus is. And as you were talking, I was thinking about that.

I'm like, displacement is really placing our focus in a very specific place so that we displace the things that are taking our time, that we don't want to be there, or the things that we're struggling with that we don't want to be a part of our lives. We displace them by focusing on the good things, the things that we want.

I also wanted to say, you brought up something so interesting when you said, you know, Bishop, this says, well, if you do this for 14 days, this idea of putting a time limit on things is an interesting, an interesting thing. 'cause that's, we talk a lot about habits in society. We talk about habits and this idea that if you do something for a certain period of time, it will become a habit. And I think Or automatic. Or automatic.

And I think the biggest frustration I have with that is that this idea that by doing something long enough, it will be automatic and you won't have to be intentional about it anymore. I think is a real fallacy when it comes to the good things we want in our life. I think no matter what, throughout our life, there will always be things that are striving to take our focus away. And we will always have to be being intentional.

So I look at my streaks and I, I still keep track of the ones that are over 2000 days. I don't look at it and think, oh, I'll just write in my journal. It's a habit because I know that it's not a habit. It's easier to do because I've done it more often. But I still have to have a level of intentionality behind it.

And I think as we communicate, especially the example you're talking about with communicating to youth, I think it's so important with youth that we communicate that there are things that you may have to be intentional about your whole life. You may have to be intentional about. And that's okay not watching pornography your whole life. Right. Like, that's part of our life.

And you can do that rather than thinking, well, if you work really hard and you focus really hard for a certain period of time, that will go away and you won't have to worry about it anymore. Yeah. It's not true. 'cause then when it doesn't go away, we look at ourselves and think there's something wrong with us. Right. Right. Yeah. And there's not, there's nothing wrong with you. It's human nature to have to be intentional.

So if we communicate, look, you're gonna need to be intentional your whole life, and that's okay. Yeah. We all have to be intentional our whole lives. And there'll be times and seasons that maybe it comes easier and times and seasons that you're like, wow, I'm really having to work on this. But by communicating that we're saying it's possible. And that when you focus on the savior and you use the atonement, those things do become easier and more plausible.

But it's still always gonna be a process. It always is gonna be intentional. Yeah. It's not gonna be automatic no matter how much effort, concerted effort you put into it for a period of time. Yeah. - I think we've heard several stories of the, the infamous overcome prayer. Like, God, just tell me overcome. Mm-Hmm. Take this desire away from me. Heal me. Like, but that's not, mortality isn't about it all going away.

It's about learning to rely on God that, that soon Jesus just feels that glass completely. Right. And then the more we can just land, that's exactly it. - Right? Yes. Yeah. And if, and that is, and you displace all of the natural tendencies, all - Things, you no longer even have a desire. Exactly. Right. And wow, - There's a scripture on that. - Yeah. I, I dunno where that came from. Just came, uh, so yeah. I that I think that's just really good to, to hit.

And then I appreciate in the book that this isn't about, you know, it's not about habits. This isn't a book about creating habits. And I think they've debunked the research that 21 days of an action, I think it's all been - Actually know where that came from. We know where that came from. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. So it came back from years ago from a person who did plastic surgery. , I know this is where it came from.

This is it . And what he recognized where that research come from is he recognized that when people had had plastic surgery on their faces, it took them 21 days to be comfortable with their new look. Like for 21 days. It was like, oh, is that me? Oh, is that - Me? But then they - Were comfortable, but after 21 days, then they were, - And he said it had nothing - To it wasn like with behavior, like peer reviewed research. He - Was just, it was just like this.

Well, he doesn't know how it came, came to this idea. Like, I dunno how it got to behavior. It wasn't, it had nothing to do with behavior. Behavior other than I just got used to my face. - Yeah. Because again, that falls in that fallacy. If I think, well, I need to create a habit, and then I don't have to think about it. Exactly. Then I've overcome it. Which - Is very enticing.

The idea that you could do something really good for a certain period of time, and then it'll be there forever and you won't have to work at it anymore. Yeah. Is extremely enticing and pretty much all the time, not true. Right. - A lie. Yeah. . So in this, I appreciate that you, in your book, it's not about doing something or creating a habit, it's about becoming something. Mm-Hmm. You talk a lot about identity, which is at the core of our theology.

I mean, the reason we go to the temple is all about identity, to be endowed with an identity. Right? Yes. And so, as we're streaking, the big picture isn't about doing something for a long time. It's about becoming something and setting that intention upfront. Right. That's - So good. You know, when we started the streaks, at first we were, you know, the physical spiritual streaks were like, we feel we should be doing these things. Right? - Yeah. What things should we be doing? It really wasn't.

- It was the should be. And then there was a friend that challenged us and said, that seems a little shallow. That seems like it's not right. And we got to thinking about it and, and we thought, you know what? He's right. I'm doing these things to become someone. And we have the greatest mandate in the world, which is Christ. What manner of men ought you to be? Mm-Hmm. , even as I am well, to be like Christ, then I need to be doing the things like Christ.

And so we set up, then what we realized is I need to identify who I want to be. I mean, yes. Like Christ is one of those. And what are the subtopics, right? What are the subtopics I'm gonna set up that will help me to be like Christ? And once I see who I want to be, now I'm going to set streaks to become that type of a person. Jamie mentioned kind earlier, one of the things that I've found in my life is, and a little confession time here, . - Nobody's listening. - I, yeah.

Just, I don't like everyone. Right. When I see them. . . Oh, interesting. - I know. I hope I've won you over. You You did. - Very quickly. And there's some people I have an allergic reaction to. I'm just like, I don't even like you at all. Right. . And I thought, was Christ ever like that? Did he ever come across someone and be like, yeah. Hmm. Don't really like you. No. No. . He wasn't.

And I was thinking, I was like, well, I want to be someone who loves people who when I meet them, I'm like, I'm really glad to be in your presence. I enjoy you. I want to be knowing about you and what you do. And so I started to, in the scriptures, I read where Moroni, or it's actually Mormon, that says, pray with all energy of heart that you may have charity. Right. The pure love of Christ. And I thought, what does that look like?

What does it look like to pray with all energy of heart to have this? Because I figured if I had charity and if I was imbued with this gift of charity, well that would be great because I wouldn't have this allergic reaction anymore. Or maybe it'd go down a lot. . So I thought, you know what I'm gonna do? I'll set a streak to pray at least one time every day for charity.

So I started to do that. And one of the things that I found is that it was working a little bit, but then I realized I don't really understand what this charity is. You know what I think I need to pray. Not that other people will change, that they'll have charity, that they'll be someone I like, but more so I need to pray that I will see them as Christ sees them. And there were a few people in my life at that point in time who I'd had altercations with.

It was really difficult, you know, a couple at work and so forth. And I thought, I need to pray that I will love them like Christ and use their name in my prayer. Now you talk about all energy of heart for someone that's offended you, or that has, you know, done you wrong, to actually pray that you can love them like the savior and use their name. All of a sudden, that's when my heart started to change

and I started to see people differently. I - Dunno if it was all of a sudden it was, well, - I it was over time. Yeah, you're right. It was over time. I shouldn't say all of a sudden. 'cause it was, I mean, it's a, it's a streak that I continue today. And, and that is, you know, I'm like, so what then is the all energy of heart? And what is it when President Nelson says, the Lord loves effort, I thought, you know what it is? It's every day. It's just the every day, every day is the effort.

Mm-Hmm. , the all energy of heart is every day. That's where it really comes from. Yeah. - It's powerful. Uh, so maybe Jamie, let's go to you. You recently, four months ago called us Release Site President. What principles apply, like leading an organization with these? 'cause again, we don't wanna prescribe or be like, I'm the really site president. Here's our 10 streaks that we're gonna do in early studies. So, I mean, does it come up or how do you use these principles

as the leader of an organization? First - Of all, I love what you said that it, it doesn't work to be like, oh, these are the streaks because then I'm setting streaks for other people. I think the thing that works the best is, or how streaking has helped me most is in my own personal life. Mm-Hmm. being able to set streaks myself around my calling.

So the fact that I had a ministering streak for a couple years before I was called to be a relief society president, really helped me to feel like, okay, I may not be a perfect minister, but I've been thinking about it like I've been doing that. So it helped a lot in that regard. And then the thing that I think has been the biggest impact for me with streaking is that originally when I started streaking was to alleviate the guilt for these things that I wasn't doing.

Mm-Hmm. , I wasn't reading to my children consistently. But I knew the power of reading to your children. I wasn't writing in my journal consistently, but I knew that that was something that I wanted to have. So I set these streaks to do these things that I was feeling guilty about. As I've continued to streak, I really have had a change in how I feel about streaking. That the things that you do are still important. We're, we're not going to get places if we're not doing anything.

But it's helped me to recognize that streaking has changed my mindset. That streaking is a journey that I am every day striving to change myself a little bit to become more a creature of Christ. So it's helped me in relief society to be more patient as a leader, to look at it and say everyone is in their place.

It's helped me immensely that if people ask, I do have a suggestion of what they could do, I can say, look, if you're having trouble with your scripture study, maybe don't look at it so big. Try something small. Just do a verse or just open the book. Like just every day. Handle the Book of Mormon. That's all. Don't expect more of yourself right now. And for me to genuinely believe that that's okay, that I'm not abdicating my responsibility.

'cause I'm not telling them they should be doing the entire come follow me lesson. Every week has been helpful to, as a leader, to say, we're, wherever you are, let's take where you are and go a little bit better. It's helped me when I was the young woman's president and they changed the theme. I didn't know the theme. So I set a streak to recite the theme every day to myself. I'm not the young woman's president anymore.

And I thought about letting go of that streak, but I actually, we've talked so much about identity, I thought that theme still communicates who I am. Yeah. Whether I'm 12 or 50 mm-Hmm. , it's still an identity theme. So I often will include the reciting of the young women's theme as part of my prayer that each morning, I'll just say that theme to remind myself who I am. That I am a disciple of Christ.

That I, so I think the biggest thing how I would use streaking as a leader is not so much let's do all of, let's have these streaks that we're all doing the same streak, but of giving a methodology of how to actualize the things that you need to have happen in your life. So if you wanna get to the temple, what do you need to do to get to the temple? Let's set a small thing that you could do every day that's just getting you thinking about the temple.

Mm-Hmm. . What if that's all you're just thinking about it and recognizing the power that comes by focusing on something small, being able to win at that small thing every day. You literally are changing your focus. And without necessarily saying, I have to change my focus. I gotta change my focus. It was interesting as I, I gave a lesson on joy and one of the quotes from Elder Christofferson was that, let's see if I can remember it. He said, obviously joy isn't something you can force.

It's either there or it's not. And I thought that was such a fascinating quote because at first it wasn't obvious to me. . Yeah. But it was an interesting thing to look at that joy is centered on the savior and it is a byproduct of keeping the commandments. So you can't force yourself to be joyful, but you can look at what commandments can I keep, where can I put my focus? And streaking gives me a daily methodology to say, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm gonna do.

To have that focus and a way to say I'm actually doing it. I can look back at my record and say, I've been doing this every day. So whether or not I necessarily feel like I'm changing, because sometimes we can't see it in ourselves. I can look at that record and say, oh, no matter what, I've been doing this for 30 days, it's gonna make a difference. - Yeah. So as, as I look at leaders and leadership, look at whether it be in the family, in the church, you do not set streaks for other people.

Other people set their own streaks. So if I am a, a leader in any organization, what I'm doing is looking back and saying, okay, this is my calling. What do I need to do consistently every day in order to magnify this calling? Mm-Hmm. , and I see this with Jamie as well. Is she, she looks at it and says, and I actually have a streak to do at least one activity for my calling every day.

Well, as a leader, be it bishop, stake president, elders quo President, Sunday School president, relief Society president, young women's president. It's like, okay, what are the one or two things I need to do every day that will magnify this calling? And that then will bring about the leadership that you can use. Yeah. To lead others. For example, you may set a streak to say, I'm gonna pray for at least one person in my organization every day.

- I have a streak to review a name every day so that I'm reviewing the names of my sisters. You have a streak to read the handbook, a section of the handbook every day, or - It's actually just do one activity for my calling. And that's one of the things I'll do is read the handbook for that. Yeah. - Or preach my gospel or just, - Or any of those things. And so it really is about leading yourself and sitting back.

'cause when you get that call, you know when you sit down and you're like, okay, I've just been called as an elders president. What are the things I need to do consistently? And then when you're doing that, you've set up a foundation so that other, you can help others. - Yeah. That's really powerful. Really helpful. I mean, and I would encourage, I mean there's so much we could just explore and talk about.

'cause there's these little nuances, like you talk about that time streaks aren't the best thing. No. And we've talked in the context of daily, but you can do weekly streaks, monthly streaks, you can - Do weekly, monthly. So just quickly on time streaks. Time streaks puts your focus in the wrong place. - And this is like, I'm gonna read the scriptures for 30 minutes a day. Yeah. Not a good idea. - People think that that's easy. Or even - Five minutes. Like what's the big - Deal?

Yeah. Even one minute. It's not easy. But when you put it on the actual activity, I'm gonna read one verse. Now it becomes simple. Whereas before you start to focus on the clock, and that's not where you want your focus to be. Yeah. You want your focus to be on the scripture itself. Right. - Yeah. . Yeah. That's really helpful. And there's a bunch of other nuances people pick up there. So obviously people can check out the book.

Again, it's streaking the simple practice of conscious, consistent actions that create life changing results. Yep. You also have an app. Yep. - The streaking - App. And you just, you can either pick from others ideas or put your rose in there. Make public. Yeah. You're not in, I think I'm obligated as the leading, I'm gonna have to be public on several of those. And even follow my streaks. So - You got it. Exactly. Um, I'm excited. Yeah. The, the app.

So the book and the app, the together, it gives you the basis and the methodology by which you can start to implement streaks in your life. Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. And yeah, four hour audiobook, so it's quick listen as well. Yep. If you need, and any other resource or place you'd send them, if people really wanna jump into streaking, - If they wanna listen to, we have the streaking podcast gives. Oh, okay. Cool. Which gives help and everything else. And if you wanna listen to that, Jamie

and I publish that about once a week. Awesome. Yeah. - That's great. Well, these people love podcasts, so there - You go. So there you go. - , any other principle concept you wanna make sure we squeeze in here before we wrap up? Or you - Do a good job? I, I guess what I would say is in the end, just know that when you start streaking and you do streaks, that it really is your determination of what behaviors you wanna do and how you do that to become like Christ.

I mean, that, that is the end all, be all of it. No one else's streaks. We could look at it this way. No one else's oil is gonna get you to where you need to be. Yeah. It's the oil you put in your own lamp, and that is what a streak is. It's what you want to do. Make it laughably simple, keep a record of it and celebrate with your community. Love - It. And, and I would say especially this time of year at the new year, to not , look at streaking as a way to revamp your whole life. To start small,

- We gonna start with 20 streaks. Yeah, - Exactly. - That's, that's that you, - That is almost as, uh, it's bad. Yeah. Start with one or two. - Odds are very high that if you do that, you're gonna fail. Yeah. Yeah. Um, start with one or two and, and for me it, like I said, it was things that were bothering me the most and I thought, okay, how am I gonna, what I wanna start with those things and then just give yourself time to understand.

Streaking is in my mind very personal and a journey because you're striving to become who you are supposed to be, not who someone else thinks you should be. Yeah. But who you're supposed to be. And it's a very, it's almost an exercise in self-exploration because sometimes you look at it and you think, okay, why did I break that streak? And I've had streaks that I set because other people set them and I thought they were cool and I should be doing that too.

And as I got doing it, I realized I hated it. It's just like, it's like this is not a streak for me. And I realized because it wasn't a part of who I wanted to be, it was a part of someone else that I thought was cool. And so streaking gives you that journey to explore and decide who am I gonna be and who does the Lord want me to be? And then what am I gonna do to become that? Yeah. - So just a one final note here.

Jamie talked about in the beginning about her ministering streak and she didn't share that for a long time. I had, we were teaching streaking, I was teaching streaking at a conference and someone asked me, what if I don't wanna share? Do I have to create a community? What if I don't wanna share the streak?

And I said, actually, you don't have to, you can start it personally yourself, but I'm gonna tell you what's gonna happen in about 60 days when you've had success at something that you've never had success at before. You'll share it with someone because you wanna celebrate with them. Yeah. And that's why so Jamie, to share her ministering on your podcast today, Uhhuh, it's because their's success. Yeah. And when you have that success, you wanna share it.

It's the celebration of this win that you didn't ever think you could do. So you may start it with, oh this is so laughable. People will laugh at me. - And I don't wanna tell people it, it's - Embarrassing. Don't how simple it's, yeah. But then once you build up your consecutive muscle, that's a good point. You'll share it. That's cool. - Alright, well I want to, we'll step out of the context of streaking for a minute. And I just wanna reflect on your experience of being a leader.

Okay. And I'll ask you first Jeff, and then Jamie. Uh, but as you reflect on your time Jeff, as being a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? - As I look at my life in any leadership position I've been in, when I was called to serve as bishop, one of the commitments that I made to myself is that I was not gonna put on a bishop face. I was gonna be Jeff Downs. And I was going to enter in as Jeff Downs and be Jeff Downs, who was called to be a bishop.

Through that experience, I learned how Christ personally, I involves himself in the lives of people who want him to be involved. People who would come into my office, people who would come when I was serving as bishop and confess what I will say, some of their most sacred things. Because sin is really kept in a very sacred spot. No one likes to confess it. Mm-Hmm. .

And so it gets protected. But when they would confess it and I would feel the love of the Savior that really came out in those moments, all of a sudden I felt like, you know what? I see the Savior's love for this person. I can be a better follower of Jesus Christ. I can feel that love for them. I can do those things that will, because he empowers me to be able to do that. And so, you know, leadership in the Lord's Kingdom is a tremendous blessing. I mean something that, it's priceless, honestly.

I can't really put words to it. So yeah. - Jamie, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? - I think that I have learned a lot from things I've done well and I've learned even more from things that I haven't done well times that I feel like, oh, I could have handled that so much better.

I think the thing that has helped me the most in terms of the leadership was when I was able to step outside of the leadership role, of the responsibility of worrying about how I looked, what other people thought of me as a leader and was able to let go of that. And sometimes that was through hard experiences of things that I looked at and recognized that I said things or did things because I was more worried about being a good leader than I was about the person that I was actually talking to.

And as I've been able to have opportunities to do it better, where the Lord lets you have another opportunity, you're like, okay, I've had this experience before. I'm gonna do it differently this time and learn from it. I do feel like I've had the opportunity to recognize, as you said, the love of the Savior, how much he genuinely loves each individual person, like everybody.

And it's changed my perspective to even on social media or as I'm watching a show, to look at it and think those people are real people and the Lord knows them and loves them individually no matter what. And being able to step back and have that has helped me to want to be more like that to, because to feel that love makes you want to be able to give that love more.

And so I would just echo exactly what you said, that feeling the love of the Savior through leadership opportunities that sometimes have been humbling, has helped me to be able to want to be more like Christ. - Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting the Leading Saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider, and you picked this one.

If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, we would sure like to hear about it at leading saints.org/contact. And if you could quickly text or email this episode to a leader, you know, I bet it will bless their life. You can mark off your good term daily and let's even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you. And help us share this content.

Remember to watch the interview about scrupulosity, go to leading saints.org/fourteen for free access to the Mentally Healthy Saints virtual library. - It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the Declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness.

The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.