- - How's your teaching calling going? Have you ever asked a question during the second hour and suddenly everyone is looking at the carpet in silence? There are proven methods to stimulate class discussion that work like a charm. David Farmsworth does a masterful job presenting on this very subject in the Teaching Saints Virtual Library. What questions? Get people talking. How can you effectively listen to the answer they're saying without being distracted of where you want to take the class?
Next? These are crucial principles to consider, especially in this time of Come Follow Me Sunday School. You can watch David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leading saints.org/fourteen. There you can gain free access for 14 days to the Teaching Saints Virtual Library, where you'll find hours and hours of content to help you be a better prepared Sunday teacher. Hey, welcome to the Leading Saints Podcast.
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Head there. After you listen to this episode a few weeks ago, we welcomed in Kevin Jones from the Teaching Restored Podcast, a new podcast that's, uh, getting rave reviews, and we're brought in the co-host to that podcast. Julie Hilliard. Did I, did I say her name right? Hilliard? You said it - Right? Yeah. This is not a hard name. It's a good, it's not, - It's easy. I make it hard. I do that with a lot of things in life, so, uh, well, welcome, uh, .
I'm so glad you're here. So - I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. - Now you're on the podcast scene with Kevin. And how's it going so far? - So far so good. You know what surprised me is how passionate I've become. I kind of started doing it because Kevin asked me to do it, and I was jazzed about the topic, but oh my gosh, the thing, the things that I'm learning as I'm trying to prep for it.
Oh yeah. And as I'm thinking about it in the back of my mind, it's become something that's actually feeding my soul. I, I love doing it. That's cool. - So give us the premise of somebody hasn't heard of it yet or didn't listen to the, to Kevin's episode. What's the premise of, of the podcast? - Well, the idea is that we feel like there's a lot out there about teaching, like principles of the gospel specifically, you know, since we've started, come Follow Me.
There are podcast galore about the material and the content, but there aren't a lot of podcasts out there or even information out there that's fun, um, about teaching and how to teach and how to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ specifically. And so that's what it's about. And we're trying to explore different facets of teaching that are interesting to us. That us we've struggled with ourselves, that we find other people struggling with. And it's been like, it's been fascinating.
I've learned a lot and I've also learned that there are a lot of things that I'm not great at, which is not my favorite revelation. Yeah. About doing it. - Nice. But it's fun. Have you had a, a series of teaching callings in the church or, or professionally? Is this something you've done? - Oh, that's, it's been a lot of fun for me. I actually, as a little girl, I thought I always wanted to be a teacher and then I was really bad at it.
Like I started to get callings and stuff and I'm like, Ooh, I'm not so good at this. And then as I got a little bit older, it was something I really wanted to do. And I remember when I was, I think I was a junior or senior in college, I applied for an internship to teach classes to the male inmates at the Utah State Prison. And I was jazzed about it. And I'm telling you, if you want people to shoot you straight, go teach at the prison.
And here I am this, you know, naive girl from their perspective, coming to them from a religious college, they knew that was my background and they, I thought were gonna eat me alive And Uhuh, I Wow. Had to put on big girl pants and like, we made it happen. And it was amazing. And I learned a ton from it. And then I started working for Dr. Stephen Covey and talk about having a tutorial, you know, firsthand Yeah.
And how to teach. I was traveling with him full time, so I would actually help him prep for his presentations and help him, you know, kind of prepare his briefings and get, you know, consult with a client before we would go. And so I learned a lot about what goes into preparing to teach and how to better connect with people when you are teaching. And he would give me opportunities periodically to teach.
And then he, um, I was invited to teach at UVU U for a little bit and taught the seven habits there. And I'm like, this is actually so much fun. And it's like, I don't still dunno if I'm any good at it, but it was amazing. And then my favorite calling that I've ever had, that I have right now is teaching the adult religion class for our stake. I don't know if every stake does that, but if they don't, they should Uhhuh .
And what it is, is a gathering of people who really want to dig into the gospel and have real conversations. It's not fluffy about how to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ in our lives and how to better understand the scriptures. And it's been magic. It's been such a cool thing and it's helped me. I also, you know, have another teaching calling right now with the seniors. And I'm not as good at teaching the youth, but it stretches me.
It's awesome. And so, yes, I guess you could say I have, but I've just, I've grown into being better at it. Yeah. I hope. - Yeah. Well I, okay, you gave me like five different directions that, that we can go. We'll take one at a time here. First you worked for Stephen Covey, like the legend in, in the world of leadership. So I mean, how did that job come to be? And then I, and then how long did it last and what were your general, uh, duties there?
- Do you wanna know? It's kind of an embarrassing story. The real story that, how it came to be. I was working for Franklin Covey in marketing and I had a specific initiative that involved him. And I would fly out to where he was and he would present at these executive luncheons. So we'd gather a bunch of, you know, the Fortune 500 execs in the area and he'd do a lunch presentation. Well, I broke my foot because I fell out of an outhouse.
And so I showed up for one of these with this broken foot, and he's like, what'd you do in front of everybody? And I'm like, let's talk about it later. And he's like, no, what'd you do? So it makes me share in front of everybody 'cause I couldn't come up with a lie. Well, not that I would lie, but it couldn't come up with a better story. And so he said to me, he's like, why don't you like kind of fly with me?
And at the time, you know, we were needing to fly in a private jet to get from place to place as quickly as we could. So you spend time together. And I got to know him. And when I went to like, strategize for the next year, they offered me the job of traveling with him. And it, I felt so unqualified. I felt, I mean, I was unqualified. I think he really hired me just because of my personality honestly.
Yeah. And so, I don't know if I should admit that, but I grew into the job and my job was to help him prepare for his presentations. And he was developing the content for the eighth habit at that point. And the eighth habit is find your voice and inspire others to find theirs. And I swear to you that man did that for me. That's literally what he did for me. He inspired me to find my voice.
And my personal mission statement has stemmed from my work with him and it's fueled everything that I've done since. And I feel like I worked for him and traveled with him full time for about five years. And then I got married and he called my husband Todd, the enemy 'cause he took me away. And when I started, or when I got married, we had this last hurrah I remember going up through Africa and down through the Middle East and we ended in Sri Lanka.
And then I flew over and met my husband for our honeymoon in the Maldives. Like we did this whole thing. And it was just this like last, I don't even know how to describe it to you. It just was this incredible trip. And it honestly has propelled me into some leadership and communications consulting work. It's motivated me to wanna teach, to wanna, my, my personal, personal mission statement is one word and it's the word inspire.
And it's not that I wanna be an inspiration, it's his definition of it was to breathe into. And so I really try so hard in the work that I do to help other people see in themselves, you know, a little bit of what Heavenly Father sees in them. And you know, it's harder to do as a parent in your family work sometimes with your kids. But it really has been something that's driven me in my life ever since then. - Wow. Yeah, I mean, he's such a, obviously I've read a lot of his work, uh, so good.
So inspiring. But a lot of things, especially members of the church need to understand that he wrote a lot of church books as well. I'm thinking Oh yeah. Like the, the Divine Center. Divine - Divine Center is - Like life changing. And the totally six events, man, that six events book, I, I just, uh, released a book, uh, this year. And I've, I quoted from that book over and over and over again. 'cause it is so powerful how he frames the gospel. Uh, he was remarkable.
- One of the things that he did. So he was working on the six events as well when I was working for him. And it was interesting because he would go to these cities, you know, wherever we were, and he would want to do what he called family programs he would want to give of his time in the evening and just have people come and talk about families. And then when he was working on this, he would also do programs at the, at churches, um, to teach the six events.
And I remember sitting there not having read the book yet and having him go through it. And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't even get this. Like, it wasn't clicking for me. It just, and as I was able to dive into that a little deeper, and I'm kind of a person that needs things on repeat sometimes to really understand them. Sure. That is a powerful, insightful, beautiful book about the restoration of the gospel. Jesus Christ. And it's, it's phenomenal. So I love - That.
Oh, that's, that's great. I, you all leaders must read it. It's just so, so powerful. Um, I love that. Well, well, that is so cool. Now, all right, the next, uh, direction I wanted to go is, um, so this adult religion class. So like people hear that like, well, I mean, yeah, Julia, that's called gospel doctrine, right? Like isn't that what, what we do? Like what, so what do you mean by this adult religion class? - So it's, I I guess it must be unique, right?
I don't even know if it's unique or not. Yes, it's - Unique. I'm here to tell you it's - Unique. It okay. It's unique. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. Um, it's on Tuesdays, so it's middle of the week and it literally is just kind of this option that our stake offers to help people deepen their testimony of Jesus Christ. So like that's kind of the point, right?
And it's been interesting because when I was called to this calling, I was called to team teach with someone and I started attending and I'm like, holy cow. Like we're getting into it. Not saying we're going like into deep doctrine by any means, but we're like taking a verse and really trying to come to understand it better and studying history and context in a different way than I had ever experienced in my life.
And so, starting to teach this class taught me how to study and how to really kind of appreciate the scriptures and learn how to make connections that I'd never made before in my life. And we went through it the very beginning when I started doing this, we actually used institute curriculum. And so, um, the cornerstone curriculum for institute classes was what the focus was at the time. And I loved that too. So we were studying, you know, the pro family proclamation.
We were studying Jesus the Christ, or not Jesus Christ, excuse me, the living Christ. Um, we studied, you know, doctrines in the Book of Mormon, not the Book of Mormon by itself, but actually pulling out doctrines in the Book of Mormon. And so I went through a whole cycle of doing that. And then when Come Follow Me came out, we started following that schedule per the instruction from our stake.
And so it really was like an institute class for adults because, you know, that hasn't typically been available. Maybe Ysa have access to an institute class, or if you're taking pathways, you would seek out an institute class. That's become a more recent thing as well. And so it's, it's almost like institute for people that range from 18 to 87. I mean, you can come, if you're in your nineties, you can come, if you're in your nineties, you're not maybe restricted.
Yeah. If you want. Nice. If you want. So it's pretty rad. - So the, the this started by the stake, like calling you in and extending you this call to being the adult religion teacher, - Is that Well, there was somebody before me, and I don't know how long it had existed, to be honest. And so I think it must have been birthed by our stake. Okay. - So you weren't the first teacher. - I was not the first teacher, no. But, but you're the current teacher.
But I been, I'm the current teacher and I've been doing it for like, don't tell anyone how long it's been, like seven or eight years. - Oh, so you don't want to give this up ? No, - I don't. I love it so much. It's the best. But I'm afraid people know and like, just let us fly under the radar because it's honestly like you cannot imagine a better setting.
I mean, it's like you sit in this space with people who want the gospel in their lives, and we have new converts that are sharing their insights. We have, you know, converts of five years. We have people who have been members their whole life. So the perspective that people bring and the culture that we've worked to create has created this, like somebody called it like therapy, like church therapy or something.
I can't even remember what the term she used was, where you literally come and it's like you sit around and have group therapy as it relates to the gospel. It's pretty, pretty magical. Wow. - And you meet at the stake center? Yeah, - That's what we've been doing. Yeah. During covid I did it online and so we were able to keep it going during Covid. And since then I actually simulcast it still because we've had people that started to join us from different states and even different countries.
Mm-Hmm. . So they, we've continued to keep the broadcast going just so that they can continue to join if they want. And then people who are home bound for any reason are sick, can still join us via simulcast. Like it's kind of a, I guess it is unique, right? I guess. Yeah. It's not normal. - Yeah. So it's a Tuesday night. Tuesday morning. Oh, Tuesday morning. Okay. So these are people who, I mean, if you have a job then you're not going right. - Or you take a lunch break.
I've got people actually, I've got really, you know, some people who come and do it as their lunch break. And so - What time of day is it? - It's like 10. - Okay. So, - You - Know, and is about an hour or how long do you do it? - 90 minutes. - Oh, 90 minutes. Okay. - And it should, it should be longer. We wish it was longer. Everybody talks about it. We wish it could be two hours. - Nice. And so you're the teacher and it's a, I mean, but there's discussion going on.
I mean, you're not just lecturing for 90 minutes. I mean, you'd use all the principles that you, you, uh, preach, right? Yes. To, to make a great experience. And it happens every Tuesday. Yeah. - Well, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I do feel like our understanding of teaching in the church has evolved also over time. Yeah. And how there's really been instruction to be more of a facilitator.
And so even in the way that you prepare, you're preparing less of a lecture and you're preparing more opportunities for discussion. And so that really is how I try and frame this. And interestingly, that can sometimes get a little bit out of control. 'cause you know, the discussion can get lively, it can get derailed if you're not careful. It's a much more vulnerable way to teach when you're inviting as much discussion as we do.
Yeah. And it also has the opportunity to create something really special. I guess I'm saying that only because of the fact that I've learned that you actually can do too much discussion and you can have too much dialogue so you don't actually get through some of the meat. And so I'm kind of learning a little bit, and this is a, a learning curve for me too, how to balance instruction because people come 'cause they want to be fed, but they also want to engage and participate.
And so you wanna make sure that both of those needs are met, which can be a little bit tough, honestly. Mm-Hmm, . - So this is, so, and you're following the come Follow Me curriculum for these Tuesday things. And then on Sunday, obviously you do the typical, you know, every other week Sunday school lesson in, in each ward. Right. And, uh, so does this, do you sometimes worry that this is gonna steal the thunder of that Sunday class? Or, or, or just a compliment or supplement of it?
- Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I'm going be honest. This is my opinion only let's do it. We don't have enough time in Sunday school. We don't get into it. So true. Like we true have to pick one thing. I wish this could be a Sunday class, but it's just not the option.
So what I have felt is my responsibility in this calling, like my whatever you, my stewardship, if you'll is not necessarily to teach everything that we're gonna cover, but rather to help set people up to have better conversations at home and to help set people up if they are a teacher to go and teach the following Sunday. And so, you know, like some of the teachers in our ward gospel doctrine, teachers in our ward historically have said, Hey, can you share your notes with me?
I'm coming to your class because I have to teach. And so I'll do quite a bit of that where it's intended not to do anything but set people up for further study. And so hopefully what people walk away with is, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought of that. Oh what, you know, did we discuss this? I wanna go and search more. I wanna understand that more. Or Oh, this is what I wanna dig into with my family and now they've got some of the resources to be able to do that. Hmm. Does that - Make sense?
And that is so true. Yeah. And you say that it just rings true. And not that I haven't thought about it. Like, 'cause in Sunday school it does have this feeling of like, there's just not enough time and we're going over like 10 chapters this week or whatever it is. And I've also thought, well, you know, we can't go back to three hour church 'cause we just came from three Hour church. And so there's this sort of, this tension there of like, well what do we do?
You know? And, and it puts the teacher in a tough spot. But this is it. Like, I love this idea. And, and for some old timers it probably feels like we're going backwards. 'cause I think way back when Sunday school or like a Bible study was often done during the week. Um, but this is it Julie, like you, I'm, I'm calling, I'm calling the priest's department right. When we're done here and uh, gonna say, I've got it guys.
We've figured it out - Because - I, because I really feel like it's like the elders release I thing, it needs to be a weekly experience. It feels awkward every other week. Like you just can't connect and you're not getting into it. And again, there's not enough time, uh, right there either. So let's move Sunday school to the week, make it Wednesday school and uh, Tuesday school . And uh, well it - Doesn't but supplement it. Like it's a supplementary thing.
It's not like a require, you know what's so cool about it? So I teach the seniors on Sunday. So I'm in that boat of every other week and I've done like all this prep for this 'cause it's Tuesday and I'm talking on Tuesday about come follow me for that week. So I'm ahead by a week all the time. Right. Uhhuh . And so I go to the, to teach these seniors and I'm like, how am I gonna do this? And they're seniors too. Like it's a different group. Right.
And I've really learned something about, um, finding simplicity on the far side of complexity, if you will. Yeah. That you really as a teacher have to do the prep work to kind of dig through the weeds to figure out, and so the spirit can talk to you as well. Right. And to figure out what it is that you should focus on in your class.
And then you kind of dial it down like it's gotta be so clear to you, not because you looked at it from the near side of complexity and you're like, oh, look at this, this talk about this principle. Good gonna do it. It's on the top of, you know, it's on the tip of my tongue. I can talk about this easily. No, it's because you've waded through the curriculum, you've waded through your own study to arrive at something really beautiful and simple on the far side of complexity.
And I think that that's kind of what I've learned. And so those Sunday school experiences can be so incredibly rich because of the fact that that's what hopefully the teacher's doing is really trying to distill everything that we've already been talking about in our families into, okay, here are some of the things that, you know, the spirits communicated with me, we ought to really tackle. Here are some of the things that I feel could bring the most authentic discussion.
And then we should be really kind of, because we're all prepared, there's not really an excuse for not being prepared for Sunday school if you've had, you know, if, I mean whatever there are excuses, I'm not trying to be rude , but like we all can to some degree be prepared for Sunday school because it's what we've already studied. Yeah. And then man, those discussions can be so rich if facilitated in the right way, - Way. Yeah. Yeah. So you also teach a, a, a youth class, like
that's your Sunday calling, is that right? That's my - Sunday calling. Yep. Or my every other Sunday calling. - Right. Yeah. Your every other. Right. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. So we'll, we'll come back and announce some things, but while we're, we're here like the, the teaching youth dynamic, like you, I think you said either before we hit recorder or during that you've, you've struggled teaching youth. I mean, it's a completely different world. Right? Totally. So what have you learned?
What are some, what are some best practices you could bring to the table about teaching youth? - Because I'm not that good at it. Maybe I'm not the pers best person to offer best practices. So like, let me tell you that I say this from a space of total humility. I had this, so I, um, get asked to speak, you know, fairly regularly. And I'll go and do like a women's conference and I'll be like, yeah, amazing. And I can get deep and get heady and then hearty and it's great .
And then I'll get asked to like go to a youth fireside or something and I'm like, Ugh. Oh crud. And I remember one time getting ready and prepping for this youth fireside and I'm like, oh, it's so organized. It's gonna be crystal clear. I've tried to make it fun. And then I got there, I bombed, I bombed so badly and I walked away from that. And I was so sad. And I kind of, after a little bit, like a bruised ego, I kind of got past that.
I started to kind of learn from what I botched, if that makes sense. And one of the things that I've learned is that you have to be real with the youth. There is no space for fluff. And so if you're going in there and gonna talk, you know, like use cliches and you're going to, you know, kind of try and create, manipulate them to have a certain emotion, you are gonna blow it. Yeah. Like really what you have to bring is your real self stripped down with your real experiences.
You cannot put on pretenses. And if you come real with the youth and you talk real, and you're direct and you're clear that you're not afraid of that, you're not afraid to have real conversations, man, things go so much better. And so I've learned that before I even share with my group, they gotta get talking to me. Mm-Hmm. like, tell me what's going on in your week.
Tell me they wanna connect on kind of a more casual level, a more relaxed level before they're willing to take and put a little piece of their heart into the conversation. And so I feel like with youth, you have to build trust in a slightly different way and you just, part of what it is, how you do that is just to be so real with them. - Yeah. And then I, I appreciate this concept of, and I call it the priming of the pump principle of a teaching of Right.
You have to just start talking about something very superficial almost. Right. Even, and this works with adult classes as well. Totally. If you, if you're in that place where you're like, man, the adults aren't, I ask a question and everybody just blinks at me, um, you know, that means you haven't primed the pump and help them feel safe in that environment. Right. And so with youth it's like triple important of just saying that you're hearing, you're hearing them,
their experiences and, and they'll begin to warm up. Right. - Totally. That's one of the things you talked about when you came onto our podcast. And I Okay. You even gave some specific examples and I was like, and we'll be taking notes and trying that out. Good, good. Because I do think that you like this priming of the pump concept. Mm-Hmm. in adult classes you totally need it, but like you cannot skip it when you're teaching the youth, in my opinion. True. Yeah. Yeah, - Yeah.
So, and when you say like get real with them, I think sort of a buzzword these days of people may not be able to conceptualize that. Like what is that, what's an example of how you got real with the youth when you're teaching them? - So I feel this, so this is kind of a principle and this is something that I have kind of connected with, if you will recently, um, Brene Brown talks about like, her definition of connection is to help people feel, feel seen, heard and valued.
Mm-Hmm. . And part of when I talk about getting real part of what I have to bring is some vulnerability in order for me to get vulnerability back. And with this idea of being seen, heard and valued, a large part of that is not from what you say, it's from how you listen to them.
And so when I talk about getting real, part of what I'm talking about is like being willing to be vulnerable and share, but also being willing to kind of engage in their vulnerabilities and whatever they wanna talk about, to actually go there to actually talk about it. But not just to let them say their piece and then be like, oh, I don't wanna go there, I wanna move on. But really learn to empathize and show them how important what they have to contribute is.
Even if it's not the answer you were looking for, even if it's actually sometimes a little bit off base but pertains to their reality. Go there, go where they go, hang out in their space with them and then you could walk beside them on the journey to get to maybe a new way of thinking, a new, you know, kind of some new insights. But you have to meet them where they are. And you can only do that by being a little bit vulnerable and inviting. The same kind of, I guess, authenticity from them.
And, and I just believe so strongly that those connections are what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about. Period. And so just because you have a calling as a teacher and you might be standing in front of a group, it does not mean that you have in any way the excuse to disconnect the opposite. Like, you should be doing everything you can to help every individual in that class to feel seen, heard and valued.
Yeah. And in order to do that, you have to value what it is that they're bringing to the discussion, even if it doesn't make the point you wanted to make. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of hard to do. - Yeah. That's powerful. Anything else, uh, that comes to mind? Best practices with with youth? Uh, I know we're just sort of touching on moving on, but, uh, anything else - You wanna share? Um, I'll tell you one, one thing is don't try and do too much.
Oh yeah. Like, I think I always go with like this, we're gonna talk about this, we're gonna talk about this. Um, and don't try and do too much. Actually here's one other I, I found, and you talked about this as well, you've talked about this, the idea of breaking them into groups. I don't think people like group discussion oftentimes 'cause they'll just go off on tangents.
But I tried something just the other week and I was like, no, this was key where I gave them the responsibility for scriptures in pairs. And I remember breaking them off into these little groups knowing I was gonna come back and ask them what they took out of it. You know, what stood out to you, what did you feel like was the main point. And I had a subject that I was kind of saying, okay, this is what we're looking for in these scriptures. And people who hadn't talked before started sharing.
And I think when you read something, knowing that you're gonna be called on and you're not one of five people in a group, you're one of two, chances are 50 50, you're gonna have to talk . And so sometimes when you do this big group, then they have a spokesperson and so you can hide in the corner or sometimes the group just gets a little distracted.
This idea with the youth of kind of just break off into these little groups and somehow give them, I guess this, uh, they're gonna be accountable for sharing something type of an assignment. Mm-Hmm. And that, that's actually been helpful too. I know that's a little bit more kind of rubber meets the road and less conceptual, but it's something that I'm finding works to get them talking and specifically the kids that oftentimes would just kind of sit in the background. Yeah. Does that make sense?
- Yeah, that's really helpful. I like that. Um, alright, well let's talk, and this goes to, uh, this was on your, I had you send me a few principles or thoughts that, uh, maybe we could explore and this relates to a video or a podcast episode. You're on YouTube as well, so people can actually see the video of your podcast. Like people can see ours.
Um, when, when your, when your problem is too much discussion because I feel like we're, we're still trying sort of wrestling with this as a community where, um, we've been sort of discouraged from the lecture format. Um, and, but uh, some people just default to it still just because it's, it's a lot easier. I can just prepare my lesson, I'm gonna tell you some cool things. And if you have a very, uh, you know, very engaging teacher, that can actually be kind of interesting.
You know, when I go to education week, a lot of the time it's a lecture, but the teacher's generally engaging. And so I don't mind that. Right. But then on the other end of the scale, you can go way too far where you're just all over the map. You're sort of still in the, the block of scripture. Maybe you're studying, but you know, it, you lose a lot of control that way as a teacher and maybe people don't feel like they've learned anything or that the teacher has taught anything coming out.
So where can we begin with this balance of, of, of discussion or too much discussion? - I think that is such a good question. And like you said, we did a, you know, a podcast about that recently. And it's a work in progress for me. It's something I'm still wrestling with a little bit.
So forgive me if my thoughts are a little bit all over the place, but I have aired on the side of more discussion and I got some feedback from people that were in this adult religion class that maybe it wasn't moving at the pace it used to move or they're like, I liked it better when you were, you know, sharing more and stuff. And I'm like, it's not about me. It's not about what I share. And I kind of wrestled with this 'cause I'm like, oh, they think I'm a good teacher.
They think I have something to say. That's kind of nice to hear. Yeah. And then I was like, no, that's not what it's about. And so I thought, how do you do that? And there were certain people, there are certain people that have these just amazing insights and I'm like, man, we gotta, we gotta have that. So I've kind of been thinking about this and there are a couple things that I have tried and feel have gone well. And then a couple things that are still gelling.
One of the things that I tried is to bring up this idea of kind of a learner council is actually something that somebody talked about on one of your podcasts. Oh, okay. Thanks. A while ago, I can't even remember what it was, but this idea of a learner council, which is, we have teacher councils, right? But we don't often counsel together about how to be better learners. And I don't even know if I'm getting it right, but the term stuck with me if that makes sense.
And so I, at the beginning of class said, okay, this is, and I, I said, I'm getting some feedback that I'm kind of wrestling with and I was super honest about it and I shared the feedback with them and I said, you know, what is our goal as learners in here? And we read some scriptures about, you know, being edified together and things like that and talked about what it means to edify. And we kind of concluded that part of it is kind of building together, building upon what each other's saying.
And so I said, you know, how could we, what are some obstacles? What are some ways that, you know, things that get in the way of that? And we talked about, you know, people sharing comments that are too long, people sharing comments that you know, might be a little bit off track. And I said, I don't know what you're gonna share. And so when I call on you, I need you to be the filter and suggested that, you know, before you raise your hand, a couple things to think about.
Have I said too much, too many things? You know, have I commented too many times? Um, consider the length of your comment. Consider whether or not it's building. I'm not suggesting that every comment has to be anticipate where I'm gonna take the lesson and then go with that. I'm not trying to manipulate the discussion, but rather just consider whether or not it's gonna be building on the point that we've just made or if you're kind of taking us in a totally different direction.
Hmm. And it's been interesting and I also said, and by, you know, my job is to kind of facilitate but also to control a little bit. That sound that's the wrong word, but I don't know a different word, . No, we get it. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, so I said I'm gonna actually not call on you if you've commented a lot. And sometimes I'm gonna say I'm only gonna take two comments for this so that we can keep it going.
And all of that has helped a lot because what we found is it was like a runaway freight train. And because I want people to feel, feel seen, heard and valued, I was taking every comment every time. Yeah. And I found that actually people would raise their hands and interrupt a thought that I had with their hand. And I'm like, that's almost like saying, hey, in the middle of it, when I see your hand go up 'cause I'm so tuned into you. So I will tell people, hold on, you know, and that's okay.
I can say wait and I will not call on every single person. And I said, you can't be offended. You just have to know that I want to hear from as many people as possible. And so I'm not being a meanie, I'm just trying to really make sure that this is a super inclusive discussion. Yeah. And so having that learner council and not kind of hurting people's feelings because they didn't know why I wasn't calling on them anymore or you know, why did I only take two comments?
There were like 15 hands or whatever the case may be. I made it explicit and that helped me to feel less guilty about it as well. And I'm noticing people are really thoughtful now as they make comments and I reiterate this, I did, I reiterated for like four weeks in a row and they will now take their hand down and they'll be like, Nope, somebody else said something similar.
Let's keep moving. And they're all engaged in trying to get as much out of the discussion as we can instead of like feeling the need to be heard as part of what we're doing. Where I think sometimes we do have that, like we just have this like need to talk and oh, I wanna whatever. And we don't think before we make a comment. And part of being an engaged learner is really saying, okay, is this going to contribute and help keep the discussion moving forward?
And, and so I am finding myself sitting in classes sometimes filtering my comments a little bit better as well and taking accountability for that versus just, oh, of course they want discussion, I'm gonna contribute anything that pops into my brain. Yeah. So does that sound a little bit harsh almost? - No, I I there's so much here. I want to go into that.
So is this something like, because you almost lay some ground rules like, hey, this is how the class is gonna go as the teacher facilitator person here that's at the front of the room. Uh, here's some ground rules of how we're going to do the comment thing. Right? Yeah. Um, and, and or some things to keep in mind. So is this something you say at the beginning of every class? 'cause I mean, what if you have new, new participants in the room or - Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question.
I don't know. 'cause okay, I just started doing it recently. Like I didn't even really recognize that it was a problem. . Yeah. And then I started getting feedback and I'm like, I gotta pivot. And then I pivoted. So this is like probably about six weeks ago. And I did it for about three or four weeks. I started the class by just, hey, one more thought. Remember how we talked about da da da da. One more thought in this learner, learner council kind of a thing.
Or hey, remember we're trying to make sure that we're all, you know, moving the conversation forward with our comments. And I just kind of give little reminders because you're right, you're gonna have new people. And then I just kind of, I think here's something interesting and you can tell me if this is right or not. You have way more experience than I do .
But I have found that you, in a class like this, you, there's a culture that kind of starts to develop and that culture sustained everybody making every single comment they wanted. And like I said, somebody even called it almost like group therapy at one point. And I took that as the greatest comment ever. Somebody said to me once, I almost can't help myself from sharing like my heart. And I was like, you could never have said something better to me because that's what I want.
I want people to bring their real hard heart stuff. And so that was amazing. And then I started to look at this group therapy comment and I thought, is it too much of that? And then I started getting the feedback. And so like I said, this is still kind of new. And so I, I did this in response to a culture and I think that the new culture we're, we're creating as people come into it, you almost kind of vibe with whatever that is. Like you can sense it right? When yeah.
The culture is not to talk and everybody just sits there and it's crickets. I went to, like, I visited my sister the other day and we were in Arizona and I went to Sunday school and I was so excited 'cause it was the Isaiah chapters and I had been studying the heck out of Isaiah and I nerded out big time . And so I was so excited for this lesson 'cause I hadn't taught mine. I was like, oh, he's gonna share so much.
It's gonna be amazing. And this teacher was great, but like, I went to make a comment and nobody else was commenting. So I'm like, okay, I like a comment. And I made this comment and it kind of fell flat. And I'm like, I don't think people comment in this class. Yeah, - No, I've seen that. - Yeah. I, yeah. I was like, wow. It kind of was a little bit awkward. And then you feel awkward commenting. Now some of that has to do with the teacher and how the teacher responds.
A lot of it has to do with how the teacher asks questions and how the teacher responds. And I'm not gonna pick anybody apart. But there, the way that that was facilitated didn't really sustain lots and lots of, you know, people wanting to comment. But this idea that, you know, there's a culture that you kind of feel and you get a vibe. I do think that ongoing we've created something better that new people will kind of come and gel with. I don't think you have to say it every single week.
That's my personal opinion. Yeah. I don't know. Could - Be wrong. Yeah. That's interesting. And, and I, but I think I appreciate this makes me think of, uh, like you said, you're sort of in the beginning stage of this. You don't necessarily make it every time, but at, at the same time, it may be something to consider. I, uh, wonderful book I highly recommend. It's called The Art of Gathering, how We Meet and Why It Matters. It's by an author Priya Parker.
Have you ever read this book? Or, - I've not read it, but I've heard of - It. Okay. Yeah. And she talks about these dynamics of like, when you gather people, you have to like create the container, right? And you have to like shut the door of the container and, and set rules of, of the gathering. And no matter what, how, how informal the gathering, these are important principles to put in place.
So I like this that you are, you're putting some boundaries up or you're explaining the rules of this, of this culture that they're stepping into. Which people, it's not like they don't want rules or they just want it to be, you know, loosey goosey and anybody to make a, a comment. Uh, I think people appreciate that and they're like, okay, now I know how to play the game here 'cause you've explained the rules to me and I can be a better participant. And so I, I love that concept.
And then you, you know, you mentioned the comments as far as addressing the length. Uh, what else did you say? The, uh, - Um, whether or not it's like moving the point forward Yeah, - Exactly. Stuff like that. Yeah. I, I've sat in Sunday school classes and sort of thought through this, um, maybe I should be listening, but I, I go down a wormhole in my mind. Uh, my a DD kicks in.
But I just think about like, when you think about a comment in Sunday school, like what's the purpose of this comment? 'cause I think a lot of people, I would say is this is a mis um, a misinterpretation of what a comment is, is sometimes we feel like, oh, what what Julie wants me to do is like, I've studied this in a different way and I know a little bit more about this. So she wants me to teach for like two minutes. So I'm gonna raise my hand and now I'm teaching for two minutes.
I'm sort of like, maybe a slight flex of like, Hey, you know, I actually got my graduate degree, yada yada, and I've, they've been, I've actually visited Israel and I've been outside this. Now let me tell you about how the, the, the cultural dynamics at that time. Right. And, um, and sometimes those are interesting. Sure. But I often think like, is that, are we trying to just pass the teaching stick around and say, okay, now you teach for a minute.
Now you teach. I would say the, the number one purpose of a comment is to witness of the transformational power of the savior Jesus Christ in your life as it pertains to these doctrines that maybe we're discussing. Right? Um, and, and that's when, and I haven't figured this out or written the, you know, the five purposes of a comment or anything, but I think it, it would do well for people to step back and be like, okay, why are we commenting? Like, what, what are we accomplishing here?
Because if you wanna learn, why don't we just have Julie lecture? She's studied all week. Yeah, let's do that. Right? And so I love this that you're like stepping outta the context of the class and and saying, okay, before we get into the lesson, let's like, what are we doing here? And, and why, and what do you want? What do I want? And now that we come to consensus, we can really create a powerful experience. - Okay. So I'm flushing this out in my brain.
I'm flushing it out on the spot is not always, you know, - That's what we do here leading saints, if you haven't noticed. But - I like it. I like it a lot. Okay. All right. But so you, what you said, I've never thought about it as kind of this witnessing like this experience witness, right? Uhhuh, uhhuh, . So if we were to dial, like, just kind of go into that just a little bit more, I started thinking a little bit about the most powerful comments that people make in my class.
Hmm. And they're almost always tied to something that they've experienced, right? Like making, taking this abstract principle of the gospel that we're talking about and just making it real, right? And talking about how they wrestled with it or how they applied it. Like when they're being so honest about it wasn't just this, and then my grief was gone because dah, dah, dah. But actually, like, I had to wrestle in my prayers for months.
Like, and that power, the power of that type of a witness, people feel more connected to you. They feel less alone in their own struggles versus if you're like, you, you got it flexing at the beginning. They're like, I can't really, I've never been to Israel. I don't really know. Yeah. You're
disconnecting from people. Yes. - Yes. - And so when you talk about, you know, the pur purpose of gathering this, this, you know, the, the rules of engagement for gathering and you kind of have to shut the door and blah, blah, blah. I'm, I'm botching it and how I'm rephrasing what you just said, but that part of what you're doing is trying to create a safe space. And part of the reason that you have rules of engagement is because it creates psychological safety.
And you as a teacher, your job is to model what it's like to create psychological safety for everybody that's in there. That it is safe to bring your hard here because we are all healing together through the savior like that. He, and so those comments that are witnessing don't always have to be a testimony that I figured this out. That I've, you know, I had this experience and it all got better.
Sometimes it's just a witness that I'm trying to figure this out in my own life and this is what I'm doing. And then people can help each other in, Hey, this is what I tried and this is, you know, this didn't work as well for me. I don't learn in that way. I don't feel like the spirit communicates with me in that way. And then you all are more connected because you're all working together to figure out, okay, how does the gospel fit for me Yeah.
In my life. But it doesn't mean you figured it out yet. And so when you call it a witness, sometimes it feels like it has to be figured out or you have to have a success story or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think part of it is it's raw and you witness of effort in parts. Yes. - Yeah. And I, when I say witness, like you witness like someone's soul in that moment, you know? Yeah. As much as you can. And I, and I appreciate how you frame it.
If a comment can connect people or it can disconnect people, I always joke that every Sunday, so glass, I swear in, in, in the, in the world has the guy who like knows Hebrew or like his studied Hebrew. And he is like, wow, you know, this term in Hebrew is . And, and that, and the definition is that I'm, and I'm like, like again, I appreciate whatever study went into knowing Hebrew and reading the Hebrew translation or whatever.
But at the same time, I also think, alright, that guy's living life on a whole different level. And I would have nothing to say to him at the ward party, however, , when, when there's another guy and he is like, raise his hand and be like, uh, so I went through 10 years of deep addiction to substance abuse or pornography or whatever, and this and that. And this principle really helped me. I'm like, holy, like I wanna know your story, man. Like tell me more. Yes.
I know you don't have time for it here. So it connects us. Right? And then when I see him in the hall, totally, I can't help but hug hug the guy or, or when I am at the award party and be like, all right, tell me more. Like, tell me your background. Like what happened. Right. And I think that's, that's the, you know, as we're just shooting from the hip here, talking, having this discussion, I I'm, I'm leaning into that principle of like, it's that connection point of that comment.
Yeah. I don't need you to teach me something. Like, I need you because I can go to YouTube for that. I can go to the PhDs or read the book. Like, but I need, I want your soul to witness to my soul. 'cause that has a connecting, uh, power, you know? - Oh, beautifully said. I love that example too. Your soul. Connecting to my soul. Witnessing to my soul. Right. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. - Alright. We did it. We figured it out. - . Alright, good job. Good job. Be alright.
Where were we? But I mean, that is hard to create. So in like as every, anybody who listens to this is like, that's not my experience in Sunday school. Yeah. Okay. Probably not, but guess what? That's what we're striving for. - Exactly. Exactly. Right. Exactly. So where else is, before we wrap up here, like where else I wanna make sure we go in a direction of a point or principle you brought up that, that you definitely wanted to speak to. So, so where do you want to go next?
What, what principle stands out? - The only thing that's sticking out in my brain that we could dive into just a little bit more is how to create that type of connection. And like, one of the things that I feel really strongly about is that as a teacher, you can shut people down like faster than anything. And what a negative experience like - In a negative way. Right. That - Could be in a negative way. Yeah. - I guess it can't be of a positive way of shutting someone down, but no, uh, - Yeah.
no, in, in a very sincere way. There's something to be said about how, um, tenuous it can be sometimes as a teacher, when people are bringing something authentic to that space, you have the ability to hurt people by how you respond. And so I think one of the things that has really, um, I guess is near and dear to my heart is that we need to be so cautious when we are in the position of being a teacher, or even when we are in a class of acknowledging each other's comments.
So you have a teacher that stands up, you know, and will say something like, uh, you know, oh, thank you for that comment. That that is not that death, not an acknowledgement make. Yes. Yes. I think it's so important for us to say, this is what I got out of what you just said. What you said was so important that I'm like flushing it over my brain. This is what I heard you say.
And by articulating it back to them, they have the opportunity to like correct you and say, well, that's not quite what I meant. I actually, and maybe you can build something even cooler in that discussion. Mm-Hmm. . Or they have the opportunity to say Yes, that's what I meant. And then other people are like, Ooh, that resonates with me. Every single person deserves that kind of attention. Every single comment that is made deserves your total attention. You should not look at your cell phone.
If you're gonna look at your lesson notes. Mm-Hmm. tell 'em, oh, I'm looking for a quote in my, like, make out loud, out of your mouth. Tell them why my eyeballs are not locked with your eyeballs right now. Yeah. People need to feel safe sharing. And one of the things that I think that happens the most, and the reason that sometimes you get that culture of not speaking is because the teacher hasn't made it feel like, no, I value what you have to say.
Mm-Hmm. . I want to hear what you have to say. And I think that's really important. Yeah. - There you go. Soapbox Thomas. This is, this is great because, uh, there can be so many nerves when you're teaching, right? And you're thinking, Mm-Hmm. , I don't, you know, a dead silence is like, torturous. So I gotta make sure that whenever this person's done, happen, fill it. Like I'm ready to go. So what am I talking about next? And okay, good. They're still yapping.
I don't know what they're yapping about, but I hope it's good. And oh, lot of people seem to be engaged. Okay. Let's see. We read that verse and we're going this verse, right? And, and that is such a trap because, and I, and I've made comments I think we all have, where the teacher does say like, well, thank you for your comment. And I'm like, I don't, I mean, I feel heard, but I don't feel understood. Right. Uh, and you know, exactly, uh, Stephen Covey, I'm Seek first to understand.
Right, right. Um, - Don't prepare your reply. - Exactly. And for, uh, individual to fill. And I, and it's, it's all in these, and this takes some practice, and maybe it's the fact I've done 800 plus episodes of where I'm required to interview somebody and listen. Like, and if I don't listen to you, like, I mean, we just had a beautiful discussion there that we had no plans of going down that route, but I'd learned so much I was at fight you or Edified Hope, and here we are.
Right. And so that's the power of it. But it takes, it takes some practice. It's almost a skillset of, you know, I, I, one thing I do is I'll, I'll move away from my material or, or the lectern or podium that I'm at, and I'll move towards them. I'll be about five, 10 feet away looking at them. And then I love your, how you say that following up. So like, like I'll let you say, wow, I just let it sit there. Like, so what you're telling me is, and summary, and then be like, well, not exactly.
You have a mini conversation that everybody's witnessing there. And then you say, what does everybody else think? What does this bring to mind for, for others? Right. And then again, you're, you're creating defining experience. But I get that some people are like, I'm so nervous. I'm just lucky that I got my outline and I can read it. You know, so, but again, these are skill sets that every teacher is hopefully practicing and developing - Well, and it is a skill.
Like, I mean, I go and actually teach this in, you know, the business, in a business setting teach the skill of how to listen because it's like, in art, it's a skill that not very many people are at. And some of it, some of what you think is intuitive is not actually empathic. Yeah. And so we botch it in ways that we don't even realize that we're botching it. And it's interesting as you start to really hone in on the skills, you kind of go, Ugh. And it, it, there's, there's a rub, right?
It's, it is really hard to do this well, and it was, I remember like when I was working with, uh, Stephen Covey, right? Mm-Hmm. . We would go and he'd give these presentations and he'd teach, you know, a little bit about empathic listening or whatever, and he'd ask people in the audience to participate and respond. They'd have a mini conversation to practice this skill.
And you'd have a room packed with these really successful executives, and 100% of the time they would botch it out of the gate a hundred percent of the time. And it always surprised me, and I would kind of be in the back corner going, you know, making fun of them. In my mind, , but I, I botch it all the time. Yeah. And so it was so interesting to me how counterintuitive some of these skills are.
And the first one being like, it's intuitive for us to wanna prepare a reply, get onto the next thing, particularly when we're standing in front of a group counterintuitive, is to engage so much in what that person is saying, that you'll come to that later. Like setting it aside, well, puts me in a vulnerable position. I don't know what, what we're gonna move on to, and I'm in charge of leading the discussion.
It actually is kind of freeing to say, all I'm in charge of right now is understanding what it was that they were saying. And people are patient. If you say, Hey, I gotta go look at my notes really fast. I wanna make sure we move where we're supposed to go. You want a discussion guided by the spirit, not guided by your notes. Right. And so it's okay to like take a pause, don't feel like if I don't have it right, then as soon as this person's done talking, everybody's gonna be bored and tune out.
Yeah. No, relax, right? Yeah. Relax. - Amen. Amen. Well, you know, we could go on and on about these principles, but, and in fact, you have gone on and on on your podcast about some of these principles. , I don't mean that in a negative way, in a very good way. I mean, even this video, when your problem, when your problem is too much discussion, an hour and 27 seconds. I mean, people could dive into this and really go deep with, uh, Julie and, and Kevin and, and understand these concepts.
That's why you, this podcast needs to exist teaching restored. And I'm so glad you're doing it. So we're gonna Thank you. Send droves over. I hope everybody goes subscribe, listen to this. Thank you. Anything else you wanna say to plug this, uh, your, your awesome podcast or platform? - Oh, no. I just am so grateful that you said what you said. Thank you. We're having a ton of fun doing it. And if you're not having fun, you're not doing it. Right.
Right. That, that's right. I mean, come on, we're having a great time's. - Yeah. I mean, we, we realize teaching can be, you know, bring some anxiety and be hard or, you know, a lot of work. But at the end of the day, if you're not having fun, like, you know, of course give it a go a few months, see, see how it goes. But at some point, you're not having fun. I don't think anybody has any problem you walking into the bishop's office saying, this isn't fun. I've given it a go. Let's find something
else. . So . - That's awesome. I wonder how my husband would feel about that. He's bishop. It's not fun. What? Oh, yeah. Actually, that speaks to soul. If it's not fun. He, he's really one of those guys where everything in his life, life feels like fun is the priority. Yeah. And luckily he's become a little bit more adult. Okay. You know, as he's taken awesome. On responsibilities like being a bishop. - But that's cool. So last question I have for you.
As you reflect on your time as a teacher, or which is really synonymous with a leader, how has being a teacher helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? - Okay. I'll share just a really quick experience if I can. Yeah, please. I, when I first started teaching, um, I realized that I was so focused on what I was teaching that I neglected applying.
Does that make any sense? Mm-Hmm. , like, I was so focused on making sure that I was gonna say everything, that I wasn't reflecting as much on how to apply the things that I was learning. And I had to do some heart work, um, to really kind of make sure that I was figuring that out. And in the process, I have learned some things about myself. And one of the things that I've learned is that the gospel of Jesus Christ is real to me.
And that if I am willing to literally internalize the principles that I'm teaching and everything points to becoming more like our savior, Jesus Christ, that if I'm working in that direction, then I am just, the fruit of that is to be a better follower of Jesus Christ. And I recognize that I've got a long way to go. And, uh, obviously the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Right? And that includes the, the more I know I should be doing, the more I know that I'm not doing it.
It's kind of this yucky, like there's this divine discontent in you, um, that starts to emerge. And I've learned that leaning into that can be a really powerful experience. And so I love the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I love teaching it. I love talking about it. I love learning about it. I love more than anything though, figuring out how to make it real for me. - Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good? You know, I, I tend to pinch myself that this is what I get to do.
I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, uh, experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it. Drop it into text, message an email, and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode.
I mean, you're not done with the dishes or mow in the lawn or working out. So you might as well keep it going at the bottom of those show notes. And, uh, make sure you, you listen to each one, maybe a couple times on a few of 'em. Remember up your teaching game by listening to the David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leading saints.org/fourteen.
- It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.