Have you ever had a loved one leave the church and your relationship becomes awkward? This is so common and so sad. I got the chance to interview the Packard family who has been down this road. Cindy and Blair Packard are orthodox believing parents, and Josh, their son, and his wife have left the church. We came together to discuss their journey, and it was amazing what they taught. They talked about the communications they regretted and how other siblings responded in positive and
negative ways. They learned how to pick up the pieces again, express love, carry on, and build a beautiful relationship. This has become a favorite in the Questioning Saints virtual library. You can actually gain access to this interview at leadingsaints.org/fourteen. This will give you fourteen days to watch the Packard's interview and many others related to helping individuals who begin to question their faith. Go to leadingsaints.org/14 and get access now.
Hey. Did you know that we video record the vast majority of our interviews on the Leading Saints podcast? That's right. And then we upload it to YouTube because we have a Leading Saints YouTube channel and you should subscribe. Especially if you're the type of person that, listens to the podcast while you do the dishes or workout, you can put up the video and get the more immersive experience by seeing my beautiful mug and also the face of the various guests that are
on the Leading Saints podcast. And, it really helps us out to go to YouTube anyways, subscribe to the channel because that helps us dial in the algorithm and reach more people and get these powerful interviews out to leaders across the world who could benefit. So go to YouTube, search for Leading Saints, find our familiar red logo, and subscribe. Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Saints podcast. This is a
panel discussion in this episode. I bring in my good friends, Melanie, Christy, and Jolene, which random fact, all their husbands have actually been on the podcast as well. These are the circles I run-in. They're phenomenal people. But we talk about the heart of a woman, women's retreat that, we partner with and promote and encourage people to check out for many reasons which we'll get into in this discussion.
But just that you think of that the faith journey of sisters or women in our faith and what's working, what's not working, what are we worried about, therapies and, you know, all these things we try which are great, but what are some other things we should be aware of that maybe can help women in their journey of faith? And the Heart of Woman retreat is definitely one I stand behind and promote
because it is just that effective. My wife is generally at these and so, those who have opportunity to attend, you'll be able to hang out with my wife as well. But we get into that discussion of why these things are so impactful, how they relate to our faith journey and practices like going to the temple and how they emphasize and accentuate some of those religious practices that we do to maybe take a
renewal approach to those things. So anyways, if you have a a sister or if you're a a Relief Society president, you're worried about the faith development of women, this is a phenomenal resource. Of course, I I strongly encourage it, though there's lots of things to consider out there. But let's get in this discussion with Jolene, Christy, and Melanie, and I think you'll find it beneficial. Please share it. Alright. Today, I find myself back in the
studio with some of my favorite ladies. My wife couldn't make it, but, you all are, close second, third, and fourths, of all is now the the funny thing is that we were preparing for this is that I realized all of your husbands have been on the podcast at one time. Oh, how fun. So, I mean, I don't I just run into these great people and these power couples. So Yeah. Melanie Massaros, I say your last name right now.
I always hesitate. Right? And, maybe just give us a couple lines of where you're from or who you are or why we're here. Well, first of all, I'm a daughter of God. I'm a wife. I'm a mother of four children, and I've just had great experiences with leaders in the church and had the opportunity to lead in many different areas. Awesome. And we'll link to Murray's episode Oh, thank you. On the podcast. He has a wonderful approach to missionary work that you'll appreciate.
So, Christy, your husband, James, was just in here recently. So, tell us about you. I work with Melanie in Heart of a Woman and love every minute of it. When I was 19, the Lord kind of reached out his hand to rescue me from a life without him, and I've never looked back. So here we are. Cool. Very good. And Jolene Duckworth. Yes. This is the famous Dan Duckworth's wife. Does he talk about me what much? I mean, what she's more famous than me on this podcast.
I don't know. I definitely not you, Curt. But tell us about you. So I'm Joanne Duckworth, and I have I'm here because I participated in the heart of a woman for the first time this past session. October. October '20 '4. Right? Yes. So I it was actually your wife that got me to go. She's been working on me, and it finally worked out that I could go. And so I went to Heart of a Woman. And because of that, I will never be the same again. So I'm here to talk about
that. Wow. That's a big big standard we're setting there. I I believe it. So, Melanie, maybe just tell us, like, before we launch into this discussion, like, what when people ask, what is this Heart of a Woman retreat that you do? How do you how do you frame that in in a few sentences? Okay. Well, I'm going to start with why we do Heart of a Woman. Okay. Perfect.
And it's because women of faith, regardless which faith background they come from or where they're at, in their faith journey, they are longing for deeper relationship with God, with a deeper connection, with a greater sense of belonging, for purpose and meaning in their lives. And so we offer a three day intensive experience where women come to the mountain, they actually ascend to the mountain, And they unplug from the world, from all of their technology, from everything.
And they are immersed in the word of God through presentations. They're given time to sit alone with God and communicate with him in a way that they may never have done before. They have an opportunity to associate with other women of faith and feel the strength and power that comes from that. And then you're going to hear referenced because everybody has experience with this. We pray together a heart of a woman in a way that is maybe a little unique
in the Latter day Saint faith. We're not as good at praying with them for each other as they are in, in some other faith practices. But we practice that at heart of a woman and it changes you when you've had that experience. Yeah. Because this is an interdenominational experience. It's not a a Latter day Saint themed Right. Right. Experience. But, there's all all types of of Christian faiths there. All types of Christian faith and women from all types of Christian faiths are, feel comfortable
coming. Mhmm. And families, I love this because mothers and daughters who belong to different faith practices find this a place where they can come together and they have common ground with each other. And it's beautiful that way. Yeah. Because that's and I love that. Like, this is one of my favorite things about the heart of a woman is that in Utah, you don't get a lot of interfaith opportunities, I feel like. Right. I mean, you really have to be proactive about it. Right?
Mhmm. And this is a place where lots of Christian faith gather. And so there's moments where maybe someone with the LDS background go like, oh, this is kinda different, you know? And that's okay. And then there's others like, okay, this is more familiar. Whereas maybe someone else in the room is feeling a little uncomfortable. Right? And vice versa. You know, people who come up to Heart of a Woman with a, say, evangelical Christian background will encounter, like, some, you know, different
practices that are more common to LDS. And they're like, oh, oh, okay. This is great. I love, I love that meeting of the faith backgrounds. Yeah. It's a good thing. And one thing I'll mention, like I talk a lot about the Warrior Heart bootcamp that we call it's like a men's retreat experience. So this is kind of the, the sister organization because men come up there, they have a remarkable experience and they think, is there something that I can send my wife to like
this? And we always say, absolutely. And and this is it, the heart of a woman that so the same type of framing and experiences and interfaith experience, but one focused on God's love and our relationship with him and things like that. Right? And I also feel like in our faith tradition, we have such a strong foundation of, like, youth experiences like this. Like, you think of girls' camp. I mean, volumes could be written about the stories that the transformation, the conversion that happens
at a thing like girls camper. What do we call it? FSY and youth experiences, youth conferences. But then we kind of get to our adult ages and sort of like, okay, well, all right. Well, endear to the. Yeah. Yeah. Goodbye. Go to the temple and, you know, make sure you go to church. But there's something about, like, going to the mountains, being in a a brotherhood, a sisterhood, focusing on gospel principles that really like, that's the always what I saw on paper, this shouldn't
work. Like, we have dynamic speakers coming in or, you know, fireworks or, you know, these awesome activities. It's just it's a simple model that really transforms ladies. Right? Yep. Absolutely. Transforms lives. Yeah. And when you transform a woman's life, you transform everybody that she touches. Yeah. And that's the same with a warrior heart too, that a man's life is changed and then he comes home in every interaction and every
setting that he is. And I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we're leading all of the time. Right, Curt? It isn't just in our church callings. It isn't just in our families. But every interaction that we have with another person is an opportunity to lead. And so when we change that, I like to think that we're sending ripples out into the world that's really changing the world in small ways. Yeah. So, Julie, maybe I ask you this, like because you went to this, like it's not like you
were in a place of despair. I mean, you're a great mom. You got a a lot of good things going for you. I mean, how would you describe who you were going to this experience and then just then how it impacted you? So I would say that any mom knows that there is some element of despair that exists in that job. But, so I yeah. I wasn't coming from a a specific moment that happened in my life that I'm
like, I need to go. Mhmm. And yet, I don't think there's a person that doesn't have those needs that needs to go, if that makes sense. So I actually it was Alana talking about it that brought it to my attention. And, of course, then when you referenced the youth activities, that's something that I miss from that time. I I love being outside. I love doing all those active things. And there just isn't the opportunity for moms, especially. And so you tend to
just let your kids have those experiences. And so when it came to coming to retreat, that was actually one of my reservations was, can I afford to take this time? Can I afford to put money towards this because I could be using it for my kids or for someone else or and I even thought, well, I'll just I actually went back and forth and decided, no, I'm not gonna go? I'm gonna save the money. I'll just go for a hike. I'll pray a little bit harder. I'll make that experience for myself
happen. And sometimes we try to get creative. And then the spirit kept working on me and the spirit said, no, you need to be there. And so I listened to that spirit and I paid the money and I signed up and I was a little nervous to come because it was unknown and I had never done it before. And you don't know what to expect.
But the one good thing about being older is, you know, that's a normal feeling and you just need to push through and you need to get yourself there and you know that once you get there, you'll have a good time. And so that's what I did. And from the moment I got there and checked in the spirit was just so strong, allowing me to just relax and say, this is where I need to be. My heart is open and I'm here for the experience. And it really delivered. Yeah. That's
awesome. And sort of along those lines is like, Milon, you've been doing this for years and Christy even involved as well. I'm just curious, like, just generally speaking, what do we need to understand as far as where the the typical Relief Society sister is in the world? You know, they walk on the the campus there and you receive them with a hug and but you're sort of I'm sure you're picking up on, like, where they're at in life and and what what is it they're looking for when they
they come to something like this? What what comes to mind if you were to try and psychoanalyze the the Relief Society sister? Go ahead, Christy. I would say they're looking for rest Mhmm. And refreshment Yeah. And time for themselves. You eloquently said what what we as women naturally, you know, we wanna sacrifice for the people that we love in our lives. And a relief society president times three would be that, right? Or more. And so she's giving and giving and giving.
And when is she being filled? You know? And so I think I would safely say nine out of 10. If not 10 out of 10 women are coming. Many with hurt hearts, many with not though. I wasn't in a a terrible place when I first went, but we're all looking for time with God that life off of the mountain does not afford. You know, it just by its nature. Yeah. One of the things that we have the women do in the very first session is to examine their hearts and ask themselves,
what desire would I bring to God? What do I want him? He's the gift giver. Right? He's the abundant God. He's the one that freely wants to pour his love into our hearts. And so we have them write down what their desire is, what they want to lay at his feet, and then actually come and physically lay it at the feet of a picture beautiful picture of the savior that we have. And I think that that is a practice that sets the stage for a woman opening her heart and sitting with God and letting
him speak to her. And one of the things that I can be a witness to is that God has a different message and a different experience for every single woman. And so you can have a hundred women in the room and God's intentions for them that weekend, there are a hundred different intentions. Yeah. And so they bring their desires and then he speaks to them as an individual. It's it's this collective experience, but then again, it's such an intimate individual personal experience. Yeah.
Anything else around that? Well, I actually went back and was reviewing my notebook that I notes that I took from being at the conference. And it was interesting. That opening question was so powerful for me to even explore that because we don't take the time to kind of see where our heart is and where, what our heart desires. And one of the things that I wrote down was I wanted to do things that made me feel alive and connected.
And I wanted to be able to feel full and powerful was kind of a word that came up that I wanted to feel. And it was interesting to read this months later because I felt like a lot of this stuff had come true. And that's a good thing about note taking too, is you just realize this is happening in our lives and God does this work in us and through us.
So You know, it's interesting. There's a few instances in the in the gospels where the savior is healing somebody and on more than one occasion, he asks them, what do you want? And it's like, I mean, I'm obviously blind or I'm obviously lame. Like, obviously, you know what I want, but I it's such a reflective question that, you you know, and anybody listening to this may take some time and say, what is it you want? And where where can you be led to find that?
Absolutely. And it's powerful. And I think the other really powerful question, that women have a chance to reflect on while they're there is, father, what do you want for me? Mhmm. And his messages to us about what he wants for us are amazing and, and so personal and sacred. And I've never had I don't take that time, Kurt, to in my regular everyday life to just be alone with God and to just sit with him and to speak my heart to him and then have him speak his heart
to me. Yeah. And I would have never imagined the things that he wanted for me. I would have never imagined sitting here having this conversation today. It was not even in my wildest dreams. Yeah. And going back to what something you said, Christy, as far as, like, women, there's this need, sometimes a hidden need of just the rest. Right? And some people may hear this be like, what are you all talking about? We got the temples. We got, you know, elite society. We got these things like that.
So what comes to mind? I've got some thoughts, but what comes to mind for you when you like, don't we already have this mechanism to find to to do all this? Having been to retreat as many times as I have, I mean, you have to consciously build that into your day. And I I have for the most part less so lately just because of where I'm at. But, you know, even we are a church of of of doing. Mhmm. And I love it, but it does tend to lend itself to this perpetual
motion. Perpetual. Thank you. A perpetual motion. And even when we're in the temple, there isn't, you're listening a lot. You're not doing a ton of, at least I'm not, I'm not doing a ton of thinking. I'm listening to instruction. And then you, you know, you have the celestial room where you can be a little more, reflective, but it's not long. I suppose you could stay, you know, in there longer, but yeah, it's, and it is a it's a sacrifice of time, you know? Yeah.
As retreat is. So yeah. Well, and I do feel like I use my experiences now differently. Mhmm. I use the time that I have to sit. I more like what I had up there at retreat where I'm having that conversation with God, but even I'm just trying to be with him. Right. And it was interesting, Melanie, when you said that there are just so many different responses that women would have to the question of where their heart is and what their desires are. And that is so true.
And what amazes me is that the answer ultimately is the same for every one of us, which is, it's Jesus. And Jesus answers all of those questions. And I think that I am realizing more and more how powerful he is to answer those for us. And so I walked away from retreat feeling like I needed to run to him more and more often. And I think that was the clear answer. And so in those moments where I might have in my day to day, it's like, can I use this to run to him? Can I just sit with him and have
him hold me? Can I have him comfort me? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It changes the way you interact with your temple time and yeah, your prayers. It changes everything. The other thing I think that coming to retreat does is sends a very clear message to him. I want to be with you and I am willing to sacrifice the time, all of the other things I was supposed to get accomplished, even financially.
I'm willing to give an offering because those things are an offering, and I am willing to come and sit with you for three days. And that's time that he doesn't get from us very often. So true. You know, and there's it's something like obviously, the if we think of that, the temple, and it you know, it's been abbreviated even more recently. It's about an hour, hour and ten minutes, right? The session anyways.
And what if the church came out and offered, we're offering a three day temple experience. You know, I think a lot of us would be like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I would. I would. I would. I'd sign up. Right. However, the the way temples are made and the way it's function, it's just not built for that. Right. It's not there's no living quarters. You've got to go home. Nobody's coming and going. Nobody's feeding. Right. Those are my my mess. I was like, how do you feed the people?
Cafeterias in the temple are going going away. Right. And so there is still an opportunity. Well, like in the scriptures, the temple was the mountains. Right? And Mhmm. Did I say it too, like, much like a Utahan? The mountains, will forgive you. And so to go there to have an experience where you're just like, I just need because it's yeah. We can go to the temple and have our weekly thing. And and just naturally as humans, as we do things over and over, sometimes it just goes
stale. Church can get stale. The temple can get stale. And not because the nature of the thing is stale. It's our human I think we're the It's our own human nature. Yeah. Yeah. And so just sort of having a reset or a different experience in a different temple in God's wilderness and and focusing on the savior and his love and and some of the principles you talked there, it it does have this rejuvenating of, like, my experience with the men, and I know it's the same with with the women.
They go home not thinking, well, I gotta get rid of that stale stuff. They think, no. Now I know how to reapproach it. Yeah. I know. Free gauge. Yeah. For instance, I would say that all of us would say that our experience with the sacrament is different. Yeah. That coming home we come home from retreat. We go up on a Thursday morning and we come home on Saturday night. And then in the morning, we get to go and we get to partake of those sacred emblems, and they mean more to us. Mhmm. Yeah.
Yeah. It's powerful. Actually, the temple means more. Yep. Because I know how desperately God is reaching out to me to have the bond of those covenants. He wants me bound to him so tightly. Mhmm. But I experienced it on the mountain, then I go to the mountain of the Lord's house, and I understand how deeply he wants that. Yeah. It's not just us that are wanting to reach out to him, but he is desperately reaching out to us.
Yeah. And I know, you know, in the men's retreat experience, which you do the same, you have these these vows of silence. After every session, you just say, forty five minutes, just don't talk. Yeah. Go go for a walk. Go journal. Yeah. Go journal, whatever. Right? And it's helped me, like, understand how to deal with silence. And so when I walk into the sacrament or while I walk into a celestial room, I'm like, I'm okay here. Like, where before I'm like, I kinda just did the session. Like, was
there Yeah. Any revelation for me? Like, because I had to get going. Right? But to be able to just I call it God's living room. Right? Like, I can just sit in God's living room. Just be present. Like and that's a skill set I don't think I would have had without this type of experience. I had that. I had an at home experience recently. I woke up early in the morning as I am want to do. And I said, heavenly father, what do you want? And what is the most important thing for
this day? And he said, I just want you to sit. I don't want you to ask me anything. I just want you to sit with me for a little while. I just want you to feel my love. I want you to feel the spirit. And I don't know that I would have known to ask that. And I don't know that I would have felt comfortable just doing that. Yeah. Any other thoughts come up that went ahead before we move on? Well said. Awesome. And that silence is a blessing. Yes. To be able to get in half.
Yeah. Part of this interfaith experience, interdenominational experiences is the music that's there. Right? And this is something that, you know, because you play, you not you play, but you, have moments of worship like a evangelical tradition. Right. When you they worship, that means they are standing and listening to music and lyrics and things. Right? Yeah. Receiving. Right. You know, their hands in the air is that they are receiving the spirit into
them. That's their form of doing that. Right. And then definitely not required, but Mine too now. Like that I love it. I love so funny that you you bring out the music. I had a really hard time with the music when I came up as an attendee because, you know, I just I had voices in my head from, you know, from my history and I could not let go of what they would think if they saw me, like, participating in this strange worship music and
I just couldn't let go. And and finally, like, God in one of the vows of silence, he was like, you've got to let it go. Like, do you want to be here with me? Like open your heart to this new way of doing worship with me. And, you know, it's always, and still to this day, I'm always like, okay, shut it. Just let it go. It's always a thing I wanna, it's always goes into my surrender fire. Yeah. So there's, you know, this phrase that we've heard a
lot. I think I heard it first from Terryl Givens when he talked about holy envy. Mhmm. And how in different faith practices there are things that we look at and can embrace Holy Week. I love that the church is embracing Holy Week and helping us to be more intentional about the way we approach the resurrection of our savior. But Christian music is one of those things that's holy envy. Yeah. Our son left the faith he was raised in and belongs to a great evangelical congregation.
And he was in a terrible accident where he could have lost his life. And I saw him surrounded by his band of brothers in his church, and they laid their hands on him. And they prayed for him in such a powerful, intimate way. And I had holy envy for that. I wanted that, you know? So I think it's okay that we see things and we want to embrace them and make them a part of our personal faith practice. Yeah. And I don't I don't come back from these experiences thinking
we should have worship music and sacramy. Like, no. No. It's not different. It's a different thing. Right? And it's a different reverence and and has a different purpose. But to be amongst my fellow Christians in that setting to to participate and hear their music, a lot of times, it's an awakening for a Latter day Saint who's like, hey. This music has been out there the whole time. Like, it's
it's actually good music. It's Yeah. We often think that, you know, church music can be kinda cheesy and you can find it. It's out there. Right? But there's some really great things that really orient your heart towards God and, you know, I'm still bouncing around town listening to to it, you know, on on Spotify or whatever it is. So it can be a really powerful part of that. What did you think of worship music? Well, I I was having two
thoughts run through my head. One was it is hard at first if you don't grow up that way. Yeah. Mhmm. So everything inside of my heart and my mind was like, yes. I love this, and I just wanted to break out. And then it came out like awkward. Like, just like my body wouldn't do what my mind and heart wanted to do because it just
haven't practiced that. And so so I have been practicing at my house and and in places where other people can't see me and just letting that music flow through me and to be able to just be rejoicing in in God. And so we actually brought home that music. My husband went to the Warrior Heart, and he brought it home first and started playing it all the time. And our kids love it. And just the other day, our eight year old came home with an all about me poster that he filled
out at school. And his favorite song he wrote was God is Good. And you'll have to look it up for people listening. It's one of our favorites. That's cool. And he wouldn't have written that if his parents hadn't have come home playing these great Christian music, worship music. Yeah. I find everything that I've experienced at retreat has only added to my own faith practice and made it fuller and richer. Mhmm. That's what I would say.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's awesome. You know, in our faith theology and our theology, there's a heavy emphasis on identity. I mean, obviously, from I am a child of God to going to the temple to receive a new identity, this is a big part of it. And it's, again, done in a way that is more interdenominational and interfaith. What what comes to mind when as far as women and identity, I mean, that could be a huge sticking point in just general society. Right? Yeah. I give you good enough question.
Yeah. I wanna start in a different place. Okay. Okay. And I want to start in feeling God's love just a little bit. We have women I think this is common amongst women. Okay? I'm just gonna say, there are two things that are common amongst women. They can see that God loves everybody else Mhmm. But they don't feel it personally for them, And they see how God could see worth in everybody else, but they can't see it for them personally.
And so I am a child of God is this song that we sing, and we love it, and we teach our children, and we want them to know it. But knowing that I, Melanie, am his child. George MacDonald, who was nineteenth century pastor and poet in Scotland, and he was really a mentor to CS Lewis. He said that in God's heart, there is a place specifically for that individual child that only that child can fill. And then in each child's heart, he placed a place that only God can fill for that child.
So for me, that's what I got that I had not received in the same way before, that he had this special spot for me and that I have this special spot in my heart that only he can fill. That's very intimate. Mhmm. And it's different than this collective idea or this collective identity that we think about. The second thing that happened to me when I went to retreat, my retreat experience is that John and Stacey Eldridge's captivating retreat, which is provides a a general
framework for what we do. They asked us one question to take into a vow of silence, and that was, if God were to give you a nickname or a term of endearment that was just for you, what would that be? I went out onto this hillside thinking God would not well, first of all, I thought it was a hokey question. Yeah. And then, second of all, I thought he wouldn't answer.
And, I have to back up the bus a little bit and tell you, those of you in the audience that don't know me know that I'm a very strong willed determined woman. And sometimes that comes across to other people a little over. It's okay. It can be too much. I can be too much. Right? And it was something that I didn't like about myself and that I that I wanted to change about myself. So when I went out onto the mountain and said, what would you call me? Right immediately was feisty girl. And I said,
what? That gets me into so much trouble. And I could feel God's delight in me. And he said, yes, it does get you into trouble. And I can send you into places that I can't send other people because I know that you will go ahead and do it. And I will teach you how to temper that and use it for my good and my glory. And all of a sudden, this thing that I didn't like about myself became this thing that God delighted in. And I had an identity that was different now. Right? Yeah. That's a
different kind of an identity. So now I am his daughter that he delights in and that he will help me with all of the things that are hard about my personality or that I think are hard. He has a purpose for them and he'll help me with that. And so that's what I would say Yeah. Yeah. About those two things. And then worth doesn't become what anybody else thinks about you. You know that your worth is intrinsic and that doesn't change.
And it doesn't get bigger or it doesn't get less because of anything you say or you do in your life. You have worth just because you are his offspring. Yeah. And then I don't know if it's specific for our faith tradition, but we definitely have examples in our faith communities and our wards. And, you know, with the lay leadership, you know, the our friends, our contemporaries, sometimes get put on these in these callings that seem like, oh, they figured it out. They
are their identity is different than mine. And and, again, that's not the intended message, but through the the help of the adversary, that's often comes across. So sometimes there's this, like, actually, I think there's a problem with my identity. And so for God to guide you down this path of, like, no. Actually, I put that in you. It's supposed to be that way. It's Yes. It's very validating. Yeah. It was extremely validating.
And then I went back into in six months after that, I found myself as Relief Society president of award. And then I was able to see all of those other women from different eyes. Don't you think you see people from different eyes? A %. Jolene, and I think you should share your experience about how that's played out for you because that was so powerful
when we chatted. Yes. So after I came home from retreat, I reached out to a friend who I was trying to get to come to retreat with me and she didn't feel like she was ready to go. And so I reached back out and this is a friend that I have known for maybe five, six years. Her son had committed suicide. And then just before retreat was happening, her daughter was killed in a motorcycle accident and she has just tremendously hard experiences that she's
been through. And on top of that, doesn't have a lot of faith and really barely any hope left and just left is leaving her in a place of just darkness and sadness. And it kind of shows in her outward appearance and where she, you know, she's covered in tattoos and piercings and has, you know, shaved her head and things. And so on the outside, you can see that her heart is hurting and she's looking for that, that love from God. And so I have gotten to know her and she's
just beautiful. And I can see in her that beauty and that worth. And like you said, Melanie, like, it's just hard to see in yourself and that's where she was at. Well, I came back from retreat with this new understanding of how God sees us and I felt I had felt God's love that translated into feeling his love for me. And so now that my cup was full, I was able to then reach out and say, look at all of these other women that he loves just as much and they don't even know it yet. And I need
to tell them. And so I went over to visit her and it was really just a visit to comfort because of her daughter passing. And because of my experience at retreat and the prayers that we had together, I first, for the first time thought I have the power to pray with her. I can do this. Like I, it was putting myself into like a new, a new situation because it wasn't something I would normally do. I would normally pray for her. I would say, Oh, maybe you can get
a priesthood blessing. Like those are some of the answers that I would have had. But this time I had a new answer, which was, can we pray together? And she just looked at me and she said, yes, I would love that. So we held hands and I prayed and I prayed as somebody who knew I was a daughter of God, that I was connected to Him. And therefore I had every right to ask for these blessings from a loving God. And it was powerful for me and it
was powerful for her. And we just had this wonderful moment. And since then, she actually has a third daughter who got diagnosed with cancer and she's facing a lot, but I was just over there the other day visiting and she looked so much happier. It seems like her life has gotten harder, but she is happier and she's, she has some hope And I will continue to pray with her and we'll pray together because that was I'm seeing the power that it has in her life.
I love that so much, Jolene, because president Nelson has been so intentional the whole time he's been president of the church, helping the women of the church to know that they have access to God's power, that God's power is priesthood power, and that that is not determined on priesthood office, but it is determined about the covenants that we make with him that allow us to have that access to his power.
And when we as women know that we have the power to pray down God's love and his power onto somebody else, that gives us a weapon that is more powerful than anything else we could it's more powerful than anything else that we could give to another person. Right. If we can just get over the shyness and the awkwardness we have, because it's not part of our faith practice to say,
let me pray with you. Yes. Right. But it's so powerful when somebody prays over you, especially when you don't have the strength or the hope to do that for yourself. Mhmm. That's right. Even before I came in here to do this podcast with you, my daughter called from college and she's really sick right now. And I said, I just have a few minutes to talk. I have to go in and do this thing, but can I just pray with you over the phone? And I just realized now I need to
tap into that as much as possible. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I'm trying to There is a power in that. Awesome. Any other stories, whether personal or just from ladies who've attended or Coming to retreat and having it be like a twice a year thing that I do. It's I feel like I'm just kind of breathing it in all the time, but man, it's hard to say what I would be like otherwise because it has been a number of years, but it changes the way I walk into a leadership role.
If you know, as a new newly called, young women's president in the ward, I think I would have walked into that with way less security than I otherwise did. You know, because I do know my I do know my shortcomings and I am not the typical choice for a young woman president. You know, I'm very introverted and shy and, you know, quiet. And there are so many other women in the ward who would be a lot more fun.
And Mhmm. But, you know, I just knowing God the way I knew him because of retreat, I knew that he had something there for me. I had something that somebody in that organization needed, one of the girls needed, or more. You know, somebody needed my quiet love and the way that I gave it. You know, and that allowed me to walk into that calling with, yeah, like I said, just more security, more confidence, more, like, this is I can do this. You know? I may not be everybody's flavor and that's okay.
Like, I'm here. I am being faithful to what God is asking me to do in this day. So Yeah. I'm glad you bring that up because I know this happens more often than not, but, you know, you're called to these positions and of leadership in the church and it's sort of it's daunting. Right? It's like It is. And we there's always that sister or that brother, whomever, who's just so good with people, like shaking their hands,
connecting, loving, hugging, whatever. And a lot of times, like, I I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to connect
with others. And I found that, you know, as I talked, you know, just in the the men's retreat experience, like, if you are in a place where you have a hard time understanding how to connect as a man, like, this is a great thing to come, not because they teach you the five steps of how to connect with others, but you suddenly you kinda get a sense for of, like, the needs of of women and the the spiritual deficits they may face or maybe something Melanie said or Christy said. Like, I I appreciate
that. I could probably stand up in in front of release sign and give a similar message or, you know, what whatever it is. So I think there's just these nuances that you learn from experience like this better connect as a leader. Absolutely. And I just was able to step into my power and whatever that meant, it looked different from any other woman that would have been called, you know, and they and she would have been a a great choice too, all the other women. But but it was for me in
that season. And I was able to give what I had to give and develop. I mean, obviously callings are also about developing what we, you know, our deficits and, you know, growing in a little bit of a little bit more fun, you know, and okay, let's blast Beyonce and dance, you know, and whatever, you know, whatever you girls wanna do. But, you know, but also being confident in the
way that he made me. Like Melanie said, you know, the, the feisty girl and I had quiet giver energy and, and that was fabulous for some of the girls that other leaders wouldn't have been able to reach as much. So, and man did inform my lessons in young women. I mean, I just circled back every time, like, you know, the the lesson framework is so fantastic, but man, did I bring it down into specifics and, you know, I used retreat language and
I would even bring in worship music. And I I just I was unorthodox about it and sometimes jarred the girls out of their comfort. Like, oh, okay. You know, I was pretty bold about some of the things that I taught. And Yeah. I like I said, I don't think worship me just be in the sacrament meeting, but you better believe I start every elders quorum with a worship song. You know what I mean? Like, because we're in the gym and it's like, just sit and listen and read the words, you know, before we get
started. Let's sort of ground ourselves here before we jump in. That'd be awesome. Yeah. So Well, and one thing that has me thinking is and maybe all of your listeners are have leadership callings. So maybe this doesn't apply, but there might be somebody listening who doesn't. Yeah. And so this has helped me thinking about God's love and being a leader for somebody who doesn't normally get leadership callings. Because I have been adult member of the
church for, you know, twenty something years. I'll be generous to myself. Yes. What is that? And don't get those callings. And so I show up on Sunday without those leadership responsibilities. And how do I show up and how do I lead? And knowing who I am and knowing who I can who I connect into, the savior, allows me to find ways to serve God and to build his kingdom. And I can do it in the halls of church, but I do it much more often outside of
church. And that's been important for me for my identity as somebody who doesn't normally get to say, I got to be the such and such president or da da da da. You know, it's not everybody gets that opportunity in our church. And so I think sometimes we quietly wonder, oh, is there something wrong with me? Or, but, you know, was there's, like how do I get that little arrow to point to my head so the bishop will pick me and not and and I'm going to probably jinx myself here. Right?
Probably. Yeah. I'll I'll have to call you guys. Guess what? But I'm safe to say if you've been, you know, a quarter of a century, I can talk about that. And so knowing that my identity as a leader is allowing God to do his work through me, it doesn't have to have an official calling. Absolutely. To do that. Every person is a leader. Yeah. And I think the most profound experiences we have are those that we have in our everyday life with the personal encounters that we have with other people.
We are a leader in the church for a short period of time, and then we're released. And if that is our identity Yeah. Then that release is a really hard thing. Right. But if we know that we're going to get released from that calling, but we are still going to continue to love and serve and witness that loving, serving, and witnessing is what we are called to do in every facet of our lives, then the calling is just something, oh, I get to do this calling for this period
of time. But this is what God has really called me to do in life. Yes. I had a chance to visit with two of our attendees who had had powerful experiences in how it changed, how how they mothered. One is a woman who is not currently active in the church, but has a son
who is serving a mission. And when he calls disparaged about the call for numbers and, you know, knock on so many doors, teach so many discussions, you know, all the number things, she just says, Well, honey, what are you doing to just love the people? Let's talk about how you are called to love. And that shifts the whole experience that he's having on his mission, because then he knows that that's what he's
supposed to focus on. Yeah. The other woman woman was a single mom who had felt that she was less than number one, being single in the church is a difficult thing. Mhmm. You know? And then number two, for so many years, not having a priesthood holder in the home was kind of taught as there's a deficit there. And she came to retreat and experience
God's power and love. And he taught her that she could go home and lead and preside in her home and call down God's power through faith and prayers, and that she was never alone, that he was with her, and that she could happily call a a priesthood holder in to give a blessing to her family. But there was so much that she could just do Mhmm. Because of who she was. Yeah. And I love
that. Yeah. That's awesome. Before we wrap up, maybe just you know, we've talked more principle focused and, maybe been vague more vague about the experience itself. But what are the how would you describe the nuts and bolts of the experience? Like, what are what are we gonna do exactly? Because sometimes there's some trepidation of, like, is this is this too weird? Or Are we gonna get up and dance and kumbaya?
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So maybe just give us the what's the experience, the nuts and bolts of the experience? It is it's 10 presentations. So there is there's instruction time, and then there's the vows of silence that we mentioned where our hope is that you go out and be with God and and talk to God and listen listen for him. And then we've got adventure time, which is so fun. Lots of rock, you know, rock climb wall climbing, the giant swing, the archery, you should Or go take a nappy then,
right? Yep. If that is your adventure That is a very favorite. That is a valid adventure. And then, you know, you don't worry about anything. You show up and you get taken care of for three days. You're not helping make a meal or renewing a meal. People are feeding you, and you're sleeping maybe with women in a room that you don't know very well. But we've never had that be like such a stumbling block that someone didn't have a great experience, you know? Yeah. We have women who come as groups
Yeah. With people that they know and they have a great experience. And then we have a woman who comes on her own and feels maybe a little nervous about that experience and goes home with so many new friends Yep. People that she's made. And even people who come with groups split up because they're wanting to experience creating relationships with other people. And there's just such a feeling of sisterhood
and love on that mountain. When I get up to Big Canyon Ranch, it's like the air that you breathe is different, you know, and you pass someone on the little path going to the lodge and you see each other's divine identity on the path. It's just beautiful. It's beautiful. We have movie nights and there's just sisterhood. It's just sisterhood to the
max. And I will say that the presentations are maybe not like what you have experienced before because the presenters first of all, it's a much more casual setting and it's not like somebody getting up and giving a talk. Mhmm. But they are sharing principles with you, sharing experiences from their own lives. They're punctuating the point that they're trying to make with a powerful video clip or with a piece of music
that's powerful. And so it just drives the message into your heart in a slightly different way because it's hitting all of the senses. Yeah. And it's really raw and authentic. And so because the speakers are, it allows you to be. And so everyone, by the end, everybody is hugging each other. And you had shared a story, Melanie, of somebody who came and was worried about looking different and being different. Yes. So we had a woman who came straight from a drug addiction recovery program.
And she came and her head was shaved and she was tattooed and pierced and dressed differently. And she walked into the room the first day. I remember watching her walk in and she came along the side and got herself to a corner as quickly as she could. And she said, I looked around that room the first day and said, I am not like anybody in this room. And she said the last day she looked around that room and said, I am like everybody in this room. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. That's the
feeling at retreat. Yeah. Yep. Well, we'll put all the links and things in the in the show notes, but it's theheartofawoman.net is Correct. A website that that's sort of a good landing page to go to to read all the details, register. There is a cost to it, but, you know, obviously, we have to you have to rent the venue, food, all those things. But there are scholarships available. I know Leading Saints will will sponsor
scholarships. We don't want anybody to feel like the only reason I didn't go is because of cost of it. Because of the cost. And that really never happens. I mean, we can figure out a way for you to get there. I'm just thinking for, like, leaders listening, if there's maybe, you know, maybe that, her sister has gone to therapy so long and, you know, therapy is great and, you know, try different therapists, whatever, but sometimes it's like, I need something different. This is a
really powerful thing. If there's been betrayal in a in a marriage, this is a really powerful thing for that sister to help too. Anything else? And we have we have many bishops who send individuals from their ward. Mhmm. And it is a breakthrough for them with the work that they're doing with a therapist. Yeah. They progress much more quickly after this experience. And the work that the bishop is trying to do with them, it usually accelerates because of that experience. Retreat is coming up May.
And like you said, there is a charge, but it's less than going away with your girlfriends for a weekend and getting a hotel and having meals. Yeah. And it's an investment in yourself. We are offering a special discount for Leading Saints listeners, and Kurt will put that Yep. Code and the discount in the show notes for us. Yeah. That's awesome. I can't recommend enough, and and you get to hang out with my wife probably because she's usually there. So Well, Linus told me she's coming in May. Oh,
good. So So good. She has her list of women she's bringing. Yeah. Good. Yeah. She she does She does a great job. She is a great advocate for us. Awesome. And this is the type of thing, like, people in, well, it's in Utah. No. This is, like, type of thing that people fly into Utah for. Like, it is worse if that's something that you can you can have. Hawaii, New York, all across the country. Yep. Exactly. New Zealand. Yeah. It's it's happening. We'll we'll it'll come
near you, hopefully. But, for now, it's in Utah, and we encourage people to come in May. So what final encouragement would you give to women? Not just necessarily coming to the retreat, but just if they're in that state of confused about their identity or downtrodden. I mean, what what final message would you have for them? I I've got this image in my head, and so I'm gonna share it. I feel
like retreat is okay. So real life off of the mountain is like someone is serving you tennis balls of of God's love. You know, like here's one, you know, and they lob it at you and it like it's bouncing. You don't have a racket and it's bouncing off you. It's not like it's not getting in as well. You're you're you're getting hit with it, you know, and you can feel them.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's true. And then you come to retreat and it's like, God has got his bow and arrow and he aims it right at your heart and pulls it, you know, pulls it back and lets it go. And it, like, it lands and, like, explodes and then, like, goes out into the world and it's there you go. There's my little analogy. That's perfect. That's what came. Okay. Jolene, go ahead. So I believe that a woman who is full of light is powerful and that light comes from Jesus.
And so what I've learned from retreat and what I'm learning daily trying to walk with him is that he wants us to give him our hearts so he can heal it and he can fill it full of light and allow us to do good. And so I think that would be my message, to those women who are listening is the savior wants your heart and he wants to heal it and he is able to heal it and he will fill it full of light. Awesome. Melanie, final word. I love that.
My one of my favorite things is to get up early in the morning and to go sit in a big Adirondack chair on a big patio in front of the event Barn and watch the sun come up. And to me, that's representative of here I just get to rest. I get to rest in his love. I get to rest in his light. I get to rest in fellowship with other good women. I get to rest in the word of God, and there is not enough rest in this world for women. So if you need rest, come rest with us.
Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting the leading saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider and you picked this one. If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, we would sure like to hear about it at leadingsaints.org/contact. And if you could quickly text or email this episode to a leader, you know, I bet it will bless their life. You can mark off your good turn daily and let's even call
it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that far, but seriously, thank you and help us share this content. Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/14 to hear the Packard family's experience of when loved ones leave the church. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.