It seems like struggles with pornography get most the airtime these days since it is so available in modern times. However, drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at shocking rates. As a church leader, you need to be prepared. We have a library full of resources focused on this topic. The presentation I would recommend you start with is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can learn from Captain Moroni to help our loved ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.
His story of how he loved his son through his addiction is powerful and redemptive. You can listen to this presentation in the Recovering Saints library by going to leading saints.org/14. Put your information in there and that will give you 14 days at no cost. I made it easier for you and put the link in the show notes or you can go to leading saints.org/14. So my name is Kurt Frankem and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and obviously the host of the Leading
Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some, traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all
over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about, sharing what
the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, k. I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. Welcome back to another how I lead episode. My name is Kurt Frankem. And today, we're welcoming in Garth Pedersen from the Queen Creek area in, you know, Phoenix area in Arizona. And, he reached out to me a few
months ago and said, hey. You know, I've been trying some different things. And I said, I wanna hear about your different things. And, so pay attention to the especially he talks about the, the ministering night they do every 4th Sunday, I believe it was, and how he models or encourages others to go out and minister on this night, making it a group effort and surely showing leadership, you know, sort of walk alongside type of leadership with, the elders
in this quorum. And, we talk all things, the ministering in this. I know there's a variety of ways to come administering to, to do the interview thing. And, and Garth simply shares his approach and has some really thoughtful, scriptural perspectives when it comes to administering and not just making it an assignment, but making it a lifestyle. How do you stimulate that culture? So I think you'll find, this interview inspiring. So here's my interview with Garth Pederson.
Alright. Garth Pedersen, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Thanks, Kirk. It's good to, be here with you. For sure. Now you are in the the Phoenix area. Is there any specific area in Phoenix where you're at? We're in the San Tan Valley, Queen Creek area. Oh, Queen Creek. Nice. Very good. Didn't didn't they just announce the temple there? Right? Yep. They just announced the temple. Very cool. Awesome. How long is your current commute? I assume it's is it Gilbert?
Yeah. It's about 35, 40 minutes Nice. Getting on traffic. So So this will get you less than 10? I mean, what more do you need? Yeah. There's a few possibilities at places that the church owns, but Yeah. We're not gonna know for a while. So Yeah. Yeah. We know that game. So you are currently serving as the elders quorum president. Is that right? Yes. Nice. And, you sent me an email a few months back, basically saying let's see. He says, I'm currently
an elders quorum president. Would love to discuss with you how we have moved ministering forward in our ward and the miracles we have seen in the lives of members by using the principles of ministering. If you're interested in talking about it, please let me know. And at anytime I get these type of interviews where you a quorum or a group somewhere has tried something new, and it's working or tried, you know,
slightly different approach. Let's, yeah, let's get it out there and see if we can duplicate it or help others. So, maybe just start I mean, is it pretty typical I mean, in in Phoenix or Queen Creek, it's pretty traditional, ward and and makeup, or how would you describe the the makeup of your ward and quorum? Yeah. It's pretty traditional. We have a lot of younger couples moving in and older couples. It kinda fluctuates a little bit because we do have some rental properties and whatnot.
But for the most part, it's pretty typical of a normal ward, I guess, you can say. How many elders typically show up to elders corp? So elders' corps, we probably have 20 to 25 Yeah. Okay. That come to elders' corps. So second hour. Yeah. Awesome. And, then how long have you been in this role? Almost 3 years. So February will be 3 years. So just over two and a half
years. Nice. And, like, just approaching this, you know, ministering as a as a presidency, like, was this something from the very beginning you tried to do something different, or did you or was it a a few years in? Or how'd that work? So, yeah, I've been in leadership way too much. What I've seen in that leadership is there seems to be a lot of times a cultural disconnect with men when it comes to ministering. Right? And I've heard everything. I mean, I've had an elders from president
after he got released in our presidency. He's like, I hate home teaching. Right? And so, right, because it just became a burden Mhmm. Instead of a blessing, to him in his life. And that's exactly what God doesn't want. So, you know, and you've heard everything, like, from, well, my ministers don't come, so I'm not gonna go. Or I've never had ministering happen at my house, so I'm not gonna
go or whatnot. And so we felt like, to begin with, that that had to be a focus on what we were trying to do as a presidency from the beginning. And so what we tried to do was build a culture of different things that we had seen that didn't work. So for instance, one of the principles that we tried to implement was a culture of no shame. Because what ends up happening is a lot of times, you know, you'll get up there and know this girl and be like, guys, we gotta do our ministry and I know you're.
Right? And and so it's like this constant nagging. And, if any of you are married, then you know you hate that from your wife. So I'm not gonna do it to you. And so right? So there's this this expectation almost that I have to say something about ministering all the time. Uh-huh. And I rarely say anything about ministering directly or have, like, a lesson on ministering or whatever. So what I'm trying to do is learn the principles myself
first and foremost. Right? Because I I can't change their hearts. I can only change me. I can only change my attitude towards it or how I how I live the gospel. Right? I learned that from my kids that I can't I can't change them. I can't change my wife. I can't change the brother. And so I got what I, as an elders corps president and presidency, we have to build a a culture as well as a an environment where ministering can thrive.
And now I'm not gonna sit here and be like, we're amazing at ministry or like, you know, we always get a 100% ministering or something like that. That's not what that's not what the the Lord expects us right away. Right? To just be like, everybody get on board and this is a miracle and, you know, but it's it's that line upon line, precept upon precept, just individually. I love how they've changed it from, you know, go and do these things to you're just gonna have an interview
every quarter and to talk about it. And to have that space where you can, discuss the principles of ministering in a in a setting and also demonstrate to them what ministering looks like. So anyways, that's what we tried to do from the beginning. And so we discussed how do you create that environment? What are the principles that involve ministering? And then how do we go out and and help invite them to live those principles? Yeah. So, I'm trying to make sure I'm
getting all the details here. So the first one was no shame. Like, that was in the like, things that didn't work. Was there anything else in that as far as things you're going to avoid that didn't work? A lot of times what ends up happening is we'll give an assignment and then see you in 3 months. Right? And we expect them and we almost set them up to some degree to fail. Just like a child, you can't just be like, hey, 6 year old. Go clean your room, and then expect them to know how to
do it. And I'm not saying that we treat them like children or anything like that, but it's kind of that same mentality because there is right? There's the natural man within each of us that has reservations, especially in our time of interacting with people we don't know, even if in even within the church. And so that was another thing that we heavily tried to figure out how we could better implement that.
And some of the things that we found was actually in our conversation with the bishop and me and the release study president, she suggested that we start inviting the brother in or the ministering sisters on visits with us. Mhmm. So instead of me going with my counselor to go visit a family, I would invite the ministering brothers to go with me. Mhmm. So I would set up the appointment. I would get you know, I'd already be meeting with them for whatever reason.
And, you know, you obviously gotta take it case by case because you might have financial, you know, issues or privacy concerns. So you don't wanna take them on every single, you know, visit. But if I was going to visit somebody, then I would take the ministering brother with me, if I could if we if we could get the schedule to work out.
And, right, just those little tiny tweaks, those little tiny nuggets of spiritual wisdom, if you wanna say, or, you know, spiritual impressions where the Lord said, just try this. Yeah. And then that leads to the next step and the next step and the next step. And I think too often, we try to make this grandiose, you know, we gotta change everything. That wasn't what we set out to do. We just gotta make this huge, like, complicated program, you know, or whatever. It's just like, no.
What's the one thing? What can we do right now, today? Yeah. Or this week or this month or whatever it is. And let's build towards that vision that God has of a Zion people. Like, we're not we're not close to there. Yeah. That's our goal. But if we don't have that vision, right, the scripture say, without
vision, the people perish. If we don't if the leadership doesn't have that vision of where we're trying to get and what ministering can do, and as long as ministering is just a program, if that's what we believe it is, then we'll never understand what God is trying to teach us through ministry. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So the 22 big concepts I hear is, 1, the the no shame, which is, which is powerful. Like and, really, what does that look like? I mean, like you said, it like, you just
don't always bring it up. Right? Sometimes it would be overdone, and and and sometimes if if you're the the elders court president, really say president is always bringing up ministering. It's sort of like this. It's more about your ego as the leader because you gotta get this done. And if I don't remind you this gotta get done, they won't get done, and you kind of
hyperfocus on it that way. But and then the other one, I I don't know if you'd frame it this way, but just that continued support of of being there and not just saying here's your assignment. You know, we're gonna talk about it here in a few months, but here's your assignment. How can we all work together to make sure people are being looked after? Exactly. You know, what the what I felt like because I was in the bishopric when, you know, president Nelson came into,
into his as a prophet. Yeah. And and I saw at the time, you know, they're making all these changes and making differences. It was more support. Like, we're there to support you. You as the parents and as the individuals and families are to lead your family in righteousness. And we're there to support you. We're give we're there to give you the tools that you need. And but it's your responsibility as the parent.
And when it's funny when I the night before I was called in to the state presidency, right, I had a prayer of father, I need you to help me become a better father. Right? Because I was struggling with stuff with my kids. This one in particular, but right with my kids. And and I was just like, I I need your help. I need I need to know how to do this better. And the next day, that's when he called me. And, right, it has changed me. It has made me a better father.
And it's it's because of the ministering aspect of the calling in nature. Right? My my calling isn't to have a ministering assignment. It's to minister to everybody in the ward, and and help others to do the same. But going from that support or from that kind of mentality of, oh, well, the church is gonna teach that. Mhmm. Or the Relief Society is gonna teach that. Or the young men are gonna teach that to my kids to know that's my responsibility.
No. I need to be the one that's taking on that role, I think was a huge step for the church. And not necessarily saying this wasn't the case before, but again, making that cultural change and shift to saying this is what's important and this is how we should be focusing on the gospel as teaching it to our kids. You know, everybody loved taking 1 hour out of a church. I'm sure there were some people that didn't. But everybody loved the, right, the taking the 1 hour and, like, oh,
yeah. This is awesome. And then it's like, but what was the purpose? Right? Yeah. The purpose was to spend more time with the family, and then we see the blessings of that and the the preparation of that through the lockdowns of COVID and and whatnot. So Mhmm. So we've talked sort of about these things that you're trying to avoid, like the no shaming and making sure you're offering support and things. But, I mean, maybe the it's back up, but just tell us, like, what are you doing?
What have you found this working is if you were to articulate just your approach in general to ministering as the elders of the court presidency, how would you impact that? Yeah. So, like I said, it hasn't been like, this is all the information. Right? This is the path forward. But it's been a a steady flow of revelation through the keys of the priesthood. And a lot of the stuff doesn't come from me.
Right? It it's in a council either with the Relief Society, with me and the Relief Society president and the bishop, or me and my counselors. Right? It doesn't matter where it comes from. It's recognizing, hey. Let's try that. Or, yes, that's the right answer. But what I we tried to implement at the beginning was, one thing that I hate is, like, formal interviews. Right? And so I was like, I hate formal interviews. I'm I'm I'm pretty sure everybody else does, so I'm just gonna assume that.
Right, this sit down and PPI type. Okay. Let's all get dressed up and and, and talk about whatever. And so what I what I decided to do, I tried that at the beginning. I was like, god, it just isn't me. This isn't working. Right? I'm just not I'm not that's just not me. So what I decided to do, that I would go to their homes, And and 2 things with that. 1, I could get a feel for what's going on in their home better if I was at their home. Right? Because they're more comfortable.
They're we're more relaxed. They're more used to to being in their home, but also that I could show them how to minister. That I could be an example of ministering. So what I would do in those interviews, right, and they weren't really like yeah. I don't really call them interviews, but but whatever. Would be to sit down with them and just see how they were doing. Right? And it didn't have to be anything long. I had scheduled 10 to 15 minutes apart, and that's with driving.
And just kinda interact with them and then just say, hey. How are your families doing? And, well, I'm not doing it. Right? That was a lot of the answer at the beginning. Well, I haven't really talked to him or I haven't done anything. And so instead of saying, okay, well, you need to do this, you need to do that, and you need to do that. I would just invite them to do one thing. So 3 of the principles that we try to teach, first is pray for them. That's the first step.
So if I can't visit with them or I can't have any contact with them or whatever, like, for whatever reason, or I'm I I, right now, don't feel comfortable, like, interacting. Right? Start praying for them. And and let that be the first step in your in your ministering journey, if you will, right, in the process. And and then, right, then I can move from there. The next time, okay, are you praying for him? Great. What is the next step that you could take in that ministry?
Well, let's get to know him. Let's communicate with him and get to know him. And so that's the second principle that we try to teach is communicating with them, whatever that is, text, at church, different things like that, and then get to know them. Right? Learn their story. People like telling about themselves most of the time, and get to know them. Because I I can't get inspiration on how I can help them if I don't know anything about them.
Right? I I can't I can't just start from a blank slate. I gotta get to know them first and understand their situation so that I can say, okay. Lord, they're I think they need this or they've said they need this. So how can I help them with that? And then thirdly is to love and serve them. Now you can do all 3 of those at the same time. I'm not saying it's a progression, but those are the three principles that we try to teach.
And and ultimately, that that third one is the one that we want to hone in on, that I actually feel a genuine love for them, that I actually feel that I care for them. That's what the Lord is trying to teach us through ministering. It's it's can you love anybody? And in the world that we live in today, you can see the erosion of that. Right? People don't communicate with each other. If they are communicating, it's online. They're yelling back
and forth at each other. And we're not we're communicating past each other instead of with each other Mhmm. Or having a genuine care for each other. So if we wanna get back to, having a society to where we're connected and we feel comfortable talking to our neighbors about anything, then I then I have to build that relationship. And, you're probably aware of this, Kurt, but guys aren't the best at relationships. Right? That's not the highest priority on our list. Right? Yeah. Whereas sisters,
relationship is a higher priority for them. Yeah. So they're usually, just naturally better at it. So so getting them to to get past that, that's one thing that we implemented was was that. So Yeah. Awesome. It I I love these three things and just sort of give structure, to it all. Obviously, the praying praying for others, that's like, absolutely. I can do that. You know? That's a 100% in my control. And then communication and getting to know them,
that's, you know, a little bit easier. I go, yeah, I can reach out and send a text. I can maybe stop by and and get to know them there. The last one with love and serve, that's where I think it gets tough for. It's like, well, I mean, I I went over there. I asked them, like, is there anything that we can do for you? And they said no. Or or I, you know, I don't wanna, like, push myself into their life if they don't really want me to help them something.
So is anything else come to mind as far as how can, we go about serving others, when maybe they're not they're not necessarily wanting that or there's not something obvious to to do for them? So I think we have to and I've taught this in in a lesson before, and it was probably one of the more powerful lessons that I've ever taught. And and mostly that's because I saw the change in people and and referencing it. Is that we have to understand what agency is.
Right? And I and I tell the brother and look, we're not there to force ourselves into their lives. We're there to love and support them the best we can and how they will allow us to do it. So, right, I I can't come in to the relationship expecting x to happen. Right? I have to come into the relationship of what I'm going to bring to the relationship, not what I'm going to get out of the relationship or what I expect them to do as a result of my actions or my agency.
So, right, for instance, one thing that I've tried to do is read the scriptures in a different light as a parent. Over the last few years, I've tried to become a lot better father and focused on that with my kids, is to recognize that the scriptures aren't so much about a historical Nephi or Lehi, but it's about how God interacts with his children. And so therefore, there should be principles and doctrine and evidence of how God interacts with his children.
And so I started reading the scriptures differently, and I'll give you an example. We take the the the the account of Nephi going back and getting the plates. Right? Mhmm. And we've all read it a 1000000 times. Right? But I saw it in a different light when I started looking at it this way. And that's that the first time they just kind of cast lots. It's kinda like chance. I mean, they believe that God divinely, would inspire that kind of a thing. Right? That was just in their culture. So that's
where they started. They just started there. And that we see how that didn't work out. Right? And then the second was, okay. Well, maybe we can buy them from them. Right? Or we can bribe them or whatever they whatever. So they tried that. Right? Again, a part of their culture and our culture. Right? We would think we could might be able to do that. But anyways and then the third time it was, you know, let the let the Lord guide you where to go.
But in that, I I recognize we're forgetting a character in this story that we never talk about, and that's Laban. So perhaps the reason that it took those three tries that the Lord didn't guide them the whole time was to give Laban mercy, to give Laban agency. Because the Lord knew that at the end of the 3rd try, what was gonna happen to Laban? He was gonna lose his life. But the Lord in his mercy gave him 2 opportunities to choose to give up the plates. And so I began to start looking at
the scriptures differently. And I think we have to look at ministering differently as opposed to I failed to I gave them an opportunity to exercise their agency. I gave them an opportunity to let a servant of the Lord into their home or to just talk to them. Right?
And I've seen that over time as as the Lord says, right, that our job is to keep ministering to them, keep loving them, keep inviting them because you never know when their heart will change and they'll come and turn back to me, and they will be healed.
So our our our obligation or our, our duty as a minister or any calling really or just as a parent, right, you can apply all this to being a parent, is to give them opportunities to use their agency to do righteous things and let the lord then heal them and change them. Yeah. That's that's fantastic. I love that, perspective of that that story, you know, in 1st Nephi because, maybe maybe for decades, right, the Lord was working
on Laban's heart to be like, hey. Why don't you be humble and and listen to my voice? And because there'll come a time when I need you to hand over the this record to this this, random guy named Nephi, but he didn't get there, right, because of his own choices or whatever. And so it came down to it of, like, I've been working with Laban, but at the end of the day, he gets to he gets to pick the life that he leads, and he's sort of in this place of he's he's lost heart. He's he's wicked, and
he doesn't he wants to kill people. Right? And so the Lord will figure out a way that way. But, but to to recognize there's agency in this. Right? Like, Laban was his own entity that was functioning on his own choices, and that's sort of how the story ended up. Right? Anything else with give them opportunities to exercise their agency? I mean, you just talked about that, but anything else there that we need to
hit on? Just that idea of, recognize that they do have agency, that that we can't force them into this. Doctrine and covenants 121, right, teaches us the principles of using the priesthood or any power or authority. And it's interesting to me that, the first principle isn't love that's listed. You would think that that would be the first principle listed. Right? Or or anything else. It's actually persuasion. And so a lot of times we think, oh, well, I told them. Right?
Or I I said something or I gave a lecture or, you know, you you I'm sure, Kurt, you've probably seen this with your kids. Right? I've told you a 1000000 times to not do that or whatever. It's like they're just not getting it. Right? And and so I found the best way to persuade people is for me to learn it better, for me to to to, make sure that I have the spirit with me, and to live it better. Mhmm. And then show other people that this
is possible. Because if I can do it, like, I'm just a normal dude that has no idea what he's doing. I just right? I'm just trying to live this life the best I can and and and follow the follow the Lord just like anybody else. But persuading them that they can do it. I think a lot of times, it's Laman and Lemuel. I mean, they see an angel. Right? Same going back to the same sword. They see an angel and yet what do they do? The first thing they complain and, you know, say, oh, well,
god what can god do? They they had no faith. They they they didn't believe. They never believed. That was their problem. Their problem wasn't knowledge. Their problem wasn't a testimony or a witness. It wasn't an experience. It was that they didn't have faith in any of that stuff, at least that was lasting enough to change
them. Yep. You know, then another dynamic that comes to mind with this concept of agency and recognizing that those we minister have agency and, you know, they can let us into their life or not not and if they don't, it's not that, you know, they're like Laban and a
bad person and whatever. But, you know, I think another thing is not really agency, but, like, people just have different life dynamics, right, that, maybe they're they're in a really busy phase of life and, you know, people coming over to their house or ministering or, you know, them looking for ways to serve. It's like, that's just one more
thing I gotta figure out. And, I think the the trap comes is from the leadership standpoint when we as elders quorum presence or relief site presence when we sort of attach our ego to that ministering interviews number. Like, I am going to be a 100% ministering interviews person. And if this doesn't happen, then there's something wrong with my leadership. When in reality, you probably know this better than others that some people are hard to to sort of nail down and and sit down with or
have that informal or formal ministry interview. And then you get to the end of the quarter, you're like, ah, I fell short when in reality, it's like, that's okay. You know? I don't know. I I sometimes I we hyper invest in that one sliver of our our role because there's a number attached, and it's, like, in the system, and, like, everybody's gonna see it. At least that, you know, those that the powers that be
will see it. Right? So that that that comes to mind with the agency that that may mean that you're not gonna be that 100% leader on paper. Yeah. And, again, it goes back to this no shame. I can't shame myself either. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Shame is the is is Satan's greatest tool. Right? I can't I can't shame myself into, I didn't get a 100%. Like, it should motivate me, yes, right, to be like, okay. Well, how can I better connect with this individual? Right? Again, how can I administer to them?
Because honestly, there's brother in the you know, I I can never get a sit down interview with them. Right? Or I can never go to their house. So it's over text or right? But but am I inviting them to do something more than what they were doing before? And that's what the Lord right? With the with the young rich man is he's inviting him to do something that he wasn't doing before, and and obviously, he rejects that. But, but we can't let that become as if we're failing.
Right? We see things so linearly. We have a hard time seeing the all encompassing eternal perspective. Now I have to understand that my role isn't to change them. Mhmm. I'm not to be their savior. Right? I'm not to be the one who who does everything for them or right? They have
to do it with the Lord. And so I have to understand, well, even if I don't do the best that I can do, or maybe I fail myself, I would say the Lord will provide a perfect opportunity for each of his children to accept or reject the gospel. Yeah. I have to believe that. Because otherwise, he's not a loving god. Otherwise, he's a respecter of persons. Right? Everybody will have an opportunity
to accept it. And whether that's in this life or the next life, whether that's because of something I said or did or the next elders' quorum president or the next elders' quorum president. Right? I have to I have to try to be striving to help them and invite them to come closer to Christ. That has to be my goal and the only goal that I have. Whether they take that and run with it and and allow him to heal them and change them and be that blessing in their life, I
can't do that. And I can't, right, I can't control that process. I think too often, we try to control the process of the Lord. We try to say, oh, if I just do this, like, if I just pray, then he'll answer me. And it's like, guys, that's not what the scriptures see. Yes. He can answer me, and he can give me revelation. But he also said to Oliver Cowdery, all you thought was to ask me. You didn't even try to do anything to translate. Right? You didn't even try anything besides just asking.
And I see so many people that have left the church and they're like, you know, I prayed about it and God didn't give me an answer and so I left. And it's like but but that's not that's not the fullness of the gospel. That's just one aspect of the gospel. Right? Christ teaches, ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.
And I found in my own life, usually you have to do all three of those things to finally get the revelation, to finally get the answer, to finally be open enough to say, it doesn't matter the outcome, Lord. I just want what's best for myself or my family or my ministering families or whatever it may be that we just open our hearts and have that contrition, right, to repent when we need to. But that I just want what the Lord wants.
That his will will be done. I think too often we try to put the process into a box instead of let the Lord do his process with us. Because each of us individually needs something different. Like, I can't expect my experiences. Like, I can't say, well, if you just had my experiences, then therefore, you would understand like I do. Or you would have the testimony I do, or you would do what I do. Right? And that's just
not how it works. It has to be individual 1 on 1, and we have to let the Lord do his process. And and want and have a desire. Right? Doctor and covenant section 4 of if any of you have a desire to do the work, then what? Right? Then go and do and become like Christ. Right? Live the be diligent, be faithful, be loving, be charitable, all those different attributes. Start implementing those in your life and as people that really want those things, they will see that light in you.
They will see the light of Christ in you, and they'll recognize it because they've seen it before. And and the funny thing is it's in each of us. So they've seen it within themselves. They've seen it in other people. And that's what Christ is trying to teach us. Right? When he says to be the light on the hill. That, it's not about me. It's about showing that the principles and the doctrines and the attributes of Christ can change someone. And you'll have more success in missionary work.
You'll have more success in in ministry or whatever because people will resonate with that and see it. Now, again, you can't gatekeep the process, but it's the best way I know how in my own life to show other people that this does actually work. That it's not just a concept or a theology or, you know, a doctrinal belief or whatever, but it's actually something that benefits my life. And when I implement it, it has practical practical real application that blesses me.
Yeah. Nailed it. Garth, this has been really, really insightful, and and I think you're you're very thoughtful about all these principles and your approach and things. Any other concept or principle that we maybe should have hit on harder? Or what comes to mind? Anything we missed? Yeah. So some of the other things that we've principles that we try to do was we saw that a lot of people were having difficult just that initial interaction.
Right? And I think it's more so in our time that people just have, like, this disconnect, socially. It's socially awkward. Like, we haven't implemented it great with home teaching or administering beforehand, so it's just kind of this awkward phase that can happen. And so 2 things that I'd like to talk about, that we've implemented. And again, this may not work for every ward. Right?
There's there's always going to be circumstances where the principles or the things that you implement just aren't working. But, but find out what the Lord has for you. Again, it's his process. Allow him to to guide you and direct you. And so two things that we tried to do is we'd never make an assignment until we had met the person and, like, talked to them. Or at least we tried to. Right? We could 100% couldn't do that. But
that way, we got to know them. So if somebody moved in, we'd go visit with them and get to know them, and then we'd assign them a family Oh, yeah. Or or a ministering brother. So that we could say, okay. This person has right? We the more information you have, the better revelation you're gonna get. Yeah. The Lord just isn't gonna just give you all the answers. That's just not how it works. And so what we tried to do was get to know them the best we could and try to say, okay. Well, who would be
a good pairing? And that was part of the part of the talking it out would be, okay, who together would work well together? Who wouldn't work well together? Who can't we put together? Right? And just all the information and just let that sit out on the table and let that guide the process in in in giving people opportunities to serve and and bless the lives of others and try to find commonality. And and secondly, the the second thing was we tried to give everybody an active family.
Because what I found in in my time in leadership and and bishoprics and elders from presidencies in the past was a lot of times, they never saw the fruit of ministering or home teaching. A, a lot of them weren't doing it, but then when they did do it, it was just like door slammed in your face, don't contact me, you know, or like, we don't need any help or or whatever. They
had a hard time connecting with. And so one of the things we tried to make it not easy, but the probability, I guess, you could call it of of success higher. And so we gave every fam or every companionship, at least one family that they could see at church. That was there pretty much at least once a month or or, you know, every week or whatnot. That was actively going to church. That way they could say, hey, I see that person every week. Right? And that's a reminder.
Hey, I need to talk to them or I need to get to know them. Right? And that reminder, again, going back to the me not shaming them and just, hey, you guys need to do your home teaching or visit or, ministering or whatever every week or every month or whatever. Like, get your visit visits in or whatever. And but that reminder that they would see them and that they could have interaction with them, on a weekly or monthly basis just by
being at church together. Yeah. So that was one of the other things that we try to do it in in pairing up companionships. And then this last year, what we've been doing, as far as trying to build those relationships and helping them have success, is we started implementing what's called ministering night.
And so what we decided to do and and in most cases, what we'll do is if we come up with something as an elders quorum, presidency, we'll go to the Relief Society in our meetings every month and we'll be like, hey, this is what we're planning on doing. Do you guys wanna get on board with us? You don't have to. We're gonna move forward with it anyways. Do you wanna do this together? And most of the time they're like, yeah, we wanna do that together.
And so what we've we've decided to do, and we don't do it every month. So, like, we're not doing the next couple of months, just because it's hard to find people at home because the holidays and whatnot, but and during the summer because people are gone. But every month on 4th Sunday, and that's just what we decided, we'll invite ministering brothers to come with us. So I'll text them and be like, hey, we're going to we wanna go visit some of your families. Can you come with us? And
90% of the time, they'll come. Wow. And so we started this in January, and and it's just like 30, 40 minutes, and most of that's travel time. So instead of like, okay, we're gonna go in and we're gonna visit and get in the house. It's just like, just go to their door and just talk to them for, like, 5 minutes. That's it. If they invite you in and you have time, sure. Go in. Go visit with them if you can, if you have time. But if not, just be like, hey. Yeah. We're
going to visit some other families. We'd love to come back and visit you again and and start that conversation. And the first the first time we did that, the miracle started happening. I took a brother out that's pretty shy. Right? Not talkative a lot. Had a hard time, right, interacting with people. And so we took him out, and he actually had 3 families that weren't inactive for some reason. But we went to win to one family that had been inactive, and we we knocked
on the door. And we have been trying for a long time to really interact with this family. They're awesome family. I I served in the Bishop book with him. He was the executive secretary. Just an awesome guy. Always did his calling, but they just weren't coming to church after COVID. And and we had a hard time getting them, you know, at the door or contacting with them. And and he answered the door, and we just had a 5 minute conversation about life, how things were going. And that was it.
That was the experience. And then we went to the next family, and they didn't answer the door, and that was fine. You're gonna have that. And then we went to the next family. And this is a guy who who I've never met before. They've never come to church. Right? We knocked on the door, and this is kind of the conversation that ensued. Hey. Is so and so here? He's like, yeah. That's me. What are you doing here? Right? He came at it very, like like, what are you doing? Like, very antagonistic.
Like, not so much curious, but, like, why are you guys here? Right? Kind of a thing. And, right, we just explained to him why we were there and and whatnot, and he's like, well, who sent you? And I'm like, dude, really? I nobody sent us. I just asked him to come. Yeah. And yeah. And it it it was just random luck of the draw.
But as I we started to converse with this brother who who still has his records on the on the church, so he's still technically a member, we began to talk with him again just for, like, 4 or 5 minutes. But you just saw that attitude melt away to where, right, we started just saying why we were there. Hey. We're just here to to support you, to see how you're doing, check up on you just in a neighborly Christian way. And he would at the end, he expressed
gratitude for that. Oh, that's true. He didn't want to go to church. Even though, like right? Because it's not again, ministering isn't a program. It's a way of living. Yeah. It's how God interacts with us. And so, anyways, through that interaction, right, we can have a conversation. And I said, would it be okay if we came again sometime, like, in a couple months or something? He's like, yeah. Sure.
Right? It went from this, like, what the heck are you doing at my doorstep at 7:30 at night on a Sunday to yeah. That's actually a great idea how we can right? And we made it into we're just trying to be good neighbors. Yeah. We're not trying to convert you. We're not trying to get you to come back to church, and that's if that's the goal. Right? If the goal is just, I wanna get you baptized or I wanna get you back
to church. We've lost what Christ was trying to teach, and that is, no. I just wanna love you. I just wanna care for you. I wanna do what I can for you, and we've lost that in our society. And and I think through ministering, we can get that back, not just in the church, but in our society.
Yeah. I love those stories. And just the again, this all comes from maybe a more intentional way of of like you mentioned, this ministering night where every 4th Sunday, you're gonna call some guys and say, let's go visit your families and away you go. Right? So I assume, you know, just getting to the technicalities of this, each one of your counselors is also going out with a ministering pair, right, and then visiting their families? Yeah. So how how how logistically it works is we'll just
ask some brethren if they can go. It's like and and I never ask people if they're willing to go. I say, are you available to go? Mhmm. Right? Because each of us sits at the sacrament table and partakes of the sacrament, says we're willing. So I take I take those covenants seriously and sacred, and so I assume you're doing the same. And so I don't say, are you willing to go with me? I say, are you available to go and do this or or whatever? So I'll ask, you know, I'll say, who who of
my counselors are available? My secretary, who's available? And I'll say, okay, 3 of us are available. Right? And it's just kind of who's available. Again, not to say you have to be there, whatever. So if we have 2 of us, then 2 well, I'll get 2 people to go with us. If we can get both of the brethren to go, both of the companionship to go, then maybe we'll try to get another person to come and just have them go on their own, instead of us going with them. And we've done that a number of times.
But anyways, so we'll ask a few people to go and who can ever go, then we'll go with them. And then the sisters will ask some people to go in it. It can get kinda mixy because, you know, you don't want to have somebody who's going to go like the same 2 people because they might minister to the other person. Right? So they won't be home at the
same time. So Yeah. It can it can be a little bit of juggling there to make sure that you're not getting people crisscrossing, and and not finding each other at home. But but we've I found that from this experience and I asked them I asked them afterwards. I'm like, what do you think? What do you what do you think about it? And all of them are like, this is this is great because I have a hard time in, you know, getting that first step, getting
to know them or or whatever. And and so this is a great opportunity to to do that and to start that relationship. And, again, we're just there to support them. And we what we usually do is we'll meet at my house, and then we'll have a prayer and we'll explain to them what we're doing instead of just making this blind thing. Like, look, we're here to support you. We're here to help you guys in ministering.
If you guys need us to come with you, you know, whatever it is, we wanna help you and support you. And and then we have a prayer, and then we just go. And then and we found that that has, like, broken through those barriers Mhmm. Of the culture. Yeah. As well as and not just the culture in the church of having a hard time with ministering, but also the just the cultural aspect of we have a hard time interacting with people, face to face. Yep. Yep.
Really good stuff, Garth. This is I'm glad that, you're trying these ideas and that you're willing to share them, and and, hopefully, others will be inspired by this as well. So, do we hit it all? Any other, principle you wanna make sure we squeeze in here before we wrap up, or did we do alright? Just that, again, going back to this idea of teach the principles and live the principles over the process.
A lot of times people ask me, you know, why don't people do ministry or why is it so difficult? And I used to fumble around like kind of trying to explain it. And it never felt right. Right? It never it was always, you know, something vague or something that, yeah, it applied to some people, but not to everybody. And and as I've thought about that, what I've come to the conclusion of is it's really just the natural man within each of us, and it and it depends on
what my limitation is. And it goes back to the the idea of agency that agency isn't just choices, but we're also making perceptions. So if I perceive that, oh, ministering doesn't work or I don't like ministering or I have a hard time ministering because I'm an introvert. Right? If I have that perception, then I'm gonna have a harder time getting past that perception in order to to do it or or to feel like I'm succeeding at it or whatever.
Part of that interview or part of that kind of teaching the principles is getting down to perhaps what's blocking them from from ministering. They might give you an excuse, but that might not be what's actually underneath that's blocking it. And so trying to find what's actually preventing them from from feeling like they could do this. Because, Kurt, you've probably seen this in your own life, especially recently with all the hurricanes. Mhmm. That feeling of I wanna help.
Yeah. That feeling of I want to be a blessing to other people. We've all felt that in our lives. It's there. It's part of our divine nature as sons and daughters of a divine God. But something called the natural man blocks that. And it usually only comes out in those rare circumstances where it's a friend who has cancer or a friend who's going through a death, or a friend who just had a tragedy. And so that part of us is in there, and I've seen it in so many
people. I've seen it in everybody in our ward, and I know it's there. And part of what ministering does is it helps us let go of the natural man and say, I can love and care for somebody despite if they're going through a tragic experience and just in their day to day life. Right? And that's what we're what the Lord is trying to do with us is to get us to love and care for each other all the time instead of just have that feeling of love and and care when things are difficult.
And I don't remember if it's in 3rd Nephi or Helaman, but the Lord basic says, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, if I don't send death and I don't send, tragedy and I don't send war and I don't send all these difficult things, you won't remember me. You won't think about me. And and on the other flip side of that, you won't remember each other. Right? So in essence, those difficult things in our life are a reminder to us that we do love and care
about each other. Right? You take 911, you take other cultural aspects or events that have happened and how we came together and how we accomplished different things, or just recently with the hurricanes of people just pouring out this love and support to these people that they don't even know. Right? But I have to be able to do that with my neighbor. I have to be able to do that with some guy that I have now on my ministering assignment, and I hate that. But
right? The I have to learn how to love and care for that person regardless of their circumstances, regardless of my circumstances, regardless of what's happening in my life or what's happening in their life. And as we do that, that's how we build Zion. That's how we become a Zion people. That's how we turn our hearts towards our heavenly father and our savior, Jesus Christ.
And in turn, they will turn our hearts towards our brothers and sisters, whether they hate us, whether they persecute us, whether they're our own kids, whoever it is. That's what the Lord is trying to teach us through ministering, is to love one another and for it to become a way of life as opposed to an assignment or a program or whatever. Because we can change the name to whatever you want. We can change the details.
Again, it's about the principles of the gospel, especially those attributes of Jesus Christ that help us to love and serve one another. Alright, Garth. Last question I have for you is as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? So what I what I tell people about leadership is leadership is easy. Now let me clarify. That doesn't mean it's not difficult or there's a lot of things to do or there's a lot of sacrifice.
What it means is to me and what I've seen is the opportunities to serve and love others are abundant. And so we watch people come back from missions, right? We watch people after their time serving as bishop or SIC president, and we notice that they've changed, right, a lot of times. We notice that they're more spiritual, that they love and care for one another more. We see these changes in them, and yet I think a lot of times we equate that change to the calling or the assignment.
And what it really boils down to is they've been given more opportunities maybe than the rest of us to love and serve those around them. So in that aspect, it's easy to be a leader because you're constantly being given opportunities to serve and to love. And, ultimately, by doing those things, you come closer to the savior. And it's the atonement that changes you. It's not the mission.
It's not the calling, but it's the lord Jesus Christ and his atonement, right, that changes that natural man within each of us to make us become more like him. And so what I've learned as a leader is that, if I will look for those opportunities, even when I'm not a leader, I can still have that same change and I can still have those same blessings.
And so it's made me a better follower because it's helped me recognize that, no matter how long my calling is, I can always be a follower of Jesus Christ and bless the lives of other people. And that concludes this how I lead interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who
could relate to this this experience. And this is how we how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guy is doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, that's, that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And, also, if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the How I Lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see if we can line them up. So again, go to leading saints.org/contact, and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a feature How I Lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast.
Quick reminder, go watch Joseph Grenny's presentation on helping loved ones overcome addiction by going to leading saints.org/14. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.