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That's shop ringmasters.com, your go to destination for LDS jewelry and gifts with Ringmasters you're not just giving a gift you're giving a reminder of faith that lasts a lifetime visit shopringmasters.com today and save with code leading Anthony Sweatt has easily become one of my favorite BYU professors to interview. He's been on the podcast several times, and he also has a remarkable presentation about ambiguity of doctrine in
our Questioning Saints virtual library. He discusses healthy and unhealthy ways we approach doctrine, how to help others reconcile doctrine they find difficult to believe especially when we don't know much about it. You can watch professor Sweat's entire interview in the Questioning Saints library by going to leading saints.org/14. This will give you access for 14 days at no cost to watch this presentation. You'll be better prepared as a leader when you do.
So my name is Kurt Frankem, and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization and we've been growing ever since.
And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD.
They're usually that good. And, we just talk about, sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, okay, I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. This is another How I LEAD episode on the Leading States podcast and this is a calling, that we haven't done very many episodes of.
In fact, we probably should do more of these, but that is with a temple president. That's right. We talked with Brent Holliday who was the temple president just released of the Orlando Florida Temple, and, he has so many phenomenal stories. This episode is I mean, you get the price of a mission just for the the stories, the narratives he tells in here as far as how the temple
has impacted people. And, you know, when you're a temple president, you get a front row seat to some of these things to see that people coming and going every day to to worship God in these, holy edifices, and, it changes them. The temple is a powerful place, and that's why I'm so inspired by president Nelson's effort to seems like, put one on every corner in the world
and, hopefully, drive people to the temple. So, there's also a phenomenal activity he asked us to do, and it's related to motivation. What motivates people? There's there's an activity in here that that you could do with a quorum, a relief society award, a a family to help them become a little more motivated. Right? A few weeks ago, I did an episode about motivation and leadership. Is it really
possible? Can you motivate people? Well, the temple is a very motivating place and so, Brent gives us a phenomenal activity to do that. Talks about the management of the temple. I think he said 12, 1300 temple workers at one time working there with a temple recorder and, you know, how to make sure that things are running smooth while at the same time making sure that people are having positive experiences. So phenomenal episode, you're gonna enjoy it and enjoy all the stories.
So here's my interview with Brent Holiday, the former president of the Orlando Florida Temple. Alright. I wanna welcome Brent Holiday to the podcast. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you, Kurt. Now you are in Orlando, Florida, just recently released as the temple president of the president of the of the Orlando temple. Is that right? That is correct. When the Orlando Florida went into a long term closure, my wife and I were released as temple president and matron.
And are they refurbishing it, or what's the what's happening to it? They are. It is a more extensive refurbishment than they originally thought it would require, and therefore, you know, they they release this. And after a year or however long it takes, more than a year, when it reopens, they'll they'll call a new
temple president. Gotcha. So during the this time of refurbishment, they'll I mean, they primarily they mainly just rely on the temple department and maybe local authorities if the if something comes up. Right? And it's really the construction side of the temple department or the of the church that's taken over there and and that. Nice. Interesting. So I'm curious. What's the story behind being called as the temple president? That's something that not too many people experience. Oh, that is
interesting. In fact, I'll share having served as a as a state president. There's some interviews, you know, that people might get, with general authorities, and I always refer to them as a one and out. And that's what I thought we had had. We had a member of the area presidency that approached us in December, and we had what I thought was a one and out, interview because, I wasn't really in a position to serve as a mission president. And, my wife's mother was living with us. We
were taking care of her. And so it's kinda like, well, that's kind of it. It was nice, a nice interview. But then suddenly in January, we get a call from, president Oakes' office. President Oakes would like to talk to you. And so I set up a time that's convenient for us to speak to him. And immediately afterwards, when you start feeling the anxiety, okay, what's this gonna be about? It's kinda like, oh, boy. I should have chosen the earliest available time so we could get this over
because we had no idea. But, essentially, president Oakes spoke with me and my wife, talked about similar things of availability in that. And despite the fact that my wife's mother continued living with us while we were serving at the temple, he then called us to serve, what he said, full time church service, as the temple president and matron of the Orlando Temple. Awesome. And then I would imagine the process of choosing counselors is maybe similar to what you experienced as a as a
state president, but, I mean Yes. Suddenly, you can pick from a whole temple district, I imagine, of of potential counselors. Right? So how did that go? And and they do. They want us to submit names of people who are in the temple district. We went through an interesting situation where one person that we had proposed that had been approved ended up having a help situation that, made it that he was not able to serve. So I ended up, we ended up submitting
another name with somebody. Immediately when we found that out, my wife and I looked at each other and we said, let's call this other person to be the counselor and his wife. And he had just come back home from serving as a mission president. And, anyway, it was just a wonderful experience. Those names are submitted. They're actually cleared by the temple department and then submitted to the area presidency. And the area presidency is the one that issues those calls.
And then in this case, I actually set them apart and confer the sealing authority on them as part of that setting apart with a direct the type of letter of delegation that is you and you only can do this, and this is how it's done. Mhmm. And who set you apart? Elder Bowen, who was serving in our area presidency at the time. And that was basically a change from when all of the temple presidents and matrons would
travel out to Salt Lake City. We were still in the part following COVID, where they were not meeting with everybody out in Salt Lake City. So he was delegated that authority to set me a party's temple president, my wife is matron. And, and then we received all of our training online, which was a benefit because we were able to include the counselors and the assistants to the matron in the training. And they would give us times that we could sit and talk about. How are we
gonna do this? They just trained us on this. How do we wanna do this? And that was just an amazing experience to get to do that. Yeah. And so typically, like, now that we're past COVID and and more open and so all the newly called temple presidents come to Utah for some type of training? Is that how it works?
Okay. What they what how I understand that it is working starting this year, this last year, this last fall, is they all received the same training that we did as Temple president matron counselors and assistants to the matron in, the end of August, right before they began their service on September 1st. But now the temple presidents and matrons again travel out to Salt Lake City, but they do it in conjunction with the October conference.
Oh, I guess so. And they again have that meeting out there where they receive some direct, conversation and training and direction from, 1st presidency, quorum of the 12 apostles, and temple department. Gotcha. And then I would imagine it's typical that maybe a member of the quorum of 12 sets them apart as a temple president? Or No. They would be set apart before they started serving in September, so I'm assuming
that is still like it is. Okay. So where there was the day that members of the 12 set apart all the temple presidents, I'm thinking that they're all now being set apart through that specific delegation to a member of the area presidency. Yeah. Makes sense. For sure. So when you, so your call do you have your counselors? And did so did you have somewhat of a familiarity with your counselors, or were you going sort of off a broader list as you were picking and
or seeking that inspiration? Or You seek inspiration. And, on one of them, it's somebody that my wife and I knew very well, the one that we it was called after the one had a health issue. But on the other counselor, it was somebody that I knew, and I had met him on several occasions, so I kind of knew him. But that
was one of those revelation things. In fact, my wife and I went to the temple, chose the day that we're going to the temple to really pray over who should be that particular counselor, and assistant to the matron. And lo and behold, I run into him. So I'm able to introduce him to my wife so she has the chance, opportunity, the tender mercy, as we would call it, opportunity to meet him. And, that helped lead to that, yes, this is the right person to call as a counselor. Awesome.
So, your your call is set apart. You go through this training. And how would you describe it as far as, like, you see you know, as as patrons go to the temple, they see maybe a member or 2 of the of the temple presidency or the matrons, and they you know, maybe they're going through with somebody for the first time so that you're interacting a little bit there. But how would you articulate? Like, what is it that you do as a temple president or a temple presidency?
Okay. And this is where every temple presidency is going to differ. Okay. That's right. For us, we're there to bring the love of the savior to the people that are coming there and to make sure that they have wonderful patron experiences. There are those administrative things that you need to make sure run correctly. There is training that you have assistance, you have coordinators for shifts, you have all these
wonderful people to make the temple work. So you're about making the experience right and making sure that things happen the way they should. And again, as temple president holding the keys, one of us, we always worked at where one of us of the temple presidency was always there, while ordinances were being performed. So that's part of our responsibility too. Yeah. And and you're just making sure that ordinances are being done, you know, as they should and everything's
in line that way. Right? And little things will come up, and then we work with the recorders in the temples to determine how do we resolve this. And where necessary, we bring in the temple department. And and and there are ways to what there's one way or the other that you can fix pretty much anything that might happen. Yeah. Sure. You mentioned the temple recorder. That's that's, that's actually, like, someone that's hired as their employment. Right? That they're paid and given the salary
to be the temple recorder. Is that accurate? That is now accurate. At the time we were called small temples, one of the counselors was actually given the responsibility to act as temple recorder. And as temples have gone throughout the world now, I think they're pretty much filling every temple with a paid temple recorder, which is such a blessing because there really are administrative details that you need that expert. And we always brought our recorder in with us into our presidency meetings.
And having that expertise, was just invaluable head. We used him very much and trusted him greatly. Mhmm. Yeah. And I would imagine the temple recorder, they I mean, they're more familiar with, like, the processes of the church or the the temples and how ordinances get recorded and Yes. And things like that so that is Yes. They can kinda keep you in line as far as the policies and procedures go. Right? And whenever there's a question, we would ask them.
Of course, we have the handbooks and we'd read the handbooks, but there there are always things that came up or, boy, we want to accomplish this type of a thing. How are we going to do that? And we would go to the recorder and get his we had one who had a vast amount of experience in in several temples prior to, coming to the Orlando temple. So he had some great wisdom and insight that helped us a lot.
Awesome. Awesome. And is the recorder the only, like, paid position typically in in the temple? No. There are some others depending upon the temple. Or let the Orlando temple was the 2nd largest temple in floor space size east of the Mississippi with only Washington DC being larger. And a lot of the newer temples are a lot smaller. So depending upon the size of the temple and number of patrons, that determined the size of
a paid staff. But essentially, we had a couple of office workers and some laundry workers, as well as some security people, which are needed, and some maintenance people. And that might differ by temple, but, those were the ones that we had. Interesting. Fascinating. Another question I have is just with how many how many, temple workers, like, volunteer temple workers did you have at at one at one time? Our good number was 1200. And that was the number when we came
in. It was still after COVID. We had 800, which meant that we ran some pretty thin shifts. And I'd been an ordinance worker before, serving and calling us temple president, so I understood what it was like having a thin shift. Many of the small temples range from 400 to 500, maybe 600 workers, and that's enough. But you go out to Utah, many of the temples out there might have 5,000 workers in them.
But for Orlando and the way that we operated, and we did pretty much have sessions going on Tuesday night, all day Wednesday, all day Thursday, all day Friday, and morning and afternoon on Saturday. There are a few temples away from Utah that really run that many sessions as we did, but it worked out perfect for us. And that was the right amount of workers for us. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious. I don't know. I wanna ask this in a in a fair and and,
in a fair way. But sometimes as you attend the temple, you kinda get a feel for the culture of the temple workers there, how it's run. And, obviously, the temple is full of, like, administrative steps. Right? Even down to Mhmm. Ordinance steps as far as, like, you say this, and then you say this, and then you do this. And so sometimes it can this culture can creep up on you where it's all about the process, all about crossing the t's, dotting the i's, which to some extent
is important. But as a temple presidency, you're also balancing that with having a positive experience, a a loving experience for those who attend and and experience there. And sometimes they can maybe you know, they're not as familiar with this or that process, and they're, you know, quickly corrected to the point where they feel like, I think my hand was just spiritually
slapped, like, everything. So anything coming to mind is, like, how how do you manage that to a point that you're built you're you're making sure that the experience of the temple is something people wanna keep coming back to? We were fortunate because the church, several years ago, set on a path to really focus on that patron experience. And that was a big thing that we really worked with all of our workers on, and we feel that we made some progress there.
And and just a quick story related to that, I knew we'd made some progress one day when my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, and her husband had been to the temple. And after their session, they were talking to us and my sister-in-law looked and said, boy, you know, that that was just a wonderful experience. My husband and I, when we it used to be when we would leave the temple, we'd look at each other and say, what did you get in trouble for today?
But today, we left and there were none of those experiences. Yeah. And so I think that focus is there. We ask patrons to be patient with us as we strive to do it, and some workers are a lot better than than others. But I think that overall, we're finding the temples to all of the temples to focus a lot more on making that a wonderful experience. And one of the things I'll share is the leadership principle. We'll we'll we'll talk about
that a little bit more. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm definitely, kinda going past those a little bit. So let's jump into those. And and, obviously, as we talk about these principles, if if there's a story or an application outside of your time as a temple president, maybe as a stake president, or just in life, feel free to go there. But, your first principle is loving as the savior loves, seeking the gift of charity. And that's right.
I look at and and one of the other callings, we never talked about things like this, but one of the other callings I had after being released as Stake President was as a Patriarch. And I became inactive when I became Temple President. But one of the things you do as a Patriarch, you look at those blessings. You're looking at those blessings and and and I find that some of the specific words in different blessings, are key and that's what's really different from one person to another.
But you also see repeated things. And one of the repeated things I saw in Patriarchal Blessings was talking about the gift of charity and having charity and how people needed charity. And I really just feel that with the youth of today and and and the church today, that that's a big thrust. And we all talk about charity.
And even though I could talk about that, I had an experience and this is even boy, I wasn't even before I served as state president, my wife this is back in the days of home teaching, visiting teaching, and my wife was called to be the visiting teacher in this particular fairly recent convert who had just moved into our stake. And she had some needs. She needed somebody to come in and help fix up a couple of things in her apartment.
And so my wife brought me in a couple of times, and I would just kinda go with her and, you know, I'm just there. But one day, all of a sudden, this sister turned to me and said, Brent, you are the first man that I have ever felt comfortable around. And as I contemplated that and as I got to know her, here's a sister who had been by the men in her life, be it relatives, be it siblings, be it fathers, stepfathers, have been abused in about every way that might be possible.
And it all of a sudden gave me the insight. And as you work in these positions, and you'll know this too, you find out that she's not by herself out there in the world. There are many that have had very negative experiences with men. And the thought came to my mind, how can a sister like this come to understand the concept of a loving father in heaven Mhmm. When this is the type of experiences she's had with men?
I had somebody else whose husband had been abused by his father, and it was even similar in that case. How could that brother understand the concept of a loving father in heaven with the things that he had sacrificed or been through, excuse me, the things that he had been through. And I think that that's the key is we think of charity. Many of these people will not come to know the savior and our heavenly father and their love except through us.
Yeah. Another similar case that we had in the temple, we had one worker and there is this one patron who seemed to be a little bit dour. She didn't seem to have a smile on her face, and one of the workers said that she would see her and she she knew how much heavenly father loved her, but she didn't quite feel that love herself. So she prayed that heavenly father would show her a way or how to look at that sister like he saw her. And she had an amazing personal experience.
And she went and told that sister that, you know, the sister the patron came in. And she said, I want you to know that I prayed that I might see you like our heavenly father sees you, and she shared that with the sister. And all of a sudden, it was like a switch turned on, and whenever we saw that patron, she was always smiling. She was like a different person. She was her true self, but it now came out to the point that even I grew to just love her. She'd always say
hi. She was always smiling. She was always positive. And this is one of those people that was there virtually every day in the temple from morning till night, just doing a lot of work. And I think that that's true that, heavenly father, many times we see people and we might assume something about them. But if we'll pray to let heavenly father help us to see them as he sees them, we will feel that love. And as we do, the spirit will testify, what's your feeling is how I love that person.
Yeah. I mean, like you mentioned, all these as leaders, sometimes we can manage a lot of person people and a lot of personalities. Right? And sometimes you're if you get stuck in that administrative mode, you miss that person and and their worth and their you know, how how they're loved by god. And so I love that that thought of just sort of shifting yourself back into that charitable mindset of saying, you know, how can I love this person or see this person
as god himself sees this person? I may give another one. When when I was state president, I had a youth come in to talk to me. And as we were talking, they started sharing some things that they needed to repent of, and that type of those types of things that would usually come to a bishop. So as the conversation went along, I kind of said to them, you know, these are things you really need to go and talk to your bishop in
it. And they said, oh, but president, when I come to see you, I leave feeling good and I leave feeling uplifted. Uh-huh. But I don't necessarily feel that every time I go and see my bishop. And I said, well, I've been working with the bishops on that. Please give him another opportunity. Yeah. And I think we do, and I think the bishops need to do that. And in fact, I was just hearing, an interview with Anthony Swett in the last couple of
days and Mhmm. He was saying that his bishop that he received the impression that he really needed to tell youth in particular about the love of their heavenly father for them and his love for them. When people leave the office, they need to feel uplifted. And that's the real point of the charity. When the savior dealt with people, sometimes he challenged them like he did the rich young man. Mhmm. But we see him just lifting people, and and that's what's needed.
When people deal with us no matter what calling we're in, they need to feel leave feeling uplifted and feeling the love of the savior. Love it. Alright. The next principle is all about barometers. Teach us. And I'll do this one as a quick one. Okay. And let me ask you. I'm gonna throw one at you. Okay. You were in a state presidency. Mhmm. K? And you would see the report. What was the first thing you looked at?
Oh, I'm trying to remember, like, the like, the key indicator report or, like, trying to remember what was on the report. Yeah. Often, it was, like, attendance, church attendance, or sacramenting attendance? Or, yeah. I'm not sure. I'll tell you I'll tell you mine. In fact, we have a son who's serving as a bishop right now. He showed me that this indicator now shows up in big letters at the very top of his report.
But it was the percentage of members, full percentage of members, endowed members with the current temple recommended. Yes. Yes. That that does make sense. That was my key barometer. And now I served as a state clerk as throughout the years as for 7 years. And I really learned that we need to look beyond the numbers to what is this number telling me? What is it telling me about the people?
And to me, the barometer for the stake was that percentage of endowed members with the current temple recommend. And in our temple district, we had 24 temples. And and this is where and this is kind of the key point that I wanna bring out of this, in this particular leadership principle is how temples go on throughout the world will bless the members of the church.
Because in this, as I looked at those stats and we happened to be able to see this particular stat for all the states in our temple district, There were 9 that were in the court 9 stakes in the coordinating council in our temple district. And I kind of hit in my mind for our area what I sat set as that barometer of this is a good strong stake. These are the stakes that are generating the majority of our temple workers. These are the stakes that are just doing well at a different level.
And of the 9 stakes in that coordinating council, 6 of them met that. My what I just said as, this is the number that I think would be good for our area. And outside of that, let's say the other 15 stakes, only 2 stakes in the whole rest of the temple area met that particular standard that I felt was important. And they were where temples were getting going to be going in the future.
And as I contemplated it, I contemplated that as these temples go throughout the world, those leaders will be focusing on making sure that they have people who are endowed and helping make sure that they maintain that current recommend. And so I always tried to focus with the bishops on, you need to bring those people in because if they don't have that current temple recommend, that's your first warning signal
of, are they doing okay? And when they do have that current temple recommend, there's a lot of things that might not mean. It doesn't mean that they're not having problems in their family or anything, but it means that they're focused on making and keeping those cabinets with the temple in mind. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Explain it? Yeah. That's
awesome. That's really good. And I think it's you know, we get caught up sometimes in, you know, trying to avoid the numbers because we don't wanna make it about numbers, but these can be really powerful tools as far as, like, a barometer. You know, a barometer doesn't tell you everything that's gonna happen with the weather the next day or in the moment, but kinda gives you a sense of what's going on. And so maybe that'll guide you in some of your inspiration.
Read behind that number. What is this telling me about the people? Yeah. What is it telling you when all of a sudden somebody hasn't renewed their recommend for 3 months? Yeah. Yeah. It made me think of another dynamic he experienced as a temple president where you're you're visiting a lot of state conferences and often speaking at state conferences. Right? And, you know, all of us experience this, we go to state conference, and it's not a shock when the temple president and his wife is there.
And and, you know, they he usually speaks or both of them speak, and sometimes it feels like, alright. Here here it comes. Like, yeah. We need to go to the temple a little bit more. You know? Like, is there is that how did you handle the state conference, you know, talks and things? I would try to share some experiences and some of them that would provide benefits and relief The people would know that they're no different than anybody else.
There's one and, anyway, I won't say who I think the the the member of the 12 was who shared this story about somebody who is having a hard time doing the work for one of her ancestors. And it took her a year to get to the point that she felt comfortable doing that work. And after doing so, that person appeared to her. And they were dressed in white, and they had changed Wow. From what she knew them as. And there was a healing there.
And whenever I would share that, and again, it wasn't my story, but we had similar experiences. And when I would share that, I always had people come up saying, I've been struggling about this ancestor. Should I do their work? Because I have these feelings about that. I had one where it's, I don't know that I want I don't want to be sealed to my whatever it was because they weren't a good person.
And then they came back and said, but I have come to the point now that I know that that's what I need to do. And so we focused on that. Again, I won't say which member of the 12, but one of them said, if I hear you just trying to invite people to the temple, I might get up and invite you, not to not to speak anymore because that's not our role. That's the SNCC presidents, the bishops. Yeah. They work on getting the people.
We work on trying to make the experience right and get it so that they can have the experience they need. So I would share experiences of those who would come to the temple that other people needed. Let me share one of another one that's that's related to this. It kinda goes with one of the other principles that I wanna share, but I think this is the point to share it. Had a mother who came in, and her son had died, like, the day before. Her 28 year old son, the day before.
And she came in and she wanted to just go to the celestial room. Now we're asked to try to get it so that people should do ordinances before going to the celestial room. In fact, an endowed member that comes and does baptisms or confirmations, they can go to the celestial room after they do those baptisms or confirmations, any ordinance. You're invited to go to the celestial room. She wanted to go to the celestial room. And I said, sister, can can I share some thoughts with you?
I said, I'd like to invite you to go do ceilings. And then I went to section 84, the doctrine and covenants verse 20 and I said, can I quote this to you? And I talked a little bit about that. I I, then I said, in verse 20, it says, therefore, in the ordinances thereof is the power of godliness manifest. You're coming here to receive peace from something that's happened in your life.
I promise you that if you will go do a few ceiling ordinances first before you go to the celestial room, the power of that piece will come better into your heart having done those ordinances. So she did. She went and did some ceilings, went to the ceiling room, and this happens in the temple as she's leaving. I just happened to be there as she was leaving. And I saw her, and I was able to go up and say, how was that experience? And she said, thank you for inviting me to do those ceilings.
That made all the difference. Yeah. Then she said, and tomorrow, I'm coming back to do an endowment session. Nice. I love it. I love it. And that it's so true sometimes. You know, just, last week I was in the temple, and, you know, it's interesting as you you as you make it to the celestial room, it's sort of this it can be a different feeling at times. I feel like, great. Now I'm here. I could finally sit down and ponder and and, you know, pray and things.
Other times, I feel like I've already, you know, commune with with God so much that I don't feel like I I need this lengthy moment in the celestial room because it's in as you're sitting in the ordinances, as you're listening to the words, as you're pondering just in that in that context, it can do a lot of that that work, and it's, you know, like you said, it's just it's beautiful. So So that's another story that I shared in some state conferences, and I had people that responded to that.
And and then I had others that would come and say, oh, I heard you tell that story, and I realized that's what I needed. And so we weren't inviting them to the temple, but they saw, I need that same experience. Yeah. And they came and received it. What I what I like about those stories and as you share them, especially in context of the state conferences, it's you know, sometimes we are too general or, use too much hyperbole as we talk about the experience of being a member or temple
work. Like, go to the temple and your life will be blessed and you'll receive power. And and sometimes it's hard to connect with that. Like, what do you mean? Like, I walk out and I suddenly have more power. I'm stronger. Like, what does that mean? Like but I love how you articulate it. It's like, this is how it works. Right? This is the promises we begin, man. And this is why we do ordinances and not just go sit in a room, you know, quietly. So I I I think that's really helpful.
President Nelson has talked so much about those promises. We've seen it happen Yeah. In the lives of the member members, and we can testify. Come and what he says will happen. We'll see it every day when we're as we serve in the temple. Yeah. That's awesome. Alright. Next principle is serving a mission is not one of the saving ordinances along the covenant path. Your endowment is 3 questions to consider with respect to any activity we do in the church. Alright. I'm
excited for this one. Okay. And this is one again. I'm gonna I'm gonna say on this one. Elder Bednar had quoted when we were being trained. He made a quote. This is my way to kind of share what he quoted to us to make a point. And I wanna be sure that we do one thing first before we we go on to that. And that is that, when when he said a a mission is not one of the saving ordinances along the covenant path, but your endowment is. Let me ask you. What is he not saying?
He's not saying we don't need to you know, we can lower the, the the, importance of of a mission. It really maybe doesn't matter. He's not saying that. That's right. Everything we're doing with respect to a mission,
we need to do. Yeah. But I think what he is saying is in today's world, one of the ones I use is I don't know if you relate back to this, but I relate back to the days when we would say, if we can get these youth to be an Eagle Scout to graduate from seminary and get them on a mission, we've succeeded. We've done all we can do, and they're okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's not the world we live in today. And I can't tell you I've had multiple women that I've talked to over the years who said,
you know, I did everything right. I married somebody who was an Eagle Scout who had graduated from seminary, went on a mission, you know, came back. We were married in the temple, and now he's left me, or this has happened. What did I do wrong? Well, they didn't do anything wrong. And this is where president Nelson again and his message of the covenant
path has really said that. So I think the point is we need to keep doing everything we're doing with respect to missions, but there's been a paradigm shift about the importance of the covenant path and and that that will be lasting. Some will go on a mission. I've heard stories of those that come at home from a mission and say, well, I did everything I needed to do. Mhmm. Now I can just move on with life.
But I wanna, again, go back to some stories to really show the difference of what I think happens when we pay more attention to the temple before people go to the temple and get them more integrated in making the temple experience and the covenant path an essential part of their life. K. First story, one young man who came in and, like you mentioned, all people that come to receive their endowments will meet with the temple presidency matron, a counselor, or an assistant to the matron
before they go through the session. And that's a very distinct thing. There's a very small amount of information. They want everybody to receive the same information without variance. They don't want us to really go off. But as we do that, we have enough of a re an association with them to feel something about that person. So we had one young man, and and I usually tried to greet him before they went through initiatory, and would speak to him just a little bit just to greet them.
And then after the initiatory, I would take him in for the rest of the orientation and sit down with him. And there was one young man who was the proverbial deer with the headlights in his eyes. Mhmm. And so I reached over because we had the preparing to enter the holy temple books there, and we would say, hey. Did you get a copy of this when you received mission preparation? And he said, no. Well, his father turns to him and said, well, you sure you didn't receive that as
part of your temple prep? And he said, well, I didn't have a temple preparation class. Yeah. And what's interesting is after the endowment session, after going to the celestial room, I I actually happen to have the bishop, his bishop, come up to me, said, hey. Can I ask you a question? So we went to a place where we could talk and he said, you know, for the young men, we have mission prep, but we don't really have anything for the young women. And I fought a minute, and I said,
can I give a quote to you? And I just gave that quote about mission not being part of the covenant path, but the endowment is. And all of a sudden, that's with him, all I needed to say, and a light went on. Uh-huh. Everybody needs that covenant path. Mission presidents will say that they see a difference between those who have not only gone to the temple, but have actually been temple ordinance workers.
Elder Bednar again said, if a, you know, try to get these young people to serve as ordinance workers. He said if a person receives their endowments 4 days before they go on a mission, that's 3 days they can work in the temple as an ordinance worker. And we actually had some situations where that was essentially the exact case. Wow. They came shortly before they were leaving, but we were able to get them even 2 or 3 times to serve as an ordinance worker.
And if not, we tried to get them to come back and spend a day in the temple. And they found that it makes a difference in the lives of those people. Those that come home from the mission, you're hearing more and more stories, and we were this way too. Those young adults that were serving as ordinance workers created a different spirit in the temple, and they gave a different message to people.
But the biggest thing is what it did to them in their own lives in connecting them to the savior and to following the covenant path. And so I think that that's that's the thing. We need to ground people before and after their mission in the covenant path, and in making and keeping covenants in particular in the temple.
Yeah. That's that's really helpful. And, you know, I've often thought, you know, when the mission call comes, right, this the and it's it's it's fun and cool to watch as, you know, the community gathers for this moment of opening the mission call and finding out. Mhmm. And I often think, man, I wish we could create that sort of buzz for the endowment or you're going to the temple. Right? It's often sort of this side this side effort that, you know, maybe take
some pictures out front after or whatever. But, and that that because that is the transformational part of this journey they're on, not necessarily Okay. Where they're going to serve. Right? That's right. So, again, second story. I did tell you a second story. Another young man comes in, have a small association with him, but it was a different type of an association. Get him into the room where I'm about to give this very short orientation. There was a different
spirit in that room. To the point before I did that orientation. I said and I called him by name and I said, there's just something different about you. I feel that you're more prepared to be here in the temple than anybody else I have met with. Could you please tell me why? And he said, oh, I love the temple. Now this is a young man who with another group, some other young men and young women, on their own accord would come to the temple regularly
to do baptisms. Their parents weren't bringing them. Their bishops weren't bringing them. They just showed up almost weekly to do baptisms. And when he became and he and his friend, when they had graduated and were deemed elders, what do you think the very first thing they wanted to do was? Go to the temple. Right? Okay. They were just elders. They weren't endowed, but they wanted to go there because suddenly they could now perform confirmations in the baptistry.
Uh-huh. The first thing they wanted to do is come to the temple and perform some confirmations in the baptistry. Mhmm. And so they did that. Now what about young women? We have young women who have prepared so that when they're 18, they've worked with their bishops and everything so that they can come and be endowed.
We know that that's possible. You hear the church leaders talking more and more about this, and they're wanting to be endowed whether or not they're planning to go on a mission because they've come to also love the temple so much and they just want to be in that experience where they as young women. Now women can go in and lay their hands on the heads of other female patrons Mhmm. Yeah. To perform these ordinances. And it does something in their lives just like that young man.
What is different about you? Yeah. That's powerful. Love it. So are are there 3 specific questions that you referred to in that Okay. So let me take a few questions. So because of this, as I as my wife and I contemplated this afterwards, and we kind of talked about this and said, okay. I remember boy. You know, I'm almost nowadays embarrassed to say this, but I remember when, I was counseling a state
presidency and a state president. I think I kinda said at some point when you're planning an activity, you need to kind of stop and say, how will this help these young men in particular to be prepared to go on missions? I now feel that there are 3 questions, and I think you'll relate to these questions. Cool. And I need to look. I'm gonna read them here. How and and the first one is and again, it's it's not just I'm gonna use the word activity.
Mhmm. But my wife and I, since we've been released, my wife and I were called by our bishop to be what he calls the temple preparation teachers for the primary. We have a felony 10 year olds who some of them have, you know, will now this year be going to the temple for the first time to do baptisms and confirmations. Mhmm. So whether it's an activity or class, my wife and I use these same things for our class.
How does this activity or lesson bring us closer to Jesus Christ or help us to grow in testimony of Jesus Christ and of his atoning sacrifice? It's the first question we need to ask for any activity. And I used to say, once you get the activity planned and you've done all these things you think, you then before the activity happens, you stop and say, okay. How have we accomplished this? Or what do we need to tweak to make sure we do accomplish this? That's the
number one. Number 2, how does this activity help us, youth, adults, others, to prepare to make and keep the covenants of baptism, the priesthood, and the temple? See, that's the temple prep Mhmm. As they do. And then 3, and I put this one third, how will this activity help us to prepare these young men, young women for missions and for the other challenges they'll face in life. So that every activity has a compliment. Like I say, we do this with our class.
How are we testifying in the savior and and and his atoning sacrifice and helping these primary children grow in in knowing who the savior is? 2, how are we helping them to prepare for the temple and for the covenants and to keep the covenants they've made? But 3, therefore, how will that correlate into the challenge they're facing? And you've had some great interviews with some great people and some great things that are happening to help them in that way with missions and other things.
I love that. And so you would I mean, you're just saying, any of anything, any calling or anybody who's doing a function in the church could use those questions Yes. You know, to kind of go through the process of, like, are we on track here? Are we keeping the the first thing the first thing? Right? Exactly. Love it. Awesome. Alright. Should we move on to number 4, covenants, including the law of consecration?
Yes. Including the law of consecration. I'm kind of looking at our time here because why are you can I kind of take take a minute and here share a little bit or go a little bit to the general handbook of instructions? Sure. That's right. For me to do that. Yeah. Because to do this, I wanna first of all say that, you know, section general handbook of instructions chapter 27 point 2, section point 2, is called the endowment. And it starts out by saying the word endowment means a gift, and it says
what the endowment is. And then it says, and what it what are the gifts we receive? And at list 4, greater knowledge of the lord's purposes and teachings, power to do all that heavenly father wants his children to do. 3, divine direction when serving the lord, their families, and others. And 4, increased hope, comfort, and peace. We've heard the prophet talk about these, and we've heard the other general authorities.
These were other things that I would try to include in the talks that I would give at state conferences. Okay? But then it goes into it talks about the initiator, it talks about the endowment, and then it talks about the covenants that we make. I'm gonna end up focusing on 1, but I'd like to kind of read through them. 1st covenant, and this is right in the general handbook, for anybody to read and review. Number 1, live the law of obedience and strive to keep heavenly father's commandments.
2, obey the law of sacrifice, which means sacrificing to support the lord's work, and repenting with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Number 3, obey the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which means and, actually, I'm gonna skip through those, go to it, and read what that means, but it's faith, repentance, so on. Yep. Number 4, keeping the law of chastity, which means abstaining from sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman, which is according to God's law.
And then 5, keeps the law of consecration, which means that members dedicate their time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed them to building up Jesus Christ's church on earth. Now how you and I kinda gotten into contact this time was over that 5th one. Wasn't it? Oh, that's right. That's right. You've done a a wonderful session on how do we help motivate people to do things, to serve. Yeah. Mhmm. And I said, in my experiences, for me, it's come down to that 5th item there.
I'm gonna ask you a favor here. Okay. Bear with me if you're willing to do something. Let's do it. I'm I'm game. Let's do it. Okay. I'd like to say, if anybody's watching this broadcast, I'm gonna suggest that they turn it off for 2 minutes. Hit pause for 2 minutes. Okay. If anybody's riding in a car, I'm gonna say hit pause for about 2 minutes. And during those 2 minutes, I want them to if they're where they're watching, write it down.
If they're in a car, just think for the next 2 minutes, what has the Lord asked you to do to dedicate your time, talents, and everything with which he has blessed you? What has he asked you to do in your life? And, Curt, I'm gonna say, well, they're taking 2 minutes. Let you and I take 2 minutes right here, and I want you to write down things too. And I'm gonna write down some things
too. Alright. I can do that. I'll kinda look at the clock here, so we'll just take 2 minutes, and then we'll talk about that. Alright. How are we doing? I think I'm doing fine. Would you be willing to share? I mean, there are those things like I've been called to do this. I've been called to do that. Would you share some of the other things that the Lord has asked of you?
Yeah. So, the things that came to mind, and I'm sure if I'd tried this in an hour, I'd get other answers, but, this is what what came is, to be a voice in the world that advocates for his church. And another thought is to to minister among leaders. That's definitely what I'm trying to do through leading saints. And, be a father my children will remember, you know, keeping that my role as a father clear and, make sure there's good focus and an intention
in that role. So that's that's what came to mind over those 2 minutes. And I'm really glad you mentioned about to me, as I thought about this for you, your calling to do what you do here with Leading Saints has touched my life. Oh, thank you. I've been a listener for many years. Awesome. Almost since the beginning of the podcast. Wow. And if you were to ask me what's your favorite episode, I think I would say the last one
I just listened to. Good. Because every episode, I've come away with, oh, I need to focus on that, and I need to focus on that. Wow. Thank you. And in in my own life, I had something different. I went on a completely different career path than I thought. Oh, wow. And I didn't earn the money that I thought I might earn otherwise and went through some other difficulties along the way. But it put me where I could do what the lord wanted me to do, and I can see that in your life.
You've you've let the lord put you where he needs you. Well, thank you. That means a lot. And I wish you the best especially with the with the children. That's where it gets That's right. Really hard. Yeah. That leading saints thing is easy compared it's the being the dad where I struggle at times. But That's that's that's right. Yeah. I once heard somebody say, you know what, raising children does? What's that? It raises parents. That's so true. Yeah. The children are kind of on their own.
They'll have to figure it out themselves because Yeah. We'll make enough areas along the way, but, but it really does help us to become the people that we need to become. But I think the key is we hear of those who criticize the church about tithing and those things. I don't think they understand. And again, I got this is I can say this in my opinion. I think they're missing the whole point of
what the law of consecration is. Mhmm. They're not anywhere close to, you know, the idea of, anything of which the Lord would ask you of which tithing is just so small. Yeah. But, and there are also those who think the law of consecration, well, that's the United Order. No. No. The United Order was and the law of concentration is this universe of things. The United Order was one little domain in that and there are other things, tithing's a domain in that. And there are many other parts of this.
But the key here is, as you look at those who are willing to do anything, I have a good friend. She's very she's lived a she's had a difficult, difficult, difficult life. Mhmm. But she has been centered in the temple. And I'm talking to her the other day, and she was mentioning how the bishop caught her on the fact that every time she answers his phone call, she says, bishop, what would you like me to do?
Now what if every elders born president that anytime you called them or accounts them, the bishop calls them, or the bishop calls them, what if everybody in the church answered with, bishop, president, what would you like me to do? Yeah. How would your life be? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So we know the principle. We can ask if we don't think we're quite there, we can ask heavenly father. He will inspire us with those things that we need to do to more fully live the law of consecration.
And the deeper that we go onto that and we see those tender mercies and the things the Lord has asked for us, the deeper we go onto that, the more we'll feel the love of our heavenly father in our lives. Oh, that's powerful. Love it. I'm so glad we did that. That's really, really helpful. Great exercise. All right. I guess this lead us to our final one, not about what you can't do, but what you can do. One of the things I really learned is that there's a lot it's very easy to
say I can't do that. Again, I need to tell a couple of experiences at temple. One day okay. And on Saturday, we had people that traveled our temple district. Some of the even workers lived over 6 hours from the temple. Wow. So we were not open on Saturday evenings. We closed at 4:30. We were shut down. So one day and and and we had some missionaries that came with a recent confer. They showed up about 425. K?
Because the baptistry people lived about 2 to 3 hours away and had something going on that evening, they had already basically closed down the baptistry and had left. Oh, wow. At 4:30, I had planned to leave because I had a state conference that I was supposed to speak at this that evening, and the activity started at a time that would best mean I should leave at 4:30 versus 425. It would be easy to say, I can't do anything. But instead, I sat there and said, what can we do?
My first decision was it's not that important that I'd be there for anything preliminary as long as I make it to the meeting, that state conference meeting to speak. And that's all they need me for. Yeah. So therefore, we took the missionaries and that brother downstairs. I did determine that we would not be able to reopen up the whole thing with clothing and cleaning up and and checking out clothing and all that because all those people weren't there anymore.
But I did determine we could do confirmations. So we took this new member and the 2 missionaries downstairs. We sat in front of the baptismal font, and we talked about the work for the dead. And then after we did that for about 10 minutes, maybe a little bit more than that, we got some names. The recorder that was there, actually an assistant recorder, had to reopen up the day because
he'd already closed out the day. He had to reopen up the day, but he did that so that we could do some confirmations. And I think one of the missionaries, it might have been the first time he had actually done confirmations in the temple. So it was a wonderful experience for them, and it gave them a spirit. And I was sharing that story later on with some missionaries in the mission. They said, oh,
we know that person. You know how special he felt that experience was that you took the time to do that and give him that experience when they had got there and they heard of the temple's closing and all. They had no idea if anything would happen, but we did something. Mhmm. Here's a similar one. We had, it was it was on a day that we had a hurricane coming in the next day. So we decided we're closing down operations at noon. In Utah, it would be a big snowstorm
coming. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. What time? So that people have time to travel home from work before the weather starts. When do you close the temple? For us, it was at noon. Well, at about, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 minutes before noon. It was probably 10 or 15 minutes before noon. These 3 women who had come down to see a launch, over at Kennedy Space Center, which was canceled because of the hurricane, had just come to walk on the temple grounds. And they just stepped into the 4 year of the temple.
And I was in the area just checking to see if everything was closing down, and me and a couple of the other people started talking to them. Now again, they have planned to come to the temple. They were in jeans and all of that, but we have people in jeans come every day to the Orlando temple and Yeah. We teach our workers, what do you do? Welcome to the temple. You know? That's right. We we we welcome them in. And we got talking that, oh, it would be nice. We didn't really plan that we're
going to the temple or anything. Oh, it would have been nice to have done something. And I said, would you like to go to the celestial room? Oh, yes. We'd love to do that. Well, to do that, we need to do some ordinances. And so we had and one of them didn't even have her temple, at least one of them didn't have her temple recommend, so we'd lift her up, got them in the temple, got them all white dresses, got some names for the baptistery, went down, and each of them did a list of confirmations.
So they completed an ordinance, and then we let him go to his celestial room. So that something that just kind of, like, had happened in their lives had some meaning, a meaningful experience that could go with that. And I think often, it's so easy to just say, oh, I'm sorry. We're closed. You know, the time has passed. Those people have gone home. And I think we all have those things, but as we think about it, I think we'll recognize places where we said, what can I do in this situation?
And in their lives, I'm sure it was a significant experience, and that's what we wanna do. What can we do to make a great patron experience? Yeah. Wow. That's awesome. That's awesome. Any other point, principal story that we missed there? I don't think so. I I I I I will say one observation. As we and we all kinda do this. I think of elder Kieran's, quote, relentless pursuit.
My testimony is that in the temple, there are those on the other side of the veil that are in relentless pursuit to move this work forward. And we just need to open our hearts so that it will go forward. Well, that's awesome. I I sure appreciate this discussion and the principles and the stories, and, it makes me excited to go to the
temple again. So, last question I have for you, as you know, listening to so many episodes of Leading Saints, as you reflect on your time as a temple president, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? And this goes back to the first point, the the the charity, the love, the people who need to learn to comprehend the savior and our father in heaven through us.
I have been motivated so that I can do that with people so that I can hopefully portray that love to them. I have been motivated to be a better person. I have been motivated to think before something happens. How do I need to approach this so that I can be that representative of the savior that I need to be so that they can feel his love in their life. And when I make mistakes, which I do every day, I mean, we all I can talk about all the dumb things
I've done. That this interview wasn't about that. But as I make mistakes where and those times that I say, no, I didn't do a good enough job, I contemplate how would the savior have responded. So that if I ever am put in a similar situation again, I will become more like him. And I think in that, that's where I have become that better disciple of Jesus Christ.
As I think about things, there's, I have my own kind of thing here with the song I am a child of God that was teach me all that remember it was originally teach me all that I must know, and then the prophet said change it to teach me all that I must do. To me, in today's environment, I think of that as teach me all that I must be. Yeah. To live with Him someday. That we my experiences have hopefully helped me to become more like the savior.
And I share that with you in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And that concludes this How I Lead interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this experience. And this is how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guys doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area, and
that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And, also, if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the how I lead segment, reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting
their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see if we can line them up. So, again, go to leading saints.org/contact and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future How I Lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast. Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/14 to access the remarkable presentation by Anthony Sweat about ambiguity and doctrine.
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.