It seems like struggles with pornography get most the airtime these days since it is so available in modern times. However, drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at shocking rates. As a church leader, you need to be prepared. We have a library full of resources focused on this topic. The presentation I would recommend you start with is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can learn from captain Moroni to help our loved ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.
His story of how he loved his son through his addiction is powerful and redemptive. You can listen to this presentation in the Recovering Saints library by going to leading saints.org/14. Put your information in there and that will give you 14 days at no cost. I made it easier for you and put the link in the show notes or you can go to leading saints.org/14. If you wanted further insight into a come follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube or get the We Believe app.
Tough church history questions? You'd reach out to the BH Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to learn to be a better leader? Well, I'm glad you asked. You'd come to Leading Saints. That's why we exist, to help Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead by being familiar with others' leadership experiences, understand the latest leadership research, and finding a community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad you found the Leading Saints podcast.
We hope you will dive into the archives and visit leading saints.org to find out what are the top most listened to episodes on the podcast. Welcome. You're gonna love it. The good folks at Leading Saints are so busy working on next year's content. They have agreed to let me, Carlos l Chacon Junior, host what I believe will be the final stream of this year. Probably. Unless I get ambitious for tomorrow, but we'll see. There we go.
So because you come to Leading Saints for great content, we've gone out of our way to find an engaging guest full of great insight. Unfortunately, she was not available. Oh, come on. Good lord. Oh, Bert. That was good. I like this. I like this. We did, however, manage to score some time with someone near and dear to your hearts, our very own Kurt Francom. Hey. What I'm sure I'm not sure if this is the first time you've ever heard this, but welcome to Leading Saints, sir. Well, thank you.
It's, I feel like I'm at home, you know, in my own podcast here. So this is good. I loved it. I loved the the intro. So your your audition is good so far. We'll we'll see how it goes from here. But, but, yeah, you just you just emailed me, and you're like, hey. Why don't we turn the tables on you? And I thought, hey. It's the end of the year. Why don't we try something crazy? And here we are. Right? And here we are. That's right. All the vetting that that happens here at,
at Leading Saints. Yeah. The deep background check. Yep. Yeah. So, Kurt, I know we we kind of touched base on what's happening next year, so I would actually like to start there. Okay. You you know, we've mentioned some plans, for next year, but I'll I'll admit I don't know them all. I did hear, from another stream, something about, some remote work sites you'll be putting on. The BYU cruise, I know, has been mentioned as well. Obviously, I think you're still doing
some podcasts. Right? So maybe let's start there and, and take us through, like, what what you have in the bag for 2025. Yeah. You know, with each year, as I think most of us do, we we always envision it being, the the next year being, you know, better planned and organized and all these things. And then suddenly, it's July, and you're like, woah. Here we go.
And so, and and we have, other people may not realize behind the scenes, we actually hired 2 consultants, who have been immense help behind the scenes, really getting things organized, everything from our financials to, the way that our Circle community works and just sort of picking up these tasks that I run out of bandwidth for and are not able to keep up with. And so that's been really valuable, and they've helped me.
You know, we meet once a week and have a, you know, a brainstorm meeting or just get together and make sure we're on track with things. And so that's been really helpful. That's why maybe I'm more optimistic that, 2025 will be a little more organized. But, yeah, one of those things that we want to do is, and we don't have a specific name. You know, I've called these types of things Leading Saints Live before where we actually get a venue, invite people to come, invite speakers, and
have workshops. And because what I've noticed I don't know, Carlos, I've ever been to BYU Education Week, but it is, it's it's incredible. I mean, the the list of classes they have and people are so excited, but it's it's really not promoted well. And, I don't know if they wanna promote it well just because they get so many, sure, you know, word-of-mouth and that that have come for years years. Get a lot of retirees, but you get a lot that are
taking time off work to be there. And I've just seen more and more that people really appreciate not only content and not only leadership content, but they appreciate in person content where you can talk to the guy next to you and, you know, find out where they're from, what what brought them to the event, and ask questions live, have more interaction in some of the presentations, and things like that. So, and it's really easy, you know, for the most part to do is to find a venue and,
you know, and these aren't church venues. As a independent organization. You know, the church generally doesn't, want all sorts of different organizations using their building. So we would That's right. You know, we're looking for 4 or 5 locations. One of them being your neck of the woods, just south of you in, in Raleigh, North Carolina. We'll probably be I've already been in discussion with some people out there. We'll just find a venue. It could
be a community college. It could be a local college, a auditorium, a a place that you we can invite people, a couple hundred people if if that's what they wanna be, or it could be 50. You know, really, I found success in whatever size these types of events are. And, and I'll speak. I'll bring some other speakers, like people like Robert Farrell.
I mean, let's go to some of the the big speakers that as long as they're not on missions or occupied elsewhere, but some of the past guests that have, been very popular, I'd love to just bring sort of a small array of individuals. And it's not
gonna be anything too complex. We're not gonna have, like, a speaker every hour because a lot of speakers have a lot to unpack or they wanna work with the the audience maybe more in a workshop setting and and really make it more engaging so that people leave feeling like, like, I had an experience here. I I received some revelation. I took some notes, and now I can return to whatever leadership leadership capacity I'm in and, hopefully, see see benefit come from that. So
Yeah. That'll be neat. So you so those are still kind of in the works. And then in terms of I get it. You know, we'll just have to wait with, anxious anticipation to the social media accounts in terms of when that that stuff will get announced and and whatnot. Yeah. And and, hopefully, you know, since we're further down the road with, with North Carolina folks, I would hope that that's in the early this the Q2 of the year, you know, maybe
maybe even before that. But, you know, I am doing that that BYU cruise experience, which has been cool to see people sign up for that. There's still the some space left if people are still interested, but that's gonna be I I don't I think people underestimate that type of experience when you're on a ship full of 4 or 5000 Latter day Saints and, you know, we're having workshops and, you know, laying by the pool, having discussion about this or that, cultural dynamic.
I mean, I've I've had it's been remarkable. And and at first, I thought it was kinda weird when I first did it. But once I experienced it, I'm like, okay. This is cool. We gotta keep doing this. Yeah. Yeah. The ability to ask a question or be able to follow-up. Right? Because it never well, I shouldn't say never, but it it often the the the thought doesn't enter your mind until after you've been processing it for a little while and you're like, oh, man. I
should have asked this. And those types of types of events do allow you to circle back and be like, hey. I was thinking about this and, you know, kinda work it out a little bit. Yep. So yeah. Once I think once we get through that I mean, we'll we'll start planning some things before then, but, definitely nothing before April. I don't think so. Okay. Okay. Very good. So, okay. So so so the you mentioned the cruise the cruise, excuse me, the podcasts already. So anything else that you can share or
wanna share in front of you? You know, we're, I've I've I'm always mulling over these ideas and talking them with people. And so I I'll I'll state some of the things, but not with a promise that they're not gonna happen. But I want you, like, give you a tour inside my brain. Right? And Sure. Have you look around a little bit, and
you can ask further questions. But, know, one thing and I don't know if this would necessarily be under the leading saints umbrella, but somewhat, related to it, definitely in the LDS umbrella of content is I feel like there isn't, you know, the just long form interviews are becoming more and more popular in the in the secular world. You know, secular podcast world, everybody from, you know, Joe Rogan to I mean, you see it a lot in politics, right, where 2, 3, 4 hour interviews, which
seem like a lot. However, it really gives you an opportunity to dig in some to some things and and understand a person more. And, you know, bringing an author on for an hour, which is good, and we can hit this and that topic, but I always feel like I have to cut down
my questions and things like that. So I would love to, and I've had people encourage me to do this, to start a podcast feed that is more of a long form interview style where I'm sitting down with, you know, Carol Givens or former general authorities or, you know, people who maybe we see out there in the in the Latter day Saint universe and but we really don't have their whole
story or their background. I'd really love to dig in to some of these, some of these conversations and understand them as as people as Latter day Saints, because I don't quite I mean, you some people maybe rattle off 1 or 2, but I feel like, there's more of an opportunity there to do this. So that's that's one wild idea. But going coming back to Leading Saints, I would love to have more because right now, I would say 95% of the content is I find a guest.
They come in. We have a great conversation. Maybe they're an author, a PhD, a therapist. And so there's some sort of topic that we can rally around and talk about as, you know, interesting and hopefully leads people further into their research or content. But I would love to take more of, like I don't know if, like, a documentary approach is the best way to frame it.
But for for instance, there's certain leadership talks in our history that often gets referenced and had such an an influence on our culture and on our leadership culture today. For example, I think it was 1996, Elder Packer at the time went to BYU and gave his unwritten order of things. And this is a phrase you hear a lot kind of thrown around of, like, oh, so that's not on the handbook, but it's not in the unwritten order
of things. Or there's a certain way that you conduct sacrament meeting, like, you know, if if the presiding authority speaks, you should never have anybody speak after even if it's the bishop member. Like, again, I don't necessarily am on board with all these things simply because nobody's written them down. But they they still get, like, churned up in the culture of, like, no. That's the way you're supposed to do it. Like, who says?
Like, where is it written? Right? So it's interesting to see a talk like that given at BYU by Elder Packer have such an influence on our leadership culture. Or, you know, the one I I play clip from at the end of every episode is the loneliness of leadership by then Elder Hinkley back in the seventies. Maybe I think it was 1969, actually, BYU.
And when you get the full context of that talk and why he wrote it and you find out that he actually was sort of speaking off the cuff or he wasn't planning to give that address and the things that were happening, he mentions president Nixon in the talk and things like
that. So I would love to take an episode and really say, let's dig into this event that happened or this dynamic or I'm trying to think of some other ideas there, but definitely more that are episodes that are more thoughtful as far as research based or that maybe I have a team. And if there are people out there that would love to, contribute and volunteer to help us research some of these things and put some information together, in the past, we haven't had that bandwidth.
And so that would be cool to have maybe more thoughtful episodes that, getting us some component of leadership history or leadership doctrine or things like that. So, and I'll I'll just we can go into these if you want, more in detail. But so right now, we have our online community through Circle, which is the we call it the well, it's the Leading Saints community, but within that is the core leader library. And the core leader is anybody who is a subscribing donor. Right?
So and they if if you donate to Leading Saints on a recurring basis, you get access to hundreds of additional content hours of, you know, focus on specific topics related to leadership. Well, one thing that we've discovered in this journey of Leading Saints is I when I started Leading Saints, it was more of, like, I want, like, the 5 cool ideas of how to motivate people, or give me the 3 tips on having giving a great sacramany talk, which we do that and it's interesting and
really helpful and people love it. But what we found is that we uncovered this whole new demographic in the church, which is not just leaders with callings, but Latter day Saints who, at their core, they identify as a leader regardless if they're in their leadership calling, regardless if they're, you know, running the show or not. But they identify as a leader, and they want to play a role in the influence of their ward or the influence of their community or they wanna show
up differently. And, you know, this is such at the core of our doctrine. You know, we we we literally go to temples of God to be endowed from power on high as as kings and queens and priests and priests. This is right. Like, there is something we're we're not all just created that maybe some of us have opportunity to lead, maybe some of us won't. Like, no. We've all been endowed with a higher order in a higher order
to really have influence. And so, with that, we're we're sort of figuring out how to shift our our offering. Of course, we'll always, you know, do the podcast and the the leadership, you know, geek out sessions and things. But we we've recognized that people don't want to be don't just want to be a good leader. They actually want to help establish Zion.
And so there might be somewhat of a rebrand coming with, the core leader library being more geared towards, like, one, working title we're playing with is Zion Lab, Like a laboratory where people can come together and say, hey. You know, this is what I'm doing in my ward, or this is what I'm doing in in my, young men's program and and or this is what I'm doing in my community. You know?
And coming together as a sort of a laboratory sharing ideas saying, how can we not only be effective leaders but establish Zion, as we do that? So, anyways, that's there's a lot there, but that's that's another one. Sure. Well, so that all sounds, you know, really neat. And, of course, it's easy for me to say because I don't have to do it, Kurt. But we That's nice. We wish you well in in those journeys.
First, Madeline's I wanna join Madeline's question. She was asking, are you gonna do another live event to watch The Chosen at the movie? Oh oh, yeah. Yeah. Apparently, that so that no. That must have been a local right? A local fan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was cool. That that sort of went in conjunction with, my book release earlier this year. Oh, yeah. I, I thought, man, what you know, sort of trendy to have, like, a book release party type of thing, and and you kinda wanna
celebrate when you write a book. You're like, oh, man. Like, this was a a long hard effort. And so, yeah, let's celebrate. So it, it was in conjunction with when the the chosen was releasing their I think it was season 5 in theaters and showing 2 episodes at a time. And so we, booked out a movie theater, invited people to come. Everybody got a free copy of the book, and then we watched The Chosen. And I'm sure with season 6, The Chosen is going to do that. And, yeah, I would love to do that.
Maybe that's something, you know, we could do all over the country as well, but, I love The Chosen, so might as well get together and watch it with some good friends. So Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's neat. Okay. So, I know that there's gonna be some folks who are new. Right? We're all we're trying they're gonna be new folks that are gonna engage with Leading Saints, over time. So maybe let's just look back for a
moment. Right? So give us the the brief history, right, on how Leading Saints got started, and and maybe, you know, you you mentioned some of the consultants and whatnot, but who who are the Leading Saints, at the moment? Yeah. That's a great question. So Leading Saints essentially started in 2010. And I guess the story leading up to that you know, I bought the domain May 26, 2010. I bought the domain leadinglds.com, and I thought I'm gonna start blogging because that's what we did back
then. I'm gonna start blogging about leadership. You know? But leading up to that, I came over my mission, 2003. Couple years later, I I went to a single adult ward. Student ward, I think, is what we called at the time. YSA ward. We met in the I was living at home with my parents in West Valley City. We met in the Salt Lake Community College, Institute building, and, there was just a ton of awards there, the student awards that met. And, thankfully, this is this is actually the award where
I met my wife. So a lot of good things came out of that award. And, and I was called as the elders' corps president, and I had really not experienced leadership to any capacity other than I've been a district leader in my mission to maybe a couple companionships, ran some, you know, district meetings. But this was like, woah. You know? And there's sort of this feeling of, like, oh, well, finally, they asked somebody who's actually gonna try. You know? Finally, they got somebody in the chair
that that cares. You know? Yeah. That's right. And so I'm gonna I'm gonna do this, and we're gonna see remarkable results when people then under you know, my ego was just, like, raging in this in this call. Yeah. Yeah. And so I did I did all the typical
things. You know, I had had a great guilt trip lesson about home teaching, and I remember a bishop member was there and just, like, got up after and applauded my words of, like, this is what, you know, blessings in heaven will be will be stripped from you if you do not go out there home teach. Right? I spent, you know, hours in the clerk's office because back then, you couldn't arrange home teaching
or ministering in in a fancy app. So you had to go to the clerk's office, and I I was just burning the candle at both ends. You know, I was memorizing everybody's name and the director, which, you know, some of these things are good. And, and, but I was just overwhelmed. Right. And I remember I looked at the report the 1st month as far as home teaching, and and it was 39%. You know, that's disgusting.
And I remember in that guilt trip lesson, like, getting up there and writing it on the board, like, 39%. You know, this is awful. What are we doing here, people? Yeah. That's right. You know, this righteous indignation of calling them into repentance, these elders. And there was probably a 100 plus elders in this court, you know, in this Oh, wow. Huge YSA Yeah. Awards.
And, so I I went to work, you know, like, making sure everybody got assignments, making sure I I would mail the assignment to people if they if they didn't show up to church, you know, so they had no excuse not getting their assignment. And, Oh, man. And I remember the end of the month, I'm just working so hard and and, you know, just doing the thing. Right? And got to the report looking where where we have where how much higher of 39% do we go? And I calculated all, and it came up as 38%.
So I had lost a percentage point. Like, where did I go? Yeah. That was, like, my, like, reality check of, like, oh, so, like, leadership's really hard and complicated, and you can't just, like, talk at people and make them feel guilty, and then they just do things. Right? And I was elders corp president for maybe 9 months before my wife and I got engaged and married and, you know, moved out of that ward. But, I just left that experience really, like, discouraged thinking, man, that was not fun.
I tried really hard. Nothing changed. And then I was called into a bishopric soon after our, marriage and then a year or so after. And then, that bishop got released, and I was called as the high priest group leader. And I thought, here I go again. You know, this is the same role as kind of the elders' corn president. Why why do I even try? You know, what's the point? Right? However hit you at
that point. You know what? Exactly. Yeah. I can see why people kinda just coast to some of these callings. But, I remember being in trade walking through Barnes and Noble. I've always loved to read and, especially, like, organizational behavior books, like leadership books like that. And I I remember just being so intrigued by the bookshelves full of
life leadership, business leadership, family leadership. Like, there's so much research there, but nobody's really talking about it in the context of the church. And so I thought, well, maybe there's an opportunity here. Maybe I can find some of this, you know, academic research and learn about it and then blog about it. And so that was 2010 when I, bought leadinglds.com, and I just it was just like a hobby blog for years years for 3 or 4 years.
And then in 2014, and I'm I should say, like, as I was doing that research and studying things, I would try things in the high priest group that I was leading, and it was working. Like, I was seeing great success and unity. And, I was I I felt more trusted by those those men. And, you know, and I was a 26 year old high priest group leader with a bunch of 60, 70 year old, you know, people looking at me. Sure.
Sure. And and then I was served as high priest group leader a couple years, and then I was called as the bishop of that ward for 5 years and then into the state presidency. So the it's it was suddenly like I was blessed with this laboratory of like, oh, well, this is an interesting problem. I'm going to go chase that down, you know, figures, figure something else there. And then, 2014 sort of podcasting was becoming a thing. I had no idea how early I really was.
I mean, I almost felt late to the game in 2014, but little did I know how how it would explode. Sure. And, working for you, I think. Right? Yeah. For sure. So and that's really when it got some traction. 2014, started podcasting, figuring it out, interviewing people, and it was just fun to listen to these different experiences and and expertise and, you know, the How I Lead series and things like that, hearing how the other guys doing it. And then 2016, we became a 501c3
nonprofit organization. I went full time with Leading Saints with a bunch of side hustles on the side for a while just to make ends meet. And then, it's just grown ever since then. And, you know, now in 2025 just now or, you know, we're just about at 20,000,000 downloads and been Wow. Broadcasting for 10 years. And just I get emails from all over the world from people that are intrigued by the the research and the the content and all of that. That it's
I mean, that is the payday. When you get the email from a mission president in Guatemala, relief site president in Australia saying, man, this stuff is working. Like, I feel so encouraged by it. I I I walk into these roles with more more confidence, more ideas. You know, it's just that is is so awesome to hear. You know? So that's that's the general story. I don't know if I missed anything. But There you go. Okay.
So so would you say that and again, I guess, even going back to that that whole concept of the loneliness of leadership, you know, you know, president Hinckley, referenced. So but carrying this on for so many years is a challenge. Right? Like, just having, you know, that focus and particularly kind of a labor of love, right, kind of a Yeah. Kind of effort.
So is is engagement the thing that helps motivate you to get up, respond to the emails, prepare questions, right, and keep, you know, curating content? Yeah. I mean, I guess, motivation has never really been a problem for me. Like, definitely focus is at times. You know? I always I'm trying to write, you know, at least a 1000 words in a manuscript every day and and work on this episode. But, hey. Oh, there's new emails coming in or, you know, I and I have a little bit
of ADD that way. But, to me, I don't know why or how God wired me, but I am so intrigued by leadership, especially in the context of our faith. I mean, just like all of us, we love our faith, we love our culture. Sure. And, it is so intriguing to me to when I get these emails, from people saying, you know, I there's this thing going on in my in my ward or stake and, you know, I just don't quite know what to do, or there's this problem, or I've tried this thing and it works. I'm like,
wow. Like, so for some reason, God bit me with that bug, that leadership bug. And I just love diving in. And so I anticipate, you know, I am mortal. And maybe at some point in my life, I just run my course with talking about leadership. But, man, I don't feel it. It is any any time near. So I just keep going. And and, yeah, hopefully, it gets to a point that, I can you know, others can step in and do what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's neat.
Okay. Well, I appreciate that. So so circling back to some of the comments, that are in here, let's see. This is gonna be a tough one. I I think it's Amy Amy Earl. Right? Because all, like, you know, as a podcaster myself in a completely different genre, you know, all your guests are your favorite. Right? They're like your children. That's right.
But, Amy Earl asks, which and I guess, and I wanna expand that to be, like, perhaps, you know, either a topic or a subject that you have, enjoyed covering, that maybe surprised you or, you know or even that you were just tickled to death to be able to get. Right? Yeah. Like, you never thought you'd be able to talk to that person, but this has been a platform for you to be able to have that conversation.
Yeah. So this is I I get this question a lot, and it's, it's really hardly on what's your favorite kid, what's your favorite what what was your favorite month of your mission? You know? I was like, I don't know. I mean, they're they all have their flavor. Right? Sure. So, I mean, this year, I think back, and that's the other thing is, you know,
we have 800 or so episodes. It's just so hard to remember some of these episodes sometimes that, I'm sure if I heard an you know, some of the top interviews from here, 2, 3, 4, like, I'd be, oh, that one was so good, you know, but, yeah, you they they fade on you. Right? For sure. But, I just think, like, bishop, Devin Pope in Southside Chicago this year talking to him, the most baptizing ward in in America, and just hear what they're doing. I just love hearing
what many would classify as everyday people. Right? Lay leaders that are trying different things and seeing such great success, and, it the fact that it almost seems like the success is their problem, you know, where his word is bursting at the seams, and they can't split the word or get a language word going fast enough. You know, and I sit down, and I'm recording with people like Kurt Brown, and it's just like, wow. What he's saying is so helpful. This is a really special
episode. I pray that my recorder is still going. You know? And, so but as far as topics, I just, I'm intrigued by, man, just, for some I'm I've turned into somewhat of a therapy geek, like, understanding, therapy modalities and thoughts and, everything from addiction to, codependency to, you know, just the reason why we tick as people is so it's so hopeful to me, when because I, as a leader, can get so discouraged with people of, like, why do you act like this? Why do you sin
like this? Why why don't you just live your life like me? And then I don't have these problems, so just do what I do. Right? Sure. But to then realize, oh, actually, there's maybe something deeper. Maybe there's some some trauma in their past that I have never experienced or or, you know, there's certain talents or abilities I have that they don't or vice versa. And so we just live our life differently. We live the gospel differently. And so that brings up so much empathy and encouragement.
And, so, yeah, I terrible answer to the question, but it's sort of an impossible question. So there you have it. That's fair. Okay. So in terms of topics, right, and other things, so this is the Madeline, question again. So summary of topics. And I guess I would even kind of break this out into so I know on the the website, you know, leading saints.org, you can go through and you could be like, okay, well, I have
this calling account, start here. I know we've talked about perhaps morphing that into, something a little bit different in the in the future. But in terms of, how you would suggest people navigate 800 episodes of content Yeah. And kind of finding what they what they want, is, is there a better answer than just leading saints and then the topic in Google? Or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and I think you alluded this to in an email about using AI for some of this. Right?
I and that's you know, I use AI every day with, all sorts of tasks and things, and it's remarkable, the capacity you can do. And, yeah, that's one thing I would love if there's smarter people out there that can help me figure out how to, connect an AI engine to the leading SANES catalog and episodes and things because I know
I know it's possible. And and so I would imagine the next year that just being more of a norm, especially with podcast, because every every podcast is struggling with this this problem. Because it doesn't matter how much, how how it doesn't matter if you transcribe the episode, you tag the episode, you write a summary for the episode. I mean, you try and give as much out there that search engines can ping and hit on and, and websites. And it should be easier, but
it's just not. And so I recognize it's it's really hard to navigate some of these things, but, hopefully, we can and and it really comes down to either artificial intelligence or organic intelligence, where if I have people who could sit with an episode and be like, oh, you know, this is a there's definitely 10 minutes here. They talk about sacrum meetings. So I'm gonna, like, tag that and put it in the catalog, and then then it will, like, take you to
that exact minute marker and things. So I recognize it's a little bit difficult of meant to me the best way is, you know, going to Google, typing leading saints with a a a term. And so, Madeline, if you go to leading saints and type Deanna Murphy, you will find that episode, that you're talking about. It was Deanna Murphy that she talked about, it was during COVID about teaching online and breakout rooms and things
like that. It's a phenomenal episode. So I don't know with your with the regardless with your technical expertise, like, what how would you respond to that, or how would you coach me on dealing with databases of content like this? Yeah. That's a that's a great question. And this we're we're gonna get technical here just for a second. What what what do you use for your, like, your website? Your is it WordPress? Or WordPress. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the correct answer is, I don't know
the WordPress integrations, right, to do that. Yeah. But I but I would be imagine that there are, you know, plenty. And in fact, I will ask I will ask and, and see if I can find know. It might be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Which then kind of so leads into, right, maybe the the idea, the question of so if you wanted to engage or how you go about selecting, right, topics and things that you want to to to interview or or find more. So this is the Helaman's army question.
Right? So in terms of either giving you feedback, or topic suggestions, how do you wanna curate, some of those pieces? And Yeah. This this question here, you mentioned that people who see themselves as leaders without a leaf are calling. How do you find and reach out to those who would be willing to be on your podcast? A variety I mean, I get, probably a dozen half a dozen emails a week from people saying, hey. You should check out
this guy or this person. You know, that helps a lot with our how I lead segment, which we publish every Wednesday. That's where we want, you know, the everyday people and just hearing how they how they lead and things like that. I'm always trying to sometimes, Deseret Book has been a good resource as far as with authors. They have a natural turnover like any company with their employees, and so Sure. Sometimes I'll have an employee that's really you know, they'll
email me and say, hey. These 10 books are coming out in the next, you know, 3 months. Do you wanna interview any of the authors? And that's been really good. I need to be more in touch with them, but, you know, I'll see a book come up or I'll read a book. Like, right now, I'm reading this phenomenal book. Just started it called the the other half of, what is it called? The other half of church. And they talk about spiritual development in the context of your of neurology and your brain and
how we often approach. I see this so much in, in our faith where we approach, like, come follow me from such an intellectual basis. Right? Let's just sit down with a PhD and talk about what does this word mean in Hebrew when in reality conversion often happens on the right side of the brain in a in a more creative fashion. Right? And so that's so intriguing to me. So I'll read that as I'm reading that book, they're written it's written by 2, I think, evangelical Protestant guys.
But I'm already like, I gotta reach out to these guys. I gotta get them on the podcast. I really wanna dig into this. And, so authors that way or therapists will reach out. This is another thing that I hope to do, more 2025 is revisit some of our virtual conferences we've had and kinda do a a new fresh run through on them, you know, as far as the new research out there or if there's other speakers that should be included or inviting some of the old ones back to do a new session.
And so I guess a lot of it was with I'm just always always looking. So I I and people email me, and I appreciate anybody who emails me, even those that say, you know what? I think I might be a pretty good guest on your on your podcast. And I don't some people are hesitant to do that, but I don't I don't know why. Like, let your light so shine. Right? So, even the way you did, Carlos, with this
is that's great. Like, yeah, I would this would be a lot of help to have somebody interview me, and talk about Leading Saint's stuff because sometimes I feel like I'm just talking to the wall in my in my home office here, you know? And so, yeah, reach out. We need, like man, another there's so many so many tangents, but this is there is something in our culture where
we go to covenants or I'm sorry. We go to temples to make covenants to give to give ourselves to the kingdom of God, and then we go to church and and make jokes about how we don't wanna give ourselves to the kingdom of God. Right? Like this, oh, I'd never wanna be bishop. You know? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, do something serve, like, well, it's not my place. Like, you went to the temple. You know? It was just a tall soapbox I got.
And so if there are people out there who can contribute Leading Saints, like, reach out or if you're doing your own thing or you wanna start a podcast or if there's a way you can contribute, like reach out or you have an idea or, you know, there's a there's so much there. So a concise answer is like, yeah, people email me. I'm always just, like, constantly searching for resources. I'm inviting old guests back. You know, it's fun to have Dan Duckworth on and Ryan Godfordson,
Tony Overbay. I'm always trying to kind of keep them circling back and we always find something to talk about. So anyways, hopefully, that is what am I missing in that question? No. I I think I think and so you'll so correct me, right, if I misspeak here, but I feel like you're open to people helping you in in any way that they can. Right? You've actually mentioned some technology components.
Yeah. Obviously, content is gonna be something, but even, you know, assisting and organizing some of these live, you know, type events. Mhmm. Very so very simple, perhaps. Right? But by small and simple things are great things come to fast, and so sharing the content. Now, I myself came to Leading Saints because I was a big fan of a college football coach, and that's how I ultimately found Leading Saints. But as I started talking with other people, I'd be like, oh, yeah. I
know about Leading Saints. Oh, aren't they great? Or or and I would share that. I would share specific episodes based on a conversation we had. They'd always come back and be like, oh, man. That was so great. Thanks for sharing that. Right? And they kinda dig into it. So I think there are multiple ways in which you can contribute.
So if you don't want to engage Kirk, right, sharing is caring, right, all the way up to drop him a line, right, give him some feedback, and then, you know, the the leadership team can decide to go from there. Yeah. Is that fair, Kirk? Yeah. That's awesome. That's really
good. And that's what I came came to mind as you were talking there is, so I get so many emails from people saying, I wish you could do some more content on, I don't know, insert issue, like, how to do ministry interviews or how to lead the youth or, you know, how the bishop can best work with the young woman's friends or whatever. And I'm like, okay. Well, like, do you know somebody I could talk to? Like, I don't just I don't see the topic and then go
find the person. I typically find the person, then we find then we realize they have an answer to the topic. And so, yeah, just keeping having everybody's ear to the ground as far as, like, alright. This leader that I'm seeing in my stake is something special. Like, and another thing that's helpful is if you if you approach them first and talk with them and saying, hey. I would like to submit your name to Leading Saints. I don't know if anything will come of it, but
are you okay if I do that? That's much easier than you coming to me, and then they have some strange podcast boy that's emailing him saying, no. Please will you come on my podcast? And they're like, who are you? Like, I don't you know? So, it helps if they if if you kinda help them can help them get convinced to be on the podcast. Sure. Which then so let let's jump into it, and we and then you this is gonna be one that you can edit if you need to later.
But the so so one of the questions, was, like, right so what do the Brethren think about leading saints? Right? And this is this is this, like, hey, are we delving into territories that we that we shouldn't be? And and I know that you've, you know, even talked a little bit about priestcraft, you know, and, like, hey, That's not us. Right? Yeah. Now don't don't think of me too poorly, Kurt, but that's you know, like, my very first interactions, I was like, is this like, what? How do I feel
about this? Right? And like, what's going on? And so, there is, for whatever reason, right, because I I've experienced it that, like again, right, is this okay kind of a thing? And I guess let me let you kind of address that, and then I I have a take. So Yeah. So what are the brethren think about Leading Saints? Well, I guess if you mean the brethren as in the corner of the 12 and first pregnancy, I have no idea. I don't talk to them. I would imagine files that have to reference
to you currently? No. And I would be like, if somebody saw them or related to them and said, hey. Have you heard about Leading Saints? I would be shocked if any of them said, oh, yeah. I've heard of that. Or I vaguely think I've heard I gotta be shocked if they've even vaguely heard of it. Right? But, so but as far as our relationship with as the leading saints in this institution in relationship with the church institution, we are, I would say we have a very good relationship
with the church. We are what they frame as a independent advocate. And so, I'm, you know, communicating them with them regularly. You know, the for example, the bishop pope interview came because someone in the communications department reached out to me and said, hey. I found this. We we're aware of this bishop in South Side Chicago. You may be a good guest. And I was like, yes. Let's do that. They made an email introduction and lo and behold, he's on the podcast. Right? So and I get that,
you know, I've mentioned this before. Leadership is such an interesting topic in our in our culture because every I mean, who doesn't write a book about the atonement of Jesus Christ or about some doctrinal dynamic, and they're just like, oh, good for you. You wrote a book about our the core of our doctrine and theology, but then someone starts talking about leadership. It's like, wait just a minute, buddy. What gives you the right to talk about leadership? Right?
And I don't know. Maybe it's my temperament, my personality over the years, like but, you know, we've definitely, you know, built that trust with the church. Again, I I don't claim that we're endorsed by the church or any of that. I would I would never claim that, but, obviously, we have communication with the church. It's very positive communication. I get nothing but encouragement from the church. You know? And, again, these aren't
the brethren, you know, per se. But, again, they've got they're not worrying about podcasts about leadership at this point. And and, again, I could take a left turn and really make this a headache for the church. Right? But, you know, I'm I consider myself an orthodox faithful member of the church. I'm not looking to do any damage to the church or, and I and I talk with, you know, in private settings, I talk with a lot of members
of the church who are very frustrated. You know, they there's a lot of tension there. I try and hold a lot of space for that, and I could lead out of, like, let's start a campaign to get this changed and this policy. You know? It's like, no. That's not that's not what we're doing here nor, would that be helpful. And, you know, so, hopefully, that answers the question. We got great relationship with the church, and I'm always
straightforward with them. Like, the day you want this to stop, you just let me know. I'll let everybody know that you asked me to to shut this down, and we'll move on. You know, that's fine. But, I think there are things that leading saints can do that the church can't do, and people
sometimes have a hard time believing that. But just the the structure of the church, the purpose of the church, the the politics of the church, you know, the public relations, I mean, the church if the church funded and and produced a podcast like Leading Saints, like, there'd be newspaper articles about so and so said this on this on the church's podcast. What
does that right? And so there is there is strength in independent advocates like Leading Saints, like Scripture Central, you know, like More Good Foundation, North Star. Like, there's a lot of members don't realize that I'm just one of many, and then I say, I, I mean, Leading Saints. It's just one of many organizations surrounding the church that are, you know, trying to help the church and move their mission forward and things like that. So yeah, hopefully, that answers the question.
Yeah. And I and I hope that that so, like, in my experience is that as you get in there and then you start leading to the or learn listening to the content, right, it will become immediately apparent that what the intention is and, you know, and and how it can be beneficial. I think, you know, having being able to have those conversations in kind of non threatening ways, but also admittedly, right, kind of outside of the thou shalt do this Yeah. You know, approach is also helpful. Right?
Because then you get to kind of pick and choose, and, we believe in, in in following after good things. Right? And, like, the spirit will then kinda work on you. And as you educate yourself and expose yourself to different ideas and whatnot, then you can, you know, make your make your choice on on how you wanna, incorporate what you what you've learned or what you've heard. Lily says, pretty sure president Nielsen has listened
to what at least one episode. Because I did, interview her president Nielsen's daughter, Marjorie, and I would hope that she'd pass along the link, but we'll see. So There we go. You got yeah. All it takes is 1. Right? That's right. Okay. So I want to get into, I guess, a question, and this is this is, you have said and I'm paraphrasing here. I'm not trying to I'm tryna that is not gotcha. That's not a gotcha question. I promise. You can you can try it. We'll see if I can do it on my way out. So
let's see. But, let's see. Where did I where's my question all of a sudden? Oh, yeah. Okay. So in several episodes, you you have mentioned, right, like, we don't wanna give the formula for how to implement x y z concept. Right? Yep. So I, but I and it always feels like I'm left waiting for, okay, well, what what is it that you want us to incur? Yeah. Is and so my maybe my question is is, a lot of the a lot of this tends to to evolve around implementing change.
Right? Or, you know, either changing your thought process or changing how you approach a problem, you know, changing cultures talked about a lot. Right? Things of this nature. So, I'm interested. Right? How do you go about because now you're another sworn president again, right, for the the second or maybe 3rd time, who knows? Right? Because high priest group leader, you count that. So how do you go about implementing change? Now, you can you know, the answer might just
be like, oh, just go do it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm also interested in hearing how do you balance that with the the principles of counseling with your councils? Yeah. Yeah. So, there's a few things that come to mind here is, I see this come up a lot. Individuals and, trying to think what setting. But the point being is that a lot of people want
the 5 step plan. Like, okay, like or or and I've seen this in live settings where we'll have a guest a really dynamic guest speakers talking about some principle, and someone will raise their hand and say, wait wait wait. What did you say? Like, how did you phrase that question? And they want, like, I just need to go to my bishop and tell me exactly what I should say. Just and I'll write it down here, and I'll just go say it to him. Right? And they're, like, okay. Well, then they'll tell
them and do the best. And so the human nature is we want, like, the 5 step plan. Just give us the road map, and I'll go do it. Right? However, one thing that, I've learned so much, especially from Dan Duckworth and and others, is that leadership effective leadership comes from a place of character, of of identity, of who you are, not necessarily from a tactic. And so I could tell you what to do and, even and I do share those things, you know, in in Elder's Quorum, things that I've
tried and do. And and you can go do them and, like, likely they'll work. However, you also need to figure out how how can I develop myself as a person, as a character, How can I further my being so that when I show up, it doesn't necessarily matter what tactic it is? This is the way I'm showing up that feeds into that I set I suddenly have a a response to this problem or that problem, or I'm more likely to raise my hand in a meeting and and disagree or try something new even though it's
likely to fall on its face. Right? And so I know that's that's all very vague. And this is the tricky thing about leadership is it's not about tactics even though they're fun to talk about. And so Sure. That's why I stress so much of, like, the men's retreats that we do or the the leading saints retreats. And we're still trying to figure that out a little bit.
And that's what we're you know, what we wanna accomplish with some of these as we kinda go on tour and and we don't wanna create just a conference that people come and take notes, but a place where people can talk with one another and and have an experience where they leave there and they're they're changed as an individual, not just intellectually. Right? And so it is fascinating if ever if anybody ever gets a chance to, like, come to, like, the the Warrior Heart men's retreats we do,
on paper, it shouldn't work. Like, I could show you the the agenda, and this is partly why we don't show the agenda as people look at me and they're like, that looks boring and stupid. It probably would be a waste of my time. I'm not going. But when they come, by the end of that those 3 days, it is remarkable how they've changed as in character, and they're ready to return home as different beings, not just smarter beings.
Anyways and and then, oh, then talking about, like, culture change, maybe get me back on track with your question. But that that was a caveat I wanted to answer. Or Yeah. No. No. So yeah. So in terms of, like, how you do go about trying to implement some of these things, like, you you don't want the 5 step plan. Right? So then how do you perhaps decide, okay, here's what I wanna do. Yeah. Or here's here's my idea. But I have this idea versus, you know, counseling with my counsels.
Because, you know, unfortunately, not every idea that comes into our mind is a good one. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is and this I maybe don't have, like, a polished answer for this, but I'll we'll just, see what comes out here. But, the this is sort of the journey I'm on with, being an elders quorum president. Right? I I've been the color commentator guy on the podcast for so long when it comes to leadership,
and now suddenly I'm on the court. I'm on the field, and I've gotta make that first down or whatever. Right? Like, it was so easy to talk principles and critique from the sidelines or from the the radio booth, but now is it actually gonna work. Right? And and I'm I'm intrigued by it, and it's it's fun to do that. And so for the last 3 or 4 months, I've had my opportunity to do those things I've been preaching and wanting to do. And for the most part, I'd say it's been extremely successful.
Right? But now to a point I'm thinking, okay. This is this has been the Kurt the Kurt show or the Kurt Frankem show for the last several months. How can I how can I begin to loop in my counselors? Right? And then once I loop in my counselors, how can I begin to loop in, the whole the whole as a quorum? Because right now, everybody up to this point, I feel like, has been, like, along for the ride. Like, this has been great. Like, keep doing it, Kurt. Like,
I love coming to Eller's Corner. You know, I hear the sisters say, like, oh, my husband talks about Eller's Corner, how much he's loving. I'm like, great. We're doing something. But then 2 week 2, 3 weeks ago, whatever, I invited my counselor. I said, this lesson is yours. You go with it. Now he was he was much more prepared because he had seen me model an effective core meeting up to that point. And he somewhat followed the same model, but tried some some of his own things. And I was
just like, great. This is wonderful. So now he's developing. So the culture is shifting because I've modeled something. People have had an experience. They they they're more likely they felt more safety to be, like, in the room and not sit towards the back saying, this is getting weird. Right? And so now as as we're counseling together, I'm I'm open I'm much more open to any ideas now that they've seen not only me succeed, but they've also seen me fail.
Many parts of them, like, that didn't really work. Right? And we've talked about it. And so, as far as, like, shifting culture, I think there is, you know, to start with, there's this component of you have to go you have to find the edge of the culture and push on it and see how hard it pushes back. Right? Because I could do something really crazy and be like, actually, we're gonna hold elders in a different building, and it's gonna be on Wednesdays, and we're gonna
eat ribs instead. And people would be like, what are you doing? Right? Like, and so but you have to go to the edge of the culture and push on it and see how hard it push backs. And what you'll often find is it doesn't push back very far. In fact, they there's nothing behind it. And so you can take a step further in starting to change things. And and I hate to say it's change for chain's sake, but there needs to be some type of disruption, a shock factor. Right?
And and the elders in my quorum feel that when they when they come, they feel this, Okay. We're not sitting in the in the lines and there's no one teacher. Okay. Like, I'm intrigued. What's gonna happen next? Right? And, but now we're starting to get into a rhythm and a routine a little bit. But then I'm also doing a weekly gathering at my home every Thursday Thursday night, and that's sort of been a new component on testing and trying some things.
So, anyways, that's I I don't know if I have a solid answer, but what does that help, or what what follow-up question goes to mind? So I guess the well okay. So I guess my question would be then is, what makes a good, what makes a good college try? Right? And, and versus, like, okay. This is just gonna take a while, right, to kind of kind of kind of set in.
Right? Yeah. Because because maybe you could try something and it and you feel like how that didn't work or people, Almost going back to the, Bishop Pope's episode, right, that I have a different question on. But, you know, his he kinda went through that process of, like, hey. We just want a different idea. We're just gonna throw these activities, and he mentioned, like, the the cups. Right? And he's like, nobody liked that. I you know? But then Oh, yeah. Yeah. They come across really well.
Didn't work. Right? So it could be easily be like, oh, well, that didn't work. So therefore, you know, let's ditch the activity idea. Yeah. Versus, like, I just have to find like, this idea is good. You have to define the right ingredients to put in here. Yeah. And I guess that's a little bit of my marketing background. I you know, I hear so many people like, I see a lot of online platforms. They'll ask they'll they'll
survey their audience. Hey. Do you think we should we should create swag, or you think we should do this or that? And I I look at it and be like, why don't you do it and just see how they respond? Or if you make swag available and only 2 people buy it, just refund those 2 people and say, that didn't work. We're not doing swag. Right? And that that is why Leading Saints really doesn't have swag.
Nobody bought it. And, so, yeah, there's this thing of, like, you're setting a culture of, like, we're gonna do something different. Right? And in fact, should've announced this. Like, I'm breaking some rules, but what I'm do I'm not breaking rules. How I see it, I'm using the keys of authority I've been been, set apart with. There we go. And in elders quorum here in 2 weeks, I'm, guest
speakers going. That's that's it. The I'm having somebody come, tell their story about recovering from, sexual addiction, and that's it. And now what about the general conference talk? We're not doing general conference talk that week, but you're supposed to. I guess so, but
they can release me, I guess. Right? So but I am, I'm in a cadence of like, we got to try something different to engage these men, because I know if that person comes and tells his story, there's 4 people with similar stories in the room, buried in shame, who then begin to raise their hand and say, wait a minute. Well, how does this work? You mean there's hope for me? Right? Right. So, so, yeah, to me, it's just you just have to try some stuff in in. You can't be afraid of that failure.
And I just sort of play it off a lot like, okay, that just didn't work. Or what feedback did you see? And oftentimes they'll say, actually, it did work. But here's 1 or 2 things we could adjust. I think we should keep doing it. I'm like, oh, okay. That's where the power of that counsel comes in. Right? Because it gets you outside your your own perspective.
So There you go. Yeah. Oh, so it is, I think amazing that you even like, having that idea of having a guest speaker is, like, breaking the rules, like, which again, maybe things are just different in Richmond, Virginia. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is it is interesting that, ultimately, you're trying to do what you feel like is best for your quorum and, you know, and I think sometimes that this is where a leading faith, I think, is valuable in the in the sense of just being able to
connect with other people. It's like, hey, I've tried this or, you know Mhmm. These are things that that I've done and it's it's okay to do that. I think, you know, with the ongoing restoration of the gospel of the church. Right? We're we've seen some hey. Let's shake it up. Right? Like, let's, you know, let's try a different approach. And, so why wouldn't, you know, why why would be be constrained? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I'll give you another
example. So like I mentioned, I've been every Thursday night, this is the sweet spot for elders court. Thursday night, 8:45. The young families, they put their kids to bed or they're near there. So the wives, you know, don't have a problem with it. The husband's sneaking out. It's a little late, but, like, that I get so much more of a response for Thursday night, 8:45. Because tomorrow's Friday. I can be a little tired at work
or whatever. And I invite men over to my house for about an hour and we get, anywhere from, I don't know, 7 to 15 men from the quorum to come. We have about 25 to 30 on Sundays in a quorum meeting. And, and so I tried some things. At first, we we tried to watch this video series, but, you know, it's late. I felt this, felt like men were more interested in talking and socializing little bits. So I thought, okay. Well, I I I I'm not gonna do the movie every time, so I'll I'll shift
that. And then I just did one where there was no agenda, and we just talked. And then I did another one where a a guy who's, like, super geeky about 3 d printers and has, like, 4 printers and, you know, builds all sorts of cool stuff. He brought all the stuff over, and the guys were just like, wow. Like, asking questions. Oh, I've done this and that. Like, okay. Now we're doing something. Right? So you're just constantly trying different things
and seeing what works. But I think the trap is when you try and just do what the last guy did. Like, well, the last guy did, you know, they had, they had 2 set apart teachers and, and they would just trade off every, you know, every other elders quorum to teach. I'm like, no. We're not doing that. And and it's been and we do the conference talk to be be clear, but what we do is we
have far. Right, man? Yeah. We have 4 people that come prepared to share about a conference talk, and then we break up in 4 groups and have a small discussion with those 4, those 4 facilitators. So we're not, like, totally off the reservation, but we're trying different things. You realize you have a lot of wiggle room in there to to discover some remarkable things that shift culture for the better. Absolutely. Honest. Excellent. Let's see.
We let's see. Just to kind of wrap up, but I'm not sure, Kurt, I'll be mindful of your time. I've got time, so we can keep going whatever. Okay. So here we go. So then I will so Sam asks about I I don't know that I realized that you're is got disappointed on you under you. Was that that was published under the Leading Saints label? Or Yeah. So Okay. That is one of our long term our long term ideas or efforts is that we want to have a, like, a publishing arm to
Leading Saints. And so I've and I've talked with people at Desert Book. Like, why don't you publish leadership books? And they don't really know why they don't. But it is, again, it is sort of the same thing. Do it. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But I I wanna go into a desert book because, you you know, you go into the church bookstore, there's they got the missionary section. Oh, you know, I got a missionary. Look what's in here. They got the come follow me or Sunday school. You know? They
got the the doctrine. Right? And so there needs to be a leadership section in there, especially in our lay leadership faith tradition. And so we want to kinda be, the trailblazer of leadership books. And and and even with the fact that you look at so many dynamic leadership thinkers and authors from Liz Wiseman to Greg McKeown and, you know, Stephen M. R. Covey. The list goes on and on. And I would love to be able to approach,
you know, Greg McEwen and say, okay. You wrote the Essentialism book, but what if we did it, what if we wrote a version for Latter day Saints or for church leaders or, you know, those types of things? And, you know, they may be intrigued by that, say, oh, you know, and they usually when I interview these type of people, they're excited that I get to share my research in the context of the church I love. Like, yeah. Absolutely.
What what can we do? Right? And so, yeah, that book is just got disappointed to me. It was technically published under the Leading Saints label. So But that's why. Right? Yes. So then the other here's the Sam's question then is he wants more. Sounds like Sam wants more. Yes. And he's like, when he's like, oh, it took you 3 years to write this book. Every time we can get it, like, the next one in 18 months. Right? Right. Right. Right. And that's that is my hope, actually.
I'm hoping by fall of 2025, I'll release my next book because I did learn a lot, and it shouldn't take quite as long as that book did. So the manuscript I'm working on, the working title is, men in elders quorum, and, I'm writing a book about the masculine experience, in our faith. So, which is, deeply needed because if you look at, like, the broader Christian world, there are, like, hundreds of books for men in just the general Christian world.
And there's I don't know. I'm maybe there's 1 or 2 about priesthood or something you could find out. I think, Robert Miller has written a few books about priesthood or holders of the priesthood or something. But, really, there this is a gaping hole. And, you know, as I've talked about that, if we can figure out elders quorum, it would do more for a ward than fixing any other organization or improving any other organization.
That's that's my belief anyway. So I'm gonna put it on paper and see if I can argue that belief. So There we go. Okay. So it sounds like there is something but I think you said to 2026 or what? No. So fall of 2025. I hope to release that. Yeah. Sam, right, you'll have a a Christmas present for That's right. For next year. Right? That's my hope. That's my hope. So okay. So let's see. So the the the scriptures are full of what I would call we probably coulda handled that better situation. Right?
Right? So from Moses and the Rock, Joseph in 116 pages, Peter in the bank of the taxes, to the Martin and Willie handcart companies. Right? Yeah. So why do we as modern leaders, and congregants, for that matter, right, have sometimes weird standards. I don't wanna say impossible. Right? But we have kind of a certain, like, hey. You gotta be, you know, picture pixel perfect, right, standards of leadership. Where do you where do you think that comes from? Where does it come from? From the yeah.
Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, I I, definitely, just from those you know, I hear individuals say things and, you know, bless their hearts. I always try and avoid be overly critical of those who've left the church. Right? And I I try and empathize and understand and those things, but I, in the short list of words, I just don't get it. Where they'll say things like, well, you know, the church hid information or they tried to control
their message or they lied to me. And if you go back to the eighties nineties and study any organization, whether it's Ford, Walmart, you know, any or the the the government can can we start there? The government of the United States. Right? Any government, like, everybody in those early pre Internet times controlled their message because they could. Right? Then that's part of marketing and things like that. But, and so during those times, we got a lot of, hyperbolic statements or understandings
of things. And I think it was from my interview with Joshua Coats from the, BH Roberts Foundation. You know, he did this this vast research about different demographics in the church and who's most likely to leave the church. And it's actually my demographic, the millennials, who are most likely to leave because they're caught between these two worlds, where they were taught kind of they they grew up learning in this very structured, formula formulated message of the gospel,
such as follow the prophet. He knows the way or, you know, that's the way that's the way it's gonna be. And then they grew up and then they, you know, spread into adulthood during this time where Internet and information was so available and messages are much more loosey goosey. You know? And so there's create some cognitive dissonance there that they really wrestle with. And so I'm not surprised that my demographic is the most likely to leave the church,
because of that. And so we get you know, unfortunately, there you know, we start looking back on times of of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith and been like, if they were Moses, why didn't they just know? And then I say, well, because Moses didn't know. Like, look
at Moses' journey. Right? Like, and there is just beauty, and and people hate like, they a lot of people maybe who are more black and white, they they have a hard time sitting with this where, you know, take you know, Brigham Young is often the person who's thrown on the bus, which is completely unfair, my my opinion. But God tossed Brigham Young the keys and says, you got the keys. Drive the car.
Right? And he made some decisions. Right? Now in my 2025 perspective, don't like a lot of those decisions or opinions or or doctrines that that he ran with, but he had the keys. And to me, it's a beautiful organic process that led us to where we are today that, we're a strong church. We've we you know? And and, of course, there's always a critique or, well, the current church should do this
or that. Right? And so, to me and and I recognize going back to my interview with Jason, Jason Hunt, which is, you know, he talked about moral theories. For whatever reason, the way I'm wired, I'm just okay with that nuance. I can sit with it and be like, absolutely, Brigham Young was a prophet. Absolutely, Joseph Smith was a prophet. And I don't think they were evil people or dishonest people or and but there's just a lot of nuance.
And I'm I'm totally okay with him creating things while he had the keys that were later correct later corrected. Now what why didn't those guys in between correct it? I don't know. Because they got thrown the keys too, and they said drive the car. Right? And I think there's a lot of empathy that comes from being in a leadership capacity when you realize, oh, so there isn't a scroll from heaven that just comes down in my bishop's office and tells me what to do. Right?
Nor should there be because it's a beautiful dynamic experience that develops the individual and develops the person that follow that individual even though it's really messy. So I don't know. Did I get off base at all? No. It it it is interesting. Right? So that idea of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. I mean, I guess I go back to the handbook here. Right? And, you know, it talks about, like, this is why we have callings. Right? Is to ultimately for us to
become disciples and learn that process. And, you know, the Lord has, decided for whatever reason and his infinite wisdom that line upon line was the way that he was gonna go about it. And, yeah. And this leads me, to it. One of these these topics I wanna dive into and do some more research because, like, I wanna do a whole concept a whole episode about this dynamic of the, the Pharisee. Because it's it seems like we almost have unwritten permission to throw the church leader under the bus
because didn't Jesus do that? Right? Didn't he go in there and tell them, you know, those types of things, you know, like, you better get on straight. He literally went into their area and and flipped some tables. So I guess I should do that. I should go in. You're right. So there's sometimes this misunderstanding of what Christ was doing there, that he wasn't going after the Pharisee just because or just because he was too orthodox. I think there was a deeper meaning there of establishing
the new the new covenant. Right? Now we're not trying to establish a new covenant in in in the in modern times, so we have to really check ourselves before we become overly critical of church leaders, especially our prophet, seers, and revelators because they have the keys that Jesus gave them. Right? They and and I get I get there's, like, pharisaical moments, and
and I wrestle with those too. But I think we get really have to check ourselves before we become too critical of of church leaders because, yes, Christ was hard on the Pharisee, but I think there was a different dynamic going on there. So Sure. Sure. Yeah. And just looking at the church as a whole, right, and what it, like, what it is in the modern day. I mean, it's beautiful. Right? And it's Yeah. It is beautiful. Happy to be a a part of
it. So Yeah. Okay. So I guess I'm not seeing any other questions in the, in the chat. I have been super grateful that you've been able to, to Yeah. Take a little time and answer some of the ones that that I've posed. So I think we're gonna we're gonna wrap up here with your Yeah. Your permission, Curtis. Is that okay? Yeah. Well, you've, you've passed your first round of auditions. So, I would love to do this again, Carlos. And, and you've been a bishop for how long now?
A year. Okay. I'll give you another 6 months, and then we need to have you on to the how I lead segment. And I'd like to love to hear how how that's going and what you're learning from that that journey. So Yeah. Listen to Leading Saints. That's pretty much Love it. Lot and a lot of prayer. Right? And Yeah. So as as we as we kind of finish finish off here, I I will, I know you you have kudos on the website. Right? But, Kurt, let me let me say. So from Richmond, Virginia,
right, we we appreciate what you're doing. You're able to share your section out this way. Oh, thank you. I know there's, there may not be too many of us that are that are engaged, but we'd like to increase that number. So, we we applaud your efforts, and we we hope that you keep doing what you're doing. We have been we've been blessed, right, as a result, and, so we we appreciate that. So we we are looking forward to what's happening in 2025. We wish you and the team the best of, best of luck.
And now, should people want to get a hold of you, right, we talked about some of these ideas, or, you know, now they're passionate, they're like, hey, see what Kurt's gonna do, and I have a book I wanna submit. No. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to love to see it. So Yeah. How, how would you suggest folks, get in contact with you? What's the best way to do so? Yeah. So definitely, you can go to leading saints.org/contact, and that comes directly to my email inbox.
One thing, like, I, rarely unless it's just some off the wall idea where I'm like, I don't think you're serious. I'm just gonna archive this email and pretend I'm doing this, but I will always respond to you. So if you didn't hear from me, I try and be very straightforward to just saying, like, you know, I like the idea of we're just not heading in that direction or whatever. Sure. But, never take a nonresponse as a as a no. Like, feel free to follow-up again. The we're still trying to navigate
our administrative processes with emails and things. I so I do read them. I I do get them. So just try again, you know, maybe wait a few weeks or a month or so, and then try again if you haven't heard back from me, but I would love to. And I also get the, I guess I should clarify this. Sometimes I get like, all right, Kurt, here I am put me to work. And I'm like, okay. Oh, I don't know where to put you to work. So,
but maybe just send that. Let's just keep talking and follow with me and as different, projects come up, I can, I can put you on a project and I've done that in the past? You know, there's someone who, helps, you know, track down guests and make sure that they get on the podcast and things like that. Then she's just volunteering, just loves
to be involved with leading saints. So those do come up and people love them and they're great experiences to be part of this work and which is part of the greater work of establishing Zion and helping the mission of the church move forwards. So, yeah, just reach out and, let's get the conversation going. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints Podcast. Hey, listen. Would you do me a
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who listens to a ton of podcasts and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So, would you mind taking the link of this episode or another episode of Leading Saints and just texting it to that friend? You know who I'm talking about, the friend who always listens to podcasts and is always telling you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell that friend about Leading Saints. So share it. We also love to hear
from you. If you have any perspective or thought on this episode, you can go to leading saints.org and actually leave a comment on the episode page or reach out to us at leading saints.org/contact. Quick reminder, go watch Joseph Grenny's presentation on helping loved ones overcome addiction by going to leading saints.org/14. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.