How do you help someone tell their spouse that they have secretly been viewing pornography? Wow. These are tough situations. Thankfully, one of my favorite and most effective therapists, Jeff Struer, put together a presentation about disclosing betrayal. Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery and repentance so much more difficult if it isn't handled correctly. This isn't a rip the band aid off quickly type of situation.
With a better understanding of betrayal, church leaders can be a strong resource in helping couples navigate the awful effects of pornography usage. You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no cost in the Liberating Saints virtual library. Simply go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen, and you can sign up for fourteen days of free access to Jeff's presentation and the entire library. It's one of my favorite interviews.
If you wanted further insight into a come follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube or get the We Believe app. Tough church history questions? You'd reach out to the BH Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to learn to be a better leader? Well, I'm glad you asked. You'd come to Leading Saints. That's why we exist, to help Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead by being familiar with others' leadership experiences, understand the latest leadership research, and finding a
community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope you will dive into the archives and visit leadingsaints.org to find out what are the top most listened to episodes on the podcast. Welcome. You're gonna love it. In this episode, we're talking with, at least I am talking with the CEO of F3, Frank Schwartz. You're gonna love Frank's personality, his energy, his passion for battling for the hearts of men across this,
this nation in this world. I was first introduced to F three by Benjamin William, shout out to him for connecting me with Frank, but Benjamin came to the warrior heart men's retreat that I do down in Arizona. And I do it in a few other locations, which you should definitely come to go to a warriorheart.com, put the link in the description. But anyways, at this mentor treat, Benjamin asked me like, Hey, can I get up early and invite
some guys to do F three? And I was like, what's F three like, oh, it's just a simple workout that we do together in the mornings with other men. And we focus on fitness. We focus on fellowship and we focus on faith F three. And I said, sure, I've never heard of this organization. And then Ben connected me with to Frank. Who's the CEO of a volunteer CEO of f3nation.com.
And, really, I mean, I can't I obviously, you'll understand it by the end of this episode, but this is a phenomenal tool for church leaders, especially elders core presidents, bishops, who are trying to engage the hearts of men in their ward or elders quorum. A simple ongoing program that's a nonprofit organization that doesn't cost anything that you can point men to that is can be transformational and help them find brotherhood or fellowship and get their bodies
moving. That's the research is endless as far as the benefits of exercise. And then with a focus on, on faith and orienting ourselves to God and that he is the answer to whatever problem we face in this world. So this model, this approach, you're going to love it. There's so much elder school and
presidents can learn from this. And so if you know, of an elder school and president and elders, your presidency member or a man in your life who happens to be a Latter day Saint point them to this episode, Frank also is a Latter day Saint. So, you know, he speaks the jargon. He knows the dynamics that we face and just the way he describes how F3 fits into our faith tradition is, is worth worth knowing. So here's my interview with Frank Schwartz, also known as dark helmet. You'll understand.
Alright. Today, Frank, you're in the house. Frank Schwartz. I'm trying not to think about your name last name too much or I'll say it wrong, but, welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. Really appreciate it. Nice. Now you are a Latter day Saint. You live in, North Carolina. Is that right? Correct. Kind of just a little well, I technically live in South Carolina, but, I can throw a rock and hit North Carolina from here. But, you know, taxes, schools.
We live in a place called Fort Mill, which is just outside of, Charlotte, North Carolina. Nice. And are you originally from there? Actually, no. I'm originally from Virginia. Okay. So grew up I was born kind of in Northern Virginia, grew up down in Southwest Virginia if you're a football fan at all, the Hokies, Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, all that
area down there. Sure. And then, you know, things are what they are and I met a girl and moved to Utah for a few minutes and then was told by my mother-in-law, you can never ever take my grandbabies out of Utah. So I quickly got out of Utah before I had the grandbabies and then there there we are. So we ended up in Charlotte area. Nice. And then our main focus is hopefully talk about f three, which is a I've gotten a little flavor of the organization and the mission and those
things. I think it really there's a lot of parallels that fit into church leadership, especially related to elders core. But, I mean, when people ask you about what you do with f three or what it is, give us that pitch. Sure. So, my role in f three so let me disclaim this by saying we have a lot of made up names and things and kind of our own little language and vernacular and it's kind of its own little community closed thing. And so if I use a lot of
weird lingo, just understand. It's kind of like the church, right? It's jargon, you know, and so anyway. So my role, I mean, technically on paper, I'm the CEO, which what does that mean? Who knows? Because we're a volunteer organization that has free workouts, right? So we charge no money and we run this whole thing. But the F three term for my role is Nantan. And Nantan is a throwback to an old Cherokee, or excuse me, an Apache, I think, word that basically means powerless leader. And the idea
here is, I know it's funny, right? But, I'm sort of just the cultural and spiritual head. Now, obviously, it's an organization, so there's some administrative stuff that kind of goes along with that as well. But if you were to think of it, sort of in church terms, I and I have sort of a shared leadership team, much like a presidency would be. We sort of lead the men and a lot of what we end up doing is, again, it's so funny how parallel this ended
up being to the church. Some of it before I got here and then some of it obviously I'm like, Well, you know what we should do? So you kind of start structuring things and you're like, I know a very successful organization that we could model this after, right? Yeah. But it's a very decentralized organization and so this idea of a powerless leader is a person who can only lead by influence. I have no institutional authority over men anywhere, the different we call them regions, but you
could call them chapters or whatever. They function largely independently, a huge amount of autonomy in those areas and then there's just enough centralization to sort of keep the culture similar and protected and that sort of thing across the entire F3 nation. So, yeah, that's sort of my role is the I don't want to say figurehead because that sounds like I don't do a whole lot, but it's close. Yeah. So, what is F3 and what does
F3 stand for? Absolutely. So, if you go to F3nation.com, you can read a lot of things and watch a lot of videos and that sort of thing. The three Fs are fitness, fellowship and faith. And in our vernacular fitness is, it starts with physical fitness. We're big believers that a man's body is something he has to take care of, right? And that's the first part of him developing discipline in his life and becoming more of what he ought to be as a husband and as a father and
as a member of his community, right? Yeah. If you don't live a disciplined enough life to take care of yourself, it's very difficult for you to lead others. It's not impossible, but it's more difficult and so we sort of start there. So that's fitness. And then fellowship, obviously, that's pretty obvious what that is. Kurt, we were talking right before we kind
of started. You sort of hit that early 40s, mid 30s, early 40s kind of timeframe and sometimes you look back and you go, Well, the last time I remember having friends that weren't my daughter's friend's dad, right? Yeah. Or the soccer dad on a Saturday. Last time I really remember having close friends was maybe high school or maybe played some sports in college or something like that. And so you kind of have this twenty year gap and you start looking around and you're like, Man, I only had
guys that I'm close to. Now, for us, right, as members of the church, we have an elders quorum. Sometimes it functions pretty well and maybe you have some close friends and relationships in there. Maybe sometimes it's kind of just a we all just sort of show up and then boy, as soon as It's it's twelve zero one baby and I'm out of here, you know, whatever, right? So, some of that. But then the faith, we define as a belief in something bigger than yourself.
And so, it's not a religious organization. We don't have any kind of particular faith tradition that we would subscribe to or that we would even pretend to tell a guy that he should belong to. Obviously, we started in the Southeast, so it's a predominantly Christian flavor to it, but really our true belief is that for a man to be an effective leader, to be an effective husband, father and all those kinds of things, he's got to believe in something bigger than himself.
And he's got to submit himself to that. And he has to use the talents and abilities that he's been given to submit himself to that and then to serve the people and the communities around him. Him. So, that faith, again, is not a religion per se or a church or denomination of any kind, it's really just that belief that, Hey, I'm not the center of the universe, I'm not the king of the world, and so by virtue of the fact that nothing revolves around me, my life has to be spent in the
service of others. Yeah. And how long has the organization been around? So it started at oneoneeleven. So it's we just began year 14. I've been participating for a little over ten years myself. It was founded by a guy named Dave Redding and another guy named Tim Whitmire here in Charlotte, North Carolina and it started, it really just started as a workout. Just some guys getting together working out outside, it
was free. It actually splintered off of another kind of small group of guys who were doing that already. So they were out there and they were working out outside. It was free. Some guy who was like a personal trainer was like, We shouldn't have to pay to go to the gym. We should work out outside. Whatever. So they started doing it and they were like, This is amazing. But the guy who was running it said, Hey, I want to cap this. We're not gonna grow this any size. Like, there's only
25 guys. I'm not I can't manage anymore than that, so I'm not doing it. And so, Dave and Tim were like, Well, would you be mad if we went over here and kind of started our own group of this? And honestly, day one, they thought, Maybe nobody is going to show up, but we'll see. But it's New Year's. Who knows? Maybe we'll get lucky, right? Because guys are always kind
of into fitness after the New Year. Apparently, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 guys showed up that first week and then week after that, it was the same thing and then it kind of kept growing and kept growing and pretty soon they were like, we can't manage all this. And what Dave realized is, and this is sort of the bigger part of it, right, is what started as a workout
accidentally became a leadership machine. Because through that, Dave found his personal purpose, which was to invigorate male community leadership. Because when you look around, what he would see at his church, he's not a member of our faith, but what he would see at his church is a lot of guys standing in the corner with their hands in their pockets. Yeah. And he was like, Why are men stepping up to do the things that I think that I'm reading in the bible that we're supposed to do? Right?
So, knowing that the workout was something that would bring men together and put them in community with one another, you started seeing guys start to think outside themselves because they had a lot of these other holes in their lives filled and then the realization came that the only hole left is the God hole and no Lamborghini sized hole in your heart, man. It doesn't
exist, right? So, the pursuit of those things in the world became uninteresting and pursuit of personal purpose and self discipline and self improvement and those kinds of things became kind of the fair of the day. And so, yeah, what started as a little tiny little workout in Charlotte, North Carolina now has a worldwide movement of we estimate somewhere between seventy, eighty thousand guys. That's cool. So, how did you get introduced to it all? So we have
a so going back to jargon, right? We have something we call an emotional headlock, right? You can't actually headlock a guy to come to a workout, that wouldn't be polite, right? So we emotionally headlock you. Essentially what that
means is we guilt you, right? So I had a couple of buddies who were like, you know, oh, you know, you ought to come and that sort of thing and, truthfully I had just it was the winter of twenty fourteen, I think it was, and, I'd just gone to the doctor, annual physical and Curiela is about 50 plus pounds heavier than I am now and he said, she goes, Look, you got sleep apnea, you got high blood pressure, you got high cholesterol, you're basically a stroke waiting to happen. Wow.
And so if you don't do something, I'm a start putting you on a whole bunch of medicine and that's just the way life's going to be. And I said, Well, I don't want any of that. And I've been hearing about this F3 thing and I met a couple of guys and I had a buddy that I kind of did some work with that he lost a bunch of weight and I was like, Man, what are you doing? You look fantastic. And he was like, Well, you know, I started doing F3. Then he told me what they did and I
was like, Well, that sounds stupid. There's no way I'm doing that. And that sounds very intense. And it is. Outside, outside in the rain, pretty nuts, right? There's no way I'm doing that. And then one Saturday, it just had again, it's a lot like the church, right? These thoughts just kept ruminating in your head over time and then I was like, All right, fine. I'll go to the stupid thing. I showed up on a Saturday morning and
it's an hour long workout. One of our core tenants is that it's pure led, right? There's no one, there are no well, actually we have one employee as part of F3, everybody else and I'm not it, and everybody else is a volunteer, right? So from me, the theoretical head of the organization, all the way down to the individual men who participate in the workouts and lead the workouts, it's all volunteer and it's done in a rotating fashion, right? So you serve for a period of time and
it's hold tight, right? You start going, Wait a minute, this does sound familiar. Right? You serve for a certain period of time and responsibility and then you move on to the next thing, right? And every week, every workout or every day at every workout, different guys leading. So, I show up on a Wednesday or I mean, Saturday rather and it's an hour long, there's a couple of guys that are leading that Saturday and we get through about a half hour of the workout and I didn't know what to expect,
right? The guy pulls us all in, he's going to give us kind of a good word and he's like, Well, that was really great, guys. Good job. You worked hard, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. Now, for the second half, I'm going to hand it off to them. And I was like, How was there a second half? I feel like I'm gonna die, right? But Kurt, we do something at the end of every workout that we call a circle of trust. That's our fifth core principle, is that every F3 workout must end in a circle of trust.
And essentially what that is, is it's just you come together, a lot of times you'll kind of lay a hand on a brother, you know, getting that physical intimate touch situation like you're there, right? And it's very raw and you lay a hand on a man and the guy might be a Christian, so maybe he prays or the guy might be, he may have no faith really whatsoever and he might just give kind of a word of shout out, but we share the
burdens that we have, right? So, I've heard everything in these circles from I'm being tempted back to alcohol, to I cheated on my wife, to this actually just happened this week, to my little brother committed suicide. And so, you get in that circle with those men and you lay hands on one another and you pray or you share it,
right? And we say all the time like, either you lay at the feet of your brothers here in this circle so that they can help you pick it up and or you're laying at the feet of your creator so that he can help you pick it up, right? And so, it's a very open and a very It's a very honest thing that we do at the end here. So we got to this end of this workout, right after my first time and I survived, praise Had to tell about it. Yeah, exactly, right?
And we got in that circle and we laid hands on each other and some guy prayed us out and Kurt, I was like, I'm not really sure what just happened right there. And so it kind of ruminated, it rattled around in my brain for a week or two and I was like, I think I'll go back next week. I know I almost died. I felt like I was going to write, but I think I'm going to go back next week. So
I went back the next week. And after, I don't remember if it was that time or maybe the next time, I went home and said to my wife, Honey, I think I know what Elder's Quorum is supposed to be like. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So Wow. And so is the typical cadence like it's a weekly thing or is it a daily thing in some areas or just depends? I'm out there every day and part of it depends on how many guys are participating in the workout in your local geographic area.
Again, don't be surprised, right? Sneakily, unsneakily, because I don't do anything sneakily, I just tell you right to your face, right? I'm like, Wait, guys, there's only a couple of organizations in the world that I know of that are decentralized like we try to be in F3 that have run very successfully. One is the U. S. Military, the other is the Church of Jesus Christ Latter day Saints. So I just told them, I'm like, So guess what? We're structuring ourselves after that. That's
the pattern. And so, in these local areas, depending on how many guys are participating within the geographical region, right? They may have enough guys to support multiple days a week and they may have only enough guys to kind of support one or two days of working out a week because you can't count count on everybody to be there every day.
Where I am in Fort Mill, since it started in Charlotte and kind of was an early plant down here, there's probably, I don't know, on any given day there's a hundred guys that are working out around our little town, there's five or six different locations that have workouts on every single day. In some parts of the country, it's even
way bigger than that. There's parts of St. Louis, Texas and other places where hundred Birmingham, Alabama, hundreds and hundreds of men work out across dozens and dozens of different locations in their area on any given day. So, it happens as often as the men on the ground and the leaders of those areas, those nantians, local nantians, right, that they deem fit. The structure and the cadence of these things is really up to
the men on the ground. So, in a similar way, right, like Salt Lake says a thing, right, this is what you must do or this is what we think you ought to do or whatever, Right? And then there's a we're a little more structured, we're a little more centralized than F3 is. Yeah, sure. But it'll boil down and you kind of go, well, the local bishop or local state president is going to has a lot of leeway to adapt this to whatever it is that he sees from Local adaptation, right? Yeah. It's huge, right?
And it's again, most effective and efficient way to run an organization of this size, particularly when everybody is a volunteer that I'm aware of. So as long as the mission is being followed, right, and the five core principles are intact, then you're good to go. Love it. Love it. And so, if somebody wants to find an F3 group, I assume they go to your website and you got a directory there to geographically search for a group maybe that's near them or how to start one.
Yeah. Both. Right? So I would say, you know, I don't know, one or two, three times a month, something like that, we'll get one and it's like, I'm here in Paducah. There's no F3 workout near me. And we're like, Well, that's there's a reason for that, friend. You know, like, you're in the middle of nowhere. Right? We have resources that we kind of help that guy and support him to kind of get started and move
him down the road. And then really, if you went to f3nation.com and I can't remember what the tab says, but essentially it's locations or find a workout or something like that. You can click there and there's a big map And you can plug in and say, okay. I live here and zoom in and you can find all the workouts that that meet. They'll they'll tell you the days of the week. It'll tell you what time of the morning, what kind
of workout it is. Hey. This is a a run only or this is, you know, we work out with kettlebells or, you know, whatever it might be. Okay. So depending on the group, if if guys got a set of kettlebells or dumbbells or whatever, they may bring some equipment, but generally you just use the outdoors and run. Yeah. Generally speaking, it really was designed to be to remove all barriers to entry. Our five core principles are that number one, it's free. Always and forever. You will never ever ever pay
to attend an F3 workout. It is truly no charge whatsoever, because there shouldn't be a barrier there, right? Because we believe so strongly in what we're trying to do that we wouldn't want to put up something that it's like, We have to be able to afford to come. So, no barrier there. The second core principle is that it's open to all men, and we mean all. We're not joking, right? Yeah. So, and I kind of always say, Hey, black and white bond and free, right?
And candidly, there are F3 workouts that guys have started because it's on their heart to do so in prisons, right? They've gone and started these things to try and help these men find purpose again in their lives and rebuild them. And then the third is that it's outdoors no matter what. The fourth is that it's pure lead in a rotating fashion and the fifth is that there's a circle of trust. And so yeah, the idea, the design was that, yeah, you wouldn't have to have
any equipment. You wouldn't have to have anything. So it's very boot camp style, a lot of body weight. You kind of will get to know the terrain after a while and you're like, Oh, yeah. I remember there's a pile of rocks over here. And so we'll go pick up heavy rocks and carry them. It's very, a lot of times we call it grown man recess, Kurt. Yeah. In God's gymnasium that you created. Yeah, exactly. Right.
That's awesome. That's really cool. Well, and you sent me some great principles here because and as we go through this, I'd love for you to just, you know, find as many of those parallels or principles that especially elders quorum presidents or even, you know, young men's leaders. I'm sure there's a lot of principles here for them as well. And, I'm currently serving as an elders quorum president. And
so I'm thinking Oh, look at you. If we if we find a local F3 group and just say and just make it aware, you know, make it Yeah. Make the quorum aware of it. And, that could be one more place of fellowship that we can Extend from our elders quorum and vice versa. Right? And there is a so you're in American Fork, right? Isn't that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right down the street from
my in laws, they're over in Alpine. So there's a group, at least one that I'm aware, a couple of groups I think that are kind of up in like South Jordan, Daybreak and all that kind of area up there. I mean, super good guys. A lot of them not members of the church. In fact, probably most are not members of the church. There's a handful of guys that are members. You know how we are, Kirk. We tend to kind of be like, Well, I already belong to a cult. I can't belong to two cults.
Right? Just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I know it. But I tell everybody, It's okay. Two is the limit. If you go to three, you got a real problem. But two, you're good to go. But we tend a little bit to be a little insular and a little wary of any group outside of us. We don't Why do I need to gather with a group of men when I already do it? Right? Right. Exactly. I have something here.
Well, you know, it's not necessarily the same, but but, yeah, essentially, that's exactly what we what we would hope would happen, right, as a guy would go, that sounds like something I need. That sounds like something I might wanna do and then and then go find a group and and
join it. That's cool. Yeah. I just think that you know, I just think of things like JustServe, which obviously is a church led, you know, program, but it's also that you're not you're not gonna find the church's logo all over it or it's not, you know, it's meant for the community. Right? %. And so this is another angle where, especially in Utah or, you know, along the Wasatch Front, Arizona, Idaho, where I I always say if there's an opportunity for you to do some interfaith something,
like jump at it, right? Like whether that's at the food bank or F3 or whatever it is. Absolutely. And Curt, I would tell you, you know, guys sometimes I think get caught up and it's like, well, if I go out there, you know, to these other places where other people are, then I have to be a missionary. Oh, yeah. I have to share the gospel. And the 70s ruined us. Right? We got very concerned about the fact that, well, I was on a plane. I guess I have to try and convert the guy next to
me. You know, like, can't just have a normal conversation. And the way it was always kind of portrayed and, you know, characterized in conferences and stuff and be like, well, you know, I spoke to the man next to me and then he fell out of the plane into a font and he's a member of the church today. You know, I feel like, man, why has this happened to me? I don't,
you know, I don't understand. And so I think sometimes we get a little too caught up and so it makes us a little wary, again, or a little afraid or a little hesitant, whatever, to go out into the community and just go be a light, man. Like, I will tell you this, the fitness is great. It's wonderful. And it's changed my life in a lot of ways.
Obviously, health wise, and there's so many things that I've learned about personal discipline, about pushing through limits and things like that that's been really, really wonderful. Right? But I'll tell you, I am 10 times the Latter day Saint that I was. I was like, you know what? Let's go to elders quorum. I was an elders quorum president. I've been bishopric, I've done the whole deal, right? And young men's and all that kind of
stuff, right? But I live my faith infinitely better, partially because of the things that I learned, but mostly because of the men that I associate with. Yeah. And their faith and their dedication to what they're doing is very instructive for one, right? Inspiring for two, and it just, I mean, it's really fantastic. It is really, really fantastic. That's cool. That's cool. Well, let's jump into some of these principles here. You've first, but management and
leadership aren't from the same planet. Tell me more. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot that, that she added. It was a little while ago. She asked, like, what are your top five? I don't know, I just made stuff up. Okay. We can go there if we don't have to. No, let's do it. Let's do it. So, yeah, management and leadership are not from the same planet. I would say that's one of the big lessons that I feel like I've learned from F3.
We have a tendency, especially in our world and really in the church, you know, we tend to defer to authority and it's typically institutional authority. Right? So if a person holds a certain position, we think, Oh, well, they must be right. You know, like Kurt, you're well, he's the oldest born president. Mhmm. Like, never mind that Kurt's an idiot. Right? You know, whatever. Right? You're not you know what I mean, right? Or he's the bishop, like, Oh, well, he's
the bishop. I guess that's just the way it is. And that's fine. There's some value to that sometimes, right, especially if it's in relation to priesthood keys and things along those lines, right? There is some need to defer and to have some procedure around that. And I would say, maybe the Bishop every once in a while or maybe the Elder Scrolls President every once in a while looks at you and says, Thus saith the Lord, and gives you some advice.
I haven't had that experience. I've certainly never done that anyway, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, there's management, which is sort of an administrative function. And I know from serving in certain callings and I know you hear it from a lot of guys who serve in certain callings, right, that it is a very administrative and less administrative kind of an endeavor. It's just a lot of stuff you gotta do, especially like BishopWorks.
Like, man, you're managing a program, but you're not necessarily leading. Yeah. Right? There's a big difference. And the difference I think becomes when because management is largely about control and about making sure that things hit certain milestones or in certain procedure or they follow a certain pattern or whatever it might
be, right? But then you're really in the details and you're trying to make sure that things are controlled and that things are a little more programmatic and rigid, if you will, and that kind of a thing. And that tends to be management. That's true in the workplace. You can tell a manager from a leader, right? There's plenty of managers out there, we create them every day. A lot of people have no business being managers, but they're made
managers because somebody's gotta do it, right? Or maybe they're really good at keeping track of the details or whatever it is. A leader on the other hand, is somebody who can see a place of advantage, right? And has the vision to know, this is where we should be. And then they exercise what I consider to be the skills of leadership, right? They have that vision and they articulate that vision clearly to those people that they want to help.
A manager wants to move someone along to a place because that's where they're supposed to be and they have to be there a certain time and you need to follow this route to get there, right? A leader says, I'm not necessarily even sure how we're going to get there, but I know where we should be and I will articulate that clearly to you. And then I will attempt to persuade you to come along
with me, right? And then when the obstacles come, I will encourage you and exhort you and love you to come through those obstacles. And that's leadership. Now, leadership does not require any kind of position, does not require any kind of bestowal of authority, right? If you ask a guy and he'll be real honest about it, right, in F3 and you go, Do you follow, like, do you follow what Frank says? And we all get idiot nicknames too, that's part of the kind of the tribalism of our
deal, right? So, my idiot nickname is Dark Helmet because they were like, Oh, your last name is Schwartz. And then they went right to Spaceballs and they were like, What was that guy's name in Spaceball? Oh, yeah. That's your name, right? So if you asked a guy in F3 and said, Oh, do you follow what Dark Helmet says? Some of them would probably go well, for some of them probably go, Who's the I don't even know who that is, right? So that's one thing, right?
Which is fine with that. That's great. That means that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. They know who their local guy is. They don't even know who. It doesn't really matter, you know, on a real day to day basis, right? Yeah. But some would go, you know, no. I mean, we follow kind of the core principles and what's going on, but then there'll be some, right, and particularly those that are in proximity who'd be more than happy to say, Oh,
yeah. I absolutely would follow that guy. And I say the same about a lot of those guys. They don't have authority over me. I can't go and revoke St. Louis's charter. It doesn't exist. Man, there isn't such thing, right? I can't say, The use of the logo is no longer approved for you, right? I don't have the authority to do that. But as a leader, I'm supposed to inspire a man, right, and help him to understand that those core
principles are something that are valuable. So I'm going to help you hold the standard brother and I'm going to help you to live by those things. So that's kind of the difference, right? Yeah. It's more like, I have the authority and you'll do what I say, The other is kind of much more persuasion. Oh, hold on. You're ready with the gentleness, kindness, meekness, love unfeigned. Something that right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
So along those lines, like, you know, the thing that another angle of f three that intrigues me is it really is, like you mentioned, sort of this lay leadership led type of organization is there. Mentioned, sort of this lay leadership led type of organization. Is there like, how does that work? Because on paper, lay leadership shouldn't work. Right? There should be a tyrant that comes to the surface Absolutely. And takes
over and leads in a different direction. But, I mean, I'm sure there's stories where things kinda go, you know, off the wheels a little bit and and people maybe try to turn it into something that it's not or I mean, how does that how does that all work? You know what's interesting? So, yes. And we have we have terms for those guys. Probably nothing I could say here, but no, I'm just kidding. It's not
that bad. But but, no, but but but certainly there are guys who think they should have been in charge. Right? They they should be the ones who run out of the thing. And I know how to do a squat. Let me Exactly. You down there. Yeah. Right. And and you know who those guys are? Those are managers. Yeah. It becomes very obvious when you sit in and you can you can say this is true in a congregation
of the church as well, right? Mhmm. It becomes very obvious when a person is there to try and get a thing done so that they can show what a good leader they are. Right? And, you know, like, and I would never say a name and I wouldn't, and it's not anyone that anyone would know and I would never say that it was in our current ward or a ward in the
past or whatever. But in a similar fashion, you know, the guy who served in the elders quorum presidency and he got a % on his checklist of ministering interviews with the people that are on his list, right? Well, when you find out later, it's like, well, he called and left a message for all those guys, never talked to any of them, right? You know, right? He's managing, you know, and when the people look and they're like, Oh, look at those statistics. You know, he's
killing it out there, that guy, right? Yeah. That's somebody trying to manage a program versus a guy who's trying to lead with love and to persuade and and to drag him along. Does that make any sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And because, like, there's typically, like, a leader or, like, somebody who starts the the group, the f three group. Right? And so they kinda just naturally take charge. But, I mean, there's always had a lot
of failures too. Yeah. Guys who thought they were the guy, you know, and they get out there and nobody wants to follow. Yeah. That's the beauty of it. Right? Because same it's very similar in the church. Right? Now the church is different a little bit because it's like, well, even if I don't really like this guy, you know, who's doing this thing, like, I believe in in the in the gospel. Right? I can defer and go, well, I know
the Book of Mormon is true. I know that the church is trying to help so this guy is a little less important than whatever. I'm still going to go to church because I follow Christ, right? Not because I follow this guy. Out here in the Wild West of F3, you know? Yeah. If a guy hates what you're doing, he can walk across the street, start his own. Yeah. You know? And as national leadership, we would go, well, what was he doing wrong? You know, what didn't you like? And he
might explain it or whatever. We go, makes sense to me. Go start it. Yeah. Free delete. There's a book that Dave wrote called Free Delete. Right? And that's exactly what you are. So, there's a little more Wild West in there, but but yeah, this this idea of lay leadership because you're right, it shouldn't it should not work. It does not make any sense. Right? Yeah. But when you start going well, it's successful because it's the truth. Right? And the truth is that God placed
a purpose in every man, right? The truth is that God put our agency within us and he gave us light of Christ and and for members of the church, he gave us the gift of the Holy Ghost and there's all kinds of tools that we have at our disposal to discern and to know what we ought to be doing, right? And so it becomes pretty obvious, like I said, pretty quick, you know, if a guy is there for himself or if he's there for the people. If he's there for the people, they'll follow him.
Even if he's not a very good well spoken guy, he may not be the most charismatic, he may not be you know what I mean? Like, you look at on paper, there's a plenty of guys who lead in F3 that you're like, Him? Okay. If you say so. And when you get in the trench with that guy and he is fighting on your behalf, he's encouraging you and loving you, like real deep masculine love for each other. It's transformative. Yeah. And you will follow that guy for
sure. Yeah. Is there if someone finds, you know, wants to do the F three in area, maybe they don't find one or the the groups they go to, they just don't jive well with it then Sure. And they wanna start their own. What what's some typical guidance? I mean, obviously the, you know, follow the the principles, the five principles you discussed, but is there any other advice you give to somebody as they're sort of starting off
in that leadership role? Sure. I mean, I could give a guy a lot of advice, right? Because I've seen a lot of things that work and don't work. And somewhat, you want to try and help a guy not make all the same mistakes, but then you start to realize that the mistakes are instructive, right? Some of those mistakes you have to make. So, I'm not going to tell you all the things, right? Because you need to fail in certain ways so that you learn certain lessons in certain ways so that you can be a
better leader. So, if you were that guy though, for us now, it's so funny because we have a website and it's just called Stuff Worth Trying. We don't tell anybody what to do. There's a
lot of stuff that's worth trying. So, stuffworthtrying.com and you can go find a lot of information about F3 and how to run F3 chapter, but if you wanted to start one or you were thinking to yourself, I don't really wanna do it this way or that way or whatever, you could consult local guys that are near you, you know, to help or you fill out the form on the website and we've got guys, volunteers, who are more than happy to contact you and, they're kind of in charge of expansion across
The US and and not surprisingly, we've divvied it up by geography. Right? Don't get excited. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so the guy that's over your geographical area contact you and and talk to you about what it would take to start it. That's cool. Yeah. And just that that, this thing light network of of men who've been there, done that, and and I love
the the idea of stuff worth trying. And, essentially, that's what we're trying to do with Leading Saints of saying, we're not trying to say Yes. You're the 10, you know, creeds of good leadership, and you must follow these or you're a terrible leader. But it's just like, why don't you come share what you're doing? This other guy will come share what he's doing. This release study presence is gonna share this and and maybe pick up some pieces and take it back to your role
and see what works. So that's That's part of what's successful about leading saints, and it's also part of what I I mean, personally what I love. Right? Mhmm. I don't know why I'm wired this way, Kurt. I really don't. But from the time I was little, if you want to guarantee that I would do a thing, just tell me do the opposite. Oh, yeah. The contrarian. Yeah. I I, you know, like it's just baked in there somehow. I don't
know why. I've tried to, you know, tamp that down so that I can be a good a good follower in the church and that kind of thing. Right? But, but, but yeah. So, and I think there's an element of that that's in every man. So, Yeah. Yeah. It's instructive. It's helpful. And what do you What about the guy who has no fitness background, right? And he's just like, well, I guess we'll do jumping jacks for thirty minutes or I mean, is there is there
more there? So, A, again, open to all men, no matter how out of shape you think you are. Although, I do love the one that like, Oh, before I go out with you crazy guys, I must have to get in shape first. I'm going to have to get well before you're the doctor too. Is that how you live your life? I don't understand. Yeah. Whatever. So, you wouldn't be asked to lead probably right away. We'd want you to get to a point where you felt comfortable to do that.
And one of the things that we do do at a national level is we do a lot of training and a lot of teaching. In fact, I tell the guys that are kind of leading the different areas of the country and stuff, we just had a call with them last week or no, I guess it was the beginning of this week. But anyway, and I said, understand that your role is not to be a manager. It is not to make sure to start up a phone call with all the local guys and be like, okay, who's got problems?
Let me whatever, let's hear your complaints or whatever. We're not a complaint department because I'm not really interested in what they're complaining about. Yeah. What I'm interested in is how deep is this mission in their heart? And so, your job is to teach and to guide and to train and to love a guy to help him to understand that he needs to submit himself to the mission, right, and to give himself to a purpose and then he'll find his he'll find
his way. So That's that's really helpful. And then, you know, the fellowship, I imagine, just kinda comes naturally. You just get guys together and somebody's gonna tell a joke or talk about a movie they saw and that sort of gets the ball rolling. But what about the the last part as far as the, like, the authenticity of it? You know, circling out I forget the words you use. Yeah. The circle of trust at
the end. Yeah. Circle of trust. I mean, because that could be something you could just blow by like, alright, anybody have any problems? Okay, good. Alright. We'll see you next week or whatever. Like, it's hard to lean into at times. Anything that you've learned there? Yeah. And some do. So, again, just like anything, the success certainly any organization rises and falls on the
leadership of it. So, if you want guys to do those things and to be open and to be, I don't particularly care for the term, but we know what I mean when I say it, to be vulnerable, right? And that kind of thing, then you should probably exhibit that yourself. You go first, you show them what it's supposed to look like, you demonstrate the behavior you wish to get and when you see it, even in a small amount, you reinforce it, right? You tell them thank you, you say good
job, all that kind of stuff, right? So you're constantly always teaching and training a man toward that advantageous place that he ought to be, right? He should be able to share with his brothers what's on his heart. So when he does that a little bit, you know, make sure you reinforce that behavior. Yeah. And those principles are just really powerful. Like even going to the open to everyone. Now, if someone was to ask any elders quorum member or president say, hey, is your elders quorum open
to anyone? And they'd be like, oh, yeah, course. Literally, anybody could walk in here. However, I think culturally, we these things creep up on us. Right? As far as, like, if somebody walked in there and they're like, oh, no. Like, everybody's in a white shirt and tie. Like Right. I guess this isn't open to you know, the it's like, subconsciously, that's sometimes where they go. Right? And so it's it's almost a it's a proactive thing. Right?
%. I'm sure there's guys that think, oh, I could never show up there because I am so overweight that they I I just don't fit in there. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Well, any any, like, thoughts? Like, how do you really make it open to anyone other than just saying that? Yeah. So one thing is get over yourself. Yeah. That's that's number one, right? If you think you hold the key to what a guy ought to look like or do or be to to join your group,
then you've got a problem. And I encourage you to look in the mirror and yell at that guy that's looking back at you and tell him what a jerk he is. And I mean that. I don't have a lot of tolerance or patience for that sort of thing. But I would say it this way, Kurt, there's a big difference between an open door policy and a go out your door policy. Yeah. So, a guy can say, Oh, I've got an open door policy, and his door may be open, but he's putting all the pressure and all the onus on you
to do something, right? And if you're a guy who's not really sure how he feels about life, you ain't going to walk through any door, you're going to sit at your desk and you're kind of trying to pretend you don't exist. You know what I mean? That's what you're going to do. But if you have a go through the door policy, and that's what we have in F3, leave the 99. That is an absolute we would never probably say it that way because it may not make sense to guys who aren't kind of
tuned into what the bible says, right? But that's 100% the way we look at it. There's some real wackos out there in F3. I will say it's a big tent. You know, we we tracked them all. Right? But, you know, they'll chase guys down. They'll see a guy running across the park from them and they will chase that guy down and be like, hey, man. Hey, man. You should come work out with us. You know, instead of doing what you're doing. Right? And
they don't care. They don't care how how big you are, they don't care what color you are. That's one of the great equalizers. Right? When you go to an F three workout, you're dressed in workout gear. It's tough to tell, you know, Old Navy or, you know, Walmart workout gear from, you know, like, Dick's Sporting Goods workout gear. You know what I mean? It's
all workout gear. And for us, you put that logo on your chest, our brand is pretty strong and we love to wear black and that's just sort of how it kinda it's very masculine of us, I guess, big white F3 logo on your chest and everybody's wearing
it. If you were to go up into Charlotte, in the metro area up there in Charlotte, you could work out next to guys who and there's a workout that meets there every Saturday and some of them go to other places too, but you could work out next to guys who are in a treatment facility. Okay? Recovering drug addicts, alcoholics, chronic homelessness, that sort
of thing. And on that'd be on your left and on your right, there's a guy who very legitimately is worth hundreds of millions of dollars because all the big banks are here and there's plenty of very, very, very wealthy men here in Charlotte and we all work out together and no one knows and no one says anything and no one cares. Right. The qualification we all guys joke and they even ask some of the transgender question or some of those kinds of things, right?
I mean, there's all kinds of questions that pop up from time to time around this. And I say, Look, the answer for you, no matter who walks up, right, whether he looks like he might be homeless, whether he looks like he might be rich, poor, it doesn't matter. Whether you're a black guy, white guy, purple guy, I don't care. Uh-huh. Right? Although, to be fair, if he's a purple guy, probably some questions that I want to ask, but right? Yeah. The question is, are you a dude?
If he says yes, then you go, okay, well, are you willing to do burpees? If he says yes, then just proceed with the workout. Yeah. Right? The past that does not matter. And I've worked out with all of them. You know, I've worked out with all of them. And it's the the most equalizing thing in the whole world. Yeah. And and then that's a big part. You know, the the answer, like, the the question I asked like that that fellowship
part surely that's crucial. It's a proactive effort, right, where we're not just focused on who's showing up, but, like, hey. There's somebody else. We know it's that guy here at you know, every time that we show up at this park, let's let's reach out to him. And we've gotten plenty plenty of guys to join us that way. Right? Yeah. And yeah. And it because it is it really is a go out the door policy rather than an open door policy.
Yeah. I'm just thinking of maybe some questions that might come up is like, come on. Can I just bring my wife? Like, can't we just make this a couples thing? And wouldn't that be awesome? Like, we could do it a couples thing. More often than you would like to know. Right? It comes up generally, like, in an elders quorum setting, that's where a lot of elder school activities goes. Like, well, can't we bring our wives? Like, that'll be so great to connect as couples. And on the paper
you're like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. I'm gonna hurt somebody's feelings when I say this. I can feel it already. That is you as a man hiding behind your responsibility to be a man. You want your own wife. You want to offload the responsibility that you have to be in community and to love other men onto your wife. That's what you want to do. And if you don't I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but truth. You're Yeah. You're shirking, when you
do that. Because going and being in community with men and being open and honest and a little bit, again, vulnerable if you will, to share what's on your heart and to be in an uncomfortable situation, Like, you've done this your whole life, guy. I get it. You've always let your wife be the party planner. She tells you what your social schedule is. Heck, half of them dress you guys. Like, enough, brethren. Enough. I don't know whether it's just a societal
thing. I don't like blaming the church for things, because I don't think the church did anything. The people in the church do stuff, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah. Yeah. But, like, but there is kind of an overarching feeling of I think it is societal, I think it's cultural too, and it's largely western, but it's like, Well, let's see. The school can raise my kid,
right? The church can take care of my, you know, spiritual and they'll handle they'll tell me what to do there, and my wife will tell me, what chores I need to do, heaven forbid, I look around and figure it out on my own, right? She'll tell me what courses to do, she'll tell me what to wear. And so we've created a society where men continue to outsource their personal and individual responsibility to be leaders.
Mhmm. They have given it away, and there's very few things in this world that frustrate me more than that. I it's gonna sound a little crazy and whatever, and I get that. But again, two cults, it's fine. Don't worry about it. But, like, I believe that that's my mission on Earth, is to inspire men to overcome those self limiting beliefs. To have them understand you were created for more,
enough is enough, and it's time. In fact, it's past time for you to stand up and to lead in those places you were called. That's what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. Adam hid and a lot of men are still hiding. Right? And it's not like Very true. The way that Well, then what do they do? The first thing is they go, Woah, she gave it to me. Alright. Come on, man. You know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the the ways that men hide
are so subtle. Right? It's like, well, no. I wanna be a good husband and so I wanna include my wife or I need to be home with my family or these things when Of course, core activity and and develop a relationship with men because they don't wanna I need to sit home and play on my phone while my wife does things in the house. Shut up. It's all it's just it's not acceptable. Yeah. We cannot continue to live like this. Because I'm going to tell you this too.
This is crazy belief number seven, right, that I've probably espoused here, whatever. But President Nelson was pretty clear about the timing of things, right, and the hastening of the work. Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you, gathering is and I believe this to my core, when he said this, I mean, Kurt, the heavens may as well have parted and spoke to me directly. Moses may as well have come down and said, remember the whole gathering of Israel thing? I'm talking to you, Frank.
Yeah. The gathering of Israel is 100%, without any question in my mind, the most important work that's happening on the earth today. And if you're sitting in your house playing on your phone while your wife does all the work for you, you are in direct opposition. You're in direct opposition and you've got to get yourself together. And I can tell you right now, the tool that I use, Elder's Quorum, sure, best I can, right? And I don't mean it to sound negative, I love my guys in my Elder's
Quorum, right? But there's not a ton of hard chargers in there. The guys that I associate with are the ones that are I mean, and they are out there doing the work. They are out there doing the work physically, mentally, emotionally, and those are the guys that I'm like, this is the tool that I use to help me to be a better saint, right, to help me to be a better husband and a better father. Yeah. And, you know, the in our structured church as we've alluded to a little bit,
I mean, it's it's cool. I mean, Elder's Quorum I love the concept of Elder's Quorum. And and I I get that many times it doesn't hit the mark that maybe some people some men have with expectation of of what it should be or what it could be. And I and I get that and that stuff. But sometimes we kinda fold our arms, sit in the back elders quorum saying, well, I guess, you know, this is it. Nothing's ever gonna get any better here. Yeah.
I can't go home because my wife has the the minivan keys and, you know, I guess I'll just I'll just, get through this. Right? But to Or the guys who'd go sit in the foyer. That's right. Oh my gosh. But to put yourself in the driver scene saying like, yeah. You know, elders my elders quorum could be better, and I know my elders quorum presidency is trying or Yeah. Yeah. I could give them a list of 10 things they could do better, but that doesn't mean you can't go out and find
masculine fellowship elsewhere. I mean, there's so many opportunities. That's why I wanna highlight f three as one of those many things that if it's not down the street, then make yours the one that's down the street. We will guide you every step of the way, man. I promise. Yeah. But but you're absolutely right. And, you know, we have a a phrase, that we use a lot in f three and, of course, you know, some guys, who, you
know, the ones who know know, right? But I talk all the time about being an act or being an act upon, right, encouraging guys not to be an act upon, right, and I tell them, you know, and they're like, that's really good stuff. And I'm like, well, scriptural. I don't tell where. Right? But this idea a phrase that we use a lot in f three though is, you know, if you're sitting back and you're saying to yourself, you know, somebody ought to do something about
this. Well, brother, you're that somebody. Yeah. And we'll hashtag it, like on Twitter or other places, right? Being that somebody is exactly what we want you to do as a man. We want you to always be that somebody. You're the guy who looked and you found a need or you observed the need in the community, in your home, in your church or wherever it might be and you say, you know what, it's not anybody else's responsibility. It's my responsibility.
I have to step up. If I'm going to become what God wants me to become, it it ain't gonna be because I tripped and fell into it. But I think that we think that it is because we treat it like that a lot. Yeah. Amen, brother. Maybe just tell us as we before wrap up here, like, what are you understanding about the masculine psyche? I mean, because that's the thing. We kinda get in this place of being like you know, I remember being the Bishop of just sort of being like, man,
like, what's the problem with these guys? They just gotta stop looking at the porn or, you know, I get it's so easy. You just don't look or, you know, why why can't you get a job? Like, why are you what's with the video games? Right? We we sort of go to these places of just, like, despair. Like, just stop it. Like, just change. Just be different. But how could you educate us just on the psyche of
the masculine heart? You know, you you'll hear it in a million different places and and we we say all the time in f three, there's nothing nothing that we're teaching or doing that is revolutionary. Right? This is all timeless principles that are just applied in a slightly different way. Right? So you'll hear you've heard it a hundred times before, but I'll say it and maybe it'll resonate a little different this time, you know.
But, I think that it's important to recognize that men well, first of all, you got to accept who you are. Quit trying to pretend like you're something you're not. You're not Andrew Tate or any of these other just wastes of space. I mean, these poor guys just as lost as lost can be. You're not those people. That's not you. Quit trying to pretend like it is. You're You're not some kind of media mogul or some kind of internet influencers.
You're none of those things. You got to admit what you are and what you are is a child of God. You're a son who has a divine calling and you've got to live that out. Now, that means accepting the fact that sometimes it's tough, right? You talk about pornography or video games or whatever it might be, right? If a man is not willing to accept his purpose and he's trying to hide, I mean, those things are fig leaves. That's what
they are. Those are fig leaves. And so, he's just trying to hide from the fact that he doesn't accept and love who he is. There was a scripture, and so I'll just share this. You know what? Well, if this gets a little weird, you can cut it, Kirk. Okay. Right? But I believed for a short period of time there, a few years back, I got into a point Let me ask you this. Do you know what Lou Gehrig died of? Of ALS, right? Yeah. What do they call it? Lou Gehrig's disease. How do you see that coming?
Right? Right. So you can. Right. What are the chances? Yeah. Right. You're like, Oh, and in the disease after me, I guess I was number one, right? Yeah. I had honestly gotten to a point where I believed that maybe I was the first guy that God was just like, Alright. You know what? We tried. It's not that I don't love you. You're just too stupid. You just you get it. Yeah. We've all been there, especially as men. Yeah. Fair. Right? But I really thought, am
I the first one? Because I could accept the idea that it was okay for other guys to be loved and guided and whatever by God, but it was just kind of like, it's not that I don't love you, it's just that I, you just wear me out. Yeah. So I'm just going to kind of be disinterested in what's happening to you. I think a lot of guys do feel that way or something similar, right? And so, in this race that we've created in our society to become something, right? We want significance. We're talking about
the male psyche, we want significance. We want to matter. We want to be important, not in the way that the world teaches where it's like, oh, you're the CEO of a thing or an influencer, you're this or that or, you know, all these things I was kind of listing before. That's what the world would want you to believe is the way to be important or to matter. The real thing I think a man wants is he wants to be able to look in the mirror and look at his family
or whoever he is associated with, right? And he wants to know that no matter where he is, he knows exactly what he's supposed to do next and that it has impact, that it matters what he does, and that ultimately, whether you can articulate it this way or not, ultimately that he leaves a mark on the world. He wants to leave a legacy. That's what he wants. He wants to matter in a way that is much larger than just what he's doing
right now in front of him. And so unfortunately what happens, you don't get enough attaboys at home or enough attaboys at church or wherever and so you outsource the attaboys to your work. So these guys that are workaholics and they're chasing and they're like, well, that's not quite doing it. I know what I'll do next. I will purchase many things, Kurt. And if I can purchase enough things and I cram them in this hole in my heart, then that'll work. It won't work. It's not
gonna work. So in my belief, right, that I was this one guy who God had given up on and I was chasing these things and I was trying my best to live that life and just to find meaning. What is the meaning? What is the purpose? And I knew Bring the past human mentality into her life, man. I knew it. I know the global purpose that we all share. What's my role? What's my purpose? What am I for?
That's a tough question. That's a soul wrenching question And ultimately, to some degree, came back to the Sermon on the Mount and I had to admit to myself and go, okay, God said, don't worry about what you're going to eat, because he feeds the birds. They don't plant seeds in the ground, they don't harvest anything, stick it in a barn, none of that happens. But look at them, they eat and then you go, well, maybe I'm not as good as birds. Okay, fine, smarty. You're not as good as birds? Fine.
How about this? Are you better than grass? Consider the lilies. Don't worry about what you're going to wear. Don't worry about any of that stuff. Worry about our relationship. And when you really dive in and go, okay, Heavenly Father, I submit, I give in, you win, right? Not that he's looking to win, but you know what I mean? Like, you win. And if you'll admit that, that's what the male psyche wants.
They want to have and this is why so many guys have so many damaged relationships with their dads and I tell them all the time, Look, I guess it's your dad's fault, but now it's your responsibility. They want to know that they're loved so that they can turn around and live the same way, right? They want to matter, they want to leave a legacy, they want to be significant in the lives of other people, not in an arrogant or worldly way. Look, at some point, I'm going to stop doing
this Nantan thing, right? If I travel around right now and it's very flattering and I try to live by the James E. Faust, he told Elder Rookdorff, he said, They're going to say nice things about you, Dieter. Don't you ever inhale it. That's right. Right? I try to live by that. Right? So, I could travel over and they'll say nice things and it's all wonderful. Again, tens of thousands of men that do this across the country. Many of them are aware of the,
Oh, Daria, whatever, like this person, right? In a few years when I stopped doing this, they're not going to remember a thing. They're not going to remember who I am. They're going to move on the next day, right?
And that's the beauty of it to some degree, but my hope is that the things that I taught them, the things that we talked about and the way that I led, right, and it's always very satisfying and maybe this is weird, but it's always very satisfying to me to hear a man talk about a thing as though he came up with the idea, right? And that this occurred to him. And I'm like, Yes. Well, that's really good. Even though knowing like five minutes before, that's something that we
said, right? But you go, All I did was teach you the truth. All I did was teach you the truth. And you took that and now you can go and you can create that legacy and on and on and on and on and on forever. So I know it was kind of a long winded way to get around to maybe not answering your question, I'm not sure, but I got off on a tangent. I get a little excited. No. That's great. So but yeah. No. I think that's really helpful. And this has been
really informative and and inspiring. And I hope many, you know, obviously elders quorums, but also just any men any men in the church, you know, can consider this as a resource. And so where would you send them if they want to learn more about F three and find a group near them? Yeah, absolutely. So the easiest way is to go to the website, right? Www.f3nation.com and find a location near you, right? We do a pretty good job, the local regions do a pretty good job of keeping that
up to date. So generally speaking, we kind of rely on that information as being pretty good, pretty dialed in. So that's probably the easiest way. There's also I think it's an I can't remember if it's an app or a website, but there's something called F3near.me. I think it's F3near.me and you can plug in your zip code and it'll find the ones that are right where you are, right? Or actually, it might even just know your location and pull them up for you.
So that's probably the easiest way. The coolest part is you don't have to pay anything. There's no registration desk. You literally just walk up and be like, Hey, is this F3? And they go, Yeah. And then you go, Cool. And then you run, like, you know, do whatever you're going to do, right? That's it. That's the whole of it. Now, they may get your email address or something after the fact because they want to help you stay connected or whatever, but that's really as
simple as that. And then when someone says, Who EH'd you? They'll ask that, right? Who is the guy that invited you? Who emotionally headlocked you? You can just pull a dark helmet. You heard it on a podcast, right? And then they'll give you some idiot nickname and you'll be you'll be one of us, one of us.
That's awesome. And my mind just goes to, like, just what a powerful resources that is because I know there's so many, like, leaders out there that are praying over certain men in in the ward or, you know, people who are struggling. We often default to this. Well, I need to make sure they get a good effective counseling and therapy. And, of course, there's good
in that, then sure, consider those things. But we often think that's like, if this person does not have an advanced degree in some psychology of some type, then that's the only thing that will help. When in reality, you'll be amazed how, especially in the context of men, how they find the solutions to their old problems when they have this community, this fellowship, this connection with God, with this masculine experience. And so this could be one of many
things to say, hey. Yeah. I'm glad you're doing therapy, but did you go to f three this week? Like, you should probably go to F3 this week because that seems to always help you when you go, right? Right. I mean, wives tell us all the time, Oh, when he starts getting grumpy, I ask him how many times did you go out this week? And then I kick him out, right? We get it. It happens all the time because you're exactly right. Are tons of research, right? Oh, physical exercise,
sure, right? And fellowship, sure. We see these articles all the time about, Oh, the great plague of male loneliness in our world. And of course, none of them have any solutions for it. They just want to talk about it, that's whatever. But I don't make any money if we solve the problem, right? Whatever, right? But I'm here to tell you, man, it doesn't even have to be an F3 group.
I don't care. I don't care. Just get out there and start moving your body because that is you, your primary, your spirit lives in there, right? And so, if your body is not right and you're not doing things to take care of it and discipline that and treat that the way that it's supposed to be done, you're not going to get very far on the other stuff. You're just not. It's not personal. I don't get any and that's the other thing about this, Kurt, that I love is I collect $0 in salary to do this.
And I'm just telling you, like, it takes probably I'd give it anywhere between fifteen to twenty hours a week easy, right, in the work that we're doing to kind of keep this organization moving and meetings I have and different things like that, right? And I'd do it twice as much if I could, right, if I could figure out how to because I don't care that it doesn't make me any money. It makes me $0 and that also means that I'm gonna tell you the truth no matter
what, you know? Whether you come or whether you don't come, I don't care. It doesn't give me anything, right? I don't benefit in any way other than knowing that the mission gets accomplished a little bit more in your life, Right? That you get to be a better man. And I think that, you know, kind of that rising tide raises all boats. Right? So if things get better in your community, then by golly, they're gonna get better everywhere. And we got we got a world
to prepare for Christ coming back, Kirk. We ain't got time to play around. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts thoughts or comments. You can either leave a comment on the, post related to this episode at leadingsaints.org or go to leadingsaints.org/contact and send us your perspective or questions. If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to leadingsaints.org/contact
and share with us the information there. And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed. Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff Struer by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.