Have you ever heard of scrupulosity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more Latter day Saints than you think. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with scrupulosity and how he got treatment. You can watch this interview for free in the mentally healthy saints library by going to leading saints.org/14.
This gets you 14 days, free access to Sam Baxter's interview about scrupulosity and 25 plus other interviews about ministering to those who struggle with mental health. The content is priceless for leaders. So visit leading saints.org/14 for free access. So my name is Kurt Frankem and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog
and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some, traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs.
They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, okay, I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy
doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. So what we do here is we invite everyday Latter day Saints who served in leadership, responsibilities, invite them into the studio remotely, most often than not, and ask them how is it that you lead? That's what we're doing in this episode. I talk with Kathy Allen who was a ward and stake Relief Society president down in Phoenix, Arizona.
She now has joined us in Zion here in Utah as everybody, every member of the church outside of Utah rolled their eyes. I I heard it. I heard it. We love you. Hope to join you someday. But, while we're while we're here, we're chat chatting with Kathy and listen to some of these. There's so much here. This is one that you'll definitely wanna share with our stake or reward relief society president. Just the way that she established a culture of ministering, a culture of service.
And sometimes, you know, you wanna be the organization, the quorum, the relief society, the ward that does service and is engaged there, does ministering, but sometimes I don't know. Does does anybody have a fence we need to paint or, you know, a a food bank we could go serve
or I don't know. Like, obviously, we have just serve and all these things, but Kathy gives some remarkable advice on how to stimulate some of these things and avoid burnout and just being spiritually prepared as a leader and how to put on the cadence, the mantle, if you will, of leadership. So let's get into it. So here's my interview with Kathy Allen, Stake and Ward Relief Society President. Kathy Allen, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be
here. Are you really happy to be here? I don't know. Yeah. I'm a little bit nervous. I'm gonna be honest. This is not this is way out of my comfort zone, Oh, that. But at the same time, I feel like I learned a few things, and I have learned a lot from listening to your podcast as well. Oh, cool. Awesome. And so I felt like, okay, if I learn some things, I need to be willing to share like other people were willing to share. So Love
it. I'm here not as an expert, but literally as just a regular person. Nice. Well, that's exactly where I want you. Just that, little bit nervous, but not too much. So I'm excited to have this discussion. Now you just moved from the Phoenix area to Utah. Is that right? That's correct. We lived in Phoenix for 11 years. We absolutely loved it. Uh-huh. What part of Phoenix were you? We were up in North Phoenix, like, just outside of North Scottsdale, and it's a little bit of a different
field than down in East Valley. Most people hear you're from Arizona or from Phoenix, and they assume Mesa or Gilbert. Yeah. And in Mesa and Gilbert is a lovely area, but it is very different in terms of membership in the church. There's a lot of members down in, in the East Valley up where we are. In the North Valley, there were a lot fewer members. We needed everyone who was willing to serve, we needed them in every way. And it also made for a really great cohesive, Ward and stake because
you needed each other. And so I just loved it. When I say I miss my Ward family in Phoenix, I truly mean that. I miss those people that felt like family. It was a hard move emotionally because we did love Phoenix so much, but we're where the Lord wants us for this next step in our lives and so here we are. Now you served as a Relief Society President, both Ward and Stake. Is that correct? That is correct. Yes. I was currently serving they were back to
back. I was currently serving as Relief Society President in our ward when the call came to serve as Safe Relief Society President, and I did not see it coming at all. I didn't see the call to release society president coming either, but Wow. It was a little bit of a shock. And so there was a definite learning curve in there, but it was a beautiful experience. I loved I really did love serving. It was great. And you said it was a it's a little bit different there compared to Mesa
and Gilbert. I mean, how would you describe the the dynamics of your ward in the Phoenix area as far as, you know, demographics or how it was laid out, things like that? Right. So, I would also say here in Utah, it is kind of similar to Mesa Gilbert in that there are a lot of numbers, and your ward boundaries are a lot smaller. So in, where we were up in Phoenix was, you know, the wards were pretty spread out.
Right? Like, even on my street, there was just one other member on the street and maybe, like, 5 in my whole subdivision, which was pretty big. So I didn't have a lot of neighbors around me that were LDS. We, because we're up in that North Phoenix, North Scottsdale area, Paradise Valley area, there's a lot of attrition. People were moving out, but we weren't getting a lot of young families moving in because of, it was just a little bit more of an expensive area.
And so our state, I would say probably every, probably every 3 or 4 years, they would have a realignment, and they would actually have to lose one of the wards. So when I for example, when I was first, our ward was taken from the Scottsdale North State, and we were put into our ward was put into another state. And at that time, the the new state had just realigned and had lost one of their wards. And then, about 4 or 5 years later,
another the same thing happened again. We lost another ward, and our, wards were aligned with hold on. And our stake realigned all the ward boundaries. So, it was just getting smaller and smaller Yeah. Which in one way was hard because, you just you need you need people. Right? You always need people who will step in and serve. But we found that as the wards, as we lost wards and the wards had to realign with the neighboring wards, it just promoted more unity. People just started to
work together. It it would take some time. That 1st year was tricky. People were always saying, well, I'm from this previous ward, or I'm from this ward. And within a year, you started to hear people saying, oh, I'm part of this ward. So it just took some time, but it was definitely a different feel than, like what we're experiencing here in Mapleton, where, you know, our more boundaries are like 4 or 5 streets. You know, it's just a different feel altogether.
There are pros and cons to both. But I would definitely say, one of the advantages that we had was that when people moved in, man, you were so excited that they were there. And and everyone was there to greet them and welcome them and say, we're so happy that you moved in because we really needed them. Mhmm. We needed their their service, so. I bet. So when that realignment happened, were you a ward relief study president? So the first time it happened, we were
in another ward. And when we went into this new state, my husband was called as bishop of that new ward. And it was it there were challenges. So when that first realignment happened, we we were in a a stake, and our ward was taken and put into another stake that at the time was shrinking and that they had lost a ward. And our ward then became, one ward, but 3 parts of other wards, and it was very difficult. There were some challenges there. So my my husband was Bishop during that time.
The benefit then is that I was able to to get to know people really well as my, I call it an unofficial calling as the bishop's wife, but it is very much a calling. So I was able to get to know people really well. But then, he was released right before COVID, And I was that's when I was put in as Relief Society President of our ward, probably, 6 months later, 7 months later. And from there, I went directly into,
the Stake Relief Society assignment. And I served there for probably a year and a half before that that next stake realignment. So, at that time then, there was quite a bit of work for me to do as a Stake Relief Society President to help newly called Relief Society Presidents, and also just to support, the people who were they were sad that their ward had been dissolved, and that they were now part of another ward. Yeah. Other, the ward realignments also put dear friends in
other wards. So there was a lot of challenges, that went or that came as that change happened with the stake. So I'm curious I'm curious to I'm curious to know, like, if you're talking to another stake Relief Society president who's about to experience a a realignment like that with so many awards and Yes. And new Relief Society presence being called. I mean, what what advice comes to mind?
My first piece of advice was to prepare your presidency to to jump in and help the new ward release society presidencies. So be prepared with your training documents, you know, if you have something that you can share with them, be prepared with, ways to help them to promote unity within their ward. But I think that's the biggest thing is just be prepared for the change that's coming.
So that you can step in and love administer to those Relief Society presidencies that are now trying to rally their war to and and get things going again. That's probably my biggest piece of advice is just be ready. So that when that's those realignments are announced and the new presidencies are announced, that you're there to to train them and to to support them through that Yeah. That process. Did you find yourself like was what did that look like day to day or
week to week? Were you calling just a lot of the release site presence? Were you holding formal trainings? Or what what were you actually doing to help them? So we did hold a formal training. I believe the split came in, like, late April, if I'm if I've got my timing right. The split came. And then about 3 weeks later, we had a joint Relief Society and Elders Quorum training for the entire stake. And our hope in doing that was to get kind of everyone on board, with what needs to happen. Right?
So we have that training, but immediately after the changes were announced, and we knew all the names of the New Relief Society presidents and their counselors, we reached out. I reached out to the Relief Society presidents. My, counselors would reach out to their counterparts in the Relief Society presidencies, and and just welcomed them, expressed our desire to help them, expressed our willingness to come and train them, and to train their purse their presidency,
in person. We sent them different things from the handbook, and said, you know, these are good things to read, but the first thing you need to do is just get on your knees and and recognize that you were called for a specific time and a specific reason to serve the people in your ward right now through this change. So those were kinda some of the things we did right off the bat. Mhmm. Oh, I love it. Love it.
I as as we do in these how I lead interviews, I had you send me a handful of principles that, seem to help you and guide you. And the first one is about, being it's about spiritual preparedness matters. Unpack that one for you. Yeah. So, I think that is probably the biggest lesson that I learned in serving, both at the ward and in the in my role as Stake Relief Society President.
Maybe I'll back up a little bit and share an experience that I had when I was called as the Ward Relief Society President. So as I mentioned, it was right during COVID. We had just we were still meeting only at home. And then but we are the board council was kind of leading sacrament meeting, and we were watching from home. Everyone was eager to get back to church. You remember? It was just Yeah. It was kind of a challenging time, but I was also very focused on my own family.
And in what I needed to do to kinda help everyone in my family get through this challenging time, and stay firm in their testimonies. We were going through stuff with our kids the same as everybody else does. And so when the call came from my Bishop to be, the War Relief Study present, I didn't see it coming. And I was like, I am not prepared to do this. Like, I don't think I don't think you've got the right person. I think I might have said those exact words to him. And he
said, oh, no, I'm certain of it. And I said, I need to be certain of it. I need to go to the temple. Well, as you remember, the temples were closed. So I, I remember going to one of my daughter's volleyball games, and then I left her game immediately afterwards and just drove over to the Phoenix Temple. And they had set up a bench outside the gate so that you could sit and just ponder.
And I did, I just sat there. I opened my scriptures, and I just really felt heavenly father guiding me, through the Holy Ghost of what I needed to read and study. And I landed in 3rd Nephi 19. And as I read that, my heart just filled with peace in knowing that I could do this. And that's that's the chapter where, the savior is is teaching his disciples to to pray and to minister. And he showed them what that looked like.
And he asked them to pray multiple times and to min go out and minister, and that he would be in their midst. And that was such a testimony to me that that's what I needed to do in my service and Relief Society. And so that became my Relief Society anthem, 3rd Nephi 19. I can still remember every part of that experience because I felt like I was inside the temple,
receiving guidance from Heavenly Father. He made it clear to me that he loved me and that he loved the sisters who would be in my care, and that he would be in my midst if I would fully consecrate myself to serving in this calling. And so that was it. I was gonna pray, and I was gonna minister, and I was gonna pray some more and get up and ministers some more. And that's really where these lessons, that I wanna share kinda came from, is that I learned then firsthand what
what that looked like. So when I say that spiritual preparedness matters, I think, what I mean from that is if you are in the scripture studying, if you are reading the messages from our church leaders, if you're taking time to go to the temple and and be prayerful in your time there, it just makes it easier for the Holy Ghost to put things in your heart and your mind.
And so that was my first focus. It's kind of like, you know, a mom when you're on the plane and they say, make sure you put the oxygen on yourself first. I had to do that for myself first. And I found that as I did that, Heavenly Father just I just felt like I had a conduit through the spirit, right toward, heaven that allowed me, to know what I needed to focus my time and energy on.
There were times that I had to say, oh, I I can't really watch that, or I can't really listen to that because I immediately would feel the Holy Ghost withdraw, and I knew I couldn't afford to do that while I was serving in this calling. And, I felt that even more so when I was serving on the stake level, I just I needed the spirit with me all the time. There is a talk from, elder Irene. Well, at the time he was elder Irene. It's back in 2002
called Rise to Your Call. I don't know if you've ever read that one or it is so good. It's yeah. It's an old one. It's an old one, but a good one. It it really, he just talks to, he frames it in terms of to a newly called the elders quorum president, I think. But, it's obviously to anyone who's received a calling. But basically, he just said, we are called by revelation. The the the Lord just didn't say to the Bishop, hey, go call anyone or to the stake president, hey, go call someone.
He he put on their hearts through and through them studying and pondering and praying who needed to be called. And so he elder Irene at the time, elder Irene, now president Irene, reminded us that we're called by revelation, that we serve by revelation and through revelation. That the information that comes as we're leading really comes through the Holy Ghost. But you also have to do the work so that the Holy Ghost can can work through you.
And then one of my favorite things that he says is that the Holy Ghost, and our savior will multiply and magnify your efforts. And I love that. Right? Because most people who are in a calling feel, you know, perhaps that they're not qualified or whatnot. And definitely, we recognize that we also have gifts and talents that can help us in our service. But the reality is, if we give the Lord a little bit, he can take that little
offering and just magnify it. And so I recognized pretty quickly that even though I felt overwhelmed and underqualified, that he was making up that difference, and he was gonna to magnify the gifts and talents that he he had blessed me with. I recognize that I have some of those gifts. I have a ministering heart. It took me a long time to just say that loud. I have a ministering heart. I love I love big, and I love to minister to people. It is one of my
talents. Mhmm. But my ability to minister was greatly magnified as I put in the spiritual work to stay in tune with the Holy Ghost. Yeah. Yeah. That and that's I I'm just I appreciate you recognizing sort of that that gift you have as far as having a minist ministering heart. Is there is there anything else that that's worth talking about there as far as how you go about that or if people are struggling with having a ministry art? Or Yeah. I I think first off is just having a desire.
Right? Recognizing that ministering is it's not so much about an assignment as it is about the way of life, number 1, but also ministering is a covenant that we make. Right? When we are baptized, we covenant that we will mourn with those that mourn, and we will bear one another's burdens. So for me, I I just hope that people recognize, okay, this is a covenant I've made. How how do I go about it? Well, I think the first thing is just praying for that for that love of other people.
And then recognizing, okay, I've made a covenant to do this. I'm gonna try. I'm just gonna try. It doesn't take very much for people to feel love coming from you. Like it's sometimes it's as easy as just a question of not of just how you're doing and you're hoping that you get an I'm doing okay and keep walking by. But then you'll stop and look at them in the eye and see how they're doing. I feel like that's really, really important.
But that's not I I just think sometimes you just have to take the first step of asking for that, and then trying to show love. And I do feel like if you ask heavenly father who who needs me today, he'll answer if he knows you're gonna to respond. So I feel like desire is is a big part of it is just wanting to do that. And I think it becomes a little easier to do as you just recognize, hey, this is an opportunity to share God's love with someone else. It doesn't really have that much to do
with me. It has more to do with me just being his hands, and offering that love. Yeah. When you think back to just the beginning of that word really started calling, as you're, you know, you're set apart? And did you have a specific vision or focus or things that you wanna implement, activities you wanted to do? Or how did you kinda find your footing in that, in those first few weeks as a relief society president? Oh, man. I was I really was so overwhelmed, and I didn't know,
I didn't know how to do it. I just kept thinking, how do you do this? How do you how do you know who needs you? Like, I remember asking that outgoing Relief Society president, like, how did you know who needed you? And she said, okay, Abby, it'll come. Just don't worry about it. You'll find it. The Holy Ghost will will help you to know.
And that was an interesting thing. So watching, like kind of looking back, I can see that that first experience at the temple for me, when I recognized that I had been called by revelation as as Elder Iron had taught me, but also that I was gonna be led by revelation. And 3rd Nephi 19 was the revelation that I needed. That I needed to impart God's love by first praying for it, and then getting up and actually acting, and and doing His work by loving other
people and ministering to them. So those were the two things of what I really, I felt strongly about that from the beginning that I needed to, to be led by the Holy Ghost and then to be able to share love through ministry. So I would say if anything, if there was one thing that I felt almost immediately that I needed to do, it was ministry. Yeah. I needed to have a strong focus on ministry. Yeah. And that's you talk about your next principles. Ministering is is the answer to everything.
Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything more dive into that for a minute? Said there. Yeah. Go ahead. So, well, I think I think one thing I do wanna point out is that that Christ wants to be the heavy lifter in all of our columns. He he wants to do that part, but it really does take us, yoking ourself to him, to be able to accomplish that. Yeah. So I think, that's one thing I would say is in in you know, through my experience, I learned that ministering was the answer for almost every problem.
But I feel like that was because I had yoked myself with the savior, and I and he was giving me insight into what what he had done in his life, which was ministering 1 by 1 and saying, if you do this, some of these things that seem like big problems will be eliminated. And so I'll go to this comment. I I found myself sitting in board and state councils listening to different situations. And I would think to myself, oh, ministering would fix that.
Oh, ministering would fix that. And all of a sudden that's where I realized, oh, this is actually the answer for a lot of things. Ministering is is just a way to follow Christ's example. He led out with that. You see countless examples in the scripture of him ministering 1 by 1. Mhmm. And, and us being able to do that as well. I think as leaders, there is definitely a trickle down effect. And so from I feel like from the top down, we've got to be ministering.
I just had this thought actually come to me that of do you remember in President Nelson's 100 year celebration, Sister Camille Johnson, who's the General Relief Society President, she she really shared a beautiful example of how the prophet ministered to her and ministers to her every time she is in a meeting with him. Mhmm. And I think that is another prime example of this trickle
down effect. When you can minister to those in your stewardship, you have an increased love for them and an increased desire to do, to share God's love with them that they need. I think our prophet models that so beautifully. The state president I served with modeled that beautifully. I remember going in for a I don't know if PPI is the right word, but you know what I mean? I guess we could call it a minister
and interview. Anyway, I would meet with him and I remember sitting down with him before we even got started. He was he wanted to know how my husband was doing. He wanted to know about my missionary. He wanted to know about my kids. And and then he wanted to know how things were going in my calling, how I felt things were going. That was before we even got to the nuts and the bolts of what we needed to discuss.
He fully ministered to me. And and I really feel like when we as leaders can minister to those we serve, it it's just gonna trickle down, and it's gonna bless everyone within our stewardship. So I will say that, my primary focus, I guess, was always to those within my Relief Society presidency. So as a Relief Society presidency at the board and the stake level, I I wanted us all to love and minister to each other. So we always started every meeting with a check-in, seeing how everyone was doing.
But that followed up through, you know, checking on each other during the week or, and whatnot. Real friendships are created when you serve together. I think you've probably experienced that as well. When you serve with people, you just love them in a new way. And there's there's just a bond that occurs. But I think that bond occurs because you've been ministering to one another during the course
of your your service. So Yeah. But I love, you know, I think back even when I was called, our state president when he called me in, as I said, I was serving as war relief study president. I did not have any indication that this calling was coming. And he just said, Kathy, I I I know that God wants you and trust you to serve, the 1400 women in our stake. And I was like, oh, 1400? Like, how do you do that? How do I how do I I probably know 50 of them. How am I supposed to do that?
And, and that again, that feeling of overwhelm of how am I supposed to do that? And it was almost immediate that the spirit said to me, you love and minister to the Relief Society Presidents of this stake first. You show them what love and ministering looks like, and you minister to their counselors and their secretary, and then they're gonna go administer to the other sisters. Right? And it is again, it starts at
the top. It starts with our prophet and our general authorities who have taught us so well, who have learned from the savior as well. And then it goes to our stake president, and then, to the stake leaders, to the ward leaders. Right? And then but in the end, it's the ministering brothers and sisters who are really the ones in the trenches doing the work. Right?
And, when you can set that up to work in such a way that the ministering brothers and sisters are are out there doing what they've covenanted to do, those problems really stoop do start to be eliminated. Mhmm. I when I was first called in the ward level, one of our good friends was the elders quorum president, but he was also being released. But he sat me down and did a little training, and I loved one of the things he
said. He said, Cathy, if you are doing something that administering brother or sister could do, you are doing it wrong. Mhmm. And I had to really think about that for a minute, but he said, so much of what can be done should be done by administering brother and sister. That is part of their responsibility. But also, it's this idea that, delegating is also, I feel like, a little bit of a principle of ministering. Right? We show trust in someone else to go and do the Lord's work.
We clearly can't do it by ourselves. And so we we ask for help. We ask that of our counselors. We ask that of of the ministering brothers and sisters. We delegate that responsibility. And that's not just to say, you go take care of it. Because then I don't have to do it, but I don't wanna do it. No. It's a, hey, we're in this together, and, I I need your help, and our savior needs your help. And you you get to go out and do, be his hands by being a ministering brother and sister. And
we're gonna be in this together. And I feel like that that just helps, the ministering program seem not so much like an assignment, but, again, more like a a responsibility that you take very seriously because it's part of what you've covenanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna go back to something you said as far I I love this framing of recognizing first administering that Christ is the one doing the heavy
lifting. Yeah. And, I know I'm I'm just curious how you approach this or where there's so much to be done, so many requests at times that, as you strive to minister to people, you kinda you get reach a burnout or you do too much or Yeah. You know, you think, oh, you need a new new job. I'll help you with that. Oh, house needs to be cleaned. I'll be right over. You know, like, all these things that that come up that can really drain you, and then it almost sneaks up on you at times where here
you are thinking, oh, I'm just serving. And, yeah, it's a little hard, but, you know, this is what Right. You know, discipleship looks like. Right? So what what comes to mind with with that dynamic? Well, again, there, I think the what you have to do is expand the circle of people who can help. Right? You need more hands. So sometimes it's as easy as, you know, me going and helping a neighbor with something that they need done.
Other times, if you're saying someone's moving or someone's doing, you know, I think of this example, I was serving in the stake at that point. And so our but in my ward, the Relief Society president had gone. They had found some lady. She had been a shut in. Hadn't she hadn't been active in church for years years. Her her house was it was another level of a filth and and really sad. I mean, it's hard to feel the spirit when you're
in that. Yeah. But our Sweet Relief Society president just said, we need to go help her, and I can't do it by myself. And she just put out a call for in the ward and said, who can come and help clean and organize? This lady was moving back to, I think to Utah with her to her with her kids. But I just remember it was this idea from this Relief Society President. I gotta expand the circle here of help. What what I can offer is not enough.
And I think that's again where if you're trying as a Relief Society President to do everything by yourself or as an elders born president or as a bishop, you cannot do it all by yourself. So first, you're gonna ask your your counselors to help you, and then you're gonna ask, the ministering brothers and sisters to step in. I also think that Jesus Christ himself set boundaries. And so we do have to be wise that we're not being taken advantage of.
But I also think to myself, you know, never never dismiss a generous thought or offer. And so, I think in a lot of ways, we can help people. But if we can't do it on ourselves by ourselves and we're feeling burned out, I think that's when we really have to expand and ask for other people expand that circle. Yeah. That's great great perspective and really helpful. And this sort of segues into the the last principle you have here as far as service promotes unity.
Yeah. Any what what stories or concepts come to mind? Well, you know, we there's a few things I'd like to share about this. I do feel like when you are serving with other people, you just you just have an opportunity to see them following the savior in a very unique way. And so it it creates unity. In our stake in Phoenix, we were trying really hard to create a culture in our stake of service. And this started by our state presidency,
inviting us to do that. But also, the Just Serve program is something that's different in, I think outside of Utah than it is here. Mostly just because well, this is the way it's set up in Phoenix, and then I'll try to explain. But so, basically, in Phoenix, the way it's set up, and I think this is probably throughout, the country, is you adjuster specialist is called in your, in your stake, and she it is a stake calling. Right?
And she is the then tasked with going and finding all of the nonprofits within our stake boundaries. And in Phoenix, that was a lot. There were a lot because our stake boundaries are rather large. And she develops relationships with those nonprofits and and offers to help. She said, you know, you go find these nonprofits and you say, hey, I I can provide I can provide the manpower. And so she gets them listed on, on a JustServe, and then that's when you can go on
and find it. So as a stake relief society, my her my point my purpose was to to work with her and be the inward face of JustServe towards our stake. And our Just Served specialist was focused on looking outward and finding and creating those relationships. She actually is a Just Served even though her calling is from the church, she is a Just Served, specialist and represents Jester. She does not represent the church in a way. I don't know if you knew that, but so, like, on her badge,
it says Jester specialist. It doesn't say church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints because we want people to know that we're there to help everyone. So she is the outward face as the gesture specialist, and the stake release society president is the inward facing. So she would gather information. She would then share that with me. And then it was my responsibility to share that with our congregation. And that was a little bit overwhelming at first.
And so we did a few things to try to help with that process. One of the things that we did was we, we started doing tours of the nonprofits. Because once you're inside and you see the good that's happening, you wanna do more. Right? And so she would she would come up with a tour, and then we would share that with the members of our stake. And once a month, we would go do a tour of a nonprofit.
Find out what how it was created, find out what they're doing, find out what their needs are, and and then say, okay, how can we help? It was such a beautiful way to to recognize the good that's happening, in our communities. And I think that's one of the lessons I learned very quickly was that God is using people inside and outside of the church to accomplish His work.
And going into these nonprofits and linking arms with those who are maybe are not of our faith, but who have had something put on their heart by God to do to alleviate the suffering in the world around us. Linking arms with them was just such an absolute honor and privilege. And, I love that. So that was one of the things we did. Another thing that we did, to help with with kinda getting that information out there was, we had our adjuster specialist help create this most beautiful,
bulletin board. In each one of we have 3 buildings in our stake. Each of those has a giant, you know, full wall size bulletin board with different, just serve opportunities. And she would go through and curate quarterly something for youth groups, something for, families, something for you could do from home. And and it just had a clipboard with printouts, with QR codes of different activities. Because if you go on to Just Served, it's overwhelming,
to try to find an activity sometimes. But she kinda curated it, put it up on the bulletin boards, And that was a part of how we were trying to promote this culture of of service in our stake. And people we would just invite people, hey, before you go into a youth presidency meeting or before you go into your elders' comp presidency or young women's, whatever it was, take one of these flyers and see how can you incorporate a service in whatever activity you're doing.
Because I really do think the more you're involving service in your organizations, there's just create some unity. Right? Yeah. And that was one thing we loved. The other thing we did was, every year, Relief Society has an activity at the state level. And so we would try to incorporate some element of service for those activities.
And usually, what we would do was we would just go through and look at the my friend who was the gesture of specialist would kind of go through, share with me some of the nonprofits. I was very prayerful about it, and we would discuss in our presidency meetings about opportunities, but the Holy Ghost would always direct us to someone in the community that needed our help for that service project. And so for example, we had one where, we had, the opportunity to fill snack bags
for homeless children. There are about 26,000 of these snack bags that are, distributed every month to hungry kids in the Phoenix area, and they just need manpower to stuff the bags. And so within 14 minutes, we packed 1500 bags. I thought, you know, you know, you're doing your time management for this activity, and I think, okay, this takes about 45 minutes. 14 minutes, we were done. It was so beautiful to see what happened when you got a 100 women together.
And Yeah. The women loved it because they could just sit and visit while their hands are busy, and they're making a difference. So those were a couple of things that we did to incorporate service, in in our stake. It was a really great opportunity to partner with those in our community. But I I would say to any Safe Relief Society President, have a great relationship with your gesture specialist.
She can be such, an important element of of, support to you in your presidency to help create a service, oriented culture. Yeah. I love the the focus on not only a service oriented culture, but how to stimulate that even that maybe there's not, you know, obvious service assignments out there or, you know, maybe something you've done and you need something new
or whatever. But to go out there and stimulate some of these services, like going just do tours, not to go to a place to serve, but just show us what you do here. You know, you're a nonprofit. Right. To tell some stories. Right? And, I've had similar experiences, and it is amazing that even though you don't go there for service specific activity, you leave sorta reengaged and recommitted to being more service minded.
That's exactly right. And it really did. You ended up with just these, your eyes are just opened to how much how much need is out there and to how much good you can do oftentimes doing something very small. Yeah. But it was that was a really great a great thing. I I fell in love with that, the Just Serve initiative that the church is doing. I don't remember where I read this. I I feel like it was one of our church leaders, and I hate it when people just throw out quotes and they don't know
the source. But basically it was this idea that we, in these last days, as we approach the second coming of the savior, Christians will need to work together. And and the only way we're gonna get through really the challenging times ahead are if we are working closely with with other Christians, to accomplish God's work. And I feel like the Just SIR program really allowed me to see that. Just to see these good men and women who just had this idea put on their heart of like, oh,
these refugees really need some help. Or these, these little children who are part of the foster care program, there's a need here. And then they just slowly ramp up and seeing how how they can do it. There's one tour we went on. It was called the joy joy bus diner, and it was started by a lady who recognized a need for cancer patients who were undergoing treatment, to have some some healthy food brought in. And so we went toward this place and
they were telling us about it. They had this wonderful food, and then they have volunteers come and pick up the food and deliver it. And then she starts describing it to me and all I can think of is, this is ministry. They had prepared these meals and then these volunteers would go and take it to these people's homes. And most of these people just wanted them to sit and visit with them for a few minutes. Yeah. Right? It was just this caring, the food was the vehicle to deliver some love.
Yeah. And it was just such a beautiful thing. But I loved I really did love that. That's powerful. Those tours were such such a beautiful opportunity to see the good that was happening. You know, I wanna share this one story because I think it's an example of how, the Lord worked, and how he magnified our efforts, number 1, but also how he was aware of multiple people. It started in that I was I was doing a tour with our facilities manager and a member of our,
state presidency. And we were going through all the buildings and looking at things that needed to be fixed or whatever. And we walked into the kitchen and I said, what is the purpose of all this stuff sitting in here that no one uses? We all use paper goods. Right? And this this idea was was hatched that we were gonna do a massive deep clean of all the kitchens in our state buildings. Like I said, we have 3 buildings.
And then life just got busy. And we, our presidency could never find time to do this big cleanup, and it was a big cleanup. Finally, we get to the point last fall of being able to go through. We got rid of tons of dishes, plates on all the utensils, and just stock things with serving utensils and let people from the wards provide the paper goods. Anyway, we packaged up all this stuff.
Along the way, I had I had visited with someone at this Gathering Humanity, which was a nonprofit that we had visited. And and I thought we need to these need to go to the refugee homes that are being, set up by this nonprofit. And the state presidency was in full support of that. So we clean out and we gather all this stuff and we go to deliver it.
And as we're unloading everything, I just nonchalantly apologized to this, woman and said, you know, this is so funny because we I don't know why, but we have no spoons. Only forks and knives. We have I think we have, like, 500 knives, 500 forks and maybe like 20 spoons. I said, I I don't know why, but she said, we've been praying for utensils. And she said, and don't worry about it because, we knew God would deliver. And we just had a hotel donate 100 of spoons, but no forks and no knives.
And I just I just sat there like, this is how God works. You you do your little part to follow a prompting that came. You do the work involved and then he's going to take what that little offering and just expand it. And I thought it was such a beautiful testimony to me that God is involved in the details. Right? He knew we didn't have spoons, but this hotel had the spoons and, together we were able to provide what was a really cool thing. I love those stories.
That's great. Yeah. Really great. It was pretty fun. Well, Kathy, any other point principle concept story we need to make sure we Let's see. Before we wrap up? Or I had this quote written down, and maybe I'll share it with you because it it kinda goes back to something you were talking about about getting burned out, Mhmm. And not knowing, like, how much how much you can offer. This is from President Nelson. He said, he was talking to the women of the church in the,
the Relief Society devotional was last March. And he said, I bless you with increased spiritual discernment and the ability to find joy in offering relief to others. I bless you with wisdom to discern what is needful, and not to run faster than you have strength. And I think that's a good, a good tie into what we were talking about before. Expand those circles, but also recognize when a boundary needs to be set and recognize, when you're maybe trying to do a little bit more more than you can
do. Yeah. It's inspiring. That's great. You know, one thing that I I would like to touch touch base on is how what a blessing it was for me to serve with priesthood leaders who recognized the importance of involving female leadership as well. I I always felt that my words had a place and and that were important and valued. So early on, kinda going back to that spiritual preparation, I was sitting in the temple one day, and I had the very distinct thought that I needed to be
in my scriptures even more. And particularly that I needed to start studying more about the women in the scriptures. And be prepared to defend my role as a female disciple of Christ. And and so I began this this study, and it started with the women in the scriptures, and then it became a desire to like, you know, I was looking online and trying to find any top I could find. It's particularly from our prophet about the the women the strength of women.
And one thing about President Nelson is he has not been shy about sharing how much he loves and trust the women of the church. And it was such a privilege for me to be able to to start with that little thought that came in the temple to study more about the women in the scriptures that just kind of the Lord just taught me line by line, precept upon precept about women and the strength, that we can be, in this great cause to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.
And I was very blessed with, a state presidency who who wanted me to speak up and share my thoughts in state council. And really, if I had counseled with my presidency and I brought something to our state presidency, said, hey, we've been thinking about doing this. Go for it. They they trusted us so much, and I felt like I had their full sustaining,
vote to just go and do. Yeah. And they trusted that I had been called of God, and that my presidency was working together in unity to to bring about some of the the things that they needed us to do. And it was just this beautiful ex experience for me kind of culminating, culminated with the Relief Society devotional in March of 2024, when our prophet just made such beautiful promises
and invitations as well. He invited us to do some things, that I know that God put on my heart to help the women of our our stake know that he he loves them. And that would that came so early on when I was called that. I need you to share my love with my daughters in the stake. Help them to know that they are needed, that they are loved, that they have talents and gifts that I have given them, and I need them to share them with other people.
And I am grateful that I was, able to serve in that capacity, especially with our state presidency that allowed me to kinda freely share that love with the sisters of our state. I'm glad you mentioned that. It's it's amazing just how powerful it is, and it engages those that are leaders when, you know, the those the leaders above them are giving them autonomy, saying go for it. Run with that. Let us know what you learned. You know? And, 100%. Yeah. It's powerful.
No. I just thought of something else, Kurt. This was, this was probably one of my favorite lessons that I learned, and it took me a little while. As I have shared, serving in the ward level, was such a beautiful opportunity for me. There is so much ministering involved in a ward Relief Society presidency. And I loved it. I loved meeting with the sisters. I even love ministering interviews because I felt like it gave me an opportunity to minister to everyone as we did those interviews.
But, when I was called as Stake Release Society President, I really missed those ministering, aspects of my calling. And I just kept thinking, all I do is train. All I do is do events. There's a lot of events when you're a Stake Relief Society President. You put on a lot of events. And and one day, the spirit just said, Cathy, you you've missed the mark here. Every meeting you are in is an opportunity to minister.
And when I switch that lens of, the administrative stuff is is weighing me down to, I'm going into this meeting expecting that number 1, a revelatory experience, and number 2, who needs me today? Who needs some ministry today? And every single time I would go into a meeting, something would happen and I'd be able to to share love. And usually it wasn't anything
big. It was just a asking how someone was doing or whatnot or just giving I'm I am a hugger so I gave lots of hugs, but it was an opportunity to minister in those administrative duties. And I learned that all the training we have, all the administrating we do in the church, it is important, but it is only important because it helps us to minister better. That's why it matters. That's why we need to be trained in our callings, because it helps us to minister better.
It allows it, the Spirit of the Lord to to flow more more purely through us. So Awesome. That was that was one of my favorite lessons, is just find a way to minister in every, every appointment, every visit, every training, every meeting, every state council, and you can do that. You can find those opportunities pretty freely. And that concludes this How I Lead
interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this experience? And this is how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guys doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area, and,
that's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the how I lead segment, reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and,
see if we can line them up. So, again, go to leading saints.org/contact and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future how I lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast. Remember, to watch the interview about scrupulosity, go to leading saints.org/14 for free access to the Mentally Healthy Saints virtual library.
And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.