It seems like struggles with pornography get most the airtime these days since it is so available in modern times. However, drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at shocking rates. As a church leader, we need to be prepared. We have a library full of resources focused on this topic. The presentation I would recommend you start with is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can learn from Captain Moroni to help our loved ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.
His story of how he loved his son through his addiction is powerful and redemptive. You can listen to this presentation in the recovering saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen. Put your information in there, and that will give you fourteen days at no cost. I made it easier for you and put the link in the show notes, or you can go to leadingsaints.org/1four.
Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now for many of you that are brand new, to Leading Saints, it's important that you know that Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization, five zero one c three, dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead, and we do that through content creation. We get so much positive feedback on the podcast, our virtual conferences, the articles on our website. You definitely gotta check it out at leadingsaints.org.
And on their homepage at leadingsaints.org, you can actually find the top six most downloaded episodes to the podcast. So if you're new, like the content, want to jump into some of our most popular episodes, head there after you listened to this episode. Alright. Danny and Emily Deaton. So where does your where's the story begin? Even probably before you two were an entity. Right? Who wants to jump off? For you? You should read you should read the introduction,
like, on our little podcast. She describes is it too scary? No. Is it too much? She can summarize it for us. Well, before we met each other, we both traveled our own crazy roads, which involved teenage pregnancy, divorce, incarceration, drug addiction. And then we decided to just, you know, mix that together and become an eternal family. And, we have three kids now and a cat and a dog and 22 chickens. And, you know, the rest is history. So drug addiction is part of your story as well?
No. Oh, no. Well, it became a part of my story when I met him. Yeah. Not not, physically funny. Yeah. Exactly. She didn't know it was until she fell in love with me. I was really convincing at the beginning. Nice. Great salesman. We do have that life now. You send out that Christmas card and everything looks perfect. It's cute kids. It's a wonderful life, but it didn't come easy. Yeah. So, Danny, maybe just give us a quick synopsis of of your journey, which will put this whole conversation
in the context. Yeah. I would love that. So I won't bore you with my story because that's not why we're here today. We would love to share and provide resources. Yep. I know a lot of people listening in are hungry as to what we can do better to help with some of the challenges out there. But why I'm here, why I speak with authority, and why I'm passionate about this, and the two minute version is I grew up here in Utah, a local boy.
Had a great life. I loved everything. Tended out to high school, super involved and active in everything. Eagle scout, playing instruments, all sorts of sports, loved it. Loved life. I had a lot of great friends. As life progressed, some poor choices were made that led me down a poor path for one reason or another. Got my act together while sleeping on a beach in Hawaii as a young man when I was supposed to be on a mission or going to college.
It dawned on me that I as much as I thought I'd found the life, right? Like, I was missing something, I felt empty. So, I came home at 22 years old, went on a mission. It It was an incredible experience down in Brazil. Came home, had my path laid out in front of me. I knew what I was going to do. I was ready to take advantage of the opportunities.
And again, I'll spare you all the details, but for one reason or another, this was during the opioid epidemic, for those of you who are aware of how that happened. Pain pills were introduced to my life when I was doing everything I was supposed to. I was doing all the right things. After the mission? Yep. After the mission. Going to school, got married, was doing all the things I was supposed to. But But there was a big twist this time.
Taking those filled the void of a lot of things I had at the moment in the name of pain, right? Right. Because there were some nagging injuries and pain. This took that away, but what it filled was a lot of the emotional things I wasn't even aware of. And it made me feel better. It helped me deal with some things I couldn't deal with at the time and I acquired a secret. And so, that continued for a long
time. And that's an important part of this because when I tell the end story, it's a little bit scary and I think it's hard for people to relate to. But there's a progression that gets people to these horrible situations. Every addiction is progressive. For some, it's faster. For some, it's slower, but they always get worse until something intervenes. Well, mine progressed. And if you take my entire addiction of ten years, nine years of it, I was high functioning.
Continue to graduate school, started a business, did all the things right. But the consumption of these medicines increased, the secrecy of them increased, then lies started to happen. Mhmm. And it just compounded to where it got me to a horrible place. I had a marriage that ended. My business started to unravel. It started to manifest itself.
And when those things happened, it went from a very manageable place where I was hiding the secret and still controlling things to where things got ugly and they got ugly quick. So to flash forward through the ugliness, illicit drugs came into play, hardcore drinking came into play, hardcore drug use came to play, buying drugs, selling drugs, doing whatever you had to to survive. It's called the hustle.
And it all came to a head where I wake up in a jail cell covered in my own blood because my cellmate was sick of hearing me moan through the pain I was experiencing from withdrawal. So, decides to start bashing my head on the ground to where I'm bleeding out and I'm looking at a guard who's laughing at me. Wow. It's a low point? It's a low point. Yeah. And I'm in there feeling really out of place because I was
an Eagle Scout. I did have a dad who was my bishop and my father who was my best friend who was a great example. I had all the things. So, here I was. It was very polarizing. And you think that would be the low point, but it wasn't. Because as soon as I got bailed out, it wasn't until my dad and brother both had a dream the same night they were speaking at my funeral and found me clinging for life in the basement of a home in Draper.
And I had a father who walked into that basement in that cold, dark place, and he had gone through a process before this that I didn't know. He had actually been working with a recovery coach in a treatment center that taught him all the things he needed to know. So, he was able to walk into that basement, you know, and it's a crazy story. I was laying in this basement for days on end, shouldn't have been alive. I don't know how long it had been since I had had food and proper hydration even.
And to see this door open up while I'm laying on the floor. Oh, yeah, and I had been thrown through the windshield of the car two days before, busted legs. I'm just there broken, as pathetic as you can be. And walks these two people into this basement, and when they opened that door, this light came in the room. And it was the first time I could even just feel and see light. And here comes my dad and
my brother. This was a humbling experience, But he was able to, like I mentioned with proper help, look down and with the most love and compassion, tell me, if you're ready, we'll walk every step of this with you. If not, I've made peace with God that he can have you. So, of course, I am looking at him and I was so embarrassed and shameful. I was just like making weird sounds, put my head in my hands. I was just broken. So, he actually walked out.
He turned. My father, my best friend turned and walked away. And it wasn't until that happened that I mustered up the courage to just be like, Help. So that's the story and that's where it ended. But what I wanted to share and talk about today is, like, how did I get from that low point to the life that we have today? Yeah. I think a lot of leaders would love to hear that too, you know, and the resources. Emily, anything with your journey? I mean, you
you kinda went through it. Anything else to add that would help for our discussion today? Or I don't I don't think so other than that. You know, when I met Danny, he was a year out from this experience. Mhmm. And still a very broken individual. And so I just think it's really important to remember how much time is required for the atonement to fully take place in someone's life. Yeah. Yes. They
can be sober. Yes. They can be looking towards even have hope for better things in their life and goals for that, but it it takes time to heal. And I it's just been such an a beautiful experience to see even from that one year point, what God can do, how much the atonement can compound year after year when you're consistently walking with the savior. So I'm sure we'll get into that a
little bit more later. Yeah. For sure. When I see or interact with recovering addicts like you, Danny, it's like, man, yeah, I could have witnessed, like, the feeding of the 5,000. I could have seen the savior walk on the seat of Yali, but nothing is more or less miraculous than what Christ can do for a life like you or in all of our lives. Right? Right. And redemption's real and, you know, you can overcome it. Yeah. There's
hope. There's always hope. Yeah. There's and, just for context as well, like, to bring us to present day, you currently run you have a podcast, right? You're Living Proof, which is connected with your organization. Maybe just give us a rundown so that people have that perspective as well. Because we're here today to provide some real legitimate resources, like some actual to dos for all the church leaders out there to be able to utilize these keys, the healing power, the atonement for
more people. Right? It's there are not enough people receiving this and there's some real critical steps is that people are missing as to why that is. So came out of recovery, met her, I had to get life repaired. So, we've gotten to the restaurant business. It was an opportunity that presented itself. I worked like a dog for ten years to try to save some money, to get a house, to build a family.
In the entire time we did it, for some reason, I firmly believed that those who recover loudly can help those who are suffering in silence. So, everywhere I went, I just did it. I'd introduce myself. I wouldn't glamorize anything. I would just explain where I'd been and who I am today. And people were just latching on. How did you do it? Tell us how you did it. Especially when I spoke in church. Maybe one eyebrow raised. But I would go home and people would be knocking at my door, calling,
opening up. And I was like, we've got to change this because they're not even opening up with some of the right people and leaders that are available to them. We could get into a whole discussion as to why. I think those are obvious. It's shameful. It's embarrassing. So people kept wondering, what did you do? How did you do it? How did you do it? And looking back at my recovery, it was very easy to see. There were so many steps in this process that were
necessary. So many people involved, clinical people, countless people, and group therapies. I mean, there was medicine that was needed to be involved, psychiatrists. There were so many steps along the way and I look back and I'm like, I did everything that was required of me, but I would have never and could have never done it without my family learning how. How to influence it, how to encourage it, and sometimes use whatever word you want making sure it
happened. I would have never made it. And as I got further into recovery, those that I met, individuals in long term recovery, I said there's some common themes here. Every one of these had an amazing family behind that eventually learned how to help. How to stop enabling, how to support, how to have boundaries. And that was the magic recipe. That's what was missing. So, we jumped out of the restaurant world head first. I went and got
certified and licensed as an interventionist. It's kind of the licensing to do this line of work. I specifically avoided other paths. Thank goodness there are people out there, like certified therapists that help people from that level. But I needed to be able to say the hard things. I needed to be able to push people to do things. I needed to be able to work outside of the box. So I went and got certified as an interventionist. I did them for years. We were extremely successful.
Most of the families I worked with, it wasn't long until they did difficult things, came together and their loved one got into recovery. And for those who may not know, what is an interventionist and what does that mean? An interventionist comes, unites the family, they put a plan in place for their addicted loved one, then they all come together with unified boundaries. That's basically like this very spiritual and loving way to get someone to do what they need
to do. You need to go to this therapy or this facility or else we need to take a further step back. That's the boundary. Right? Correct. And it's an event. It's definitely an event. That's the key. It's a heroic event. And I did them. I was very successful. What was crazy is as we started doing this in our own community have you ever seen the movie Hitch with Will Smith? Oh, yeah. Sure. People pass along his card. That's what happened. Oh, I see.
It's immediately working with the family and then they'd be like, okay, they would feel comfortable, they'd see the progress and they'd say, Hey, can you come next door to my friends with me? Or, Hey, across the street. So all of a sudden, it just started people passing along and we did this for years. COVID was a huge blessing in our life because it caused everything to shut down. And we went and we figured out how
to pivot. And it was a beautiful way to take a horrendous experience in all of our lives to do something different to where we could get this out in front of people. And this is where this beautiful woman came along and used all of her BYU certifications to do what I couldn't do. Which are the best of the certifications. Yes. That's right. Obviously. Yes. So we literally took our office in our home and compiled hundreds of files of working with families. And
this was before AI. Right? Like, so we had to do the work. Like, we compiled all these families and looked at all these trends and realized there was just these common things with every single one of them. So she helped me put it together and formulate an actual product, which is instructional course videos. And I joke about her being from BOU, but maybe that's the brains that you have to have to actually make it what it is because mine was just a mess of
all this experience. I knew it, but I couldn't quite put it together, and she did in a beautiful way. Yeah. Yeah. Anything you'd add to that all that? Yeah. It was just it was amazing because, honestly, it's like you would see I, as his spouse, could see this is his purpose, and there's no way we're not doing this. And in fact, like, this is definitely God telling us, like, you gotta do this. Whether you like it or
not, you're doing it. And so it was a beautiful experience to transition from a world where I felt actually, like, as nice as it was for Danny to work in the space of recovery, it was also tying his hands in a way because it was an event. The recovery didn't continue. He didn't continue on and on, and he knew that there was a lot of short term success, but not a lot of
long term success. And we wanted to see families not just have this victory in sobriety, but have the victory of long term recovery because I I experienced that with him. Yeah. I knew the difference between somebody who was sober and someone who is healed. Someone who is truly living in recovery.
Yeah. And so that was the goal. That became our goal at that point was how do we take all of this experience and all this knowledge and turn it into a very easy to pallet, easy to understand, relatable course program, full program for all of these families who are like, help, help, help. How do we expand our efforts so that we can help more people? Yeah. And that's that's truly when Living Proof Recovery Services was born and how
it transformed into this full program. Yeah. And So now, I mean, generally speaking in program, you talk about video courses, it can be in person or remotely, but and I think you mentioned before, you record like the the six it's like a six month program type of thing to Correct. So people make a you know, they make an investment, they enroll to the program, Immediately, they're given an assessment with me where we work
through all the logistics, right? Let's get this stuff out of the way quickly, which is like, how do we use insurance? Where do we go? What does it pay for? What to expect? Let's get a plan in place. That's where a lot of people get stuck and it's actually the easiest part. And believe it or not, we are now living in a first time in all of our lives where insurance, even insurance like Medicare, is paying for quality care at a lot of different
facilities. So we take care of that. But yes, a family is given 75 instructional videos broken out into five different courses that walks them through the entire process. There's exercises in there, all the materials they need to be successful. But then we've kind of found the the magic is in these private support groups, which we do Multiple times throughout the day, that's where I spend most of my time is meeting with these families.
Yeah. And to draw a picture of who this is, you know, we've worked with a couple hundred families. 90% of them are members of the LDS church. Most of them either currently have or have had significant callings in the church. There's quite a few bishops, state presidents in the program, also doctors, psychiatrists who are trying to actually finally Because things, again, like when I told my story, things always progress.
Everyone in these families probably should have done something sooner and had they, it might have been an easier path out. But eventually, it gets to a place where they raise their hand like, I need help. Yeah. So I'm curious because with addiction, I mean, someone can be either in the jail cell or in denial, being high functioning or, you know, just out of that coma they were in ready
to change their life. So I guess some church leaders or family members may get confused, like, well, at what point do I reach out to a resource like this? And what comes to mind? The number one principle about addiction for families to understand that I've learned in a decade of working and crying and watching people suffer is the tip of the iceberg. It's taught in our courses and it's a hard one to swallow because it is the facts and it is true, but no one
thinks it pertains to them. And let me explain. So wherever you're at in that spectrum, maybe you just caught someone looking at inappropriate content, known as pornography, or you caught them with an alcohol bottle in their bag. Anytime a family becomes aware of a problem because now they found something discovered or they got something, it is literally the tiny tip of the iceberg.
So, it's really hard because I have to drive this point home and it's not to make people feel worse or to be like, well gosh, you're telling me it's that much worse. It's vital for them to understand this because you aren't overreacting. You aren't the crazy one. You're not being overbearing. Every single person in addiction, regardless of how progressed it's become, is harboring secrets. All of it is secrets.
And if you caught something or discovered or saw something, they got sloppy and messed up. And once somebody owns the fact that, okay, I'm already worried and concerned and this is a tiny fraction of what's going on, then no, we need to do something. And I think if people adhere to that, then all of a sudden they take more action and do what's necessary instead of falling victim to the lies of addiction, which by the way, preys on the faithful people harder than anyone else
to do something about it. Well, and one thing that I think is shocking to most people is that families on average in The United States wait seven years. Wow. Seven years to reach out for professional support if they have someone in their family that's addicted. Mhmm. And as he stated earlier,
addiction's progressive. So if you wait seven years to act like his family did, his family literally waited, you know, eight years before they started getting real serious about, oh, I think there is a problem. You've allowed a monster to continue to overtake someone. Yeah. And it's good to point out, though, everyone along the way tries to do things about it. Right? They're throwing out requests or they're stating things. Some people bury their head in their sand
because they can't talk about it. But other people, they'll try, but it's not. It's usually far down the road, like, seven years, like she described before. Finally, families surrender and say, okay, we need to do something. Well, it's usually when something catastrophic happens. Right. Like, where they're like, oh, oh, the police are involved now. Like, we cannot deny this. Yeah. Because in the that high functioning phase is really difficult. Right? Because, like, well, he's got a job and Yep.
He's paying the bills, I think. And but something's off. Right? So Yep. I mean, in that those phases, that's where you sort of wait for that catastrophe because it's like, I don't know how I've tried to talk to him about it. It's ineffective. Yeah. We can't count on that. Yeah. It's really difficult, right? We just did a podcast on that. The most deadly and dangerous addiction out there is the high functioning one. And it's hard. It's the one that people use the word just right before they say
it. Well, they just, you know, they just have a problem with porn or they just drink a little too much. That's the space that's hardest because a person's sick, they're stuck. And this is also what brings up a subject of the agency thing I have to address. And if you're listening to this, all due respect, we have been victimized as faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ, not recognizing the power of addiction and how it literally removes a person's agency, we always
think that there's this underlying choice. Mhmm. And the best way to help, especially dads, come to terms with this or grips with this. Long ago at some point, this was more of an issue of choices and behavior. It's probably a lot longer than you want to know. So if you rewind back years when your loved one, whether it's your child or your spouse, embarked down this path, then it was a thing of agency. It was a thing of
choice. And let let me make sure I'm following here because some people go to a place of, like, well, he has his agency or Exactly. Well, that's not I mean, this is part of the plan. Right? That's why we came here so I don't need to intervene. Right? That's that's kind of the I come out swinging and I've screamed it from the rooftops for as long as I've done this, that the greatest lie about addiction is that they have to want it for themselves. And we wait for that rock bottom moment,
right? It is that they have to want Now, is that statement true? In order to recover, they will have to want it for themselves. But to get the process started, it will never be the case. And that's why interventions can be effective because they don't organize their own interventions, right? Yeah. Someone or something has to intervene. Now, people step in and we kind of live in this place of chaos where we go through this cycle of some good time and then they fall back, some good time they fall
back, meanwhile, it's always progressing. So is the shame and guilt and despair. But it's if someone doesn't intervene, nothing changes. So, something has to intervene. And far too often right now, the thing that's stepping in more than anything else is death. The second is a judge or incarceration. What we're our mission is to ensure that the third thing, which is the small minority, learns how to intervene as family.
And there's some really important things. We've just briefly tucked on them, but I hope more people start coming to realize they do not have their agency. I wanna read something if you don't mind. Oh, yeah. It's one of my favorite quotes, and it's from Boyd k Packer. And it says, he says, addiction serves the design of the prince of darkness for it disrupts the channel to the holy spirit of truth. Addiction has the capacity to disconnect the human will and nullify
moral agency. Mhmm. And if you truly believe that and understand that, then I think it allows you to have a different mindset Yeah. When you look at your loved one. And you can see they aren't they aren't choosing this anymore. Yeah. This is they are being controlled by this, and the only thing that I can do is to use my own agency Mhmm. And act for them until they can act for themselves. Yeah. And this way because we often frame agency in the context of, like, it's a gift. Like, god gave us a
gift of agency. And and then it's not so much that this person is using their agency. It's more that they've lost the agency because they're under the the power control of this drug. That doesn't remove accountability by any means. That's, I think, where people get stuck. They think, oh, if I remove agency, I remove accountability. But, no, this is we have to stop that because that's the adversary's goal
is to remove agency. And if they can do it through a pill or through a void in their heart and pornography or whatever it is, like, he will find a way to remove that agency. And that that's where we should feel empowered to intervene. Yeah. Well, it's like he said, that's where so many families get stuck is they're just like, well, sir sir, agency, I can't do anything and they're gonna have to decide and what can I do? And it's like, oh, you can do so much. Yeah.
You still have your agency. That's that's what's so great. Yeah. That's interesting. You can make choices and decisions and take action that will deeply impact their choices. Well, the it's interesting is the trademark part of our program is the preparation of a gift. So the traditional route for a long time has been interventions. And again, I did those really good at them. I had a lot of success. But this is a different approach that's much more effective. The hard part is a family has to
invest in it. A family has to commit to doing it. But what they're doing is much more than an intervention. It's seeking help for themselves to learn about this disease. What it does to most families immediately is it removes the uniqueness. We all think that everything is true, but not so much for us. Mhmm. So, it removes that uniqueness. And then what they do is they learn about the what the path forward for their loved one looks like in-depth and what their role is and isn't
in that. Then they look at resources and what are available. They do all of this work and they present an intervention in the form of boundaries and this is what changes because every family that tries to do this alone, they cave or they miss the mark. And what do you what do you mean do it alone? Like without professional help? Correct. Okay. Yeah. And it's a traditional route a lot of us have gone. A family finally gets to a boiling port and they're like, you need
to go talk to the bishop. To every bishop listening out there, my heart aches for you because you are there are fiery darts coming at you in every direction. It's a lot. I can only imagine. I specialize in one. But to have people coming at you from mental health, from depression, from marital problems, from financial problems to addictions, it's a lot to handle. People are throwing their sick individual at at the bishop expecting him to perform miracles.
He holds keys. That's our whole goal. Our whole program goal is to empower families and get individuals to have a leg to stand on, to walk into his office, and basically demand him to utilize the keys he has to help them for seek forgiveness. Instead, we're throwing him in there to be like, hey. We have a problem, and we know our secret's safe with you. So can you, like, figure out what to do? No. We're missing some critical steps in
between. So our program prepares this gift and allows families to actually look and say, you know what? We have done it. We're prepared. We have a place to go. We know what our role is. Now we're going to put these hard boundaries in place. And that's the big kicker, which we need to address today because that's where a lot of institutions like our church and almost any church or business or establishment kind of gets to a point where like, oh, I don't know if I
can do that. Because sometimes those boundaries mean, I'm sorry, son. I can no longer have you doing drugs in my basement. It's putting all of us at risk. We understand that. And I love you so much that I'm going to actually not allow that in the home. However, when you're ready, all you have to do is say, Okay. Help. And as a family, we know what that looks like. And that's the process more people need to get to, but in order to do that, it requires families going through a process themselves.
And that's the kicker about addiction that's so unfair. Someone else made some poor choices and over time, they got really sick and now those around them have to learn about it? Well, that's what it is. And if we want to help a lot more people, we were talking before we started recording today, you can go to the Department of Health and Human Services and look the data up yourself. Those institutions are always like two years behind. Anything in like the medical industry, behavioral health.
So two years ago, they discovered that there were 46,000,000 people known to have addiction substance use disorder. Like in the country? Yeah. Mhmm. And what's hilarious is all they're known. These are documented by hospital or like a policeman or, you know, a judge where most addictions lie in secrecy. So that number is actually probably an alarming number. Yeah. Even more alarming because that is an alarming number. Yeah. It's way worse than that. Yeah.
Ninety four percent of those people, of the forty six million they knew of, never ever got the professional help they needed. And you wanna know why? Yeah. They do not feel that they need it. Like, I got this. Yeah. You know, I today was tough, but Yeah. Next week looks good. I'll be I'll be better. Right? So they no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No
all the resources and tools we have. We all know what the end goal is. The end goal is the atonement of Jesus Christ. And from personal experience, I want you to know that it was a process for me to ever get to a point where I thought that was even possible in my life. So if we're, we're throwing a sick person and here's the hard pill to swallow your loved one, whether it's pornography, alcohol, prescription medications,
it's not the substance. It's the problem. It's all the underlying issues and the trauma that they've occurred during the process from lying, cheating, stealing, they'd have them really sick. So to throw a person all the way to that heroic event in our life of feeling that forgiveness, we've got to implement the first few steps to get them there. And that's where we're
missing the mark. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, and I I I also feel like when you're asking families, and he kinda touched on this, this is why so many fail when they attempt this without support. When you're asking somebody to put into place a hard boundary with their loved one, typically I mean, for sure in the LDS culture, you instantly feel like you're doing the wrong thing because it's not Christ like. Like, you're not being Christ like when you're telling them, like, you can't keep staying here or I
won't help you. That feels like the opposite of love or anything that the savior would want you to do. Like, you're supposed to turn the other cheek. You're supposed to all the so it's very confusing. And I again, it's it's where I feel like Satan really got cunning because he puts families in
these situations where they cannot win. Mhmm. They will either continue to enable or they will feel guilty and, like, they're doing the wrong thing if they hold a boundary so much so that they will fold, and they won't ever actually hold it. Yeah. And I'm I'm you know, I love that your approach with you're you're looking at this not as an individual problem, but this is the
whole family, right? And I almost would expand that to these are relationships that are in the life of this person and speaking in a church leadership context, sometimes that bishop relationship is part of that where, you know, I remember as a bishop that, you know, removing a temple recommend from somebody struggling with pornography. And he emailed me that week and he said, wow. Like, thank you. Because I have had so many leaders that, like, encouraged me
to go to the temple. Right? Sure. But what I realized I needed once you took that was this is actually what I needed was sort of this this strong boundary. You didn't use those words, but and this is tricky because I'm not trying to say be prescriptive to everybody who shares anything got to rip their temple or recommend away. Like, obviously, you're really prayerful about it
and considering all all things. But there's a lot of spiritual boundaries that need to need to be put in place that that the church leader has the keys to do so, and that that's part of it, right, as you're shepherding them towards more professional help. Right? Exactly. Well, it's hard because you're only getting partial truths, right? No one goes in and gives the whole story. They just give enough.
Part of recovery for people, no matter how it begins, and it's usually something else that makes you start the process, is learning how to be truthful with yourself and with other people.
And that's why I always it's a hard one to say, but if you have a loved one whose addiction has progressed to a point where something needs to be done about it and it's now undeniable, I'm really sorry to say that you as a mother or father, as qualified and capable as you are, are not the right person to help them right now. That bishop who holds unique and special keys, who is the salt of the earth, who has the biggest heart of anyone in your life, is not the person to help them
right now. They need to be around broken people. They need to be in structured environments. They need to have accountability. They need to be stripped down. They need to be around other people like them. And it seems really hard. Again, it goes into this whole thing. It's that, I don't know. That doesn't really feel safe or good. If you actually knew how sick they were, all of it would make sense. But they need to be around other people, take certain steps to where you can actually
be the greatest benefit in their life. Their church leaders can be the greatest benefit in their life. So, the elephant in the room is like, okay, okay. If that's the case, we'll do that. But how do we get them to do that? That's where a family has to step in and learn how to enforce certain boundaries. And that is all predicated on preparing a gift and knowing what that long term picture looks like. So I think if I could communicate one thing is we've got to stop trying to
do this on our own. We're trying to be the person that's gonna help this person overcome. Right? Because as parents, we, you know, raise these kids and we're like, we wanna be everything for them. As a church leader, I wanna have all the answers and everybody leaves my office feeling like, finally, I'm what what relief. Right? But this and it's all
about roles. Right? Because the therapist, the intervention the interventionalist also doesn't want to go home and be their mom the rest of their life or their dad. Like, everybody has their role, and we just need to understand whose role is most important at this stage. Yeah. What's the And a lot of times, you know, when you're in the thick of it, that's where that professional help
is. Well, that's a shout out to our program because when, you know, people invest and enroll in our program, there's long term support. Families are given at least a minimum of six months intensive support. They can continue that if they want to at that point. Yeah. That's great. But it's every step. It's like, okay, how do we get them in there? Okay, sweet. They're in there. Now, what do
we do? A big part of this that families realize once they're in the program is they get to experience recovery themselves. So, once they get the sick person the help they need, the whole family can notice how they've been affected and heal themselves. That's the magic. I mean It's a fish tank. It's a fish tank. Everyone that has a loved one stuck in addiction, it's like having a dirty fish tank and this fish that's just about to drown. We're so good at pulling this fish out
of the tank. We go over here. We clean them all off. And then we put the fish right back where it was. Again, hard pill to swallow. Family is like, no. We're good. We're good. The hard truths in my family will be the first one to tell you as amazing as they were because they were they were just I mean, they're the all star humans. My addiction lied, manipulated, abused, and affected every one of them over time. So, it did dirty our fish tank.
And none of them could see it because it happened slowly over time. All of this is madness. Trying to get someone to do what they're unwilling to do is insane. Getting families to come realize they have to do some work in order to have any hope and success with this is crazy. But it's actually one of the most beautiful ways to come to realize the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It's being stripped down and humbled in a way not a lot
of other things can. And for people out there who don't give addiction the credit it deserves, it is the number one fatal illness on the planet destroying more families and homes than anything else. Probably any other three things combined. And it's the only fatal illness on the planet where the sick person is going to fight you to stay sick. And the only fatal illness on the planet where you and your spouse may differ about what to do. Where everyone has a different opinion on maybe
should we do anything? Oh, no. Maybe that's too much. Oh, where if it's any other fatal illness, there's one path forward. So it is an opportunity at the end of the day to bring your family in a together in a way that nothing else will. Yeah. Mhmm. Anything you'd add, Emily? Oh, I just I was just thinking about boundaries and how, like, we, as an LDS culture, see boundaries. And I think it's interesting if you really, really think about the way heavenly
father feels about boundaries. He really values them. Mhmm. Sure. He truly holds his boundaries. And so when it's like when we are tempted to feel unChrist like or to feel like, oh, I might be jumping the gun. Like, I probably shouldn't be so overwhelming about this particular situation. We have to remember how what's our example? Where can we see God holding boundaries with us? And I mean, I'm like, go to the temple and you'll see it really, really clearly all over and over again.
His love is always extended. His arms are always open. The savior's atonement is always there for us. His mercy will never end. Yeah. However, there's some rules of engagement. Yeah. He modeled it for us. Yeah. And I I met with some stake leaders recently and they, they were just like really desperate for some solutions. Like, they were like business guys. Like, they understood the spiritual side, but like, we want to be more successful. We want to help more people. So how do we
do it? And so as you start going through the process, they're like, what's the hinge point? What's the hinge point like? And I said, yeah, it always gets to a little sticky hinge point. Sometimes that means I've done everything I could, I know I have, and it requires a separation maybe from a spouse to clearly get through to them or a child being removed from your home who's putting
everyone in danger. Mhmm. That's the part where you can see from if you are a church leader, because we don't say or we feel like we can't say certain things even when everyone understands that that's the situation. Well, and it's not their role. No. And so I told him, this is the sticking point. And one of the leaders was like, yeah, I can see that. Like, we can't we can't encourage people to to do that with their loved one. And then the other
one stands up. I don't know if I should say his name, but an individual that many people would know and he was very emotional and he said, Addiction has weaponized our faith in a very terrible way because he said, God gave us what you were just saying. God gave us a clear example of what boundaries look like. But the addiction over time has worn us all down that we don't see it the same. And we are unable to put those boundaries. Now, the reality is we do certain
things in our life. We all know that we remove ourselves from God. It's even a temple recommend. You do certain things. You don't get to go into his house, But we, for some reason, justify or use excuses or rationalize to think it's any different with addiction. Now, it all makes sense when you hear it. But the hard part is when it's someone you love and someone you care about or someone that you're governing over, love gets in the way.
And we all end up acting out of character doing any things we shouldn't, which is why we've created our program. And people inside of our church, inside of our families, we've got to stop doing this on our own and utilize professionals, utilize the programs out there to get us just on the first few steps to where what all the rest of what we believe and know can even be possible. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of leaders that,
like, cognitively, they understand that. But sometimes they're you know, know, I remember being the leader while I'm like, well, I don't know how to handle this, so why don't you go get some therapy? And we'd sit in therapy and, like, nothing would change. I'm like, I don't know. Okay. What's next? You know, so how do you know when, you know, we're we're maybe shepherding them towards a professional that should be helpful, but sometimes they're not,
right? I mean, it's it varies. No. And here's probably a raw example, and if you have to cut this out or edit it out, that's fine. If a young man comes in who's vaping, consuming porn, and someone is talking to him about prayer, about forgiveness, about temple, your worlds are completely disconnected.
What you are saying is true and what you are saying makes sense and what you are saying is healing, but to understand where they are at every young man that comes in and let's just here is that word just again let's say it is just pornography. This is not a young man who has been looking at a two dimensional image on a piece of paper like we did when we were younger. What they're consuming, the content they're seeing, it is horrendous. And so, there's two worlds that are so
far apart. So, it's really hard because we want to give them these blessings. We want to tell them these things. But it almost hurts them because it's so disconnected. We've got to get them to take a few steps forward. And I think that makes sense, right? Like, maybe recommend that they go to support groups, ARP groups. By the way, the church is awesome. Let me give a little shout out. The world knows that the largest organization against addiction is
Alcoholics Anonymous, AA. It's the biggest. The one that's on their coattails chasing them down is the church. Yeah. It's insane how many meetings they have. It's amazing. But to get a young man to do that sounds easy. Okay. That makes sense. Have him go to some support groups. Talk to other guys that are dealing with this. Kind of work through those first initial steps so that maybe the principles of the gospel I'm talking about are a little closer in proximity that he can
understand them. But the hard part is how do we get them to do it? Again, we need their family to learn how to put boundaries and you use whatever word you want. Sometimes use the word force. I don't like that word, but we require. We're recommending. We're encouraging. Whatever we have to do, a family has got to learn how to do it. And if a family doesn't get help, this is where it comes full circle, then what you're doing is throwing out requests to a person and requests don't ever work.
A family needs to learn. A boundary is what we need to feel safe, what we need in order to continue helping and supporting you. And if that requires them doing certain things, that's different. Yeah. So if I'm hearing it right, like one of those early stages isn't necessarily to prescribe them with do this, do this, do this, but more of like gauging their support system or their family structure. Because I remember some people do come in like, Hey, can you just not tell my
wife or my spouse about this? Or, Let's just get this handled. Right? And so that's sort of the first hurdle. Like, No, no, we're you don't survive or succeed unless that family support is there and we clean the fish tank. Right. Yeah. And they've got to. And it's bringing the family. And then the family needs resources and tools. And that's what's interesting. For the record, like, we live in Utah. There is more facilities to help people stuck in addiction than any other state in the country.
It's amazing. We utilize the mountains, the community, and they always say the Mormons, right? And that's why they bring people from all over the world and the country here. It's a great marketing place for rehabs. But there's a lot of incredible programs to help these sick individuals and for the first time ever in our life, insurance is paying for it. So if you're worried about that, that's easy and we can help you with that
or most people can. But there's a huge gap in the people who actually go and get this help. And for the families, the world's neglected the family. It's really hard. We don't have a lot to compare our business model to with others because there really is nothing out there. There's a handful of facilities in Utah that provide a weekly family meeting,
just kind of like an informal meeting. But there aren't any intensive programs that hold a family's hand through this whole process that teach them, that call them out, that help them to heal, that show them the way every step of the way. And that's what we're really hoping to bridge the gap and allow people more people to get the help they need.
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that it's not necessarily a measuring stick you put on this therapist or that therapist, but this is something that has to be approached holistically with the entire family. And so if you're sending them to a resource, you're just gonna give them some therapy in a private room, you know, talk therapy and, you know, hopefully they'll come back next week and they'll be better or improved.
That will probably not work out. It's gotta be how are we gonna involve everybody here and find a resource that takes that into account? Yeah. Well, I love that you brought up therapy because we were I don't know. It was a few episodes ago. We talked specifically about therapy and it's like, you don't ever ever you should stop paying for therapy for someone in active addiction. It's just not effective. Yeah. It's just not.
It's not going to get progress. Is is there a really awesome time and place for therapy? Yes. He went through a lot. We went through a lot. Yeah. We all need a great therapist, but they're not gonna move the needle. Yeah. You know? And that I actually believe is the most common feedback that we get from people that have enrolled in our program is like, oh, I I was in therapy for ten years, and my therapist was awesome. But, like, they can never really tell me how to do this.
Now I know actually how. Like, I always knew what a boundary was. I just didn't know how to hold one. Yeah. Right? And so it's just like this new way of of seeing the problem and approaching it tactically with action instead of like, oh, yeah. Just like kinda go talk about it, learn about it, be curious about it. That's good. I mean, again, there is a time and a place for that. Yeah. I don't wanna It's just stuff For sure. Probably six or seven. It's just
not so much. It's similar. Just like the you talk about, like, the bishop's office where it's like, if someone comes into the bishop's office high and you're like, let's talk about the five steps of repentance. Yeah. You're like, we're not even close to that. So you know that conversation? And so recognizing that we're not saying therapy is awful, never do it. But it's like Therapy is awesome. It's part of the recipe. Yeah, for sure. But there's a
phase to this. There's five or six steps before that. Yeah. The mantra to our business and to my life is our secrets keep us sick. And it's it holds true as much with the person that's in addiction as it does with the whole family. Mhmm. The goal isn't here is to jump on your Facebook page and talk about your son, the alcoholic. But it is for us to start coming together and addressing things and talking about things. We're not glorifying
them. But when families hold these as a secret from other people in their community, safe people like your ward members, church leaders. It just builds. It's where Satan's playground is, is in these places of secrecy. So we have to start talking about things. We have to be open about things. But most of all, people got to start reaching out to professionals and stop thinking that they're going to
somehow handle this in house. One of the most transformative things that I when I work with families is when their prayer changes. Moms who have literally worn their knee out and I can see all their faces. I spoke to one today. When they stop praying for a miracle that their loved one will change And they change their prayer to, please help me to have the strength to do what's necessary because I'm scared. And again, it's the unfair part of addiction.
I know someone made bad choices and put all of you in this situation, But that's the way out. The key out is when a family starts to pray that they have the courage to do the difficult things that seem un Christlike that seem hard. Just today, an hour before we came, I'm in a group with a dozen parents, amazing people, all members of the church, successful individuals and a mother talking. Now, they've been in the program for months and they've gone through
it. They've presented the gift to their child. They've all the resources. They've healed. They've cleaned their fish tank who had to remove the car they were providing for their son down in Provo where he's been living. Now, this is an extremely, like, brilliant college graduate whose addictions progressed to a terrible place, who's removing this vehicle. They live in a different state knowing very well that that means here in this cold February month, he has nowhere to live. Yeah, it's tough.
So, to ask a mother to do that on her own, it's not possible. Never has been. Even someone who is in a program with all the support, learned, has the tools, provided solutions, has learned to speak to the disease of addiction. They're still put in those terrible situations, but she's doing it. And she's doing it with a full heart, knowing that all he has to do is say help. She's already started the process. She's on the path. They've cleaned the fish tank.
That doesn't guarantee anything, but I'll tell you what, when families start to buy into this, when they start to invest the time and energy they need to understanding and putting a plan in place and getting themselves help, we are going to take care of half the addictions that are out there. Instead, what we are still doing and everyone listening, we still fall victim to praying for miracles, to going, putting their name in the prayer room, doing all these things. God is
anxiously waiting for them too. But someone has to intervene. And maybe that person is just you, so you've got to start praying for the strength to do that. We've got to stop putting our church leaders in as the first step. There's different situations where a % that's the route to go. But in these situations, couldn't he be step three or four? After they've worked through and started to learn to be honest and accountable to come to give someone the truth and ask for forgiveness
instead of like, here's my problem. Don't tell anyone. What should I do? We've got to do better. And everyone wants to. They're just wondering how. Yeah. And the lovely If you're a bishop, a stake president, reach out. We've got some stuff to talk about. Yeah, for sure. And that's it. You know, the principle that comes to mind, which is gospel principle, but also a recovery principle is that surrender. You have to get to a place of saying, you get it all. Right? And that's what
god has us to do. We he wants us to get to a place of saying, your life or my life is your life. Yeah. And whatever you need me to do, right, whether it's drugs are involved or addictions involved or not, like, that's we need to get to a place to surrender. And that's what's really hard about it. It is. When I told you the story at the beginning, for a father like mine to be able to say that and to be able to walk away required his own surrender. And you
know how he got there? Professional help, a plan in place that he'd communicated this plan to me over and over and actually walking outside and speaking out loud to God saying, you know what? I've done it. I've done everything. And he knew he had. And to say, if you need him more than I do, you can have him. That was his surrender. And I'm very grateful to this day that he went through that process to surrender so that he had the strength to do what he needed for me to have the same.
Yeah. It's powerful. Yeah. Powerful. Any other point principle before we wrap up that we wanna make sure we hit? We end our podcast with the serenity prayer for families. So don't mind if I say it? Yeah. And then you can you can wrap up. It's God grant me the serenity to accept that I cannot change other people, the courage to change the person that I can, and the wisdom to know that it is me. Mhmm. Powerful. It's powerful.
If people wanna obviously, they can subscribe to the podcast wherever they're listening to this one. Yeah. The Your Living Proof podcast. Our website is yourlivingproof.com. And so it's Y0UR, yourlivingproof Com. Same on our Instagram and Facebook handle. They can reach out. We're happy to come speak to stake church leaders, to do parent nights, to do whatever we
can to help people better understand this. But for those that are listening in because I wish I couldn't say this with such confidence it is far too many families that have the secret in their home and no one else knows and it's time to do something about it. Yeah. And this is I want to clarify, is this like it's not just a local option like anybody in the world that can power the internet, right? Yep. Yeah. Our community is
amazing. It's a powerful community and a lot, you know, it's all over the country, but it's like a really stronghold in like Utah, Arizona, Southern California. It's just kind of some strongholds where the church is, but it's people from anywhere. Anywhere that you're listening, there's an incredible amount of resources and tools to help you immediately change the outcome that you're dealing with right now. Cool. Last question I have and we'll start with you, Emily,
then you can finish this. If you're in a room full of church leaders, what final encouragement would you give them around this topic? Oh, I would say you have so much power to help and it's not within yourself. You know? I always tell people your child or your husband has a savior and it
isn't you. And I think it's really empowering as a someone in church leadership to say the same thing to yourself and to help somebody make those steps forward means not believing that you are the resource for their their healing or their trauma in that moment, but that God has allowed so many people with wonderful skill sets to provide resources for people to take next steps forward. And,
you know, we are one of those. And so use the people around you so that, you don't have to bear the burden all by yourself. Awesome. Danny, what final encouragement would you have for me personally? Join me in my efforts to make every other Sunday exactly what happens multiple times a week throughout the week in the Relief Society rooms around churches, and that's to have a recovery meeting a second hour. We need it. Love it. We had a YSA group. We do Sunday school with them.
We kind of approach it that way, and it's the most powerful thing. Because inside these churches that we all visit on Sunday, there's another meeting that happens multiple times. Doing the scary things. Doing the hard things in order to have a better outcome. And I think if you're someone who's spiritually sound, clear of mind, who can see the issue of what it is, We've got to enforce, encourage, do whatever is necessary for families to unite, to put boundaries in place, and
give their loved one a chance. It's really hard though. And it's I I know that sometimes people feel like they're handcuffed to what they can and can't do. But I think if you start to speak truth and stop harboring these secrets and expose them in a Reverend way and encourage families to get themselves help, we're going to see transformations and more people will be walking into your office instead of here's my problem. What should I do? Here's the problem that I've had.
Here's what I've done the last little bit, and here's what I need from you. That's how it should be. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. You can either leave a comment on the, post related to this episode at leadingsaints.org, or go to leadingsaints.org/contact
and send us your perspective or questions. If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to leadingsaints.org/contact and share with us the information there. And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.
Quick reminder, go watch Joseph Granny's presentation on helping loved ones overcome addiction by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.